Post Truth Society.

[Hibrandenburg]

More and more I feel we have rejected academia and are embracing conspiracy, superstition, archaic values and snake oil salesmen.

What's gone wrong? Why is this happening and where will it end?

[matty_f]

More and more I feel we have rejected academia and are embracing conspiracy, superstition, archaic values and snake oil salesmen.

What's gone wrong? Why is this happening and where will it end?

It’s because we’re being manipulated consistently with stuff on social media, we have politicians that completely lie - not even “could be true, at a stretch lies, but outright, demonstrably false lies, we have a complicit media that serves its owners so rather than hear about the £100m awarded to a new company without tender, we hear about Katie Price getting her chest increased/decreased/rented out for advertising/whatever.

We have social media that is targeted to give you information, factual or fictional, so regularly and so intensively that it becomes accepted wisdom, and because it does the same with people you respond to, they reinforce that thinking by backing it up/repeating it.

We have politicians who tell us “people are fed up of experts” so actual scientific evidence or facts are dismissed as “fake news” or irrelevant because Dave from Wrexham works beside someone from the NHS and knows what’s really going on.

Above all, we have more than a generation worth of voters who are completely unserved by and totally disengaged with the political system, so they don’t vote or campaign or hold anyone to account so the *******s get to do it again and again and again.

You have a situation where the so-called leader of the free world is a proven and habitual liar, and we have the same running our country.

Is a horrible situation, deeply disturbing and I’m at a complete loss as to how to get past out without folk rejecting the current system en mass and there being some sort of uprising, but that’s about as likely as me getting my nat king cole with whichever stunningly attractive actress is topical right now.

[lapsedhibee]

What's gone wrong? Why is this happening and where will it end?

1) Internet
2) Internet
3) USA in November, when Trump gets told to bolt.

[easty]

More and more I feel we have rejected academia and are embracing conspiracy, superstition, archaic values and snake oil salesmen.

What's gone wrong? Why is this happening and where will it end?

I’m not so sure. I think that the conspiracy nuts just shout louder.

I still think the majority of people aren’t idiots, we just keep it to ourselves.

[Keith_M]

More and more I feel we have rejected academia and are embracing conspiracy, superstition, archaic values and snake oil salesmen.

What's gone wrong? Why is this happening and where will it end?


You having a bad day?



:greengrin

[hibsbollah]

It’s because we’re being manipulated consistently with stuff on social media, we have politicians that completely lie - not even “could be true, at a stretch lies, but outright, demonstrably false lies, we have a complicit media that serves its owners so rather than hear about the £100m awarded to a new company without tender, we hear about Katie Price getting her chest increased/decreased/rented out for advertising/whatever.

We have social media that is targeted to give you information, factual or fictional, so regularly and so intensively that it becomes accepted wisdom, and because it does the same with people you respond to, they reinforce that thinking by backing it up/repeating it.

We have politicians who tell us “people are fed up of experts” so actual scientific evidence or facts are dismissed as “fake news” or irrelevant because Dave from Wrexham works beside someone from the NHS and knows what’s really going on.

Above all, we have more than a generation worth of voters who are completely unserved by and totally disengaged with the political system, so they don’t vote or campaign or hold anyone to account so the *******s get to do it again and again and again.

You have a situation where the so-called leader of the free world is a proven and habitual liar, and we have the same running our country.

Is a horrible situation, deeply disturbing and I’m at a complete loss as to how to get past out without folk rejecting the current system en mass and there being some sort of uprising, but that’s about as likely as me getting my nat king cole with whichever stunningly attractive actress is topical right now.

Good post :agree:

The Tories voted yesterday to strip an amendment to the Agriculture Bill which allows the UK to ignore existing food standards and animal welfare in future trade deals. This is specifically word for word what they said they wouldnt do in their manifesto. Opens the door for chlorinated chicken, hormone beef, all that stuff that they avoided scrutiny on at Brexit time by pointing to the manifesto and saying ‘look, Corbyns a liar, we won’t do it!’

