Madden

[matty_f]

Did everything he could to ensure Celtic got a point there.

[one day maybe...]

Nice of Bobby Madden to help Celtic out.. Never a pen and a foul on Mackie at the free kick but he allows Celtic to take it again

[Keith_M]

Celtc's MOTM today.

[ancient hibee]

Should have given us a foul as the free kick had been taken,.

[bigwheel]

Matty - Hanlon did more than him for that last goal. Lack of composure cost us, imo not the ref ...

[jeffers]

We should have had a penalty first half but not convinced he had a good view, it was two dreadful bits of defending that cost us two points today not Madden.

[James70]

Scottish football is corrupt. Always has been, always will be. Decisions will always go the way of the bigot brothers. Four bookings for us today, none for them, penalty for them and nothing for us.

[Barney McGrew]

It wasn’t a penalty for them, it was the softest of free kicks for their equaliser and it’s debatable whether it should have been a foul to Hibs in the box for their second too.

The usual level of incompetency you expect from him.

[Hiber-nation]

Ajer's handball in the first half was far more a pen than the one he gave. Still no excuses though, Celtic were awful

[chasitup]

Should have given us a foul as the free kick had been taken,.
I was going to say the same thing, the initial free kick had been taken before he blew for the retake.

[ac1]

Could not wait to give them a penaly - laughable

[we are hibs]

The same joker who missed a blatant penalty in the semi for us despite him being 5 yards away from it



Far too many west coast referees in the top flight. Its actually a disgrace. Is there a single ref from outside the west of Scotland who referees top flight games? If all them were from the east you can bet there would be enquires and media outrage.

[Hibee Mac]

The only laughable thing was giving them 4 mins added on, but that didn't cost us.

Blaming the ref today is deflecting and nothing more, the players should be taking 100% responsibility for that today. They bottled it, simple.

[hibbysam]

We should have had a penalty first half but not convinced he had a good view, it was two dreadful bits of defending that cost us two points today not Madden.

Not really true though, if he gives the foul like he should’ve then the defending doesn’t matter as it doesn’t happen.

[Wee Effen Bee]

Did everything he could to ensure Celtic got a point there.

Ajer hits the ball with his hand (twice I think) when blocking a shot/cross - nowt! They get a penalty when a man, standing beside McGinn, scuffs it against McGinn’s arm as he is trying to get it out of the way?

[Mon Dieu4]

Not really true though, if he gives the foul like he should’ve then the defending doesn’t matter as it doesn’t happen.

I agree, how dare McGinn not realise the ball was going to pinball off his arm from a yard away, he needs emptied now

[wookie70]

Should have given us a foul as the free kick had been taken,. It hadn't

[SouthMoroccoStu]

Madden is a cheating ****
Poor defending or not
Never a penalty
Hibs should have had a free kick for the foul on Mackie from the Celtic freekick

[hibbysam]

It hadn't

It had. Madden blew up when the ball was in the air, therefore the free kick had been taken.

[ancient hibee]

It hadn't
it had.

[wookie70]

It had. Madden blew up when the ball was in the air, therefore the free kick had been taken. It isn't when he blows the whistle it is when the offence takes place. Mackie is fouled then the free kick is taken. I'm more annoyed at the blatant foul when they did equalise where Duffy takes out two of our players who looked like they would clear the cross easily

[hibbysam]

It isn't when he blows the whistle it is when the offence takes place. Mackie is fouled then the free kick is taken. I'm more annoyed at the blatant foul when they did equalise where Duffy takes out two of our players who looked like they would clear the cross easily

Of course it is, once the free kick is taken then any stoppage of play is either a free kick or a drop ball. You can’t go back and retake the free kick when he had allowed it to be taken.

[Callum_62]

Just seen the pen for the first time.... Looks really really soft

Anyone any footage of the equaliser?

I seen Hanlon sclaffed the clearance but what's the foul we are claiming or retaken fk?

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[CMurdoch]

The Donald Trump thread of deflection.
I wasn't aware of Madden forcing Gray to remove his brain before challenging the guy from the back
We needlessly lost both goals to a toothless Celtic

[hibbysam]

Just seen the pen for the first time.... Looks really really soft

Anyone any footage of the equaliser?

I seen Hanlon sclaffed the clearance but what's the foul we are claiming or retaken fk?

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

It was a foul, and a daft one at that, boys in the corner and Gray just barges into him, total brainfart. It still shouldn’t have been retaken though.

[JJP]

As soon as he blew for the penalty for us I thought we better score this because the referee will definitely even things up and give Celtic one later in the game. So predictable.

[wookie70]

Of course it is, once the free kick is taken then any stoppage of play is either a free kick or a drop ball. You can’t go back and retake the free kick when he had allowed it to be taken.

From my view Mackie is fouled and just after that the ball is struck in from the free kick. Therefore the ball was not in play when the offence took place. When he blows his whistle doesn't really count

[matty_f]

The Donald Trump thread of deflection.
I wasn't aware of Madden forcing Gray to remove his brain before challenging the guy from the back
We needlessly lost both goals to a toothless Celtic

No but did David Gray give Celtic a nonsense penalty while not awarding Hibs one for a similar incident?

[Callum_62]

No but did David Gray give Celtic a nonsense penalty while not awarding Hibs one for a similar incident?To be fair it is a nonsense pen for me

https://twitter.com/Freddie_23_23/status/1330188598650564615?s=19

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[hibbysam]

From my view Mackie is fouled and just after that the ball is struck in from the free kick. Therefore the ball was not in play when the offence took place. When he blows his whistle doesn't really count

Of course it counts, when he blows his whistle is when he stops the game. If the game is stopped and the ball is in play then there is only two ways to restart the game, either via a drop ball or via a free kick/penalty. Unless you know of a rule that says otherwise.

