Taking the Knee

[granty6_2]

Is this still effective?

When it first happened it sent a very strong message, now, it just seems to be something players do at the start of a match and has little impact.

Time to drop this?

Completely agree with the message, just don’t think it is a powerful message anymore.

[Moulin Yarns]

Is this still effective?

When it first happened it sent a very strong message, now, it just seems to be something players do at the start of a match and has little impact.

Time to drop this?

Completely agree with the message, just don’t think it is a powerful message anymore.

Don't quote me, but I think it's to stop after October.

[WillieP]

Couldn’t agree more.

[Sir David Gray]

Is this still effective?

When it first happened it sent a very strong message, now, it just seems to be something players do at the start of a match and has little impact.

Time to drop this?

Completely agree with the message, just don’t think it is a powerful message anymore.

I personally agree.

[Brizo]

Is this still effective?

When it first happened it sent a very strong message, now, it just seems to be something players do at the start of a match and has little impact.

Time to drop this?

Completely agree with the message, just don’t think it is a powerful message anymore.

I think any message loses its power when it becomes routine. The clap for NHS springs to mind where it had a hugely positive and educational impact but probably stopped at the right time before engagement began to drop off.

If taking the knee is coming to a conclusion at the end of October that seems a good point (end of Black History Month) to end this particular initiative. That doesn't mean that different initiatives shouldn't replace it to keep the issue at the forefront of peoples minds.

[Vault Boy]

I think any message loses its power when it becomes routine. The clap for NHS springs to mind where it had a hugely positive and educational impact but probably stopped at the right time before engagement began to drop off.

If taking the knee is coming to a conclusion at the end of October that seems a good point (end of Black History Month) to end this particular initiative. That doesn't mean that different initiatives shouldn't replace it to keep the issue at the forefront of peoples minds.

Very good post.

[Scouse Hibee]

Is this still effective?

When it first happened it sent a very strong message, now, it just seems to be something players do at the start of a match and has little impact.

Time to drop this?

Completely agree with the message, just don’t think it is a powerful message anymore.

I agree, it’s like the notice that is left too long on a notice board.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

There needs to be more than simply taking the knee. Whilst it raises awareness there needs to be action.

But whilst gross inequalities remain, what else other than taking the knee serves as a reminder?

Whilst the devolution/Scottish Parliament Was unresolved did the caravan pack up and go home?

Not too sure where I stand on this.

Whilst on one hand I think it’s a token gesture, and the real change needs to take place between folks ears and within companies and institutions, to dissolve it kinda almost negates it unless we’ve got commitment and mechanisms in place to tackle racism in sport seems a bit disingenuous. That no longer will racist abuse from the terrace be overlooked and targets reprimanded for threatening to walk off (boy did they drag their heels on that!)

[Max_Shah]

We “take a knee” for a minute.

Football match continues unabated.

We discuss tactics, subs, boring no-score draws and refs on our forums.

As a 2nd generation "person of colour" :rolleyes: I simply cannot understand how such a minuscule gesture can cause offense.

My experience of the Hibernian community in Edinburgh is we are all welcome irrespective of Roy Race, class, gender [or lack thereof], religion or realpolitick.

Perhaps I am missing something - the letter Q springs to mind. - Holy Ground beckons and I have no interest in anything other than Hibernian FC.

(https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/)

[Hibee_Dave]

What gets me just now is that on broadcast games the period that the players take the knee is treated by commentators as if it were a minute’s silence. Surely that’s the time to be talking about inequality or change that has or should happen in the game or at the very least why they’re doing it.

I agree with an earlier sentiment about it becoming routine and just ‘the done thing’ and therefore in no way related to it’s initial meaning of protest. It’s actually in danger of diluting the message without people being made to understand why it’s being done.

[The 90+2]

We “take a knee” for a minute.

Football match continues unabated.

We discuss tactics, subs, boring no-score draws and refs on our forums.

As a 2nd generation "person of colour" :rolleyes: I simply cannot understand how such a minuscule gesture can cause offense.

My experience of the Hibernian community in Edinburgh is we are all welcome irrespective of Roy Race, class, gender [or lack thereof], religion or realpolitick.

Perhaps I am missing something - the letter Q springs to mind. - Holy Ground beckons and I have no interest in anything other than Hibernian FC.

(https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/)

It doesn’t cause offence but the message is diminishing.

[Scouse Hibee]

We “take a knee” for a minute.

Football match continues unabated.

We discuss tactics, subs, boring no-score draws and refs on our forums.

As a 2nd generation "person of colour" :rolleyes: I simply cannot understand how such a minuscule gesture can cause offense.

My experience of the Hibernian community in Edinburgh is we are all welcome irrespective of Roy Race, class, gender [or lack thereof], religion or realpolitick.

Perhaps I am missing something - the letter Q springs to mind. - Holy Ground beckons and I have no interest in anything other than Hibernian FC.

(https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/)

Who said it causes offence?

[MKHIBEE]

Who said it causes offence?
I recall some West of Scotland football supporters taking offence on twitter

[Dr What If?]

What is offensive is that in this day and age we still need to point out that 'black lives matter'! If there is one thing I hate about the game I love it is how it is still a safe haven for those who want to spout their racist, homophobic, sectarian bile. Taking the knee might be a gesture but its also a statement, its just a shame the fans aren't in the grounds to see it....its a statement to all those who would be racist that they are not welcome and the game has had enough.
If players need to take the knee for another 50 years to come so be it, but when they stop I hope its because 'black lives matter' is self evident to everyone and this beautiful game has caught up with the rest of society.

[Scouse Hibee]

I recall some West of Scotland football supporters taking offence on twitter

I was talking about on this thread, those Neanderthals are no yardstick to judge anything by.

[DH1875]

I think (in Scotland anyway) it stops at end of this month. Sure i read somewhere this was because they wanted the lower league clubs to have the opportunity to take part/be included.

[JGS56]

Has anyone noticed that the actual duration of "Taking The Knee" is getting shorter? The TV cameras almost missed the act at the start of the ****bos match on friday.

[matty_f]

An observation is that it seems to be a lot of people (not on here, specifically but across social media) who think it’s about time to stop taking the knee are people who the reason (for taking the knee) doesn’t really affect.

[calumhibee1]

I’d keep it. Whilst I’d agree it’s message is sort of diminished in that you don’t watch it now and really take notice of the actual act, it’s still a televised moment before every single televised game where you’ll always be reminded of why it’s being done and the issues people of colour face.

[bod]

I think shortening the length of time has done it no favours, players retying their boots before a free kick takes longer

[jacomo]

I recall some West of Scotland football supporters taking offence on twitter


If it annoys them then that is a very good reason to keep it going in perpetuity no?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Annoyed with myself I was lost for words earlier.

I think I can summarise as this:

If recent events have taught us anything it’s that “we’re all Jock Tamson’s Bairns” needs to be more than just words. And if taking the knee stops us from sinking into complacency thinking we didn’t/ don’t have a problem here (we’re mistaken) then it’s serving a purpose.

l’ve been fortunate to see the strength through diversity. But perhaps I needed to get away from Scotland to see it? which I find incredibly sad although things appear to be changing a little. I married a girl from a different culture and some of the treatment that’s been received over the 20 years in Scotland (whilst few and far between) has however been shameful.

So my hope for a new Scotland is one of inclusion and tolerance of people, culture, background, lifestyle, ability or disability. As Tim Booth sings “There’s only one human race, many faces, everybody belongs here. “

[Ronniekirk]

They are just going through the motions s now Ask Kevin Harper what real effect it’s having behind the scenes and you heat his frustration at lack of opportunities and lack of progress in addressing deep rooted issues



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[BegbieHSC]

The message can’t be forgotten, so no, I hope players continue to take the knee.

Racism still happens every single day, so if sending our solidarity every match day means that we don’t start getting complacent about tackling racism, I’m absolutely in favour.

[BegbieHSC]

The message can’t be forgotten, so no, I hope players continue to take the knee.

Racism still happens every single day, so if sending our solidarity every match day means that we don’t start getting complacent about tackling racism, I’m absolutely in favour.

