Women in men’s teams

[calumhibee1]

The Dutch FA have given permission for a woman to sign for a Dutch 4th tier team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53649795

What’s everyone’s thoughts on this? I’ve no issues with it in that if they’re good enough then bash on.

Is there a possibility though that this could work against women when it comes to sport? If we use the best female players - say Alex Morgan - nobody would ever have heard of her if she had been playing in mixed teams due to the fact she’d be playing at such a low level. Likewise people like the Williams sisters in tennis - if they were playing in mixed tournaments they’d be struggling to get past the first round the vast majority of the time rather than winning grand slam after grand slam.

Whilst on the surface it looks like the right thing to do, could it do more harm than good for female sports?

[Brightside]

No problem with it. Picked on merit. Would show up the guys that think a good female player wouldn’t hack it a Sunday league team. But no one for a second is suggested they will get to play at a higher level.

[green day]

The Dutch FA have given permission for a woman to sign for a Dutch 4th tier team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53649795

What’s everyone’s thoughts on this? I’ve no issues with it in that if they’re good enough then bash on.

Is there a possibility though that this could work against women when it comes to sport? If we use the best female players - say Alex Morgan - nobody would ever have heard of her if she had been playing in mixed teams due to the fact she’d be playing at such a low level. Likewise people like the Williams sisters in tennis - if they were playing in mixed tournaments they’d be struggling to get past the first round the vast majority of the time rather than winning grand slam after grand slam.

Whilst on the surface it looks like the right thing to do, could it do more harm than good for female sports?

Maybe in a "sport" which does not rely on muscles and physiology - say, snooker or darts?

Any sport where the physical advantage of men over women exists this would be daft and counterproductive.

Obviously there may be exceptions - Serena Williams would still earn a living but not at the same level. In my opinion, Wimbledon has it right - pay the same money for the winners of the event but keep separate competitions.

I am also quite surprised that Dutch women would want this as the unintended consequence potentially removes so many from earning a living from their chosen sport.

[Since452]

Not for me. They'd be at a serious physical disadvantage. Call me sexist if you want but I couldn't imagine going in for a full blooded 50/50 tackle in the pouring rain with a woman with as much force as I would a man. Goes against what's programmed inside. Sure that'll be the case for most men and that isn't fair for anyone or the integrity of the game.

[Keith_M]

If it becomes a widespread practice, the Women's leagues could potentially lose a large number of their best players. It also presents a few logistical challenges, like extra changing rooms.


But if the Dutch FA think it's fair, then why not.

[superfurryhibby]

No problem with it. Picked on merit. Would show up the guys that think a good female player wouldn’t hack it a Sunday league team. But no one for a second is suggested they will get to play at a higher level.

I'm all for equality and would have had no problems playing against a woman during my own playing days but results when woman's teams have played against mens /juveniles teams suggest that decent woman players would struggle with the physicality? That's my opinion, not sure why it would show me or anyone else up though?

[bingo70]

Would it not be de-valuing the woman’s game if they start losing their best players to men’s football?

[Since90+2]

Why not? True equality is putting men and women together and players being picked purely on ability rather than being male or female.

[jonny]

Was there not a Swedish international female player signed for a Serie B (might've been Serie C) team a few years ago. I don't think she played a single game.
I'm with 452 on this one, it's not for me.

[calumhibee1]

I'm all for equality and would have had no problems playing against a woman during my own playing days but results when woman's teams have played against mens /juveniles teams suggest that decent woman players would struggle with the physicality? That's my opinion, not sure why it would show me or anyone else up though?

Yup. There isn’t a female footballer in the world that would be able to play even in League Two in Scotland imo due to the physicality difference. If this is the start of the two genders merging within sports then I can’t see any way it’s a positive for women.

[calumhibee1]

Why not? True equality is putting men and women together and players being picked purely on ability rather than being male or female.

To me it is and it isn’t. Whilst I would agree with that outwith sport of course, when it comes to sport it wouldn’t be equality at all. Any sport that relies on physical prowess would see it become nigh on impossible for a woman to make it as a professional. Separate competitions make that possible.

[Brightside]

Would it not be de-valuing the woman’s game if they start losing their best players to men’s football?

Yes. There is a need to get a happy medium. Too many girls are currently being pushed into girl only teams at a young age. The top European players continue in mixed teams till 16. That’s hardly ever the case in Scotland. From a development point of view girls improve massively by playing with boys teams and it needs to be encouraged. 2 seasons ago there was only one girl in the South east region U15s league. I don’t think there are any now. The huge increase in girls teams has led to them shying away from boys teams. I do think it becomes an issue at 16+ as the physicality difference increases. I don’t think we will see many taking part in men’s football in this country. Even at the lowest level.

[Brightside]

Why not? True equality is putting men and women together and players being picked purely on ability rather than being male or female.

It’s not true equality though. Men are physically stronger than women and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that they should compete when they are at such a disadvantage. At a lower level of sport though it’s much less about physicality

[Keith_M]

When I was a kid, there was a girl that used to play football with the boys (though I don't think she was allowed to play for the school team).

She was about 4'10 and was a nasty wee piece of work. Mess with her on the pitch and your gonads might be getting carried home in your school bag.

[Since90+2]

It’s not true equality though. Men are physically stronger than women and I don’t think anyone is suggesting that they should compete when they are at such a disadvantage. At a lower level of sport though it’s much less about physicality

Football isn't all about physical strength though, there is nothing stopping a female being world class technically and in theory being the best technical player in the world or to take it further being the most technically gifted player ever.