[Chorley Hibee]

I'm also trying to understand how the Celtic player (unsure who it was) avoided a yellow card when they deliberately took Nisbet out the game, just as he was running on to a ball over the top in the second half.

[Itsnoteasy]

I'm also trying to understand how the Celtic player (unsure who it was) avoided a yellow card when they deliberately took Nisbet out the game, just as he was running on to a ball over the top in the second half.

Bitton

[Centre Hawf]

Personally felt it was a penalty against us and while it may have been a foul if the ball was in play I’m going to play devils advocate and say its hard to say if he blew the whistle before or after it was played.

For me we threw that game away with two sloppy clearances. Madden doesn’t enter my realm of thought on today.

[wookie70]

Of course it counts, when he blows his whistle is when he stops the game. If the game is stopped and the ball is in play then there is only two ways to restart the game, either via a drop ball or via a free kick/penalty. Unless you know of a rule that says otherwise. How can a referee blow his whistle simultaneously with an offence taking place unless you want Mystic Meg refereeing.

The whistle always follows the offence. The ball is not in play until the free kick is taken, the offence happened before the free kick is taken. I watched it carefully in the replay so am fairly sure that is the case and it is much like the jostling that takes place before a corner where the ref stops the corner and has a word with the players.
Here is the rule that matters, my bold. If the free kick had been taken then Mackie is fouled then it is a foul to Hibs. I don't think it had though so Madden got it right but whistled late, perhaps because the assistant saw it

A kick-off starts both halves of a match, both halves of extra time and restarts play after a goal has been scored. Free kicks (direct or indirect), penalty kicks, throw-ins, goal kicks and corner kicks are other restarts (see Laws 13 – 17). A dropped ball is the restart when the referee stops play and the Law does not require one of the above restarts.

If an offence occurs when the ball is not in play this does not change how play is restarted.

[CMurdoch]

No but did David Gray give Celtic a nonsense penalty while not awarding Hibs one for a similar incident?

Can only assume he didn't see the Ajer one in the first half.
Felt sorry for McGinn. It is a ridiculous rule.
Another example was the penalty given against Vigurs of Ross County a couple of weeks ago.
In both cases the ball plays the defender not the other way round and in both cases the referee can't miss the handball. As I said it is a ridiculous interpretation of the rule.

[wookie70]

Can only assume he didn't see the Ajer one in the first half.
Felt sorry for McGinn. It is a ridiculous rule.
Another example was the penalty given against Vigurs of Ross County a couple of weeks ago.
In both cases the ball plays the defender not the other way round and in both cases the referee can't miss the handball. As I said it is a ridiculous interpretation of the rule.
probably the right interpretation but a ridiculous rule

[pedroorange1875]

probably the right interpretation but a ridiculous rule

Correct, the right interpretation, just not when it happens to Hibs. Thats the big problem

[davhibby]

Correct, the right interpretation, just not when it happens to Hibs. Thats the big problem

It’s not the right interpretation when there’s one that’s very similar against Ajer in the same game that’s not given. Either both are penalties or neither are

[pedroorange1875]

It’s not the right interpretation when there’s one that’s very similar against Ajer in the same game that’s not given. Either both are penalties or neither are

Ehh, thats my point

[NC1875]

It’s not the right interpretation when there’s one that’s very similar against Ajer in the same game that’s not given. Either both are penalties or neither are

Exactly. It’s the inconsistency that is the problem. But we all know why the Celtic one was given and ours wasn’t. Disgraceful

[lord bunberry]

If Celtic get a penalty for handball, why didn’t we get a penalty in the first half?

[CMurdoch]

Exactly. It’s the inconsistency that is the problem. But we all know why the Celtic one was given and ours wasn’t. Disgraceful

Yes we do. It was because Scottish football can't afford VAR yet

[Carheenlea]

If Celtic get a penalty for handball, why didn’t we get a penalty in the first half?

I think you know the answer.

[Real Emerald]

If Celtic get a penalty for handball, why didn’t we get a penalty in the first half?

I wonder what the BBC pundits say about it.
1. They won’t show the one we didn’t get.
2. The Celtic one was a penalty under today’s rules.

Oh and Hearts were unlucky on Friday.

[davhibby]

Yes we do. It was because Scottish football can't afford VAR yet

You’d have to be crazy to think VAR would change either of those decisions

[PaulSmith]

From my view Mackie is fouled and just after that the ball is struck in from the free kick. Therefore the ball was not in play when the offence took place. When he blows his whistle doesn't really count

Of course it matters!


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[Malthibby]

Madden is a cheating ****
Poor defending or not
Never a penalty
Hibs should have had a free kick for the foul on Mackie from the Celtic freekick

All true but we would have lost neither if Ryan & Paul hadn't both panicked and slashed clearances
that didn't get out the box.
Still, given how much more money the Infirm have than he rest of us, we have picked up 2:2s against both of them at ER.
That's not too shabby.
GG

[CMurdoch]

probably the right interpretation but a ridiculous rule

I meant the modern interpretation of the rule relating to a penalty for handling the ball in the box.
It was a rule of the game to prevent defenders handling the ball to stop the attacking team.
The modern day interpretation of that has grown to include when the ball plays the defender as it did McGinn today where the ball landed on his arm. Nothing he can do about it and he doesn't stop a goal or prevent a Celtic player getting to the ball. It's just revisionism and distortion of the rules of the game.

[wookie70]

Of course it matters!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Why, that isn't what starts play.

[CMurdoch]

You’d have to be crazy to think VAR would change either of those decisions

You would have to be paranoid to think it wouldn't.

[davhibby]

You would have to be paranoid to think it wouldn't.

