Gary MacKay - Racist?

[Leitherhibs]

It would appear Gary MacKay subjected Kevin Harper to racist abuse in an Edinburgh Derby in 1996, which of course he strongly denies, think most of us have probably seen the evidence in question and are able to make our own minds up having heard KH's account.

Hearing Kevin Harper today on Scottish football podcast, it occurred to me with all the revisionism that's going on in the world, removing statues, making changes to our language etc. - Which btw I totally support - Why on earth is Gary McKay still asked for his opinion on football related matters? And how is he still allowed to be an SFA registered agent?

[Diclonius]

I would hope if someone were to bring it up again in the public eye questions would be asked of him this time around.

[Leitherhibs]

I would hope if someone were to bring it up again in the public eye questions would be asked of him this time around.

The BBC have a duty given they've reported it, to follow up on it and take action against MacKay, he's been an occasional contributor on their programmes..

[Mon Dieu4]

It was clear as day what he did, I would be more forgiving if he admitted it and said that he'd changed his ways on the back of it but the fact he still denied it means I still despise the guy

[weecounty hibby]

Is there a link to the clip of him doing this. I don't think I've ever seen it. Not that I'm doubting Kevin at all

[Pretty Boy]

The TV footage is crystal clear.
I'd have more respect for him if next time he is asked he just admitted what happened, said he was wrong, apologised and said he had changed.

The denials are almost as bad as the act itself now.

[Roxyhibee]

The TV footage is crystal clear.
I'd have more respect for him if next time he is asked he just admitted what happened, said he was wrong, apologised and said he had changed.

The denials are almost as bad as the act itself now.

Spot on. An apology and how his attitudes along with millions of other people since then have changed.

Then take his medals away.

[lord bunberry]

There’s also a video of the hearts team on the bus coming back from Hampden racially abusing Jose Quitongo. I’m sure medals is involved in that as well.

edit hear it is 45 minutes in

https://youtu.be/DCPDvFMngdc
https://youtu.be/DCPDvFMngdc

[MWHIBBIES]

Why do Hibs still allow him in the stadium? He racially abused one of our employees.

[Billy Whizz]

Why do Hibs still allow him in the stadium? He racially abused one of our employees.

Probably because it hasn’t been proven

[G15 Hibs]

Why do Hibs still allow him in the stadium? He racially abused one of our employees.

Because its the cosy world of Scottish football

[MWHIBBIES]

Probably because it hasn’t been proven

That is true but at the least an investigation should've been done by the club, same as if a fan done it, and he should've been banned. Impossible to do it as a player but certainly as a agent or punter or whatever he is now.

[CentreLine]

There’s also a video of the hearts team on the bus coming back from Hampden racially abusing Jose Quitongo. I’m sure medals is involved in that as well.

edit hear it is 45 minutes in

https://youtu.be/DCPDvFMngdc
https://youtu.be/DCPDvFMngdc

A lot of well known faces on that video IIRC including John Robertson sadly

In fairness to him he can be heard saying “I’m no singing that” about a previous song and not obviously singing about Quitongo. I have a lot of time for John Robertson

[hibsbollah]

Probably because it hasn’t been proven

Somebody had the footage posted on here last time it was brought up. It was clear as day, he ran past Harper making that rounded mouth shape you have to make to do a monkey noise, while eyeballing him. And you could hear the hearts fans doing it simultaneously, so it’s no coincidence.

Like mondieu says, I’d have no problem if mackay just owned up and put it down to it being a different era or whatever... but no.

[Jamesie]

That is true but at the least an investigation should've been done by the club, same as if a fan done it, and he should've been banned. Impossible to do it as a player but certainly as a agent or punter or whatever he is now.

As a 16 year old I remember speaking to Dougie Cromb in the club shop shortly after this. Dougie could be very candid at times and he said to me that he had wished Harper had come to him rather than the press and he would have escalated the matter by way of a complaint to the SFA. I’m not entirely sure why Harper going to the press prohibited Dougie from doing so, and as a 16 year old I didn’t really have the nous to challenge him on that point.

[iwasthere1972]

It would appear Gary MacKay subjected Kevin Harper to racist abuse in an Edinburgh Derby in 1996, which of course he strongly denies, think most of us have probably seen the evidence in question and are able to make our own minds up having heard KH's account.

Hearing Kevin Harper today on Scottish football podcast, it occurred to me with all the revisionism that's going on in the world, removing statues, making changes to our language etc. - Which btw I totally support - Why on earth is Gary McKay still asked for his opinion on football related matters? And how is he still allowed to be an SFA registered agent?