[AltheHibby]

If it becomes a widespread practice, the Women's leagues could potentially lose a large number of their best players. It also presents a few logistical challenges, like extra changing rooms.


But if the Dutch FA think it's fair, then why not.

I doubt the Dutch will worry about the need for separate changing rooms!

On a related note, when I was a steward at non-league Andover we had Wendy Tom referee a match. She happily shared a very small changing room with the linesman. I assume that she changed in the shower (I didn't ask), so it may work depending on the layout of changing rooms. Whether it works due to the physical differences on the pitch is another question altogether .

[jonny]

Yes. There is a need to get a happy medium. Too many girls are currently being pushed into girl only teams at a young age. The top European players continue in mixed teams till 16. That’s hardly ever the case in Scotland. From a development point of view girls improve massively by playing with boys teams and it needs to be encouraged. 2 seasons ago there was only one girl in the South east region U15s league. I don’t think there are any now. The huge increase in girls teams has led to them shying away from boys teams. I do think it becomes an issue at 16+ as the physicality difference increases. I don’t think we will see many taking part in men’s football in this country. Even at the lowest level.

My 2 oldest boys play for Bayside 08's (born in 08 or later) in the Fife league, just about to go to 11 aside.
When they were younger just about every other team had 1 or 2 girls but I haven't seen any girls playing against them for the past couple of years.

[Since90+2]

To me it is and it isn’t. Whilst I would agree with that outwith sport of course, when it comes to sport it wouldn’t be equality at all. Any sport that relies on physical prowess would see it become nigh on impossible for a woman to make it as a professional. Separate competitions make that possible.

Football isn't predominantly about physical prowess though, if it was you'd have people who do Iron Man's and Ultramarathons being professional football players.

Football is about technical ability with the ball, ability to read the game and see things the average person can't. There is nothing that would stop a female doing all of those things better than a male.

[Since452]

When I was a kid, there was a girl that used to play football with the boys (though I don't think she was allowed to play for the school team).

She was about 4'10 and was a nasty wee piece of work. Mess with her on the pitch and your gonads might be getting carried home in your school bag.

Same here. Played with a lass who was a great wee player, every bit as good or even better than the boys. Then we hit 14/15 and she struggled to compete. Can't fight nature. I'm all for womens football, absolutely, however I think if they tried to complete with men it would have the opposite effect of what was intended in terms of equality etc.

[superfurryhibby]

Football isn't all about physical strength though, there is nothing stopping a female being world class technically and in theory being the best technical player in the world or to take it further being the most technically gifted player ever.

You're extrapolating that argument to the point where you cannot be serious.

How would you explain the result of Dallas academy under 15's 5 v USA woman's national team 2? I looked at photos and the boys, who were 15 or 14 were much larger than the women they were playing against. These were boys playing against full time professionals from a side near the top of the world rankings. Sometimes it is all about physicality, let's not delude ourselves.

[AltheHibby]

Football isn't predominantly about physical prowess though, if it was you'd have people who do Iron Man's and Ultramarathons being professional football players.

Football is about technical ability with the ball, ability to read the game and see things the average person can't. There is nothing that would stop a female doing all of those things better than a male.

If our league was about technical ability I would fully agree. However, consider this thought: a female Hibs player up against a Levien team.

[Not In The Know]

Not for me. They'd be at a serious physical disadvantage. Call me sexist if you want but I couldn't imagine going in for a full blooded 50/50 tackle in the pouring rain with a woman with as much force as I would a man. Goes against what's programmed inside. Sure that'll be the case for most men and that isn't fair for anyone or the integrity of the game.

There are woman stronger and fitter than Messi.

There are also men stronger and fitter than him, combining that with footballing ability is another thing altogether.

[Since90+2]

There are woman stronger and fitter than Messi.

There are also men stronger and fitter than him, combining that with footballing ability is another thing altogether.

Completely agree.

[Since452]

There are woman stronger and fitter than Messi.

There are also men stronger and fitter than him, combining that with footballing ability is another thing altogether.

I disagree. Messi is strong on the ball, lots of upper body strength and rapid in short bursts. The guy is a phenomenon.

[Since90+2]

I disagree. Messi is strong on the ball, lots of upper body strength and rapid in short bursts. The guy is a phenomenon.

You disagree that there are both men and women who are fitter and stronger than Messi?

[bigwheel]

Football isn't predominantly about physical prowess though, if it was you'd have people who do Iron Man's and Ultramarathons being professional football players.

Football is about technical ability with the ball, ability to read the game and see things the average person can't. There is nothing that would stop a female doing all of those things better than a male.

There is - It’s also about power and strength , this is what stops women competing at most levels with men. They may be technically better, but they cant compete physically at the equivalent level.

One small example: If you watch a women’s football match, you will rarely see a 60+ yard diagonal cross field pass, because there are very few women in the world that can hit them ..

Women’s football is great ..let’s enjoy their game developing in its own

[Brightside]

You're extrapolating that argument to the point where you cannot be serious.

How would you explain the result of Dallas academy under 15's 5 v USA woman's national team 2? I looked at photos and the boys, who were 15 or 14 were much larger than the women they were playing against. These were boys playing against full time professionals from a side near the top of the world rankings. Sometimes it is all about physicality, let's not delude ourselves.