Add to that, not to attack our own fan base, but the fact that we’ve had two high profile incidents of racism from our own in derbies in as many years gives us extra reason to do all we can to send the message.

[Jones28]

If it keeps it in the consciousness of the public then it should continue.

[Scouse Hibee]

If it keeps it in the consciousness of the public then it should continue.

That’s the point though, I’m not so sure it does, the longer it goes on it just becomes something that happens before a game without the actual reason for it being recognised.

[Carheenlea]

It’s continuing to raise awareness for the movement and promote its desired message.

This thread in itself being posted a few months into Scottish footballers “taking the knee” is an example of that.

[Jones28]

That’s the point though, I’m not so sure it does, the longer it goes on it just becomes something that happens before a game without the actual reason for it being recognised.

Surely it happens so it’s a reminder every time. Ok the point might get glossed over but as long as it keeps happening it will remain in the heads of the people that see it.

[The Modfather]

If it keeps it in the consciousness of the public then it should continue.

I’m not sure it is either. It’s like the renaming of streets or the NHS key workers, it’s had its 15 minutes in public conscious and the general public has shifted its focus onto the next thing. That’s not to say racism isn’t still an issue but I feel that taking the knee has become normalised and as such it’s actual message has been lost.

I’d stop it. I would however like to see the debates on all the various football analysis cover the subject a couple of times a week. Gary Neville and co debating representation of minorities in the game and in the supports, guests sharing their experiences of racism in their career etc. I think that would be more relatable and have a bigger impact.

[Scouse Hibee]

Surely it happens so it’s a reminder every time. Ok the point might get glossed over but as long as it keeps happening it will remain in the heads of the people that see it.

Not for me, I agree with below which is one of just many quotes on the subject.

The symbolism of the posture that ignited a movement has drained away as its endless replication has reduced it to mere protocol

[WhileTheChief..]

It's ridiculous and the players look really uncomfortable doing it.

Glad it's coming to an end.

[Scouse Hibee]

It's ridiculous and the players look really uncomfortable doing it.

Glad it's coming to an end.

I wonder how long it will be before players break ranks, am I right in saying that no player has broke ranks yet and failed to take the knee? I see some F1 drivers don’t do it, not sure about other sports.

[WhileTheChief..]

^^Individual players can’t break ranks on this, they would instantly be labelled.

I’d imagine the league have agreed end of October as this is Black history month.

[SouthMoroccoStu]

There’s a lot of very PC responses on this thread...
The vast majority of people agree with the message but don’t support the action
I think football authorities have been lucky with no fans in the stadiums over the action of taking the knee - the vocal booing would be difficult to hide
It’s become tiresome very quickly - it’s lost it’s message and impact
And they always include it in highlights

[bigwheel]

There’s a lot of very PC responses on this thread...
The vast majority of people agree with the message but don’t support the action
I think football authorities have been lucky with no fans in the stadiums over the action of taking the knee - the vocal booing would be difficult to hide
It’s become tiresome very quickly - it’s lost it’s message and impact
And they always include it in highlights

I agree it will be losing impact - but is it really tiresome for the 15 seconds or so it takes ?

[Scouse Hibee]

^^Individual players can’t break ranks on this, they would instantly be labelled.

I’d imagine the league have agreed end of October as this is Black history month.

Where the F1 drivers instantly labelled?

In any case if you are simply taking the knee because you think you have to, it’s a pretty worthless exercise.

[SouthMoroccoStu]

Where the F1 drivers instantly labelled?

In any case if you are simply taking the knee because you think you have to, it’s a pretty worthless exercise.

Hamilton was vocal, but he’s not very popular despite he talent and success

I don’t think taking the knee achieves anything but if I was on a team I wouldn’t dare be the first one to stay stood from fear of being a racist and labelled for life

[Since452]

I feel it's probably lost some of it's initial effectiveness. Quite similar to the "show racism the red card" initiative when the two teams would hold up a red card. I'm in two minds about it. I'll admit I've found myself just wanting the game to start. It's a difficult one though. Racism is sickening and it needs to be stopped but what's the best way to keep the message out there?

[heretoday]

Time to end it. It's going nowhere.

[Jones28]

I’m not sure it is either. It’s like the renaming of streets or the NHS key workers, it’s had its 15 minutes in public conscious and the general public has shifted its focus onto the next thing. That’s not to say racism isn’t still an issue but I feel that taking the knee has become normalised and as such it’s actual message has been lost.

I’d stop it. I would however like to see the debates on all the various football analysis cover the subject a couple of times a week. Gary Neville and co debating representation of minorities in the game and in the supports, guests sharing their experiences of racism in their career etc. I think that would be more relatable and have a bigger impact.

I like your last point, but I think the idea of football stopping it would loose the message more than if they kept on doing it. It forces its way onto our screens and into our heads. It's stopping soon and no doubt will be reduced to a single day/event over the course of a whole season as it has been for the last few years.

[Jones28]

Not for me, I agree with below which is one of just many quotes on the subject.

The symbolism of the posture that ignited a movement has drained away as its endless replication has reduced it to mere protocol


Protocol that keeps racism in the minds of the public is good protocol IMO.

[lord bunberry]

I’d keep it or do something similar if taking the knee isn’t to everyone’s taste.

[Scouse Hibee]

Protocol that keeps racism in the minds of the public is good protocol IMO.

But does it? That is the whole point I am trying to make.

[FilipinoHibs]

Hamilton was vocal, but he’s not very popular despite he talent and success

I don’t think taking the knee achieves anything but if I was on a team I wouldn’t dare be the first one to stay stood from fear of being a racist and labelled for life

Some take the knee but others stand with the ones taking the knee. Everybody wears BLM t-shirts and and appears in the ant-racism ad.

As an aside are the Hearts doing it? Seen some of their fans on social media saying they should not.

[DH1875]

Have/did QPR not stop taking the knee ahead of games last month? I'm sure Les Ferdinand said they wouldn't be doing it anymore.

[DH1875]

Some take the knee but others stand with the ones taking the knee. Everybody wears BLM t-shirts and and appears in the ant-racism ad.

As an aside are the Hearts doing it? Seen some of their fans on social media saying they should not.

They done it before their game against Dundee.

[Dashing Bob S]

I recall some West of Scotland football supporters taking offence on twitter

The fact it annoys racist Huns is probably just about the only reason to keep it going. But it’s also a damn good one.

[Jones28]

But does it? That is the whole point I am trying to make.

IMO it does, because you see it. If it stops it becomes a footnote and turns into one of these "days", like show racism the red card.

[hibee]

Some take the knee but others stand with the ones taking the knee. Everybody wears BLM t-shirts and and appears in the ant-racism ad.

As an aside are the Hearts doing it? Seen some of their fans on social media saying they should not.

I think Lewis is the only driver that still wears a BLM T-shirt, some of the others wear T-shirt’s with different messages on them but have distanced themselves from BLM.

[Dr What If?]

But does it? That is the whole point I am trying to make.
We are on a thread talking about what is the best way to tackle racism....it is having an impact.

[tomf]

As someone who remembers the peaceful protests of the civil rights movement in America and the continuing struggle for equality and the simple fact that black lives matter, 'taking the knee' has sent a powerful message to the world beyond sport that there are people who consider this a subject worth discussing. I would be disappointed if this small but significant gesture was stopped, certainly until we had crowds back to witness it. We all know the power of a huge crowd respecting a minute's silence or the applause for a fellow supporter so please, let's keep it going.

I can't imagine why anyone would find it offensive unless they were perhaps on the other side of the argument and neither can I see why it should be stopped until those who are oppressed by systemic racism decide that they no longer find themselves disadvantaged.

[Sammy7nil]

^^Individual players can’t break ranks on this, they would instantly be labelled.

I’d imagine the league have agreed end of October as this is Black history month.

Lots of players in different sports don't take a knee as said previously they stand by their team mates but don't take a knee. No idea why some do or don't but I have not seen or heard a backlash.

[Andy74]

As someone who remembers the peaceful protests of the civil rights movement in America and the continuing struggle for equality and the simple fact that black lives matter, 'taking the knee' has sent a powerful message to the world beyond sport that there are people who consider this a subject worth discussing. I would be disappointed if this small but significant gesture was stopped, certainly until we had crowds back to witness it. We all know the power of a huge crowd respecting a minute's silence or the applause for a fellow supporter so please, let's keep it going.

