The Trans discussion

[matty_f]

Wondering what folks’ thoughts are on the trans rights versus women’s rights issue. This seems to be a total minefield and I’ve seen folk really struggle to discuss their thoughts on it without immediately being labelled as transphobic (JK Rowling and Graham Linehan being recent high profile examples).

I consider myself to be pretty open minded about stuff, I’m a supporter of equality for sexualities, race, sex etc and honestly don’t take care about these things.

However i also consider myself a feminist and a supporter of women’s rights, and there is undeniably a conflict when it comes to trans-women’s rights and women’s rights.

Sport is an obvious example - a trans-woman competing against women (I’m going to avoid using phrases like biologically born women or CIS women etc) has a significant advantage, even if they’re taking testosterone reducing treatments. Rugby’s governing body recently told that trans-women can’t compete in women’s rugby due to the heightened risk of injury to women. This seems like a sensible decision.

A trans-woman was stripped of a weightlifting world record in May last year, a decision which caused outrage in the trans community but surely to protect the rights of women who have trained and competed all their lives to have a level playing field.

Then there’s the issue of single sex spaces like changing rooms, toilets etc which again causes significant conflict. My opinion is that a woman’s changing room shouldn’t really be occupied by man (or at least people with penises).

This is obviously a thorny issue though, as a trans woman also has a right to a safe space - it’s not appropriate to ask them to share a man’s changing room or toilet either.

The big issue for me is that trans-women are dictating the rights and definitions of women, or to take a step back and put it more controversially - men are dictating this things.

I find it really hard to discuss without appearing transphobic, and I’m really not - i don’t have an issue with trans people though i don’t believe that their rights should supersede women’s rights though, and although the argument is trans-women’s rights are women’s rights, it’s fairly obvious that this isn’t true and can’t be true without trampling over women’s rights.

I have no idea how to unpick all this to sensitively understand it and have an inclusive opinion.

[Keith_M]

My personal opinion is that the phrase 'Trans Phobic' is used as a stick to beat anyone that doesn't 100% share the views of certain people.

For example, Germain Greer was called Trans Phobic because she dared to question the logic behind someone being called "Woman Of The Year", based solely on the fact that that person was famous and had undergone a sex change.

This is a woman that has dedicated a large part of her life to fighting injustices against people based on their gender and I find those (ongoing) attacks disgusting.

[G B Young]

As you say it appears to have become a minefield and is among the issues raising concern in relation to the changes to Scotland's hate crime laws, which some have argued could see folk like Rowling end up in the dock for expressing the opinions she has.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-53526843

[Peevemor]

It's a really difficult subject and one I hadn't given that much thought to until I read about the JK Rowling malarkey a few weeks ago.

One thing that strikes me is that the trans rights organisations and spokespeople don't seem to do anything to accommodate those who have difficulty getting their heads around the issue(s).

It's often a case of "your either for us or against us" without considering that there may be a middle ground with open minded, sympathetic people who may make the odd faux-pas when discussing these things.

[hibsbollah]

My personal opinion is that the phrase 'Trans Phobic' is used as a stick to beat anyone that doesn't 100% share the views of certain people.

For example, Germain Greer was called Trans Phobic because she dared to question the logic behind someone being called "Woman Of The Year", based solely on the fact that that person was famous and had undergone a sex change.

This is a woman that has dedicated a large part of her life to fighting injustices against people based on their gender and I find those (ongoing) attacks disgusting.

To be fair, Greer also weighed in with some hefty language about penises in a dress which were designed to shock. But that’s her style these days.

Like the OP I really don’t know what to think on the subject. It seems to have more currency as a topic in Scotland than down south for some reason, that Wings over Scotland guy has an ongoing feud with SNP policy and various online spats with trans activists and politicians. Certainly gets people worked up.

I have two friends, both self described feminists who regularly post from opposing points of view on social media. On on hand, there has been documented cases of sex offenders falsely claiming to be trans and using women and child only safe spaces like toilets and changing rooms to carry out abuse. This friend of mine has been an abuse victim in the past, she has a young daughter herself and is really passionate that genuinely safe spaces need to be maintained and that legislation designed to support the trans movement has resulted in risk. I have another female friend who is equally convinced that these cases are minuscule in number and just perpetuate the myth that the LGBT community are more likely to be abusers than straight people, which is an old trope based on homophobia. The feminist community seems to be tearing itself apart over the subject, probably reflecting increased polarisation in society generally.

For me, it’s just one of those debates where I can see both sides. Hopefully I go through life not judging people for the choices they make or what their identity is.

[Pretty Boy]

It's a minefield and I'm wary of getting into discussions about it because people I know who are usually quite calm and rational seem to get close to hysterical very quickly around this subject.

I've always believed gender is fluid and have no issue with people choosing to identify in whatever way they feel. I also can't imagine the pain of someone born in the wrong body and the confusion and stress that comes with that. Thankfully we seem to have far more understanding of these issues and conditions now and help is far more accessible although there is still work to be done.

Where I struggle is when people, on both sides of the argument, seem to confuse gender and biological sex. There are a couple of examples that I can recall recently. The first was when Sam Smith announced they were gender non binary. I have no issed with that but in an interview they declared they had always 'put on weight on places more associated with females and that got me thinking'. It's a pretty harmless assertion but unless they are claiming to be intersex then it's inherently nonsense and totally unrelated to gender identity. The second example is infinitely more serious. A trans woman, who still had a ***** and testicles, wished to have a bikini wax in a female only beauty salon. When the salon refused there was uproar and the 'you are transphobic' stuff was thrown about. My argument here would be that the lady working in the salon has the right not to have to directly touch a ***** and/or testicles or touch in the vicinity of that area if she does not wish to. Much like the shared public spaces this is an area in which protecting one person's rights can directly infringe anothers.

I recently suggested to someone that a '3rd space' publicly may be the answer, an area for trans women to have a safe space. I was immediately told I was a transphobe and that 'trans women are women'. When I suggested that a trans women who had not undergone full reassignment may make other women uncomfortable in an environment such as a changing room I was called a 'TERF'. I understand my solution is an imperfect one but I'm not entirely sure that the alternative is a better option.

The biggest issue is the stifling of any real debate around the subject. The treatment of the likes of JK Rowling ad Graham Lineham suggests many don't want to enter into any dialogue around the subject and are unwilling to entertain alternative viewpoints.

[CropleyWasGod]

To me, there are two main strands to the issue.

One, which Matty is describing, is the "philosophical" debate. There are many echoes of the history of the LGB movement here, for better and for worse. Battle lines are drawn, and no quarter is being given on either extreme. Those differences don't look like being settled for the foreseeable, and (just as in LGB rights) probably won't be until mainstream society becomes more comfortable with the issues. This kind of social change takes generations to evolve

The second part is the "personal" element. Again, just as with LGB people, acceptance and respect are key to the debate. For example, my pal has a trans son. For them, simple things such as "getting the pronoun right " are a sign of some sort of acceptance. Again, that's a work in progress for society.

For most of us who watch the philosophical debate in confusion, the best we can do for now is deal with the personal.