It’s the same people that would be in charge of making the decisions, also looking at how badly England has done with it I wouldn’t have any confidence in VAR making a difference at all

[Eyrie]

Yes we do. It was because Scottish football can't afford VAR yet

You mean the Ugly Sisters can't afford VAR because it would prevent them being favoured.

Either we'd have got a penalty in the first half for Ajer or they wouldn't have been gifted theirs in the second half. What decisions would Madden have given if the two incidents were reversed?

[DickieDastardly]

The Donald Trump thread of deflection.
I wasn't aware of Madden forcing Gray to remove his brain before challenging the guy from the back
We needlessly lost both goals to a toothless Celtic
Agreed, two goals up in the closing stages but never felt confident we would hold out. Two defensive gaffs by each centre half cost us.

[A Hi-Bee]

He is just another **** in a long line of cheating ***** from the same place, all sanctioned by the SFA.
****in bawbag that he is.:aok:

[RoYO!]

The argument falls down a little bit when you consider he gave us a pen to go one up.. boyle steps in front of brown ensuring a collision. Not complaining!

With the number of soft hand ball decisions given by VAR I wasnt surprised to see it given. The one in the first half looked likely too imo. No real protest for it tho and cliff and tam didn't even mention it if I remember correctly.

[hibbysam]

The argument falls down a little bit when you consider he gave us a pen to go one up.. boyle steps in front of brown ensuring a collision. Not complaining!

With the number of soft hand ball decisions given by VAR I wasnt surprised to see it given. The one in the first half looked likely too imo. No real protest for it tho and cliff and tam didn't even mention it if I remember correctly.

Our penalty was a stonewaller, he couldn’t not give it. Boyle is allowed to get his body in front of brown, who knew himself he’d made an arse of it. It’s the same old though, it’s always easier to give the penalty to Celtic than against Celtic. Two similar handballs in the exact same place, only difference was the colour of top. The same Madden that gave the foul against us in the last minute of the semi final. Couldn’t wait to book our players today also, while blatantly ignoring Ajeti (pull) and Bitton (barge off the ball).

[matty_f]

The argument falls down a little bit when you consider he gave us a pen to go one up.. boyle steps in front of brown ensuring a collision. Not complaining!

With the number of soft hand ball decisions given by VAR I wasnt surprised to see it given. The one in the first half looked likely too imo. No real protest for it tho and cliff and tam didn't even mention it if I remember correctly.

Our penalty is a free kick anywhere else on the pitch, i didn’t think it was contentious at all, Brown knew he’d made the mistake right away.

[PaulSmith]

Why, that isn't what starts play.

I’ve had to re-read your posts as I got confused at the way its been written, I think we’re in agreement :)

Mackie is fouled, the assist referee tells the ref and regardless of the split second difference between the FK being taken and the whistle being blown the referee has decided that the game hasn’t re-started so he was correct to ask for it to be re-taken.


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[BILLYHIBS]

HIBS 14 fouls 4 Cards

Celtic 10 fouls including a pen 0 Cards

Still cannot believe he missed our double penalty claim against the yams in the 90th minute

Hey ho !

[pedroorange1875]

The argument falls down a little bit when you consider he gave us a pen to go one up.. boyle steps in front of brown ensuring a collision. Not complaining!

With the number of soft hand ball decisions given by VAR I wasnt surprised to see it given. The one in the first half looked likely too imo. No real protest for it tho and cliff and tam didn't even mention it if I remember correctly.

Thats where the cheat really kicks in though. The Brown incident is out in the open, obvious and looks totally dodgy not giving it. It was a stonewall pen visible no problem with no dubiety. The cheat will look for situations that can be manipulated, eg He didnt quite see the Ajer one, yet could see through a crowded box and 2 Celtic players to spot Mcginn who was pulling his arm behind

I accept you think that would be the case for both. But that doesnt mean ours should not be given or interpreted the same way, it should and the reality is that if it is not then its cheating. Whether there arre protests from players, coommentators or us is immaterial, if its a pen in our box then its a pen in theirs. Ajer was not even pulling his arms in the twice it hit him.

BBC still decided to scrutinise the Mackie one which he actually got 100% correct, which means he can interpret the rules correctly, highlighting even more the disgraceful decision early in the first half

[wookie70]

I’ve had to re-read your posts as I got confused at the way its been written, I think we’re in agreement :)

Mackie is fouled, the assist referee tells the ref and regardless of the split second difference between the FK being taken and the whistle being blown the referee has decided that the game hasn’t re-started so he was correct to ask for it to be re-taken.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Yep, when the whistle is blown doesn't matter the only doubt is was the ball in play. Madden and I think it wasn't. No idea what the whistle blowing has to do with it

[PaulSmith]

Yep, when the whistle is blown doesn't matter the only doubt is was the ball in play. Madden and I think it wasn't. No idea what the whistle blowing has to do with it

You’re kinda right and wrong there..there’s countless times where a free kick/corner has been taken and the referee has blown his whistle to say ‘hold on guys’ and ordered a re-take ;)


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[wookie70]

You’re kinda right and wrong there..there’s countless times where a free kick/corner has been taken and the referee has blown his whistle to say ‘hold on guys’ and ordered a re-take ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk I know but it is fact the offence has happened when the ball wasn't in play that is important. The refs whistle is a signal, the point where the offence takes place is the important thing. In the case you refer to the ref blows because there has been an offence, a player may be sent off, but if the corner hadn't been taken then play has not started and the corner will be taken or retaken if it was played after the offence and the ref has blown. It is one of the laws that is easy to understand but clearly not the way I am describing it

[matty_f]

I know but it is fact the offence has happened when the ball wasn't in play that is important. The refs whistle is a signal, the point where the offence takes place is the important thing. In the case you refer to the ref blows because there has been an offence, a player may be sent off, but if the corner hadn't been taken then play has not started and the corner will be taken or retaken if it was played after the offence and the ref has blown. It is one of the laws that is easy to understand but clearly not the way I am describing it

You’re describing it fine, you’re right as well.