I can't imagine why anyone would find it offensive unless they were perhaps on the other side of the argument and neither can I see why it should be stopped until those who are oppressed by systemic racism decide that they no longer find themselves disadvantaged.

At the end of the day it is a football game and it is good that football plays its part when it can to support these things. I think perhaps we have got to the stage where football or Sky or both feel that to not support stuff could be detrimental and it can be tokenism.

Your last sentence I’d find hard to support. Footballers to do this until racism is ended? There’s also other wrongs in the world. Do we add those in when they are in more focus?

Football has the ability to reach an audience and to influence but it’s also a game.

[Scouse Hibee]

We are on a thread talking about what is the best way to tackle racism....it is having an impact.

No we’re on a thread discussing the merits of taking the knee.

[blackpoolhibs]

Cant say i even notice it now, or if i do i dont suddenly think black lives matter.

[Bronson]

It’s turned into a pointless act of virtue-signalling and should have ended weeks ago imo. I’m really not a fan of these kind of things, same as the ‘clap for NHS’. Hollow, empty gestures with little to no impact.

Les Ferdinand decided to cancel it at QPR and he was spot on: https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/sportsnews/article-8755805/amp/QPR-chief-Les-Ferdinand-says-taking-knee-message-lost.html

[WhileTheChief..]

As someone who remembers the peaceful protests of the civil rights movement in America and the continuing struggle for equality and the simple fact that black lives matter, 'taking the knee' has sent a powerful message to the world beyond sport that there are people who consider this a subject worth discussing. I would be disappointed if this small but significant gesture was stopped, certainly until we had crowds back to witness it. We all know the power of a huge crowd respecting a minute's silence or the applause for a fellow supporter so please, let's keep it going.

I can't imagine why anyone would find it offensive unless they were perhaps on the other side of the argument and neither can I see why it should be stopped until those who are oppressed by systemic racism decide that they no longer find themselves disadvantaged.


Not seen anyone saying that they find players taking the knee offensive and I don't think I've ever seen anyone arguing that racism is a good thing.

[Scouse Hibee]

Cant say i even notice it now, or if i do i dont suddenly think black lives matter.

Which is my point completely.

[Jones28]

So far theres been a lot of negative talk, with only one alternative proposed by the Modfather. Where are the others who are finding it pointless, or describing it with that phrase that as become popular when a collective of people try to get a message across en masse: "virtue signalling".

[Hermit Crab]

The BLM stuff has almost completely disappeared from the news stories. Don't see why this knee thing needs to continue.

[Andy74]

So far theres been a lot of negative talk, with only one alternative proposed by the Modfather. Where are the others who are finding it pointless, or describing it with that phrase that as become popular when a collective of people try to get a message across en masse: "virtue signalling".

The question was whether this specific gesture was still effective and is it time to drop it.

Are you looking instead for a thesis from everyone on how to stop racism. A thing that has been ongoing for centuries?

[Scouse Hibee]

So far theres been a lot of negative talk, with only one alternative proposed by the Modfather. Where are the others who are finding it pointless, or describing it with that phrase that as become popular when a collective of people try to get a message across en masse: "virtue signalling".

Deary me, talk about trying to take a discussion in a different direction. “Virtue Signalling” indeed.

[EuanH78]

As someone who remembers the peaceful protests of the civil rights movement in America and the continuing struggle for equality and the simple fact that black lives matter, 'taking the knee' has sent a powerful message to the world beyond sport that there are people who consider this a subject worth discussing. I would be disappointed if this small but significant gesture was stopped, certainly until we had crowds back to witness it. We all know the power of a huge crowd respecting a minute's silence or the applause for a fellow supporter so please, let's keep it going.

I can't imagine why anyone would find it offensive unless they were perhaps on the other side of the argument and neither can I see why it should be stopped until those who are oppressed by systemic racism decide that they no longer find themselves disadvantaged.I'm with you on this.

Taking a knee should continue until the message no longer needs to be sent, however long that takes.



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[Jones28]

The question was whether this specific gesture was still effective and is it time to drop it.

Are you looking instead for a thesis from everyone on how to stop racism. A thing that has been ongoing for centuries?

I’m asking for some feedback ffs, hardly a thesis, it was an attempt to start a discussion about an idea that was floated by another poster.

[Jones28]

Deary me, talk about trying to take a discussion in a different direction. “Virtue Signalling” indeed.

No suggestions then? Cool.

[WhileTheChief..]

Probably plenty of forums that you can discuss ways of raising awareness of racism out there but most of us here want to keep this about Hibs and football I’d imagine.

[Scouse Hibee]

No suggestions then? Cool.

Yes I suggest we stop taking the knee.

[hibsbollah]

Yes I suggest we stop taking the knee.

Are you a professional football player? If not, then you’re misusing the ‘we’. And if you as a white man suggested to a black man taking the knee to stop taking the knee he’d be well within his rights to tell you to do one.

[Jones28]

Yes I suggest we stop taking the knee.

To what end? To allow it to slip away in to obscurity again and be reminded of its existence within football at 2 games a year where players hold up red cards and then it’s forgotten again?

[Scouse Hibee]

To what end? To allow it to slip away in to obscurity again and be reminded of its existence within football at 2 games a year where players hold up red cards and then it’s forgotten again?

Repeating myself again here, it’s my opinion that it has lost it’s impact and is now just dismissed as a motion without folk actually thinking about what it means.

[Scouse Hibee]

Are you a professional football player? If not, then you’re misusing the ‘we’. And if you as a white man suggested to a black man taking the knee to stop taking the knee he’d be well within his rights to tell you to do one.

Oh very good, I think I have repeated myself several times as to why I think it has lost it’s impact. You don’t have to agree with me, that’s fine.

[Jones28]

Repeating myself again here, it’s my opinion that it has lost it’s impact and is now just dismissed as a motion without folk actually thinking about what it means.

I’ll save bandwidth and call it a night. We agree to disagree.

[Scouse Hibee]

I’ll save bandwidth and call it a night. We agree to disagree.

That’s fine mate, we don’t have to agree on anything just voicing our different opinions 👍

[Viva_Palmeiras]

On a different m, yet similar theme I posted on my Fb about views on wearing of rainbow lanyards during gay pride. My thought that whilst it’s great there needs to be more than a token display, a slogan or hashtag.

My friend whilst agreeing to an extent said that it made him feel safer where folks took to wearing the lanyard/ displaying the flag / whatever.

So I wonder if perhaps we’re asking the wrong people...

To have a visual display of support from “allies” must be a fillip on one hand whilst on the other showing the ouvert and perhaps more important covert racists the strength of feeling and support against such prejudices.

[bigwheel]

On a different m, yet similar theme I posted on my Fb about views on wearing of rainbow lanyards during gay pride. My thought that whilst it’s great there needs to be more than a token display, a slogan or hashtag.

My friend whilst agreeing to an extent said that it made him feel safer where folks took to wearing the lanyard/ displaying the flag / whatever.

So I wonder if perhaps we’re asking the wrong people...

To have a visual display of support from “allies” must be a fillip on one hand whilst on the other showing the ouvert and perhaps more important covert racists the strength of feeling and support against such prejudices.

That’s a thoughtful point..those affected should be the voice that we listen most to on these topics.

[hibsbollah]

On a different m, yet similar theme I posted on my Fb about views on wearing of rainbow lanyards during gay pride. My thought that whilst it’s great there needs to be more than a token display, a slogan or hashtag.

My friend whilst agreeing to an extent said that it made him feel safer where folks took to wearing the lanyard/ displaying the flag / whatever.

So I wonder if perhaps we’re asking the wrong people...

To have a visual display of support from “allies” must be a fillip on one hand whilst on the other showing the ouvert and perhaps more important covert racists the strength of feeling and support against such prejudices.

Until the first gay player actually feels comfortable enough to come out, I think the rainbow lanyards will always have a limited effect. That’s the thing, there’s a lot of talk of how society has moved on from prejudice, but it really hasn’t. It’s insane that the extent of gay footballers being open about their sexuality was Justin Fashanu in 1990.

