Can the game in Scotland survive with no crowds till April 2021

[A Hi-Bee]

As the heading says we are moving into very difficult times for the future of the game we all love and perhaps even for the future of our own club as we know it. Perhaps we need to help even more, contribute what we can for as long as we can-Thoughts-discuss.

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[H18 SFR]

The game will survive until April 2021 - there is no way the game will not survive, no way.

[Onion]

If this goes through to April, there'll be huge pressure on Government to help out. It's a nonsense that folk can drink inside a pub but can't sit in the fresh air socially distanced at a football match.

Football in Scotland doesn't have the £ billions down south, so every reason for Government (UK and Scottish) to help the game survive up here - right down to gras roots level. In fact, there could be logic in imposing a special tax on English Premiership clubs to help fund the wider game across the UK.

[A Hi-Bee]

The game will survive until April 2021 - there is no way the game will not survive, no way.

When I say the game I really mean the teams that make up the game in Scotland, all the smaller clubs along with Highland & Lowland teams can they survive in the present form, Teams like hertz may survive due to benny-factor but what about the rest. I am not so sure that Scottish football can survive in its present form without supporters and some big money from government.
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[dalkeith stu]

If this goes through to April, there'll be huge pressure on Government to help out. It's a nonsense that folk can drink inside a pub but can't sit in the fresh air socially distanced at a football match.

Football in Scotland doesn't have the £ billions down south, so every reason for Government (UK and Scottish) to help the game survive up here - right down to gras roots level. In fact, there could be logic in imposing a special tax on English Premiership clubs to help fund the wider game across the UK.

Personally think playing with no fans just now is better for us than if we were to open up with only a couple of thousand there.
All the fans would be season ticket holders so the club would have extra match day overheads with no extra cash coming in!!
It'd be ok for clubs with smaller fan bases but Hibs will need crowds back to normal to make it work.

[H18 SFR]

When I say the game I really mean the teams that make up the game in Scotland, all the smaller clubs along with Highland & Lowland teams can they survive in the present form, Teams like hertz may survive due to benny-factor but what about the rest. I am not so sure that Scottish football can survive in its present form without supporters and some big money from government.
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The clubs will still be here come April, some may hibernate, some may be cash-strapped, some may even be New Companies, they will still be there though.

[A Hi-Bee]

The clubs will still be here come April, some may hibernate, some may be cash-strapped, some may even be New Companies, they will still be there though.

Time will tell I guess, I think some if not more than just some may go to the wall by Xmas time, hope I am completly wrong in this.
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[weecounty hibby]

Some of the smaller clubs will go out of business, including perhaps some in the top division. They will be replaced by others who are fortunate to be less weighed down by debt for example. Scottish football will survive but I think it will have very different clubs and maybe not even four divisions

[neil7908]

Hibs will be fine but I fear for clubs lower down the pyramid.

[DH1875]

Hibs will be fine but I fear for clubs lower down the pyramid.

Yip. Think hearts could be in serious do do.

[A Hi-Bee]

Some of the smaller clubs will go out of business, including perhaps some in the top division. They will be replaced by others who are fortunate to be less weighed down by debt for example. Scottish football will survive but I think it will have very different clubs and maybe not even four divisions

This I tend to agree with, we may be faced with a different set up, perhaps the uglies will finally get to **** moving to Engurland, amongst the big money. Leave the rest of us to get on with what we can once this is over.

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[FilipinoHibs]

I think the lower leagues will be moth balled for one but probably two seasons. We are not going to out of this pandemic until 2022. Top league will survive this season but will probably big redundancies for next season as season ticket sales fall as people become hit economically. There are going to be a lot of redundancies in the lower leagues. Government are racking up big debt on top the debt run as a result of the financial recession.Government will focus on saving key parts of the economy.

[WhileTheChief..]

I’m sticking with the view that all our clubs will still be here by the time we get back to something like ‘normal’.

Might not be any games for lower league clubs this season and I doubt we’ll see fans back at top flight games any time soon but I still don’t see any clubs going bust.

[Yorkshire HFC]

The clubs will still be here come April, some may hibernate, some may be cash-strapped, some may even be New Companies, they will still be there though.

For how long though? How much money does it take to run Hibs every month?

Where does that money come from without people going to watch the games?

Hibs have never seemed to have much money even with weekly big games, cup bonuses, tv money, millions of pounds earned in transfer fees etc.

Worrying times for football clubs.

[Skol]

This season will be fine. Tough, but we will get through it.

The problem is when it comes to next years season ticket renewals. Will we still get 13k people prepared to pay for a season ticket if we are still in the same situation. What if many of our normal paying punters find their income is reduced for a variety of reasons and have to prioritise.

