Serial killers

[Hibernia&Alba]

I've recently read several books about serial murderers, namely Peter Sutcliffe, Dennis Nilsen, Ted Bundy, Robert Black, Peter Tobin, Dennis Rader (BTK), Gary Ridgeway, John Wayne Gacy. I didn't read them in order to savour lurid descriptions of how they killed their victims, rather it's the psychology of the serial killer I find fascinating. I've never studied psychology, but such people who exist on the extremes of human behaviour are very interesting to me. Most serial killers are psychopathic not psychotic i.e. they are not delusional, for that would likely mean quick capture, but, rather, can compartmentalise their lives, so are seemingly outwardly normal whilst undertaking a killing spree. It is this normality which allows them to escape suspicion over time. What they completely lack is the ability to empathise with others or feel remorse for their actions. So how can someone go to work everyday, acting normally, whilst committing murder at night, perhaps for years? How can someone who kills multiple strangers for the thrill be considered sane? It seems paradoxical.

Of course not all psychopaths are murderers. Studies have demonstrated that psychopathy is overrepresented amongst those at the top of their profession e.g. politics and business, but those psychopaths who do go on to become destructive usually have a trigger in their background which is key i.e. it is the combination of nature (a psychopathic predisposition) and nurture (a trauma) which unleashes the worst.

I find these case studies intriguing.

[Colr]

I went to view a flat at 23 Cranley Gardens (Dennis Nilsen’s home) when I was house hunting.

I have to say, it was on for a VERY low price indeed!

After some debate with Mrs Colr, we declined to offer on the property!

[Billy Whizz]

I watch all these programmes, and when I have time read the books
there’s a programme on Neilson, called Des, on tomorrow night at 9pm with David Tennant playing him

Based on a book from Brian Masters, which you may have read

[Hibbyradge]

There's a fascinating book called the Jigsaw Man by Paul Britton who the TV character Cracker was based on.

He was involved in several high profile murders including the Bulger case and I found it very difficult to put down.

You'll get a copy on eBay for£4 or £5. Highly recommended.

[Billy Whizz]

There's a fascinating book called the Jigsaw Man by Paul Britton who the TV character Cracker was based on.

He was involved in several high profile murders including the Bulger case and I found it very difficult to put down.

You'll get a copy on eBay for£4 or £5. Highly recommended.

I couldn’t read anything about child killlers, just too disturbing for me

[Hibbyradge]

I couldn’t read anything about child killlers, just too disturbing for me

It's just one of many cases he discusses and it's not at all gruesome or sensational.

[Itsnoteasy]

I couldn’t read anything about child killlers, just too disturbing for me

But your fine reading about all other murders.

[Billy Whizz]

But your fine reading about all other murders.

Think that’s a wee bit uncalled for

[H18 SFR]

It’s animal cruelty that does it for me. There is a local guy serving time for a raft of incidents. He stayed a couple of streets over, if he returns there when released I am going to be seeing him.

[Just_Jimmy]

There's a fascinating book called the Jigsaw Man by Paul Britton who the TV character Cracker was based on.

He was involved in several high profile murders including the Bulger case and I found it very difficult to put down.

You'll get a copy on eBay for£4 or £5. Highly recommended.there's another of his called picking up the pieces.

both excellent.

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[The Modfather]

I've recently read several books about serial murderers, namely Peter Sutcliffe, Dennis Nilsen, Ted Bundy, Robert Black, Peter Tobin, Dennis Rader (BTK), Gary Ridgeway, John Wayne Gacy. I didn't read them in order to savour lurid descriptions of how they killed their victims, rather it's the psychology of the serial killer I find fascinating. I've never studied psychology, but such people who exist on the extremes of human behaviour are very interesting to me. Most serial killers are psychopathic not psychotic i.e. they are not delusional, for that would likely mean quick capture, but, rather, can compartmentalise their lives, so are seemingly outwardly normal whilst undertaking a killing spree. It is this normality which allows them to escape suspicion over time. What they completely lack is the ability to empathise with others or feel remorse for their actions. So how can someone go to work everyday, acting normally, whilst committing murder at night, perhaps for years? How can someone who kills multiple strangers for the thrill be considered sane? It seems paradoxical.

Of course not all psychopaths are murderers. Studies have demonstrated that psychopathy is overrepresented amongst those at the top of their profession e.g. politics and business, but those psychopaths who do go on to become destructive usually have a trigger in their background which is key i.e. it is the combination of nature (a psychopathic predisposition) and nurture (a trauma) which unleashes the worst.

I find these case studies intriguing.

There was an interesting interview with Richard” The Iceman” Kuklinski where a psychological analyst/profiler (or whatever the correct term is) interviewed Kuklinski and gave his opinion on why he turned out as he did and did the things he did.

https://youtu.be/0eX9tIUMb8c

[Hibernia&Alba]

I watch all these programmes, and when I have time read the books
there’s a programme on Neilson, called Des, on tomorrow night at 9pm with David Tennant playing him

Based on a book from Brian Masters, which you may have read

Yes, I read the Masters book, and I can see why it's regarded as amongst the best in the genre. He had unique access to Nilsen for a number of years, which gave him a level of insight not available to other writers. It's an excellent study of the psychology of a serial killer. Nilsen obviously had a psychopathic personality; his trauma occurred in childhood, when his grandfather (the only person he loved) died suddenly. Nilsen was taken to see the body, without any warning his grandfather was dead, which seems to have a planted a seed in his young mind that love and death are synonymous. As he grew up it was a downward slope into deviant behaviour, with a warped sexualisation of death.