[MrRobot]

Poor defending is to blame, not the ref.

[BILLYHIBS]

Poor defending is to blame, not the ref.
:agree:

Need to get it sorted pronto

Porto does a Garry Owen for the first and Hanlon clears it straight to a Celtic forward for an early Xmas present for the second

The defending and passing was not great throughout

Did we really need to make any changes?

Could we have held on ?

We probably unwittingly kept Lenny in a job

[erin go bragh]

Great 4th official 😉😁 shhiiitteee ref

[hibbysam]

:agree:

Need to get it sorted pronto

Porto does a Garry Owen for the first and Hanlon clears it straight to a Celtic forward for an early Xmas present for the second

The defending and passing was not great throughout

Did we really need to make any changes?

Could we have held on ?

We probably unwittingly kept Lenny in a job

Not sure how you can say our defending wasn’t good throughout. We were solid throughout. Celtic’s chances mostly came from range, they rarely, if any, got in behind us. Hanlon was outstanding, Porto less so. Two slack mistakes that were punished, purely through panicking, which happens when your holding on.

[BILLYHIBS]

Not sure how you can say our defending wasn’t good throughout. We were solid throughout. Celtic’s chances mostly came from range, they rarely, if any, got in behind us. Hanlon was outstanding, Porto less so. Two slack mistakes that were punished, purely through panicking, which happens when your holding on.

After the changes can you say hand on heart we did not look like conceding?

2-0 up against Celtic they are going to press you into mistakes

We let them off the hook some might say we panicked and bottled it

First half I remember Hanlon doing an excellent piece of work down our right- beat the Celtic forward for pace -cannae mind his name - tidied up really well then booted the ball out of play

The whole first half we could not pass to a green jersey or get out of our half

Did we clear our lines ?

No

Did Celtic score?

Yes twice

Boyle looks off the boil

[hibbysam]

After the changes can you say hand on heart we did not look like conceding?

2-0 up against Celtic they are going to press you into mistakes

We let them off the hook some might say we panicked and bottled it

First half I remember Hanlon doing an excellent piece of work down our right- beat the Celtic forward for pace -cannae mind his name - tidied up really well then booted the ball out of play

The whole first half we could not pass to a green jersey or get out of our half

Did we clear our lines ?

No

Did Celtic score?

Yes twice

Boyle looks off the boil

Yes, we made two mistakes late on which cost us. Your talking about our defending throughout. You’ve just highlighted a part where Hanlon defended very well. He defended the whole game extremely well until the last 2 minutes. Porteous struggled a bit more, was pretty rash charging out a few times. But on the whole Celtic created very little clear chances which is testament to our defending as a team. We did clear our lines, that was the issue, we were clearing our lines instead of keeping hold of the ball first half.

[gbhibby]

How can a referee blow his whistle simultaneously with an offence taking place unless you want Mystic Meg refereeing.

The whistle always follows the offence. The ball is not in play until the free kick is taken, the offence happened before the free kick is taken. I watched it carefully in the replay so am fairly sure that is the case and it is much like the jostling that takes place before a corner where the ref stops the corner and has a word with the players.
Here is the rule that matters, my bold. If the free kick had been taken then Mackie is fouled then it is a foul to Hibs. I don't think it had though so Madden got it right but whistled late, perhaps because the assistant saw it

A kick-off starts both halves of a match, both halves of extra time and restarts play after a goal has been scored. Free kicks (direct or indirect), penalty kicks, throw-ins, goal kicks and corner kicks are other restarts (see Laws 13 – 17). A dropped ball is the restart when the referee stops play and the Law does not require one of the above restarts.

If an offence occurs when the ball is not in play this does not change how play is restarted.
Have always thought that was a stupid rule so you can commit an offence but not be punished. So if a player punches an opponent in the face knocking him out it is OK because the ball is not in play. Foul play is foul play end of story.

[greenlad]

Have always thought that was a stupid rule so you can commit an offence but not be punished. So if a player punches an opponent in the face knocking him out it is OK because the ball is not in play. Foul play is foul play end of story.

If you punch a player in the face when the ball isn't in play then you will (if the ref sees it) get a red card. But the play will still restart as it otherwise would have done.

[BILLYHIBS]

Yes, we made two mistakes late on which cost us. Your talking about our defending throughout. You’ve just highlighted a part where Hanlon defended very well. He defended the whole game extremely well until the last 2 minutes. Porteous struggled a bit more, was pretty rash charging out a few times. But on the whole Celtic created very little clear chances which is testament to our defending as a team. We did clear our lines, that was the issue, we were clearing our lines instead of keeping hold of the ball first half.

Not according to Celtic TV ? :greengrin

72 % possession first half

The only reason HIBS held out first half was down to more luck than judgement, poor finishing on their part and Rocky

The half-time score should have been 0-5

Oh! and it was never a penalty Broonie slipped accidentally

Our passing as a team in the first half was not good A fact alluded to by Tam McManus at half-time

Yes miles better second half indeed we deservedly went 2-0 up but lost it because we panicked when we needed to stay calm clear our lines ( RP and PH) and not give away needless free-kicks outside our box ( SDG)

Rocky who I thought was excellent yesterday needs to be more commanding decisive and assertive and come off his line more

Yes we are all disappointed Jack Ross and the players equally so but I would have taken 2-2 before kick-off

Onwards and upwards

[Alfred E Newman]

You’d have to be crazy to think VAR would change either of those decisions

VAR would have given the penalty, it hit his arm. We have also been on the right side of the rule.
It's a daft ruling and its ruining the game.

