A Successful Season

[Key West]

Would you consider finishing 4th at the end of the season as a successful campaign?

[JammyDoidger]

Would you consider finishing 4th at the end of the season as a successful campaign?

Thats the minumum requirement and it's probably Where we should be if I'm honest.

[MWHIBBIES]

A decent league season yes. A truly successful season depends on the cups as well.

[Brightside]

Would you consider finishing 4th at the end of the season as a successful campaign?

Yes. 4th is a good season.

[wookie70]

Given the budgets of teams in the league I would say 4th is level par, doing ok. We would also need to get in a semi final for a successful season imo

[calumhibee1]

4th and at least one semi final. With Hearts not in the league we’ve got the 4th biggest budget by a mile and must take advantage.

[SChibs]

4th is progress from our 7the place finish last season so I would say it was a success. It would be a good foundation for us to build on to consistently challenge with Aberdeen for 3rd and make a decent effort at making progress in the UEFA Conference

[Keith_M]

If we finished 4th, did reasonably well in both cups and occasionally beat one of the three clubs currently above us, it would definitely be a decent season.


I'd still like us to be at least aiming for the top three, though. Purely on the basis of setting your sights as high as possible and seeing where it takes you.

[J-C]

4th is progression and gives us European football also, we also need to make sure we have good cup runs but for his 1st full season in charge a minimum 4th is a must.

[hibbysam]

4th is simply the minimum target in the league each season for me. We can’t be getting pumped out of cups early though, season is broken down into three, league, Scottish cup and league cup. Minimum is at least one quarter final and one semi final from the cups and 4th place. That’s a good season for me.

[Brummie_Hibs]

4th is good if we are beating the teams below us but getting beaten by Aberdeen, Celtic and Rangers.

If we are 4th because we can't beat the other teams, then that is poor.

[The Modfather]

4th is the minimum requirement given we’re one of the few teams to have money to spend. That said we rarely finish in line with our budget so 4th would be a success. For me though this season is as much about taking advantage and building the platform to kick on the next few years as it is about where we finish. The real challenge is getting closer to Aberdeen and following this season up next year when Hearts are back.

[Sir David Gray]

I'm often unsure about using the measurement of our progress in the cups to say how successful our season has been.

For the people who say we need to get into at least one semi final before we can say we have had a successful season, what happens if we finish 4th with a really decent points total but get put out of both cups after being drawn away to Celtic before the semi finals?

For me the league season is the main driver of whether you have had a good season or not. Yes a good cup run can cement that successful season but if we finish 4th and run Aberdeen close for 3rd place and consistently beat the teams below us then that has to go down as a successful season for us regardless of how we do in the cups.

Of course if we're 3rd going into the split and then finish 4th after losing our last 5 games and we have already been put out of both cups by Dundee and Alloa then it's maybe not been so much of a success.

[Steve20]

Top 4 and win a cup.

Just getting to a semi final and losing isn't success.

[nonshinyfinish]

Top 4 and win a cup.

Just getting to a semi final and losing isn't success.

By that measure, I think the only "successful" season in our history was 72/73.

(If you change win a cup to win a trophy, then obviously 1903, 1948, 1951 and 1952 also count.)

[superfurryhibby]

By that measure, I think the only "successful" season in our history was 72/73.

(If you change win a cup to win a trophy, then obviously 1903, 1948, 1951 and 1952 also count.)

Change 1903 to 1902, add 1887, 1991, 2007 and there you have it:greengrin

A successful season this season is one where we play good football, have at least a few decent games v the Old Firm, finish 4th, qualify for Europe and compete well in the cups.

[Saint Hibee]

Fourth plus beating Hearts/Huns/Sheep/Celtic at least a couple of times.

[B.H.F.C]

I would see it more as progress than success.

[nonshinyfinish]

Change 1903 to 1902, add 1887, 1991, 2007 and there you have it:greengrin

A successful season this season is one where we play good football, have at least a few decent games v the Old Firm, finish 4th, qualify for Europe and compete well in the cups.

The poster's criteria were top 4 and win a cup – none of 1887, 1902, 1991 or 2007 meet those criteria.

(BTW 1903 was included for the less strict version of top 4 + win a trophy because we won the league that year…)

[Brightside]

Top 4 and win a cup.

Just getting to a semi final and losing isn't success.

You arent going to see much in the way of success at Hibs then.

[Key West]

I would definitely see 4th place as a successful season especially if it was a platform for future consistency ( see Aberdeen ).

[Key West]

Just noticed the title thread Seaon.......whatever that is, apologies!:confused:

[superfurryhibby]

The poster's criteria were top 4 and win a cup – none of 1887, 1902, 1991 or 2007 meet those criteria.