The more interesting question is not why politicians lie, but why the public now seems happy to accept it.

[JimBHibees]

It’s because we’re being manipulated consistently with stuff on social media, we have politicians that completely lie - not even “could be true, at a stretch lies, but outright, demonstrably false lies, we have a complicit media that serves its owners so rather than hear about the £100m awarded to a new company without tender, we hear about Katie Price getting her chest increased/decreased/rented out for advertising/whatever.

We have social media that is targeted to give you information, factual or fictional, so regularly and so intensively that it becomes accepted wisdom, and because it does the same with people you respond to, they reinforce that thinking by backing it up/repeating it.

We have politicians who tell us “people are fed up of experts” so actual scientific evidence or facts are dismissed as “fake news” or irrelevant because Dave from Wrexham works beside someone from the NHS and knows what’s really going on.

Above all, we have more than a generation worth of voters who are completely unserved by and totally disengaged with the political system, so they don’t vote or campaign or hold anyone to account so the *******s get to do it again and again and again.

You have a situation where the so-called leader of the free world is a proven and habitual liar, and we have the same running our country.

Is a horrible situation, deeply disturbing and I’m at a complete loss as to how to get past out without folk rejecting the current system en mass and there being some sort of uprising, but that’s about as likely as me getting my nat king cole with whichever stunningly attractive actress is topical right now.

Great post depressingly true though you might get lucky with the actress. :greengrin

[Kato]

Good post :agree:

The Tories voted yesterday to strip an amendment to the Agriculture Bill which allows the UK to ignore existing food standards and animal welfare in future trade deals. This is specifically word for word what they said they wouldnt do in their manifesto. Opens the door for chlorinated chicken, hormone beef, all that stuff that they avoided scrutiny on at Brexit time by pointing to the manifesto and saying ‘look, Corbyns a liar, we won’t do it!’

The more interesting question is not why politicians lie, but why the public now seems happy to accept it.In the distant past the public would be ignorant of it.

In the 20th century there was a press "holding power to account" and would have made a huge fuss about it thus creating a fuss within the public.

This century your just some kind of lefty troublemaker if dare point out that there are lies being told.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[matty_f]

Good post :agree:

The Tories voted yesterday to strip an amendment to the Agriculture Bill which allows the UK to ignore existing food standards and animal welfare in future trade deals. This is specifically word for word what they said they wouldnt do in their manifesto. Opens the door for chlorinated chicken, hormone beef, all that stuff that they avoided scrutiny on at Brexit time by pointing to the manifesto and saying ‘look, Corbyns a liar, we won’t do it!’

The more interesting question is not why politicians lie, but why the public now seems happy to accept it.

The last line is because it's swept under the carpet by the media, or the people who care enough about it aren't sufficient in numbers to stop it.

If you think about the chlorinated chicken - who's going to be eating that? Low income families, predominantly, the very people who are disengaged and unserved by the politicians. These are people who are heavily influenced by media rhetoric so they see what celebrity has cheated on their wife as a bigger story than the scandal about their food hygene. And even if they did (and I am generalising here, I accept that there are many exceptions) they aren't compelled to vote because literally none of the parties represent them adequately.

It's a situation that's been created deliberately over many years, accelerated now with the power of social media, but it absolutely serves those in power to maintain it like this because they can virtually get away with anything now.

[Hibrandenburg]

It’s because we’re being manipulated consistently with stuff on social media, we have politicians that completely lie - not even “could be true, at a stretch lies, but outright, demonstrably false lies, we have a complicit media that serves its owners so rather than hear about the £100m awarded to a new company without tender, we hear about Katie Price getting her chest increased/decreased/rented out for advertising/whatever.

We have social media that is targeted to give you information, factual or fictional, so regularly and so intensively that it becomes accepted wisdom, and because it does the same with people you respond to, they reinforce that thinking by backing it up/repeating it.