That’s not the best example. It was a bounce game the day before an international and the women were told not to tackle. But the main point is correct. Physicality is important in football.

[Brightside]

There is - It’s also about power and strength , this is what stops women competing at most levels with men. They may be technically better, but they cant compete physically at the equivalent level.

One small example: If you watch a women’s football match, you will rarely see a 60+ yard diagonal cross field pass, because there are very few women in the world that can hit them ..

Women’s football is great ..let’s enjoy their game developing in its own

The 60 yard comment is nonsense. You see that week in week out in the women’s game.

[SquashedFrogg]

There is - It’s also about power and strength , this is what stops women competing at most levels with men. They may be technically better, but they cant compete physically at the equivalent level.

One small example: If you watch a women’s football match, you will rarely see a 60+ yard diagonal cross field pass, because there are very few women in the world that can hit them ..

Women’s football is great ..let’s enjoy their game developing in its own

Very few women can kick a ball 60 yards?

[matty_f]

I think that women should have the choice, and then it comes down to whether or not they're good enough - that will include physically as well as technically. Like male players, if they're good technically but physically poor, then the standard that they can reach is limited.

I suppose the issue comes when men want to move in the other direction and play in the women's game - if we accept that women's football is generally played at a lower level (technically and physically) than the men's game then it's not inconceivable to think that men who drop out of men's football as they're not at that level, could then make a case for playing in the women's game. This would be massively damaging to women's football.

Rugby recently made a rule that trans women couldn't compete in women's rugby, citing the evidence of an increase in physical harm to women when up against someone who had lived as a male through adolescence - maybe the football associations could cite the same evidence to prevent men entering the women's game.

[neil7908]

Yup. There isn’t a female footballer in the world that would be able to play even in League Two in Scotland imo due to the physicality difference. If this is the start of the two genders merging within sports then I can’t see any way it’s a positive for women.

What are you basing this on? Genuine question.

I haven't watched enough high end women's football or league 2 in Scotland to comment on the differences.

[Brightside]

Very few women can kick a ball 60 yards?

I’ve seen 12 year old girls play 60 yard passes. I’m going to assume the poster doesn’t watch much of the girls / women’s games.

[matty_f]

The 60 yard comment is nonsense. You see that week in week out in the women’s game.

That's true, but can they kick it that far trying to control a ball, like Flo Kamberi can? :greengrin

[bigwheel]

Very few women can kick a ball 60 yards?

Can ping a ball 60 yards...yes. It’s not just my opinion , it’s that of some of the top women’s football coaches in Scotland whom I’ve heard in discussion about this ...it’s one of the few differences

[Brightside]

What are you basing this on? Genuine question.

I haven't watched enough high end women's football or league 2 in Scotland to comment on the differences.

Personally I think you could slot a top end midfielder into a league 2 team and they’d cope. Kim Little / Caroline Weir type. There are some utter mince footballers in League 2 football.

[bigwheel]

The 60 yard comment is nonsense. You see that week in week out in the women’s game.

It’s not ...came from top women’s coaches in Scotland ..and I’m not taking about the distance. I’m talking about pinging with speed a long diagonal pass.

[Saturday Boy]

The 60 yard comment is nonsense. You see that week in week out in the women’s game.

The poster has obviously never seen Shiv playing for Hibs Women. 60 yard diagonal pass to the winger is her specialty.

[MWHIBBIES]

Maybe in a "sport" which does not rely on muscles and physiology - say, snooker or darts?

Any sport where the physical advantage of men over women exists this would be daft and counterproductive.

Obviously there may be exceptions - Serena Williams would still earn a living but not at the same level. In my opinion, Wimbledon has it right - pay the same money for the winners of the event but keep separate competitions.

I am also quite surprised that Dutch women would want this as the unintended consequence potentially removes so many from earning a living from their chosen sport.

Didn't she lose to a world ranked 500 guy who was a bit pished at the time?

[Brightside]

It’s not ...came from top women’s coaches in Scotland ..and I’m not taking about the distance. I’m talking about pinging with speed a long diagonal pass.

Id love to bring these coaches to some of the games they are missing then. 😂

[Brightside]

The poster has obviously never seen Shiv playing for Hibs Women. 60 yard diagonal pass to the winger is her specialty.

I never want Shiv hitting a ball in my direction. 😂

[bigwheel]

Id love to bring these coaches to some of the games they are missing then. [emoji23]

Well one was the national team coach , I’m sure they see more women’s football than most

[bigwheel]

I never want Shiv hitting a ball in my direction. [emoji23]

There may be some , I said very few.....

The broader point is it was one small example of the importance of power and strength in football . It will stop women competing at the same level

Ps. I notice you don’t mention that there are a number of women who play at a decent level who can’t do it ..and do often lack power in their striking of a ball ..

Be balanced about the debate.

[Brightside]

There may be some , I said very few.....

The broader point is it was one small example of the importance of power and strength in football . It will stop women competing at the same level

Ps. I notice you don’t mention that there are a number of women who play at a decent level who can’t do it ..and do often lack power in their striking of a ball ..

Be balanced about the debate.
I’m very balanced. I’ve said physically women cannot compete v men at a higher level. Btw if Shelley Kerr reckons players can’t ping 60 yard passes it maybe makes sense why she keeps picking the same poor CHs for the national team. 😂. To keep the balance there are plenty men in the game that can’t ping a ball 60 yards. Our keeper struggles for starters!