There is a world of difference between the top level in england and other teams. No way will the EPL be bailed out when they are sheling out money on transfer fees and salaries

[Yorkshire HFC]

This season will be fine. Tough, but we will get through it.

The problem is when it comes to next years season ticket renewals. Will we still get 13k people prepared to pay for a season ticket if we are still in the same situation. What if many of our normal paying punters find their income is reduced for a variety of reasons and have to prioritise.

There is a world of difference between the top level in england and other teams. No way will the EPL be bailed out when they are sheling out money on transfer fees and salaries

Meanwhile, Wolves have just signed a right back for £37m.

As you say, a world of difference.

[wallmack]

Hibs will be fine but I fear for clubs lower down the pyramid.

Substantial cost cutting will be needed at all levels of Scottish football if no fans are in the grounds for the season

[H18 SFR]

For how long though? How much money does it take to run Hibs every month?

Where does that money come from without people going to watch the games?

Hibs have never seemed to have much money even with weekly big games, cup bonuses, tv money, millions of pounds earned in transfer fees etc.

Worrying times for football clubs.

April. That was the question I answered.

[bawheid]

Football in Scotland doesn't have the £ billions down south, so every reason for Government (UK and Scottish) to help the game survive up here - right down to gras roots level. In fact, there could be logic in imposing a special tax on English Premiership clubs to help fund the wider game across the UK.

Great point. Time for the UK government to show the “the broad shoulders” of “our precious Union” in action.

Chances? Zero!

[Scott Allan Key]

If this goes through to April, there'll be huge pressure on Government to help out. It's a nonsense that folk can drink inside a pub but can't sit in the fresh air socially distanced at a football match.

Football in Scotland doesn't have the £ billions down south, so every reason for Government (UK and Scottish) to help the game survive up here - right down to gras roots level. In fact, there could be logic in imposing a special tax on English Premiership clubs to help fund the wider game across the UK.I agree with your latter suggestion but it kind of goes against the spirit of 'help the rich and **** the poor' spirit of UK government.

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[Lago]

The game will survive until April 2021 - there is no way the game will not survive, no way.
But not as we currently know it, clubs will fail & some will have to go part time. Those expecting Government hand outs, don't hold your breath.

[superfurryhibby]

But not as we currently know it, clubs will fail & some will have to go part time. Those expecting Government hand outs, don't hold your breath.

Agreed. The Scottish Government will have more pressing needs to meet than bailing out football clubs.

[King Cosell]

At today's PMQs, Ben Bradley, Tory MP for Mansfield and Mansfield Town fan, asked about help for clubs. Pretty sure something will happen. What the UK government does, the Scottish government will match.

[Onceinawhile]

It's not even likely to be April. Brace yourselves for fans not being in allowed until August at the earliest. We're looking at no vaccine til next year, possibly mid next year, then it needs to be distributed and given. Fans won't be back until then imo.

[A Hi-Bee]

As it says it looks like the BBC have been trawling Hibs net and have picked up on my story/thread asking if we/the game can survive through to April next year wi no supporters getting into games.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/54264389


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[Iain G]

This could end up bringing on a forced rationalisation and change to Scottish football that a lot of people have been calling for over the years. Like we are finding out about a lot of businesses and organisations they are living hand to mouth and if there are no customers it just isn't viable.

Will be very sad to see but I expect clubs in Scotland and England to dissapear as professional clubs if the fans aren't allowed in this season.

[hibee-boys]

Will the people who committed to a season ticket for this season, knowing that they'd see limited games, be willing to stump up full pruce again next season? A big ask for many supporters, very worrying for the club. The financial stability of the club is obviously the key concern, if that means selling our main assets to balance the books then we'll just have to accept it.

[ancient hibee]

This could end up bringing on a forced rationalisation and change to Scottish football that a lot of people have been calling for over the years. Like we are finding out about a lot of businesses and organisations they are living hand to mouth and if there are no customers it just isn't viable.

Will be very sad to see but I expect clubs in Scotland and England to dissapear as professional clubs if the fans aren't allowed in this season.
Clubs in the lowest division up here have coped for years playing in front of crowds of 3/400 plus inputs of cash from various sources.They’re used to getting by on next to nothing and will continue to do so. It’s the clubs with ambition who will suffer.

[where'stheslope]

Will the people who committed to a season ticket for this season, knowing that they'd see limited games, be willing to stump up full pruce again next season? A big ask for many supporters, very worrying for the club. The financial stability of the club is obviously the key concern, if that means selling our main assets to balance the books then we'll just have to accept it.
The big negative in selling our assets, is that other clubs will be in the same predicament, so no money to buy them!!!
Only big money buyers are down South, and how many of our players are of that standard????