We have politicians who tell us “people are fed up of experts” so actual scientific evidence or facts are dismissed as “fake news” or irrelevant because Dave from Wrexham works beside someone from the NHS and knows what’s really going on.

Above all, we have more than a generation worth of voters who are completely unserved by and totally disengaged with the political system, so they don’t vote or campaign or hold anyone to account so the *******s get to do it again and again and again.

You have a situation where the so-called leader of the free world is a proven and habitual liar, and we have the same running our country.

Is a horrible situation, deeply disturbing and I’m at a complete loss as to how to get past out without folk rejecting the current system en mass and there being some sort of uprising, but that’s about as likely as me getting my nat king cole with whichever stunningly attractive actress is topical right now.

Good post that mirrors much of my thoughts. I'm just tired of debating with people who ignore facts, it's mind numbingly infuriating and I've resorted to just walking away from them.

[matty_f]

In the distant past the public would be ignorant of it.

In the 20th century there was a press "holding power to account" and would have made a huge fuss about it thus creating a fuss within the public.

This century your just some kind of lefty troublemaker if dare point out that there are lies being told.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

This is also true - a lack of competent popular journalism doesn't help, but the portrayal of the left side of politics over the last however many years has been ridiculous.

Look how Labour's anti-Semitism issue virtually disappeared overnight when Corbyn was no longer considered a threat to things - so either the problem was nowhere near as bad as made out, or Labour have done an amazing job at clamping it as soon as he left.

When the baddies control the press, and the baddies can manipulate the tweets you see or the news you see on your phone, then it's very hard to get past that.

Especially when they can just make it up.

Look at the letter that was in the news the other day, presented as having been signed by however many thousand scientists and it turned out that was nonsense (ok, not completely nonsense, but a gross misrepresentation of the situation) however it was enough to give the anti-covid measures folk some 'credible' evidence to back their case.

[Hibrandenburg]

You having a bad day?



:greengrin

Ach, I've had worse.

[Keith_M]

Ach, I've had worse.


Radeberger Pilsner?

[Hibrandenburg]

Radeberger Pilsner?

Small crate of Krombacher 0% and a crate of Flensburger. Wife and boy at Heidepark and me and the mutt discussing the Post Woof Society.

[Keith_M]

Small crate of Krombacher 0% and a crate of Flensburger. Wife and boy at Heidepark and me and the mutt discussing the Post Woof Society.


Sounds like a fantastic day

:greengrin

[One Day Soon]

Good post that mirrors much of my thoughts. I'm just tired of debating with people who ignore facts, it's mind numbingly infuriating and I've resorted to just walking away from them.

Yes, I'm absolutely in that position too. It seems to apply to: the Brexit debate, national politics, the independence debate, culture wars, almost anything that is up for discussion on Twitter, casual conversations in which people mention things that make you think they are simply parroting their own preconceptions rather than being open to any form of discussion and even science itself.

I can't forget the point at which Trump's people started to talk about how they had 'alternative facts' when they were confronted with whatever the substance of an issue was on which he had either outright lied or had just been plain wrong. It may even have been as early as his inauguration and the dispute about the size of the crowd present. I doubt that was the turning point because I suspect that the willing ness to play fast and loose with facts and evidence will have been something that grew over time cancerously, but that was the point at which I remember thinking that it had crystalised and now it would be standard practice. When you see the most powerful man in the world speak utter cobblers publicly and there being no reaction in terms of his reputation or standing, that is the point where you also think culture wars, othering and 'them' versus 'us' has taken over and everything single thing is forced through that mincing machine.

I'm not a scientist or a mathematician but I have always held both disciplines in very high regard due to the time, effort, rigorous discipline and evidence base they are built upon. I always thought that western liberal democracy - for all its many faults - allowed for evidence based debate and decision making mostly to take place. Now it feels like internal and external bad actors are at work with malign agendas to distort and destroy our public discourse and our ability to come together, to poison our politics, to divide and conquer and that they have an all too willing audience of angry, scared, powerless, and often selfish people eating it all up and intensifying it all.

