Atlantic League

[chippy]

Apparently Celtic have pulled out of plans for a cross border league of 20 , 5 from Scotland , Sweden, Denmark , 4 from Norway and 1 Irish club. Was supposedly going to be backed by JP Morgan , £900m guaranteed for 4 years in total. Desmond keener on some British set up or status quo. Does Desmond think Celtic will get into the Premiership ? Thoughts on this ?

[Carheenlea]

Saw sense more like. Atlantic League one of the worst proposals ever put on a table.

[easty]

Sounds like a terrible idea. I’ve no idea why anyone with the finances to back it would even bother. The interest just wouldn’t be there.

[Diclonius]

I'd be in favour of a combined Northern League IF it still had a pyramid system, i.e. top division or two internationally and national leagues below that.

I'd prefer a northern league to a UK league tbh as we'd never be in the top division if that happened.

[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201117/02ffe241536f26351f868a615acb113d.jpg

Not everyone’s cup of tea but the money involved would mean better players playing at Easter Road.


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[Ozyhibby]

Sounds like a terrible idea. I’ve no idea why anyone with the finances to back it would even bother. The interest just wouldn’t be there.

£1billon TV deal but you think there will be no interest?[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20201117/6a0b3447579c88da2d1ce752a5c7f831.jpg

There is the rest of the article if anyone is interested in reading.


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[Ozyhibby]

Two things from that article stand out. One is that Hibs are involved and are keen on it, which answers the question why did Ron Gordon get involved at Hibs? With those sorts of figures involved he will get a very healthy return on his money. Second is that there is no way Celtic pulled out because they love the status quo. They must have another idea for change that suits them better.
One way or another, change is coming soon. And I’m glad Hibs are in there trying to shape it.


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[chippy]

Two things from that article stand out. One is that Hibs are involved and are keen on it, which answers the question why did Ron Gordon get involved at Hibs? With those sorts of figures involved he will get a very healthy return on his money. Second is that there is no way Celtic pulled out because they love the status quo. They must have another idea for change that suits them better.
One way or another, change is coming soon. And I’m glad Hibs are in there trying to shape it.


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That’s largely how I see it regarding RG’s involvement with us and Celtic have something else up their sleeve. Maybe Celtic waiting to see how the EPL and Euro Super League play out. A TV deal giving Hibs something like £20-30 million over 4 seasons would be huge. We would attract and keep at least Championship level players. Easter Road would be full too. Can’t get the negativity around it. Probably have our B team in the Scottish set up too

[Pagan Hibernia]

That’s largely how I see it regarding RG’s involvement with us and Celtic have something else up their sleeve. Maybe Celtic waiting to see how the EPL and Euro Super League play out. A TV deal giving Hibs something like £20-30 million over 4 seasons would be huge. We would attract and keep at least Championship level players. Easter Road would be full too. Can’t get the negativity around it. Probably have our B team in the Scottish set up too

really? You can’t see why people might not like this?

[Ozyhibby]

really? You can’t see why people might not like this?

I can see why some people wouldn’t like it. I also think it’s happening regardless. Not sure exactly how it will look but there will be change.


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[chippy]

really? You can’t see why people might not like this?

Yes. Hibs get additional £5 -10 million per year to spend on players. Could mean 10 players earning 10-20k per week. Puts us roughly on a par with Rangers current wages I reckon. Who could we afford then? Any player in Scotland and lots of quality English and other foreign players. ER would be jumping and corners filled in.

[DH1875]

No interest in it what so ever. Doesn't even have the Dutch or Belgian teams in it which at least would be something.

[Ozyhibby]

Yes. Hibs get additional £5 -10 million per year to spend on players. Could mean 10 players earning 10-20k per week. Puts us roughly on a par with Rangers current wages I reckon. Who could we afford then? Any player in Scotland and lots of quality English and other foreign players. ER would be jumping and corners filled in.

Means that we can hold on to players like John McGinn longer and when we do sell we get full value for our player.


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[Ozyhibby]

No interest in it what so ever. Doesn't even have the Dutch or Belgian teams in it which at least would be something.

Probably a good thing for Hibs because the Dutch and Belgian teams may mean less room for Hibs.


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[MWHIBBIES]

Will almost certainly stop going if it happens. Zero interest in Molde away on a Wednesday night battle for 10th place. Sounds absolutely awful.

[easty]

£1billon TV deal but you think there will be no interest?[emoji23]


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£1B tv deal but Celtc say nah...

I call bull**** on the TV deal, because nobody is interested in a ****ty league of teams who most folk couldn't care less about.

You can laugh all you want, but there's been chat of this for nearly 20 years. It really wouldn't take that long to arrange it if it was something that people actually wanted.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Will almost certainly stop going if it happens. Zero interest in Molde away on a Wednesday night battle for 10th place. Sounds absolutely awful.

you won’t be the only one. Its not for me. There may well be new supporters to replace us (at least for a year or two until the novelty wears off) but I think a good few traditional fans will want nothing to do with this.

[DH1875]

Probably a good thing for Hibs because the Dutch and Belgian teams may mean less room for Hibs.


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I get what your saying but who are the 5th best teams in Sweden and Denmark. 4th best team in Norway? Sack that and without the Dutch and Belgians I can't believe someone wants to pay £900 million for it.

[A Hi-Bee]

I think this would be great for our game, stir up some of the little tin-pot dictators we have in the Scottish game. Should change the name to the Viking League, stuff celic let them do what they want? This is the way ahead all for such ideas.

[chippy]

I get what your saying but who are the 5th best teams in Sweden and Denmark. 4th best team in Norway? Sack that and without the Dutch and Belgians I can't believe someone wants to pay £900 million for it.

Take your point. Reckon the idea was to invite the biggest clubs in terms of fan base.

[Scott Allan Key]

you won’t be the only one. Its not for me. There may well be new supporters to replace us (at least for a year or two until the novelty wears off) but I think a good few traditional fans will want nothing to do with this.Then the traditional fans are impoverishing Hibs with their michty me parochialism. I'd rather see games v the Scandinavian teams then Hamilton, that's for sure.

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[Ozyhibby]

£1B tv deal but Celtc say nah...

I call bull**** on the TV deal, because nobody is interested in a ****ty league of teams who most folk couldn't care less about.

You can laugh all you want, but there's been chat of this for nearly 20 years. It really wouldn't take that long to arrange it if it was something that people actually wanted.

I doubt Celtic are saying No to change. They are more likely waiting to see if a different kind of change suits them better financially. Clubs all over Europe have just taken a massive financial hit. There are going to be more than a few looking to get their business’s back in the black and this is one way of doing it for some.
I’m certain Hibs will be looking at it positively.


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[Ozyhibby]

Then the traditional fans are impoverishing Hibs with their michty me parochialism. I'd rather see games v the Scandinavian teams then Hamilton, that's for sure.

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Hibs V Molde away on a horrible Wednesday night though? Hibs v Molde with John McGinn still playing for Hibs though? That would likely change some minds.


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[Scott Allan Key]

Hibs V Molde away on a horrible Wednesday night though? Hibs v Molde with John McGinn still playing for Hibs though? That would likely change some minds.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkThat's the implication. Having a lot of money and having a mix of very good British and foreign players could make for a very interesting league IMHO. Also, these countries are rich, as is Scotland, and can offer a great quality of life to the players.

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[MWHIBBIES]

Hibs V Molde away on a horrible Wednesday night though? Hibs v Molde with John McGinn still playing for Hibs though? That would likely change some minds.


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Will the premier league suddenly collapse? If not, he wouldn't still be at Hibs.

[Ozyhibby]

Will the premier league suddenly collapse? If not, he wouldn't still be at Hibs.

Had we had it already he may never have left. I’m not saying he is coming back, I’m just pointing out that we don’t have to be watching the quality player we are just now. There is a way to bring in higher quality footballers to Easter road. RG would be failing his customers if he didn’t take that chance. It’s clear from the article that Hibs and Hearts are looking for an escape route.


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[chippy]

Had we had it already he may never have left. I’m not saying he is coming back, I’m just pointing out that we don’t have to be watching the quality player we are just now. There is a way to bring in higher quality footballers to Easter road. RG would be failing his customers if he didn’t take that chance. It’s clear from the article that Hibs and Hearts are looking for an escape route.


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Good point , what did he leave us for . A ridiculous low fee and 10k per week. I know he’s on more now but if we’d been in this set up 5 years ago we’d be able to pay him possibly 20k pw until we got a crazy offer

[MWHIBBIES]

Had we had it already he may never have left. I’m not saying he is coming back, I’m just pointing out that we don’t have to be watching the quality player we are just now. There is a way to bring in higher quality footballers to Easter road. RG would be failing his customers if he didn’t take that chance. It’s clear from the article that Hibs and Hearts are looking for an escape route.


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RG will be massively failing his customers by not even consulting them on a decision that will impact us long after he's gone.

[chippy]

RG will be massively failing his customers by not even consulting them on a decision that will impact us long after he's gone.

Fair point but it’s bank account he’ll be thinking about. The price you pay for a non fan owner

[B.H.F.C]

Good point , what did he leave us for . A ridiculous low fee and 10k per week. I know he’s on more now but if we’d been in this set up 5 years ago we’d be able to pay him possibly 20k pw until we got a crazy offer

Some jump to suddenly be paying players £20k a week.

£900m, split equally over the 6 years, amounts to £7.5m a year for each team. However, we’d likely be receiving less than that as presumably it’d be based on league position and we wouldn’t be at the top end I wouldn’t think.

So deduct the TV money we wouldn’t be seeing, add in our additional costs (imagine it would cost the club a 7 figure sum over a season for travelling away to Europe every couple of weeks).

Best case scenario, initially, you are a few million quid better off a year. Aberdeen, for example, currently bring in a few million quid more than us each year but they’re not paying anyone £20k a week.

On McGinn, he reportedly left us for in excess of £20k a week and ended up on £60k odd a week when he signed his new contract.

Not saying it wouldn’t make us better if financially, but to think we suddenly end up paying that type of money is crazy IMO.

[Since90+2]

Some jump to suddenly be paying players £20k a week.

£900m, split equally over the 6 years, amounts to £7.5m a year for each team. However, we’d likely be receiving less than that as presumably it’d be based on league position and we wouldn’t be at the top end I wouldn’t think.

So deduct the TV money we wouldn’t be seeing, add in our additional costs (imagine it would cost the club a 7 figure sum over a season for travelling away to Europe every couple of weeks).

Best case scenario, initially, you are a few million quid better off a year. Aberdeen, for example, currently bring in a few million quid more than us each year but they’re not paying anyone £20k a week.

On McGinn, he reportedly left us for in excess of £20k a week and ended up on £60k odd a week when he signed his new contract.

Not saying it wouldn’t make us better if financially, but to think we suddenly end up paying that type of money is crazy IMO.

The headline figure looks great but when you break it down in reality it's not all that much more. Probably not even enough to compete with middle to top end championship clubs in England let alone the Premier League.

If you add in the teams from Holland and Belgium then I think it's potentially a goer but not without them. There's just not enough big name clubs in it to make it interesting.

Celtic and Rangers would also still be the biggest clubs in it and would likely be the most successful teams.

[ScottB]

No interest in it what so ever. Doesn't even have the Dutch or Belgian teams in it which at least would be something.

I believe they are creating their own combined league between themselves?

While there’s been endless chat about such things for years and years, does seem like some changes are starting to happen. There’s talk of Balkan and Baltic leagues as well.

[easty]

RG will be massively failing his customers by not even consulting them on a decision that will impact us long after he's gone.

There’s not a decision to make, or consult us about, as it’s not happening.

[B.H.F.C]

The headline figure looks great but when you break it down in reality it's not all that much more. Probably not even enough to compete with middle to top end championship clubs in England let alone the Premier League.

If you add in the teams from Holland and Belgium then I think it's potentially a goer but not without them. There's just not enough big name clubs in it to make it interesting.

Celtic and Rangers would also still be the biggest clubs in it and would likely be the most successful teams.

Agree. Also, while there would be a novelty aspect to it initially, there is one thing that would see ER full every week and that’s winning games and competing at the right end of the league, whether we’re playing Hamilton or Valarenga.

I’m not totally dismissive of it because it’ll happen at some point in my life, whether I like it or not I think. But folk need to be realistic if they think we would have players like McGinn for longer and be paying them 20k a week because of this.

[chippy]

Some jump to suddenly be paying players £20k a week.

£900m, split equally over the 6 years, amounts to £7.5m a year for each team. However, we’d likely be receiving less than that as presumably it’d be based on league position and we wouldn’t be at the top end I wouldn’t think.

So deduct the TV money we wouldn’t be seeing, add in our additional costs (imagine it would cost the club a 7 figure sum over a season for travelling away to Europe every couple of weeks).

Best case scenario, initially, you are a few million quid better off a year. Aberdeen, for example, currently bring in a few million quid more than us each year but they’re not paying anyone £20k a week.

On McGinn, he reportedly left us for in excess of £20k a week and ended up on £60k odd a week when he signed his new contract.


Not saying it wouldn’t make us better if financially, but to think we suddenly end up paying that type of money is crazy IMO.

Ok fair comment. I’d thought it was a 4 year deal. I’d imagine it will be closer to an even split of tv money unlike the spfl. Do you not think sponsorship would dramatically increase as we enter a market of 30 million? That our season tickets will increase? That we’ll likely have to fill in the corners ? With better players might we do much better in qualifying and progressing in the Europa league or Conference league. Villa would not have needed to pay SJM 20k pweek at that time. I think 10-15k more likely. So yes we could have afforded to pay our top man that for season or 2 on having an extra 5-7.5 million per year

[The Modfather]

Playing devils advocate, a lot of people criticise or have no interest in the champions league, for example, as it’s about making the same dozen or so clubs richer and ensuring they are always in the latter rounds. Is that much different to a league based on size of clubs because we’re potentially on the inside this time and it’s ok for us to chase the money? What happens to the Scottish clubs we leave behind?

I’d be open to a proposal and would judge it on merit, but suspect I’d probably not be in favour of it or end up drifting away from Hibs once the novelty wears off.

[MWHIBBIES]

There’s not a decision to make, or consult us about, as it’s not happening.

I very much agree with you mate. Its fantasy talk, based on very, very little.

[B.H.F.C]

Ok fair comment. I’d thought it was a 4 year deal. I’d imagine it will be closer to an even split of tv money unlike the spfl. Do you not think sponsorship would dramatically increase as we enter a market of 30 million? That our season tickets will increase? That we’ll likely have to fill in the corners ? With better players might we do much better in qualifying and progressing in the Europa league or Conference league. Villa would not have needed to pay SJM 20k pweek at that time. I think 10-15k more likely. So yes we could have afforded to pay our top man that for season or 2 on having an extra 5-7.5 million per year

I think it’s easy to chuck a lot of numbers about, but can only base it against what has actually been reported. Not sure the money would be split evenly, it’s prize money so teams performing better will always get more.

I don’t think it automatically means bigger crowds, no. Winning games does that, regardless of the opposition.

Sponsorship, yes potential there I’ll give you there.

On the point of wages, it’s not a case of just giving one player £15k a week. Yes players will earn varying amounts but you can’t have a squad of players earning £3k a week with the odd player earning 5 times that. It wouldn’t work like that. Yes you’d have an increased budget but it would be spread across the squad.

[Stonewall]

RG will be massively failing his customers by not even consulting them on a decision that will impact us long after he's gone.

He would also be failing us massively by not actively considering alternatives.