[calumhibee1]

What are you basing this on? Genuine question.

I haven't watched enough high end women's football or league 2 in Scotland to comment on the differences.

It’s just my opinion. Until it is actually attempted we’ll of course never know. But I would be very surprised if there was a woman at the top end of the female game who had the technical ability combined with the physical ability to compete with the men in that league. The technical ability would be there I’m sure but they’d get ran all over. Unless the women is a freak of nature it would be similar to sticking a Barcelona under 15 team into Scottish League Two.

[calumhibee1]

I’m very balanced. I’ve said physically women cannot compete v men at a higher level. Btw if Shelley Kerr reckons players can’t ping 60 yard passes it maybe makes sense why she keeps picking the same poor CHs for the national team. 😂. To keep the balance there are plenty men in the game that can’t ping a ball 60 yards. Our keeper struggles for starters!

I’d be stunned if there’s any men in professional football that can’t comfortably hit a ball 60 yards. I’m half decent at football, nowhere near pro, built like the side of a fiver yet I can quite comfortably clear half a pitch. If there’s a pro male that can’t do it (accuracy is a different thing mind!) then I’m yet to see it.

[MWHIBBIES]

I’m very balanced. I’ve said physically women cannot compete v men at a higher level. Btw if Shelley Kerr reckons players can’t ping 60 yard passes it maybe makes sense why she keeps picking the same poor CHs for the national team. 😂. To keep the balance there are plenty men in the game that can’t ping a ball 60 yards. Our keeper struggles for starters!

No he doesn't.

[granty6_2]

To me it is and it isn’t. Whilst I would agree with that outwith sport of course, when it comes to sport it wouldn’t be equality at all. Any sport that relies on physical prowess would see it become nigh on impossible for a woman to make it as a professional. Separate competitions make that possible.

OK - so take this as an example.

Messi is the best player in the world (subjectively). He is 5ft 7in, 10 stone and at a serious physical disadvantage, yet plays against very physical opponents, and comes out on top 90% of the time.

Why would this be different for a female?

I have said this for years, it will happen one day that a female player breaks into, what we now call the 'men's game'.

Historically, a career in football has never been an option for females, this is changing and over generations i sincerely hope gender is not a barrier to playing football at the top level, and with all due respect to some of the posters on this thread, change the antiquated attitude (IMO) of males towards females in football.

[Green Cabbage 7]

Some men couldn’t do what’s in this video I played at a decent level and couldn’t do half of it. Some pings into the back of the net from distance too also some men couldn’t do it, a lot of nonsense getting spouted on here.

https://youtu.be/C3mEzh4wOj4

[Green_one]

Football isn't all about physical strength though, there is nothing stopping a female being world class technically and in theory being the best technical player in the world or to take it further being the most technically gifted player ever.

Sorry I hold a very different view. Football does have a significant level of physicality, especially at the lower levels. Any equivalent level games will be non competitive. Men are naturally stronger, faster and taller. The degree of technical ability a woman would need to compete basically does not exist. Maybe a large woman could make it as a goalie. As an example the World champ USA women’s team average height is 5 7, with the tallest 5 11 . The average Man in the Premiership is over 6 foot. They are giving away about 10kg in weight, more in terms of bone and muscle. Yip you get short men like Stirling but they are fast, strong and skilful. No woman is built like him.

Someone mentioned Serena Williams in tennis. That is a game where they have lots of stats and understanding of skill levels. The analysis shows that Williams would not make it as a professional tennis player. Her strengths of serving and service return would be weaknesses in the men’s game. She would be almost 6 inches smaller than the average player. She just would not be at the races and not make it past college level.

Darts, bowls, archery etc. Yes. Contact sports no. In any case what is being proposed does not make sense. Women are allowed to compete is men’s games but men cannot compete is women’s? How is that justified. Worse we end up with just one competition for everyone? What you will end up with is women pushed out of many sports except for the odd exception. We separate on age, disability and even weight to create competitive scenarios. Are we changing those too?

[franck sauzee]

Even in golf where you'd think that women could have a chance of competing with men. The best player at the time Michelle Wie moved onto the PGA Tour. I think she was cut 7 tournaments out of 7 and by a lot of shots. It's not sexist to recognise when it comes to physicality there is a difference between men and women

[green day]

with all due respect to some of the posters on this thread, change the antiquated attitude (IMO) of males towards females in football.

Its not about sexist or antiquated attitudes - well, not in my case.

I have no issue at all with women competing with men - my post on page 1 related to the physicality aspects and potential lost income for professional female sportspeople.

If there was a "Messi" out there in womens football who could compete at the highest level then great - let it happen.

But in truth - same as the mens game - amazing players are one offs and their existence shouldnt be used as a way of developing any overarching strategies for womens sport in general.

As I said on page 1, there could be unintended consequences which hinder the development of womens football at the top level or reduce the money.

[Keith_M]

Very few women can kick a ball 60 yards?


You should see the throw-ins, most of them throw like a girl.

[ian cruise]

The Dutch FA have given permission for a woman to sign for a Dutch 4th tier team.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53649795

What’s everyone’s thoughts on this? I’ve no issues with it in that if they’re good enough then bash on.

Is there a possibility though that this could work against women when it comes to sport? If we use the best female players - say Alex Morgan - nobody would ever have heard of her if she had been playing in mixed teams due to the fact she’d be playing at such a low level. Likewise people like the Williams sisters in tennis - if they were playing in mixed tournaments they’d be struggling to get past the first round the vast majority of the time rather than winning grand slam after grand slam.