[Juniper Greens]

The big negative in selling our assets, is that other clubs will be in the same predicament, so no money to buy them!!!
Only big money buyers are down South, and how many of our players are of that standard????

I think most of us saw this season's ST as funds to keep the club going. Hopefully come next summer, things will be a little bit more normal and fans will be itching to get back. With this in mind, is there an argument that we could have record sales or do we think people will have gotten out of the habit of going?

[King Cosell]

Will the people who committed to a season ticket for this season, knowing that they'd see limited games, be willing to stump up full pruce again next season? A big ask for many supporters, very worrying for the club. The financial stability of the club is obviously the key concern, if that means selling our main assets to balance the books then we'll just have to accept it.

Accept it, my arse. The SPFL is worth more than £200 million a year to the Scottish economy and supports 5,700 jobs, according to the Fraser of Allander Institute. Fans of all clubs should be putting pressure on the Scottish government. They need our votes.

[jgl07]

Hibs will be fine but I fear for clubs lower down the pyramid.

I disagree. The clubs lower down the pyramid have next to no revenue from crowds anyway.

I know it's an extreme example but I once went to a match at Meadowbank with just over 200 others. Around a third of the crowd were vsiting support, and another third were brandishing complementary tickets. Take away the season ticket holders (25?) and I reckon less than 50 home supporters paid to get in.

Clubs would save all teh hassle of security and turnstyle operators so the loss in revenue would be minimal.

Hibs have slod lots of season tickets so they will only lose out on the away crowds, of which only a maximum of four matches against Sevco and Celtic would be significant, plus a few walk ups. You could say much the same about the OF and Aberdeen,

The big losers will be the smaller Premiership clubs and the full time Championship teams. At least the former have decent TV income

[hibbyfraelibby]

I actually think no Premiership sides are in danger thanks in part to the new SKY deal. Sure they'll be squeezed financially but the are all in a position to cut their cloth accordingly, even Livi and Accies.

I also believe the L1/2 sides with two notable exceptions, PT and Falkirk who have FT pretentions, can ride this out better than the Championship sides as the currently exist on heehaw crowds, SPFL money and "committee" funding.

You could mothball L1/2 for a season and they'd all survive.

The FT clubs outside the premiership on the other hand, including Hearts, are in a more perilous position. They might not be able to afford to play and if they mothballed they'd have to invoke a12 and off lay their entire playing staff.

I would expect that the Betfred might be the only games the lower leagues play before suspending the leagues and switching to summer football in 2021.

[Gordy M]

Maybe optomistic but i think there will be crowds back before then. I think there will be a vaccine by end of this year/ january and crowds will start to be allowed then. Just my opinion.

[DH1875]

Maybe optomistic but i think there will be crowds back before then. I think there will be a vaccine by end of this year/ january and crowds will start to be allowed then. Just my opinion.

Even if and it's a really BIG IF they find a vaccine in January, how long do you think it'll take for everyone in UK to get it? I'd suggest months.

[Gordy M]

Even if and it's a really BIG IF they find a vaccine in January, how long do you think it'll take for everyone in UK to get it? I'd suggest months.

It was Sir Patrick Vallance who suggested it during the address on Monday. It seems to have been glossed over since then.

Im not sure, ive no idea how things like that work, however id imagine it will be quicker than months? Why would it take so long?

[jacomo]

It was Sir Patrick Vallance who suggested it during the address on Monday. It seems to have been glossed over since then.

Im not sure, ive no idea how things like that work, however id imagine it will be quicker than months? Why would it take so long?


Because making 60m + doses of a new vaccine and administering it to the population is a big logistical challenge. In the hands of this UK government it will be a logistical nightmare.

[H18 SFR]

Because making 60m + doses of a new vaccine and administering it to the population is a big logistical challenge. In the hands of this UK government it will be a logistical nightmare.

I’m not convinced anything like 60,000,000 will take up the offer of is vaccine. Certainly in my work (a school), there are a hugely significant number of staff highlighting they won’t be interested.

[Since90+2]

I’m not convinced anything like 60,000,000 will take up the offer of is vaccine. Certainly in my work (a school), there are a hugely significant number of staff highlighting they won’t be interested.

The whole population won't be given the vaccine initially. Only those in groups that are at an increased risk of getting seriously ill or front line health workers will get it at first.

If you are under the age of 50 you are still extremely unlikely to get seriously ill so those folk would not be vaccinated until later on.

[hibee-boys]

Accept it, my arse. The SPFL is worth more than £200 million a year to the Scottish economy and supports 5,700 jobs, according to the Fraser of Allander Institute. Fans of all clubs should be putting pressure on the Scottish government. They need our votes.