[offshorehibby]

Personally i don't fancy it. Looking at the various leagues mentioned i can see us being mid table regularly. If we say no and the top 5 Scottish clubs say yes and move, what are we left with top of the also rans league.

If Celtic are holding back for some reason then you can bet your boots the huns will be looking at the same avenues.

I'll still be supporting the Hibs though

[Smartie]

This stuff normally rears its head after an abysmal Scotland result that cements our underachievement as a nation at international level and we spend the next few weeks incessantly discussing the number of teams in the top league of Scottish football like that's the problem.

Maybe this chat was pre-prepared by a lazy journo in anticipation of us doing the usual over the past few weeks?

I'm a bit lukewarm about it. Hibs at Easter Road will hopefully always interest me. Pushing to be the strongest we can be within the current set up, becoming a hot bed of young players who grow into teams who punch above their weight and get properly in about the OF and start to make good progress in European football would probably be my ideal.

If this league happened then I'd like to think I wouldn't be done with football altogether. I can't say more games against moderate European opposition in a league with zero history or tradition really gets my juices flowing or represents any sort of an improvement on what we currently have. History would tell us that if we got slightly more money, rather than actually have a better team we'd end up just wasting it anyway.

[easty]

Then the traditional fans are impoverishing Hibs with their michty me parochialism. I'd rather see games v the Scandinavian teams then Hamilton, that's for sure.

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I think the appeal would quickly turn to boredom.

4th and 5th in Sweden last season were AIK and Norrkoping.
4th and 5th in Norway were Odd and Viking.

None of them seem more exciting than playing Hamilton to me.

[Hibee Mac]

Playing devils advocate, a lot of people criticise or have no interest in the champions league, for example, as it’s about making the same dozen or so clubs richer and ensuring they are always in the latter rounds. Is that much different to a league based on size of clubs because we’re potentially on the inside this time and it’s ok for us to chase the money? What happens to the Scottish clubs we leave behind?

I’d be open to a proposal and would judge it on merit, but suspect I’d probably not be in favour of it or end up drifting away from Hibs once the novelty wears off.The clubs left behind remain in a reorganised top Scottish League who then have the opportunity each year to be promoted into the newly created Atlantic league or whatever they call it.

Makes sense to me that the first year would be based on size of teams for financial reasons but then there is full opportunity to be relegated and promoted to and from the league's from then on.

I'd be keen for us to investigate something like that if it improved the standard of players and football we watch at Hibs.

Suppose you could argue that it would give us less chance of securing European cup football?

[Ozyhibby]

The clubs left behind remain in a reorganised top Scottish League who then have the opportunity each year to be promoted into the newly created Atlantic league or whatever they call it.

Makes sense to me that the first year would be based on size of teams for financial reasons but then there is full opportunity to be relegated and promoted to and from the league's from then on.

I'd be keen for us to investigate something like that if it improved the standard of players and football we watch at Hibs.

Suppose you could argue that it would give us less chance of securing European cup football?

Or you could say it’s guaranteed European football.[emoji3]


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[Lendo]

I imagine Celtic will have been looking for some special treatment like a veto vote or something. Didn’t get it so chucked the toys out of the pram.

[chippy]

I imagine Celtic will have been looking for some special treatment like a veto vote or something. Didn’t get it so chucked the toys out of the pram.

Celtic would fancy topping that league so maybe they were against splitting the revenues more evenly?

[B.H.F.C]

Celtic would fancy topping that league so maybe they were against splitting the revenues more evenly?

Is there anything to suggest any revenues would be split evenly? I’m not sure there will be many (any?) leagues where that happens.

[hibbysam]

Some jump to suddenly be paying players £20k a week.

£900m, split equally over the 6 years, amounts to £7.5m a year for each team. However, we’d likely be receiving less than that as presumably it’d be based on league position and we wouldn’t be at the top end I wouldn’t think.

So deduct the TV money we wouldn’t be seeing, add in our additional costs (imagine it would cost the club a 7 figure sum over a season for travelling away to Europe every couple of weeks).

Best case scenario, initially, you are a few million quid better off a year. Aberdeen, for example, currently bring in a few million quid more than us each year but they’re not paying anyone £20k a week.

On McGinn, he reportedly left us for in excess of £20k a week and ended up on £60k odd a week when he signed his new contract.

Not saying it wouldn’t make us better if financially, but to think we suddenly end up paying that type of money is crazy IMO.

Let’s not try and talk sense on the proposals. Filling in corners 😂 boys falling over themselves to come play for hibs because we suddenly start paying players £20k per week, in the quest for what? A mid table Atlantic league finish that has zero benefits other than revenue (potentially, but probably not). Chances of UEFA buying into it are slim so likelihood of no European football, no domestic cups and the death of the domestic Scottish game.

I’d wager a pretty large bet that in 40 years time I’ll still be watching Hibs in a domestic Scottish league, competing with the same clubs.

[The Modfather]

The clubs left behind remain in a reorganised top Scottish League who then have the opportunity each year to be promoted into the newly created Atlantic league or whatever they call it.

Makes sense to me that the first year would be based on size of teams for financial reasons but then there is full opportunity to be relegated and promoted to and from the league's from then on.

I'd be keen for us to investigate something like that if it improved the standard of players and football we watch at Hibs.

Suppose you could argue that it would give us less chance of securing European cup football?

What about the financial hit they would have to take of not getting the away supports of the biggest clubs in the country that have left, and the drop in sponsorship and prize money that would lead to. Even if there was promotion the teams left behind would be, in most cases, little more than cannon fodder before getting relegated again given the disparity of the money they get in the SPL versus what the teams they would be up against have been getting in the European league.

[CMurdoch]

A non starter for Rangers and Celtic who would still be massive clubs compared to the rest so they wouldn't get the massive increased revenue they crave.

3rd biggest team would be Hammarby from Sweden who have average crowds of 24,000
4th AIK from Sweden who have average crowds of 19,000
Then you have Hibs & Hearts 5th & 6th after that.

So a non starter

[Smartie]

A non starter for Rangers and Celtic who would still be massive clubs compared to the rest so they wouldn't get the massive increased revenue they crave.

3rd biggest team would be Hammarby from Sweden who have average crowds of 24,000
4th AIK from Sweden who have average crowds of 19,000
Then you have Hibs & Hearts 5th & 6th after that.

So a non starter

Yeah.

There's probably somebody somewhere talking about TV revenues as if it will attract all sorts of new people to watch this interesting new league - which it wouldn't really, other than the folk who might have gone to an away game who then couldn't because it is too far away and in a really expensive country.

[CMurdoch]

Yeah.

There's probably somebody somewhere talking about TV revenues as if it will attract all sorts of new people to watch this interesting new league - which it wouldn't really, other than the folk who might have gone to an away game who then couldn't because it is too far away and in a really expensive country.

Even Belgium's biggest team Club Brugge only average crowds of 25,000

Celtic & Rangers will forever have their noses against the English Premiership window but will never be allowed in

[Ozyhibby]

A non starter for Rangers and Celtic who would still be massive clubs compared to the rest so they wouldn't get the massive increased revenue they crave.

3rd biggest team would be Hammarby from Sweden who have average crowds of 24,000
4th AIK from Sweden who have average crowds of 19,000
Then you have Hibs & Hearts 5th & 6th after that.

So a non starter

Moving from a TV market of 5m people to one of 25m people will obviously bring in larger media revenue as well a much bigger commercial revenues.
The only way some sort of change doesn’t come is if the owners of these clubs suddenly develop an emotional attachment to their domestic leagues.
The reason Celtic will have gone cold on this for now is only because they think it’s not quite big enough a market for them and they think there is a bigger move out there for them. Either way, change is on the way.


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[Ozyhibby]

Even Belgium's biggest team Club Brugge only average crowds of 25,000

Celtic & Rangers will forever have their noses against the English Premiership window but will never be allowed in

And this is why they are looking at this. Do you really believe that something like this won’t happen?


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[Hibee Mac]

What about the financial hit they would have to take of not getting the away supports of the biggest clubs in the country that have left, and the drop in sponsorship and prize money that would lead to. Even if there was promotion the teams left behind would be, in most cases, little more than cannon fodder before getting relegated again given the disparity of the money they get in the SPL versus what the teams they would be up against have been getting in the European league.A good point and something that would need to be thoroughly thought out and addressed before something like this went ahead.

The ones "left behind" so to speak would argue that it would leave a gap in revenue between the top and 2nd leagues far too great, maybe some would need to trickle down the league's a bit more to make it work? Not sure how it would work tbh but would need to address these kind of issues otherwise it should be a non starter

[easty]

And this is why they are looking at this. Do you really believe that something like this won’t happen?


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Yes

[easty]

Moving from a TV market of 5m people to one of 25m people will obviously bring in larger media revenue as well a much bigger commercial revenues.
The only way some sort of change doesn’t come is if the owners of these clubs suddenly develop an emotional attachment to their domestic leagues.
The reason Celtic will have gone cold on this for now is only because they think it’s not quite big enough a market for them and they think there is a bigger move out there for them. Either way, change is on the way.


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Just because there are more people in the countries combined, doesn’t mean more will watch.

Scotland has a tv market of 5m but how many will watch Hamilton v St Johnstone?

How many of the 25m potential viewers are going to want to watch Viking Stavanger against whatever crappy Irish team was being invited to the Atlantic league? Not many is my guess.

There will be loads who’ll watch the Old Firm game, but there already is.

[jgl07]

Just because there are more people in the countries combined, doesn’t mean more will watch.

Scotland has a tv market of 5m but how many will watch Hamilton v St Johnstone?

How many of the 25m potential viewers are going to want to watch Viking Stavanger against whatever crappy Irish team was being invited to the Atlantic league? Not many is my guess.

There will be loads who’ll watch the Old Firm game, but there already is.

And a hell of a lot more who will continue to watch the EPL, La Liga, Serie A, and the Bundesliga.

[Ozyhibby]

Just because there are more people in the countries combined, doesn’t mean more will watch.

Scotland has a tv market of 5m but how many will watch Hamilton v St Johnstone?

How many of the 25m potential viewers are going to want to watch Viking Stavanger against whatever crappy Irish team was being invited to the Atlantic league? Not many is my guess.

There will be loads who’ll watch the Old Firm game, but there already is.

They are more likely to watch once they get familiar with both teams after regularly playing each other. And if both these teams offer a higher quality match than Hamilton v St. Johnstone’s and the outcome affect Hibs similarly then I think more people will watch.


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[chippy]

They are more likely to watch once they get familiar with both teams after regularly playing each other. And if both these teams offer a higher quality match than Hamilton v St. Johnstone’s and the outcome affect Hibs similarly then I think more people will watch.


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1) The market in the proposal is 32 million
2) The quality of player / teams / competitiveness will determine viewing figures. Clubs involved will get the pick of the 32m market apart from players that might sign for top EPL/ Euro Super league if that happens( likely)
3) Future of leagues/ cups in Scotland initially secure but I suspect B teams of those involved in Atlantic league will be in the Scottish set up. Would help with attendances at smaller clubs.
4) Promotion/ Relegation from/ to domestic leagues. Probably might start that way but if the league is successful think there will be a demand for a second division that would probably accommodate say the top 10 clubs in Scotland in total across both divisions.
5) once up and running and successful I’d think a knock out cup competition would be added.

if successful revenues likely to rise. Will top clubs in this or Domestic leagues be allowed access to Euro Super League if that happens. That may be the determinant if something like this is to happen. If no access to Top Euro Leagues then can see Atlantic League definitely happening, plus Baltic, Eastern Europe leagues etc

[easty]

They are more likely to watch once they get familiar with both teams after regularly playing each other. And if both these teams offer a higher quality match than Hamilton v St. Johnstone’s and the outcome affect Hibs similarly then I think more people will watch.


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Are they? Based on what?

3.3m people watched Man Utd get humped 6-1 off Spurs a few weeks back on Sky. That's an infinitley more attractive game than anything in the Atlantic League would be. It's in the most watched league in the world. 3.3 million.

Anyone claiming there's a potential market of 25m for Hibs v Odd is living in dreamland. The viewing figures would be more or less the same as we get for Hibs games just now, it's not a lucrative market, it's not something a broadcaster is going to throw ridiculous amounts of money at.

We should be looking to improve the Scottish game as a starting point. The Atlantic League is not going to happen.

[superfurryhibby]

Are they? Based on what?

3.3m people watched Man Utd get humped 6-1 off Spurs a few weeks back on Sky. That's an infinitley more attractive game than anything in the Atlantic League would be. It's in the most watched league in the world. 3.3 million.

Anyone claiming there's a potential market of 25m for Hibs v Odd is living in dreamland. The viewing figures would be more or less the same as we get for Hibs games just now, it's not a lucrative market, it's not something a broadcaster is going to throw ridiculous amounts of money at.

We should be looking to improve the Scottish game as a starting point. The Atlantic League is not going to happen.

This is the kind of basic level reality check that tells me it isn’t going to happen ( the idea of a north sea league, with a token Irish team is ludicrous really).

[Ozyhibby]

Are they? Based on what?

3.3m people watched Man Utd get humped 6-1 off Spurs a few weeks back on Sky. That's an infinitley more attractive game than anything in the Atlantic League would be. It's in the most watched league in the world. 3.3 million.

Anyone claiming there's a potential market of 25m for Hibs v Odd is living in dreamland. The viewing figures would be more or less the same as we get for Hibs games just now, it's not a lucrative market, it's not something a broadcaster is going to throw ridiculous amounts of money at.

We should be looking to improve the Scottish game as a starting point. The Atlantic League is not going to happen.

I’m not saying 25m people will watch a game. I’m saying that’s the size of the TV market.[emoji23]


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[Ozyhibby]

This is the kind of basic level reality check that tells me it isn’t going to happen ( the idea of a north sea league, with a token Irish team is ludicrous really).

Unless your saying that the whole times article is fabricated then very serious people at a lot of clubs are seriously considering it along with large investment banks.
You can write it if if you like but I think the potential sums of money involved will be enough to tempt the owners to go for it.


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[Since90+2]

It's dreamland stuff. Would never work for multiple reasons.

[blackpoolhibs]

Never gonna happen, Hibs will be playing Hamilton and the likes well after i've gone to push the daisies up.

[easty]

Unless your saying that the whole times article is fabricated then very serious people at a lot of clubs are seriously considering it along with large investment banks.
You can write it if if you like but I think the potential sums of money involved will be enough to tempt the owners to go for it.


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Nobody is saying it's fabricated.

Neither is this one, from over 20 years ago - https://www.theguardian.com/football/2000/mar/01/newsstory.sport

It's just not going to happen.

[superfurryhibby]

Unless your saying that the whole times article is fabricated then very serious people at a lot of clubs are seriously considering it along with large investment banks.
You can write it if if you like but I think the potential sums of money involved will be enough to tempt the owners to go for it.


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I’m saying that Doyle ( the owner of Shelbourne Rovers) has a lot to gain, but every other team less so. As the article said, the idea had been mooted for 20 years. I take the 900 million money mentioned and JP Morgan backing with a large pinch of salt.

I do think there will be changes in how European football is structured and that teams like Hibs will potentially have a part to play, but it won’t be in a league consisting of teams from Norway, Sweden, Denmark and League of Ireland.

[Since90+2]

So in this fantasy land idea are the Scandinavian teams changing to winter football or are we moving to match them? Don't fancy Trondheim away on a Wednesday night in the middle of January much.

[Dr What If?]

I think this would be great for our game, stir up some of the little tin-pot dictators we have in the Scottish game. Should change the name to the Viking League, stuff celic let them do what they want? This is the way ahead all for such ideas.