(BTW 1903 was included for the less strict version of top 4 + win a trophy because we won the league that year…)

A.Pedant writes. Humble apologies, you are correct.

[calumhibee1]

I'm often unsure about using the measurement of our progress in the cups to say how successful our season has been.

For the people who say we need to get into at least one semi final before we can say we have had a successful season, what happens if we finish 4th with a really decent points total but get put out of both cups after being drawn away to Celtic before the semi finals?

For me the league season is the main driver of whether you have had a good season or not. Yes a good cup run can cement that successful season but if we finish 4th and run Aberdeen close for 3rd place and consistently beat the teams below us then that has to go down as a successful season for us regardless of how we do in the cups.

Of course if we're 3rd going into the split and then finish 4th after losing our last 5 games and we have already been put out of both cups by Dundee and Alloa then it's maybe not been so much of a success.

If we drew Celtic away in both cups before the semis then I’m sure that would be taken into consideration.

However, even if Celtic, Rangers and Aberdeen all get to the last 8, I’d still expect us to win 9 out of the possible 14 ties. The earlier rounds are even more stacked in our favour by law of averages.

As such, I don’t think as a general rule it’s unrealistic to expect us to get to semi finals of both cups on the presumption that until the semi final were more likely than not to get a game we should be winning. If we got a particularly bad draw before that stage then an allowance needs to be made for that.

[Keith_M]

Fourth plus beating Hearts/Huns/Sheep/Celtic at least a couple of times.


A couple of times each?


That's quite an ask.

:greengrin

[Sir David Gray]

A couple of times each?


That's quite an ask.

:greengrin

The way this thread's going we'll need to win the Champions League by beating Barcelona, Liverpool and Bayern Munich to have a successful season. :greengrin

[Keith_M]

The way this thread's going we'll need to win the Champions League by beating Barcelona, Liverpool and Bayern Munich to have a successful season. :greengrin


Don't be so negative, it could happen...

[Skol]

Given our record since I was a lad, 4th place finish is a good season and much better than normal, even without a cup run. We dont have a great record of even making the top 6. If people expect more then they need to re-set expectations.

I think if we can establish ourselves as regulars in the top 6 first and then think about loftier ambitions thats more realistic

[B.H.F.C]

Given our record since I was a lad, 4th place finish is a good season and much better than normal, even without a cup run. We dont have a great record of even making the top 6. If people expect more then they need to re-set expectations.

I think if we can establish ourselves as regulars in the top 6 first and then think about loftier ambitions thats more realistic

Success shouldn’t be measured against previous under achievement IMO. Establishing ourselves in the top six doesn’t even fit with objectives the club have openly spoken about in fairness. I don’t think it’s wrong to be looking for better than that.

[wookie70]

If we drew Celtic away in both cups before the semis then I’m sure that would be taken into consideration.

However, even if Celtic, Rangers and Aberdeen all get to the last 8, I’d still expect us to win 9 out of the possible 14 ties. The earlier rounds are even more stacked in our favour by law of averages.

As such, I don’t think as a general rule it’s unrealistic to expect us to get to semi finals of both cups on the presumption that until the semi final were more likely than not to get a game we should be winning. If we got a particularly bad draw before that stage then an allowance needs to be made for that.

I agree with your general point but with the way the League Cup is seeded anything other than a quarter final is failure. The Scottish Cup very much depends on who you are drawn against and I would use the same criteria as I would in the league ie to not be knocked out by teams with a lesser budget. Of course we will get beaten by teams with smaller budgets but that has to be balanced by us beating teams with bigger budgets. That ability to punch above our weight has pretty much deserted us under Ross but he has done a decent job with beating those with lesser budgets

[Seveno]

We really ought to be aiming for a top 4 finish in 3 out of every 4 seasons. A cup win in every 5 years.

[Sir David Gray]

Success shouldn’t be measured against previous under achievement IMO. Establishing ourselves in the top six doesn’t even fit with objectives the club have openly spoken about in fairness. I don’t think it’s wrong to be looking for better than that.

:agree: I have no interest in "just" being a top 6 team.

In my mind, in a normal season we are in a 3 team mini-league along with Aberdeen and Hearts and should therefore be aiming for 3rd at least every 2 or 3 years and trying to chip away each year at the gap up to the top two.

[Oscar T Grouch]

I think we need to look to 3rd as a successful season. We would earn over £2mil prize money for the season and have a later entry into Europe. Cup runs are all well and good most seasons, but given we're unlikely to see crowds in stadiums this season the cups hold less attractiveness due to the lack of income. Normally I would say 4th and two good cup runs would be a successful season but this season we need to look to finish above the sheep.

[Dalkeith Boy]

Yes as long as our points total was close to the top three versus closer to the group below us

[flash]

Top 4 and win a cup.

Just getting to a semi final and losing isn't success.

