Football Becoming A Powder Puff No Contact Sport

[Greenbeard]

I love looking back on You Tube at games from the 60s and 70s for the physicality on show compared to today's game. I am not an avid viewer of non-Hibs games but I can't remember the last time I saw a genuine stonewall penalty when a player was actually hacked down or properly fouled, rather than falling over of his own accord (eg Doidge Sat)or leaving a trailing leg to get "tripped" (eg Sheep McLennan y'day) or backing into and bouncing off a defender (eg Sheep/Hun Ferguson y'day). None of these would have been penalties back in the day. Elyounoossie too.
I know it's part of the game now and Hibs players have got to do as all others do or lose out, but it has become an accepted form of cheating throughout the game which really pisses me off. Just saying. Where next? No contact at all?

[hibby rae]

On the other hand, players are far less likely to have their careers cut short through being hacked down all the time.

[Carheenlea]

As long as Aberdeen, Hearts, Ross County and such are permitted to hack their way through games, non contact is still a long way off.

[bod]

Yes,over pampered players nowadays wouldn’t last a season in the Sunday churches league ( shows you my age bracket )

[MWHIBBIES]

Might just be me but I like football matches to be decided on quality, not who can hurt more opponents or get away with more fouls. Far superior game today.

[jeffers]

Like a lot of things nowadays it’s gone too far. Players getting booked or red carded for incidents that imo don’t merit it at all. I agree I don’t want to see players just being hacked to the ground but even the ‘hard but fair’ challenges are often being penalised. And don’t get me started on the “he felt contact so was entitled to go down’ penalties that are regularly awarded. As the OP states it’s a contact sport.

[Sammy7nil]

Hibs will find out on Saturday it is still a contact sport. Hearts players are talking in the press about “stopping “ Hibs playing which is code for kick them.

Let’s hope Hibs remember it is still a contact sport and compete to win what will ultimately be a fight as Derbies often are.

[Smartie]

I expected this to be a thread title on kickback on Saturday night.

[Smartie]

Hibs will find out on Saturday it is still a contact sport. Hearts players are talking in the press about “stopping “ Hibs playing which is code for kick them.

Let’s hope Hibs remember it is still a contact sport and compete to win what will ultimately be a fight as Derbies often are.

One thing I would say - from what I've seen so far, Alex Gogic was born to dominate Edinburgh derbies.

We've got players of our own who can stop them playing.

Just a shame we probably can't find a space for Darren McGregor.

[hibsbollah]

Depends on who you ask.

As a viewer, I’d like to see more fair honest contact, less diving and officials to be in the background, not trying to be the star. It’s not just the way the rules are being applied, it’s the actual rules as they are being rewritten now. Wenger and Platini behind a lot of the tinkering from what I’ve been reading.

But if I was a player, or a parent of a player, I’d probably appreciate the increased protection the refs give you these days and a retirement free of ibuprofen and knee replacements.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Did Berry ever apologise for breaking Paul Wrights leg?

For me typifies Hearts Taking willingness to win at all costs to a different level.

[Diclonius]

On the other hand, players are far less likely to have their careers cut short through being hacked down all the time.

Nail on head.

There's far less call now for "players" who were effectively glorified hitmen.

[Keith_M]

The only real difference I notice is the players' willingness to throw themselves to the ground is much greater than when I started watching football.

I remember watching World Cup matches as a kid and being disgusted with some of the South American sides for their play-acting and diving. Now that's pretty much become the norm.

This is compounded by some commentators saying things like "there was contact so he was right to go down"... after said player was lightly touched on the arm by somebody's finger.


I don't envy referees their job now, as the players make it a lot harder.

[MartinfaePorty]

I completely disagree and whilst I admire a strong, but fair tackle, I think there had to be changes made to protect players. I record all the old 'Big Match' programmes that they show from the 1970s and cringe whenever I see a great dribble or run ended by a cynical tackle that sometimes doesn't even lead to a finger-wagging from the ref.