[RitchieHibs]

Maybe one day we'll actually reflect upon and rail against the fact that Britain has been openly discriminatory against Catholics and here in Scotland against those of a Hibs/Celtic persuasion for a very long time and continues to albeit it has been better of late thanks to latterly enlightened politics. Taking the knee deflects from this as its specific only to one minority. Maybe I'm too forthright.

[Scouse Hibee]

That’s a thoughtful point..those affected should be the voice that we listen most to on these topics.

Agreed that’s a very valid point.

[RitchieHibs]

Agreed that’s a very valid point.

Next you'll be saying anti catholicism here in Scotland isn't or hasn't ever been a thing :rolleyes:. Its been 100 per cent more of a discriminatory historic murderous issue than racism for many many a year. Nae worries Scouse. You go and have a cup of tea with your mason fiends.

[Scouse Hibee]

Next you'll be saying anti catholicism here in Scotland isn't or hasn't ever been a thing :rolleyes:. Its been 100 per cent more of a discriminatory historic murderous issue than racism for many many a year. Nae worries Scouse. You go and have a cup of tea with your mason fiends.

Wow!

I won’t be saying anything of the sort, religion and football don’t mix for me, never have.

Is this now becoming personal? You’ll be asking my religion next 😂

I don’t drink tea, not that it’s got anything to do with you who my friends are!

[basehibby]

I agree it will be losing impact - but is it really tiresome for the 15 seconds or so it takes ?

I would say so.

I consider myself anti-racist but have found myself wondering WTF is going on with the taking the knee thing seeming to go on indefinitely with no clear objective (eg as a protest against a specific policy). I think it was quite touching in the moment - like as a tribute to the victims - but that moment has long since past and it now just seems peculiar.

On another note, even though we have a very small black population, the BLM movement has had some local impact in Edinburgh as we've been moved to question the status of the elevated statue in St Andrew's Square of Henry Dundas - a man said to have been responsible for extending the legality of the slave trade for an extra 30 years. If that really is true then I would be very happy for the statue to be removed - but if that debate and others like it are just forgotten again then all the taking of the knee stuff is really just so much lip service.

[RitchieHibs]

Wow!

Is this now becoming personal?

I don’t drink tea, not that it’s got anything to do with you who my friends are!

Aye it is becoming personal when you argue against my rightful catholic Hibs/Celtic minded posts by saying you have 'masonic' friends.

Masons are most normally bitter Rangers/Hearts anti catholic anti Hibs/Celtic.

I have many truthful stories of good folk being denied life optimum opportunities here in Scotland for the crime of being a Catholic or not one of them Masons/Rangers/Hearts.

Thankfully, Independence will reset that.

:aok:

[heretoday]

Wow!

I won’t be saying anything of the sort, religion and football don’t mix for me, never have.

Is this now becoming personal? You’ll be asking my religion next 😂

I don’t drink tea, not that it’s got anything to do with you who my friends are!

Take the ☕ ....

[Scouse Hibee]

Aye it is becoming personal when you argue against my rightful catholic Hibs/Celtic minded posts by saying you have 'masonic' friends.

Masons are most normally bitter Rangers/Hearts anti catholic anti Hibs/Celtic.

I have many truthful stories of good folk being denied life optimum opportunities here in Scotland for the crime of being a Catholic or not one of them Masons/Rangers/Hearts.

Thankfully, Independence will reset that.

:aok:

😂😂😂

Aye okay then!

Only in Scotland.

[Scouse Hibee]

Take the ☕ ....

I think someone has taken something stronger!

[RitchieHibs]

😂😂😂

Aye okay then!

Only in Scotland.

Dearie me.

Nae worries.

Scouser.

:greengrin

[GORDONSMITH7]

Repeating myself again here, it’s my opinion that it has lost it’s impact and is now just dismissed as a motion without folk actually thinking about what it means.

Do you think that perhaps, using your logic, impact wise, we should gaffer tape over the slogan on the front of our strip at the end of this year perhaps.That is clearly me being rhetorical.

BIG G

[RitchieHibs]

Do you think that perhaps, using your logic, impact wise, we should gaffer tape over the slogan on the front of our strip at the end of this year perhaps.That is clearly me being rhetorical.

BIG G

No we shouldn't Big G. We should be going in ever stronger, harder then ever before. Our politicians are showing up as must we the Scottish folk lead against the British discrimination that has decimated our good folk. Good on you Big G.

[RitchieHibs]

I think someone has taken something stronger!

Maybe you didn't even realise you've taken a Rupert Murdoch strategy against someone who took an opposite view to your 'mason' friends.

No I hadn't taken class A drugs. A News of the World strategy Scouse.

What has beset you?

[Scouse Hibee]

Maybe you didn't even realise you've taken a Rupert Murdoch strategy against someone who took an opposite view to your 'mason' friends.

No I hadn't taken class A drugs. A News of the World strategy Scouse.

What has beset you?

I never mentioned Class A drugs 😂

You really are a bizarre chap, quite amusing at times. If only you could see the irony of your posts. YOU are part of the very problem you describe in nearly every post I have read from you. Have a think about that!

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

[Scouse Hibee]

Do you think that perhaps, using your logic, impact wise, we should gaffer tape over the slogan on the front of our strip at the end of this year perhaps.That is clearly me being rhetorical.

BIG G

You know you might have a point, in general any notice, slogan, advertisement or action becomes almost invisible after a period of times and needs refreshed to be noticed or make the desired impact again. Remind me, what’s on the front of our strip again?
That’s my point and logic, of course if you don’t agree that’s fine.

[Gloucester Hibs]

The Qatar World Cup in 2 years time will be an interesting one; a nation that still deploys actual slavery. Fully support taking a knee but this is where football ties itself in knots IMO.

[hibee]

The Qatar World Cup in 2 years time will be an interesting one; a nation that still deploys actual slavery. Fully support taking a knee but this is where football ties itself in knots IMO.

Totally agree, it takes these slaves around two years to pay off their debt to the company employing them before they start earning and that’s if they are one of the “lucky” ones who actually receive their wages.

I don’t understand why we don’t hear anyone protesting about this on social media, the World Cup will go ahead as planned and FIFA will enjoy spending their money without a second thought for the thousands of people who’s lives have been ruined or lost.

[wookie70]

It may have lost some impact but it still sends a message and by keeping it going at least a message is being sent. Keep taking the knee until another better or more effective way of sending the message is found.

I love the saying " We are all Jock Tamson's bairns" and that could be something that could be incorporated into a particularly Scottish message. It is cheesy but the players could hold a banner when they do the line up in front of the stand and then go on to take the knee.

Something as simple as the players taking the knee in a line or a circle with both teams mixed (Team A player, Team B player, Team A player etc) and together would send a stronger message than just kneeling for a second or two in formation. In short keep it but change it slightly to give commentators something different to say and to make the message stronger.

[Andy74]

It may have lost some impact but it still sends a message and by keeping it going at least a message is being sent. Keep taking the knee until another better or more effective way of sending the message is found.

I love the saying " We are all Jock Tamson's bairns" and that could be something that could be incorporated into a particularly Scottish message. It is cheesy but the players could hold a banner when they do the line up in front of the stand and then go on to take the knee.

Something as simple as the players taking the knee in a line or a circle with both teams mixed (Team A player, Team B player, Team A player etc) and together would send a stronger message than just kneeling for a second or two in formation. In short keep it but change it slightly to give commentators something different to say and to make the message stronger.

My question would still be what it is about football where the audience needs this message every game and whether that is actually effective or just becomes totally lost.

I get that we have an audience but the point has been clearly made by the sport as a whole.

I don’t get it when I start work, go shopping, watch TV shows (in the main).

It’s a game and shouldn’t necessarily be solving all the world’s issues all the time.

Far more important to ensure we are robust in ensuring racism isn’t tolerated and that the sport is accessible to all rather than an ongoing token on a specific movement for how long?