[hibbysam]

Not according to Celtic TV ? :greengrin

72 % possession first half

The only reason HIBS held out first half was down to more luck than judgement, poor finishing on their part and Rocky

The half-time score should have been 0-5

Oh! and it was never a penalty Broonie slipped accidentally

Our passing as a team in the first half was not good A fact alluded to by Tam McManus at half-time

Yes miles better second half indeed we deservedly went 2-0 up but lost it because we panicked when we needed to stay calm clear our lines ( RP and PH) and not give away needless free-kicks outside our box ( SDG)

Rocky who I thought was excellent yesterday needs to be more commanding decisive and assertive and come off his line more

Yes we are all disappointed Jack Ross and the players equally so but I would have taken 2-2 before kick-off

Onwards and upwards

I agree about our passing, I don’t agree about our defending. Rocky was fine today apart from one moment second half where he’d already decided to retreat thinking the ball wouldn’t reach him. He took at least 3 crosses and punched 2 more.

[KeithTheHibby]

We need VAR up here simple as.

[NC1875]

Just seen the equaliser. How is it not a foul against Duffy, he’s all over Porteous and pushes him in the back ?

[BILLYHIBS]

I agree about our passing, I don’t agree about our defending. Rocky was fine today apart from one moment second half where he’d already decided to retreat thinking the ball wouldn’t reach him. He took at least 3 crosses and punched 2 more.

First half Porto was lucky to get away with a lunge in the box and a couple of others

The instance when Rocky came and hesitated and the Celtic guy almost nicked in sprung to mind

It would have been so much simpler if Rocky could have came and claimed Porto’s Garry Owen using his hands and height advantage

First half defensively we were ok we got away with it Celtic should have scored but didn’t Christie engineered a few chances for himself but unsurprisingly tired after playing three games on the bounce for Scotland

I enjoyed Mackies second half tackle on Biton

[GreenCastle]

Whenever I see Madden is involved in a Hibs game I expect some controversy.

He’s an awful ref.

How he missed the semi penalty claim and then yesterday once he gave the Hibs penalty it was certain he would try level things up...like he did in the semi.

I don’t rate any refs in Scotland - rarely seem to get fair performances. No wonder with the lack of refs to choose from some muppets get fast tracked.

[MrRobot]

:agree:

Need to get it sorted pronto

Porto does a Garry Owen for the first and Hanlon clears it straight to a Celtic forward for an early Xmas present for the second

The defending and passing was not great throughout

Did we really need to make any changes?

Could we have held on ?

We probably unwittingly kept Lenny in a job

i cannot understand the gray substitution at all tbh.

[lucky]

:agree:

Need to get it sorted pronto

Porto does a Garry Owen for the first and Hanlon clears it straight to a Celtic forward for an early Xmas present for the second

The defending and passing was not great throughout

Did we really need to make any changes?

Could we have held on ?

We probably unwittingly kept Lenny in a job

100% spot on, if Porto clears properly then there is no penalty incident, if Hanlon clears properly there’s no equaliser. In recent weeks I think Porto has been poor. His distribution at best is average but his performances have gone down hill since he got into the Scotland squad and Considine and Hanlon got late call ups and played. It’s like his confidence has taken a hit. He’s a young guy and maybe a spell on the bench might help him refocus.

[JimBHibees]

i cannot understand the gray substitution at all tbh.

Think the rationale was that we would go 5 at the back with McGinn joining Porto and Paul in a central 3. Personally understood the move as Edouard and Griffiths were creating chances centrally. What I didn't really understand was Boyle then pushing up front rather than in front of Gray to give him some protection in a 541.

[JimBHibees]

100% spot on, if Porto clears properly then there is no penalty incident, if Hanlon clears properly there’s no equaliser. In recent weeks I think Porto has been poor. His distribution at best is average but his performances have gone down hill since he got into the Scotland squad and Considine and Hanlon got late call ups and played. It’s like his confidence has taken a hit. He’s a young guy and maybe a spell on the bench might help him refocus.

Thought Porto was better yesterday though does over commit at times but still young as a central defender wouldn't drop him tbh.

[MrRobot]

Think the rationale was that we would go 5 at the back with McGinn joining Porto and Paul in a central 3. Personally understood the move as Edouard and Griffiths were creating chances centrally. What I didn't really understand was Boyle then pushing up front rather than in front of Gray to give him some protection in a 541.

they were creating chances but just didn’t see any benefit in gray coming in when he has barely played in months. Gogic dropping into a defensive 4 3 maybe but felt it was a really poor sub.

[oneone73]

Think the rationale was that we would go 5 at the back with McGinn joining Porto and Paul in a central 3. Personally understood the move as Edouard and Griffiths were creating chances centrally. What I didn't really understand was Boyle then pushing up front rather than in front of Gray to give him some protection in a 541.

In hindsight, perhaps Daz might have been a better option, leaving McGinn where he was.

[hibbysam]

In hindsight, perhaps Daz might have been a better option, leaving McGinn where he was.

That should’ve been the only sub. McGregor would also have given us the physicality in the middle of the box at set pieces against Duffy.

[gbhibby]

If you punch a player in the face when the ball isn't in play then you will (if the ref sees it) get a red card. But the play will still restart as it otherwise would have done.

If it was the defending team that did it then a penalty should be awarded if the attacking team did it a foul should be awarded thus the original foul should be overruled. It happens in Rugby so why not football? Foul play should be punished as you are seeking to gain an advantage.IMHO
Rangers get a penalty today because the ball was in play how many times do you see Considines type of challenge happen when the ball is not in play.

