Extinction: The Facts (David Attenborough) plus other environmental concerns

[Antifa Hibs]

Scary watch but again top stuff from DA.

Not that i'm going to turn my back on it but it does make me wonder what the **** is the point in washing out and recycling my pint of milk n tin of beans when you see the scale of the billion dollar companies wrecking our lands and seas for profit.

I have started looking at my own environmental footprint but I guess there's still lots of improvements to make. I've cut down on my animal product and imported product use (meat, fish, dairy, coffee, fruits and veg not in season etc), try not to use the car for journeys under 1-2 mile. Trying to cycle more (top marks to Edinburgh council on the cycle lanes popping up). The biggest change and most beneficial to me is not to become a consumerist. Took a long time and probably lock down to make it happen but very liberating not just buying **** for the sake of it.

Next on the list... reducing imported and animal products further, reducing number of flights and probably a long way away due to range anxiety but an electric car...

[The_Exile]

I'm doing an environment science degree at the moment and some of the numbers, images and data from around the world is heartbreaking. We're so destructive, we know we are, but we just keep carrying on making tokenistic gestures. Some countries/humans are better than others.

It's all there on the screen and in the science for everybody to see, but when the TV show ends we all get in our cars the enxt day, we all put our heating on in the winter, we all chuck stuff in the bin that shouldn't be getting chucked in the bin and we all make the problem a little bit worse. People, as individuals, can make a small positive contribution, but it will take big changes from government to change the way we live in order for the Earth to be habitable as we know it for future generations. Too many "I'm alright Jack" types though, if it doesn't affect the 6 inches in front of their face then they just don't give a ****.

[makaveli1875]

The only thing that can save the world now is a mass extinction of the human race , the longer we are here the worse its going to get . Recyling milk bottles and driving a hybrid are not gong to make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things

[weecounty hibby]

We are the only species that the planet would be better off without. It makes me weep, genuinely, when you read of the extinction of animals and plants that are solely down to human intervention.
I am a total recycling nut and try to be as energy efficient as a family as possible. We can all do little bits that will help. Buying local produce is a good way of starting. Helps local farmers etc and cuts down on carbon emissions.
But the big change will need to come from government and it won't happen until those in charge of policy stop being paid by big industries. Sadly I feel that we will only truly start to make the changes necessary when it is all too late.

[Smartie]

The only thing that can save the world now is a mass extinction of the human race , the longer we are here the worse its going to get . Recyling milk bottles and driving a hybrid are not gong to make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things

They are though. If that's the best someone can do then that's the best they can do.

It might be insignificant next to some of the atrocities carried out elsewhere but it doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. The apathetic acceptance that there's little point in all of us playing our own little part is one the biggest problems we have.

Marginal gains and all that.

The waste culture that you see go on in America is heartbreaking, that's before you even get near Donald Trump and the climate change deniers. You have to have a certain amount of sympathy with the emerging economies, and their temptations and ours will be different.

Top marks to David Attenborough btw. He has made some really important programmes carrying some really important messages and they appear to have struck home massively with a public who we tend to think prefer the comfortable lie to the uncomfortable truth these days.

[superfurryhibby]

The only thing that can save the world now is a mass extinction of the human race , the longer we are here the worse its going to get . Recyling milk bottles and driving a hybrid are not gong to make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things.

During lockdown the air quality in Edinburgh improved enormously. I would take issue and say you're trivialising the difference we could make, if we got smart about it. Sadly our wider economy seems based on growth and consumption of resources.

As for mass extinction, Covid and no doubt the others that follow might help a bit.

[Sylar]

This thread's a bit too much like work for me, but Attenborough (while alarmist in his delivery) is spot on.

So long as governments and nations continue to put growth ahead of sustainability, we'll render this planet unliveable by the time the next century rolls around. The continued growth of the populous means increasing demand on land for food, water for everything and energy for comfort. That means more and more resources, more waste, more emissions (because some nations will not adhere to decarbonisation), more species eradication, greater loss of biodiversity (due to the above combined)...

It's hard to not feel nihilistic about the entire thing, and I try and cover more positive aspects when I speak to the students I lecture on this very topic, but it's hard...and every year it gets harder - I've just updated a couple of my lectures to include content on the wildfires in Australia and California this year, the record breaking temperatures all over the world again, the ridiculous hot temperatures in the Arctic during the summer and the resulting mass loss of sea ice and glacial areas...it's grim.

[hibsbollah]

This thread's a bit too much like work for me, but Attenborough (while alarmist in his delivery) is spot on.