The Masters book is excellent, though I found the descriptions of the way Nilsen dismembered his victims difficult. I'm going to watch the Tennant drama.

[pollution]

I don't mind cornflakes, really.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

Some interesting podcasts on Those Conspiracy Guys about killers. Chikatilo one is really interesting. James Bulger case is a tough listen

[The 90+2]

But your fine reading about all other murders.

There’s always one 🤣

[stu in nottingham]

The serial killer with the highest known victim count was, I believe, Harold Shipman who lived about half a mile from here. He had 218 proven murders and possibly up around 250 in total. I recall when his story came to light, I was friendly with a local doctor, a highly qualified Oncologist. When I ventured that there might be 'as many as 20 cases' she scoffed!

Generally,we're looking at psychopathy and paranoid schizophrenia here. I worked in research in the area of forensic psychology for a while and it could be very dark. I was actually offered a job at one of the UK's three High-Security hospitals, Rampton but really didn't fancy it.

Many who have committed heinous crimes attempt to have themselves transferred to Rampton, Broadmoor or Ashford. They see it as an easier life. I paychiatrist I worked with had the unpopular opinon that all people who committ such crimes should at first go to prison before potentially qualifying to go to a high-security hospital.

The system is that a person can potentially move through high, down to middle then low-security. It's riddled with problems though and many patients complain bitterly that their case is not considered or given a hearing. Sometimes this is because the system is creaking at the seams.

Even high-security patients such as Rampton's Beverly Allit, Ian Huntley and Charles Salvador (formerly Bronson) are administered psychology in the hope and belief that they can be cured and move down the system. In reality they will never leave these institutions.

The Dutch have another system that they feel has been trialled successfully. The same type of patients can opt out of the psychology and just life their life in high-security establishment that give them a higher quality of life with individual accommodation and more. To opt for this means an acceptance that you will never walk free. Others will argue that this is 'giving up' on those patients.

[Kato]

The serial killer with the highest known victim count was, I believe, Harold Shipman who lived about half a mile from here. He had 218 proven murders and possibly up around 250 in total. I recall when his story came to light, I was friendly with a local doctor, a highly qualified Oncologist. When I ventured that there might be 'as many as 20 cases' she scoffed!

Generally,we're looking at psychopathy and paranoid schizophrenia here. I worked in research in the area of forensic psychology for a while and it could be very dark. I was actually offered a job at one of the UK's three High-Security hospitals, Rampton but really didn't fancy it.

Many who have committed heinous crimes attempt to have themselves transferred to Rampton, Broadmoor or Ashford. They see it as an easier life. I paychiatrist I worked with had the unpopular opinon that all people who committ such crimes should at first go to prison before potentially qualifying to go to a high-security hospital.

The system is that a person can potentially move through high, down to middle then low-security. It's riddled with problems though and many patients complain bitterly that their case is not considered or given a hearing. Sometimes this is because the system is creaking at the seams.

Even high-security patients such as Rampton's Beverly Allit, Ian Huntley and Charles Salvador (formerly Bronson) are administered psychology in the hope and belief that they can be cured and move down the system. In reality they will never leave these institutions.

The Dutch have another system that they feel has been trialled successfully. The same type of patients can opt out of the psychology and just life their life in high-security establishment that give them a higher quality of life with individual accommodation and more. To opt for this means an acceptance that you will never walk free. Others will argue that this is 'giving up' on those patients.Can psychopathy be cured?

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[Hibernia&Alba]

Can psychopathy be cured?

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No, it isn't a mental illness that can be medicated; it's a personality disorder. A psychopath can't be taught empathy or guilt, they simply can't experience them. The best psychologists can hope for is that a psychopath might become a functioning psychopath (of the politician/business leader ilk) rather than a destructive one. However, it's incredibly difficult, perhaps impossible in the case of psychopathic killers. Those who have the nature and nurture combination ingredients to become destructive psychopaths are an enormous risk to society. Thankfully, it's rare, but they are incorrigible.

[stu in nottingham]

Can psychopathy be cured?

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As H&A says and for the reasons stated, no. The aim is to decrease the psychopathy and to manage it. Even the most extreme cases will be treated with, in theory, rehabilitation the target. In practice there is an understading that this will likely not happen. That's my understanding. The Dutch system quoted takes an arguably more realistic stance but others question it morally.

[Kato]

Yeah, didn't think so. It's just what they are. Handy people to have around in war time, liabilities in peace.

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[stu in nottingham]

Yeah, didn't think so. It's just what they are. Handy people to have around in war time, liabilities in peace.

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I wouldn't want one as my commanding officer. :greengrin

[Killiehibbie]

Pee Wee Gaskins is the one I found most disturbing. He didn't even know his first name was Donald until it was read out in court, he committed serious murders and others just for the fun of it. All 5 foot 3 and 9st of him was evil.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

Pee Wee Gaskins is the one I found most disturbing. He didn't even know his first name was Donald until it was read out in court, he committed serious murders and others just for the fun of it. All 5 foot 3 and 9st of him was evil.

This pee-wee? https://m.facebook.com/jarrett.ballard.54/posts/pcb.10219383872368572/?photo_id=10219383871328546&mds=%2Fphotos%2Fviewer%2F%3Fphotoset_token%3Dpcb.1 0219383872368572%26photo%3D10219383871328546%26pro fileid%3D1127259498%26source%3D48%26__tn__%3DEH-R%26cached_data%3Dtrue%26ftid%3D&mdp=1&mdf=1

[Sylar]

Always been something that fascinates me too. The Kuklinski videos are absolutely chilling, though i often don’t consider him in the same breath as a Bundy, Berkowitz, Sutcliffe etc (the mafia connection changes the motivation).