[The Modfather]

As someone who is pretty easy going and thinks folk should live however they want to, I often shy away from these kind of topics. As a white male, in my day to day life I rarely, if ever, come a cross any of the issues of the day be it race, gender, religion etc, so often find I’m well out of touch with the various “definitions” and “sub categories“ that come with these subjects as they are ever evolving (which is a good thing).

What I’m curious about is whether, at the most general level, there’s a a different attitude to certain parts of the subject from men and woman? I suspect, again generally and merely my ponderings than any actual evidence, women would be more accepting of gender identification than men. However when it comes to specifics and practicalities, men would be more accepting of a woman who chooses to live as a man in changing rooms and toilets etc, than the reverse. Or is the debate too nuanced and down to each individual to look at any differing attitudes between men and women.

[Peevemor]

It's a minefield and I'm wary of getting into discussions about it because people I know who are usually quite calm and rational seem to get close to hysterical very quickly around this subject.

I've always believed gender is fluid and have no issue with people choosing to identify in whatever way they feel. I also can't imagine the pain of someone born in the wrong body and the confusion and stress that comes with that. Thankfully we seem to have far more understanding of these issues and conditions now and help is far more accessible although there is still work to be done.

Where I struggle is when people, on both sides of the argument, seem to confuse gender and biological sex. There are a couple of examples that I can recall recently. The first was when Sam Smith announced they were gender non binary. I have no issed with that but in an interview they declared they had always 'put on weight on places more associated with females and that got me thinking'. It's a pretty harmless assertion but unless they are claiming to be intersex then it's inherently nonsense and totally unrelated to gender identity. The second example is infinitely more serious. A trans woman, who still had a ***** and testicles, wished to have a bikini wax in a female only beauty salon. When the salon refused there was uproar and the 'you are transphobic' stuff was thrown about. My argument here would be that the lady working in the salon has the right not to have to directly touch a ***** and/or testicles or touch in the vicinity of that area if she does not wish to. Much like the shared public spaces this is an area in which protecting one person's rights can directly infringe anothers.

I recently suggested to someone that a '3rd space' publicly may be the answer, an area for trans women to have a safe space. I was immediately told I was a transphobe and that 'trans women are women'. When I suggested that a trans women who had not undergone full reassignment may make other women uncomfortable in an environment such as a changing room I was called a 'TERF'. I understand my solution is an imperfect one but I'm not entirely sure that the alternative is a better option.

The biggest issue is the stifling of any real debate around the subject. The treatment of the likes of JK Rowling ad Graham Lineham suggests many don't want to enter into any dialogue around the subject and are unwilling to entertain alternative viewpoints.Exactly, differentiating between gender and biological sex is where the open minded bystander can easily slip up and be shouted down for it.

There seems to be a real "your either for us or against us" mentality.

[Keith_M]

For me, it’s just one of those debates where I can see both sides. Hopefully I go through life not judging people for the choices they make or what their identity is.


I think that should be our 'Thought Of The Day'


:top marks

[Rocky]

It's a really difficult subject and one I hadn't given that much thought to until I read about the JK Rowling malarkey a few weeks ago.

One thing that strikes me is that the trans rights organisations and spokespeople don't seem to do anything to accommodate those who have difficulty getting their heads around the issue(s).

It's often a case of "your either for us or against us" without considering that there may be a middle ground with open minded, sympathetic people who may make the odd faux-pas when discussing these things.

I'd agree with that, and I'm afraid after a long time trying to understand the complexities I've now given up. There's far too much "I'm not hear to explain it to you, do your own research" goes on. I'm hoping this thread proves to be illuminating as I really would like to be supportive but right now I don't know how to be.

[G B Young]

Exactly, differentiating between gender and biological sex is where the open minded bystander can easily slip up and be shouted down for it.

There seems to be a real "your either for us or against us" mentality.

Indeed. And how many people actually know, or understand, that this is at the heart of much of the furore around the issue? It's not an easy concept to absorb unless you read up on it, but rather than accept that this is a complex issue for many to comprehend, an instinctively hostile 'how dare you not feel the same about this as I do' pitchfork mentality seems to prevail.

One area relating to gender dysphoria which I think needs to be very carefully monitored is when it comes to young children, where behaviour or interests more commonly associated with the opposite gender is very common but not necessarily related to gender identity issues in any way.

[matty_f]

I think it’s also worth recognising that a lot of the time when these debates are seen over social media, it tends to be trans-women on the offensive at women, in many cases telling them they’re TERFs or that their opinions/rights are invalid.

This is another area where i struggle with it, because if you take a binary view on it - what you have there is “men” imposing their views and rights over women, and if you reflect on the discussion on here about the phrase “white privilege” there is also “male privilege” and from a woman’s perspective this has not extended to men not only redefining what a woman is but also telling women that they’re wrong to question this.

JK Rowling’s controversy involved her challenging the term “people who menstruate” being used, rather than “women”. I can fully understand why women would be angry about that.

[H18 SFR]

Just commenting based on the OP’s comment regarding women’s rights.

Back in 2015 I signed up to attend a course ‘Empowering Young Women’ if I recall correctly. It was being held at UWS in Ayr - they were just providing the lecture theatre as an external let.

I really hoped it would empower me in order to empower my female pupils. I turned up and quickly realised I was the only male there which didn’t bother me in the slightest. Into the lecture theatre we went and I was instantly set upon verbally by two young females (who I later found out were students at UWS). Why is a guy there blah blah blah stuff. It basically turned into a right rammy, absolute madness.

Since been to LGBT training etc and they always seem to be quite highly strung events.

[Mon Dieu4]

It's a total minefield as people have rightly said, first things first when it comes to sport then it's a definite no from me, testosterone for years before you take blockers, bone density, bigger lungs etc mean it's not a level playing field it's akin to taking on a drug cheat and probably more severe even than that analogy, imagine training for years and years to reach the top of your sport only to get destroyed by someone who has more than an unfair advantage, what would be the point?.

Like everyone else, I'm an easy going guy, as long as you are hurting anyone then knock yourself and do what you like.

I am uncomfortable with the way things seem to be going with children, if you want to wear a dress etc then again knock yourself out but when it comes to puberty blockers etc then that's a huge no no from me, you should need to wait until you are a legal adult to make decisions that will effect your life to that degree(I know about the counter argument of it's harder to reverse etc when you are older)

As for same spaces as "biological females" like Bollah I see both sides, do I want people to be treated the same? Yes, do I want my niece somewhere where she could see a set of balls, no

I've read some of the JK Rowling stuff and can't see why they are all getting so up tight about it, she is standing up for woman's rights(obviously not the right "women")

I don't want anyone to feel left out and steps should be taken to address any issues but we are talking about around 1 or 2% of society here, think as ever it's the vocal minority on social media doing all the shouting and the vast majority of people just want to get on with their lives with zero hassle and not have to worry about what letters or names to call folk, tell me your name and I will call you it but please don't act like changing pronouns etc daily is normal and people will be able to keep up with it

[Smartie]

It's quite a horrible subject and offering an opinion on it seems to be "lose/lose" whichever way you go.