Having played amateur football for over 20 years, from the mid-1980s, I loved the (fair) physical side of the game, but one of the best things that I think happened to football was when the changes began to filter down to the lower levels. I ran a team for about 20 years and we had a 'no-bams' policy, which often meant we lost out to more physical teams, particularly when they were able to intimidate the ref, as well as some of my teammates. It's partly due to the introduction of better artificial surfaces, but when I watch my old team play now, the guy who took over from me goes mental if they play long balls and wants everything played out from the back. A big part of this is that they know they aren't going to get instantly blootered if they try to play football or, if they do, then the refs are now taking action. I despair when folk hark back to some golden era where you could kick whoever you liked and I got fed up of having to go to work on a Monday morning limping after some talentless idiot had kicked me up and down the park for 90 minutes on the Sunday.

Yes, diving, rolling about etc. is wrong, but to me it is preferable to having your best players kicked out the game, sometime for months. I heard from a colleague that Alex MacDonald used to tell the Hearts players to aim their tackles at the top of the ball so that they would get both ball and man. Do we really want to go back to those days where if you got a slight touch on the ball it was deemed a fair tackle, regardless of whether the action of your tackle caused injury to your opponent?

[Eyrie]

It's a good thing that thuggery has largely been banished from the sport, but the dives and feigned injuries that have replaced it haven't made football any better.

For perspective, every week I see rugby and NFL players shrug off hits that are far worse than anything on a football pitch.

[hibby rae]

The only real difference I notice is the players' willingness to throw themselves to the ground is much greater than when I started watching football.

I remember watching World Cup matches as a kid and being disgusted with some of the South American sides for their play-acting and diving. Now that's pretty much become the norm.

This is compounded by some commentators saying things like "there was contact so he was right to go down"... after said player was lightly touched on the arm by somebody's finger.


I don't envy referees their job now, as the players make it a lot harder.

It's funny how there is this thread but recently there was another one criticising Boyle and Doidge for staying on their feet after challenges and not going down to try and win a penalty.

[scottish_sleepy]

Got to be the worst reaction I've seen to what must have been a brutal tackle.
https://mashable.com/2017/05/31/footballer-rolling-on-ground-after-tackle/?europe=true

[neil7908]

Might just be me but I like football matches to be decided on quality, not who can hurt more opponents or get away with more fouls. Far superior game today.

I can't recommend this comment enough.

[1620]

I can't recommend this comment enough.

Too many games can now hinge on which team has the best cheats, whether it be diving for penalties or completely over reacting to any form of contact and getting opposition players sent off. Both these scenarios play a major part in modern match results which I detest.

[mal]

It's a good thing that thuggery has largely been banished from the sport, but the dives and feigned injuries that have replaced it haven't made football any better.

For perspective, every week I see rugby and NFL players shrug off hits that are far worse than anything on a football pitch.

I've never seen anyone in either of those sports take a straight leg studs to the knee. Moreover, those sports are supposed to be heavy on contact, players train accordingly, expect contact, and in the case of the NFL wear suitable protective equipment.

I don't think feigning injuries is a new phenomenon either. I'm sure anyone who attended the "Matty Jack" Dundee United game would remember that United tried to run down the clock and disrupt play by faking injuries frequently throughout the game. The old pros would often talk of "using their experience to slow the game down".

The problem with football is that what constitutes illegal contact can be very subjective, even when analysed repeatedly in slow motion. It's an imperfect situation to which there may be no satisfactory solution. I definitely don't want to return to the days when skillful players could just be wiped out by the Sounesses or Walter Kidds of this world but neither do I want football to become a no-contact sport.

[maturehibby]

When it comes to naming the best Diver to gain a penalty in scottish football I nominate Steven Pressley .
Not for him the diving outwards his master stroke was just dropping to the ground like his legs had been cut off .
fooled so many referees .

[HoboHarry]

[/B]I've never seen anyone in either of those sports take a straight leg studs to the knee. Moreover, those sports are supposed to be heavy on contact, players train accordingly, expect contact, and in the case of the NFL wear suitable protective equipment.

I don't think feigning injuries is a new phenomenon either. I'm sure anyone who attended the "Matty Jack" Dundee United game would remember that United tried to run down the clock and disrupt play by faking injuries frequently throughout the game. The old pros would often talk of "using their experience to slow the game down".