I do often wonder what a law enforcement individual would think of my reading patterns, as I’ve frequently ended up down internet rabbit holes reading about some of these guys.

If people don’t learn the etiquette of social distancing, I may well be named amongst them soon...

[Mon Dieu4]

Kuklinski's stories albeit bad have to be taken with a pinch of salt, although he carried out heinous crimes he also admitted to a tonne of things that were absolute bull****

Surprised Dahmer hasn't been mentioned yet, he was pretty much in a league of his own with the stuff he got up to, he even managed to convince the Police that a naked man who escaped from him that it was his boyfriend and the police handed him back to Dahmer who at the time had another dead body in his house, he also liked experimenting with acid, cannibalism, necrophelia, keeping body parts in his fridge etc, he was also declared legally sane

[Future17]

Kuklinski's stories albeit bad have to be taken with a pinch of salt, although he carried out heinous crimes he also admitted to a tonne of things that were absolute bull****

Surprised Dahmer hasn't been mentioned yet, he was pretty much in a league of his own with the stuff he got up to, he even managed to convince the Police that a naked man who escaped from him that it was his boyfriend and the police handed him back to Dahmer who at the time had another dead body in his house, he also liked experimenting with acid, cannibalism, necrophelia, keeping body parts in his fridge etc, he was also declared legally sane

The suspicion being that the police officers incompetence/negligence was due, in part, to racism. Now where have we heard that before?

:hijack:

[Beefster]

I’m another who reads a lot of serial killer books. Four less-known ones that always stick in my mind are Robert Berdella, Israel Keyes and Leonard Lake / Charles Ng. It’s always the guys who murder for kicks rather than because they’re completely disturbed that get to me more.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Kuklinski's stories albeit bad have to be taken with a pinch of salt, although he carried out heinous crimes he also admitted to a tonne of things that were absolute bull****

Surprised Dahmer hasn't been mentioned yet, he was pretty much in a league of his own with the stuff he got up to, he even managed to convince the Police that a naked man who escaped from him that it was his boyfriend and the police handed him back to Dahmer who at the time had another dead body in his house, he also liked experimenting with acid, cannibalism, necrophelia, keeping body parts in his fridge etc, he was also declared legally sane

Great shout, he was similar to Nilsen in associating love and death, thus keeping corpses with him and later dismembering them. Both Dahmer and Nilsen had a human head in a pan on the cooker when captured. It sounds too far fetched to be true, but truth can be stranger than fiction. Dahmer took his behaviour even further than Nilsen, if such a thing is possible. I must get around to a Dahmer book.

As for his sanity, it seems bizarre that someone who commits such abominable acts can be considered sane, but a personality disorder is not insanity. He wasn't psychotic (hearing voices or having visions) nor was he having paranoid delusions. Outwardly he could seem completely normal and rational, which is often the case with serial killers and why they can go years before capture. Dahmer, consistent with having a personality disorder, knew what he was doing was wrong in the eyes of society, but his deviant urges would become irresistible and he was unable to empathise with his victims.

[stu in nottingham]

Peter Bryan the 'Cannibal Killer' a paranoid schizophreniac was first in trouble in the 1990s with the law for trying to push a fellow resident out of a sixth-floor window where he stayed. He was later to spend eight years in Rampton for killing a young shopworker - the daughter of the owner of the shop from where he had been sacked for stealing. He beat her to death with a hammer in front of her brother.

He was considered to have have made 'progress' and transferred to an establishment that was a government experiment at the time. He was later released into the care of a psychiatrist and a social worker. After a MH tribunal,he was released into intoa hostel where he could come and go as he wished. His social worker reported that there were no major risks associated and applied for low-support accommodation for him. Instead, he was transferred to a low-secure psychiatric ward after an alleged sexual assault on a 16 year-old girl.

A month later he walked out of his MH unit and killed a friend, Brian Cherry. neighbours heard screams and a voilent scene and the police were called. What they found was Cherry lying on the floor of the flat with both arms and one leg severed from his body. There was a frying pan on the cooker with his victim's brains in it. He was frying them in butter and cliamed they 'tasted nice'.

Believe that after that he went to Broadmoor where he killed a fellow patient. He said that he wanted to 'capture the souls' of his victims and that if the police had not got to him he would have killed far more.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Peter Bryan the 'Cannibal Killer' a paranoid schizophreniac was first in trouble in the 1990s with the law for trying to push a fellow resident out of a sixth-floor window where he stayed. He was later to spend eight years in Rampton for killing a young shopworker - the daughter of the owner of the shop from where he had been sacked for stealing. He beat her to death with a hammer in front of her brother.

He was considered to have have made 'progress' and transferred to an establishment that was a government experiment at the time. He was later released into the care of a psychiatrist and a social worker. After a MH tribunal,he was released into intoa hostel where he could come and go as he wished. His social worker reported that there were no major risks associated and applied for low-support accommodation for him. Instead, he was transferred to a low-secure psychiatric ward after an alleged sexual assault on a 16 year-old girl.

A month later he walked out of his MH unit and killed a friend, Brian Cherry. neighbours heard screams and a voilent scene and the police were called. What they found was Cherry lying on the floor of the flat with both arms and one leg severed from his body. There was a frying pan on the cooker with his victim's brains in it. He was frying them in butter and cliamed they 'tasted nice'.

Believe that after that he went to Broadmoor where he killed a fellow patient. He said that he wanted to 'capture the souls' of his victims and that if the police had not got to him he would have killed far more.

Bloody hell, that's some case. So he was insane (could have been psychopathic as well of course) and can't be held criminally responsible for his actions if killing whilst in a psychotic state. Definitely in the right place at Broadmoor.