I see both sides, I don't see how there is any room for compromise or compatibility and I really hope I never find myself in a situation where I have to offer an opinion and jump down off the fence.

[Scouse Hibee]

Just another ****** fad that has people up in arms about another manufactured load of bull****. Not having any of it and if that makes me adinosaur then so be it.

[Rocky]

Just another ****** fad that has people up in arms about another manufactured load of bull****. Not having any of it and if that makes me adinosaur then so be it.

It does aye

[EAZY-ME]

Just another ****** fad that has people up in arms about another manufactured load of bull****. Not having any of it and if that makes me adinosaur then so be it.

Here here!!!.. sick of this lets be offended at anything culture

[Hibrandenburg]

There will have to be a compromise at some point, it will probably be the acceptance that there is more than 2 genders but that will probably be a mixed bag.

[Colr]

Just another ****** fad that has people up in arms about another manufactured load of bull****. Not having any of it and if that makes me adinosaur then so be it.

I’ve worked with a small number of trans -women. I think if tou treat them with the respect you would give to anyone they are just like anyone else. In fact, they seem a bit relieved as they probably get a ton of **** from people ramming their opinion on them.

Some of the activists I’ve heard (and their SWP hangers on) seem to be very aggressive towards women though.

[Keith_M]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that my personal view is that there are only two genders, as is common in almost all mammals; Male and Female, for the purpose of reproduction.

In addition, there are a miniscule number of people that were born with a genuinely confused physical makeup, e.g. people born with both male and female reproductive organs.

There are then a tiny number of people that, for whatever reason, feel unable to accept the gender they were born with and wish to change it. There are probably underlying psychological reasons, and it must be an incredibly difficult situation to be in. I would say that I actually have sympathy for them, though that brings the risk of being labelled 'patronizing'.

What I will never accept, though, is that people can just make up new genders (for the reasons given above) and expect the rest of us to go along with it, just because they feel it's the only acceptable course of action.

Or that a person that is physically one gender can just decide to 'identify' as the other gender. To me, that is basically equivalent to a white person deciding to 'self-identify' as black...something that most people would consider totally preposterous.



Usually at this point some people start throwing out insults, so feel free, if it makes you feel better ;-)

[HappyAsHellas]

For a very small group of people they seem to have a very loud voice.

[Scouse Hibee]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that my personal view is that there are only two genders, as is common in almost all mammals; Male and Female, for the purpose of reproduction.

In addition, there are a miniscule number of people that were born with a genuinely confused physical makeup, e.g. people born with both male and female reproductive organs.

There are then a tiny number of people that, for whatever reason, feel unable to accept the gender they were born with and wish to change it. There are probably underlying psychological reasons, and it must be an incredibly difficult situation to be in. I would say that I actually have sympathy for them, though that brings the risk of being labelled 'patronizing'.

What I will never accept, though, is that people can just make up new genders (for the reasons given above) and expect the rest of us to go along with it, just because they feel it's the only acceptable course of action.

Or that a person that is physically one gender can just decide to 'identify' as the other gender. To me, that is basically equivalent to a white person deciding to 'self-identify' as black...something that most people would consider totally preposterous.



Usually at this point some people start throwing out insults, so feel free, if it makes you feel better ;-)

👍

[Scouse Hibee]

It does aye

Good.

[Peevemor]

What shouldnt be forgotten is that it's normal for people to be and act surprised when presented with something they're not at all used to.

I drank in the Northern after work for years. For a period there was 2 brothers who would come in 3-4 times per week. One of them was preparing to have a sex change and half the time would come in dressed as a woman with wig, make-up, high heels, the works.

I have to admit, the first time I noticed I probably did a double take worthy of any sitcom.

I didn't know them so, apart from saying hello, had almost no conversation with them, but it made me realise how ill equipped I was to do so.

Was he/she a he or a she being the most obvious question, or did it change depending how he/she was dressed?

[Keith_M]

What shouldnt be forgotten is that it's normal for people to be and act surprised when presented with something they're not at all used to.

I drank in the Northern after work for years. For a period there was 2 brothers who would come in 3-4 times per week. One of them was preparing to have a sex change and half the time would come in dressed as a woman with wig, make-up, high heels, the works.

I have to admit, the first time I noticed I probably did a double take worthy of any sitcom.

I didn't know them so, apart from saying hello, had almost no conversation with them, but it made me realise how ill equipped I was to do so.

Was he/she a he or a she being the most obvious question, or did it change depending how he/she was dressed?


There's a guy in my office that dresses in women's clothes.

TBH, I found it a bit awkward at first but, but as you said, you eventually get used to something that you're not familiar with, so it's no longer any big deal.

It probably took him a lot longer to accept me as I am than the other way round. Anyone that's ever met me can totally sympathise with the poor guy and having to work with me every day :-)

[CropleyWasGod]

Just another ****** fad that has people up in arms about another manufactured load of bull****. Not having any of it and if that makes me adinosaur then so be it.

Which bit do you consider the fad? The debate or the concept of changing gender?

[SHODAN]

Trans women are women.

[Scouse Hibee]

Which bit do you consider the fad? The debate or the concept of changing gender?

The campaign, gender war, debate, and folk finding something else to be outraged at. There are only two genders, male & female the rest is fabricated pish in my opinion.

[lapsedhibee]

The campaign, gender war, debate, and folk finding something else to be outraged at. There are only two genders, male & female the rest is fabricated pish in my opinion.

You seem a bit outraged yourself!

[heretoday]

The campaign, gender war, debate, and folk finding something else to be outraged at. There are only two genders, male & female the rest is fabricated pish in my opinion.

Hear Hear! All these folk are up their own backsides half the time - no offence.

[Scouse Hibee]

You seem a bit outraged yourself!

At the suggestion of there being more than two genders, I’m not outraged just flabbergasted.

[neil7908]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that my personal view is that there are only two genders, as is common in almost all mammals; Male and Female, for the purpose of reproduction.

In addition, there are a miniscule number of people that were born with a genuinely confused physical makeup, e.g. people born with both male and female reproductive organs.

There are then a tiny number of people that, for whatever reason, feel unable to accept the gender they were born with and wish to change it. There are probably underlying psychological reasons, and it must be an incredibly difficult situation to be in. I would say that I actually have sympathy for them, though that brings the risk of being labelled 'patronizing'.

What I will never accept, though, is that people can just make up new genders (for the reasons given above) and expect the rest of us to go along with it, just because they feel it's the only acceptable course of action.

Or that a person that is physically one gender can just decide to 'identify' as the other gender. To me, that is basically equivalent to a white person deciding to 'self-identify' as black...something that most people would consider totally preposterous.



Usually at this point some people start throwing out insults, so feel free, if it makes you feel better ;-)

One thing I find interesting though is that it's an area where a lot of "anti trans" comments come from women.

Tbh I'd have no issue with someone born a woman calling themselves a man, I don't feel that's a threat to me and if they gain some degree of peace and fulfillment from this then I'd raise no concerns.

I do think for women it's a different issue though. I can completely understand why a women would be upset at Caitlin Jenner winning woman of the year. In essence women are trying to carve out safe spaces for themselves and are finding this challenged.