The problem with football is that what constitutes illegal contact can be very subjective, even when analysed repeatedly in slow motion. It's an imperfect situation to which there may be no satisfactory solution. I definitely don't want to return to the days when skillful players could just be wiped out by the Sounesses or Walter Kidds of this world but neither do I want football to become a no-contact sport.
Is that something you see every week in football? I certainly don't......

[FilipinoHibs]

I watched the 1996 New Year derby recently and that was brutal. Remember the first Scottish game in Sky -Motherwell vs Hibs on a Friday night. Living in England at the time. First minute a Motherwell player takes the ball then Hibs player into the advertising hoardings. Commentator says thst's got to be red. Not even a free kick.

[Keith_M]

It's funny how there is this thread but recently there was another one criticising Boyle and Doidge for staying on their feet after challenges and not going down to try and win a penalty.


I know, and I was thinking about that one when I wrote the post you quoted. I don't like to see players fall over when there has been little or no contact, as happens so often these days.

But there's also the problem with players being fouled and the Referee not seeing it, therefore not awarding a free-kick when one was actually justified. This happens quite a lot against certain teams that have it almost down to fine art, e.g. Hearts under Levein.

I think there's a difference between players diving for a foul that never was and the ones that get fed up of no award being given when trying to stay on their feet and deciding to be more theatric to make it more obvious to the Ref.

[calumhibee1]

Might just be me but I like football matches to be decided on quality, not who can hurt more opponents or get away with more fouls. Far superior game today.

Likewise.

The ‘Roy Keane fan club’ style of football is thankfully long gone, no matter how much guys like Keane and Souness almost combust telling people how Pogba, De Bruyne or whoever wouldn’t have made it in their day. Football is a much better sport for it.

[Tyler Durden]

I love looking back on You Tube at games from the 60s and 70s for the physicality on show compared to today's game. I am not an avid viewer of non-Hibs games but I can't remember the last time I saw a genuine stonewall penalty when a player was actually hacked down or properly fouled, rather than falling over of his own accord (eg Doidge Sat)or leaving a trailing leg to get "tripped" (eg Sheep McLennan y'day) or backing into and bouncing off a defender (eg Sheep/Hun Ferguson y'day). None of these would have been penalties back in the day. Elyounoossie too.
I know it's part of the game now and Hibs players have got to do as all others do or lose out, but it has become an accepted form of cheating throughout the game which really pisses me off. Just saying. Where next? No contact at all?

Calum McGregor pretty much booted McLennan in the shin yesterday so don’t think that’s a great example for your argument!

[Vault Boy]

Might just be me but I like football matches to be decided on quality, not who can hurt more opponents or get away with more fouls. Far superior game today.

This, all the way.

[Keith_M]

Here's one of the 'powderpuff' modern tackles.



https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2gpmfv

[500miles]

It's a good thing that thuggery has largely been banished from the sport, but the dives and feigned injuries that have replaced it haven't made football any better.

For perspective, every week I see rugby and NFL players shrug off hits that are far worse than anything on a football pitch.

The NFL will be dealing with a great deal of litigation when it comes to a lack of care for players welfare. It's utter stupidity what they get up to. Rugby's reckoning will come as well now that all the players are 18 stone steam engines.

[mal]

Is that something you see every week in football? I certainly don't......

Did I say I saw it every week....?

[660]

I’ve been reliably informed that football decades ago was no rougher then today’s sport though.

[HoboHarry]

Did I say I saw it every week....?
Then use a relevant example if you are going to compare the two.

[lord bunberry]

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that the authorities have moved to protect players, I just think some players are their own worst enemy with their antics at times. Watching a player roll around on the ground after minimal contact inevitably has people harking back to a time when that kind of thing would be ridiculed. I can’t think of another sport where the participants are so wilfully dishonest and not called out for it.

[Phil MaGlass]

Could be the reason Scotland have went backwards in the last 25yrs. Instead of focussing on skill we relied more on hard hitting players that couldnt learn anything from an institution unwilling to change?

[lord bunberry]

Could be the reason Scotland have went backwards in the last 25yrs. Instead of focussing on skill we relied more on hard hitting players that couldnt learn anything from an institution unwilling to change?
I don’t think so. If you look back at the players we produced there were loads of players that relied on skill, I don’t think we were ever an overly physical side when compared to other countries.