[Mon Dieu4]

Peter Bryan the 'Cannibal Killer' a paranoid schizophreniac was first in trouble in the 1990s with the law for trying to push a fellow resident out of a sixth-floor window where he stayed. He was later to spend eight years in Rampton for killing a young shopworker - the daughter of the owner of the shop from where he had been sacked for stealing. He beat her to death with a hammer in front of her brother.

He was considered to have have made 'progress' and transferred to an establishment that was a government experiment at the time. He was later released into the care of a psychiatrist and a social worker. After a MH tribunal,he was released into intoa hostel where he could come and go as he wished. His social worker reported that there were no major risks associated and applied for low-support accommodation for him. Instead, he was transferred to a low-secure psychiatric ward after an alleged sexual assault on a 16 year-old girl.

A month later he walked out of his MH unit and killed a friend, Brian Cherry. neighbours heard screams and a voilent scene and the police were called. What they found was Cherry lying on the floor of the flat with both arms and one leg severed from his body. There was a frying pan on the cooker with his victim's brains in it. He was frying them in butter and cliamed they 'tasted nice'.

Believe that after that he went to Broadmoor where he killed a fellow patient. He said that he wanted to 'capture the souls' of his victims and that if the police had not got to him he would have killed far more.

Sounds like when I was on jury duty and so was my pal at the same time, I got a pretty boring run of the mill trial and she got a guy from West Lothian who had caved his pals head in with a hammer and then ate part of his brain and drank his blood, his reasoning behind it was that the vampire Akasha from the Anne Rice books has told him to do it and he would become an immortal vampire, a morbid side of me wishes I had got that trial instead

[Hibernia&Alba]

Sounds like when I was on jury duty and so was my pal at the same time, I got a pretty boring run of the mill trial and she got a guy from West Lothian who had caved his pals head in with a hammer and then ate part of his brain and drank his blood, his reasoning behind it was that the vampire Akasha from the Anne Rice books has told him to do it and he would become an immortal vampire, a morbid side of me wishes I had got that trial instead

:taxi


Go straight to Carstairs. Do not pass Go, do not collect £200.

[Mon Dieu4]

:taxi


Go straight to Carstairs. Do not pass Go, do not collect £200.

Think it's was Shotts he ended up in, he took his own life the following year if I remember correctly

[stu in nottingham]

The case of Michael Sams was a disturbing one. He's still alive I believe, incarcerated in prison somewhere. His first major crime was in kidnapping a teenaged sex worker, Julie Dart. He held her captive in a coffin-like box in his tumbledown workshop down a back lane in Newark, Notts. The box was chained to the floor.

His victim smashed her way out of the box one night but Sams had wired up an alarm to it. She couldnt get out of the room and Sams returned to chain her to a roof beam. He then made her write a ransom note to her boyfriend for £140,000. After she had written a series of notes Sams murdered her with a hammer to the head and dumped her body in the next county. Psychologists at the time were of the opinion that he wanted to 'prove himself' as a worthy adversary of the police and that the kidnap was more about 'practicing' on what he saw as a less worthy life.

Sams continued to send ransom notes to the police claiming he would kill more prostitutes and would cause a rail crash. He also tried to blackmail a supermarket chain by threatening to poison their food.

The event he became most infamous for was his kidnap of estate agent Stephanie Slater. After abducting her at a viewing of a property he tied her up and took her to his workshop in Newark. She was handcuffed, her legs bound, blindfolded and gagged then placed in a wheelie bin and kept their for eight days. he told her that would be electrocuted if she tried to move. Stephanie's boss paid a ranson for her and police followed him collecting the ransom but he gave them the slip.

After Stephanie's release, Sams' first wife recognised his voice in a recorded message played over the radio in an attempt to identify him. Sams continued to offend after incaceration and attacked a female probation officer with a metal spike. He was given a further eight years for that.

Sadly, Stephanie Slater passed away with cancer at just fifty years-old. There is something horribly unjust about that. Local in Newark had a slightly macabre nickname for the yard where Sams' workshop was, 'Wheelie bin lane'.

[Billy Whizz]

The case of Michael Sams was a disturbing one. He's still alive I believe, incarcerated in prison somewhere. His first major crime was in kidnapping a teenaged sex worker, Julie Dart. He held her captive in a coffin-like box in his tumbledown workshop down a back lane in Newark, Notts. The box was chained to the floor.

His victim smashed her way out of the box one night but Sams had wired up an alarm to it. She couldnt get out of the room and Sams returned to chain her to a roof beam. He then made her write a ransom note to her boyfriend for £140,000. After she had written a series of notes Sams murdered her with a hammer to the head and dumped her body in the next county. Psychologists at the time were of the opinion that he wanted to 'prove himself' as a worthy adversary of the police and that the kidnap was more about 'practicing' on what he saw as a less worthy life.

Sams continued to send ransom notes to the police claiming he would kill more prostitutes and would cause a rail crash. He also tried to blackmail a supermarket chain by threatening to poison their food.

The event he became most infamous for was his kidnap of estate agent Stephanie Slater. After abducting her at a viewing of a property he tied her up and took her to his workshop in Newark. She was handcuffed, her legs bound, blindfolded and gagged then placed in a wheelie bin and kept their for eight days. he told her that would be electrocuted if she tried to move. Stephanie's boss paid a ranson for her and police followed him collecting the ransom but he gave them the slip.

After Stephanie's release, Sams' first wife recognised his voice in a recorded message played over the radio in an attempt to identify him. Sams continued to offend after incaceration and attacked a female probation officer with a metal spike. He was given a further eight years for that.