I too am spending more time with the dog.

[Hibrandenburg]

Yes, I'm absolutely in that position too. It seems to apply to: the Brexit debate, national politics, the independence debate, culture wars, almost anything that is up for discussion on Twitter, casual conversations in which people mention things that make you think they are simply parroting their own preconceptions rather than being open to any form of discussion and even science itself.

I can't forget the point at which Trump's people started to talk about how they had 'alternative facts' when they were confronted with whatever the substance of an issue was on which he had either outright lied or had just been plain wrong. It may even have been as early as his inauguration and the dispute about the size of the crowd present. I doubt that was the turning point because I suspect that the willing ness to play fast and loose with facts and evidence will have been something that grew over time cancerously, but that was the point at which I remember thinking that it had crystalised and now it would be standard practice. When you see the most powerful man in the world speak utter cobblers publicly and there being no reaction in terms of his reputation or standing, that is the point where you also think culture wars, othering and 'them' versus 'us' has taken over and everything single thing is forced through that mincing machine.

I'm not a scientist or a mathematician but I have always held both disciplines in very high regard due to the time, effort, rigorous discipline and evidence base they are built upon. I always thought that western liberal democracy - for all its many faults - allowed for evidence based debate and decision making mostly to take place. Now it feels like internal and external bad actors are at work with malign agendas to distort and destroy our public discourse and our ability to come together, to poison our politics, to divide and conquer and that they have an all too willing audience of angry, scared, powerless, and often selfish people eating it all up and intensifying it all.

I too am spending more time with the dog.

Great post and I can't really add anything other than I'd add ignorance to your list at the end. I mean ignorance in the sense of being ignorant of the facts. There's a whole army of people out there willing to swallow blatant lies because they are unwilling or unable to distinguish between fact and fiction and their whole decision making process is based on what they WANT to believe.

[Rocky]

I thought there was a rather splendid example of the effectiveness of the "post truth" approach on James O'Brien's show the other day when a guy called in to say that he hadn't realised that an "Australia style" Brexit deal means exactly the same thing as "No Deal". He also claimed that he'd been following Brexit closely. Unfortunately everyone lives in their own information silos so much that it matters not a jot that this particular deceit is so obvious, that simple fact just hadn't permeated his awareness through whichever media outlets he's consuming. The government can absolutely say whichever lies happen to be convenient at any point, it simply won't register with the majority.

[The_Exile]

Think we're just at a point where the majority of adults are as thick as pig**** to be perfectly honest, and they all think they're entitled to their moronic opinions. The sheer number of human beings who are scientifically illiterate and lack basic analysis and reasoning skills is honestly quite scary. It might just be that these ****wits shout the loudest and the rest of us are quite quiet but I'm not sure I believe that these days.

[Pretty Boy]

When we talk about a post truth society do we mean a society in which the truth no longer matters or one in which the truth is corrupted to control and coerce?

Humans as a species have never placed a huge amount of value in the absolute truth. Entire civilisations were built on the back of shared religious and spiritual beliefs that were impossible to prove as true. Currency is based on a belief that a worthless piece of paper has value in the eyes of someone else. Advertising has sold product for decades based on linking itself to ideals that don't exist. Consider even a game of football; for 90 minutes we suspend the belief that it is a game created by humans and we emotionally invest in it, we become part of a greater entity through a shared belief that it somehow defines a part of us. Civilisation was built on the ability of humans to know the truth but not know it at the same time, we are the ultimate post truth species.

Of course the truth still matters and to that end we arguably have greater access to the truth now than we have ever had. Science has debunked previously accepted Biblical literalism, political corruption has never been as visible, information about any subject can be ours in a matter of seconds. Yes people choose not to engage with that truth and yes distorted truth or outright dishonesty is used to control and coerce but that has been the case throughout human history.

I'd argue it's the case that because we recognise and rally against that we still live in a post truth society but we are more aware of it than we have ever been.