I think the comparison to race is an interesting one as well. Rachel Dolezal was vilified for essentially doing something similar with race and I saw very little defence of her, even though having read her story I have quite a lot of sympathy with her.

I think in all the above though you have to acknowledge that individuals are getting major, irreversible surgery done to themselves as a fad (as one poster alluded to). Gender Dysphoria is in the DSM5 - it's a established, medically diagnosable condition. The vast majority of trans people just want to get on with their lives and be treated with respect, and sadly they are on the receiving end of some of the work discrimination and abuse in society.

Slight change of topic but for anyone who hasn't seen the show I'd recommend Transparent. It's very modern, liberal minded so not for everyone but I found it really fascinating and a brilliantly made show exploring these issues, plus similar identity matters like race, religion, class etc.

[CropleyWasGod]

The campaign, gender war, debate, and folk finding something else to be outraged at. There are only two genders, male & female the rest is fabricated pish in my opinion.

Fabricated by whom, and to what end?

[lapsedhibee]

At the suggestion of there being more than two genders, I’m not outraged just flabbergasted.

Pretty sure that most European languages have always embraced three genders - masculine, feminine and neuter. Perhaps whittling things down to only two is the exceptionalist path? :dunno:

[Scouse Hibee]

Fabricated by whom, and to what end?

What do you mean by whom? By who ever is daft enough to go along with a belief that there is more than two genders. There are two genders, male and female, The rest have been created/fabricated to suit or describe different medical conditions or desired identities and give them an identity that is a manufactured identity. People who disagree with these different genders are labelled as the ones in the wrong, absolute total madness in my opinion.

[CropleyWasGod]

Pretty sure that most European languages have always embraced three genders - masculine, feminine and neuter. Perhaps whittling things down to only two is the exceptionalist path? :dunno:

Four in English. M, F, neuter and common.

[neil7908]

What do you mean by whom? By who ever is daft enough to go along with a belief that there is more than two genders. There are two genders, male and female, The rest have been created/fabricated to suit or describe different medical conditions or desired identities and give them an identity that is a manufactured identity. People who disagree with these different genders are labelled as the ones in the wrong, absolute total madness in my opinion.

I don't think the issue is about saying there are more than 2 genders. Trans women as stating they are women, not another category.

Also, the whole 2 gender thing is complicated and there are many cases in nature where this isn't the case:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex

[Scouse Hibee]

Pretty sure that most European languages have always embraced three genders - masculine, feminine and neuter. Perhaps whittling things down to only two is the exceptionalist path? :dunno:

Not for me mate, there are male and female, I won’t recognise any others as I don’t believe they exist.

[lapsedhibee]

Four in English. M, F, neuter and common.

"In Luganda, there are ten genders: people, long objects, animals, miscellaneous objects, large objects and liquids, small objects, languages, pejoratives, infinitives, and mass nouns."

**** knows what toilet doors must look like there.

[CropleyWasGod]

"In Luganda, there are ten genders: people, long objects, animals, miscellaneous objects, large objects and liquids, small objects, languages, pejoratives, infinitives, and mass nouns."

**** knows what toilet doors must look like there.

Quite fanciable after a few beers, tbh.

[lapsedhibee]

Also, the whole 2 gender thing is complicated and there are many cases in nature where this isn't the case:


:agree: The more you dig in to the possible combinations of chromosomes and genes, the harder it is to defend a pure binary division into male and female.

Me, I'm not making up my mind until I hear what Ann Widdecombe has to say on the matter.

[matty_f]

Trans women are women.

Surely that's only the case if you re-define what a woman is?

I totally get the principle and the ideology behind that statement - it is one of acceptance, after all - and who wouldn't want that, right?

Except it's significantly more complex than that, hence the discussion around it. There was a case of a trans-woman, convicted of rape (against women) who was sent to a women's prison: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life and there are recorded instances of abusers who are trans-women staying in women's refuge centres for women who are escaping abuse.

Simply saying that a trans-woman is a woman imposes on women's rights. There are lesbians who are currently labelled TERFs and abused for the 'crime' of not being attracted to lesbian trans-women - it's considered transphobic for a lesbian to not want to sleep with someone with a *****.

Saying trans-women's rights are women's rights is fundamentally flawed - if you put yourself in a woman's shoes, they are brought up in a society which still significantly advantages males, to then be told (by people who were once men or are men transitioning) that you have to accept that your definition of what a woman is, is no longer valid, and that you should have single-sex spaces removed from you is a huge infringement on your rights.

I should stress that I'm not implying that trans-women are predatory, it's important to have the discussion without implying that they are, in the same way that when homosexuality became more prominent in society it was wrong to link homosexuals with paedophiles - there are predators amonst the trans society because there are predators across all sections of society, so I want to be clear that while I've used a couple of examples above, I'm in no way implying that people are more at risk from transgender people.

[Hibrandenburg]

What do you mean by whom? By who ever is daft enough to go along with a belief that there is more than two genders. There are two genders, male and female, The rest have been created/fabricated to suit or describe different medical conditions or desired identities and give them an identity that is a manufactured identity. People who disagree with these different genders are labelled as the ones in the wrong, absolute total madness in my opinion.

I think your logic is flawed Scouse, that's like saying any combination of black and white is manufactured and the colour grey is fabricated. Grey is a colour in its own right and there are many shades of grey as there are of black and white, but grey will always consist of both black and white.

[Scouse Hibee]

I think your logic is flawed Scouse, that's like saying any combination of black and white is manufactured and the colour grey is fabricated. Grey is a colour in its own right and there are many shades of grey as there are of black and white.

I’ll bear that in mind the next time I get paint mixed 😉

My logic may be flawed, my reasoning may be wrong, my beliefs may be considered out dated and some may think I make no sense or am not willing or indeed able to understand. I can accept all that, my opinion won’t change.

[Mon Dieu4]

Surely that's only the case if you re-define what a woman is?

I totally get the principle and the ideology behind that statement - it is one of acceptance, after all - and who wouldn't want that, right?

Except it's significantly more complex than that, hence the discussion around it. There was a case of a trans-woman, convicted of rape (against women) who was sent to a women's prison: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life and there are recorded instances of abusers who are trans-women staying in women's refuge centres for women who are escaping abuse.

Simply saying that a trans-woman is a woman imposes on women's rights. There are lesbians who are currently labelled TERFs and abused for the 'crime' of not being attracted to lesbian trans-women - it's considered transphobic for a lesbian to not want to sleep with someone with a *****.

Saying trans-women's rights are women's rights is fundamentally flawed - if you put yourself in a woman's shoes, they are brought up in a society which still significantly advantages males, to then be told (by people who were once men or are men transitioning) that you have to accept that your definition of what a woman is, is no longer valid, and that you should have single-sex spaces removed from you is a huge infringement on your rights.

I should stress that I'm not implying that trans-women are predatory, it's important to have the discussion without implying that they are, in the same way that when homosexuality became more prominent in society it was wrong to link homosexuals with paedophiles - there are predators amonst the trans society because there are predators across all sections of society, so I want to be clear that while I've used a couple of examples above, I'm in no way implying that people are more at risk from transgender people.