Think it's the Man United forum you're looking for.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Think it's the Man United forum you're looking for.

might be more realistic for us than Manchester United these days

[matty_f]

Think it's the Man United forum you're looking for.

Was going to say, with expectations like that it's no wonder he's upset at Hibs all the time.

[flash]

might be more realistic for us than Manchester United these days

Aye maybe not the best comparison at present.

[hibbydog]

:agree: I have no interest in "just" being a top 6 team.

In my mind, in a normal season we are in a 3 team mini-league along with Aberdeen and Hearts and should therefore be aiming for 3rd at least every 2 or 3 years and trying to chip away each year at the gap up to the top two.

That’s about where I am.

Apart from the bit about chipping away at the gap to the top two, I don’t see that happening at all sadly

[Brooster]

Given our record since I was a lad, 4th place finish is a good season and much better than normal, even without a cup run. We dont have a great record of even making the top 6. If people expect more then they need to re-set expectations.

I think if we can establish ourselves as regulars in the top 6 first and then think about loftier ambitions thats more realistic

Spot on. We have been a mid to bottom team (on average) for as long as I care to remember. Finishing 4th would constitute a successful season in my opinion.

[Not In The Know]

I'm often unsure about using the measurement of our progress in the cups to say how successful our season has been.

For the people who say we need to get into at least one semi final before we can say we have had a successful season, what happens if we finish 4th with a really decent points total but get put out of both cups after being drawn away to Celtic before the semi finals?

For me the league season is the main driver of whether you have had a good season or not. Yes a good cup run can cement that successful season but if we finish 4th and run Aberdeen close for 3rd place and consistently beat the teams below us then that has to go down as a successful season for us regardless of how we do in the cups.

Of course if we're 3rd going into the split and then finish 4th after losing our last 5 games and we have already been put out of both cups by Dundee and Alloa then it's maybe not been so much of a success.


Good point. Cup runs are fun, league position tells the truth.

[danhibees1875]

4th would probably be relatively successful I think, yes. Cups are a bit harder to define because of the draw but as has been said, QF in the LC should be minimum due to seeding and then you'd hope to get to Hampden in the Scottish unless you get a bad draw.

Consistently appearing in Europe seems a good barometer for where we should be. The problem with that arises when hearts are back and we suddenly have the 5th biggest budget - we need to be outperforming our budget to have a successful season.

[hibbysam]

4th would probably be relatively successful I think, yes. Cups are a bit harder to define because of the draw but as has been said, QF in the LC should be minimum due to seeding and then you'd hope to get to Hampden in the Scottish unless you get a bad draw.

Consistently appearing in Europe seems a good barometer for where we should be. The problem with that arises when hearts are back and we suddenly have the 5th biggest budget - we need to be outperforming our budget to have a successful season.

Not really, with 5 spots, chances of someone outside the OF, Hearts, Aberdeen or ourselves winning the Scottish is very slim, therefore top 5 every other year would be Europe.

[danhibees1875]

Not really, with 5 spots, chances of someone outside the OF, Hearts, Aberdeen or ourselves winning the Scottish is very slim, therefore top 5 every other year would be Europe.

Forgot/didn't realise there were 5 spots. :aok:

[Lancs Harp]

My acca to come in every week :greengrin (as oppose to once every blue moon)

[Peevemor]

I know Hibs used to budget for reaching the quarter final stage of the 2 domestic cup competitions. From that you could take it that going further would have been considered successful.

This was pre-Dempster so objectives may have changed since.

[Just_Jimmy]

heart - no
head considering we actually don't have much depth - yes

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[Smartie]

4th is progress and a good season this season.

It's acceptable most seasons as long as Hearts aren't higher.

A decent cup record in addition to 4th in the league makes for a decent season.

It's actually shameful how infrequently we've scaled those heights in my time as a fan.

[Ozyhibby]

Will need a lot more than 4th now for this to be a successful season after losing to Hearts. 4th should be a minimum given the strength of the league. So far it’s been underwhelming.


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[Andy74]

Will need a lot more than 4th now for this to be a successful season after losing to Hearts. 4th should be a minimum given the strength of the league. So far it’s been underwhelming.


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Jeez, you aren’t half wallowing in that one.

[Smartie]

Will need a lot more than 4th now for this to be a successful season after losing to Hearts. 4th should be a minimum given the strength of the league. So far it’s been underwhelming.


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If we put 8 past them in both the League Cup and the Scottish then I'm willing to forgive Hibs for the other week.

Anything short of that is up for debate.

[Iggy Pope]

I know Hibs used to budget for reaching the quarter final stage of the 2 domestic cup competitions. From that you could take it that going further would have been considered successful.

This was pre-Dempster so objectives may have changed since.

They kept that quiet at AGMs for years then. Where are you getting that? The board would have got slaughtered pre 2016.