So long as governments and nations continue to put growth ahead of sustainability, we'll render this planet unliveable by the time the next century rolls around. The continued growth of the populous means increasing demand on land for food, water for everything and energy for comfort. That means more and more resources, more waste, more emissions (because some nations will not adhere to decarbonisation), more species eradication, greater loss of biodiversity (due to the above combined)...

It's hard to not feel nihilistic about the entire thing, and I try and cover more positive aspects when I speak to the students I lecture on this very topic, but it's hard...and every year it gets harder - I've just updated a couple of my lectures to include content on the wildfires in Australia and California this year, the record breaking temperatures all over the world again, the ridiculous hot temperatures in the Arctic during the summer and the resulting mass loss of sea ice and glacial areas...it's grim.

Don’t worry, time to boldly go where man has never gone before. It’s time for....

Space Force!

[Jones28]

Follow that up with Planet of the Humans on YouTube and you’ll see how really ****ed we are.

[RyeSloan]

We are trashing the planet in an unbelievable way that’s for sure.

But I’m a bit of an optimist on this stuff and believe that the worm is slowly turning in terms of attitude and allocation of capital.

Some of the biggest companies in the world are having to face up to the fact that their shareholders and their customers expect them to do much much better.

There is a tsunami of money being put into all manner of ESG investments and those companies doing more than the rest are starting to see outsized returns...this is starting to turn into a virtuous cycle.

Absolutely it’s no where near fast enough or deep enough yet but then again on so many fronts I see technological advancements and sustainable developments that can drastically change the outlook.

Anything from the rise and rise of renewable energy (just today we saw GE pull out of the new build coal power market as an example of the above) to waste to energy to cultured meat to vertical farms to buildings that power themselves to electric cars to a million other advancements like LED lighting now even being used to cost effectively decontaminate water and environmentally friendly fertiliser...the list of the types of technologies developed or developing that will reduce or remove our environmental impact is staggering.

The there is the fact that a lot of economic growth is now virtual. Gone are the days when you had to make a physical product to generate wealth. Growth does not need to be powered by more and more physical consumption.

No single thing will save the planet (apart maybe a global amnesia on how to make plastic) and stopping then reversing the trend will take a huge effort but I’m somehow quite confident we will do so.

But it certainly can’t come soon enough though that’s for sure!

[camthebam]

We are trashing the planet in an unbelievable way that’s for sure.

But I’m a bit of an optimist on this stuff and believe that the worm is slowly turning in terms of attitude and allocation of capital.

Some of the biggest companies in the world are having to face up to the fact that their shareholders and their customers expect them to do much much better.

There is a tsunami of money being put into all manner of ESG investments and those companies doing more than the rest are starting to see outsized returns...this is starting to turn into a virtuous cycle.

Absolutely it’s no where near fast enough or deep enough yet but then again on so many fronts I see technological advancements and sustainable developments that can drastically change the outlook.

Anything from the rise and rise of renewable energy (just today we saw GE pull out of the new build coal power market as an example of the above) to waste to energy to cultured meat to vertical farms to buildings that power themselves to electric cars to a million other advancements like LED lighting now even being used to cost effectively decontaminate water and environmentally friendly fertiliser...the list of the types of technologies developed or developing that will reduce or remove our environmental impact is staggering.

The there is the fact that a lot of economic growth is now virtual. Gone are the days when you had to make a physical product to generate wealth. Growth does not need to be powered by more and more physical consumption.

No single thing will save the planet (apart maybe a global amnesia on how to make plastic) and stopping then reversing the trend will take a huge effort but I’m somehow quite confident we will do so.

But it certainly can’t come soon enough though that’s for sure!

i admire your optimism and hope you’re right.

Alas, I can’t share it.

Unless our consumption changes rapidly (we all know it isn’t going to) then we’re, at least according to 97% of climate scientists, ruined.

I can’t predict the future, no-one can, but the computer modelling doesn’t look good. It looks very worse than good.

If we really tried then maybe but we live in an unprecedented (shudder at that word) world of untruths, genuine fake news and utter stupidity.

I hold almost no hope for our species surviving the next 200yrs. We had our best times and our best men/women were genius. Our worst, well...

[RyeSloan]

i admire your optimism and hope you’re right.

Alas, I can’t share it.

Unless our consumption changes rapidly (we all know it isn’t going to) then we’re, at least according to 97% of climate scientists, ruined.

I can’t predict the future, no-one can, but the computer modelling doesn’t look good. It looks very worse than good.

If we really tried then maybe but we live in an unprecedented (shudder at that word) world of untruths, genuine fake news and utter stupidity.