[Northernhibee]

A big crossroads in this country was Michael Gove’s “We’ve had quite enough of experts”.

It’s now easier for a politician to convince the most gullible and stupid in society (which austerity and cuts to education and training have exacerbated) than try and twist the words of an expert to win over the more informed

[Pretty Boy]

A big crossroads in this country was Michael Gove’s “We’ve had quite enough of experts”.

It’s now easier for a politician to convince the most gullible and stupid in society (which austerity and cuts to education and training have exacerbated) than try and twist the words of an expert to win over the more informed

It was a strange comment and almost certainly politically motivated but isn't there a grain of truth in it? To some extent we all disregard experts that don't suit our own world view.

Take the covid situation. Is someone like Hugh Pennington really less qualified than Jason Leitch when it comes to discussing the behaviour of a virus? The man is certainly an expert in his field but how many people would agree with his assessment that 'there is no second wave' and how many disregard his criticisms of the modelling used to gather data on the virus because it doesn't suit their political and personal viewpoint? Does that equate to having had quite enough of experts? Or is it OK to disagree with experts if you believe them to be inherently wrong?

[Northernhibee]

It was a strange comment and almost certainly politically motivated but isn't there a grain of truth in it? To some extent we all disregard experts that don't suit our own world view.

Take the covid situation. Is someone like Hugh Pennington really less qualified than Jason Leitch when it comes to discussing the behaviour of a virus? The man is certainly an expert in his field but how many people would agree with his assessment that 'there is no second wave' and how many disregard his criticisms of the modelling used to gather data on the virus because it doesn't suit their political and personal viewpoint? Does that equate to having had quite enough of experts? Or is it OK to disagree with experts if you believe them to be inherently wrong?

There may be some truth to it, but an elected politician using it as an argument to justify something that most experts agree is a really concerning statement in its context.

Elected officials are there to make difficult decisions without the emotion that we as members of the public attach to them. That’s not acknowledging that people don’t often like listening to experts, that’s weaponising that to push through decisions that are without doubt harmful to the country.

The only acceptable use of that phrase from an elected official is followed by “but we must do what is right even if that is initially unpopular” otherwise our democracy should just as well be hosted by Ant and Dec on ITV2.

[matty_f]

There may be some truth to it, but an elected politician using it as an argument to justify something that most experts agree is a really concerning statement in its context.

Elected officials are there to make difficult decisions without the emotion that we as members of the public attach to them. That’s not acknowledging that people don’t often like listening to experts, that’s weaponising that to push through decisions that are without doubt harmful to the country.

The only acceptable use of that phrase from an elected official is followed by “but we must do what is right even if that is initially unpopular” otherwise our democracy should just as well be hosted by Ant and Dec on ITV2.

:agree:

For me, the phrase post-truth ties in with what you’ve said here but more so on the fact that outright lies are now acceptable (the big red Brexit bus, for example) or Gove telling everyone Britain will get the deal we want, or Johnson telling us that a deal is oven ready only to then tell us no deal is what Britain wanted anyway.

It’s the publication of demonstrably false news articles to create a narrative or a movement for a particular cause (see Cambridge Analytica’s manipulation of Facebook).

And it is the dismissal of stuff that is demonstrably correct (Flat Earthers denying we live on a globe) but not just dismissing it, but actively trying to discredit the actual truth.

[brianmc]

Think we're just at a point where the majority of adults are as thick as pig**** to be perfectly honest, and they all think they're entitled to their moronic opinions. The sheer number of human beings who are scientifically illiterate and lack basic analysis and reasoning skills is honestly quite scary. It might just be that these ****wits shout the loudest and the rest of us are quite quiet but I'm not sure I believe that these days.

This is pretty much where I'm at.
The World will never run out of morons.

[Pretty Boy]

:agree:

For me, the phrase post-truth ties in with what you’ve said here but more so on the fact that outright lies are now acceptable (the big red Brexit bus, for example) or Gove telling everyone Britain will get the deal we want, or Johnson telling us that a deal is oven ready only to then tell us no deal is what Britain wanted anyway.