I really like that name :greengrin....it would give the league an identity that the fans could buy into. Selfishly just looking at Hibs (though you could throw in Hearts and Aberdeen as well), we suffer badly from being in the Scottish league. Big club but not big enough to challenge the OF and over 50% of our games against small town teams. Result is our crowds are always going to be below our potential and revenues mean we are unfortunately competing with English league 1 and 2 teams in the player market.

If marketed right it has potential....Malmo, Gothemborg, Brondy, Copenhagan, Molde, Rosenborg, etc......fantastic games and yes, much more interest than being in a league servicing a population of just 5m.

Issue comes from the teams left behind though, Dundee Utd, St Mirren, Killie, etc....they depend on playing the OF, us, etc....take that away and where are the crowds? The financial gap will lead to clubs spending big to get in the new league....it could be the death of a few for various reasons.....also, what if its us that fails to make the cut? The value of the Scottish league would plummet, it would not be unlikely if half the premier league teams would be forced into part time football.

Regarding Celtic pulling out.....I'm just guessing they've done their sums. Cut in the share of prize money, threat to annual CL participation, greater competition for the title, less clout....for all the benefits there will be more negatives for them than any other top 5 club.

[Pagan Hibernia]

I really like that name :greengrin....it would give the league an identity that the fans could buy into. Selfishly just looking at Hibs (though you could throw in Hearts and Aberdeen as well), we suffer badly from being in the Scottish league. Big club but not big enough to challenge the OF and over 50% of our games against small town teams. Result is our crowds are always going to be below our potential and revenues mean we are unfortunately competing with English league 1 and 2 teams in the player market.

If marketed right it has potential....Malmo, Gothemborg, Brondy, Copenhagan, Molde, Rosenborg, etc......fantastic games and yes, much more interest than being in a league servicing a population of just 5m.

Issue comes from the teams left behind though, Dundee Utd, St Mirren, Killie, etc....they depend on playing the OF, us, etc....take that away and where are the crowds? The financial gap will lead to clubs spending big to get in the new league....it could be the death of a few for various reasons.....also, what if its us that fails to make the cut? The value of the Scottish league would plummet, it would not be unlikely if half the premier league teams would be forced into part time football.

Regarding Celtic pulling out.....I'm just guessing they've done their sums. Cut in the share of prize money, threat to annual CL participation, greater competition for the title, less clout....for all the benefits there will be more negatives for them than any other top 5 club.


your third paragraph sums up most of my concerns. We would be shafting Scottish football. That won’t matter to some people but it matters to me. And you’re right, assuming the Scottish top flight becomes a feeder league for the new set up, if we get relegated we’re screwed ourselves. David Conn wrote a great book a while back (‘The Beautiful Game?’) where he describes the setting up of the Premier League in England in 1992. Obviously the Big Five at the time were the driving force behind it for obvious reasons but Conn comments that the smaller clubs who were equally desperate to break away and grab the cash (likes of Wimbledon and Norwich City) never once seemed to consider the prospect that they might be relegated and the financial devastation that that may cause.

I don’t know. Our Scottish cup winners got a crowd of 13k when they played brondby in the Europa league. We got 16k against Molde two years later with one of our most exciting teams in recent years. Why do people think Easter Road will be bursting at the seams for these teams in a different league? If the whole argument is based on the belief that Hibs will be awash with cash and therefore have top quality on the pitch then that’s a massive gamble to take. What if the expected finances don’t materialise. Or if the league goes belly up after a year or two.

we would risk alienating and losing Hibs fans. And that’s no problem for the man uniteds of this world where any fan will just be replaced. Every Hibs fan lost is a loss for the club.

[Since90+2]

your third paragraph sums up most of my concerns. We would be shafting Scottish football. That won’t matter to some people but it matters to me. And you’re right, assuming the Scottish top flight becomes a feeder league for the new set up, if we get relegated we’re screwed ourselves. David Conn wrote a great book a while back (‘The Beautiful Game?’) where he describes the setting up of the Premier League in England in 1992. Obviously the Big Five at the time were the driving force behind it for obvious reasons but Conn comments that the smaller clubs who were equally desperate to break away and grab the cash (likes of Wimbledon and Norwich City) never once seemed to consider the prospect that they might be relegated and the financial devastation that that may cause.

I don’t know. Our Scottish cup winners got a crowd of 13k when they played brondby in the Europa league. We got 16k against Molde two years later with one of our most exciting teams in recent years. Why do people think Easter Road will be bursting at the seams for these teams in a different league? If the whole argument is based on the belief that Hibs will be awash with cash and therefore have top quality on the pitch then that’s a massive gamble to take. What if the expected finances don’t materialise. Or if the league goes belly up after a year or two.

we would risk alienating and losing Hibs fans. And that’s no problem for the man uniteds of this world where any fan will just be replaced. Every Hibs fan lost is a loss for the club.

The answer is they won't be. None of those teams are big enough names as you have pointed out with the attendance figures when we played them recently in Europe.

The only teams we would get full houses against would be the 3 big Dutch sides and as they don't appear to be involved now it's a non starter.

We've played Malmö, Molde and Brondby in recent years and none have been close to a sell out.

[chippy]

your third paragraph sums up most of my concerns. We would be shafting Scottish football. That won’t matter to some people but it matters to me. And you’re right, assuming the Scottish top flight becomes a feeder league for the new set up, if we get relegated we’re screwed ourselves. David Conn wrote a great book a while back (‘The Beautiful Game?’) where he describes the setting up of the Premier League in England in 1992. Obviously the Big Five at the time were the driving force behind it for obvious reasons but Conn comments that the smaller clubs who were equally desperate to break away and grab the cash (likes of Wimbledon and Norwich City) never once seemed to consider the prospect that they might be relegated and the financial devastation that that may cause.

I don’t know. Our Scottish cup winners got a crowd of 13k when they played brondby in the Europa league. We got 16k against Molde two years later with one of our most exciting teams in recent years. Why do people think Easter Road will be bursting at the seams for these teams in a different league? If the whole argument is based on the belief that Hibs will be awash with cash and therefore have top quality on the pitch then that’s a massive gamble to take. What if the expected finances don’t materialise. Or if the league goes belly up after a year or two.

we would risk alienating and losing Hibs fans. And that’s no problem for the man uniteds of this world where any fan will just be replaced. Every Hibs fan lost is a loss for the club.

Sure there is an element of risk involved in this and yes it does leave the rest of the pro clubs in Scotland at risk. If this or something similar gets major financial backing then I’d assume these risks have been considered. Realistically how many other aspirational pro Cubs are there in Scotland? Maybe a 2nd tier league could accommodate another 4 or 5 of the next biggest- perhaps organised on a regional basis or as a full blown 2nd division.
if Hearts , Aberdeen, Celtic eventually and Rangers go for it, Hibs have to frankly or we are done. Reorganisation of some sort is highly likely to happen and it’s better we’re in the discussions, planning helping to shape and not closing our eyes and ears to it.

[ancient hibee]

And when it all goes belly up presumably Hibs will be welcomed back into the Scottish set up? The same Scottish set up who will previously refused permission for Hibs players to take part in a rival league.

[hibeedonald]

If the atlantic league was formed I think it could potentially do very well and percieved smaller teams/countries may have a growing home-interest if the quality of football was better, but, other leagues would do the same e.g. Spain, Portugal and France or an elite euro league and these would supercede anything the atlantic league produces.

Would prefer to see us merge into a UK league or Sco/Eng league with all Scottish teams joining the pyramid system in some form. Yes we would be unlikely to win anything but week in week out the quality would be undeniably better.

Hibs, Hearts and maybe Aberdeen are large enough teams to get into the English Premier League and at worst playing in the championship with the additional investment / TV money / fan revenue.

[AgentDaleCooper]

anything like this that doesn't involve ajax, psv and feyenoord is just going to be another league for the ugly sisters to piss all over.

[superfurryhibby]

If the atlantic league was formed I think it could potentially do very well and percieved smaller teams/countries may have a growing home-interest if the quality of football was better, but, other leagues would do the same e.g. Spain, Portugal and France or an elite euro league and these would supercede anything the atlantic league produces.

Would prefer to see us merge into a UK league or Sco/Eng league with all Scottish teams joining the pyramid system in some form. Yes we would be unlikely to win anything but week in week out the quality would be undeniably better.

Hibs, Hearts and maybe Aberdeen are large enough teams to get into the English Premier League and at worst playing in the championship with the additional investment / TV money / fan revenue.

Better quality football, but unlikely to ever win anything.......you can keep that one, not for me.

[chippy]

And when it all goes belly up presumably Hibs will be welcomed back into the Scottish set up? The same Scottish set up who will previously refused permission for Hibs players to take part in a rival league.

I don’t think Hibs will be on their own, they would be doing this with at least 4 others maybe more if there is a 2nd tier. There are so many assumptions on both sides of the argument that it’s impossible to say it will/won’t work. Will probably depend on your personal bias. I find it interesting that some of the counter arguments that this Celtic / Viking model won’t attract tv audiences because everyone watches EPL or ECL. I sure I’ve also read on this forum many posters who have or considered switching off coverage of the EPL and ECL. I’m an optimist and think the Scottish market has matured many years ago. We need a bigger market and platform to grow to our potential, which I think is to be a large big city club attracting 25-30k crowds regularly in a competitive league with higher quality players.

[chippy]

If the atlantic league was formed I think it could potentially do very well and percieved smaller teams/countries may have a growing home-interest if the quality of football was better, but, other leagues would do the same e.g. Spain, Portugal and France or an elite euro league and these would supercede anything the atlantic league produces.

Would prefer to see us merge into a UK league or Sco/Eng league with all Scottish teams joining the pyramid system in some form. Yes we would be unlikely to win anything but week in week out the quality would be undeniably better.

Hibs, Hearts and maybe Aberdeen are large enough teams to get into the English Premier League and at worst playing in the championship with the additional investment / TV money / fan revenue.

I’m not fussed either a UK league or an Atlantic league would suit me and Hibs I reckon .. Especially if the top EPL sides pop off with the old firm to franchised Euro leagues

[Gatecrasher]

I'm a fan of hibs and scottish football. I would have no interest in this, I'm a little dispointed that hibs would even entertain the idea to be honest.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm a fan of hibs and scottish football. I would have no interest in this, I'm a little dispointed that hibs would even entertain the idea to be honest.

What should we do? Just let the others go and we just stay in what’s left of the Scottish league?


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[Since90+2]

What should we do? Just let the others go and we just stay in what’s left of the Scottish league?


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You are talking as though this thing is definitely happening. It's not.

It's been talked about for around 20 years now.

[Michael]

You are talking as though this thing is definitely happening. It's not.

It's been talked about for around 20 years now.

It probably will happen in some form eventually. Hibs should be a part of it if/when it does happen.

[Snedz]

I’m not fussed either a UK league or an Atlantic league would suit me and Hibs I reckon .. Especially if the top EPL sides pop off with the old firm to franchised Euro leagues
That probably will happen within this decade in all reality with colt sides left behind to give them a token English/Scottish foothold.

Atlantic leagues and British leagues/Cups maybe regional etc will be floated and promoted as consolation to clubs left behind. Whether it happens or not is probably debatable. Hibs should keep an open mind and thoroughly scrutinise every option which I'm sure they will.

[matty_f]

Presumably the Atlantic League supplements rather than replaces the Scottish Premiership? I don't think I'd like to see Hibs exclusively in an Atlantic League, but if we had that running at the same time as the Premiership I think it would be brilliant - extra revenue, club develops, variety of opponents, raises the profile of the club etc...

Would be a terrible decision to be on the outside looking in if it went ahead, far better to be in from the start and get established from the outset as a mainstay of the league.

[Since90+2]

Presumably the Atlantic League supplements rather than replaces the Scottish Premiership? I don't think I'd like to see Hibs exclusively in an Atlantic League, but if we had that running at the same time as the Premiership I think it would be brilliant - extra revenue, club develops, variety of opponents, raises the profile of the club etc...

Would be a terrible decision to be on the outside looking in if it went ahead, far better to be in from the start and get established from the outset as a mainstay of the league.

I don't see how that could happen unless Celtic and Rangers did not take take part in Uefa competitions.

There's no way they could play Scottish Premiership, Atlantic League, Europa or Champions League and Scottish Cup.

[DH1875]

I take it everyone who is ok with this will be ok when the Dutch and Belgians come on board and Scotland only get 3 teams (Celtic, rangers, aberdeen) and we are left behind.

[Ozyhibby]

I take it everyone who is ok with this will be ok when the Dutch and Belgians come on board and Scotland only get 3 teams (Celtic, rangers, aberdeen) and we are left behind.

What should Hibs do? Pull out now to avoid disappointment later?


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[Ozyhibby]

You are talking as though this thing is definitely happening. It's not.

It's been talked about for around 20 years now.

20 years ago UEFA were dead against any cross border leagues. That is no longer the case.


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[Since90+2]

20 years ago UEFA were dead against any cross border leagues. That is no longer the case.


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This is not a cross border league for us though. We don't border any of the countries proposed.

[MWHIBBIES]

20 years ago UEFA were dead against any cross border leagues. That is no longer the case.


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Pretty sure they still are. Its FIFA pushing for these things

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Ten years from now we will have a Scandi Premiership, a Low countries combined, Poland/Ukraine and a central Euro league Austria Switzerland Czechs Hungary and the like.

What's Scotland to do?

[The Spaceman]

I take it everyone who is ok with this will be ok when the Dutch and Belgians come on board and Scotland only get 3 teams (Celtic, rangers, aberdeen) and we are left behind.

They would much rather have the country’s two capital teams and their associated rivalry than Aberdeen. Both clubs are a much more attractive long-term prospect for growth. Aberdeen are in relative glory years and still have lower attendances than us. That said I think all 5 of the biggest teams would go.

[LancsHibs]

To be honest I quite like the sound of this, there would be some really great away trips:party:No disrespect but it beats playing Hamilton, Livingston etc on a regular basis.
Would be dead against a closed shop, some form of promotion/relegation mechanism would have to be in place otherwise the new league would also become stale and it would kill the national leagues left behind.

[chippy]

Presumably the Atlantic League supplements rather than replaces the Scottish Premiership? I don't think I'd like to see Hibs exclusively in an Atlantic League, but if we had that running at the same time as the Premiership I think it would be brilliant - extra revenue, club develops, variety of opponents, raises the profile of the club etc...

Would be a terrible decision to be on the outside looking in if it went ahead, far better to be in from the start and get established from the outset as a mainstay of the league.

I think that would be ideal. Make the spl 14/16 teams and play Atlantic too. A team in Atlantic , A/B team in spl prem

[chippy]

To be honest I quite like the sound of this, there would be some really great away trips:party:No disrespect but it beats playing Hamilton, Livingston etc on a regular basis.
Would be dead against a closed shop, some form of promotion/relegation mechanism would have to be in place otherwise the new league would also become stale and it would kill the national leagues left behind.

Agreed a 2nd full division , then you drop back to domestic league. Personally I’d add 3/4 teams from Finland and 1 from Iceland. Another couple from Ireland and your covering all the major cities in Nordic/ Celtic world. Market up to 38 million population

[chippy]

They would much rather have the country’s two capital teams and their associated rivalry than Aberdeen. Both clubs are a much more attractive long-term prospect for growth. Aberdeen are in relative glory years and still have lower attendances than us. That said I think all 5 of the biggest teams would go.

If the Belgians , Dutch join , fine let’s have a 2nd division. Revenues would be suitably boosted I’m sure.