[wookie70]

If it was the defending team that did it then a penalty should be awarded if the attacking team did it a foul should be awarded thus the original foul should be overruled. It happens in Rugby so why not football? Foul play should be punished as you are seeking to gain an advantage.IMHO
Rangers get a penalty today because the ball was in play how many times do you see Considines type of challenge happen when the ball is not in play.
Don't disagree but not sure I'd trust the law makers as they have completely messed up offside and handball and made the game far worse imo

[EI255]

Anyone see the Dunfermline v Hearts linesman on Friday evening, near the end he gave a throw Hearts way when the ball clearly came off a Hearts player. The linesman paused, and looked like he knew he was wrong, but still gave it Hearts way. Shocking decision. I hate it when refs add loads of time on when games are tight yet there was no time to get added anyway. What's all that about?!

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[hibbysam]

At the time I genuinely thought by the laws it was a penalty. Seeing it over and over it just isn’t a penalty. While McGinn’s arm started slightly away from his body, the time he touches the ball his arm is tucked back in, and even at that, the touch is minimal, no wonder he was pishing himself laughing at it. Used to like madden, after the semi and yesterday I now hate him. Utter roaster. Then had the cheek to book Hanlon after 5 of their team had him surrounded at our penalty.

[CropleyWasGod]

At the time I genuinely thought by the laws it was a penalty. Seeing it over and over it just isn’t a penalty. While McGinn’s arm started slightly away from his body, the time he touches the ball his arm is tucked back in, and even at that, the touch is minimal, no wonder he was pishing himself laughing at it. Used to like madden, after the semi and yesterday I now hate him. Utter roaster. Then had the cheek to book Hanlon after 5 of their team had him surrounded at our penalty.

On your first viewing, you saw it the same as the first time the ref saw it. Without VAR, that's the only comparison you can make.

[hibbysam]

On your first viewing, you saw it the same as the first time the ref saw it. Without VAR, that's the only comparison you can make.

That doesn’t make it correct, and he likely had a far better view being pitch level.

[CropleyWasGod]

That doesn’t make it correct, and he likely had a far better view being pitch level.

... or maybe not.

My point is, and it's an old chestnut, that we can analyse these things to death and lose sight of the fact that the refs have one shot at things. Yes, they are trained to look for these things at speed, and to be in the best position to do so, but if it takes us lots of viewings to come to a decision, it does underline how difficult these things can be.

[hibbysam]

... or maybe not.

My point is, and it's an old chestnut, that we can analyse these things to death and lose sight of the fact that the refs have one shot at things. Yes, they are trained to look for these things at speed, and to be in the best position to do so, but if it takes us lots of viewings to come to a decision, it does underline how difficult these things can be.

And if he didn’t have a better view then he guessed. And we all know guessing is bad. He’s given a decision based on what he thought he saw, instead of giving it based on what he actually seen. It was far easier for him to see the one first half, no players blocking views, hand in the air, yet he decided not to give that one.

[wookie70]

Watched the highlights and Madden got more right than wrong imo. Ajer penalty - no pen as it deflected off him, Gogic push on Celtc player with free header- glad he missed it as it was pen, pen for Hibs - Correct, Pen for Celtc-Correct, Celts equaliser free kick V1, correctly retaken as Mackie fouled while ball out of play, Celtc equaliser - arguably a foul by Duffy but both players have each others shirts.

It was nice to hear the Sportscene commentator actually knowing the rules, which for commentators and pundits isn't a guaranteed

[Wheat Hound]

Watched the highlights and Madden got more right than wrong imo. Ajer penalty - no pen as it deflected off him, Gogic push on Celtc player with free header- glad he missed it as it was pen, pen for Hibs - Correct, Pen for Celtc-Correct, Celts equaliser free kick V1, correctly retaken as Mackie fouled while ball out of play, Celtc equaliser - arguably a foul by Duffy but both players have each others shirts.

It was nice to hear the Sportscene commentator actually knowing the rules, which for commentators and pundits isn't a guaranteed

Why was the Ajer one not a penalty? It hit off his hand/arm which was away from his body.

[wookie70]

Why was the Ajer one not a penalty? It hit off his hand/arm which was away from his body. It hit off his knee first.

[hibbysam]

It hit off his knee first.

Which isn’t in the laws of the game. The deflection makes no difference when his hands are either high or making his body unnaturally bigger. If that was the case then the play of the ball directly before McGinn’s handball would also have stopped it being a penalty. McGinn’s hand is also in a natural position and not high when he touches the ball for their penalty.

Watching the Leicester game tonight, Liverpool free kick, Liverpool player fouls Leicester player before the kick is taken (as player is running up) free kick given to Leicester. Exact same scenario as ours.

[wookie70]

Which isn’t in the laws of the game. The deflection makes no difference when his hands are either high or making his body unnaturally bigger. If that was the case then the play of the ball directly before McGinn’s handball would also have stopped it being a penalty. McGinn’s hand is also in a natural position and not high when he touches the ball for their penalty.

Watching the Leicester game tonight, Liverpool free kick, Liverpool player fouls Leicester player before the kick is taken (as player is running up) free kick given to Leicester. Exact same scenario as ours.
We have disagreed on this recently so I won't go over old ground barring putting the rule I think is pertinent, my bold. I watched it again and I think there is some doubt that Ajer deliberately played the ball though but he was trying to block it so I would say he gets the benefit of the doubt. The second touch of his hand is fine as it is supporting him on the ground.

The Celtc penalty hits McGinn straight on the arm not from a deflection off his own body

touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)
Again we disagree with the ball in play too and have both said our part. The ref is wrong imo if he gives a free kick before play has started in that game. I'll watch it tonight but Mackie was definitely fouled before Griffith first swung in V1 of their equalising free kick.