[DH1875]

First of all catholics can become a mason. It was the Catholic church that said catholics aren't allowed to join not the Masons. Catholics are free to join and as well as Catholics there are also many Jewish masons. It's not just a protestant thing.
Secondly, most people who join, ASK to join. Anyone can ask although doesn't mean your accepted. Best way to do it is to ask someone you know to put you forward but technically there's nothing stopping you going into local hall and asking them if you can join. Your name is then put forward and they decide if they want you or not (after they've done some checks on you).
Hibs are a club from an Irish Catholic background and if folk want to identify with that then that's their right and is fair enough. But if that is your stance then rightly or wrongly can you really complain if hearts or rangers fans take a similar view regarding their clubs. That's not what is all about for me. Couldn't give a toss about religion and in my opinion has no place in sport. To me Hibs are an inclusive club and all are welcome. Doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, your welcome at Easter Rd. Plenty of protestant hibs fans out there and no doubt a few masons to.
Take a knee if you want, dont if you dont want too just dont judge the person doing tho opposite to you, maybe they have their reasons. Just getting fed up with it all now and wish everyone could just get on in life and stop all this kite.
All lives matter and if your religious and religion is important to you then all religions matter too.

[Pagan Hibernia]

First of all catholics can become a mason. It was the Catholic church that said catholics aren't allowed to join not the Masons. Catholics are free to join and as well as Catholics there are also many Jewish masons. It's not just a protestant thing.
Secondly, most people who join, ASK to join. Anyone can ask although doesn't mean your accepted. Best way to do it is to ask someone you know to put you forward but technically there's nothing stopping you going into local hall and asking them if you can join. Your name is then put forward and they decide if they want you or not (after they've done some checks on you).
Hibs are a club from an Irish Catholic background and if folk want to identify with that then that's their right and is fair enough. But if that is your stance then rightly or wrongly can you really complain if hearts or rangers fans take a similar view regarding their clubs. That's not what is all about for me. Couldn't give a toss about religion and in my opinion has no place in sport. To me Hibs are an inclusive club and all are welcome. Doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, your welcome at Easter Rd. Plenty of protestant hibs fans out there and no doubt a few masons to.
Take a knee if you want, dont if you dont want too just dont judge the person doing tho opposite to you, maybe they have their reasons. Just getting fed up with it all now and wish everyone could just get on in life and stop all this kite.
All lives matter and if your religious and religion is important to you then all religions matter too.

Hibs Irish origins matter to me but only inwardly and I would never even think about bringing an Irish flag to a game. There’s just no need.

Catholicism doesn’t even come in to my thinking. I’ve never ever thought of Hibs as a ‘Catholic’ club

[matty_f]

My question would still be what it is about football where the audience needs this message every game and whether that is actually effective or just becomes totally lost.

I get that we have an audience but the point has been clearly made by the sport as a whole.

I don’t get it when I start work, go shopping, watch TV shows (in the main).

It’s a game and shouldn’t necessarily be solving all the world’s issues all the time.

Far more important to ensure we are robust in ensuring racism isn’t tolerated and that the sport is accessible to all rather than an ongoing token on a specific movement for how long?

If you get that football has an audience then you can see why it can be used for good? Football also has a racism problem, whether folk want to look that in the face or not.

The argument that 'other places don't do it, so why should football?' is back to front. The argument should be 'football is doing it, so why aren't these other places?'

[FilipinoHibs]

I think we have shown our solidarity with BLM, universally across the top league in Scotland. This has been heartening. Also, we have had show racism the red card for sometime. Racist views are only a very small minority amongst the fans of most clubs in Scotland. Time to move on as the knee is losing its impact. End of October as people suggested as this month black history month.

[Andy74]

If you get that football has an audience then you can see why it can be used for good? Football also has a racism problem, whether folk want to look that in the face or not.

The argument that 'other places don't do it, so why should football?' is back to front. The argument should be 'football is doing it, so why aren't these other places?'

Football is doing it. Every game. I don’t think it needs done in perpetuity particularly when it it is a societal problem and it is out of scale already on what others are doing.

It is the real actions that are being taken which will make the real change. As a gesture I think this has run its course.

[matty_f]

Football is doing it. Every game. I don’t think it needs done in perpetuity particularly when it it is a societal problem and it is out of scale already on what others are doing.

It is the real actions that are being taken which will make the real change. As a gesture I think this has run its course.

The gesture serves as a reminder that it's still an issue. I hope they continue to do it. Every game.

I don't get the 'out of scale' point, football should do something but just not as much as it's doing? Is that about right? Others are doing less so football should also do less?


The other point I'd make is that, in the spirit of the gesture, we should be very careful about who gets to decide when it's run its course.

[matty_f]

I think we have shown our solidarity with BLM, universally across the top league in Scotland. This has been heartening. Also, we have had show racism the red card for sometime. Racist views are only a very small minority amongst the fans of most clubs in Scotland. Time to move on as the knee is losing its impact. End of October as people suggested as this month black history month.

Do you think you're best placed to say when it's run its course?

"Ok lads, we've done the token gesture now, they've made their point, can we wrap it up now?"

[mutley]

Aye it is becoming personal when you argue against my rightful catholic Hibs/Celtic minded posts by saying you have 'masonic' friends.

Masons are most normally bitter Rangers/Hearts anti catholic anti Hibs/Celtic.

I have many truthful stories of good folk being denied life optimum opportunities here in Scotland for the crime of being a Catholic or not one of them Masons/Rangers/Hearts.

Thankfully, Independence will reset that.

:aok:


I just though i would try and clarify something here. You seem to have a "thing" against all things Masonic. Now then, I bet you have no idea how many Freemasons attend Easter Road? because I know a LOT.

And usually this drivel comes from someone who has absolutely no understanding what the Masons area actually about.

[mutley]

First of all catholics can become a mason. It was the Catholic church that said catholics aren't allowed to join not the Masons. Catholics are free to join and as well as Catholics there are also many Jewish masons. It's not just a protestant thing.
Secondly, most people who join, ASK to join. Anyone can ask although doesn't mean your accepted. Best way to do it is to ask someone you know to put you forward but technically there's nothing stopping you going into local hall and asking them if you can join. Your name is then put forward and they decide if they want you or not (after they've done some checks on you).
Hibs are a club from an Irish Catholic background and if folk want to identify with that then that's their right and is fair enough. But if that is your stance then rightly or wrongly can you really complain if hearts or rangers fans take a similar view regarding their clubs. That's not what is all about for me. Couldn't give a toss about religion and in my opinion has no place in sport. To me Hibs are an inclusive club and all are welcome. Doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, your welcome at Easter Rd. Plenty of protestant hibs fans out there and no doubt a few masons to.
Take a knee if you want, dont if you dont want too just dont judge the person doing tho opposite to you, maybe they have their reasons. Just getting fed up with it all now and wish everyone could just get on in life and stop all this kite.
All lives matter and if your religious and religion is important to you then all religions matter too.


Yes correct, I know several catholic masons, in fact you can follow ANY religion to join, I also know Jewish and Islamic Freemasons.

[EI255]

If we're being hyper critical here then some managers don't actually take the knee. They mimic it because they don't want to get their suit trousers knees dirty. Fact.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[stuart-farquhar]

I just though i would try and clarify something here. You seem to have a "thing" against all things Masonic. Now then, I bet you have no idea how many Freemasons attend Easter Road? because I know a LOT.

And usually this drivel comes from someone who has absolutely no understanding what the Masons area actually about.

I'd like to know what they do. Please tell me. PM if you like.

[Dalianwanda]

There’s a danger of looking at the finger when pointing to the moon. We get caught up in the act rather than what it represents. This has to stay out there & we have to keep speaking about it or nothing will change. Even at this stage it’s keeping the conversation going but if the conversation is around the action rather than intention maybe it’s time for another approach.

[Risboro Hibby]

If we're being hyper critical here then some managers don't actually take the knee. They mimic it because they don't want to get their suit trousers knees dirty. Fact.