Another point is people trying to speak for everyone in a group, I know a trans woman at work and she describes herself clearly as "trans woman" and maybe because it's not an online shouting contest she will openly chat to you about it all no matter how silly your question sounds, it's like when people try to speak for all black people, all Hibs fans etc

[Pretty Boy]

Fabricated by whom, and to what end?

The Hijra on the Indian subcontinent have been recognised as a 'third gender' for centuries so it was certainly fabricated a long time ago.

Fwiw I think we are back to the argument about biological sex v gender again. Even then the binary definition is flawed as intersex people exist. It's worth noting neither Oxford English Dictionary or, probably more notably, the WHO classify gender and sex as the same thing.

[CropleyWasGod]

I’ll bear that in mind the next time I get paint mixed 😉

My logic may be flawed, my reasoning may be wrong, my beliefs may be considered out dated and some may think I make no sense or am not willing or indeed able to understand. I can accept all that, my opinion won’t change.

Devil's Advocate question, one that is not meant to be critical of your opinion..


How do you think would you feel and react if someone close to you said that they wanted to change gender, or be known as gender-fluid?

[Scouse Hibee]

Devil's Advocate question, one that is not meant to be critical of your opinion..


How do you think would you feel and react if someone close to you said that they wanted to change gender, or be known as gender-fluid?

My own feelings on the matter are indeed my own. I completely understand that those that choose to change gender want to do so to make themselves feel happy with what/ who they are or want to be. For that reason I would accept the choice they have made as I respect that their views are their own even though they will never be mine.

[neil7908]

Surely that's only the case if you re-define what a woman is?

I totally get the principle and the ideology behind that statement - it is one of acceptance, after all - and who wouldn't want that, right?

Except it's significantly more complex than that, hence the discussion around it. There was a case of a trans-woman, convicted of rape (against women) who was sent to a women's prison: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/oct/11/transgender-prisoner-who-sexually-assaulted-inmates-jailed-for-life and there are recorded instances of abusers who are trans-women staying in women's refuge centres for women who are escaping abuse.

Simply saying that a trans-woman is a woman imposes on women's rights. There are lesbians who are currently labelled TERFs and abused for the 'crime' of not being attracted to lesbian trans-women - it's considered transphobic for a lesbian to not want to sleep with someone with a *****.

Saying trans-women's rights are women's rights is fundamentally flawed - if you put yourself in a woman's shoes, they are brought up in a society which still significantly advantages males, to then be told (by people who were once men or are men transitioning) that you have to accept that your definition of what a woman is, is no longer valid, and that you should have single-sex spaces removed from you is a huge infringement on your rights.

I should stress that I'm not implying that trans-women are predatory, it's important to have the discussion without implying that they are, in the same way that when homosexuality became more prominent in society it was wrong to link homosexuals with paedophiles - there are predators amonst the trans society because there are predators across all sections of society, so I want to be clear that while I've used a couple of examples above, I'm in no way implying that people are more at risk from transgender people.

Brilliant post.

[Keith_M]

Pretty sure that most European languages have always embraced three genders - masculine, feminine and neuter. Perhaps whittling things down to only two is the exceptionalist path? :dunno:



As other's have said, there are actually languages with more than three.

It's merely a grammatical construct, though, and is not an attempt to define a person's gender in any way.

For instance, if you're referring to a person but the gender of that person is irrelevant, in that particular context, you can use the word 'they'... even though the person you're referring to is either male or female. The word 'they' is considered 'neutral', but using it does not mean you're saying the person you're referring to is neither male nor female.

[mjhibby]

Exactly, differentiating between gender and biological sex is where the open minded bystander can easily slip up and be shouted down for it.

There seems to be a real "your either for us or against us" mentality.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion which is why the virtue signalling and name calling is so annoying. What folk want to be or do with their lives is up to them. As long as people aren’t forced by either law or societal pressure to conform with the current trend I’m not in the least bit bothered. I do feel for women who aren’t comfortable with former males now identifying as females entering their domain. Surely their needs need to be looked after.

[Bristolhibby]

Not for me mate, there are male and female, I won’t recognise any others as I don’t believe they exist.

My sister in law works on the urology ward at Great Ormand Street hospital.

She cares for kids born intersex. Kids with a vagina and a testicle.

No pen is but a testicle inside their body.

You are wrong. Medically these kids are intersex. Born presenting one gender but having the internal bits of the other.

Sadly lots of them have trouble coping with life in the wrong body and the suicide rate for them is very high.

Try a bit of empathy.

J

[Scouse Hibee]

My sister in law works on the urology ward at Great Ormand Street hospital.

She cares for kids born intersex. Kids with a vagina and a testicle.

No pen is but a testicle inside their body.

You are wrong. Medically these kids are intersex. Born presenting one gender but having the internal bits of the other.

Sadly lots of them have trouble coping with life in the wrong body and the suicide rate for them is very high.

Try a bit of empathy.

J

Yes sadly females have been known to be born with a single testicle. still a female however. The stress and anxiety this causes is very sad but still doesn’t alter my opinion on the matter.

[Future17]

Yes sadly females have been known to be born with a single testicle. still a female however. The stress and anxiety this causes is very sad but still doesn’t alter my opinion on the matter.

Not arguing with you (as I don't know enough about this subject) but what factors would lead you to say a person with both male and female organs is female (or male for that matter)?

[Scouse Hibee]

Not arguing with you (as I don't know enough about this subject) but what factors would lead you to say a person with both male and female organs is female (or male for that matter)?

I honestly don’t know enough about it and only made my reference as I have read of a female being born with a testicle. Having alternate organs externally and internally is something I need to read about first as referenced above as intersex. Every day is a school day as they say.

[Future17]

I honestly don’t know enough about it and only made my reference as I have read of a female being born with a testicle. Having alternate organs externally and internally is something I need to read about first as referenced above as intersex. Every day is a school day as they say.

Fair play. I'm the same. This thread makes for interesting reading.

[lapsedhibee]

Favourite music clip by a transgender singer (warning - a Leonard Cohen cover) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MDlMdu2gjw)

Recorded before she was transgender.

[speedy_gonzales]

I honestly don’t know enough about it and only made my reference as I have read of a female being born with a testicle. Having alternate organs externally and internally is something I need to read about first as referenced above as intersex. Every day is a school day as they say.

The "intersex" result is actually more common than many people would think.
I'm not in to biology or anatomy, but I was told by a surgeon that all embryos start with ovaries, then, if there's sufficient levels of a specific hormone, the ovaries will descend through muscle layers in the abdomen and become testes.
This is what leads to a lot of men getting abdominal hernias if the muscle doesn't knit back together properly.
There are many people out there that physically present as male and female (if going by reproductive organ only), mentally and psychologically I don't doubt there are many more.

[7 Up]

For a very small group of people they seem to have a very loud voice.

There has certainly been a lot printed about transgender people in the papers recently, but how much of it has actually been written by trans people? Overwhelmingly it has been non-trans people writing about this topic. Personally I couldn't name a single trans politician, journalist or public figure of any sort. It's not really a fair debate when only one side has a voice.