[chippy]

To be honest I quite like the sound of this, there would be some really great away trips:party:No disrespect but it beats playing Hamilton, Livingston etc on a regular basis.
Would be dead against a closed shop, some form of promotion/relegation mechanism would have to be in place otherwise the new league would also become stale and it would kill the national leagues left behind.

Away games just a Ferry ride away. Friday overnight to Gothenburg, Copenhagen, Oslo, Stavanger , Helsinki

[The Modfather]

I think that would be ideal. Make the spl 14/16 teams and play Atlantic too. A team in Atlantic , A/B team in spl prem

Think the majority of SPL clubs would tell us where to go. Same as the general consensus’s seems to be about Celtc & Rangers leaving for England but keeping b teams in Scotland.

[chippy]

This is not a cross border league for us though. We don't border any of the countries proposed.

Pedant alert

[B.H.F.C]

Away games just a Ferry ride away. Friday overnight to Gothenburg, Copenhagen, Oslo, Stavanger , Helsinki

Nice and affordable every couple of weeks eh

[Dr What If?]

They would much rather have the country’s two capital teams and their associated rivalry than Aberdeen. Both clubs are a much more attractive long-term prospect for growth. Aberdeen are in relative glory years and still have lower attendances than us. That said I think all 5 of the biggest teams would go.

If your Scandanvian and in your 50s/60s then Hibs and Aberdeen may be names your familiar with, Dundee Utd as well. If your in your 40s then maybe its the New Firm and the OF....30s and younger only the OF would be considered a draw.....no one will be looking at our attendances with any great detail and not too many will be excited about anyone outside of the OF.

Im sure the same arguments will be happening in Scandinavia too....who is excited about playing Hibs, what about national leagues, chances of winning things, etc? End of the day if the 5 leading clubs of the leagues in question believe that this will be financially beneficial then it will be pursued.

[chippy]

Better quality football, but unlikely to ever win anything.......you can keep that one, not for me.

Hibs havent won prem for 68 years, when’s it happening again. Could still have Scottish cup and Atlantic Cup . B team in spl and league cup

[Pagan Hibernia]

Hibs havent won prem for 68 years, when’s it happening again. Could still have Scottish cup and Atlantic Cup . B team in spl and league cup

next season :aok:

[Since90+2]

Pedant alert

It's not actually.

Cross border leagues are being discussed because they make sense. Countries that border each other tend to have close social and cultural ties which makes having a joint league more viable. You have the rivalry aspect. You will have lots of people from the neighboring countries living in each other towns and cities meaning games have more meaning. Travel is easier and cheaper for both clubs and supporters. The weather tends to be very similar across border nations meaning schedules are easier to put together.

This notion of putting countries together that have little or no social or cultural ties and thinking you can create a league is nonsense. We've now had the suggestion of Finnish and Icelandic teams ffs.

[A Hi-Bee]

It's not actually.

Cross border leagues are being discussed because they make sense. Countries that border each other tend to have close social and cultural ties which makes having a joint league more viable. You have the rivalry aspect. You will have lots of people from the neighboring countries living in each other towns and cities meaning games have more meaning. Travel is easier and cheaper for both clubs and supporters. The weather tends to be very similar across border nations meaning schedules are easier to put together.

This notion of putting countries together that have little or no social or cultural ties and thinking you can create a league is nonsense. We've now had the suggestion of Finnish and Icelandic teams ffs.

Think you may find in history that Scotland has/had a very close association with the Viking, as much or more than with the English.
It's the way forward :thumbsup:

[Since90+2]

Think you may find in history that Scotland has/had a very close association with the Viking, as much or more than with the English.
It's the way forward :thumbsup:

No we don't.

[DH1875]

If the Belgians , Dutch join , fine let’s have a 2nd division. Revenues would be suitably boosted I’m sure.

Oh great. Not only are we in a nonsense league. We are now in the 2nd division of that league. I'm out.

[Ozyhibby]

Oh great. Not only are we in a nonsense league. We are now in the 2nd division of that league. I'm out.

You were never in.[emoji23]


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[superfurryhibby]

Hibs havent won prem for 68 years, when’s it happening again. Could still have Scottish cup and Atlantic Cup . B team in spl and league cup

You may have forgotten that Scottish Cup in 2016, or the League Cups of 2007, 1991 and 1972? I remember all of them and went to three of them.

Joining the second tier of some half baked notional competition, lol. No limits eh.

[A Hi-Bee]

No we don't.

Oh yes we do!
:thumbsup:

[chippy]

You may have forgotten that Scottish Cup in 2016, or the League Cups of 2007, 1991 and 1972? I remember all of them and went to three of them.

Joining the second tier of some half baked notional competition, lol. No limits eh.

Never forgotten but our A/ B team can win them after we join the Atlantic League

[Snedz]

No we don't.

Correct. If he read up on his history he'd find that Scots/Picts/Celts ended up defeating routing the Viking Danes in particular. There's some famous ancient battle sites around the Angus area.

[A Hi-Bee]

Correct. If he read up on his history he'd find that Scots/Picts/Celts ended up defeating routing the Viking Danes in particular. There's some famous ancient battle sites around the Angus area.

I am sorry to have to pisch in your chips but it would appear that the genetic evidence is a wee bit more accurate than your wee history lesson.
Genes don't lie, forensics experts according to the Erasmus University Medical Center can now tell from which part of Europe, an individual is from just by looking at DNA. British and Irish are firstly closely related to each other due to their insular location, then their closest cousins are Dutch, Danes and Norwegians. This makes perfect sense, even on historical basis the newer invaders to Britain came from those lands. It doesn't mean they're identical, they are closest to them. As far as hair color goes, we have to note that red hair is the most recessive trait for hair colors, thus it would make perfect sense that it hides under brown or blonde hair makes reddish-browns and reddish blonde tones common. Brown hair of various shades, light eyes specially blue and a pale skin is the commonest colouring among Celtic people of the Isles, blonde hair is secondary but is still more common than red hair. The frequency of red hair is the highest in Europe, even higher than in Scandinavia and Baltic countries. The frequency of skin type I is highest in Ireland and Scotland. In northern Scotland, the level of blondism is higher than in the rest of the British Isles, because 60 per cent of the Y-chromosome is Norwegian in origin and the rest is from Ancient Briton/Celtic. Nordics are not only Germanic, some are Celtic, Baltic and Slavic. The prime minister of Ireland, Enda Kenny has fair hair similar to that of the chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/europe/1891075-scotland-celtic-scandinavian-country-8.html

:cb:greengrin

[Snedz]

I am sorry to have to pisch in your chips but it would appear that the genetic evidence is a wee bit more accurate than your wee history lesson.
Genes don't lie, forensics experts according to the Erasmus University Medical Center can now tell from which part of Europe, an individual is from just by looking at DNA. British and Irish are firstly closely related to each other due to their insular location, then their closest cousins are Dutch, Danes and Norwegians. This makes perfect sense, even on historical basis the newer invaders to Britain came from those lands. It doesn't mean they're identical, they are closest to them. As far as hair color goes, we have to note that red hair is the most recessive trait for hair colors, thus it would make perfect sense that it hides under brown or blonde hair makes reddish-browns and reddish blonde tones common. Brown hair of various shades, light eyes specially blue and a pale skin is the commonest colouring among Celtic people of the Isles, blonde hair is secondary but is still more common than red hair. The frequency of red hair is the highest in Europe, even higher than in Scandinavia and Baltic countries. The frequency of skin type I is highest in Ireland and Scotland. In northern Scotland, the level of blondism is higher than in the rest of the British Isles, because 60 per cent of the Y-chromosome is Norwegian in origin and the rest is from Ancient Briton/Celtic. Nordics are not only Germanic, some are Celtic, Baltic and Slavic. The prime minister of Ireland, Enda Kenny has fair hair similar to that of the chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany.

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/forum/europe/1891075-scotland-celtic-scandinavian-country-8.html

:cb:greengrin

None of which changes the fact that the Scots/Picts/Celts eventually defeated the Norse Viking Dane invaders. There are ancient battle sites around the Angus area. The Danes were emphatically routed. Fact.

[Ozyhibby]

None of which changes the fact that the Scots/Picts/Celts eventually defeated the Norse Viking Dane invaders. There are ancient battle sites around the Angus area. The Danes were emphatically routed. Fact.

We’re going to need some sort of sporting competition among these nations to sort this out once and for all.


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[Snedz]

We’re going to need some sort of sporting competition among these nations to sort this out once and for all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It was sorted out decisively enough around a thousand years ago. The Scots/Picts/Celts defeated the Dane Viking invaders. I was putting the guy straight that's all.

[Just Alf]

We’re going to need some sort of sporting competition among these nations to sort this out once and for all.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkSounds a plan .... what could we call it?

Atlantic something or other?



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[Snedz]

Sounds a plan .... what could we call it?

Atlantic something or other?



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The Ozy plan to break up the UK.

He has to do better than some mentalist Atlantic Viking League shirley?

[Dr What If?]

It was sorted out decisively enough around a thousand years ago. The Scots/Picts/Celts defeated the Dane Viking invaders. I was putting the guy straight that's all.
Not all Vikings were Danish or invaders.....take the largest clan in Scotland, the Gunn clan (responsible for Wilson, Williamson, Will). The name comes from Gunnar, Norwegian settlers that integrated and interbred with the indigenous population. Despite the rather fierce reputation, many Vikings were peaceful, they were traders and farmers.
That said the point stands that that was a very long time ago, language and geography makes this less than straight forward. If we were to merge with another league then the English and Irish leagues makes far more sense.....problem is that the English product is way way ahead of ours, the OF with their current squads would probably be relegated if they were to be put into the premier league.....goodness knows where we would land?
Where a Scandinavian link is attractive is that the leagues are of a similar level, a much more even playing field.

[Snedz]

Not all Vikings were Danish or invaders.....take the largest clan in Scotland, the Gunn clan (responsible for Wilson, Williamson, Will). The name comes from Gunnar, Norwegian settlers that integrated and interbred with the indigenous population. Despite the rather fierce reputation, many Vikings were peaceful, they were traders and farmers.
That said the point stands that that was a very long time ago, language and geography makes this less than straight forward. If we were to merge with another league then the English and Irish leagues makes far more sense.....problem is that the English product is way way ahead of ours, the OF with their current squads would probably be relegated if they were to be put into the premier league.....goodness knows where we would land?
Where a Scandinavian link is attractive is that the leagues are of a similar level, a much more even playing field.

The Gunns were traitors of Scotland.

[Dr What If?]

The Gunns were traitors of Scotland.
If you are referring to the 1745 uprising there were Gunn's on both sides though the chief was anti Stuart. A Gunn also gave us 'Flower of Scotland', our current national anthem and steeped in national sentiment.

[Just Alf]

The Ozy plan to break up the UK.

He has to do better than some mentalist Atlantic Viking League shirley?I'm trying to work out if I'm on wrong thread or you were whooshed.....

I've had a few beers watching the footy and heading off to bed so I'll go with the wrong thread theory :greengrin

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[Snedz]

If you are referring to the 1745 uprising there were Gunn's on both sides though the chief was anti Stuart. A Gunn also gave us 'Flower of Scotland', our current national anthem and steeped in national sentiment.

Yeah ok Will, Willem William, whatever your name is.

[Snedz]

I'm trying to work out if I'm on wrong thread or you were whooshed.....

I've had a few beers watching the footy and heading off to bed so I'll go with the wrong thread theory :greengrin

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Maybe its the pro Viking anti Scots/Picts/Celts who are on the wrong thread's. Dearie me.

[Just Alf]

Goodo... NN, I'm off to bed!

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[chippy]

The Ozy plan to break up the UK.

He has to do better than some mentalist Atlantic Viking League shirley?

Count me in if this is a covert plan to break up the UK. Scotland had very strong trading links to the Scandinavian countries and still does ( EU/ EFTA ). Scots want that to continue. Poltically Scandinavia has a very strong social democratic/ democratic socialist traditions , similar to Scotland.
Seems Scandics are more interested in a collaborative football set up than our nearest land neighbours down south .

[Ozyhibby]

Would be nice to hear a bit more about this from our fans rep on the board. If we are actively looking to play in another league it would be nice to know a bit more about it? Obviously there are confidentiality issues on some stuff but as the people organising it have now gone public, maybe we should learn a bit more about things. I’m pretty sure other proposals will be coming forward soon.


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[Keith_M]

Can we drop the stupid chat and stick to the important topic....


Did the Vikings really wear horny helmets?

[Eyrie]

Can we drop the stupid chat and stick to the important topic....


Did the Vikings really wear horny helmets?

They did. My source is the esteemed British Army officer Captain E Blackadder who said "There hasn't been a war run this badly since Olaf the Hairy, King of all the Vikings, ordered 80,000 battle helmets with the horns on the inside."

[Green Man]

The Gunns were traitors of Scotland.

Just because Angus chose to play for England instead? That’s a bit harsh.

[chippy]

Would be nice to hear a bit more about this from our fans rep on the board. If we are actively looking to play in another league it would be nice to know a bit more about it? Obviously there are confidentiality issues on some stuff but as the people organising it have now gone public, maybe we should learn a bit more about things. I’m pretty sure other proposals will be coming forward soon.


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I’m sure you’ll get a response soon......

[superfurryhibby]

Would be nice to hear a bit more about this from our fans rep on the board. If we are actively looking to play in another league it would be nice to know a bit more about it? Obviously there are confidentiality issues on some stuff but as the people organising it have now gone public, maybe we should learn a bit more about things. I’m pretty sure other proposals will be coming forward soon.


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The article seem clear that this is all based on the rather speculative work of one organisation and there's no suggestion it had any support or participation from any of the clubs? They sent proposals to the clubs, no more than that. Why would our board comment on other proposals or ideas that are not in the public domain, in terms of other projects?




I’m sure you’ll get a response soon......

Trying too hard methinks, funny though.

[A Hi-Bee]

Man! even donald Trump would not be able to deny his DNA yet some on here can (at least one), amazing to think that some battle fought all them years ago (who does that sound like) got rid of all the Viking DNA, so we have none left just Scottish and whae's like us? nabody they are awe deid eh!
Next the same guy will be telling me as he puts me straight? that the Romans never ruled over three quarters of Scotland or that Cromwell never ruled over Scotland, talk about twisting and airbrushing history to suit an agenda, (someone else done that about 90 years ago) we all know how that one ended.
A Viking League would be a great idea and I would expect a forward thinking club like Hibs to be in at the start.
:cb

[superfurryhibby]

Man! even donald Trump would not be able to deny his DNA yet some on here can (at least one), amazing to think that some battle fought all them years ago (who does that sound like) got rid of all the Viking DNA, so we have none left just Scottish and whae's like us? nabody they are awe deid eh!
Next the same guy will be telling me as he puts me straight? that the Romans never ruled over three quarters of Scotland or that Cromwell never ruled over Scotland, talk about twisting and airbrushing history to suit an agenda, (someone else done that about 90 years ago) we all know how that one ended.
A Viking League would be a great idea and I would expect a forward thinking club like Hibs to be in at the start.
:cb

The Romans never went near 3/4 of Scotland. Fact.

[A Hi-Bee]

The Romans never went near 3/4 of Scotland. Fact.

One small semantic was incorrect-my apologies good sir, the rest of the comment was pretty much spot on though eh!, strange that you would pick out some small part and emphasise “fact”
The Antonine Wall only went as far as the line, what would become Edinburgh and Glasgow. So they only conquered around one third of the land.

Don’t change the fact that this would be a fine idea.

Bring on the Viking league.