I hold almost no hope for our species surviving the next 200yrs. We had our best times and our best men/women were genius. Our worst, well...

Sadly I can’t really argue with your viewpoint...it’s certainly valid and just (if not more so!) likely.

I do though try very hard to remove my world view from what the politicians say and do. I’m very much in the camp that the ‘real’ world gets on with it while they pretend they can influence and control.

For me the pace of human knowledge, understanding and technological change is getting ever greater at an ever faster rate. It’s within there that our salvation lies.

For example in your 200 year time scale I fully expect us to be able to control our climate, reversing the carbonisation of the atmosphere. We could probably do it now if we really really wanted to but on that time scale it will be ‘easy’.

Taking only my favourite topic of the moment, cellular agriculture, I can see huge advances which, according to some forecasts, will account for almost 40% of meat consumption in as little as 20 years. The environmental impact of such a change is gargantuan and simply isn’t in existing models.

A world that can feed itself without having to expend huge resources breeding, feeding, killing and transporting animals will be a significantly greener and more humane one.

There are hundreds of examples of these companies, some of them now on the cusp of commercialisation so that revolution is just about to start.

A couple of great examples are:

https://www.bluenalu.com

https://solarfoods.fi


There are many many more areas that technological advancement is significantly reducing environmental impact but this area in particular, when you look at the figure of about 70 billion animals a year bred for food and current estimates (not accounting for the above revolution) of a doubling of that by 2050, is one that particularly stands out for me.

[Smartie]

I know that it's only words, but was that announcement yesterday from China not pretty good news?

[RyeSloan]

Today another example of what I was wittering on about in my previous post:

https://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/mosa-meat-raises-series-b-funding-to-prepare-for-large-scale-cultured-meat-production-845145866.html


I believe their intention is to start with mince. And are looking to be doing so within the EU in as little as 2 years.

Their website is not exactly extensive but gives a quick understanding of the type of impact that this tech will have from an environmental perspective:

https://www.mosameat.com

“Our meat generates an estimated 96% less greenhouse gas emissions, uses 99% less land and 96% less water than livestock meat”

Now if that’s not planet saving stats I dunno what is!

[camthebam]

I hope you’re right RyeSloan and you may well be. I also read what China said Smartie and I hope they mean that. Forgive me but I’m sceptical, I doubt the central tenet of their belt and braces initiative is anything than other than cementing their place in the world hierarchy. But obviously I don’t know, I’m just a semi-alcoholic half-wit chewing my knuckles in the north of Scotland as I look at what I can see of the world.

It’s hard to predict the future knowing the known unkowns, never mind the unknown unknowns.

i believe hugely in science and, haven’t not clicked on you links yet Rye, know these things are possible. I also, hugely, believe most humans are decent people tending towards kindness rather than cruelty. But I also hugely think the Kunning-Druger effect is the defining psychology that will define our species.

Honestly, who knows? I wary of fools exactly predicting the future because they’re, well, fools.

It’s going to be an interesting few years.

[lapsedhibee]

I hope you’re right RyeSloan and you may well be. I also read what China said Smartie and I hope they mean that. Forgive me but I’m sceptical, I doubt the central tenet of their belt and braces initiative is anything than other than cementing their place in the world hierarchy. But obviously I don’t know, I’m just a semi-alcoholic half-wit chewing my knuckles in the north of Scotland as I look at what I can see of the world.

It’s hard to predict the future knowing the known unkowns, never mind the unknown unknowns.

i believe hugely in science and, haven’t not clicked on you links yet Rye, know these things are possible. I also, hugely, believe most humans are decent people tending towards kindness rather than cruelty. But I also hugely think the Kunning-Druger effect is the defining psychology that will define our species.

Honestly, who knows? I wary of fools exactly predicting the future because they’re, well, fools.

It’s going to be an interesting few years.
A known known is that too much sauce on a Saturday night causes spoonerism.:wink:

[RyeSloan]

Stolen from the Dug Out but the Netflix Doc Kiss the Ground is an excellent example of how we already have the knowledge and know how to start reversing some of the damage humans have caused.

It’s interesting in a number of ways but the two that stood out was how technology had actually been deployed in the wrong way...the arial shot of the feed pens used to raise livestock was quite shocking. As were the chemical induced wastelands that are used to grow the feedstock for the self same feed pens.

The second was just how ‘easy’ the solution was...0.4% increase per year in regenerative land use would negate the whole of the additional carbon produced by humans in that year...do that for 20 years and you can start to cool the planet again. Or so it was suggested, even if those figures are a bit ambitious it shows the scale of the impact that could be achieved.