Sadly, Stephanie Slater passed away with cancer at just fifty years-old. There is something horribly unjust about that. Local in Newark had a slightly macabre nickname for the yard where Sams' workshop was, 'Wheelie bin lane'.

I read that book a while back, was he linked to the other estate agent who’s never been found Suzy Lamplugh

[stu in nottingham]

I read that book a while back, was he linked to the other estate agent who’s never been found Suzy Lamplugh

Not sure he was? Suzie's abduction was in London I think whereas Stephanie's was in Birmingham and Julie Dart in Leeds. Not that the geography means too much.

[Billy Whizz]

Not sure he was? Suzie's abduction was in London I think whereas Stephanie's was in Birmingham and Julie Dart in Leeds. Not that the geography means too much.

Thanks Stu, must have been about 10 years or so ago I read this

[Smartie]

Thanks Stu, must have been about 10 years or so ago I read this

I'm positive he was always strongly linked to that case.

Never proven, never taken to trial but I think so many parts of it bore similarities to other things he had done that the police pretty much assumed it was also him.



There have been a few cases of unsolved murders being possibly attributed to other known serial killers, it's fascinating.

[Billy Whizz]

I'm positive he was always strongly linked to that case.

Never proven, never taken to trial but I think so many parts of it bore similarities to other things he had done that the police pretty much assumed it was also him.



There have been a few cases of unsolved murders being possibly attributed to other known serial killers, it's fascinating.

Like Bible John

[Hibernia&Alba]

The police think John Cannan, serial rapist who killed Shirley Banks in October 1987, is the strongest suspect in the Suzy Lamplugh case. Cannan had been released from Wormword Scrubs just before Lamplugh vanished from Fulham. He is certainly a strong suspect.


https://youtu.be/7mnR-tT-0l8

[stu in nottingham]

I'm positive he was always strongly linked to that case.

Never proven, never taken to trial but I think so many parts of it bore similarities to other things he had done that the police pretty much assumed it was also him.



There have been a few cases of unsolved murders being possibly attributed to other known serial killers, it's fascinating.

I've read that Sams claimed responsiblity for Suzy Lamplugh from behind bars. There was a book written about her disappearance where the author proposed Sams as the perpetrator. The police didn't believe there was a link and Suzy's family saw it as a sick hoax by Sams. There's a view that he was influenced by the method of kdnapping employed on Suzy.

[Caversham Green]

One that was very close to home for me was the Templeton Wood murders of the late 1970s. I was living in Birkhill, which is right next to the woods, at the time and knew both of the victims by sight. I was even driving home through the woods on the night one of the girls went missing. It has never officially been solved but there were strong suspicions that a guy that was convicted for a double murder a few years later was the killer. Forty-plus years on I still get shivers thinking about that year.

[Jay]

I listen to a few podcasts on murders and serial killers . Some really interesting stuff especially on the investigations

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

2 series on SKY well worth a watch - Britain's most evil killers and The World's most evil killers.

[Bristolhibby]

My Missus would love this thread. She loves serial killer programmes.

I find half way through them I’m on Wikipedia looking up the cases.

J

[KdyHby]

I went to school in Harrogate in the early 70s, I can recall one of the pupils returning having lost his parent/s to the Black Panther https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Neilson
.
My only other recollection was that they had a post office.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I enjoyed the first part of Des, based on the Brian Masters book. David Tennant plays the role of Nilsen well, capturing his extremely complicated personality - the animal lover who strangled fifteen men; the guy appalled by the cruelty of Thatcherism who dismembered those men.

[CropleyWasGod]

I enjoyed the first part of Des, based on the Brian Masters book. David Tennant plays the role of Nilsen well, capturing his extremely complicated personality - the animal lover who strangled fifteen men; the guy appalled by the cruelty of Thatcherism who dismembered those men.

I did too.

I caught myself laughing at some of the lines ("I think it was me that killed him. It might have been the omelette"), as if it were a black comedy, but had to remind myself this was real. To what extent Tennant is playing him as he really was, or whether he has gone over the top, will no doubt be debated.

Fascinating so far.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I did too.

I caught myself laughing at some of the lines ("I think it was me that killed him. It might have been the omelette"), as if it were a black comedy, but had to remind myself this was real. To what extent Tennant is playing him as he really was, or whether he has gone over the top, will no doubt be debated.

Fascinating so far.

Yeah, Nilsen really did say those things in interview, as Masters relates in Killing For Company. It shows the mind of a true psychopath; someone who had that man's body parts in plastic bags in house, yet could make such a throwaway remark. Similarly, when police asked how many bodies he had under floorboards at any given time and he joked, "I didn't do a stock check". Hard to believe anyone could say such things to the police, but Nilsen had no feelings about killing.

[Hiber-nation]

Just watched the first one. Loved David Tennant's performance, OTT or not it was brilliant as far as I'm concerned and utterly convincing.

[stu in nottingham]

Just watched the second episode on catch-up and the final episode back-to-back. It was a tremendous performance by David Tennant and underlined his versatility as an actor.

Some ot the scenes I found most interesting and intriguing were those where Nilsen was meeting his biographer. The moments when he began to manipulate the writer's thought patterns by getting into his head quite cooly and nonchalently appeared very accurate to me. It reminded me of some of the reported manipulative behaviour of Ian Brady. His sometimes righteous indignation at the way he was being treated was quite powerful too.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm just about to watch the next two parts of Des. Looking forward to this.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm just about to watch the next two parts of Des. Looking forward to this.