[1620]

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that the authorities have moved to protect players, I just think some players are their own worst enemy with their antics at times. Watching a player roll around on the ground after minimal contact inevitably has people harking back to a time when that kind of thing would be ridiculed. I can’t think of another sport where the participants are so wilfully dishonest and not called out for it.

This.
In the “good old days “ if you went down from a bad one you jumped straight back up and tried to run off the injury rather than let your opponent know he had hurt you. Today’s “big girls blouses” scream as loud as they can in order to emphasise how much they are hurting in an effort to con the refs into taking stronger action against their opponent than the infringement merits.

[jacomo]

What often gets ignored in this ‘either or’ debate is that top level football is much quicker and much more athletic than it used to be. So yes, while your old school centre forward who tended to use the first half to work through his hangover wouldn’t tumble if clipped, these days it can take the slightest of touches to send a player flying.

Watch any match from the 60s or 70s and it’s like the players are running in treacle. Given the state of the pitches, they often were. It’s fashionable to say today’s players are mollycoddled, but they operate at a much quicker and more intense level.

[calumhibee1]

What often gets ignored in this ‘either or’ debate is that top level football is much quicker and much more athletic than it used to be. So yes, while your old school centre forward who tended to use the first half to work through his hangover wouldn’t tumble if clipped, these days it can take the slightest of touches to send a player flying.

Watch any match from the 60s or 70s and it’s like the players are running in treacle. Given the state of the pitches, they often were. It’s fashionable to say today’s players are mollycoddled, but they operate at a much quicker and more intense level.

Don’t say that on the greatest player of all time thread, they were flying machines in the 60s and 70s :greengrin

[calumhibee1]

I don’t think it’s a bad thing that the authorities have moved to protect players, I just think some players are their own worst enemy with their antics at times. Watching a player roll around on the ground after minimal contact inevitably has people harking back to a time when that kind of thing would be ridiculed. I can’t think of another sport where the participants are so wilfully dishonest and not called out for it.

There’s sports much worse than football for dishonesty. Cycling would be the obvious one to me but I’m sure there’ll be plenty others.

[jeffers]

What often gets ignored in this ‘either or’ debate is that top level football is much quicker and much more athletic than it used to be. So yes, while your old school centre forward who tended to use the first half to work through his hangover wouldn’t tumble if clipped, these days it can take the slightest of touches to send a player flying.

Watch any match from the 60s or 70s and it’s like the players are running in treacle. Given the state of the pitches, they often were. It’s fashionable to say today’s players are mollycoddled, but they operate at a much quicker and more intense level.

I agree to an extent, but there is still too much playacting and exaggeration of the effects of challenges than there needs to be. I made the point yesterday but if I bumped into someone in the street with the same “force’ that caused Ferguson to hit the deck yesterday I’d be stunned if they fell down.

[Hibiza]

When it comes to naming the best Diver to gain a penalty in scottish football I nominate Steven Pressley .
Not for him the diving outwards his master stroke was just dropping to the ground like his legs had been cut off .
fooled so many referees .

The best / worst diver was John " polaris MacDonald , Huns . Seen him get tackled 35yds out and stumble into the box. Penalty. Long time ago .

[jacomo]

Don’t say that on the greatest player of all time thread, they were flying machines in the 60s and 70s :greengrin


Yes it’s an unanswerable debate of course, but I need to recalibrate whenever I see classic goals from Maradona or whoever. Otherwise I just wonder why the defenders are standing like statues.

[jacomo]

I agree to an extent, but there is still too much playacting and exaggeration of the effects of challenges than there needs to be. I made the point yesterday but if I bumped into someone in the street with the same “force’ that caused Ferguson to hit the deck yesterday I’d be stunned if they fell down.


I’m not disagreeing with that, but just making the point that if you are running at full pelt with your eyes on the ball, it doesn’t take much to make you go down. There is too much play acting, but it’s not all play acting.

For me the Killie player absolutely knew what he was doing - he appeared to pull down on Doidges arm/shoulder to make him lose his balance. Doidge was more than entitled to go down I think.