[MWHIBBIES]

They kept that quiet at AGMs for years then. Where are you getting that? The board would have got slaughtered pre 2016.

Between 2010 and 2015 we reached the quarter finals at least 7 times . Not that bad really.

[bigwheel]

They kept that quiet at AGMs for years then. Where are you getting that? The board would have got slaughtered pre 2016.

Why would they have been slaughtered for that??


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[Peevemor]

They kept that quiet at AGMs for years then. Where are you getting that? The board would have got slaughtered pre 2016.Different people at various times over a long period. I've no reason to doubt any of them as it's hardly mind-blowing stuff.

[GRA]

4th would be a success as it gets us Europe. Never going to finish above the OF and Aberdeen have a better squad.

A good cup run is essential as well but that depends on the draw.

[flash]

Will need a lot more than 4th now for this to be a successful season after losing to Hearts. 4th should be a minimum given the strength of the league. So far it’s been underwhelming.


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That game against Hertz was technically last season. Just saying.

[oneone73]

Will need a lot more than 4th now for this to be a successful season after losing to Hearts. 4th should be a minimum given the strength of the league. So far it’s been underwhelming.


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The Hearts game was last season, though

[Brightside]

I noticed on the hearts documentary that Scott Wilson saying "As long as we beat Hibs 3 or 4 times a season the fans dont care were we come in the league" Mind blowing stuff. And before anyone says it I know we have fans like that too....but its no way to build a successful team. Thats the way to the poor hoose.

[erin go bragh]

Qualifying for Europe is a successful season , imo.
If that includes winning a trophy , then it’s an exceptional season.

[Robbo6-2]

Losing the semi and to Aberdeen has been a right downer.

Finding it difficult to get excited for rest of season. Personally think we will finish 4th or 5th as Motherwell are playing well at minute. We will beat the crap and lose the big games which will be enough to finish top 5. Add in the style of play and not getting to the games I am losing abit interest if I am being 100% honest.

[calumhibee1]

Losing the semi and to Aberdeen has been a right downer.

Finding it difficult to get excited for rest of season. Personally think we will finish 4th or 5th as Motherwell are playing well at minute. We will beat the crap and lose the big games which will be enough to finish top 5. Add in the style of play and not getting to the games I am losing abit interest if I am being 100% honest.

I don’t agree with the losing interest part for me but I agree about the teams below us. I think a lot of people reckon we’ve already established a big enough gap for top 4. I wouldn’t rule out us possibly being as low as 6th by the end of the season.

I do think we’ll get top 4 however but it won’t be easy, even from the position we’re in. We’re simply not performing well enough to keep picking up the results we have been imo.

[B.H.F.C]

Losing the semi and to Aberdeen has been a right downer.

Finding it difficult to get excited for rest of season. Personally think we will finish 4th or 5th as Motherwell are playing well at minute. We will beat the crap and lose the big games which will be enough to finish top 5. Add in the style of play and not getting to the games I am losing abit interest if I am being 100% honest.

Have to say my interest is starting to go. I think that’s down to not being able to go more than anything else, although the Hearts game was really the trigger. It was fine at the start of the season, it was just good to have Hibs back, there was a bit of novelty and a bit of hope that we’d get back in the not too distant future.

I do think we’ll finish fourth. It because we’re brilliant, but we’re better than all the teams below us. We can talk about the issues in our squad but nobody below us has a stronger one.

[MWHIBBIES]

Losing the semi and to Aberdeen has been a right downer.

Finding it difficult to get excited for rest of season. Personally think we will finish 4th or 5th as Motherwell are playing well at minute. We will beat the crap and lose the big games which will be enough to finish top 5. Add in the style of play and not getting to the games I am losing abit interest if I am being 100% honest.

We'll be at least 10 clear of Motherwell

[Carheenlea]

I base success on how much much I enjoy going to watch Hibs. Always going to get some major disappointments along the way but as long as the fans are kept onside, have attractive players on the pitch, win more than we lose and have good cup runs and challenge for the European spots all the way through a season then those ST uptakes should remain high and an easier sell.

[Sean1875]

My OCD isn't enjoying this thread getting to 3 pages worth of posts yet the typo in the title hasn't been corrected :bitchy:

[blackpoolhibs]

When was 4th place not considered a good season?


When Neil Lennon and John Hughes were our manager.:greengrin

We've had many years battling it out with the dross of our league, and lost a few times too. Of course 4th is success, what we failed to do each time we've finished 4th was build on it.