Yes, accept the fact, like every other business, that football clubs need to balance the books so will be forced into making difficult decisions. The idea what the Scottish or UK government is going to throw money at football clubs to secure votes is nonsense. They'll be treated no different to any other business.

[The 90+2]

I know sky have the tv deal but it doesn’t help all the old firm away games are on Sky. If they weren’t the other clubs would get loads of subscribers for games and it sucks they get off paying yet the rest of us do. Every hun away game has been on tv. How’s that fair?

[hibee-boys]

The big negative in selling our assets, is that other clubs will be in the same predicament, so no money to buy them!!!
Only big money buyers are down South, and how many of our players are of that standard????

Porteous, Boyle and Doidge could be of interest to clubs down south with money to spend. Could see all 3 attracting bids over the next year. Don't want to see any of them go but if theres a good bid and it helps secure our financial position through this then that has to be the priority.

[lord bunberry]

I think championship clubs are most at risk, the bottom two leagues could probably just shut up shop for a season, but the championship clubs will find that much harder. I seriously doubt the leagues below the premiership will be completed.
For us a good league placing is more important that ever with the money that will go with it.

[ancient hibee]

I disagree. The clubs lower down the pyramid have next to no revenue from crowds anyway.

I know it's an extreme example but I once went to a match at Meadowbank with just over 200 others. Around a third of the crowd were vsiting support, and another third were brandishing complementary tickets. Take away the season ticket holders (25?) and I reckon less than 50 home supporters paid to get in.

Clubs would save all teh hassle of security and turnstyle operators so the loss in revenue would be minimal.

Hibs have slod lots of season tickets so they will only lose out on the away crowds, of which only a maximum of four matches against Sevco and Celtic would be significant, plus a few walk ups. You could say much the same about the OF and Aberdeen,

The big losers will be the smaller Premiership clubs and the full time Championship teams. At least the former have decent TV income
A lot of what you say is true but the loss of walk ups/always is quite significant.The published crowds last season were frequently in the 16/17000 range. This would bring in comfortably over a million quid in the season.

[CMurdoch]

I actually think no Premiership sides are in danger thanks in part to the new SKY deal. Sure they'll be squeezed financially but the are all in a position to cut their cloth accordingly, even Livi and Accies.

I also believe the L1/2 sides with two notable exceptions, PT and Falkirk who have FT pretentions, can ride this out better than the Championship sides as the currently exist on heehaw crowds, SPFL money and "committee" funding.

You could mothball L1/2 for a season and they'd all survive.

The FT clubs outside the premiership on the other hand, including Hearts, are in a more perilous position. They might not be able to afford to play and if they mothballed they'd have to invoke a12 and off lay their entire playing staff.

I would expect that the Betfred might be the only games the lower leagues play before suspending the leagues and switching to summer football in 2021.

Lots of good points made in this post. Saves me putting one together :wink:.
The Championship teams with the exception of Hearts are in real danger along with PT & Falkirk.
No TV money and possibly no games or gate money to pay for their full time squads.

[Paul1642]

I think most clubs will be fine. I feel sorry for the young players with ambitions to go full time, who will have their careers massively hit if the lower leagues mothball, and for the players who get cut when teams trim their squads big time.

[Sioux]

Having a few hundred fans through the gates will make no difference at all. If limited attendance was sanctioned, it would be restricted to ST holders and no meaningful increase in income for the clubs. Pay at the gate fans will be a long way off.

If we are faced with no paying fans for the next six months, the only way clubs can cut their losses is by reducing their employee costs. The government cannot step in to help clubs by simply handing over money to pay players' wages. At the top levels, the players are in a very privileged position compared to the vast majority of the population, who are going to be placed in a precarious position when furlough ends next month. The government couldn't possibly single out highly paid footballers for special treatment.

Some big decisions need to be made and the players, imo, are at the crux of it. Deferring wages is not a sustainable model. All that does is create debt, and debt needs to be repaid a year or two down the line. There won't be any increase in club income to repay that debt and continue with current levels of spending.

A lot of faith is on joe public to act in a manner that brings down the increasing level of infections, but getting back to levels we were at before the restrictions were lifted is not going to be easy.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Anyone remember I think they called it “zero gate accounting”?
Small clubs would use it iirc to ensure they diversified to ensure survival through the generation of additional revenue streams.

maybe in terms of developing a sustainable model, should be considered as one potential way of measuring the viability of a club.

the interesting thing is that down South there is still a reliance on Folis coming through the gates outside of the EPL I thought they had enough money sloshing around fro the TV deals worth billions to last them?