Israeli Woman Sues Easyjet

[Keith_M]

...after being asked to move twice on a flight because two Ultra Orthodox men refused to sit next to her.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/27/woman-sues-easyjet-after-being-told-to-move-seats-due-to-ultra-orthodox-jewish-men


Apparently this is quite a common event...

(this is from an earlier article)
“What happened to me on this flight isn’t that different from what happens on almost every flight,” she told Voice of Israel radio. “You get on a plane, and the plane is about to take off but a whole bunch of ultra-orthodox men start playing around, moving around, whispering, moving back and forth trying to find different seats … Anyone who’s ever travelled on El Al has experienced this.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/30/israeli-airline-ultra-orthodox-men-bullying-women

[neil7908]

Absolutely outrageous that that they would ask her to move. They airline should be hammered.

[Pretty Boy]

I'm a bit wary of posting this because it carries the risk of being taken the wrong way or being seen as insensitive but here goes.

The only time I can recollect encountering orthodox Jewish men was whilst visiting Auschwitz. There were a couple of women in the group I was with and on a few ocassions the men just barged past them with no regard for them at all. I'm not talking about brushing past in a crowded space but very forcefully cutting them off and making no attempt to avoid contact. I was a it nonplussed and didn't really know how to react, it felt a bit wrong to pull them up for such behaviour there of all places. After the 4th or 5th time this happened a young guy, who I assume was also Jewish given he was wearing a yarmulke, apologised and said 'they have no respect or regard for women at all'.

It seems a very deep seated cultural issue; there are some interesting articles around the rituals married women in the Orthodox Jewish community partake in and the very regimented lives couples lead.

[Hibbyradge]

I would recommend watching Orthodox on Netflix which is closely based on the true life experiences of a young woman who ran away from the strict Orthodox Jewish community she was brought up in.

[JimBHibees]

I would recommend watching Orthodox on Netflix which is closely based on the true life experiences of a young woman who ran away from the strict Orthodox Jewish community she was brought up in.

Watched that very interesting programme

[Hibrandenburg]

...after being asked to move twice on a flight because two Ultra Orthodox men refused to sit next to her.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/aug/27/woman-sues-easyjet-after-being-told-to-move-seats-due-to-ultra-orthodox-jewish-men


Apparently this is quite a common event...

(this is from an earlier article)
“What happened to me on this flight isn’t that different from what happens on almost every flight,” she told Voice of Israel radio. “You get on a plane, and the plane is about to take off but a whole bunch of ultra-orthodox men start playing around, moving around, whispering, moving back and forth trying to find different seats … Anyone who’s ever travelled on El Al has experienced this.”
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/30/israeli-airline-ultra-orthodox-men-bullying-women


Flights to Israel, in particular Tel Aviv are generally a nightmare for the crew. For some reason many of the passengers on these flights see no reason whatsoever to abide by flight safety regulations and from start to finish these flights can be a struggle to get passengers to comply with basic safety instructions. Particularly female staff have an exceptionally hard time and especially German female crew who are not only ignored but are regularly on the receiving end of verbal and sometimes even physical abuse.

These flights are so unpopular amongst crew that as soon as duty rosters are announced there is immediately hectic activity on the duty swap platforms with female crew desperately trying to get taken off these flights.

Most people won't realise how complicated it is to prepare and secure passengers and an aircraft for flight and there are constant checks by international aviation agencies who have undercover inspectors acting as passengers on board. When you have 180 passengers on board and 1 of them decides to not comply with safety regulations it can be challenging, but when there's 30 or more it's just a complete nightmare. Add to that the political sensitivity of these flights and you have the potential to cause international outrage (especially if the crew are German) like the case here in question has done.

The religious aspect poses problems too. We try and provide an area in the back galley for praying but when you have 50-60-70 people bowing from the waist or kneeling then it causes all sorts of problems in a confined space like an aluminium can speeding through the skies at 38 000ft, especially during take-off or landing where extensive safety and security measures are in place.

Frequently you also see some orthodox jews who step into a full body sized plastic bag on descent (apparently it protects them from rising evil spirits when flying over graveyards). Now this might sound harmless enough but it takes ages and at a time where they should be sat down and strapped in, also it's very difficult to fasten a seatbelt when you're wrapped up in a plastic bubble and add to that the problem that there's a 2 to 1 chance that they need to be reseated otherwise they will block people getting out in the case of an emergency evacuation.

The crew in the cabin are left with difficult choices because some of these men will under no circumstances listen to them let alone follow their instructions. Whilst I sympathise with the lady in the story I know for a fact that sometimes crew have no alternative than to try and ask other sensible passengers to compromise in the interests of the safety of all on board. I encourage crew to write reports on disruptive practices so that the airline can blacklist individual passengers and stop them booking with us in future.