[Greenbeard]

A good cup run, or in the extreme cup success, is very satisfying, gives us kudos, builds confidence (both for the team and the support), benefits the finances etc. But in terms of planning or reviewing whether or not a season has been successful, there are too many factors which mitigate against this being an objective factor of significance.
With 15 mins to go v Dundee we were on a shaky peg, and not looking very convincing, that potentially could have seen us unseeded and drawn away to one of the OF or the Sheep in the 2nd round and a probable early exit. Same could happen with our first involvement in Round 3 of the Scottish Cup. And in "one off" games you can be disadvantaged by things like the weather, the pitch, key players missing, Clancy etc., whereas over the entire season these things tend to even out.
The principal factor has got to be finishing position. But measured against what when determining whether or not the season is successful? And with the green tinted specs off.
You could simply use overall budget. 4th biggest budget equates to a 4th place finish being par for the course?
Or compare with how we have finished in recent times? Going back to season 2000-01, our average finishing position across our 17 seasons in the top flight is 6.58, so closer to 7th than 6th. Within that, we have had two 3rd place finishes i.e. best of the rest outside the OF, and three 4th place finishes.
You could also look at how many points we take off the OF and Sheep across the season in evaluating our success. What would be par for the course? At least 2 points, preferably 4 taken off each of the OF? I'd be looking for us to be on par with the Sheep but realistically they are a bogey team at the moment so anything between 4 to 6 points would be good. 0/6 so far this season is not good.
I'd always want us to be aiming to be "best of the rest" and at least 4th overall but realistically it should not be an expectation based on the stats.
One final thing to throw into the discussion - if we are nearing the split with no chance of qualifying for Europe, I 'd actually rather we went into the split a safe 7th rather than plugging away for no gain in the top six. At least then the post-split fixtures can be used to start preparing for next season, blood younger players, test guys who might be on a shaky peg, try different combinations and set-ups. If doing that, it's better to do it against bottom six clubs when we should see a good bit of the ball, rather than v. better teams.

[Key West]

When was 4th place not considered a good season?


When Neil Lennon and John Hughes were our manager.:greengrin

We've had many years battling it out with the dross of our league, and lost a few times too. Of course 4th is success, what we failed to do each time we've finished 4th was build on it.

Exactly.

[MWHIBBIES]

When was 4th place not considered a good season?


When Neil Lennon and John Hughes were our manager.:greengrin

We've had many years battling it out with the dross of our league, and lost a few times too. Of course 4th is success, what we failed to do each time we've finished 4th was build on it.

A big reason we failed to build on it is because Lennon and Hughes wasted the money. :wink:

[calumhibee1]

A big reason we failed to build on it is because Lennon and Hughes wasted the money. :wink:

:agree:

The team Hughes left behind was very poor.

The team Lennon left behind had some alright players but that was about it and they were performing well below the sum of their parts.

I also can’t really remember anyone suggesting that season when NL finished 4th was anything but successful :confused:

[blackpoolhibs]

A big reason we failed to build on it is because Lennon and Hughes wasted the money. :wink:

Both lost key players and replaced them with inferior ones, but of course that was not on.

[offshorehibby]

When was 4th place not considered a good season?


When Neil Lennon and John Hughes were our manager.:greengrin

We've had many years battling it out with the dross of our league, and lost a few times too. Of course 4th is success, what we failed to do each time we've finished 4th was build on it.

It saves me writing it. We've finished in the top 5 3 time in the last 10 years, of course 4th is a decent season this season. As BH says we need to be doing it consistently year on year.

Finishing consistently in the top 5 or higher, yearly European qualification building on progress year on year and doing well in all cup competitions.

[Ozyhibby]

It saves me writing it. We've finished in the top 5 3 time in the last 10 years, of course 4th is a decent season this season. As BH says we need to be doing it consistently year on year.

Finishing consistently in the top 5 or higher, yearly European qualification building on progress year on year and doing well in all cup competitions.

Which is all good but it’s hard to ignore yet another derby failure.


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[Sioux]

Which is all good but it’s hard to ignore yet another derby failure.


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It's only hard if people become obsessed about it, and decide that games against them define a season, which it doesn't.

The hertz obsession overrides reality.

[OstKurve Hibs]

It's only hard if people become obsessed about it, and decide that games against them define a season, which it doesn't.

The hertz obsession overrides reality.

Yawn !

What about that fact that losing derbies so often pretty much does ruin the season, every derby we lose the fans go mental, the teams confidence nose dives yet again, we in turn go on to lose more games because of said low confidence, people need to stop underestimate the knock on effect of losing these games

[Andy74]

Which is all good but it’s hard to ignore yet another derby failure.


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Especially when someone mentions it every 5 minutes.....

[Sioux]

Yawn !

What about that fact that losing derbies so often pretty much does ruin the season, every derby we lose the fans go mental, the teams confidence nose dives yet again, we in turn go on to lose more games because of said low confidence, people need to stop underestimate the knock on effect of losing these games

Aye OK then.

[Brightside]

Yawn !