Whilst on the surface it looks like the right thing to do, could it do more harm than good for female sports?

I fear it would lead to less interest and investment in the women's game and you'd see only a few making it in to the mixed teams, leading to good talent giving up the game, similar to the scenario if you merged the Scottish, Northern Irish and English national sides, how many if our players would actually get capped, one maybe two?

What would probably help the women's game is more mixed training sessions, you see in a lot of sports that when males and females train together the gap in performance is reduced.

[MWHIBBIES]

Some men couldn’t do what’s in this video I played at a decent level and couldn’t do half of it. Some pings into the back of the net from distance too also some men couldn’t do it, a lot of nonsense getting spouted on here.

https://youtu.be/C3mEzh4wOj4

Just about anyone and anything can look good in a youtube video.

Its not sexist or nonsense to point out the physical advantage men have. Do you genuinely think a female could play 60 games a season at the intensity of the mens game?

[Hibrandenburg]

When I was a kid, there was a girl that used to play football with the boys (though I don't think she was allowed to play for the school team).

She was about 4'10 and was a nasty wee piece of work. Mess with her on the pitch and your gonads might be getting carried home in your school bag.

????? Bannerman?

[calumhibee1]

OK - so take this as an example.

Messi is the best player in the world (subjectively). He is 5ft 7in, 10 stone and at a serious physical disadvantage, yet plays against very physical opponents, and comes out on top 90% of the time.

Why would this be different for a female?

I have said this for years, it will happen one day that a female player breaks into, what we now call the 'men's game'.

Historically, a career in football has never been an option for females, this is changing and over generations i sincerely hope gender is not a barrier to playing football at the top level, and with all due respect to some of the posters on this thread, change the antiquated attitude (IMO) of males towards females in football.

Even the example you used - you’ve used the best player in history who is probably about the same height as the average female football player and I’d be willing to bet is significantly more powerful than any female footballer on the planet. That’s why it would be different for a female.

There’s nothing ‘antiquated’ about saying women will never be able to physically compete in men’s sports. Short of women becoming streets ahead technique wise - and I’m talking absolutely light years ahead of the best men technique wise - they’ll never be able to compete at all. It’s just the way it is.

Hopefully the focus remains on growing the women’s game rather than attempting to shoe horn them into the men’s game which would inevitably see players who are superstars now such as Alex Morgan, Carly Lloyd etc not even make it professional.

[Hibrandenburg]

I have said this for years, it will happen one day that a female player breaks into, what we now call the 'men's game'.

What's your thoughts on men breaking into women's football?

[Brightside]

No he doesn't.

Goes out for a throw in most weeks. :greengrin

[Brightside]

Its all about levels tbh. i could 100% put a womens team together that would hammer a Hibs.Net team. But there is not a chance that could ever happen at the top levels, and no one involved in womens football thinks otherwise.

[superfurryhibby]

That’s not the best example. It was a bounce game the day before an international and the women were told not to tackle. But the main point is correct. Physicality is important in football.

What about this example? Australia Women 0-Newcastle Jets (under 16's) 7.

There are lots of examples on line. Big defeats for top women's sides and international teams. Is it embarrassing? Not sure, but there are so many examples of this that you have to conclude that there is a clear pattern and that is that elite women's teams cannot compete against men, probably from mid teens onward. I would back a Hibs Net select v Hibs women on that basis.

The only way we will ever see a woman playing football v men at a high level will be on the basis of gender reassignment or some such malarkey. It is probably inevitable in our bizarre world.

[Keith_M]

????? Bannerman?


:agree:


Or 'Pele', as everybody called her.

[The Modfather]

Its all about levels tbh. i could 100% put a womens team together that would hammer a Hibs.Net team. But there is not a chance that could ever happen at the top levels, and no one involved in womens football thinks otherwise.

I can’t be the only one who would like to see this come to pass. Make it so Underscore :agree:

[Hibrandenburg]

:agree:


Or 'Pele', as everybody called her.

Couldn't remember her first name but everytime I see Jodie Foster it reminds me of her.

[Juice-Terry]

Should men's teams be *allowed* to sign/field male players that are physically weaker than some women? Although it may be foolish to do so, surely they should be *allowed* to do so? But if men's teams should be allowed to do so, why shouldn't they also be allowed (although, again, it may be foolish to do so) to sign/field women who may well be physically stronger than those men just mentioned?

[calumhibee1]

I can’t be the only one who would like to see this come to pass. Make it so Underscore :agree:

I was just about to say that. Can I put myself forward for Centre mid please? :greengrin

Obviously I don’t know what sort of level people on here are at football ability wise. But if there’s 11 guys on here that play at a good level of amateur football/juniors/EOS/Lowland league etc then I reckon they’d take a good few of Hibs ladies tbh.

Again though, it’s not really a comparison that needs to be made. The womens game just can’t compete with any decent level of the men’s game physically imo and needs to just be left to grow it’s own product.

[Green Cabbage 7]

Just about anyone and anything can look good in a youtube video.

Its not sexist or nonsense to point out the physical advantage men have. Do you genuinely think a female could play 60 games a season at the intensity of the mens game?