I know some will probably see this post as anti semitic but it's based on personal experience and many reports that land on my desk, but if given the choice between passenger safety and the freedom to practice religious beliefs, then passenger safety will always take priority.

[neil7908]

Flights to Israel, in particular Tel Aviv are generally a nightmare for the crew. For some reason many of the passengers on these flights see no reason whatsoever to abide by flight safety regulations and from start to finish these flights can be a struggle to get passengers to comply with basic safety instructions. Particularly female staff have an exceptionally hard time and especially German female crew who are not only ignored but are regularly on the receiving end of verbal and sometimes even physical abuse.

These flights are so unpopular amongst crew that as soon as duty rosters are announced there is immediately hectic activity on the duty swap platforms with female crew desperately trying to get taken off these flights.

Most people won't realise how complicated it is to prepare and secure passengers and an aircraft for flight and there are constant checks by international aviation agencies who have undercover inspectors acting as passengers on board. When you have 180 passengers on board and 1 of them decides to not comply with safety regulations it can be challenging, but when there's 30 or more it's just a complete nightmare. Add to that the political sensitivity of these flights and you have the potential to cause international outrage (especially if the crew are German) like the case here in question has done.

The religious aspect poses problems too. We try and provide an area in the back galley for praying but when you have 50-60-70 people bowing from the waist or kneeling then it causes all sorts of problems in a confined space like an aluminium can speeding through the skies at 38 000ft, especially during take-off or landing where extensive safety and security measures are in place.

Frequently you also see some orthodox jews who step into a full body sized plastic bag on descent (apparently it protects them from rising evil spirits when flying over graveyards). Now this might sound harmless enough but it takes ages and at a time where they should be sat down and strapped in, also it's very difficult to fasten a seatbelt when you're wrapped up in a plastic bubble and add to that the problem that there's a 2 to 1 chance that they need to be reseated otherwise they will block people getting out in the case of an emergency evacuation.

The crew in the cabin are left with difficult choices because some of these men will under no circumstances listen to them let alone follow their instructions. Whilst I sympathise with the lady in the story I know for a fact that sometimes crew have no alternative than to try and ask other sensible passengers to compromise in the interests of the safety of all on board. I encourage crew to write reports on disruptive practices so that the airline can blacklist individual passengers and stop them booking with us in future.

I know some will probably see this post as anti semitic but it's based on personal experience and many reports that land on my desk, but if given the choice between passenger safety and the freedom to practice religious beliefs, then passenger safety will always take priority.

Seems like a very reasoned post, respectfully worded and based on facts. I don't see a way anyone could even suggest it was antisemitic.

I have huge sympathy with flight crew in these situations. Ultimately though it shouldn't be their responsibility. The airlines should be ashamed that they aid and abet such outrageous displays of sexism. They need to stop this practice immediately and if they are unwilling, should be shut down.

[Kato]

Seems like a very reasoned post, respectfully worded and based on facts. I don't see a way anyone could even suggest it was antisemitic.

I have huge sympathy with flight crew in these situations. Ultimately though it shouldn't be their responsibility. The airlines should be ashamed that they aid and abet such outrageous displays of sexism. They need to stop this practice immediately and if they are unwilling, should be shut down.I don't see it as anti-semitic. Fundamentalist versions of most religions (all of which are made-up fictions written by men) are usually rife with misogyny and singular behaviours towards some kind of "other" - as well as an over-riding belief that they should be able to do whatever they want.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[The Modfather]

I don’t get why the airlines don’t just ban these kind of passengers that cause problems on a flight. It’s not like the airlines would be banning all ultra Orthodox Jews as I’m sure the vast majority can hold their beliefs why acting in a civilised manner while paying for a service of their choice. Ban the bad eggs the same way they would those drunk and causing problems.

If you’re that staunch in how you follow the scriptures etc and how you live your life I’m surprised there isn’t some conflict in actually flying within those religious texts.

[Keith_M]

...After the 4th or 5th time this happened a young guy, who I assume was also Jewish given he was wearing a yarmulke, apologised and said 'they have no respect or regard for women at all'.

It seems a very deep seated cultural issue; there are some interesting articles around the rituals married women in the Orthodox Jewish community partake in and the very regimented lives couples lead.


That's exactly what it is and it really isn't representative of Jewish people in general, or of mainstream Judaism. I have some Jewish colleagues (they're from the US, but visit us a lot in Glasgow) and they would never treat women like this.

I've always felt that these Ultra Orthodox 'sects' have more in common with the extreme religious views of certain Gulf states than they'd care to admit.

[-Jonesy-]

Frequently you also see some orthodox jews who step into a full body sized plastic bag on descent (apparently it protects them from rising evil spirits when flying over graveyards).