What about that fact that losing derbies so often pretty much does ruin the season, every derby we lose the fans go mental, the teams confidence nose dives yet again, we in turn go on to lose more games because of said low confidence, people need to stop underestimate the knock on effect of losing these games

It doesnt ruin the season for the team. It may ruin the season for those fans who are only supporting Hibs with an eye on getting one over their local rivals. Thats just football tribalism, and there are many fans who are that way minded. There are many more though that support a team because of everything a season brings not just a couple of games against that lot.

I dont like Hearts beating us....but id forgotten about it a few days later.

[James Stephen]

Which is all good but it’s hard to ignore yet another derby failure.


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Also, its not fair lump all that derby baggage onto the team, or manager - since relegation we have won as many big derbies as lost, which is how things are always likely to be - i accept we could (and maybe should?) Have played better in two of those games, but ross' team has a played 3, lost 2 won 1 (and won loss was after ET) - not great, but also not a disaster and certainly not something beat him up with

[Brightside]

Which is all good but it’s hard to ignore yet another derby failure.


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Why is it Ozy? What is it about a Derby defeat that has such a big impact on some fans?

[blackpoolhibs]

It saves me writing it. We've finished in the top 5 3 time in the last 10 years, of course 4th is a decent season this season. As BH says we need to be doing it consistently year on year.

Finishing consistently in the top 5 or higher, yearly European qualification building on progress year on year and doing well in all cup competitions.

When we have finished 4th, we have then had to replace quite a few players who got us into that position.

Of course we then have not been able to replicate that form quick enough for some folk, so its get the manager out, get him gone and lets replace him with someone who's never actually managed to get a side 4th place in their puff.

Here's a radical thought, maybe we could try and give the man who got us that 4th place and what most of us would call a successful season more time. Maybe just maybe, that guy knows what it takes to get us there, and giving him a bad season might be worth it in the long run, rather than getting another manager in who rips the previous managers team up to build his own.

Because when the new guy comes in, any bad result he has is excused because he's new, he's playing with someone else's players, and there's no guarantee he's any good anyway, at least the guy who did manage some sort of success with us, does have some idea how to do it, what's stopping him doing it again?

We seem to have this arrogance about some of our support, who think we should guarantee 4th place at worst, how does changing the manager every couple of seasons help in achieving that?

[B.H.F.C]

Why is it Ozy? What is it about a Derby defeat that has such a big impact on some fans?

Just the fact it’s them. The magnitude of the game. The chance we blew. The fact we’ve laughed at them for the whole of 2020 yet managed to present them with their only two bright spots. Apart from that, I can’t really see why folk are pissed off.

[Diclonius]

I don't consider a season a success if we qualify for Europe but have a losing record against Hearts. For example, I preferred season 12-13 (finished 7th but were unbeaten against them) to 09-10 (finished 4th but didn't win a derby).

[Ozyhibby]

Why is it Ozy? What is it about a Derby defeat that has such a big impact on some fans?

In most seasons, the derby is the biggest game of the season. It’s the game that always sells out. It’s talked about weeks in advance and if we win it’s celebrated right through to the next one. If we lose it affects the club badly, from players confidence to the money that comes in through sales. I find it weird that some dismiss these defeats as just another game when it’s clearly not.
Finish 4th and it is obviously good but the shine will come of that if Hearts lift the cup.


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[Brightside]

Just the fact it’s them. The magnitude of the game. The chance we blew. The fact we’ve laughed at them for the whole of 2020 yet managed to present them with their only two bright spots. Apart from that, I can’t really see why folk are pissed off.

But why the long term effect? I totally get being pissed off.....but being pissed off weeks later i dont get.

[Jones28]

Yawn !

What about that fact that losing derbies so often pretty much does ruin the season, every derby we lose the fans go mental, the teams confidence nose dives yet again, we in turn go on to lose more games because of said low confidence, people need to stop underestimate the knock on effect of losing these games

Or people take a chill pill and not lose their minds over a derby?

[B.H.F.C]

In most seasons, the derby is the biggest game of the season. It’s the game that always sells out. It’s talked about weeks in advance and if we win it’s celebrated right through to the next one. If we lose it affects the club badly, from players confidence to the money that comes in through sales. I find it weird that some dismiss these defeats as just another game when it’s clearly not.
Finish 4th and it is obviously good but the shine will come of that if Hearts lift the cup.


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Agree with all of this.

Chuck in the fact that it’s extremely difficult to keep people engaged, in current circumstances. Think of the opportunity to do that in the next four weeks, if we were building up to a Scottish Cup final.

[B.H.F.C]

But why the long term effect? I totally get being pissed off.....but being pissed off weeks later i dont get.

You don’t feel that way, that’s up to you. I don’t get that either.