I thought the makers of the drama handled the story tactfully, staying clear of graphic scenes of murder to concentrate upon Nilsen's state of mind. I would recommend the Brian Masters book 'Killing For Company' as an excellent example of the true crime genre, though I must admit some of the descriptions of how Nilsen dismembered his victims were difficult. The drama, wisely I think, avoided that for TV.

Nilsen's psychology is difficult to get a handle on. He seems to cross into various diagnoses of the forensic psychologists and psychiatrists. Certainly someone, whilst not clinically insane, who suffered from more than one severe personality disorder. A very complex and troubled man whose issues manifested themselves in the worst way.

[EH6 Hibby]

I watched all 3 episodes of Des last night. David Tennant was brilliant, he’s so good at playing sinister characters. He was good in Criminal too, I think that was the first time I’d seen him play a darker character.

[-Jonesy-]

Wonder if any fellow .netters agree with the theory that, for want of a better term, the “golden age” of serial killing of 70s 80s and 90s has been effectively nullified by the advancement in police investigative techniques making it much harder to commit a string of murders and if this is true is it the reason why America has seen such a sharp increase in mass killings in the last decade or so.

[Peevemor]

Wonder if any fellow .netters agree with the theory that, for want of a better term, the “golden age” of serial killing of 70s 80s and 90s has been effectively nullified by the advancement in police investigative techniques making it much harder to commit a string of murders and if this is true is it the reason why America has seen such a sharp increase in mass killings in the last decade or so.I'm not sure there's a link. Someone who'll empty a machine gun into a crowd won't necessarily share the same mentality as a serial killer.

I thinks it's down to guns being easier to get a hold of.

[-Jonesy-]

I'm not sure there's a link. Someone who'll empty a machine gun into a crowd won't necessarily share the same mentality as a serial killer.

I thinks it's down to guns being easier to get a hold of.

But where have all the serial killers gone?

[Saturday Boy]

But where have all the serial killers gone?

When you look at the mortality rates for the USA, Brazil, India and the UK, you might just begin to think that they’re hiding in plain sight.

[EH6 Hibby]

But where have all the serial killers gone?

It’s like you said, with the advancement in technology and DNA, they’re being caught before they get to the numbers they would have gotten to previously. Even if they’re not being caught by DNA, the amount of CCTV and private security cameras mean that it’s much harder to do anything without being caught on camera.

[Mon Dieu4]

But where have all the serial killers gone?

If I remember correctly stats say in the US alone that there will likely be around 4000 serial killers on the go at any given time

[KdyHby]

https://www.grunge.com/200167/the-most-dangerous-active-serial-killers-in-2020/

[-Jonesy-]

If I remember correctly stats say in the US alone that there will likely be around 4000 serial killers on the go at any given time

Surely not even in the 80/90s with all the heavy hitters. I’m sure I’ve read the FBI estimate is around 20/30 active at any one time these days.

One possible reason for the decline in active killers could also possibly be advancements in metal health diagnosis and treatment.

A worrying amount of the more well known killers in the US were part of “the system” at some point and detained for psychological treatment. 40 years ago I guess it was more common to hold onto someone who was obviously disturbed and eventually release them. Arthur Shawcross even murdered two children and managed a 25 year plea deal which he served all of 14 years before being paroled and subsequently murdering 11 women.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Wonder if any fellow .netters agree with the theory that, for want of a better term, the “golden age” of serial killing of 70s 80s and 90s has been effectively nullified by the advancement in police investigative techniques making it much harder to commit a string of murders and if this is true is it the reason why America has seen such a sharp increase in mass killings in the last decade or so.

From what I've read, I wouldn't conflate serial killers with spree killers (those who kill a large number at once, usually with guns) as their psychological profiles are usually different. The spree killer is much more likely to be suffering from an acute mental illness or has pent up anger, a grudge against society, which suddenly explodes. The serial killer is almost always psychopathic: not mentally ill but with an unalterable personality disorder, whose drive to kill becomes irrepressible from time to time. There can be some overlap in certain cases, but usually such crimes are distinct. A serial killer isn't thinking about the risk of being caught; he must satisfy his drive to kill and will try to evade capture as best he can. On the other hand, spree killers often end their massacre in suicide.

[-Jonesy-]

From what I've read, I wouldn't conflate serial killers with spree killers (those who kill a large number at once, usually with guns) as their psychological profiles are usually different. The spree killer is much more likely to be suffering from an acute mental illness or has pent up anger, a grudge against society, which suddenly explodes. The serial killer is almost always psychopathic: not mentally ill but with an unalterable personality disorder, whose drive to kill becomes irrepressible from time to time. There can be some overlap in certain cases, but usually such crimes are distinct. A serial killer isn't thinking about the risk of being caught; he must satisfy his drive to kill and will try to evade capture as best he can. On the other hand, spree killers often end their massacre in suicide.

Good points and well made however with reference to one of your last points.
I would disagree and say that serial killers, at least the majority, do worry about being caught. At least those the FBI would class as organised rather than disorganised. Many are highly intelligent with an inate sense of survival often deliberately misleading police to evade capture, BTK Dennis Rader took a 12 year hiatus before killing again and then retired from murder whilst continuing to taunt police for over a decade. It’s quite common for killers to ramp up into a “berserker” mode leading to many kills in quick succession with less concern for self preservation. Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer were all caught due to this sort of final spree.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Good points and well made however with reference to one of your last points.
I would disagree and say that serial killers, at least the majority, do worry about being caught. At least those the FBI would class as organised rather than disorganised. Many are highly intelligent with an inate sense of survival often deliberately misleading police to evade capture, BTK Dennis Rader took a 12 year hiatus before killing again and then retired from murder whilst continuing to taunt police for over a decade. It’s quite common for killers to ramp up into a “berserker” mode leading to many kills in quick succession with less concern for self preservation. Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy and Jeffrey Dahmer were all caught due to this sort of final spree.