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk
This is where you have to feel sorry for Roy Hodgson. The poor guy tries to take the knee but at his age really struggles to get up again. Still I am not too far away from that problem myself

[hibby rae]

First of all catholics can become a mason. It was the Catholic church that said catholics aren't allowed to join not the Masons. Catholics are free to join and as well as Catholics there are also many Jewish masons. It's not just a protestant thing.
Secondly, most people who join, ASK to join. Anyone can ask although doesn't mean your accepted. Best way to do it is to ask someone you know to put you forward but technically there's nothing stopping you going into local hall and asking them if you can join. Your name is then put forward and they decide if they want you or not (after they've done some checks on you).
Hibs are a club from an Irish Catholic background and if folk want to identify with that then that's their right and is fair enough. But if that is your stance then rightly or wrongly can you really complain if hearts or rangers fans take a similar view regarding their clubs. That's not what is all about for me. Couldn't give a toss about religion and in my opinion has no place in sport. To me Hibs are an inclusive club and all are welcome. Doesn't matter what colour or religion you are, your welcome at Easter Rd. Plenty of protestant hibs fans out there and no doubt a few masons to.
Take a knee if you want, dont if you dont want too just dont judge the person doing tho opposite to you, maybe they have their reasons. Just getting fed up with it all now and wish everyone could just get on in life and stop all this kite.
All lives matter and if your religious and religion is important to you then all religions matter too.

No one has ever said they don't, but some lives are discriminated against more, and are under threat more, historically and in the present day. And they are the ones that need allies.

[Shrekko]

The comments on the ‘Show Racism the Red Card’ post by the Hibs Facebook feed makes uncomfortable reading:

[Keith_M]

Next you'll be saying anti catholicism here in Scotland isn't or hasn't ever been a thing :rolleyes:. Its been 100 per cent more of a discriminatory historic murderous issue than racism for many many a year. Nae worries Scouse. You go and have a cup of tea with your mason fiends.


Could you please stop trolling.

[jacomo]

My question would still be what it is about football where the audience needs this message every game and whether that is actually effective or just becomes totally lost.

I get that we have an audience but the point has been clearly made by the sport as a whole.

I don’t get it when I start work, go shopping, watch TV shows (in the main).

It’s a game and shouldn’t necessarily be solving all the world’s issues all the time.

Far more important to ensure we are robust in ensuring racism isn’t tolerated and that the sport is accessible to all rather than an ongoing token on a specific movement for how long?


It’s political because in America where all this started, it has become part of the culture war and Colin Kapernick lost his job.

So, well done football. Maybe folk are getting bored of it but don’t point the finger at players taking the knee - blame the context in which players feel they need to do so.

Life is politics. Professing no interest in politics is a political decision.

[matty_f]

The comments on the ‘Show Racism the Red Card’ post by the Hibs Facebook feed makes uncomfortable reading:

:agree: Grim.

[Vault Boy]

The comments on the ‘Show Racism the Red Card’ post by the Hibs Facebook feed makes uncomfortable reading:

I don't doubt that for a second. I won't even check, as it'll only serve to anger me.

Conversely, there's nothing untoward on the Twitter equivalent. I think that perhaps speaks for the difference in user demographics, as well, perhaps, that Facebook functionally lends itself more closely to the layout of a forum than Twitter does.

Either way, they exist absolutely everywhere within society and seem to be sincerely unaware that they are part of the reason that groups like SRTRC Scotland need to exist.

[delbert]

Is this still effective?

When it first happened it sent a very strong message, now, it just seems to be something players do at the start of a match and has little impact.

Time to drop this?

Completely agree with the message, just don’t think it is a powerful message anymore.

Sorry but what did taking the knee actually accomplish ? I was already aware that racism is abhorrent and vile, so how exactly was it ever all that effective ?

[jacomo]

Sorry but what did taking the knee actually accomplish ? I was already aware that racism is abhorrent and vile, so how exactly was it ever all that effective ?


It’s about highlighting systemic bias against people with different colour skin. Obviously Covid is dominating everything at the moment but I know a number of companies who are recognising that they need to change how they operate, so it is achieving change. I guess it’s not aimed at you.

[matty_f]

It’s about highlighting systemic bias against people with different colour skin. Obviously Covid is dominating everything at the moment but I know a number of companies who are recognising that they need to change how they operate, so it is achieving change. I guess it’s not aimed at you.

I think it's served a number of purposes, it's given people the opportunity to show solidarity with the movement, and it's encouraged a shift in tone where you're hearing more that it's not enough to just not be a racist, you need to be anti-racist - it requires action.

[Andy74]

I think it's served a number of purposes, it's given people the opportunity to show solidarity with the movement, and it's encouraged a shift in tone where you're hearing more that it's not enough to just not be a racist, you need to be anti-racist - it requires action.

I don't think any of that has specifically been achieved by taking the knee at football games though. I don't think anyone would be questioning the wider movement (although some have issues with the actual BLM group) just whether this gesture at every game is still something that is having any impact.

Racism is unfortunately likely to be an issue all of our lives - is that how long this gesture should go on for or should it now be progressed in other ways?

[matty_f]

I don't think any of that has specifically been achieved by taking the knee at football games though. I don't think anyone would be questioning the wider movement (although some have issues with the actual BLM group) just whether this gesture at every game is still something that is having any impact.

Racism is unfortunately likely to be an issue all of our lives - is that how long this gesture should go on for or should it now be progressed in other ways?
It's maybe not had the impact you were looking for yet. Maybe it does need to go on indefinitely?

There's a widely accepted line now that consistency is better than intensity, so having multiple different gestures is less effective than consistently making the same gesture.

The fact that racism is likely to be with us all our lives makes it more necessary to stand against it, not less.

So long as us white guys don't get bored of it though, eh?

[Andy74]

It's maybe not had the impact you were looking for yet. Maybe it does need to go on indefinitely?

There's a widely accepted line now that consistency is better than intensity, so having multiple different gestures is less effective than consistently making the same gesture.

The fact that racism is likely to be with us all our lives makes it more necessary to stand against it, not less.

So long as us white guys don't get bored of it though, eh?

Isn’t it the white guys who’s behaviour it is looking to change? In that sense yes it is a consideration that a prolonged gesture starts to be at best diluted and at worst something that turns people against the message.

[matty_f]

https://twitter.com/livifcofficial/status/1318594517038256128?s=21

[matty_f]

Isn’t it the white guys who’s behaviour it is looking to change? In that sense yes it is a consideration that a prolonged gesture starts to be at best diluted and at worst something that turns people against the message.

It is, and perhaps sticking with the message until they realise how moronic racist attitudes are, by putting them out and annoying them, whatever, is what's needed, along with whatever else it takes to do it.

The attitude that it should stop now because those people think it's run its course just shows the contempt that's held towards the message.

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our time, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it."

[Andy74]

It is, and perhaps sticking with the message until they realise how moronic racist attitudes are, by putting them out and annoying them, whatever, is what's needed, along with whatever else it takes to do it.

The attitude that it should stop now because those people think it's run its course just shows the contempt that's held towards the message.

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our times, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it."

Les Ferdinand is a black man and this is what he said:

“The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’, but little more than that,” Ferdinand said. “The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.

“What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next 10 years, but see no actual progress made?

“Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game – actions will.”

[Dalianwanda]

I don't doubt that for a second. I won't even check, as it'll only serve to anger me.

Conversely, there's nothing untoward on the Twitter equivalent. I think that perhaps speaks for the difference in user demographics, as well, perhaps, that Facebook functionally lends itself more closely to the layout of a forum than Twitter does.

Either way, they exist absolutely everywhere within society and seem to be sincerely unaware that they are part of the reason that groups like SRTRC Scotland need to exist.

I’m pretty stunned by some of the comments. Tried to call out one of them but down to his responses guess he’s just trolling.

[Andy74]

It is, and perhaps sticking with the message until they realise how moronic racist attitudes are, by putting them out and annoying them, whatever, is what's needed, along with whatever else it takes to do it.

The attitude that it should stop now because those people think it's run its course just shows the contempt that's held towards the message.

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our time, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it."

Matty, I also think you are better than putting those sort of words into this when we are talking about whether it will continue to be effective or not.

That is quite obviously miles away from what is being discussed.

[matty_f]

Les Ferdinand is a black man and this is what he said:

“The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’, but little more than that,” Ferdinand said. “The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.