I’m not lying awake at night thinking about it, but in the context of football, I’m still pissed off with it. It’s severely dampened my enthusiasm at the moment.

[calumhibee1]

The fact we’ve punched well below our weight so often should not be used as a yard stick for where we should be going forward. 4th should be the bare minimum this season and I don’t care if we’ve only finished there x amount of times in the last 20 years. Our under achievement should have absolutely no impact on where we should be going forward.

[Diclonius]

Or people take a chill pill and not lose their minds over a derby?

I suspect most of our players have this mentality going into derbies too.

[SChibs]

I noticed on the hearts documentary that Scott Wilson saying "As long as we beat Hibs 3 or 4 times a season the fans dont care were we come in the league" Mind blowing stuff. And before anyone says it I know we have fans like that too....but its no way to build a successful team. Thats the way to the poor hoose.

They beat us 3 times last season if you include the semi and look where they have ended up. If youd offered hearts fans to trade 2 of those hearts wins for hibs wins but they stayed up I wonder what they would take?

[EI255]

Would you consider finishing 4th at the end of the season as a successful campaign?100%

Aberdeen are out spending us (again) (as are Hearts) so 4th would be excellent imo. And also get us a European slot, which is nice [emoji16]

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[superfurryhibby]

I suspect most of our players have this mentality going into derbies too.

I think the players have a laugh before the game and say let’s lose today and piss our selves at the reaction on Hibs Net this evening

[Jones28]

I suspect most of our players have this mentality going into derbies too.

Possibly. But I’m not a player. Neither are you.

I think more than anything players **** themselves or fluff their lines. I don’t think it’s particularly a mentality problem.

The 3-1 loss was a tactical **** up imo, time and time again Hearts got joy down our wings where they had overlaps and we didn’t deal with it. Add to that players that were 6-8/10 week in week out had some stinkers.

They were saved by Craig Gordon in the semi.

[MWHIBBIES]

When we have finished 4th, we have then had to replace quite a few players who got us into that position.

Of course we then have not been able to replicate that form quick enough for some folk, so its get the manager out, get him gone and lets replace him with someone who's never actually managed to get a side 4th place in their puff.

Here's a radical thought, maybe we could try and give the man who got us that 4th place and what most of us would call a successful season more time. Maybe just maybe, that guy knows what it takes to get us there, and giving him a bad season might be worth it in the long run, rather than getting another manager in who rips the previous managers team up to build his own.

Because when the new guy comes in, any bad result he has is excused because he's new, he's playing with someone else's players, and there's no guarantee he's any good anyway, at least the guy who did manage some sort of success with us, does have some idea how to do it, what's stopping him doing it again?

We seem to have this arrogance about some of our support, who think we should guarantee 4th place at worst, how does changing the manager every couple of seasons help in achieving that?

For Lennon this argument could be made. Hughes definitely not. He was a poor manager. The last 3 months of his 4th place season was dreadful. He started the next one even worse.

Lennon had a huge budget and signed poorly. You have to pay for mistakes like that.

[Brooster]

I don't consider a season a success if we qualify for Europe but have a losing record against Hearts. For example, I preferred season 12-13 (finished 7th but were unbeaten against them) to 09-10 (finished 4th but didn't win a derby).

Wow....you would consider 3 draws against them a success but qualification for Europe a failure?

[calumhibee1]

Possibly. But I’m not a player. Neither are you.

I think more than anything players **** themselves or fluff their lines. I don’t think it’s particularly a mentality problem.

The 3-1 loss was a tactical **** up imo, time and time again Hearts got joy down our wings where they had overlaps and we didn’t deal with it. Add to that players that were 6-8/10 week in week out had some stinkers.

They were saved by Craig Gordon in the semi.

Surely ****ting yourself is a mentality problem? Unless of course joy mean literally ****ting themselves which would be a whole different problem

[Jones28]

Surely ****ting yourself is a mentality problem? Unless of course joy mean literally ****ting themselves which would be a whole different problem

Not before the game, I don't think that our players go onto the pitch in a lesser state of readiness mentally. I just think they get more affected by the fans/atmosphere/missing chances etc.

[Diclonius]

Wow....you would consider 3 draws against them a success but qualification for Europe a failure?

I wouldn't consider either season that successful, but I did enjoy the latter more.

[Brooster]

I wouldn't consider either season that successful, but I did enjoy the latter more.

It's all about opinions I suppose but I reckon qualifying for Europe would constitute a success.

[The Modfather]

When we have finished 4th, we have then had to replace quite a few players who got us into that position.

Of course we then have not been able to replicate that form quick enough for some folk, so its get the manager out, get him gone and lets replace him with someone who's never actually managed to get a side 4th place in their puff.