Any refs able to clarify as Sam and I are clearly both trying to read teh rules and not just guessing

[B.H.F.C]

Which isn’t in the laws of the game. The deflection makes no difference when his hands are either high or making his body unnaturally bigger. If that was the case then the play of the ball directly before McGinn’s handball would also have stopped it being a penalty. McGinn’s hand is also in a natural position and not high when he touches the ball for their penalty.

Watching the Leicester game tonight, Liverpool free kick, Liverpool player fouls Leicester player before the kick is taken (as player is running up) free kick given to Leicester. Exact same scenario as ours.

That scenario with the Liverpool game just shows that the laws aren’t always applied consistently. If the ball hasn’t been kicked it’s not in play and the ref can’t give a foul. I don’t think we can moan about that one as I don’t think it had been kicked. Having initially thought the penalty was a penalty, I do think we have a case to moan about that one though.

[hibbysam]

That scenario with the Liverpool game just shows that the laws aren’t always applied consistently. If the ball hasn’t been kicked it’s not in play and the ref can’t give a foul. I don’t think we can moan about that one as I don’t think it had been kicked. Having initially thought the penalty was a penalty, I do think we have a case to moan about that one though.

That’s my problem though, it’s the exact same scenario x2 yet ours gets retaken and the one in England is a foul.

[wookie70]

That’s my problem though, it’s the exact same scenario x2 yet ours gets retaken and the one in England is a foul.
There are lots of examples of the same ref in the same game not being consistent so nothing new there. The ref got it wrong by the sounds of it in the Liverpool game

[hibbysam]

We have disagreed on this recently so I won't go over old ground barring putting the rule I think is pertinent, my bold. I watched it again and I think there is some doubt that Ajer deliberately played the ball though but he was trying to block it so I would say he gets the benefit of the doubt. The second touch of his hand is fine as it is supporting him on the ground.

The Celtc penalty hits McGinn straight on the arm not from a deflection off his own body

touches the ball with their hand/arm when:
the hand/arm is above/beyond their shoulder level (unless the player deliberately plays the ball which then touches their hand/arm)
Again we disagree with the ball in play too and have both said our part. The ref is wrong imo if he gives a free kick before play has started in that game. I'll watch it tonight but Mackie was definitely fouled before Griffith first swung in V1 of their equalising free kick.

Any refs able to clarify as Sam and I are clearly both trying to read teh rules and not just guessing

The line ‘ Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:’ stands though. It was one of the above offences, so the part about it hitting his own body doesn’t matter. His arm was outstretched and up above his shoulder.

It also hit McGinn’s hand when it was by his side, and it never made his body unnaturally bigger, it’s natural to have your arm by your side.

[wookie70]

The line ‘ Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:’ stands though. It was one of the above offences, so the part about it hitting his own body doesn’t matter. His arm was outstretched and up above his shoulder.

It also hit McGinn’s hand when it was by his side, and it never made his body unnaturally bigger, it’s natural to have your arm by your side.

It is the same bullet point and an explanation and exception. Why put the part in parenthesis if it doesn't apply. It has already been excepted before the line you refer to.

There is a difference if the deflection is from an opposing player which in my view is the part you are referring to. I wish they would change the language from player to either attacker and defender depending who they referring to in this law.

[hibbysam]

It is the same bullet point and an explanation and exception. Why put the part in parenthesis if it doesn't apply. It has already been excepted before the line you refer to.

There is a difference if the deflection is from an opposing player which in my view is the part you are referring to. I wish they would change the language from player to either attacker and defender depending who they referring to in this law.

No, it quite clearly references that if one of the above offences has been committed (ie hand above shoulder, body unnaturally bigger etc) then the following doesn’t apply. Both of those situations applied to the Ajer one so the touch off his own body is irrelevant.

In the McGinn one it is the other part of the rule, which references hitting himself, so if his hand was high, or his arm was out at the point of contact then it’s a penalty, the problem is it wasn’t. When contacting the ball, his hand was low and tucked back into his body. It’s not a penalty.

[inglisavhibs]

There are lots of examples of the same ref in the same game not being consistent so nothing new there. The ref got it wrong by the sounds of it in the Liverpool game
The rules are the real problem and making decision making too difficult. It’s making some games farcical and the McGinn one is a good example of the problem. Never a penalty in a million years and neither is one where it hits the Celtic players hand. Although Celtic deserved a point it almost certainly was a decision that cost us a win but we wont be the only team to suffer from people mucking about with the rules of the game.

[wookie70]

The line ‘ Except for the above offences, it is not an offence if the ball touches a player’s hand/arm:’ stands though. It was one of the above offences, so the part about it hitting his own body doesn’t matter. His arm was outstretched and up above his shoulder.

It also hit McGinn’s hand when it was by his side, and it never made his body unnaturally bigger, it’s natural to have your arm by your side.


I have read that rule countless times recently but am still missing bits I think. The Ajer one isn't a pen if the ref thinks his hands is above his shoulder as you said above. Very debateable as he is sliding so pretty much body horizontal to the ground. If his hand/arm is making his body bigger and it is not above shoulder level then it would be a pen regardless of the deflection off his leg. There are two distinct parts about above shoulder and making his body bigger. The one above the shoulder is the exception I am quoting. Hopefully we can agree that the new rules have done far more to confuse than simplify and McGinn's offence should never be a penalty when the lawmakers sit down to write the laws of the game.

[hibbysam]

I have read that rule countless times recently but am still missing bits I think. The Ajer one isn't a pen if the ref thinks his hands is above his shoulder as you said above. Very debateable as he is sliding so pretty much body horizontal to the ground. If his hand/arm is making his body bigger and it is not above shoulder level then it would be a pen regardless of the deflection off his leg. There are two distinct parts about above shoulder and making his body bigger. The one above the shoulder is the exception I am quoting. Hopefully we can agree that the new rules have done far more to confuse than simplify and McGinn's offence should never be a penalty when the lawmakers sit down to write the laws of the game.