[jeffers]

The best / worst diver was John " polaris MacDonald , Huns . Seen him get tackled 35yds out and stumble into the box. Penalty. Long time ago .

Remember it well. Won them a late penalty at ER. I think Tom Hart got in trouble for complaining about it afterwards.

[jeffers]

I’m not disagreeing with that, but just making the point that if you are running at full pelt with your eyes on the ball, it doesn’t take much to make you go down. There is too much play acting, but it’s not all play acting.

For me the Killie player absolutely knew what he was doing - he appeared to pull down on Doidges arm/shoulder to make him lose his balance. Doidge was more than entitled to go down I think.

Agree with your first sentence.

Watched the Doidge incident a few times, still don’t think it was a penalty. Same award given against us and I’d have been flaming. Only thing that makes me think it could have been is Dikamona’s reaction, there was no argument from him.

[Greenbeard]

There’s sports much worse than football for dishonesty. Cycling would be the obvious one to me but I’m sure there’ll be plenty others.
Cycling in the past yes but they have massively cleaned up their act, as evidenced these days by the times they take to do the major climbs. Way slower than the days of Lance LieStrong. I'm not saying it is 100% clean - what sport is? - but the everyday ubiquitous cheating in football, and to an increasing extent in rugby too, where players are now coached to see what they can get away with, outweighs the honest efforts of 98% of the peloton.
Leave doping aside, in what other sport do participants seek to bend the rules and con the ref more than football?

[calumhibee1]

Cycling in the past yes but they have massively cleaned up their act, as evidenced these days by the times they take to do the major climbs. Way slower than the days of Lance LieStrong. I'm not saying it is 100% clean - what sport is? - but the everyday ubiquitous cheating in football, and to an increasing extent in rugby too, where players are now coached to see what they can get away with, outweighs the honest efforts of 98% of the peloton.
Leave doping aside, in what other sport do participants seek to bend the rules and con the ref more than football?

I don’t watch much in the way of other sports to be honest.

Didn’t realise cycling had cleaned up their game as well!

[eezyrider]

I’m not disagreeing with that, but just making the point that if you are running at full pelt with your eyes on the ball, it doesn’t take much to make you go down. There is too much play acting, but it’s not all play acting.

For me the Killie player absolutely knew what he was doing - he appeared to pull down on Doidges arm/shoulder to make him lose his balance. Doidge was more than entitled to go down I think.

I hate this phrase. Players should only go down if the force of the tackle, challenge etc forces them to go down. However I'm not naïve enough to realise that if they didn't the ref would give them nothing. Refereeing standards need to be increased.

EZ

[jacomo]

I hate this phrase. Players should only go down if the force of the tackle, challenge etc forces them to go down. However I'm not naïve enough to realise that if they didn't the ref would give them nothing. Refereeing standards need to be increased.

EZ


I can understand why.

But - flipping it on its head - why should Doidge try to stay on his feet when the defender has fouled him and illegally tried to deny him a goal scoring opportunity?

In an ideal world all players would play with honesty and integrity, try their very best, and the officials would never make mistakes. But this isn’t the world we live in.

[Future17]

I love looking back on You Tube at games from the 60s and 70s for the physicality on show compared to today's game. I am not an avid viewer of non-Hibs games but I can't remember the last time I saw a genuine stonewall penalty when a player was actually hacked down or properly fouled, rather than falling over of his own accord (eg Doidge Sat)or leaving a trailing leg to get "tripped" (eg Sheep McLennan y'day) or backing into and bouncing off a defender (eg Sheep/Hun Ferguson y'day). None of these would have been penalties back in the day. Elyounoossie too.
I know it's part of the game now and Hibs players have got to do as all others do or lose out, but it has become an accepted form of cheating throughout the game which really pisses me off. Just saying. Where next? No contact at all?

In the recent Merseyside derby, Pickford potentially ended van Dijk's season and it wasn't even a yellow card.

[Eyrie]

I can understand why.

But - flipping it on its head - why should Doidge try to stay on his feet when the defender has fouled him and illegally tried to deny him a goal scoring opportunity?

In an ideal world all players would play with honesty and integrity, try their very best, and the officials would never make mistakes. But this isn’t the world we live in.