I didn’t say anything about being sexist, and also get the physical point of view, but whoever put, not being to able to hit a 60 yard pass is nonsense, by the looks of the video they can certainly ping a ball and also be as technically gifted as a man, but what I will say is that some woman could compete in the men’s game, as if it were the case the likes of iniesta, Messi wouldn’t have been able to compete against the likes of bigger physical players like Ferdinand, van dijk As they would be weaker players.

[Since90+2]

I was just about to say that. Can I put myself forward for Centre mid please? :greengrin

Obviously I don’t know what sort of level people on here are at football ability wise. But if there’s 11 guys on here that play at a good level of amateur football/juniors/EOS/Lowland league etc then I reckon they’d take a good few of Hibs ladies tbh.

Again though, it’s not really a comparison that needs to be made. The womens game just can’t compete with any decent level of the men’s game physically imo.

Amateurs I'm not sure but if you had 11 guys who are playing EOS or Lowland League level then absolutely they would beat Hibs Ladies.

[calumhibee1]

Amateurs I'm not sure but if you had 11 guys who are playing EOS or Lowland League level then absolutely they would beat Hibs Ladies.

Some of the better amateur teams are every bit as good as lowland league sides etc. Sure whereswallace on here ran a couple of very good amateur teams who would have most likely skelped a couple lowland league teams etc.

Some amateur teams are absolutely atrocious though :greengrin

[Andy74]

Its all about levels tbh. i could 100% put a womens team together that would hammer a Hibs.Net team. But there is not a chance that could ever happen at the top levels, and no one involved in womens football thinks otherwise.

You do have a tendency to get a bit carried away...

[superfurryhibby]

I was just about to say that. Can I put myself forward for Centre mid please? :greengrin

Obviously I don’t know what sort of level people on here are at football ability wise. But if there’s 11 guys on here that play at a good level of amateur football/juniors/EOS/Lowland league etc then I reckon they’d take a good few of Hibs ladies tbh.

Again though, it’s not really a comparison that needs to be made. The womens game just can’t compete with any decent level of the men’s game physically imo.

Try something like Hibs academy under 15's and you might have a game. As you say, it's not a comparison that really needs to made, but there are lots of examples of elite women's teams being absolutely smashed when playing against juvenile men's teams. Hibs women probably don't qualify as elite level, they would be wiped by any half decent male amateur side. If anyone wants to seriously dispute that can they post some links to games that support their assertion.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/australian-womens-national-team-lose-70-to-team-of-15yearold-boys-a3257266.html

[calumhibee1]

I fear it would lead to less interest and investment in the women's game and you'd see only a few making it in to the mixed teams, leading to good talent giving up the game, similar to the scenario if you merged the Scottish, Northern Irish and English national sides, how many if our players would actually get capped, one maybe two?

What would probably help the women's game is more mixed training sessions, you see in a lot of sports that when males and females train together the gap in performance is reduced.

Your last paragraph is an interesting point. Probably not something that would ever happen because the benefit to the men would be nil but it would be interesting to see how much training with men would bring the women’s game on. Even training with lowland league teams etc would probably be massively beneficial to them with how much faster paced it is.

[Keith_M]

Couldn't remember her first name but everytime I see Jodie Foster it reminds me of her.


Funny thing is, I actually couldn't remember her first name either.

She was always just 'Pele Bannerman'

:greengrin

[granty6_2]

Even the example you used - you’ve used the best player in history who is probably about the same height as the average female football player and I’d be willing to bet is significantly more powerful than any female footballer on the planet. That’s why it would be different for a female.

There’s nothing ‘antiquated’ about saying women will never be able to physically compete in men’s sports. Short of women becoming streets ahead technique wise - and I’m talking absolutely light years ahead of the best men technique wise - they’ll never be able to compete at all. It’s just the way it is.

Hopefully the focus remains on growing the women’s game rather than attempting to shoe horn them into the men’s game which would inevitably see players who are superstars now such as Alex Morgan, Carly Lloyd etc not even make it professional.

Wow - I respect that this is your opinion, however I find this incredible.

When i talk about antiquated opinions, i was referring to the use of phrases such as 'they’ll never be able to compete at all'. History tells us that things change. Achievements once thought impossible are now daily occurrences, to state that this will never happen i find so fixed and as previously stated antiquated.

You are basing your opinions on today's players. The opportunities for girls to play football over the next 15 - 20 years will increase dramatically and the impact of that is unknown, but i firmly believe there is a chance we will see a female at the top of the sport.

[HoboHarry]

Its all about levels tbh. i could 100% put a womens team together that would hammer a Hibs.Net team. But there is not a chance that could ever happen at the top levels, and no one involved in womens football thinks otherwise.
I'm not at all sure about that, years ago we had a ex-pat team in West Africa and we played the international women's team of that country who were heading to Cote d'Ivoire for a competition and we comfortably beat them 5-0. As far as I recall they only had two shots on goal (but that may have been down to us having a world class Scottish sweeper :greengrin)

[Brightside]

You do have a tendency to get a bit carried away...

I'll pencil you in as CH.

[calumhibee1]

Wow - I respect that this is your opinion, however I find this incredible.

When i talk about antiquated opinions, i was referring to the use of phrases such as 'they’ll never be able to compete at all'. History tells us that things change. Achievements once thought impossible are now daily occurrences, to state that this will never happen i find so fixed and as previously stated antiquated.

You are basing your opinions on today's players. The opportunities for girls to play football over the next 15 - 20 years will increase dramatically and the impact of that is unknown, but i firmly believe there is a chance we will see a female at the top of the sport.