I'm very suspicious when such a small group of people is subjected to this sort of sustained and intense scrutiny. It smells a bit like a moral panic.

[Skol]

I honestly don’t know enough about it and only made my reference as I have read of a female being born with a testicle. Having alternate organs externally and internally is something I need to read about first as referenced above as intersex. Every day is a school day as they say.

What about Caster Semenya?

[Bristolhibby]

There has certainly been a lot printed about transgender people in the papers recently, but how much of it has actually been written by trans people? Overwhelmingly it has been non-trans people writing about this topic. Personally I couldn't name a single trans politician, journalist or public figure of any sort. It's not really a fair debate when only one side has a voice.

I'm very suspicious when such a small group of people is subjected to this sort of sustained and intense scrutiny. It smells a bit like a moral panic.

Our Liberal Democrat prospective MP in Chippenham (who has run twice and been beaten twice) is Trans.

Helen Belcher is her name.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/helen-belcher-ppc

[7 Up]

Our Liberal Democrat prospective MP in Chippenham (who has run twice and been beaten twice) is Trans.

Helen Belcher is her name.

https://www.libdems.org.uk/helen-belcher-ppc

Cheers for the info and good luck to her. It strengthens my view that the power and scope of trans activism has been somewhat exaggerated when one of the most notable trans politicians is a Lib Dem who has twice failed to win a seat.

[hibsbollah]

Cheers for the info and good luck to her. It strengthens my view that the power and scope of trans activism has been somewhat exaggerated when one of the most notable trans politicians is a Lib Dem who has twice failed to win a seat.

It may just be that anti trans prejudice has nothing to do with it and the Lib Dem’s record of being irrelevant 95% of the time and when they do briefly grasp power they enact right wing legislation as enthusiastically as any Tory, is the reason for her lack of success. I wouldn’t vote for them if Ms Tranny Trans from Transylvania was the candidate.

[CropleyWasGod]

Cheers for the info and good luck to her. It strengthens my view that the power and scope of trans activism has been somewhat exaggerated when one of the most notable trans politicians is a Lib Dem who has twice failed to win a seat.

I'd doubt that they were standing on a platform of trans activism, though. In a parallel to openly gay politicians, who generally don't stand as "gay", but as representatives of their party.

[7 Up]

It may just be that anti trans prejudice has nothing to do with it and the Lib Dem’s record of being irrelevant 95% of the time and when they do briefly grasp power they enact right wing legislation as enthusiastically as any Tory, is the reason for her lack of success. I wouldn’t vote for them if Ms Tranny Trans from Transylvania was the candidate.


I'd doubt that they were standing on a platform of trans activism, though. In a parallel to openly gay politicians, who generally don't stand as "gay", but as representatives of their party.

Yeah I get that, I didn't mean to suggest her not getting elected was because of transphobia. Only that trans people are a tiny minority and that the number of trans people in public life is virtually zero, which makes the scale of media attention devoted to this topic seem a bit disproportionate.

[Speedy]

Can understand why people find it a confusing topic.

I'm not quite sure I know what being a man or woman feels like, other than conforming to gender stereotypes.

[Bristolhibby]

It may just be that anti trans prejudice has nothing to do with it and the Lib Dem’s record of being irrelevant 95% of the time and when they do briefly grasp power they enact right wing legislation as enthusiastically as any Tory, is the reason for her lack of success. I wouldn’t vote for them if Ms Tranny Trans from Transylvania was the candidate.

TBF my constituency (Chippenham) it’s Lib Dems or Tory. No other option.

J

[500miles]

There is a confusion between sex and gender. The existence of intersex people is also thrown in to blur lines, but that's a bit of a strawman, as they can still be considered within the sex binary. For example, there are XX is generally female and and XY is generally male, but if the SRY gene is activated on the X of an XY chromosome couplet, typical female sexual development results, and it is clear female sexual development. There are trans rights groups that will use this as evidence of a sex spectrum, but even with a high end estimate of 2.2% of people having an entirely undefined intersex condition, that's not a spectrum, it's an outlier to a binary.

Gender is different, it's a collection of social constructs based on generalities and stereotypes relating to sex. This is where we wander into a space more compatible to belief than science, and we have decided to protect people's sincerely held beliefs in our society. In my opinion, this is where trans rights exist, beside the protection of people's faith. The same protections that should stop skinheads throbbers wrapping bacon around the doors to Mosques. However, in the same way we don't form laws on the 10 commandments or Sharia law, we shouldn't be basing law on what appears to be another minority belief system. We should be basing law on fact.

There is also no debate about whether trans people exist, they obviously do. The nub seems to be what is real, sex - binary, or gender - a spectrum. Certainly, despite being told to look at the "latest science " I've not seen anything that classifies humans as anything other than sexually dimorphic, with a very small minority of outliers which can still be classified within the binary.

The question seems to always go back to toilets and changing areas. While a determined predator would probably not pay much mind to a sign on a wall, it would appear that somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of toilet/ changing room assaults against women occur in unisex facilities, so opportunism is a factor.

When it comes to Trans Women are Women or Trans Men are Men, my attitude is "Well, kind of " but that's a crass simplification to the point of denialism. I look at people who purposely misgender others the same way as I look at people that continually shouted about Muhammed Ali being Cassius Clay. It takes nothing to respect his wishes on that, I don't need to start praying to Mecca. However, I do think there are is a fringe of the TWAW movement that would have us on the prayer mats, to make a comparison. You will believe what we believe, without question or condition.

There could be a rational discussion of where we draw the lines of practical application, but you've got homophobes and the hard right amplifying one absolutist solution, and a sort of self indulgent hard left almost spritualist position amplifying the opposite absolutist point, and the people in the middle are getting frustrated and just picking a side. That's not a good position for trans people right now, because the binary still seems to be the most scientifically justified and the simplest to understand, and I'm concerned we'll see a reactionary growth in transphobia and old fashioned homophobia by proxy.

[speedy_gonzales]

There is a confusion between sex and gender. The existence of intersex people is also thrown in to blur lines, but that's a bit of a strawman, as they can still be considered within the sex binary. For example, there are XX is generally female and and XY is generally male, but if the SRY gene is activated on the X of an XY chromosome couplet, typical female sexual development results, and it is clear female sexual development. There are trans rights groups that will use this as evidence of a sex spectrum, but even with a high end estimate of 2.2% of people having an entirely undefined intersex condition, that's not a spectrum, it's an outlier to a binary.

Gender is different, it's a collection of social constructs based on generalities and stereotypes relating to sex. This is where we wander into a space more compatible to belief than science, and we have decided to protect people's sincerely held beliefs in our society. In my opinion, this is where trans rights exist, beside the protection of people's faith. The same protections that should stop skinheads throbbers wrapping bacon around the doors to Mosques. However, in the same way we don't form laws on the 10 commandments or Sharia law, we shouldn't be basing law on what appears to be another minority belief system. We should be basing law on fact.