Of course at the end of the day one would have to ask what did the Romans ever do for us........
I think the original comment was to show that we do have a lot in common with our near Scandic countries, a "Fact" which was very much denied.

:cb

[superfurryhibby]

One small semantic was incorrect-my apologies good sir, the rest of the comment was pretty much spot on though eh!, strange that you would pick out some small part and emphasise “fact”
The Antonine Wall only went as far as the line, what would become Edinburgh and Glasgow. So they only conquered around one third of the land.

Don’t change the fact that this would be a fine idea.

Bring on the Viking league.

Of course at the end of the day one would have to ask what did the Romans ever do for us........
I think the original comment was to show that we do have a lot in common with our near Scandic countries, a "Fact" which was very much denied.

:cb

The Romans held the Antonine Wall for no more than 20 years. It was a hugely expensive white elephant. They visited Scotland mob handed three times, in the 350 years they held the province of Brittania. Two campaigns in 83 and 84 AD, Again whilst building the Antonine Wall, c 140-160 AD, and again in 209-210 season AD. There was never any semblance of Romanised civilian life, it was always a military venture. Invasion of Caledonia was never an easy away fixture for the Romans.

Don’t be sensitive about someone merely pointing out the inaccuracy of part of your statement.

I like history, that is all. :aok:

And the idea is of Scottish- Scandic league is still utter nonsense.

[chippy]

The Romans held the Antonine Wall for no more than 20 years. It was a hugely expensive white elephant. They visited Scotland mob handed three times, in the 350 years they held the province of Brittania. Two campaigns in 83 and 84 AD, Again whilst building the Antonine Wall, c 140-160 AD, and again in 209-210 season AD. There was never any semblance of Romanised civilian life, it was always a military venture. Invasion of Caledonia was never an easy away fixture for the Romans.

Don’t be sensitive about someone merely pointing out the inaccuracy of part of your statement.

I like history, that is all. :aok:

And the idea is of Scottish- Scandic league is still utter nonsense.

So nonsensical that A major world bank were apparently going to invest about 1 billion Euros in it mind you.

That being said, 1) would you be inclined to support a version that included the Dutch and Belgians if Hibs were in a 1st or more likely 2nd tier. Or a British Isles league with Hibs in a likely 2nd tier?

[superfurryhibby]

So nonsensical that A major world bank were apparently going to invest about 1 billion Euros in it mind you.

That being said, 1) would you be inclined to support a version that included the Dutch and Belgians if Hibs were in a 1st or more likely 2nd tier. Or a British Isles league with Hibs in a likely 2nd tier?

Aye, I believe that story right enough.

There will never be a British League, of that I’m certain.

A league with the likes of Dutch and Belgian sides, would be more appealing, but I’ll not hold my breath. This stuff has been mooted for years, it’s never going to happen.

[A Hi-Bee]

Aye, I believe that story right enough.

There will never be a British League, of that I’m certain.

A league with the likes of Dutch and Belgian sides, would be more appealing, but I’ll not hold my breath. This stuff has been mooted for years, it’s never going to happen.

A Hanseatic league, or a Baltic/Viking League is the way forward, bring it on.
We can leave the Romans as they never done much for us, although we could also join with the Russins as they do say that most of our DNA came from Southern Russia, a wee place called Scythia if we go back far enough.
A certain small American Bank is having a very large building built next to the Radisson Blue in Glasgow, called J.P.Morgan or something.
Change will happen and I just hope my club Hibernian is in the front of this change.
:cb

[offshorehibby]

I had my DNA done a couple through Scotland's DNA. Being a typical red headed Scot/Irish my DNA showed the following.

My father line
YDNA haplogroup of*R1b-S1136 is that of the Eoganachta
Eoganachta Dynasty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta

S1136 marker, from dominant European haplogroup of R1b. Most common group of Y linages in Western Europe, can be found in Russia and further east amongst Uighur people of Western China.

Haplogroup of R1b
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b

Uighur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs


Mother line
My subtype: U5b2b1a1

My mtDNA group: U (Arose around shores of Persian Gulf 54,000BC)

[chippy]

I had my DNA done a couple through Scotland's DNA. Being a typical red headed Scot/Irish my DNA showed the following.

My father line
YDNA haplogroup of*R1b-S1136 is that of the Eoganachta
Eoganachta Dynasty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E%C3%B3ganachta

S1136 marker, from dominant European haplogroup of R1b. Most common group of Y linages in Western Europe, can be found in Russia and further east amongst Uighur people of Western China.

Haplogroup of R1b
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b)
Uighur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs


Mother line
My subtype: U5b2b1a1

My mtDNA group: U (Arose around shores of Persian Gulf 54,000BC)


Are you implying we could have an Atlantic/ Pacific/ Arabian Gulf/ Caspian Sea league?

[offshorehibby]

Are you implying we could have an Atlantic/ Pacific/ Arabian Gulf/ Caspian Sea league?

:greengrin

[04Sauzee]

More talk on the league here

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/sport/football/hibs-involved-uefa-backed-350m-19446653

[Since452]

More talk on the league here

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/sport/football/hibs-involved-uefa-backed-350m-19446653

Find it strange that they name Hearts as one of the five Scottish clubs. Think bigger clubs like Dundee United and Motherwell would have something to say about that.

[flash]

So is this instead of our league or a midweek league to run alongside because if its the first option that would be horrendous.

[CockneyRebel]

Can we drop the stupid chat and stick to the important topic....


Did the Vikings really wear horny helmets?


NO THEY DID NOT!
Source - Sandy Toksvig, the Danish presenter of QI. It was apparently a hollywood studio guy who wanted a bit more wildness in their appearance in the film The Vikings.
Not a lot of people know that.

[jacomo]

Find it strange that they name Hearts as one of the five Scottish clubs. Think bigger clubs like Dundee United and Motherwell would have something to say about that.


As would Killie, St Mirren and others.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/sport/football/hibs-involved-uefa-backed-350m-19446653.amp?__twitter_impression=true

Ron Gordon in the thick of it it seems.


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[green day]

So is this instead of our league or a midweek league to run alongside because if its the first option that would be horrendous.

Its a nonsensical idea imo, but one that a few clubs including Hibs have been sounded out about. As with many ideas, it was at the "concept" stage, hence it hadnt been talked about yet.

Cormack - as usual - has opened his rentagob about this, called out Celtic over it and probably kyboshed any chances it had.

He is in danger of overtaking Budge as the biggest arse in charge of a football team in Scotland.

[hhibs]

Its a nonsensical idea imo, but one that a few clubs including Hibs have been sounded out about. As with many ideas, it was at the "concept" stage, hence it hadnt been talked about yet.

Cormack - as usual - has opened his rentagob about this, called out Celtic over it and probably kyboshed any chances it had.

He is in danger of overtaking Budge as the biggest arse in charge of a football team in Scotland.


Absolutely, could not agree more, he is a complete self important, tosser. IMO

[Baldy Foghorn]

Its a nonsensical idea imo, but one that a few clubs including Hibs have been sounded out about. As with many ideas, it was at the "concept" stage, hence it hadnt been talked about yet.

Cormack - as usual - has opened his rentagob about this, called out Celtic over it and probably kyboshed any chances it had.

He is in danger of overtaking Budge as the biggest arse in charge of a football team in Scotland.

I hate the idea of an Atlantic league. Does this replace our League as Flash said, or is it another European tournament like Europa?

[CMurdoch]

Its a nonsensical idea imo, but one that a few clubs including Hibs have been sounded out about. As with many ideas, it was at the "concept" stage, hence it hadnt been talked about yet.

Cormack - as usual - has opened his rentagob about this, called out Celtic over it and probably kyboshed any chances it had.

He is in danger of overtaking Budge as the biggest arse in charge of a football team in Scotland.

Yes, entitled Cormack is becoming a pain in the arse.
Hope Ron Gordon can avoid looking as money and power desperate.

[Smartie]

I hate the idea of an Atlantic league. Does this replace our League as Flash said, or is it another European tournament like Europa?

Me too.

I’m pro European football, but only in a role that supplements domestic football in a healthy way.

I’m also happy to explore change and accept that our football as it is might not be perfect.

Just don’t think that this is likely to be any sort of solution, I’d be surprised if it caught the imagination of our existing fan base over what we already have, and I’d be amazed if it captured the imagination of EPL / elite European club fanboys.

[Ozyhibby]

I hate the idea of an Atlantic league. Does this replace our League as Flash said, or is it another European tournament like Europa?

Pretty sure it’s seen as a replacement. With the money that’s being talked about I would not write it off just yet.


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[A Hi-Bee]

Pretty sure it’s seen as a replacement. With the money that’s being talked about I would not write it off just yet.


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Bring it on, it's the future and the way forward imho
:thumbsup:

[Since90+2]

Bring it on, it's the future and the way forward imho
:thumbsup:

You'll be waiting a while.

[A Hi-Bee]

You'll be waiting a while.

A waited a long time for us to win the cup, persevere my boy and if I live long enough this will happen sure enough
imho.
:thumbsup:

[Ozyhibby]

A waited a long time for us to win the cup, persevere my boy and if I live long enough this will happen sure enough
imho.
:thumbsup:

Not sure this will but there will be some sort of change soon. I wouldn’t be surprised to see some political pressure for a British league to help save the Union. The money involved means that clubs would be mad not to go for it and it looks very much like RG is up for it. Celtic didn’t pull out of this because they are loyal to the game in Scotland, they did it because they think there will be some other sort of change available soon.
So long as Hibs are involved. That’s the most important thing. We can’t afford to be left behind.


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[H18 SFR]

I’d be very comfortable if Hibs came out publicly and stated that we want nothing to do with this crap.

[Ozyhibby]

I’d be very comfortable if Hibs came out publicly and stated that we want nothing to do with this crap.

I very much doubt Ron Gordon is here to see us just carry on as we always have. He’s here to make money and these plans are all game changers on that front. RG made his money in TV and will know exactly what needs to be done to increase Hibs TV exposure.


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[04Sauzee]

I’d be very comfortable if Hibs came out publicly and stated that we want nothing to do with this crap.

If it's going to happen and I think something will happen in the near future then I wouldn't want Hibs to be left behindm. I'm not sure how it will shape up but pretty sure there will be something along soon.

[Gatecrasher]

I very much doubt Ron Gordon is here to see us just carry on as we always have. He’s here to make money and these plans are all game changers on that front. RG made his money in TV and will know exactly what needs to be done to increase Hibs TV exposure.


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If he wants to pull Hibs out of Scottish Football for this then he can bugger off in my opinion. I want nothing to do with this.

[Eyrie]

There are already three different European competitions, so any Atlantic League would replace the domestic leagues. Other than "not being left behind", I can't see what's in this for Hibs.

At present we have no chance of winning the league, and the introduction of the top teams from Belgium/Holland/Denmark/Norway/Sweden/Finland will only push us further down the table. That will make it even harder to qualify for Europe.

If we're detached from the Scottish league system, would we still be able to enter the Scottish Cup or League Cup? If not, that's our two chances of silverware gone.

It's a bad idea and as a Hibs fan I hope it goes nowhere.

[Dr What If?]

If he wants to pull Hibs out of Scottish Football for this then he can bugger off in my opinion. I want nothing to do with this.

30+ years ago the footballing world was an unrecognisably different place, the bigger leagues and clubs still held the advantage with bigger crowds and more sponsorship but relatively speaking, most things were more even on a sporting front.....in 1987 the UEFA Cup final was between Gothembourg and Dundee Utd, a Dundee Utd side that beat Barcelona on the way. That is unthinkable now, the gap between the big leagues and the rest is so huge its practically a different game.
Sadly we need to evolve to stand a chance. We could be taken over by the English league or we could start our own with our Scandic brothers....actually, never understood why we've never tried to tempt some of the bigger Irish clubs to come play with us to add a bit of scale. We can debate how we evolve and what would be best, but the status quo is seeing us struggle to compete with English 3rd tier clubs for players....we need to change the direction of travel.

[bigwheel]

If he wants to pull Hibs out of Scottish Football for this then he can bugger off in my opinion. I want nothing to do with this.

He’s certainly doesn’t care too much about traditions . He was quoted a few months ago saying that he preferred the American method where teams couldn’t get relegated ..I suspect the 350M potential TV deal is more interesting to him than staying in the Scottish League .

[Gatecrasher]

30+ years ago the footballing world was an unrecognisably different place, the bigger leagues and clubs still held the advantage with bigger crowds and more sponsorship but relatively speaking, most things were more even on a sporting front.....in 1987 the UEFA Cup final was between Gothembourg and Dundee Utd, a Dundee Utd side that beat Barcelona on the way. That is unthinkable now, the gap between the big leagues and the rest is so huge its practically a different game.
Sadly we need to evolve to stand a chance. We could be taken over by the English league or we could start our own with our Scandic brothers....actually, never understood why we've never tried to tempt some of the bigger Irish clubs to come play with us to add a bit of scale. We can debate how we evolve and what would be best, but the status quo is seeing us struggle to compete with English 3rd tier clubs for players....we need to change the direction of travel.
I get all of that, I do. However I have no interest in it, I’m a fan of Scottish football as well as Hibs and have no interest in watching us play teams we have no connection with. If Hibs move on and evolve into an Atlantic I’d probably stop going. Playing in Europe is a prize for having a good domestic season.

[Gatecrasher]

He’s certainly doesn’t care too much about traditions . He was quoted a few months ago saying that he preferred the American method where teams couldn’t get relegated ..I suspect the 350M potential TV deal is more interesting to him than staying in the Scottish League .
People think the league can be stale just now imagine no relegation :rolleyes:

[Ozyhibby]

There are already three different European competitions, so any Atlantic League would replace the domestic leagues. Other than "not being left behind", I can't see what's in this for Hibs.

At present we have no chance of winning the league, and the introduction of the top teams from Belgium/Holland/Denmark/Norway/Sweden/Finland will only push us further down the table. That will make it even harder to qualify for Europe.

If we're detached from the Scottish league system, would we still be able to enter the Scottish Cup or League Cup? If not, that's our two chances of silverware gone.

It's a bad idea and as a Hibs fan I hope it goes nowhere.

What’s in it for Hibs is money. The levels of cash involved would allow Hibs to bring a lot higher standard of Player to Easter road.


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[whiskyhibby]

I’m all for it, Scottish Football is a backwater with too many clubs that add nothing to the league set up and fans that are counted in the 100’s , Hibs need to move on from it if we are to progress

[whiskyhibby]

What’s in it for Hibs is money. The levels of cash involved would allow Hibs to bring a lot higher standard of Player to Easter road.


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Completely agree, and Edinburgh is an attractive away fixture for a lot of fans of those teams, give us a much higher profile

[bigwheel]

People think the league can be stale just now imagine no relegation :rolleyes:

Fair point - would be horrible ..the great thing about our game is that if you win enough points, you get promoted ....

[Eyrie]

What’s in it for Hibs is money. The levels of cash involved would allow Hibs to bring a lot higher standard of Player to Easter road.


But we won't gain any advantage from those better players.

Our direct competitors in the Atlantic League will also get that TV money and will be able to afford that standard of player, whilst the larger clubs will be able to get even better players. And there will be more of those larger clubs than just the two Ugly Sisters that we have to face at present.

So in relative terms we'll have lost ground and that means we won't be pushing for a top four and Europe but instead attempting to finish in the bottom half of the league, or to get promoted from the second tier.

[Michael]

But we won't gain any advantage from those better players.

Our direct competitors in the Atlantic League will also get that TV money and will be able to afford that standard of player, whilst the larger clubs will be able to get even better players. And there will be more of those larger clubs than just the two Ugly Sisters that we have to face at present.