We’ll agree to disagree. The ground they’d have to make up on males whilst males continue to improve would be for me firstly, far too vast, and secondly, biologically impossible.

[AugustaHibs]

Can guarantee that a lowland league side such as Bonnyrigg or even Cumbernauld etc in a competitive game would probably take about 10 off the Scotland woman’s national team

[Kaff]

Biggest concern would be for the majority of the women's game to suffer if the top 5% left to play in ostensibly a different game, they need their superstars to be at the top level of their own game and not huffing and puffing about in the 4th Division of a smaller national league set up.

It wouldn't happen under this scenario but the fear would end up being a quota system where each club had to field a certain number of females per match!

Leave the two with separate competitions and the women's game will continue to thrive, tbh under current pattern the women's game in England will financially dwarf the Scottish men's game before too long.
We have to get working on promoting our whole set up, male and female, so we don't get swamped anymore than we already are, get money into grass roots facilities with indoor winter pitches and we'll all enjoy more success

[Mon Dieu4]

I have played football with two Scottish Ladies Internationals before and while I would describe them as decent I have pals that don't even play for a team that were better

It's not a slight on the women but it's two different games IMO, dunno why people always strive for so called "equality" there are things women do better than men and vice versa, not sure why it's become so controversial to say it

[Since90+2]

I'll pencil you in as CH.

Genuine question, can you provide any instances when a ladies team have played a men's team and won the game?

[Hibrandenburg]

Funny thing is, I actually couldn't remember her first name either.

She was always just 'Pele Bannerman'

:greengrin

Pamela I think. She was like a wee terrier.

[Brightside]

Genuine question, can you provide any instances when a ladies team have played a men's team and won the game?

No.

[Andy74]

I'll pencil you in as CH.

If you provide the cigar.

[MWHIBBIES]

I didn’t say anything about being sexist, and also get the physical point of view, but whoever put, not being to able to hit a 60 yard pass is nonsense, by the looks of the video they can certainly ping a ball and also be as technically gifted as a man, but what I will say is that some woman could compete in the men’s game, as if it were the case the likes of iniesta, Messi wouldn’t have been able to compete against the likes of bigger physical players like Ferdinand, van dijk As they would be weaker players.

Its not just about physical stength, its about pace, acceleration, balance, stamina. Messi may lack strength but he is quicker over 10/15 yards than most so he rarely gets drawn into battles of strength.


I'll probably get slaughtered for this, but there is a mental aspect to it as well. In sports or other competitive enviroments where men have no physical advantage over women, they are still massively male dominated (like 95% at the top level). There are very, very few female chess champions, very few female esports players etc. I cant really say why that is but there are plenty people more educated on this topic than me who might be able to.

[Brightside]

Its not just about physical stength, its about pace, acceleration, balance, stamina. Messi may lack strength but he is quicker over 10/15 yards than most so he rarely gets drawn into battles of strength.


I'll probably get slaughtered for this, but there is a mental aspect to it as well. In sports or other competitive enviroments where men have no physical advantage over women, they are still massively male dominated (like 95% at the top level). There are very, very few female chess champions, very few female esports players etc. I cant really say why that is but there are plenty people more educated on this topic than me who might be able to.

More nerds are men?

[Kaff]

More nerds are men?

MW is right, darts, snooker and bowls are other examples.
Would be interested in reason for this as well?

Obviously politics and business were male dominated (still is numbers wise of course) but that has changed and still evolving, perhaps non physical sports/pastimes will be the same

[Sir David Gray]

If women who are too good for the women's game want to play in the men's game then I'm all for it.

However surely that also has to work the other way in that men who are not good enough for the men's game can play in a women's league?

[malcolm]

I think that women should have the choice, and then it comes down to whether or not they're good enough - that will include physically as well as technically. Like male players, if they're good technically but physically poor, then the standard that they can reach is limited.

I suppose the issue comes when men want to move in the other direction and play in the women's game - if we accept that women's football is generally played at a lower level (technically and physically) than the men's game then it's not inconceivable to think that men who drop out of men's football as they're not at that level, could then make a case for playing in the women's game. This would be massively damaging to women's football.

Rugby recently made a rule that trans women couldn't compete in women's rugby, citing the evidence of an increase in physical harm to women when up against someone who had lived as a male through adolescence - maybe the football associations could cite the same evidence to prevent men entering the women's game.

I’m surprised that the point, about the ostensibly biological ‘males’ during puberty then identifying as ‘female’ and entering female sports with the physical advantages that male hormones had left them with, has not been discussed more. In a simpler earlier world folk just had to get on with the hand that nature seemed to have dealt them. Today’s medical world may seek to intervene. You could argue that a newly ‘identified as female‘ person playing woman’s sport is getting a similar advantage to a drug cheat while the newly ‘identified as male’ person may feel that some male sport is performance is a de-enhancing experience.:wink:

There seems little reason to separate youngsters playing football on the basis of gender but some reason to do so later to support the aspirations of women to play at a high level. Yet today the aspirations of all regardless of any physical limitations are catered for to some degree. For example the Paralympics work on the basis of what seems to be an enormous number of categories of capability. Might we in time see such categorisation applicable more broadly across all sport making a capability not gender the appropriate classification :greengrin.

[1 8 7 5]

dreadful idea, and a no thanks from this hibby.

[Keith_M]

I think it's amazing that we're having such an in-depth, and occasionally a bit heated, debate about something that nobody is actually proposing... merging the men's and women's games.