Ah yes, of all of mankind’s countless technological innovations of the modern age the discovery that a thin layer of polymerised hydrocarbon will provide adequate protection from malevolent beings from a spiritual dimension is surely one of humanity’s greatest.

[Hibrandenburg]

Ah yes, of all of mankind’s countless technological innovations of the modern age the discovery that a thin layer of polymerised hydrocarbon will provide adequate protection from malevolent beings from a spiritual dimension is surely one of humanity’s greatest.

I absolutely love learning about different cultures but some beliefs are just damn weird.

[Keith_M]

Ah yes, of all of mankind’s countless technological innovations of the modern age the discovery that a thin layer of polymerised hydrocarbon will provide adequate protection from malevolent beings from a spiritual dimension is surely one of humanity’s greatest.


It's quite clever, when you think about it.

Giant condoms protect against the spirits of the dead.

[lapsedhibee]

I absolutely love learning about different cultures but some beliefs are just damn weird.

Could be a trend-setting strategy for Covid-age air travel though.

[DaveF]

I absolutely love learning about different cultures but some beliefs are just damn weird.

That's almost as crazy as the Bury FC statement.

[Peevemor]

I absolutely love learning about different cultures but some beliefs are just damn weird."Ancient religious rules that forbid him to fly over cemeteries"...

I must have missed the bit where they speak about air travel in the Old Testament.

Or maybe there are some lesser known commandments - blessed are those whose hand luggage exceedeths not certain dimensions.

[Future17]

"Ancient religious rules that forbid him to fly over cemeteries"...

I must have missed the bit where they speak about air travel in the Old Testament.

Or maybe there are some lesser known commandments - blessed are those whose hand luggage exceedeths not certain dimensions.

It should really have said "...forbid him to Passover cemeteries...".

[Hibrandenburg]

"Ancient religious rules that forbid him to fly over cemeteries"...

I must have missed the bit where they speak about air travel in the Old Testament.

Or maybe there are some lesser known commandments - blessed are those whose hand luggage exceedeths not certain dimensions.

Yes I had a chortle at that. It was badly worded.

[1 8 7 5]

The world has had enough of these men with beards.

Why cant these grown adults see the ridiculous folly of their gods? The utter nonsense of each of these sects?

Any jews, christians, muslims, zoroastrians (zorros, or roasters for short:greengrin), baha I's, etc etc etc, looking in, your god isnt the true and only god. Its just made up in your head.

All of you just believe in one more god than me, lets dump them like the world has already done with Thor and company and concentrate on the advancement of equality and humanity.

...whatever happened to Metatron?

orthordox jews... gies peace

[lapsedhibee]

The world has had enough of these men with beards.

Why cant these grown adults see the ridiculous folly of their gods? The utter nonsense of each of these sects?

Any jews, christians, muslims, zoroastrians (zorros, or roasters for short:greengrin), baha I's, etc etc etc, looking in, your god isnt the true and only god. Its just made up in your head.

All of you just believe in one more god than me, lets dump them like the world has already done with Thor and company and concentrate on the advancement of equality and humanity.

...whatever happened to Metatron?

orthordox jews... gies peace

No way am I giving up Thor. What would I call the day between Wednesday and Friday? :dunno:

[Hibrandenburg]

No way am I giving up Thor. What would I call the day between Wednesday and Friday? :dunno:

Thirstday?

[Just Alf]

Thirstday?That works, that definitely works!

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

[Itsnoteasy]

I'm a bit wary of posting this because it carries the risk of being taken the wrong way or being seen as insensitive but here goes.

The only time I can recollect encountering orthodox Jewish men was whilst visiting Auschwitz. There were a couple of women in the group I was with and on a few ocassions the men just barged past them with no regard for them at all. I'm not talking about brushing past in a crowded space but very forcefully cutting them off and making no attempt to avoid contact. I was a it nonplussed and didn't really know how to react, it felt a bit wrong to pull them up for such behaviour there of all places. After the 4th or 5th time this happened a young guy, who I assume was also Jewish given he was wearing a yarmulke, apologised and said 'they have no respect or regard for women at all'.

It seems a very deep seated cultural issue; there are some interesting articles around the rituals married women in the Orthodox Jewish community partake in and the very regimented lives couples lead.

That's the problem these days. People frightened to say something for fear of upsetting someone.

[Pretty Boy]

That's the problem these days. People frightened to say something for fear of upsetting someone.

In just about any other setting I would have said something.

Getting into a heated argument with a group of Jewish men in a Nazi death camp wasn't something I envisaged as a good look though.

[Kato]

That's the problem these days. People frightened to say something for fear of upsetting someone.

What would you have said to them?

[Itsnoteasy]

What would you have said to them?

I was referring to PB opening paragraph.