100% the laws are a pile of crap. Even more so when different countries can interpret the laws and tweak them to suit themselves, ie England changing the interpretation so less penalties are given. The rule makers have dug themselves a huge hole for absolutely no reason. We all know when someone has deliberately handled the ball to gain an advantage. It’s really about time the players took back control of the game, and not boys in suits who haven’t a clue, or referees who weren’t good enough to play as it’s completely ruined it.

Take McGinn’s (even if someone told me by law it was a penalty), it’s not deliberate, it’s barely even a touch, it’s not altered the ball, how someone could even argue that should be a foul is utter scandalous 😂

[wookie70]

100% the laws are a pile of crap. Even more so when different countries can interpret the laws and tweak them to suit themselves, ie England changing the interpretation so less penalties are given. The rule makers have dug themselves a huge hole for absolutely no reason. We all know when someone has deliberately handled the ball to gain an advantage. It’s really about time the players took back control of the game, and not boys in suits who haven’t a clue, or referees who weren’t good enough to play as it’s completely ruined it.

Take McGinn’s (even if someone told me by law it was a penalty), it’s not deliberate, it’s barely even a touch, it’s not altered the ball, how someone could even argue that should be a foul is utter scandalous 😂

Delighted to be able to completely agree with that. I also thank you as I have a better knowledge of the handball rule because of our little discussions. Some of it simply doesn't make sense apart from being unjust. Not wanting to get political but it reminds me of the covid rules in lockdown. I can see what they are trying to do but they are creating more confusion by making it so complicated and taking it down to a granular level.

[hibbysam]

Delighted to be able to completely agree with that. I also thank you as I have a better knowledge of the handball rule because of our little discussions. Some of it simply doesn't make sense apart from being unjust. Not wanting to get political but it reminds me of the covid rules in lockdown. I can see what they are trying to do but they are creating more confusion by making it so complicated and taking it down to a granular level.

The problem is, the incident is clear, we can all see what has happened. But ten people will give different opinions on it, and nobody can say for certain what the scenario should be. It’s not a difficult sport. The rules should be fairly basic and clear, the fact they aren’t shows how wrong they are. Referees shouldn’t have to explain the rules, they should just need to apply them, but too often you’ll hear referees try and tell people what the rule is and why it is like that, when there shouldn’t be any need!

[wookie70]

The problem is, the incident is clear, we can all see what has happened. But ten people will give different opinions on it, and nobody can say for certain what the scenario should be. It’s not a difficult sport. The rules should be fairly basic and clear, the fact they aren’t shows how wrong they are. Referees shouldn’t have to explain the rules, they should just need to apply them, but too often you’ll hear referees try and tell people what the rule is and why it is like that, when there shouldn’t be any need!

I liked the offside and handball rules thirty years ago. Pretty clear to me then but not so much now and I do take the time to try and understand. I'm like the old quote for offside. If he isn't interfering with play why is he on the pitch.

[Snedz]

The most annoying and frustrating aspect is for me the foul on Mackie. Maddon then orders a retake that benefits the fouling team Celtic. It should clearly have been a foul for Hibs and that would have been time up soon after. A shocking passage of play by Maddon.

[I'm_cabbaged]

The most annoying and frustrating aspect is for me the foul on Mackie. Maddon then orders a retake that benefits the fouling team Celtic. It should clearly have been a foul for Hibs and that would have been time up soon after. A shocking passage of play by Maddon.
Wonder what would’ve happened if the foul had been the other way? Didn’t something similar happen against the Huns a few seasons back?

[I'm_cabbaged]

The most annoying and frustrating aspect is for me the foul on Mackie. Maddon then orders a retake that benefits the fouling team Celtic. It should clearly have been a foul for Hibs and that would have been time up soon after. A shocking passage of play by Maddon.
Wonder what would’ve happened if the foul had been the other way? Didn’t something similar happen against the Huns a few seasons back?

[JimBHibees]

Wonder what would’ve happened if the foul had been the other way? Didn’t something similar happen against the Huns a few seasons back?

Madden was certainly in charge with that bizarre extra ball incident at Ibrox seem to remember we got done over by that also. What with Saturday and his 5 yard away penalty in the semi final this clown is definitely on the naughty list. :greengrin

[Bishop Hibee]

Just watched MOTD2. Two handball decisions ruled out by VAR which were similar to McGinn’s handball. I’d like to hear Madden’s explanation for the Celtc pen but there is no chance of that.

[wookie70]

Just watched MOTD2. Two handball decisions ruled out by VAR which were similar to McGinn’s handball. I’d like to hear Madden’s explanation for the Celtc pen but there is no chance of that.

I watched two and they were similar. Have The FA not changed their refs interpretation so less pens are given

[tomf]

I watched Match of the Day 2 and there were two incidents when the ball clearly hit a player on the arm and in both cases they were subject to VAR and not given; the commentators highlighted them so they were fairly obvious. In all honesty I couldn't see much difference between either incident and the one that led to the Celtic penalty. Watching the Hibs game at the time I thought it was an extremely soft penalty and I think with VAR it might well have not been given. The issue, as ever, is really down to the referee's interpretation but from what I saw the ref gave a marginal decision to Celtic and denied a similar, possibly stronger, one for Hibs. It then becomes a matter of consistency.

In Scotland we have seen years absolute bias from refs, incompetence, zero consistency and now we have added a set of rules regarding penalties that acts as a get-out clause for all of that and all of them. We can all live with mistakes but let's not legislate in order to encourage them.

[ancient hibee]

When I watched it live I thought the ball was in play when Mackie was fouled-clearly it wasn't but rugby has the answer with the ability to reverse penalties in the event of backchat or foul play.