Dontcha just love DotNet.

:greengrin

[Lunatic]

No problem with it. Picked on merit. Would show up the guys that think a good female player wouldn’t hack it a Sunday league team. But no one for a second is suggested they will get to play at a higher level.

The best female player on the planet couldn't hack it in Scottish Sunday league football.

And those same Sunday league players couldn't hack it in the Women's Super League.

Put the best famle player on the planet on the quagmire at Jack Kane, on a Sunday morning in December, in the rain, with Scottish referees and she'll be just as useless as every other skillfull player that tries to play football.....

Off topic a bit, but I'd rip up every grass pitch in the country and lay 4G (or whatever we're onto now) synthetic grass. Yes flat, nice turf is the best surface to play football on. No that's not an accurate description of Scotland's football pitches. It's no wonder we can't compete at the top level of world football. Messi would NEVER have made it in Scotland.

[blackpoolhibs]

If women who are too good for the women's game want to play in the men's game then I'm all for it.

However surely that also has to work the other way in that men who are not good enough for the men's game can play in a women's league?

Spot on, but i'm sure we will have someone come on here very soon telling us how it wouldnt be right or fair.

[Keith_M]

Spot on, but i'm sure we will have someone come on here very soon telling us how it wouldnt be right or fair.


A woman playing in a men's team is diversification and a symbol of the breaking of centuries of oppression.

A man playing in a woman's team would be restricting the opportunities of a long oppressed gender, a symbol of the patriarchy taking back control... and possibly a sign of a sexual deviant.


As long as we're all clear on that...

[blackpoolhibs]

A woman playing in a men's team is diversification and a symbol of the breaking of centuries of oppression.

A man playing in a woman's team would be restricting the opportunities of a long oppressed gender, a symbol of the patriarchy taking back control... and possibly a sign of a sexual deviant.


As long as we're all clear on that...

Ah right, so its all about being fair and equal, what about crap men, who cant find a level of football in the mens game, have they to have centuries of oppression until the ladies take pity on them and allow them into their teams?

[SquashedFrogg]

Ah right, so its all about being fair and equal, what about crap men, who cant find a level of football in the mens game, have they to have centuries of oppression until the ladies take pity on them and allow them into their teams?

Possibly, yes. Seems only fair.

[Keith_M]

Ah right, so its all about being fair and equal, what about crap men, who cant find a level of football in the mens game, have they to have centuries of oppression until the ladies take pity on them and allow them into their teams?


I think a couple of hundred years should about do it

:wink:

[blackpoolhibs]

I think a couple of hundred years should about do it

:wink:

:greengrin

[malcolm]

I think a couple of hundred years should about do it

:wink:

The difference between the performance between each is diminishing in particular stamina for example. With the rise in obesity and the prevalence of man boobs a more equal physical playing field be along sooner 😉

[Hibrandenburg]

If women who are too good for the women's game want to play in the men's game then I'm all for it.

However surely that also has to work the other way in that men who are not good enough for the men's game can play in a women's league?

That was a point I made badly earlier.

[J-C]

The majority of sports women will struggle due to physicality but football is a skilful game, now I have no doubt women could never compete at the top level but lower down I could see a few taking part.

[Green Cabbage 7]

Its not just about physical stength, its about pace, acceleration, balance, stamina. Messi may lack strength but he is quicker over 10/15 yards than most so he rarely gets drawn into battles of strength.


I'll probably get slaughtered for this, but there is a mental aspect to it as well. In sports or other competitive enviroments where men have no physical advantage over women, they are still massively male dominated (like 95% at the top level). There are very, very few female chess champions, very few female esports players etc. I cant really say why that is but there are plenty people more educated on this topic than me who might be able to.

Seen as you mentioned pace decided to check the 100 metres sprint record and was surprised that it is less than a second between them. Albeit the women’s one was in 1988.😂

[MWHIBBIES]

Seen as you mentioned pace decided to check the 100 metres sprint record and was surprised that it is less than a second between them. Albeit the women’s one was in 1988.😂

Thats pretty interesting. A second is a massive difference in the 100 meters, though. In the last Olympic final, every single man was at least half a second quicker than the fastest ever women.

[Scouse Hibee]

At least we wouldn’t have to worry about Tam washing the kit.

[PatHead]

Thats pretty interesting. A second is a massive difference in the 100 meters, though. In the last Olympic final, every single man was at least half a second quicker than the fastest ever women.

The ladies record would not even make it into the top 2000 male times.

Not to mention that Flo Jo was considered to be a drug cheat and retired just before mandatory testing.

[jacomo]

Its not just about physical stength, its about pace, acceleration, balance, stamina. Messi may lack strength but he is quicker over 10/15 yards than most so he rarely gets drawn into battles of strength.


I'll probably get slaughtered for this, but there is a mental aspect to it as well. In sports or other competitive enviroments where men have no physical advantage over women, they are still massively male dominated (like 95% at the top level). There are very, very few female chess champions, very few female esports players etc. I cant really say why that is but there are plenty people more educated on this topic than me who might be able to.


Messi has a low centre of gravity and is incredibly hard to knock off the ball. He may not bench press as much as others but there is - or was - something almost other worldly about his balance and the way he used his body.

Your second point is very interesting. Horse racing is another where women can compete with men and a slighter frame is an advantage, but winning female jockeys are the exception not the rule.