To me it’s clear we have the knowledge and a growing ability to deploy that effectively. To do so though there needs to be a reversal of the many perverse incentives that have been put in place over a long time and starting with the largest ones in agriculture would seem to be as good a place as any to start.

[lord bunberry]

Let’s all be realistic about this, we in the West can do all we want, but the developing countries aren’t going to follow suit. We have to accept that global warming is going to cause chaos and leave the world in a very different place than it is now. It won’t mean the end of humanity and it won’t wipe humanity from the planet. The wealthy countries will adapt and deal with the consequences while other countries will struggle. This planet wasn’t made for us and it won’t care when we go away, the only ones that will care about that is us, but we have the unique ability to do something about it, we can shape our destiny. No other species have worried about their effect on this planet and I would suggest that we shouldn’t either. We’re here now, but we might not be here next week. Eveloution is a wonderful thing and it shows that our place is just as precarious as the dinosaurs, and the planet moved on when they went extinct.

[Pagan Hibernia]

Let’s all be realistic about this, we in the West can do all we want, but the developing countries aren’t going to follow suit. We have to accept that global warming is going to cause chaos and leave the world in a very different place than it is now. It won’t mean the end of humanity and it won’t wipe humanity from the planet. The wealthy countries will adapt and deal with the consequences while other countries will struggle. This planet wasn’t made for us and it won’t care when we go away, the only ones that will care about that is us, but we have the unique ability to do something about it, we can shape our destiny. No other species have worried about their effect on this planet and I would suggest that we shouldn’t either. We’re here now, but we might not be here next week. Eveloution is a wonderful thing and it shows that our place is just as precarious as the dinosaurs, and the planet moved on when they went extinct.

hmm, not sure I would concur that we shouldn’t worry about our effect on the planet. While it’s true that no other species does, it’s probably also true that no other species has exploited and damaged the earth as much as us. What’s more, the fact that we have the ability to understand and reflect on the damage we’re doing (in contrast to other species) gives us more responsibility to do something about it rather than just ignoring the obvious and continuing on our present path. In my opinion.

[Moulin Yarns]

Let’s all be realistic about this, we in the West can do all we want, but the developing countries aren’t going to follow suit. We have to accept that global warming is going to cause chaos and leave the world in a very different place than it is now. It won’t mean the end of humanity and it won’t wipe humanity from the planet. The wealthy countries will adapt and deal with the consequences while other countries will struggle. This planet wasn’t made for us and it won’t care when we go away, the only ones that will care about that is us, but we have the unique ability to do something about it, we can shape our destiny. No other species have worried about their effect on this planet and I would suggest that we shouldn’t either. We’re here now, but we might not be here next week. Eveloution is a wonderful thing and it shows that our place is just as precarious as the dinosaurs, and the planet moved on when they went extinct.

I must have been mistaken about china announcing major targets for climate change.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54256826

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-54347878

Which is a good point to add my thoughts which I raised first on the Scottish Independence thread.


Scotland could be a leader in reducing emmissions, but this could be a world changer if everything is thought of in combination.

Reducing emmissions at a domestic scale should be eveyone's priority, I live in a 200 year old stone building that is difficult to heat, but there are ways to do it.

Retrofitting insulation is easy and there are grants, reduce energy use and you reduce emmission. Same goes for solar panels, domestic scale wind turbines, air source heat pumps and possibly ground source heat pumps. All could be used in existing buildings, but should be a precondition in new buildings.

There are areas of Scotland which wind turbines will not be allowed https://www.nature.scot/sites/default/files/2018-02/Wild%20land%202014%20-%20Phase%203%20-%20SG%20advice%20-%20Map%201%20-%20Wild%20land%20areas%202014.pdf

But here is where I think innovation is needed, generate electricity where it is most needed, in the central belt of Scotland. Imagine using the motorway network to generate electricity, land that is otherwise wasted could be occupied by vertical wind turbines every few hundred metres. like these https://www.quietrevolution.com/ Even passing traffic will help in calmer days.

Same with solar panels, every public building ahould have solar PV panels, every new house should also have solar panels, imagine how low domestic energy bills would be as well as the reduction in emmissions.

Hydro power has been used since the medieval age in water mills, but we all think of hydro electric as big concrete dams for water storage and the destruction of glens. But most modern hydro schemes are 'run of river' where water is piped from upstream and returned to the watercourse after going through a turbine house generating electricity as a result of no loss of water. Now, where is there most water in populated areas? in the water pipes serving properties. Think of the electricity that could be generated at every water plant. Edinburgh takes it's water supply from the pentland hills, and the treatment plant at Glencorse has a capacity of 175 million litres of water a day. Imagine the energy that is wasted that could be generating electricity if turbines were installed?