So in relative terms we'll have lost ground and that means we won't be pushing for a top four and Europe but instead attempting to finish in the bottom half of the league, or to get promoted from the second tier.

We'll have more growth potential, be playing against better opposition and have better players.

[Scott Allan Key]

People think the league can be stale just now imagine no relegation :rolleyes:It's easy if you try

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[Ozyhibby]

But we won't gain any advantage from those better players.

Our direct competitors in the Atlantic League will also get that TV money and will be able to afford that standard of player, whilst the larger clubs will be able to get even better players. And there will be more of those larger clubs than just the two Ugly Sisters that we have to face at present.

So in relative terms we'll have lost ground and that means we won't be pushing for a top four and Europe but instead attempting to finish in the bottom half of the league, or to get promoted from the second tier.

The quality of football you will be watching will be a lot higher though. And I personally think Hibs have great potential in that set up.


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[Juniper Greens]

It's easy if you try

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The proposals have relegation though...

[chippy]

It’s kind of weird reading critics of the AL talking about saving Scottish football, lets just reconstruct our league or join some British league. Here is an apparently well funded proposal that could triple our income , value and mean a quality of football not seen for 20 years or so..it apparently has support within uefa and sfa/ spfl so worries about returning to the spfl if it flips should be eased. How many fully professionalised clubs do we have in Scotland ? We’ve got 2 giants and 3 big clubs , with the 2 Edinburgh clubs at least potentially much bigger. Outside of these only Dundee United and perhaps a revitalised Dundee could aspire to crowds around 10k. The rest I doubt have the fan base or even aspirations to join a 1st tier Atlantic League. The likes of Motherwell, Killie, St Johnstone may rather be happy with some form of access to a 2nd tier AL perhaps done on a regionalised basis , if the the AL does happen or something like uefa organised cross border leagues, I reckon 5 Scots clubs in some form of AL would be fantastic. I think their B teams would play in a reconstructed spfl . AL away games will be live streamed so we’d have a home game every week. The B teams would include fringe players and injury recoveries from the A team plus top development talent so I think the spfl would remain very interesting and viable. Isn’t that what’s happening in the big 5 European leagues. A team plays ECL, A* B play EPL , B play FA cup and league cup. Bring it on Ron.

[LancsHibs]

Not sure if this Atlantic? (North Sea) League is the answer but I’m glad we’re involved, like others said we need to at the front of any proposals and keep our brand relevant, not get left behind.
Some seem to be content with us being a biggish fish swimming around a very small pond dominated by two huge ugly fish with our goal being qualification into what will soon be Uefa’s third tier competition for the diddy nations.
I would rather us have the opportunity to swim in a much bigger pond with some other larger fish and be given the opportunity to maybe grow into a larger fish.
Would be interesting to compete against some Scandinavian clubs or whatever than continue to play Hamilton & Livi four times a season.
All I’m saying is I wouldn’t want to rule anything out before properly looking at the proposals

[tonyrougier123]

I’d hope hibs would be all over this set up,Scottish football is the pits let’s face it.back to that two horse race for cups and corruption.it geez me the boak seeing sevco stroll through the season in Europe and league.
Football is evolving and hibs are renowned for pioneering in this country,the money sounds tasty and edinburgh is a perfect city for a sporting adventure like this.
I think we could really grow in a league like this.

[hibbysam]

I’d hope hibs would be all over this set up,Scottish football is the pits let’s face it.back to that two horse race for cups and corruption.it geez me the boak seeing sevco stroll through the season in Europe and league.
Football is evolving and hibs are renowned for pioneering in this country,the money sounds tasty and edinburgh is a perfect city for a sporting adventure like this.
I think we could really grow in a league like this.

Grow to what though? What’s the end goal? Scottish cup would be dead, European football would be dead, so we could have all the money you like (even though the bigger clubs would still always have more than us), but it would be catastrophic on the game in Scotland (which isn’t the ‘pits’ as you call it) and for that reason I’m out.

[Gatecrasher]

Grow to what though? What’s the end goal? Scottish cup would be dead, European football would be dead, so we could have all the money you like (even though the bigger clubs would still always have more than us), but it would be catastrophic on the game in Scotland (which isn’t the ‘pits’ as you call it) and for that reason I’m out.

:agree: youth developement out the window if we do this and the other clubs will need to downsize significantly, just when the National team is getting good again.

[Eyrie]

The quality of football you will be watching will be a lot higher though. And I personally think Hibs have great potential in that set up.

The quality of player in the English EPL is higher than that in the SPFL, so by that logic I should be watching down south and not Hibs. Other than a couple of attempts when it re-started after lockdown, I can't remember when I last watched it. Mind you, I only watch our games and not others in Scotland.

We'd have the same potential as most of the other clubs in any Atlantic League, so the odds are against us realising it. Meanwhile, we'd be even further behind the big guns. At present there are two much larger clubs and two the same size as us - the proposed league would have half a dozen much larger and everyone else the same size.


I’d hope hibs would be all over this set up,Scottish football is the pits let’s face it.back to that two horse race for cups and corruption.it geez me the boak seeing sevco stroll through the season in Europe and league.
Football is evolving and hibs are renowned for pioneering in this country,the money sounds tasty and edinburgh is a perfect city for a sporting adventure like this.
I think we could really grow in a league like this.
So instead of a two-horse league race that doesn't involve Hibs you'd prefer see a five/six-horse league race that doesn't involve Hibs. Instead of Hibs being one of three/four teams with a realistic chance of challenging those two horses for a cup you'd prefer us to be one of a dozen teams who regard a quarter final as an achievement. Instead of Hibs being one of three/four teams with a realistic chance of a European place, you'd prefer to see Hibs as one of a dozen teams hoping to grab the remaining European spot not claimed by the big five/six.

The proponents of this Atlantic League need to remember that it isn't being proposed for the exclusive benefit of Hibs. Those same benefits are on offer to every other club that gets an invitation, and they have as much of an opportunity to capitalise on the benefits as we do. We won't have a divine right to finish in the top third but we will have plenty of opportunity to finish in the bottom third.

[tonyrougier123]

Grow to what though? What’s the end goal? Scottish cup would be dead, European football would be dead, so we could have all the money you like (even though the bigger clubs would still always have more than us), but it would be catastrophic on the game in Scotland (which isn’t the ‘pits’ as you call it) and for that reason I’m out.
You’ve got to think out the box a wee bit on this idea Sam,Scotland is now back to a two team horse race,sevco getting stronger and more financial clout as a consequence.maybe I’ve missed something but why would European football be dead?.
The SFA is over a barrel between the old firm and sky and that shows no signs of changing,basically if it doesn’t suit Celtic and rangers change is never happening.the set up is stale and even during a pandemic they never found the guile to freshen it up.
The Atlantic league might introduce new cups new challenges,I’ve seen hibs win three cups in my lifetime hardly a fruitful return likely to be missed by many,I must admit the hardest bit would be saying goodbye to the Scottish cup,apart from that what would you miss?edinburgh derby??
Could still play them no problem,they might go to this league too.

[tonyrougier123]

The quality of player in the English EPL is higher than that in the SPFL, so by that logic I should be watching down south and not Hibs. Other than a couple of attempts when it re-started after lockdown, I can't remember when I last watched it. Mind you, I only watch our games and not others in Scotland.

We'd have the same potential as most of the other clubs in any Atlantic League, so the odds are against us realising it. Meanwhile, we'd be even further behind the big guns. At present there are two much larger clubs and two the same size as us - the proposed league would have half a dozen much larger and everyone else the same size.


So instead of a two-horse league race that doesn't involve Hibs you'd prefer see a five/six-horse league race that doesn't involve Hibs. Instead of Hibs being one of three/four teams with a realistic chance of challenging those two horses for a cup you'd prefer us to be one of a dozen teams who regard a quarter final as an achievement. Instead of Hibs being one of three/four teams with a realistic chance of a European place, you'd prefer to see Hibs as one of a dozen teams hoping to grab the remaining European spot not claimed by the big five/six.

The proponents of this Atlantic League need to remember that it isn't being proposed for the exclusive benefit of Hibs. Those same benefits are on offer to every other club that gets an invitation, and they have as much of an opportunity to capitalise on the benefits as we do. We won't have a divine right to finish in the top third but we will have plenty of opportunity to finish in the bottom third.
Of course every team would have the same chance to capitalise,that’s a good thing.I think we have huge potential to grow in a league competing with rival European city’s as a place for players to play football,right now a lot of players wouldn’t come up to play in the Scottish set up.I think we would benefit in that respect.

[Ozyhibby]

You’ve got to think out the box a wee bit on this idea Sam,Scotland is now back to a two team horse race,sevco getting stronger and more financial clout as a consequence.maybe I’ve missed something but why would European football be dead?.
The SFA is over a barrel between the old firm and sky and that shows no signs of changing,basically if it doesn’t suit Celtic and rangers change is never happening.the set up is stale and even during a pandemic they never found the guile to freshen it up.
The Atlantic league might introduce new cups new challenges,I’ve seen hibs win three cups in my lifetime hardly a fruitful return likely to be missed by many,I must admit the hardest bit would be saying goodbye to the Scottish cup,apart from that what would you miss?edinburgh derby??
Could still play them no problem,they might go to this league too.

Pretty sure the proposal is to continue in the Scottish Cup.


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[Ozyhibby]

Of course every team would have the same chance to capitalise,that’s a good thing.I think we have huge potential to grow in a league competing with rival European city’s as a place for players to play football,right now a lot of players wouldn’t come up to play in the Scottish set up.I think we would benefit in that respect.

It would allow us to compete with teams from the championship for players. The international aspect of the league would also attract a higher level of sponsorship to the club.


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[tonyrougier123]

Pretty sure the proposal is to continue in the Scottish Cup.


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If that’s the case I’d like it even more ozy

[tonyrougier123]

It would allow us to compete with teams from the championship for players. The international aspect of the league would also attract a higher level of sponsorship to the club.


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Your on the same page as me ozy on this subject👍🏻
I think it would be a very good footballing environment for a club like hibs to grow in the game.

[Itsnoteasy]

You’ve got to think out the box a wee bit on this idea Sam,Scotland is now back to a two team horse race,sevco getting stronger and more financial clout as a consequence.maybe I’ve missed something but why would European football be dead?.
The SFA is over a barrel between the old firm and sky and that shows no signs of changing,basically if it doesn’t suit Celtic and rangers change is never happening.the set up is stale and even during a pandemic they never found the guile to freshen it up.
The Atlantic league might introduce new cups new challenges,I’ve seen hibs win three cups in my lifetime hardly a fruitful return likely to be missed by many,I must admit the hardest bit would be saying goodbye to the Scottish cup,apart from that what would you miss?edinburgh derby??
Could still play them no problem,they might go to this league too.


Most countries in Europe are a 2 team horse race.

Have you seen some of the teams proposed for this league Norkopping, Esbjerg, Valarenga, Hammarby a team from ROI. It hardly gets the juices flowing.

[Booker5time]

Most countries in Europe are a 2 team horse race.

Have you seen some of the teams proposed for this league Norkopping, Esbjerg, Valarenga, Hammarby a team from ROI. It hardly gets the juices flowing.


Aye, it not like it the cream of european teams. Rangers and Celtic would still dominate this league just as they do here, Maybe throw in the challange of FC Copenhagen


Only thing it got going for it is money.

[chippy]

Re the apparent proposals
1) Uefa, sfa, spfl on board
2) Scottish Cup not abandoned
3) Hibs would be one of the best supported clubs in this league, only Rangers and Celtic have 3 times our support. Other bigger ones are by 50% or so. With good management , recruitment , development we can be competing at top end. It’s up to us to do well.
4) 350 mill euros on average per season for 20 clubs Iwould mean around 10-18 mill per season for players, wow what could Jack do with that?
5) The proposals I think still contain entry into ECL or EL or new Conference league. I’d imagine plenty qualifying places.
6) of course other cross border leagues will emerge so that needs taken into consideration
7) it’s not explicit in the leaked proposals but there is normally talk of B teams remaining in domestic leagues . I think that highly likley as it will help fund the Spfl and support remaining clubs

[B.H.F.C]

Re the apparent proposals
1) Uefa, sfa, spfl on board
2) Scottish Cup not abandoned
3) Hibs would be one of the best supported clubs in this league, only Rangers and Celtic have 3 times our support. Other bigger ones are by 50% or so. With good management , recruitment , development we can be competing at top end. It’s up to us to do well.
4) 350 mill euros on average per season for 20 clubs Iwould mean around 10-18 mill per season for players, wow what could Jack do with that?
5) The proposals I think still contain entry into ECL or EL or new Conference league. I’d imagine plenty qualifying places.
6) of course other cross border leagues will emerge so that needs taken into consideration
7) it’s not explicit in the leaked proposals but there is normally talk of B teams remaining in domestic leagues . I think that highly likley as it will help fund the Spfl and support remaining clubs

Where have those numbers you quote come from?

Original reports were talking about £900m over 6 years.

[mayo hibee]

I would be in favour of giving something like this a shot personally. Scottish football has been in decline for 30 years and we're at the stage where it would take something dramatic like this to get back to anything like the successes of the 80s and earlier.

I don't think this would be a silver bullet that would see us suddenly playing in one of the best leagues in Europe by any means, but it could put us on a par with the second tier or European leagues - Belgium, Netherlands, France, Portugal, Russia etc. And if other leagues are going to merge - e.g. a Benelux league we will need to move with the times to avoid falling further behind.

Clearly there is TV money in Scandinavia - we saw it with the standard of team Molde had a few years ago. But, like us, their league has suffered relative to the big four leagues.

Ultimately there are only five teams in Scotland that draw anything like the support needed to be self sustainable in the long run. This year there are only four in the top division. Everyone else is living beyond their means based on away gates from the bigger teams. Pooling our resources to create something a bit better makes sense. With a home gate of 15,000 plus we should be stronger in European terms than we are. But if we're honest the limitations of our league hold us back and have probably contributed to our domestic failures over the years as well, we've been dragged down to the level of the league at times so to speak.

I know that the traditionalists and die hards on the forum are opposed to any kind of change, we've seen that before when summer football has been discussed. But is the league we're in now really that great - what is it that we gain from playing Hamilton, Livingston and St. Johnstone three or four times a season that makes trying something different such a non-starter for people? Especially if the Scottish Cup is retained, as it absolutely should be?

And, controversial though this might be to say, the die hard fans who have been going week in week out for decades might say this would be the end for them, but in reality they'll be the first people in the queue for season tickets regardless of what league we're in.

Anyway, it will probably never happen, but I would be all for it and I think Hibs should make sure we're involved if anything like this is to happen in the next few years.

[chippy]

Where have those numbers you quote come from?

Original reports were talking about £900m over 6 years.

That’s the numbers quoted over the last 2 days. Don’t know if Cormack said it or what, just going with what I read. Maybe it’s been upped to tempt Celtic back?

[chippy]

I would be in favour of giving something like this a shot personally. Scottish football has been in decline for 30 years and we're at the stage where it would take something dramatic like this to get back to anything like the successes of the 80s and earlier.

I don't think this would be a silver bullet that would see us suddenly playing in one of the best leagues in Europe by any means, but it could put us on a par with the second tier or European leagues - Belgium, Netherlands, France, Portugal, Russia etc. And if other leagues are going to merge - e.g. a Benelux league we will need to move with the times to avoid falling further behind.