I agree with eezyrider here.

If referees could play a proper advantage then the forward would have an incentive to stay up and attempt a shot, knowing that play will still be brought back for a penalty if he misses. And defenders will be less likely to commit the foul if they know that gives their opponent two chances to score.

In the real world of course, players will fall over and feign injury for as long as the laws encourage such behaviour.

[Sammy7nil]

In the recent Merseyside derby, Pickford potentially ended van Dijk's season and it wasn't even a yellow card.

That was a strange one no action due to the earlier offside. So in that case if Pickford had simply punched him in the face instead of scything him down there still would have been no action🙈😂 due to the offside🤔

[Scouse Hibee]

Todays game is played by professional athletes who have pace and power that those of yesteryear could only dream of.
Professional athletes are far more susceptible to injury given the speed and power they they and their opponents possess.
Like everything else trying to get a relative comparison between different eras is virtually impossible.

[SChibs]

That was a strange one no action due to the earlier offside. So in that case if Pickford had simply punched him in the face instead of scything him down there still would have been no action🙈😂 due to the offside🤔

I see your point but I'm sure they can punish violent conduct after the offside, just not regular fouls.

[ancient hibee]

That was a strange one no action due to the earlier offside. So in that case if Pickford had simply punched him in the face instead of scything him down there still would have been no action🙈😂 due to the offside🤔
You can’t be sent off for serious foul play after play has stopped but you can be sent off for violent conduct instead.

[neil7908]

I hate this phrase. Players should only go down if the force of the tackle, challenge etc forces them to go down. However I'm not naïve enough to realise that if they didn't the ref would give them nothing. Refereeing standards need to be increased.

EZ

Your last point is spot on sadly. Case in point is the Ross County game. Boyle was racing in on goal and got a proper shove. If he'd gone down it would be a certain penalty but he tries to stay on his feet and get a shot away.

However, his stumble allowed the other County defender to get back and put a tackle in.

Basically refs and the rules of football have created a huge incentive for someone to go down if touched as if you don't, you'll get nothing.

[mal]

Then use a relevant example if you are going to compare the two.

As a reminder, I was responding to this point: "For perspective, every week I see rugby and NFL players shrug off hits that are far worse than anything on a football pitch."

It only needs a worse incident to happen in football once to expose this as hyperbole.

[heretoday]

Todays game is played by professional athletes who have pace and power that those of yesteryear could only dream of.
Professional athletes are far more susceptible to injury given the speed and power they they and their opponents possess.
Like everything else trying to get a relative comparison between different eras is virtually impossible.

Well I've been comparing them and I've concluded that football isn't as much fun to follow, not as exciting to watch and current footballers are paid too much and behave like spoiled children (except Marcus Rashford)!

[Greenbeard]

Your last point is spot on sadly. Case in point is the Ross County game. Boyle was racing in on goal and got a proper shove. If he'd gone down it would be a certain penalty but he tries to stay on his feet and get a shot away.

However, his stumble allowed the other County defender to get back and put a tackle in.

Basically refs and the rules of football have created a huge incentive for someone to go down if touched as if you don't, you'll get nothing.
Aye, the advantage rule is much better in rugby - a clear call and signal from the ref that advantage is being played and that he will go back for that infringement if no clear advantage ensues in the next passage of play which can sometimes be a minute or more.

[Eyrie]

As a reminder, I was responding to this point: "For perspective, every week I see rugby and NFL players shrug off hits that are far worse than anything on a football pitch."

It only needs a worse incident to happen in football once to expose this as hyperbole.

The hyperbole is your attempt to compare a hard but fair hit in rugby or the NFL to a deliberate attempt to injure an opponent with "a straight leg studs to the knee". I've seen similar dirty play in both rugby and the NFL but that's not what we're discussing in this thread.

So the request to use a relevant example (ie a fair challenge) is still there to be be answered by you.

[Danderhall Hibs]

I don't envy referees their job now, as the players make it a lot harder.

I think refs make it difficult for themselves by not giving penalties if the player stays on their feet.

[Greenbeard]

Just bringing this back up for discussion after yesterday's diving competition.