Here's a radical thought, maybe we could try and give the man who got us that 4th place and what most of us would call a successful season more time. Maybe just maybe, that guy knows what it takes to get us there, and giving him a bad season might be worth it in the long run, rather than getting another manager in who rips the previous managers team up to build his own.

Because when the new guy comes in, any bad result he has is excused because he's new, he's playing with someone else's players, and there's no guarantee he's any good anyway, at least the guy who did manage some sort of success with us, does have some idea how to do it, what's stopping him doing it again?

We seem to have this arrogance about some of our support, who think we should guarantee 4th place at worst, how does changing the manager every couple of seasons help in achieving that?

You make a lot of good points, but there’s also a bit of hypocriticallity (if that’s a word) as you’ve been one of the more vocal critics of Collins over the years. He won us a cup and had to replace the golden generation team.

I don’t mean that as an excuse for a snide dig btw as I’ve defended Collins a lot while also been critical of Lennon. I think a big factor, conscious or not, is about whether we like the manager or not in terms of waiting out the sticky period for the long term good.

[Greenbeard]

You make a lot of good points, but there’s also a bit of hypocriticallity (if that’s a word) as you’ve been one of the more vocal critics of Collins over the years. He won us a cup and had to replace the golden generation team.

I don’t mean that as an excuse for a snide dog btw as I’ve defended Collins a lot while also been critical of Lennon. I think a big factor, conscious or not, is about whether we like the manager or not in terms of waiting out the sticky period for the long term good.
Hypocrisy is the word you are looking for I think.

[The Modfather]

Hypocrisy is the word you are looking for I think.

That’s the one, a senile moment for me there 🙈

[Saint Hibee]

Maybe I’m in a minority of one, but I’d rather beat Hearts on a regular basis than qualify for Europe.

[MWHIBBIES]

Maybe I’m in a minority of one, but I’d rather beat Hearts on a regular basis than qualify for Europe.

Should be achieving both, they are a basket case.

[EI255]

Wow....you would consider 3 draws against them a success but qualification for Europe a failure?Agreed. Let's not go down same route as Fartz fans and the club itself, where their sole purpose and mentality in life is to beat the "wee team", at all costs.

It's sad and shows very little aspirations.

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[Ozyhibby]

If Hearts lose the final and manage to stay down while we qualify for Europe then I’ll accept that as a good season.


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[Brightside]

If Hearts lose the final and manage to stay down while we qualify for Europe then I’ll accept that as a good season.


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😂😂😂

[Heisenberg]

If Hearts lose the final and manage to stay down while we qualify for Europe then I’ll accept that as a good season.


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Why would how Hearts perform in any way effect how you view our own season? Especially when they are in a different league. European qualification will always count as a good season for me.

[USAHibee]

Why would how Hearts perform in any way effect how you view our own season? Especially when they are in a different league. European qualification will always count as a good season for me.

Sorry for the positive theme but let's just concentrate on us, we've lost 4 games all season, let's get behind the players and management, we are lucky to have Jack Ross and his team
...

[Since452]

Finishing above Herts.

Done.

[Greenbeard]

That’s the one, a senile moment for me there 🙈
Get the odd moment of seniliation myself these days :wink:
More and more I have CRAFT moments when walking into a room and not knowing why.
Can't Remember A ******g Thing

[blackpoolhibs]

For Lennon this argument could be made. Hughes definitely not. He was a poor manager. The last 3 months of his 4th place season was dreadful. He started the next one even worse.

Lennon had a huge budget and signed poorly. You have to pay for mistakes like that.

I suppose Hughes the poor manager just got lucky when taking us to Europe and winning the Scottish cup with Caley. :rolleyes:

[MWHIBBIES]

I suppose Hughes the poor manager just got lucky when taking us to Europe and winning the Scottish cup with Caley. :rolleyes:

I guess its also a coincidence every side he has ever managed has been relegated within 3/4 years of him joining? He leaves clubs in a dreadful mess.

He was extremely lucky with us, yes. We started very well, then utterly fell to bits. From his last 23 league games, we won 4. Sorry but if that isn't getting someone the sack, what is?

[calumhibee1]

I guess its also a coincidence every side he has ever managed has been relegated within 3/4 years of him joining? He leaves clubs in a dreadful mess.

He was extremely lucky with us, yes. We started very well, then utterly fell to bits. From his last 23 league games, we won 4. Sorry but if that isn't getting someone the sack, what is?

:agree:

The idea of keeping a hold of a manager who was overseeing such a mess is ridiculous. Much the same as NL needed to be punted at the time he was. We were on a shorter but even worse run than John Hughes was if my memory is correct, fell out with plenty and he was making decisions that were almost begging to be sacked.

Both them needed to be binned when they were regardless of where they managed to finish with us the previous season. We were sleepwalking into relegation battles with both of them and something needed to change.