“What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next 10 years, but see no actual progress made?

“Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game – actions will.”

Yes, and as a black man he spoke for all black men, clearly.

Taking the knee on its own will not bring about change, but taking the knee along with action will help.

[matty_f]

Matty, I also think you are better than putting those sort of words into this when we are talking about whether it will continue to be effective or not.

That is quite obviously miles away from what is being discussed.

You don't need to be patronising. It's not miles away, it's exactly how it comes across. We're (white guys) kind of fed up with it all now, so can we stop now?

[Scouse Hibee]

You don't need to be patronising. It's not miles away, it's exactly how it comes across. We're (white guys) kind of fed up with it all now, so can we stop now?

That’s not what’s been said at all on this thread unless I have missed it. Some including myself have questioned wether the action is now having the desired impact. You are miles off with your wording.

[matty_f]

That’s not what’s been said at all on this thread unless I have missed it. Some including myself have questioned wether the action is now having the desired impact. You are miles off with your wording.

I don’t think I am. I think that’s the undertone to it.

[Scouse Hibee]

I don’t think I am. I think that’s the undertone to it.

It’s not my undertone but then again I don’t speak for every white man.

[matty_f]

It’s not my undertone but then again I don’t speak for every white man.

I appreciate that. :aok:

[Hiber-nation]

Les Ferdinand is a black man and this is what he said:

“The taking of the knee has reached a point of ‘good PR’, but little more than that,” Ferdinand said. “The message has been lost. It is now not dissimilar to a fancy hashtag or a nice pin badge.

“What are our plans with this? Will people be happy for players to take the knee for the next 10 years, but see no actual progress made?

“Taking the knee will not bring about change in the game – actions will.”

The authorities should be listening to Les. He's spot on as far as I'm concerned.

[WhileTheChief..]

Yes, and as a black man he spoke for all black men, clearly.

Taking the knee on its own will not bring about change, but taking the knee along with action will help.

What do you do differently now in your life since the killing of George Floyd?

I mean actions you’ve taken, not just posting online?

It’s easy for anyone to post about how much they care but if you’re not doing anything differently now are you not the same as those who think it’s merely a gesture?

[matty_f]

What do you do differently now in your life since the killing of George Floyd?

I mean actions you’ve taken, not just posting online?

It’s easy for anyone to post about how much they care but if you’re not doing anything differently now are you not the same as those who think it’s merely a gesture?

A few things. First thing was to look at whether i was just not racist or whether i was anti-racist, i was the former and now I’m more the latter.

I’ve got involved in diversity groups at work, spoken to my kids at length about the issue. I’ve challenged racism where I’ve seen it, including asking friends in WhatsApp groups etc not to share content that could be considered racist because i don’t want to be associated with it.

I’m working from home, so I’m not out and about on the streets doing things , if that’s what you mean, but i have educated myself on the topic to try to understand why the message is important, why things like taking the knee are necessary and to understand the context of BLM.

That’s as well as having online discussions, which are still relevant.

[Scouse Hibee]

A few things. First thing was to look at whether i was just not racist or whether i was anti-racist, i was the former and now I’m more the latter.

I’ve got involved in diversity groups at work, spoken to my kids at length about the issue. I’ve challenged racism where I’ve seen it, including asking friends in WhatsApp groups etc not to share content that could be considered racist because i don’t want to be associated with it.

I’m working from home, so I’m not out and about on the streets doing things , if that’s what you mean, but i have educated myself on the topic to try to understand why the message is important, why things like taking the knee are necessary and to understand the context of BLM.

That’s as well as having online discussions, which are still relevant.

With regard to your WhatsApp group issues, can I ask how was that received by your friends, did they all observe your wishes, did you lose any friends over it or have you purposely dropped friends because of it.
I ask because I recently had a similar issue, not racist content but something else I didn’t appreciate and found tiresome of receiving.

[hibsbollah]

It is, and perhaps sticking with the message until they realise how moronic racist attitudes are, by putting them out and annoying them, whatever, is what's needed, along with whatever else it takes to do it.

The attitude that it should stop now because those people think it's run its course just shows the contempt that's held towards the message.

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our time, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it."

I hope you don’t mind me borrowing that last paragraph for the purposes of putting certain people I know back in their box, tremendous:top marks

[matty_f]

With regard to your WhatsApp group issues, can I ask how was that received by your friends, did they all observe your wishes, did you lose any friends over it or have you purposely dropped friends because of it.
I ask because I recently had a similar issue, not racist content but something else I didn’t appreciate and found tiresome of receiving.
It went down better than expected. I posted it across 3 or 4 groups and right away i got messages saying people agreed (on the same groups) and a few more messages in private saying well done for saying it, folk were worried about being seen as a killjoy etc.

If it helps, I can PM you what i sent?

[WhileTheChief..]

A few things. First thing was to look at whether i was just not racist or whether i was anti-racist, i was the former and now I’m more the latter.

I’ve got involved in diversity groups at work, spoken to my kids at length about the issue. I’ve challenged racism where I’ve seen it, including asking friends in WhatsApp groups etc not to share content that could be considered racist because i don’t want to be associated with it.

I’m working from home, so I’m not out and about on the streets doing things , if that’s what you mean, but i have educated myself on the topic to try to understand why the message is important, why things like taking the knee are necessary and to understand the context of BLM.

That’s as well as having online discussions, which are still relevant.

Fair play then, genuinely.

I’ll be honest, I’ve done nothing differently at all.

I wasn’t a racist then and I’m not now. There is however a narrative, or undertone if you like, which suggests that unless you are now actively doing something against racism that you are part of the problem. I disagree entirely with that.

Bringing it back to the original question, my fear is that if one club, let’s say Hibs, stopped bending the knee, we would be labelled as racist.

I think that’s the only reason it’s still going on. No one wants to be first to step out of line out of fear. That’s not good, no matter how noble the intentions are.

[Scouse Hibee]

It went down better than expected. I posted it across 3 or 4 groups and right away i got messages saying people agreed (on the same groups) and a few more messages in private saying well done for saying it, folk were worried about being seen as a killjoy etc.

If it helps, I can PM you what i sent?

Yeah if you don’t mind, that would be appreciated. I have dealt with the issue I was having and had to be pretty forceful with one guy in particular who had convinced himself I was joking and couldn’t possibly be offended by some of the stuff he was sending!

[matty_f]

Yeah if you don’t mind, that would be appreciated. I have dealt with the issue I was having and had to be pretty forceful with one guy in particular who had convinced himself I was joking and couldn’t possibly be offended by some of the stuff he was sending!

Sent it to you, mate.

Happy to share with anyone else in a similar situation.

[Scouse Hibee]

Sent it to you, mate.

Happy to share with anyone else in a similar situation.

👍

[Mibbes Aye]

The gesture serves as a reminder that it's still an issue. I hope they continue to do it. Every game.

I don't get the 'out of scale' point, football should do something but just not as much as it's doing? Is that about right? Others are doing less so football should also do less?


The other point I'd make is that, in the spirit of the gesture, we should be very careful about who gets to decide when it's run its course.

Great post and last sentence especially.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Great post and last sentence especially.

“Yeah - see now that Black History Month thingy is over let’s forget about this ‘take the knee’ stuff” imagine....

[Rumble de Thump]

Fair play then, genuinely.

I’ll be honest, I’ve done nothing differently at all.

I wasn’t a racist then and I’m not now. There is however a narrative, or undertone if you like, which suggests that unless you are now actively doing something against racism that you are part of the problem. I disagree entirely with that.

Bringing it back to the original question, my fear is that if one club, let’s say Hibs, stopped bending the knee, we would be labelled as racist.

I think that’s the only reason it’s still going on. No one wants to be first to step out of line out of fear. That’s not good, no matter how noble the intentions are.

It's still going on because PFA Scotland and Show Racism The Red Card planned for it to be done until the end of the Show Racism The Red Card Fornight Of Action. It gives players in lower leagues and women's football the opportunity to show their support and is part of a range of initiatives.

[Jones28]

The comments on the ‘Show Racism the Red Card’ post by the Hibs Facebook feed makes uncomfortable reading:

It’s awful. I honestly didn’t think we had supporters like that amongst us. Naive on my part.