There is also no debate about whether trans people exist, they obviously do. The nub seems to be what is real, sex - binary, or gender - a spectrum. Certainly, despite being told to look at the "latest science " I've not seen anything that classifies humans as anything other than sexually dimorphic, with a very small minority of outliers which can still be classified within the binary.

The question seems to always go back to toilets and changing areas. While a determined predator would probably not pay much mind to a sign on a wall, it would appear that somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of toilet/ changing room assaults against women occur in unisex facilities, so opportunism is a factor.

When it comes to Trans Women are Women or Trans Men are Men, my attitude is "Well, kind of " but that's a crass simplification to the point of denialism. I look at people who purposely misgender others the same way as I look at people that continually shouted about Muhammed Ali being Cassius Clay. It takes nothing to respect his wishes on that, I don't need to start praying to Mecca. However, I do think there are is a fringe of the TWAW movement that would have us on the prayer mats, to make a comparison. You will believe what we believe, without question or condition.

There could be a rational discussion of where we draw the lines of practical application, but you've got homophobes and the hard right amplifying one absolutist solution, and a sort of self indulgent hard left almost spritualist position amplifying the opposite absolutist point, and the people in the middle are getting frustrated and just picking a side. That's not a good position for trans people right now, because the binary still seems to be the most scientifically justified and the simplest to understand, and I'm concerned we'll see a reactionary growth in transphobia and old fashioned homophobia by proxy.

I think I'm in agreement with you, "I think" because I've had 6 pints and Hibs are currently top of the league.

The majority of us know the difference between gender and sex.

Whilst the majority of "us" relate to binary, we all know there are those that lie outwith and between.

Whilst you are correct that predators will predate regardless of signage, it should be remembered that the vast majority of us don't leave the house, pick a gender, with the sole purpose of attacking others.

Hopefully, if we can negate the threat, we can all live and allow others to live as they so wish.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

The campaign, gender war, debate, and folk finding something else to be outraged at. There are only two genders, male & female the rest is fabricated pish in my opinion.

I see it simpler than that. People are either good or bad. Those are the only two options that matter. The rest of it is just stuff.

[hibsbollah]

TBF my constituency (Chippenham) it’s Lib Dems or Tory. No other option.

J

Riot.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Transgenderism is a relatively new concept, and I think many of us, myself included, struggle to understand because it's so beyond our experience. However, the same was once true about homosexuality, but now most people accept is as a perfectly valid way of life. From my own point of view, I just try not to offer very strong opinions on things I know very little about. If someone believes they are of the wrong gender, I am not qualified to judge them; if they wish to be addressed by a different gender pronoun, I would do so out of common decency. If a person is doing no harm to others, they should be allowed to get on with it. Whether he/she is actually a man or a woman at the end of the re-alignment process, when the DNA in every cell in their body says otherwise, well, again I'm not qualified to know.

Ultimately, we should just try to be compassionate and understanding. It must be a hell of a struggle for anyone to endure, and of course it would have a massive impact on their family. I think we are always scared by things we don't understand, and sometimes fear turns into hostility and prejudice, which is certainly true of a contemporary phenomenon like transgenderism. We need to listen to those going through the process in order to gain better understanding. It's early days with this, and over time, as scientific knowledge of the issue advances, I for one will be in a better position to hold a valid opinion. In the meantime the most we can do is plead for tolerance and understanding.

[Hibernia&Alba]

There is a confusion between sex and gender. The existence of intersex people is also thrown in to blur lines, but that's a bit of a strawman, as they can still be considered within the sex binary. For example, there are XX is generally female and and XY is generally male, but if the SRY gene is activated on the X of an XY chromosome couplet, typical female sexual development results, and it is clear female sexual development. There are trans rights groups that will use this as evidence of a sex spectrum, but even with a high end estimate of 2.2% of people having an entirely undefined intersex condition, that's not a spectrum, it's an outlier to a binary.

Gender is different, it's a collection of social constructs based on generalities and stereotypes relating to sex. This is where we wander into a space more compatible to belief than science, and we have decided to protect people's sincerely held beliefs in our society. In my opinion, this is where trans rights exist, beside the protection of people's faith. The same protections that should stop skinheads throbbers wrapping bacon around the doors to Mosques. However, in the same way we don't form laws on the 10 commandments or Sharia law, we shouldn't be basing law on what appears to be another minority belief system. We should be basing law on fact.

There is also no debate about whether trans people exist, they obviously do. The nub seems to be what is real, sex - binary, or gender - a spectrum. Certainly, despite being told to look at the "latest science " I've not seen anything that classifies humans as anything other than sexually dimorphic, with a very small minority of outliers which can still be classified within the binary.

The question seems to always go back to toilets and changing areas. While a determined predator would probably not pay much mind to a sign on a wall, it would appear that somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of toilet/ changing room assaults against women occur in unisex facilities, so opportunism is a factor.

When it comes to Trans Women are Women or Trans Men are Men, my attitude is "Well, kind of " but that's a crass simplification to the point of denialism. I look at people who purposely misgender others the same way as I look at people that continually shouted about Muhammed Ali being Cassius Clay. It takes nothing to respect his wishes on that, I don't need to start praying to Mecca. However, I do think there are is a fringe of the TWAW movement that would have us on the prayer mats, to make a comparison. You will believe what we believe, without question or condition.

There could be a rational discussion of where we draw the lines of practical application, but you've got homophobes and the hard right amplifying one absolutist solution, and a sort of self indulgent hard left almost spritualist position amplifying the opposite absolutist point, and the people in the middle are getting frustrated and just picking a side. That's not a good position for trans people right now, because the binary still seems to be the most scientifically justified and the simplest to understand, and I'm concerned we'll see a reactionary growth in transphobia and old fashioned homophobia by proxy.


You've read Simone de Beauvoir's 'The Second Sex'. A masterpiece.

[Hibrandenburg]

Transgenderism is a relatively new concept, and I think many of us, myself included, struggle to understand because it's so beyond our experience. However, the same was once true about homosexuality, but now most people accept is as a perfectly valid way of life. From my own point of view, I just try not to offer very strong opinions on things I know very little about. If someone believes they are of the wrong gender, I am not qualified to judge them; if they wish to be addressed by a different gender pronoun, I would do so out of common decency. If a person is doing no harm to others, they should be allowed to get on with it. Whether he/she is actually a man or a woman at the end of the re-alignment process, when the DNA in every cell in their body says otherwise, well, again I'm not qualified to know.

Ultimately, we should just try to be compassionate and understanding. It must be a hell of a struggle for anyone to endure, and of course it would have a massive impact on their family. I think we are always scared by things we don't understand, and sometimes fear turns into hostility and prejudice, which is certainly true of a contemporary phenomenon like transgenderism. We need to listen to those going through the process in order to gain better understanding. It's early days with this, and over time, as scientific knowledge of the issue advances, I for one will be in a better position to hold a valid opinion. In the meantime the most we can do is plead for tolerance and understanding.

Homosexuality a new concept? Maybe directly after the scandal in the Garden of Eden.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Homosexuality a new concept? Maybe directly after the scandal in the Garden of Eden.