Aye, when I say not thinking about getting caught, I mean a serial killer usually can't stop killing, despite the risks. When looking for a victim, he is overtaken by his impulse to kill; a trait of psychopathy is impulse driven behaviour and thrill seeking, often recklessly. Rader did stop killing for a number of years, you are correct, but he also killed one of his own neighbours whilst police were looking for a serial killer, so bringing the investigation right to his own doorstep. The serial killer doesn't want to be caught, but he won't stop killing but will try to cover his tracks as best he can when the urge to kill becomes too powerful. Each murder makes capture more likely, but that risk doesn't stop him. The spree killer is always identified and is either arrested or commits suicide.

[-Jonesy-]

Aye, when I say not thinking about getting caught, I mean a serial killer usually can't stop killing, despite the risks. When looking for a victim, he is overtaken by his impulse to kill; a trait of psychopathy is impulse driven behaviour and thrill seeking, often recklessly. Rader did stop killing for a number of years, you are correct, but he also killed one of his own neighbours whilst police were looking for a serial killer, so bringing the investigation right to his own doorstep. The serial killer doesn't want to be caught, but he won't stop killing but will try to cover his tracks as best he can when the urge to kill becomes too powerful. Each murder makes capture more likely, but that risk doesn't stop him. The spree killer is always identified and is either arrested or commits suicide.
Do you work in forensic/criminal psychology or just weirdly fascinated by it, like me.

[Smartie]

I'm fascinated by forensics.

It led me to my current job, in a strange way.

Forensics is a tiny specialty within my line of work and it was that tiny specialty that led me to do my course at Uni. I was obsessed by crime, murder and serial killers as a teenager and so this little niche drew me in.

Fast forward to final year and we reach the part on forensics. OMG - it was absolutely horrific. I am still traumatised by the slides I saw and the actual reality of what it involves. Instantly I realised - I cannot do this, and had to abandon any thoughts of going down that path (which is very difficult to get into, very competitive and a bit of a closed shop anyway) and end up doing what 99% of people who do my course do. And when I get asked "what made you do...." I have to make up some rubbish that isn't "I fancied forensics but it turned out I didn't have the stomach for it" to appear positive about actually wanting to be there.

I have enormous respect for anyone who works in that field of work because it is grim.

[-Jonesy-]

I'm fascinated by forensics.

It led me to my current job, in a strange way.

Forensics is a tiny specialty within my line of work and it was that tiny specialty that led me to do my course at Uni. I was obsessed by crime, murder and serial killers as a teenager and so this little niche drew me in.

Fast forward to final year and we reach the part on forensics. OMG - it was absolutely horrific. I am still traumatised by the slides I saw and the actual reality of what it involves. Instantly I realised - I cannot do this, and had to abandon any thoughts of going down that path (which is very difficult to get into, very competitive and a bit of a closed shop anyway) and end up doing what 99% of people who do my course do. And when I get asked "what made you do...." I have to make up some rubbish that isn't "I fancied forensics but it turned out I didn't have the stomach for it" to appear positive about actually wanting to be there.

I have enormous respect for anyone who works in that field of work because it is grim.

I nearly did it myself at Uni...what was it you ended up doing for a living using the skills you learned?

[stu in nottingham]

Aye, when I say not thinking about getting caught, I mean a serial killer usually can't stop killing, despite the risks. When looking for a victim, he is overtaken by his impulse to kill; a trait of psychopathy is impulse driven behaviour and thrill seeking, often recklessly. Rader did stop killing for a number of years, you are correct, but he also killed one of his own neighbours whilst police were looking for a serial killer, so bringing the investigation right to his own doorstep. The serial killer doesn't want to be caught, but he won't stop killing but will try to cover his tracks as best he can when the urge to kill becomes too powerful. Each murder makes capture more likely, but that risk doesn't stop him. The spree killer is always identified and is either arrested or commits suicide.

This discussion has largely focused on the serial killers themselves. Yes, advances in forensic technology and arguably stricter parole procedures have helped in curtailing their behaviour, no doubt. What hasn't been considered here possibly is the changing behaviour of the general public - the potential victims. Again arguable, but there is more widespread caution in the way people live their lives. There is more awareness of potential danger than there was say, in the 1980s.

[Smartie]

I nearly did it myself at Uni...what was it you ended up doing for a living using the skills you learned?

A degree in dentistry can only take you in so many directions - I'll let you guess...

I've done quite a lot of training down in South Wales in recent years as I've branched out more into adult orthodontics but I had a really strange fascination with a murder case in Cardiff when I was a teenager. Strangely I had forgotten/ lost interest in this until it all flooded back to me when I was first down there a few years ago.

I used to love Crimewatch, and was absolutely fascinated by crime solving techniques. There was a murder in Cardiff that had featured on Crimewatch and it used loads of cutting edge techniques. All they had to begin with was a body wrapped in a carpet but they managed to get from there to solving the murder and it just blew my mind. The body was found in 1989 and by analysing the bugs around the body they realised that it must have been there for about 8 years. After taking x-rays of the teeth and analysing the stages of development of all of the teeth they could work out that the body was about 15 and a half years old. Other features of the skeleton would suggest that the victim was female. When one of the teeth was then sectioned, there was evidence of a rush of blood to the pulp of the tooth, which was suggestive of a violent death, probably strangulation. They then took the skull, gave it to a forensic artist who built up average thicknesses of flesh onto the skull to give a likeness of what the person would have looked like, which they then circulated in the press - did you know a girl who went missing in 1981, in her mid teens, who looked like this? Some people recognised her as being a teenager who had run away from a home, and when they did DNA tests with her parents they were able to identify her (I think this was the first time this technique was used in this way), along with the matching of dental records.