It’s the publication of demonstrably false news articles to create a narrative or a movement for a particular cause (see Cambridge Analytica’s manipulation of Facebook).

And it is the dismissal of stuff that is demonstrably correct (Flat Earthers denying we live on a globe) but not just dismissing it, but actively trying to discredit the actual truth.

The argument about the earth not being spherical is quite an interesting outlier.

It's an idea that is primarily supported by people under 35. A YouGov poll suggested in the 18-34 age group only 66% of people surveyed firmly committed to the belief that the earth was a globe. Yet the same demographic were demonstrably more likely than other age groups to accept the scientific consensus on an issue like global warming. More bizarrely only 2% of that age group would admit to believing the earth was flat. The conclusion was that many were simply ambivalent to the science around it. There was a 'don't know option and they used it.

Maybe we live in a society that is post caring rather than post truthful? Does it really matter if I believe the earth is round? (I do BTW). Likewise I'm not sure many people really believe it is OK for a politician to blatantly lie. I think it's more likely a lot of people just don't give a **** anymore. Apathy rather than a blatant disregard for the truth seems far more prevalent to me.

[Kato]

It was a strange comment and almost certainly politically motivated but isn't there a grain of truth in it? To some extent we all disregard experts that don't suit our own world view.

Take the covid situation. Is someone like Hugh Pennington really less qualified than Jason Leitch when it comes to discussing the behaviour of a virus? The man is certainly an expert in his field but how many people would agree with his assessment that 'there is no second wave' and how many disregard his criticisms of the modelling used to gather data on the virus because it doesn't suit their political and personal viewpoint? Does that equate to having had quite enough of experts? Or is it OK to disagree with experts if you believe them to be inherently wrong?

Listening to experts with varying opinions is different from disregarding them altogether.

[Northernhibee]

People will also quite often be happy to go with group consensus and that’s been the case for a long time. Social media through a combination of Russian bot factories for hire and algorithms only suggesting what they’ve watched so far makes it too easy to make it look as if everyone around someone has the same belief system as them and anyone else is a label.

You can see the bot factories trying to cook them up all the time - some are less successful (“leftwaffe” is one I seen a lot of from suspicious accounts) but some stick (“triggered”, “social justice warrior” or “virtue signaller”). I know I dragged a a topic way off course the other day by asking what someone meant by that but unchallenged it’s a term allowed to use in place of facts to finish an argument without the person using it being
fully aware of the meaning (or lack of) in the phrase. I’m guilty of it myself.

They are bot invented phrases to make a meme more important than an expert (look for the “TRIGGERED” meme appearing in social media - rather than ask why someone is so passionate about an issue they’ll post that meme instead).

Ask yourself how many times you’ve heard “but I don’t know anyone who voted for/against Brexit or Scottish Indy” but that’s what social media does. It’ll often be followed up with “yoons” or “remoaners” or “Brexitards” or the like. Divide and conquer through your computer screen.

[One Day Soon]

The argument about the earth not being spherical is quite an interesting outlier.

It's an idea that is primarily supported by people under 35. A YouGov poll suggested in the 18-34 age group only 66% of people surveyed firmly committed to the belief that the earth was a globe. Yet the same demographic were demonstrably more likely than other age groups to accept the scientific consensus on an issue like global warming. More bizarrely only 2% of that age group would admit to believing the earth was flat. The conclusion was that many were simply ambivalent to the science around it. There was a 'don't know option and they used it.

Maybe we live in a society that is post caring rather than post truthful? Does it really matter if I believe the earth is round? (I do BTW). Likewise I'm not sure many people really believe it is OK for a politician to blatantly lie. I think it's more likely a lot of people just don't give a **** anymore. Apathy rather than a blatant disregard for the truth seems far more prevalent to me.


Those figures on the earth being flat or round are alarming. These people get to vote.