The prejudice and lack of understanding. After all, it was only decriminalised in this country in 1967. It's just a couple of generations since gay men were considered criminals. We've come a long way in a short time; transgenderism faces the same kind of prejudice now.

[matty_f]

There is a confusion between sex and gender. The existence of intersex people is also thrown in to blur lines, but that's a bit of a strawman, as they can still be considered within the sex binary. For example, there are XX is generally female and and XY is generally male, but if the SRY gene is activated on the X of an XY chromosome couplet, typical female sexual development results, and it is clear female sexual development. There are trans rights groups that will use this as evidence of a sex spectrum, but even with a high end estimate of 2.2% of people having an entirely undefined intersex condition, that's not a spectrum, it's an outlier to a binary.

Gender is different, it's a collection of social constructs based on generalities and stereotypes relating to sex. This is where we wander into a space more compatible to belief than science, and we have decided to protect people's sincerely held beliefs in our society. In my opinion, this is where trans rights exist, beside the protection of people's faith. The same protections that should stop skinheads throbbers wrapping bacon around the doors to Mosques. However, in the same way we don't form laws on the 10 commandments or Sharia law, we shouldn't be basing law on what appears to be another minority belief system. We should be basing law on fact.

There is also no debate about whether trans people exist, they obviously do. The nub seems to be what is real, sex - binary, or gender - a spectrum. Certainly, despite being told to look at the "latest science " I've not seen anything that classifies humans as anything other than sexually dimorphic, with a very small minority of outliers which can still be classified within the binary.

The question seems to always go back to toilets and changing areas. While a determined predator would probably not pay much mind to a sign on a wall, it would appear that somewhere between 80 and 90 percent of toilet/ changing room assaults against women occur in unisex facilities, so opportunism is a factor.

When it comes to Trans Women are Women or Trans Men are Men, my attitude is "Well, kind of " but that's a crass simplification to the point of denialism. I look at people who purposely misgender others the same way as I look at people that continually shouted about Muhammed Ali being Cassius Clay. It takes nothing to respect his wishes on that, I don't need to start praying to Mecca. However, I do think there are is a fringe of the TWAW movement that would have us on the prayer mats, to make a comparison. You will believe what we believe, without question or condition.

There could be a rational discussion of where we draw the lines of practical application, but you've got homophobes and the hard right amplifying one absolutist solution, and a sort of self indulgent hard left almost spritualist position amplifying the opposite absolutist point, and the people in the middle are getting frustrated and just picking a side. That's not a good position for trans people right now, because the binary still seems to be the most scientifically justified and the simplest to understand, and I'm concerned we'll see a reactionary growth in transphobia and old fashioned homophobia by proxy.

Thanks for taking the time to post that, it’s a good summary of a difficult topic.

[hibsbollah]

The prejudice and lack of understanding. After all, it was only decriminalised in this country in 1967. It's just a couple of generations since gay men were considered criminals. We've come a long way in a short time; transgenderism faces the same kind of prejudice now.

It was 1980 in Scotland, shamefully 13 years after England and Wales.

[500miles]

You've read Simone de Beauvoir's 'The Second Sex'. A masterpiece.

Does it have pictures or fart jokes?

[500miles]

The prejudice and lack of understanding. After all, it was only decriminalised in this country in 1967. It's just a couple of generations since gay men were considered criminals. We've come a long way in a short time; transgenderism faces the same kind of prejudice now.

I mean, I don't know if transness has in itself has been expressly illegal so recently, but certainly im sure homophobic laws have been appropriated to persecute trans people. However, I'm not overly keen on comparison between sexuality and gender. Sexuality is materially demonstrable sexual attraction, whereas gender requires belief in a set of norms and personal feelings. It's not difficult to extend that line of thinking to the idea that homosexuality is a belief, rather than an innate biological drive.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I mean, I don't know if transness has in itself has been expressly illegal so recently, but certainly im sure homophobic laws have been appropriated to persecute trans people. However, I'm not overly keen on comparison between sexuality and gender. Sexuality is materially demonstrable sexual attraction, whereas gender requires belief in a set of norms and personal feelings. It's not difficult to extend that line of thinking to the idea that homosexuality is a belief, rather than an innate biological drive.

Surely you're not insinuating homosexuality is a choice? Apologies if I've misconstrued that sentence.

[500miles]

Surely you're not insinuating homosexuality is a choice? Apologies if I've misconstrued that sentence.

No, I was suggesting that making comparisons between gender and sexuality isn't always helpful because gender makes more sense as a belief based identity. Sexuality, when crudely boiled down, is what gets your rocks off and is identifiably biologically driven.

[Bishop Hibee]

Having read through most of the posts on this thread, there isn’t much, if anything, on the erasure, as many women see it, of the word ‘woman’ itself. Instances of phrases such as “people with a cervix” and claims that the use of the word ‘women’ is discriminatory in certain circumstances are worrying. Unsurprisingly, such phrases are often made by men telling women what they should think.

Interesting from Irvine Welsh on Twitter:

“I’m pro trans rights.

I fail to see how they are advanced by a man (re)designating what constitutes a woman.

I’m pro women’s rights.

I fail to see how they are advanced by a man (re)designating what constitutes a woman.

There’s no ‘crusading’ here.“

[Hibernia&Alba]

Having read through most of the posts on this thread, there isn’t much, if anything, on the erasure, as many women see it, of the word ‘woman’ itself. Instances of phrases such as “people with a cervix” and claims that the use of the word ‘women’ is discriminatory in certain circumstances are worrying. Unsurprisingly, such phrases are often made by men telling women what they should think.

Interesting from Irvine Welsh on Twitter:

“I’m pro trans rights.

I fail to see how they are advanced by a man (re)designating what constitutes a woman.

I’m pro women’s rights.

I fail to see how they are advanced by a man (re)designating what constitutes a woman.

There’s no ‘crusading’ here.“

I would agree.

[Pretty Boy]

Having read through most of the posts on this thread, there isn’t much, if anything, on the erasure, as many women see it, of the word ‘woman’ itself. Instances of phrases such as “people with a cervix” and claims that the use of the word ‘women’ is discriminatory in certain circumstances are worrying. Unsurprisingly, such phrases are often made by men telling women what they should think.

Interesting from Irvine Welsh on Twitter:

“I’m pro trans rights.

I fail to see how they are advanced by a man (re)designating what constitutes a woman.

I’m pro women’s rights.

I fail to see how they are advanced by a man (re)designating what constitutes a woman.

There’s no ‘crusading’ here.“

I thought the below in response to the inevitable replies was quite powerful:

'Guys, stop trying to use my intersex variation as an attempt to create a biological proof for transgender. It won't work! All intersex people are biologically male or biologically female and I'm hugely offended my life threatening condition is being abused in this way.'

[JeMeSouviens]

It was 1980 in Scotland, shamefully 13 years after England and Wales.

Incredible it was so recent really. I wonder why there was such a delay given the westminster parliament was making laws in both jurisdictions at the time?

[Kato]

Incredible it was so recent really. I wonder why there was such a delay given the westminster parliament was making laws in both jurisdictions at the time?

The wee frees from vague recollection.