Clearly there is TV money in Scandinavia - we saw it with the standard of team Molde had a few years ago. But, like us, their league has suffered relative to the big four leagues.

Ultimately there are only five teams in Scotland that draw anything like the support needed to be self sustainable in the long run. This year there are only four in the top division. Everyone else is living beyond their means based on away gates from the bigger teams. Pooling our resources to create something a bit better makes sense. With a home gate of 15,000 plus we should be stronger in European terms than we are. But if we're honest the limitations of our league hold us back and have probably contributed to our domestic failures over the years as well, we've been dragged down to the level of the league at times so to speak.

I know that the traditionalists and die hards on the forum are opposed to any kind of change, we've seen that before when summer football has been discussed. But is the league we're in now really that great - what is it that we gain from playing Hamilton, Livingston and St. Johnstone three or four times a season that makes trying something different such a non-starter for people? Especially if the Scottish Cup is retained, as it absolutely should be?

And, controversial though this might be to say, the die hard fans who have been going week in week out for decades might say this would be the end for them, but in reality they'll be the first people in the queue for season tickets regardless of what league we're in.

Anyway, it will probably never happen, but I would be all for it and I think Hibs should make sure we're involved if anything like this is to happen in the next few years.

Well thought out post, thanks

[B.H.F.C]

That’s the numbers quoted over the last 2 days. Don’t know if Cormack said it or what, just going with what I read. Maybe it’s been upped to tempt Celtic back?

Upping it by over £200m a year from what was, reportedly, on the table originally. Really can’t see that being the case to be honest.

[Michael]

Where have those numbers you quote come from?

Original reports were talking about £900m over 6 years.

I feel like 900m over 6 years is pretty underwhelming. There is much more potential there if you join the right countries together.

[B.H.F.C]

I feel like 900m over 6 years is pretty underwhelming. There is much more potential there if you join the right countries together.

With the clubs that are been spoken about, I’m not so sure.

Could it be worth more that the setup we’re currently part of? Definitely. But talk of us getting amounts, yearly, that outweigh our current turnover I just can’t see.

[CMurdoch]

Selling the soul of Scottish Football for money.
What happens once Celtic and Rangers have had enough of the Atlantic League and leave for a more lucrative amalgamation?
Answer - Hibs and all the other wee teams are left to play amongst themselves in the twilight zone of an Atlantic League folk are no longer interested in.

The SPFL is the 7th best supported top league in Europe and talk of decline is inaccurate.
Once national leagues are broken up there is no going back. Scottish football ruined forever for short term gain.
The thin end of the wedge in the Globalisation of football.

What if it goes well, Ron Gordon as owner would benefit big time but after another couple of rationalisations Hibs have corporate owners and play in a 30,000 capacity stadium that they share with Hearts or slightly worse, play in a 50,000 stadium as Edinburgh United.
Fingers crossed that this is resisted.

[Since90+2]

Selling the soul of Scottish Football for money.
What happens once Celtic and Rangers have had enough of the Atlantic League and leave for a more lucrative amalgamation?
Answer - Hibs and all the other wee teams are left to play amongst themselves in the twilight zone of an Atlantic League folk are no longer interested in.

The SPFL is the 7th best supported top league in Europe and talk of decline is inaccurate.
Once national leagues are broken up there is no going back. Scottish football ruined forever for short term gain.
The thin end of the wedge in the Globalisation of football.

What if it goes well, Ron Gordon as owner would benefit big time but after another couple of rationalisations Hibs have corporate owners and play in a 30,000 capacity stadium that they share with Hearts or slightly worse, play in a 50,000 stadium as Edinburgh United.
Fingers crossed that this is resisted.

Bit of a jump from joining this league to merging with Hearts, creating an Edinburgh United and building a 50,000 seater stadium.

The whole idea of this league is pie in the sky but that scenario is another level.

[where'stheslope]

Selling the soul of Scottish Football for money.
What happens once Celtic and Rangers have had enough of the Atlantic League and leave for a more lucrative amalgamation?
Answer - Hibs and all the other wee teams are left to play amongst themselves in the twilight zone of an Atlantic League folk are no longer interested in.

The SPFL is the 7th best supported top league in Europe and talk of decline is inaccurate.
Once national leagues are broken up there is no going back. Scottish football ruined forever for short term gain.
The thin end of the wedge in the Globalisation of football.

What if it goes well, Ron Gordon as owner would benefit big time but after another couple of rationalisations Hibs have corporate owners and play in a 30,000 capacity stadium that they share with Hearts or slightly worse, play in a 50,000 stadium as Edinburgh United.
Fingers crossed that this is resisted.
We've trying to do that for years, its a no go if Celtic and Rangers are not in the mix!!!
If Celtic and Rangers left Scottish Football, I feel the interest in the Scottish Game would all but die from a TV point of view!!!!

[mayo hibee]

after another couple of rationalisations Hibs have corporate owners and play in a 30,000 capacity stadium that they share with Hearts or slightly worse, play in a 50,000 stadium as Edinburgh United.

This outcome seems unlikely, to be fair.

[Gatecrasher]

Bit of a jump from joining this league to merging with Hearts, creating an Edinburgh United and building a 50,000 seater stadium.

The whole idea of this league is pie in the sky but that scenario is another level.

But that's progress right? Atlantic League, European Super League? Hibs can't compete on their own so will need to merge and combine resources. It sounds a bit of a jump but that's the natural progression no? The reason why these half baked American businessman coming to Scotland is becoming clear.

[superfurryhibby]

I’ve never warmed to the idea of this type of league. However, I’m wondering what will be left of Scottish football if we don’t start getting fans back in the grounds. Teams are struggling at all levels of our game, with the likelihood that some will be hitting a financial brick wall soon enough.

I wonder if Uefa or the SFA would sanction a league like this? It’s an obvious challenge to their own plans for extended competition just recently announced.

[hibbysam]

Pretty sure the proposal is to continue in the Scottish Cup.


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They can plan on continuing the Scottish cup if they like, fact is those we leave behind would basically be reduced to semi pro level. There would be very little money in the game. A fair number of clubs would go to the wall and the Scottish cup would be meaningless.

[mayo hibee]

They can plan on continuing the Scottish cup if they like, fact is those we leave behind would basically be reduced to semi pro level. There would be very little money in the game. A fair number of clubs would go to the wall and the Scottish cup would be meaningless.

I don't think that would happen - their budget would be reduced so the wage bill would need to come down, but if teams in the Championship can remain full time professional I don't see why the remaining Premier Division teams couldn't.

[Juniper Greens]

They can plan on continuing the Scottish cup if they like, fact is those we leave behind would basically be reduced to semi pro level. There would be very little money in the game. A fair number of clubs would go to the wall and the Scottish cup would be meaningless.

I think your post illustrates why if this happens, Hibs have to try and find a way on board

[CMurdoch]

This outcome seems unlikely, to be fair.

Is it.
Once you are allowed to break up the national leagues to create other amalgamations everything is possible and nothing is off the table.
Enough is never enough for business men. They are always chasing a bigger pay day and that means further rationalisation of leagues and selling clubs on to bigger and bigger owners.

We watch Hibs, we don't own it so have no real control over what happens to it. Ron Gordon is a business man and Hibs is his business. He will seek to build it up and sell it to another party for a big profit. That owner if they are again not Hibs supporters will try the same thing.

Importantly the only thing that gives us a degree of control of the club is remaining in a Scottish League because that restricts how much profit can be made by an owner. Lose that control factor and the genie is out the bottle and Edinburgh United is eventually possible which would mean no more Hibs and no more Easter Road.

[mayo hibee]

Is it.
Once you are allowed to break up the national leagues to create other amalgamations everything is possible and nothing is off the table.
Enough is never enough for business men. They are always chasing a bigger pay day and that means further rationalisation of leagues and selling clubs on to bigger and bigger owners.

We watch Hibs, we don't own it so have no real control over what happens to it. Ron Gordon is a business man and Hibs is his business. He will seek to build it up and sell it to another party for a big profit. That owner if they are again not Hibs supporters will try the same thing.

Importantly the only thing that gives us a degree of control of the club is remaining in a Scottish League because that restricts how much profit can be made by an owner. Lose that control factor and the genie is out the bottle and Edinburgh United is eventually possible which would mean no more Hibs and no more Easter Road.

Who would Edinburgh United's target audience be though? Because the city is full of Hibs, Hearts, Celtic and Rangers fans and none of them are going to want to go and watch Edinburgh United.

[Baldy Foghorn]

Who would Edinburgh United's target audience be though? Because the city is full of Hibs, Hearts, Celtic and Rangers fans and none of them are going to want to go and watch Edinburgh United.

Correct. Duff/Gray era was an awful time to be a Hibby, and thankfully we came through the other side.

I'm not sure if poster was being serious, but in absolutely no terms, should we be even mentioning an Edinburgh United.

[LeithMike]

I think it's really important to think of what is left behind. Imagine how we would feel if it was Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen and Hearts going and us being left behind. How would we feel? How will teams like Dundee Utd feel?

I dont know enough about the proposals but football is a community game and it's important that the teams look after each other. England may have all the money but huge problems have been created by the creation of the Premiership.

I know this would be unpalatable to Rangers and Celtic and impossible for them to vote for but I'd love to see Scottish football be a bit more like the NFL and try to create a more level playing field. I think Scottish football will only prosper when there is more even distribution of money across the leagues. Pretty much impossible in Scotland with two teams dwarfing the others.



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[hibee-boys]

Like the sound of the new European 3rd tier league but the Atlantic league, no thanks.

[hibbysam]

I don't think that would happen - their budget would be reduced so the wage bill would need to come down, but if teams in the Championship can remain full time professional I don't see why the remaining Premier Division teams couldn't.

The championship still get fair crowds and prize money, although to a lesser extent. Take away the dream of getting to the top, and a vastly reduced budget then the championship will go the same way.

[hibbysam]

I think it's really important to think of what is left behind. Imagine how we would feel if it was Rangers, Celtic, Aberdeen and Hearts going and us being left behind. How would we feel? How will teams like Dundee Utd feel?

I dont know enough about the proposals but football is a community game and it's important that the teams look after each other. England may have all the money but huge problems have been created by the creation of the Premiership.

I know this would be unpalatable to Rangers and Celtic and impossible for them to vote for but I'd love to see Scottish football be a bit more like the NFL and try to create a more level playing field. I think Scottish football will only prosper when there is more even distribution of money across the leagues. Pretty much impossible in Scotland with two teams dwarfing the others.



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Agree with every bit until the NFL style, I’d hate a draft system to come into play in scotland. I know we might benefit from it but if I’m being honest, I’m ever the optimist. We might not be able to reach the revenues of rangers and Celtic, but we dwarf those below us, and therefore Europe should be achievable year on year. Thus building our own revenues and attracting better players to progress further in Europe, to then close the gap on rangers and Celtic purely on making good football decisions. Prize money should definitely be more evenly distributed, but clubs who build a bigger fan base should keep the majority of their home gate receipts. That’s for another conversation though, it’ll make winning the league next season even more sweeter!!

[LeithMike]

Agree with every bit until the NFL style, I’d hate a draft system to come into play in scotland. I know we might benefit from it but if I’m being honest, I’m ever the optimist. We might not be able to reach the revenues of rangers and Celtic, but we dwarf those below us, and therefore Europe should be achievable year on year. Thus building our own revenues and attracting better players to progress further in Europe, to then close the gap on rangers and Celtic purely on making good football decisions. Prize money should definitely be more evenly distributed, but clubs who build a bigger fan base should keep the majority of their home gate receipts. That’s for another conversation though, it’ll make winning the league next season even more sweeter!!Doesnt have to be the same as NFL - I'm not too fond of that either. But the NFL have got something right- trying to create equality of competition. It would be great if we could move in that direction. Will never happen though. Our clubs run the show with no superior governing body and as limited companies, money is everything.

It's a shame we dont have a strong and fair SFA.

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[chippy]

Like the sound of the new European 3rd tier league but the Atlantic league, no thanks.

What is this proposal , can u explain ?

[lord bunberry]

I’m not adverse to change in our game, but this proposal sounds absolutely awful. If change is to happen I think it needs to be within the British and Irish leagues and it needs to have all the premiership clubs on board. The thought of 5 of us disappearing to another league and leaving the rest of the clubs to rot doesn’t sit well with me.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Is it.
Once you are allowed to break up the national leagues to create other amalgamations everything is possible and nothing is off the table.
Enough is never enough for business men. They are always chasing a bigger pay day and that means further rationalisation of leagues and selling clubs on to bigger and bigger owners.

We watch Hibs, we don't own it so have no real control over what happens to it. Ron Gordon is a business man and Hibs is his business. He will seek to build it up and sell it to another party for a big profit. That owner if they are again not Hibs supporters will try the same thing.

Importantly the only thing that gives us a degree of control of the club is remaining in a Scottish League because that restricts how much profit can be made by an owner. Lose that control factor and the genie is out the bottle and Edinburgh United is eventually possible which would mean no more Hibs and no more Easter Road.

while I share your suspicion and scepticism about this Atlantic league nonsense, and businessmen in football generally, it’s important to remember that Ron Gordon doesn’t own Hibs outright. A third of the club is still in the hands of HSL, individual supporter shareholders and nominee shareholders. So while he does have control, and can obviously sell his majority stake on to whoever he wants, he and future stakeholders are limited as to what they can do with the club in terms of winding it up, merging with hearts or whatever. They would need the approval of some existing supporter shareholders for anything like that.

[Jones28]

What is this proposal , can u explain ?

I think he referring to the new European competition starting this season, it's a bit like the intertoto cup.

[flash]

I’m not adverse to change in our game, but this proposal sounds absolutely awful. If change is to happen I think it needs to be within the British and Irish leagues and it needs to have all the premiership clubs on board. The thought of 5 of us disappearing to another league and leaving the rest of the clubs to rot doesn’t sit well with me.

I agree and if it happens I highly doubt i will care enough to keep pouring my cash into the club. There is no attraction whatsoever in the fixture list this would produce. Happy to do well in Europe in tandem with our domestic game but not instead of.

[lord bunberry]

I agree and if it happens I highly doubt i will care enough to keep pouring my cash into the club. There is no attraction whatsoever in the fixture list this would produce. Happy to do well in Europe in tandem with our domestic game but not instead of.
I think that’s the main problem with this idea, it doesn’t create a fixture list that’s going to be exciting enough to justify the change. People can point to the fact that Hamilton v Hibs isn’t necessarily exciting either, but at least you can get along to that game if you want, whereas away games will mostly be out of reach for the vast majority of fans. As I said I’m not against a major change, but it has to be the right change and I don’t think this is it.

[Jones28]

I’m not adverse to change in our game, but this proposal sounds absolutely awful. If change is to happen I think it needs to be within the British and Irish leagues and it needs to have all the premiership clubs on board. The thought of 5 of us disappearing to another league and leaving the rest of the clubs to rot doesn’t sit well with me.

It sounds dreadful. Give me 4 fixtures a season against Motherwell than any of the fixtures an Atlantic league could throw up. It might be nice to be able to get a train to a game.

[Ozyhibby]

It sounds dreadful. Give me 4 fixtures a season against Motherwell than any of the fixtures an Atlantic league could throw up. It might be nice to be able to get a train to a game.

I’d rather watch the type of players a £17m player budget would give us rather than a £4m player budget.


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[flash]

I’d rather watch the type of players a £17m player budget would give us rather than a £4m player budget.


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No danger a league like this would present us with that budget regardless of what's being said just now

[hibbysam]

I’d rather watch the type of players a £17m player budget would give us rather than a £4m player budget.