[Pagan Hibernia]

It’s awful. I honestly didn’t think we had supporters like that amongst us. Naive on my part.

bad apples in every crop. No support is immune

[Andy74]

I don’t think I am. I think that’s the undertone to it.

Miles off and frankly pretty uncalled for and not at all in keeping with what I or anyone else has been saying. Lost a lot of respect for you that you've gone down that route and seem to think it is fine.

[Sir David Gray]

Fair play then, genuinely.

I’ll be honest, I’ve done nothing differently at all.

I wasn’t a racist then and I’m not now. There is however a narrative, or undertone if you like, which suggests that unless you are now actively doing something against racism that you are part of the problem. I disagree entirely with that.

Bringing it back to the original question, my fear is that if one club, let’s say Hibs, stopped bending the knee, we would be labelled as racist.

I think that’s the only reason it’s still going on. No one wants to be first to step out of line out of fear. That’s not good, no matter how noble the intentions are.

Agree with this, good post.

[bigwheel]

The gesture serves as a reminder that it's still an issue. I hope they continue to do it. Every game.

I don't get the 'out of scale' point, football should do something but just not as much as it's doing? Is that about right? Others are doing less so football should also do less?


The other point I'd make is that, in the spirit of the gesture, we should be very careful about who gets to decide when it's run its course.

Matty, it’s a bold uncomfortable message you have taken on this thread. I applaud it. Many will disagree and push back, but the essence of the points you make are so right in my view. Those affected by racism are those who should shape the next steps, not white scottish males.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

Matty, it’s a bold uncomfortable message you have taken on this thread. I applaud it. Many will disagree and push back, but the essence of the points you make are so right in my view. Those affected by racism are those who should shape the next steps, not white scottish males.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Thanks, that’s appreciated. :agree:

[matty_f]

Great post and last sentence especially.

Thanks.

[matty_f]

Miles off and frankly pretty uncalled for and not at all in keeping with what I or anyone else has been saying. Lost a lot of respect for you that you've gone down that route and seem to think it is fine.

I can live with that.

[StevesFamau5]

The gesture serves as a reminder that it's still an issue. I hope they continue to do it. Every game.

I don't get the 'out of scale' point, football should do something but just not as much as it's doing? Is that about right? Others are doing less so football should also do less?


The other point I'd make is that, in the spirit of the gesture, we should be very careful about who gets to decide when it's run its course.Having spent the last half hour reading through the thread I feel that this and your earlier point

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our time, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it"

I have to say that I haven't been in agreement with something as much as this for a long time. Great posts Matty.

Interestingly enough I was discussing the BLM movement recently disappearing from the top mainstream media reports with a colleague who was genuinely surprised that in top flight football people were still taking the knee. It raises a point that those who are unaware of the continued reason behind it are probably forgetting the message it represents or am I way off base there?

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

Having spent the last half hour reading through the thread I feel that this and your earlier point

"Run along now, black people and that, we've played a long a bit but frankly we find it tedious now, so we've decided that you've had long enough to make your stand. You've not changed anything in the couple of months you've been allowed to do this so it's clearly a waste of all our time, so just go back to being shot at and that until we let you have another go at it"

I have to say that I haven't been in agreement with something as much as this for a long time. Great posts Matty.

Interestingly enough I was discussing the BLM movement recently disappearing from the top mainstream media reports with a colleague who was genuinely surprised that in top flight football people were still taking the knee. It raises a point that those who are unaware of the continued reason behind it are probably forgetting the message it represents or am I way off base there?

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

Thanks, that’s much appreciated.

[Brizo]

“Yeah - see now that Black History Month thingy is over let’s forget about this ‘take the knee’ stuff” imagine....

I haven't seen anyone making that point on here so don't really know who you are meant to be quoting... unless you've made up an imaginary quote to suit your own argument!

In my post on page 1, I said I felt that taking the knee had lost its initial impact and that the end of BLM month seemed to me to be a good point to end this particular initiative. That didn't mean that different initiatives shouldn't replace it to keep the issue at the forefront of people's minds.

Any disagreement on this thread is on how effective taking the knee is if it's done over a prolonged period of time and whether that longevity reduces its impact. It's a pity that some people are choosing to interpret that legitimate viewpoint as something else.

[mutley]

I'd like to know what they do. Please tell me. PM if you like.


PM sent

[Jones28]

Matty has - not for the first time - perfectly summed up my feelings on this issue. :aok:

[hibby rae]

A study has been conducted which sadly, and unsurprisingly, shows racist abuse of players on social media rises when they comment about racism, whether this is their own experiences or on a wider scale.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=774073400054179

I honestly don't understand the mindset of these people. And I don't think I ever will. Why is their first response when a person of colour talks about being on the receiving end of racism to attack them? I don't understand why when someone says 'this has happened to me' or 'this needs to change' they discount it or adopt whataboutism. You will see it on any article about Black History Month for example.

And I'm not even talking about your EDL or Britain First knuckle dragger, I mean people who you would think were an average man or woman who have adopted this mindset.

[matty_f]

A study has been conducted which sadly, and unsurprisingly, shows racist abuse of players on social media rises when they comment about racism, whether this is their own experiences or on a wider scale.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=774073400054179

I honestly don't understand the mindset of these people. And I don't think I ever will. Why is their first response when a person of colour talks about being on the receiving end of racism to attack them? I don't understand why when someone says 'this has happened to me' or 'this needs to change' they discount it or adopt whataboutism. You will see it on any article about Black History Month for example.

And I'm not even talking about your EDL or Britain First knuckle dragger, I mean people who you would think were an average man or woman who have adopted this mindset.

It's brutal, I have no idea why folk feel the need to do stuff like that. Like jumping in with "all lives matter" or "white lives matter" in response to BLM. Some of it is ignorance - I think the very first time I saw the BLM slogan I thought "actually, all lives matter would be better" but then you read about it and hopefully understand why it's not better, it's completely inappropriate.

As for abusing people, I don't get it at all. Imagine being so insecure about yourself that you can't even let someone talk about their own experiences of being on the receiving end of racism.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

It's brutal, I have no idea why folk feel the need to do stuff like that. Like jumping in with "all lives matter" or "white lives matter" in response to BLM. Some of it is ignorance - I think the very first time I saw the BLM slogan I thought "actually, all lives matter would be better" but then you read about it and hopefully understand why it's not better, it's completely inappropriate.

As for abusing people, I don't get it at all. Imagine being so insecure about yourself that you can't even let someone talk about their own experiences of being on the receiving end of racism.

Can only imagine it’s the algorithms dudes. (Have you seen the Social Dilemma on Nextflix?) the easiest thing to do to get traffic is to say something outrageous. You reaping it just perpetuates it.

Between trolls and bots and wind-up merchants, I really have come to the conclusion that by and large it’s a mugs game to take most things online seriously. The conversations played out here just wouldn’t happen down the pub (if they were open!).

We really have created a monster and I don’t by the crocodile tears of some of the shirkers on the Social Dilemma documentary - the Facebook Monetisation guy - sorry THAT is on you!

The most beneficial and radical thing you can have your kids do is unplug them from this sheet. “Friends”, “likes”, “followers”, self proclaimed “influencers” all hollow concepts warped from the reality. Many years ago now I met a lecturer who taught leadership. His class thought Jordan was a leader as she had 2M followers online. Billy Connolly would have a field day (remember when he tore into “lifestyle experts”?!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I haven't seen anyone making that point on here so don't really know who you are meant to be quoting... unless you've made up an imaginary quote to suit your own argument!

In my post on page 1, I said I felt that taking the knee had lost its initial impact and that the end of BLM month seemed to me to be a good point to end this particular initiative. That didn't mean that different initiatives shouldn't replace it to keep the issue at the forefront of people's minds.

Any disagreement on this thread is on how effective taking the knee is if it's done over a prolonged period of time and whether that longevity reduces its impact. It's a pity that some people are choosing to interpret that legitimate viewpoint as something else.

The clue is in “ Can you imagine...”. I was of course being hypothetical.
Twist my argument if you like but further than this clarification I’m out.