OK, that is just a snapshot of what I think is possible in Scotland for heating and generation but there are probably more ideas out there.

[lord bunberry]

hmm, not sure I would concur that we shouldn’t worry about our effect on the planet. While it’s true that no other species does, it’s probably also true that no other species has exploited and damaged the earth as much as us. What’s more, the fact that we have the ability to understand and reflect on the damage we’re doing (in contrast to other species) gives us more responsibility to do something about it rather than just ignoring the obvious and continuing on our present path. In my opinion.
Yes you’re correct, my post was incredibly badly worded. I just don’t have the confidence that we will halt global warming and that leaves us dealing with the consequences. We can’t leave dealing with the fall out before it’s too late. I also agree that no other species has damaged the earth more than us, we are parasites that have made an absolute mess of the riches we inherited. Our planet is a paradise that should be enjoyed by us all, but we’ve gone with a system that rewards greed and those not in the top 1% have to struggle. What a ****in mess :rolleyes:

[sleeping giant]

Follow that up with Planet of the Humans on YouTube and you’ll see how really ****ed we are.

Just went to watch that and noticed all the debunking videos
In relation to it.

[RyeSloan]

Saw this today...just the very start of a global revolution in food production

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55155741

[Peevemor]

Saw this today...just the very start of a global revolution in food production

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55155741These things scare me. I have a vision of this stuff entering our blood stream and we all start sprouting feathers and laying eggs (that might be viewed as a plus).

[One Day Soon]

The only thing that can save the world now is a mass extinction of the human race , the longer we are here the worse its going to get . Recyling milk bottles and driving a hybrid are not gong to make a huge difference in the grand scheme of things


The world will be just fine no matter what we do unless we have a massive nuclear exchange. It will carry on, adapting and evolving.

What won't be fine is us. Generations to come are going to have a really bad time - especially the poorer areas of the world - unless we sort this **** out fast. That takes countries not just consumers.

[RyeSloan]

These things scare me. I have a vision of this stuff entering our blood stream and we all start sprouting feathers and laying eggs (that might be viewed as a plus).

It’s just chicken!! I think if eating chicken made that happen to us we would have found out by now. [emoji23]

That’s the beauty of these techniques, they result in 100% genetically the same result.

And considering modern farming methods also come without any added pharmaceuticals, pesticides or environmental factors.

Shiok meats, also in Singapore, are developing shrimp, crab and lobster...All without a single trawler leaving port. BlueNalu are doing yellowtail, red snapper and tuna.

Imagine a world where the oceans are left alone yet we have effectively endless supplies of seafood. Well that came a step closer to reality today.

I think Mr Attenborough would approve of that!

[allmodcons]

It’s just chicken!! I think if eating chicken made that happen to us we would have found out by now. [emoji23]

That’s the beauty of these techniques, they result in 100% genetically the same result.

And considering modern farming methods also come without any added pharmaceuticals, pesticides or environmental factors.

Shiok meats, also in Singapore, are developing shrimp, crab and lobster...All without a single trawler leaving port. BlueNalu are doing yellowtail, red snapper and tuna.

Imagine a world where the oceans are left alone yet we have effectively endless supplies of seafood. Well that came a step closer to reality today.

I think Mr Attenborough would approve of that!

You are 100% correct, really positive news, and your comments around farming methods and our oceans could be massive game changers.

[Moulin Yarns]

These things scare me. I have a vision of this stuff entering our blood stream and we all start sprouting feathers and laying eggs (that might be viewed as a plus).

Well, the first birds did survive the dinosaur extinction :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

It’s just chicken!! I think if eating chicken made that happen to us we would have found out by now. [emoji23]

That’s the beauty of these techniques, they result in 100% genetically the same result.

And considering modern farming methods also come without any added pharmaceuticals, pesticides or environmental factors.

Shiok meats, also in Singapore, are developing shrimp, crab and lobster...All without a single trawler leaving port. BlueNalu are doing yellowtail, red snapper and tuna.

Imagine a world where the oceans are left alone yet we have effectively endless supplies of seafood. Well that came a step closer to reality today.

I think Mr Attenborough would approve of that!

I wonder how many Dolly the sheep are grazing the fields round Penicuik way? :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

Meanwhile, the bad news.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-55150910


Having said that, there's snow on the ground today

[Moulin Yarns]

With Glasgow due to host the COP-26 conference, a bit of music has been written to highlight climate change.

It really gets my feet tapping towards the end.

http://oimusica.co.uk/cop26/