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In a dead end league, with no end goal, and the death of Scottish football. Fair enough. If that was what I wanted to watch then I’d pop a couple of hundred miles down to St James’ park every second Saturday.

[chippy]

No danger a league like this would present us with that budget regardless of what's being said just now

ok so you don’t believe the figures floating around. But hypothetically if these figures of 350 mill euros per season for 20 clubs were more or less accurate , would that change your thinking on the the proposal at all?

[chippy]

I’m not adverse to change in our game, but this proposal sounds absolutely awful. If change is to happen I think it needs to be within the British and Irish leagues and it needs to have all the premiership clubs on board. The thought of 5 of us disappearing to another league and leaving the rest of the clubs to rot doesn’t sit well with me.

Yes it makes sense to have a shared league set up within the Islands of Britain and Ireland , but when has anyone come forward with any proposals that would accommodate our top tier? Far too many complications and vested interests in the large English football market for them to bother with us, we’d be a the last thing on their minds. They’ve had the old firm begging them to let them join for 30 years-any sign of that yet?

[Ozyhibby]

In a dead end league, with no end goal, and the death of Scottish football. Fair enough. If that was what I wanted to watch then I’d pop a couple of hundred miles down to St James’ park every second Saturday.

Why would it be a dead end league?
And I’m talking about bringing better players to Leith to play for Hibs, not Newcastle or any other team.


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[superfurryhibby]

Yes it makes sense to have a shared league set up within the Islands of Britain and Ireland , but when has anyone come forward with any proposals that would accommodate our top tier? Far too many complications and vested interests in the large English football market for them to bother with us, we’d be a the last thing on their minds. They’ve had the old firm begging them to let them join for 30 years-any sign of that yet?

Yep, It's never going to happen. They don't want or need Scottish teams in the English leagues.

This Atlantic League. None of the proponents answered my earlier question about whether Uefa would sanction it? I find that very unlikely, given their proposal to introduce a third European competition.

Equally, the SFA aren't going to be in favour (do they matter) and neither will the SPFL? This to me suggests these clubs will have to form a breakaway league, out with the current governing bodies. That would also imply to me that players will have to abandon international footballing aspirations?

[Ozyhibby]

Yep, It's never going to happen. They don't want or need Scottish teams in the English leagues.

This Atlantic League. None of the proponents answered my earlier question about whether Uefa would sanction it? I find that very unlikely, given their proposal to introduce a third European competition.

Equally, the SFA aren't going to be in favour (do they matter) and neither will the SPFL? This to me suggests these clubs will have to form a breakaway league, out with the current governing bodies. That would also imply to me that players will have to abandon international footballing aspirations?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dave-cormack-urges-celtic-u-23155910

Article says UEFA and leagues ok with it.


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[Billy Whizz]

Why would it be a dead end league?
And I’m talking about bringing better players to Leith to play for Hibs, not Newcastle or any other team.


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As a fan I live to go and see Hibs every Saturday, so it’s a no for me

[Since90+2]

I'm guessing the people advocating this don't go to alot of away games.

[Billy Whizz]

I'm guessing the people advocating this don't go to alot of away games.

Think would affect home games too
Can see many getting played Ona Saturday 3pm either, will all be on TV

[superfurryhibby]

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/dave-cormack-urges-celtic-u-23155910

Article says UEFA and leagues ok with it.


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The SFA were aware of it. The SPFL were aware of it. And Celtic, Rangers and ourselves and Ron Gordon at Hibs were aware of it.
"UEFA got behind it, but it was really down to the individual leagues.

I have a feeling that there might be a bit negotiating required before it would ever be endorsed.

[mayo hibee]

UEFA have changed their position over the years, previously this would have been a non starter for them but with the way the big four leagues have pulled away they seem to have accepted that this kind of thing has its merits. They are also very open to a separate proposal to merge the two leagues in Ireland.

I don't think this will happen, at least not any time soon, but if the Belgium/Netherlands merger goes ahead it will change everything and we will probably move into a phase where league mergers and consolidations start happening all over Europe. At that stage we will need to move with the times or be left even further behind than we already are. I genuinely think that, as a club, we have a lot more to gain than to lose from something like this.

I get that supporters wouldn't see playing Hammarby or whoever as being that much different from playing Hamilton, but imagine if the funds generated for the club as a result allowed us to keep someone like John McGinn here for another two or three years before selling him on for a much better fee than we got. Would that prospect change anyone's views?

[superfurryhibby]

UEFA have changed their position over the years, previously this would have been a non starter for them but with the way the big four leagues have pulled away they seem to have accepted that this kind of thing has its merits. They are also very open to a separate proposal to merge the two leagues in Ireland.

I don't think this will happen, at least not any time soon, but if the Belgium/Netherlands merger goes ahead it will change everything and we will probably move into a phase where league mergers and consolidations start happening all over Europe. At that stage we will need to move with the times or be left even further behind than we already are. I genuinely think that, as a club, we have a lot more to gain than to lose from something like this.

I get that supporters wouldn't see playing Hammarby or whoever as being that much different from playing Hamilton, but imagine if the funds generated for the club as a result allowed us to keep someone like John McGinn here for another two or three years before selling him on for a much better fee than we got. Would that prospect change anyone's views?

It might help keep someone like a Jason Cummings or an Ofir Marciano, but I doubt the monies on offer would be stretching to keeping a McGinn. Guys with that talent are also moving to advance their careers by playing with a side who are candidates for the best league in world football (allegedly).

I also asked earlier about what people think will happen to those clubs left behind?

I do agree that change is afoot and feel that Ron Gordon is someone who will be keen to see the club being part of it, that must surely be a factor in why he bought Hibs to begin with.

[Ozyhibby]

UEFA have changed their position over the years, previously this would have been a non starter for them but with the way the big four leagues have pulled away they seem to have accepted that this kind of thing has its merits. They are also very open to a separate proposal to merge the two leagues in Ireland.

I don't think this will happen, at least not any time soon, but if the Belgium/Netherlands merger goes ahead it will change everything and we will probably move into a phase where league mergers and consolidations start happening all over Europe. At that stage we will need to move with the times or be left even further behind than we already are. I genuinely think that, as a club, we have a lot more to gain than to lose from something like this.

I get that supporters wouldn't see playing Hammarby or whoever as being that much different from playing Hamilton, but imagine if the funds generated for the club as a result allowed us to keep someone like John McGinn here for another two or three years before selling him on for a much better fee than we got. Would that prospect change anyone's views?

The last point is very important. We could keep our best players longer and also bring in better players.
I understand those who go home and away every week being against it but for the majority of fans who just do home games it would be an improvement in the quality of football we watch. Couple that with away games being available PPV and there still being 4 away games in Scotland and I have to say I’m in favour.
With a good distribution of the TV money, there are lots of clubs in there that could challenge for the league and it should be competitive most years.

Some good size clubs here.
Celtic 44,849
New Rangers 45,415
Hammarby (Sweden) 25,507
AIK (Sweden) 20,983
Rosenborg (Norway) 18,039
Hibs 18,000
Hearts 18,000
Malmo (Sweden) 17,332
Djurgardens IF (Sweden) 15,484
FC Copenhagen (Denmark) 15,448
Brondby (Denmark) 15,143
IFK Gothenborg (Sweden) 14,350
Aberdeen 13,094
IFK Norkoping (Sweden) 10,296
Viking FK (Norway) 10,272
SK Brann (Norway) 10,124
Valerenga IF (Norway) 10,099


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[JeMeSouviens]

In a dead end league, with no end goal, and the death of Scottish football. Fair enough. If that was what I wanted to watch then I’d pop a couple of hundred miles down to St James’ park every second Saturday.

... at east end park with ***** football ... ***** football. :whistle:

[The Modfather]

The last point is very important. We could keep our best players longer and also bring in better players.
I understand those who go home and away every week being against it but for the majority of fans who just do home games it would be an improvement in the quality of football we watch. Couple that with away games being available PPV and there still being 4 away games in Scotland and I have to say I’m in favour.
With a good distribution of the TV money, there are lots of clubs in there that could challenge for the league and it should be competitive most years.

Some good size clubs here.
Celtic 44,849
New Rangers 45,415
Hammarby (Sweden) 25,507
AIK (Sweden) 20,983
Rosenborg (Norway) 18,039
Hibs 18,000
Hearts 18,000
Malmo (Sweden) 17,332
Djurgardens IF (Sweden) 15,484
FC Copenhagen (Denmark) 15,448
Brondby (Denmark) 15,143
IFK Gothenborg (Sweden) 14,350
Aberdeen 13,094
IFK Norkoping (Sweden) 10,296
Viking FK (Norway) 10,272
SK Brann (Norway) 10,124
Valerenga IF (Norway) 10,099


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Surely Celtc & Rangers would only join it if they were to maintain the same kind of financial advantage weighted in their favour they enjoy now, and would be likely to win it between them most seasons. Otherwise what’s the appeal for them to join the league?

In that scenario I’d probably end up drifting away from football (which to be fair I’m already going to various degrees as I get older and family and life take more priority etc) once the novelty of playing these teams wears off.

[Ozyhibby]

Surely Celtc & Rangers would only join it if they were to maintain the same kind of financial advantage weighted in their favour they enjoy now, and would be likely to win it between them most seasons. Otherwise what’s the appeal for them to join the league?

In that scenario I’d probably end up drifting away from football (which to be fair I’m already going to various degrees as I get older and family and life take more priority etc) once the novelty of playing these teams wears off.

An extra £20m per annum might persuade their shareholders?


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[superfurryhibby]

The last point is very important. We could keep our best players longer and also bring in better players.
I understand those who go home and away every week being against it but for the majority of fans who just do home games it would be an improvement in the quality of football we watch. Couple that with away games being available PPV and there still being 4 away games in Scotland and I have to say I’m in favour.
With a good distribution of the TV money, there are lots of clubs in there that could challenge for the league and it should be competitive most years.

Some good size clubs here.
Celtic 44,849
New Rangers 45,415
Hammarby (Sweden) 25,507
AIK (Sweden) 20,983
Rosenborg (Norway) 18,039
Hibs 18,000
Hearts 18,000
Malmo (Sweden) 17,332
Djurgardens IF (Sweden) 15,484
FC Copenhagen (Denmark) 15,448
Brondby (Denmark) 15,143
IFK Gothenborg (Sweden) 14,350
Aberdeen 13,094
IFK Norkoping (Sweden) 10,296
Viking FK (Norway) 10,272
SK Brann (Norway) 10,124
Valerenga IF (Norway) 10,099



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That list of teams hardly sets the pulse racing. Not really getting the figures after them either. It's not season tickets and it can't be the average home gates, ort at least not from last season?

[chippy]

It might help keep someone like a Jason Cummings or an Ofir Marciano, but I doubt the monies on offer would be stretching to keeping a McGinn. Guys with that talent are also moving to advance their careers by playing with a side who are candidates for the best league in world football (allegedly).

I also asked earlier about what people think will happen to those clubs left behind?

I do agree that change is afoot and feel that Ron Gordon is someone who will be keen to see the club being part of it, that must surely be a factor in why he bought Hibs to begin with.
Para 1 - SJM left us for an EPL team. On say 3k at Hibs , initially up to 15k at Villa. Fee much too low. I think we could have kept him with this AL money for a season or 2 more then got a bigger fee.
Para 2- The left behind are just that. What teams are you concerned about or is it the whole spfl. Just let’s hope we aren’t one of them. The proposal seems to suggest some promotion/ relegation but I’m not convinced by that unless there is a 2nd tier - that could be done regionally as the clubs involved currently have attendances in the 5-9k range. If they had a 2nd tier I think they would close the drawbridge at that. Any time Euro leagues or old firm to England are suggested the idea of B teams are floated . I think that’s what would happen. Spfl premier would contain 5-8 of our B teams depending if 1 or 2 tier AL. Meaning a home game every week and live streaming of AL away games. That I think would still be supported by fans and help some smaller clubs start pro or at least semi pro.
Ron could be in it for the dough and/or glory. If this comes to pass I’m sure he or perhaps some partners would be putting in decent investment into us. Huge potential for Hibs here. Sponsorship money would be more like 7 figures than 5 or 6. Sure he could sell on but we do have high fan shareholdings. Any buyer would have to have deep pockets. No one in Scotland fancied us credit to Ron if he had spotted a big opportunity as has Dave Cormack and I suspect Hearts too.

[BonnieFitbaTeam]

... at east end park with ***** football ... ***** football. :whistle:


Very good :greengrin

[The Modfather]

Para 1 - SJM left us for an EPL team. On say 3k at Hibs , initially up to 15k at Villa. Fee much too low. I think we could have kept him with this AL money for a season or 2 more then got a bigger fee.
Para 2- The left behind are just that. What teams are you concerned about or is it the whole spfl. Just let’s hope we aren’t one of them. The proposal seems to suggest some promotion/ relegation but I’m not convinced by that unless there is a 2nd tier - that could be done regionally as the clubs involved currently have attendances in the 5-9k range. If they had a 2nd tier I think they would close the drawbridge at that. Any time Euro leagues or old firm to England are suggested the idea of B teams are floated . I think that’s what would happen. Spfl premier would contain 5-8 of our B teams depending if 1 or 2 tier AL. Meaning a home game every week and live streaming of AL away games. That I think would still be supported by fans and help some smaller clubs start pro or at least semi pro.
Ron could be in it for the dough and/or glory. If this comes to pass I’m sure he or perhaps some partners would be putting in decent investment into us. Huge potential for Hibs here. Sponsorship money would be more like 7 figures than 5 or 6. Sure he could sell on but we do have high fan shareholdings. Any buyer would have to have deep pockets. No one in Scotland fancied us credit to Ron if he had spotted a big opportunity as has Dave Cormack and I suspect Hearts too.

Is that not the kind of, I’m Alrite Jack, attitude we’ve been critical of Rangers & Celtc showing in attempts to join the premiership without a backwards glance for the rest of us.

[Ozyhibby]

That list of teams hardly sets the pulse racing. Not really getting the figures after them either. It's not season tickets and it can't be the average home gates, ort at least not from last season?

It’s from a couple of seasons back. And it doesn’t get the pulses racing because we lack familiarity with those teams just now but once it starts and the standard of player arriving at Easter road improves massively then there will be excitement.
Besides, any league that likely would get your pulse racing just now would likely not invite Hibs.
This is a level we can be part off.


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[Jones28]

I’d rather watch the type of players a £17m player budget would give us rather than a £4m player budget.


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And do away with Scottish footballs parochial nonsense?

No way!

[lord bunberry]

Yes it makes sense to have a shared league set up within the Islands of Britain and Ireland , but when has anyone come forward with any proposals that would accommodate our top tier? Far too many complications and vested interests in the large English football market for them to bother with us, we’d be a the last thing on their minds. They’ve had the old firm begging them to let them join for 30 years-any sign of that yet?
I agree with you, that doesn’t mean we should jump straight into an Atlantic League. As it stands the status quo is more appealing than what is being proposed. Uninspiring fixtures and no away games for most of the season in return for more money isn’t worth it for me.

[The Modfather]

It’s from a couple of seasons back. And it doesn’t get the pulses racing because we lack familiarity with those teams just now but once it starts and the standard of player arriving at Easter road improves massively then there will be excitement.
Besides, any league that likely would get your pulse racing just now would likely not invite Hibs.
This is a level we can be part off.

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There’s also an intangible aspect to consider in terms of atmosphere. What will the atmosphere be like at most games where I’d imagine there would only be a couple of hundred away fans against teams we have no history with or strong feelings about either way.