They then put out an appeal on Crimewatch which led to someone coming forward and giving the information that led to a conviction.

That all just blew my mind and I thought the dentistry aspect of it was fascinating, so went down that path, only to realise much later that it wasn't for me at all.

I could tell some stories about forensic dentistry but a lot of it is probably too grim to be appropriate. I was talking to a few uni mates on WhatsApp earlier this week though about certain characters we have met in our time in dentistry. The guy who interviewed me for my place at Uni was the main forensic dentist for the NE of Scotland as well as a prosthodontist. Seemingly he flew out to help with the aftermath of the Boxing Day tsunami and has lectured on his experiences. I've been to a lecture by at the guy who did the role for the SE of Scotland and he was heavily involved in helping identify the victims of the Lockerbie bombing. Those are some slides I'll never be able to unsee, and some stories I'll never be able to unhear.

It is a thread about serial killers though, so I don't feel too guilty about delving a wee bit into the macabre...

[Hibernia&Alba]

Do you work in forensic/criminal psychology or just weirdly fascinated by it, like me.

No, I'm just an amateur; I've never studied psychology, though I find it interesting, particularly forensic psychology.

[Hibernia&Alba]

A degree in dentistry can only take you in so many directions - I'll let you guess...

I've done quite a lot of training down in South Wales in recent years as I've branched out more into adult orthodontics but I had a really strange fascination with a murder case in Cardiff when I was a teenager. Strangely I had forgotten/ lost interest in this until it all flooded back to me when I was first down there a few years ago.

I used to love Crimewatch, and was absolutely fascinated by crime solving techniques. There was a murder in Cardiff that had featured on Crimewatch and it used loads of cutting edge techniques. All they had to begin with was a body wrapped in a carpet but they managed to get from there to solving the murder and it just blew my mind. The body was found in 1989 and by analysing the bugs around the body they realised that it must have been there for about 8 years. After taking x-rays of the teeth and analysing the stages of development of all of the teeth they could work out that the body was about 15 and a half years old. Other features of the skeleton would suggest that the victim was female. When one of the teeth was then sectioned, there was evidence of a rush of blood to the pulp of the tooth, which was suggestive of a violent death, probably strangulation. They then took the skull, gave it to a forensic artist who built up average thicknesses of flesh onto the skull to give a likeness of what the person would have looked like, which they then circulated in the press - did you know a girl who went missing in 1981, in her mid teens, who looked like this? Some people recognised her as being a teenager who had run away from a home, and when they did DNA tests with her parents they were able to identify her (I think this was the first time this technique was used in this way), along with the matching of dental records.

They then put out an appeal on Crimewatch which led to someone coming forward and giving the information that led to a conviction.

That all just blew my mind and I thought the dentistry aspect of it was fascinating, so went down that path, only to realise much later that it wasn't for me at all.

I could tell some stories about forensic dentistry but a lot of it is probably too grim to be appropriate. I was talking to a few uni mates on WhatsApp earlier this week though about certain characters we have met in our time in dentistry. The guy who interviewed me for my place at Uni was the main forensic dentist for the NE of Scotland as well as a prosthodontist. Seemingly he flew out to help with the aftermath of the Boxing Day tsunami and has lectured on his experiences. I've been to a lecture by at the guy who did the role for the SE of Scotland and he was heavily involved in helping identify the victims of the Lockerbie bombing. Those are some slides I'll never be able to unsee, and some stories I'll never be able to unhear.

It is a thread about serial killers though, so I don't feel too guilty about delving a wee bit into the macabre...

Karen Price


https://youtu.be/DtHmJZyvQXQ

[Kato]

Mad Vlad


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Romanov_(serial_killer)

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Hibernia&Alba]

A macabre piece of trivia: Samuel Little, believed to America's most prolific serial killer, died in prison aged 80 on December 30th. He had sixty confirmed killings, but confessed to a total of 93 murders of women, some of which are being re-investigated. Incredibly, he was active in serial murder for around 35 years, but may have killed his final victim over a decade before he was caught in 2012. It was a drugs charge that first linked his DNA to murder cold cases. In prison he painted portraits of his victims, to help police with possible identification.

[Billy Whizz]

A macabre piece of trivia: Samuel Little, believed to America's most prolific serial killer, died in prison aged 80 on December 30th. He had sixty confirmed killings, but confessed to a total of 93 murders of women, some of which are being re-investigated. Incredibly, he was active in serial murder for around 35 years, but may have killed his final victim over a decade before he was caught in 2012. It was a drugs charge that first linked his DNA to murder cold cases. In prison he painted portraits of his victims, to help police with possible identification.

I read about him in yesterday’s news, it’s an horrific number of murders to commit

[Hibernia&Alba]

I read about him in yesterday’s news, it’s an horrific number of murders to commit

And he managed to elude capture for so long.

[Billy Whizz]

And he managed to elude capture for so long.

Haven’t read his story, how did he manage to evade the police

[Hibernia&Alba]

Haven’t read his story, how did he manage to evade the police

I'm not certain, but he did move around a lot, which makes the job of catching a serial killer much harder. He had victims in numerous states across southern USA. Before DNA technology, police wouldn't have known it was the same killer in a lot of cases; and, ironically, it was a drugs arrest, not a murder, which eventually got him via DNA.