As there's no statue of him he should be made to give up all his medals. They should then all go into the melting pot with all proceeds going to a charity.

Oh. How many medals are we talking about. Will we need a big melting pot?

[Stuart93]

There’s also a video of the hearts team on the bus coming back from Hampden racially abusing Jose Quitongo. I’m sure medals is involved in that as well.

edit hear it is 45 minutes in

https://youtu.be/DCPDvFMngdc
https://youtu.be/DCPDvFMngdc

Jesus.

That’s really bad.

[AltheHibby]

Jesus.

That’s really bad.

Absolutely (censored) vile is how I would describe it.

[CockneyRebel]

As there's no statue of him he should be made to give up all his medals. They should then all go into the melting pot with all proceeds going to a charity.

Oh. How many medals are we talking about. Will we need a big melting pot?


You'd need one big enough to take the world and all it's got (for the old yuns)

[Hillsidehibby]

I have no time whatsoever for Medals but I do believe he has admitted doing this in his book and said he was ashamed by it.

I was told this by a Jambo mate and have not read the book so cannot confirm.

[Malthibby]

As there's no statue of him he should be made to give up all his medals. They should then all go into the melting pot with all proceeds going to a charity.

Oh. How many medals are we talking about. Will we need a big melting pot?


You'd need one big enough to take the world and all it's got (for the old yuns)


And get multi-coloured people by the score...verra good.:agree:

[Hibiza]

I'd just leave it. We all know the mentality of them.

[tamig]

Because its the cosy world of Scottish football

Have no fear. It’ll be all change tomorrow once hertz win their case.

[calumhibee1]

There’s also a video of the hearts team on the bus coming back from Hampden racially abusing Jose Quitongo. I’m sure medals is involved in that as well.

edit hear it is 45 minutes in

https://youtu.be/DCPDvFMngdc
https://youtu.be/DCPDvFMngdc

Wow. I remember seeing that ages ago but I didn’t remember it being quite so ‘bad’ - if there’s such a thing as a scale of racist I suppose. I thought it was a bit more mild than that but that’s horrendous.

[EI255]

It would appear Gary MacKay subjected Kevin Harper to racist abuse in an Edinburgh Derby in 1996, which of course he strongly denies, think most of us have probably seen the evidence in question and are able to make our own minds up having heard KH's account.

Hearing Kevin Harper today on Scottish football podcast, it occurred to me with all the revisionism that's going on in the world, removing statues, making changes to our language etc. - Which btw I totally support - Why on earth is Gary McKay still asked for his opinion on football related matters? And how is he still allowed to be an SFA registered agent?The guy is absolutely thick. No excuse for racism though.

No medals and no brain matter. And huge ears.

[Leitherhibs]

I have no time whatsoever for Medals but I do believe he has admitted doing this in his book and said he was ashamed by it.

I was told this by a Jambo mate and have not read the book so cannot confirm.

No, he still denies it in the media for sure. He’s an ‘ambassador’ for show racism the red card according to his wiki. Guys a narrow minded bigot.

[CockneyRebel]

[QUOTE=gloryhunter;6243217]


And get multi-coloured people by the score...verra good.:agree:


Being pedantic - Blue Mink lyrics were "and get coffee coloured people by the score".

[Brummie_Hibs]

I'd just leave it. We all know the mentality of them.
Lest we forget


https://youtu.be/CIbHx_NUDq4

[hibsbollah]

Lest we forget


https://youtu.be/CIbHx_NUDq4

Further down that page some good footage of those lovely Celtic fans booing Walters every touch in his debut. Surely not?

[JimBHibees]

As a 16 year old I remember speaking to Dougie Cromb in the club shop shortly after this. Dougie could be very candid at times and he said to me that he had wished Harper had come to him rather than the press and he would have escalated the matter by way of a complaint to the SFA. I’m not entirely sure why Harper going to the press prohibited Dougie from doing so, and as a 16 year old I didn’t really have the nous to challenge him on that point.

Complete cop out by Hibs I am afraid. Really poor given the age of the player being abused not that that should be any excuse. The clubs the press the players union and the authorities all let Kevin down very badly. It was clear as day on the tv and think Graham Spiers may have commented on it as he was on the show but nothing done. Much like sectarianism sweep sweep sweep no bottle or moral leadership.

[LaMotta]

Somebody had the footage posted on here last time it was brought up. It was clear as day, he ran past Harper making that rounded mouth shape you have to make to do a monkey noise, while eyeballing him. And you could hear the hearts fans doing it simultaneously, so it’s no coincidence.

Like mondieu says, I’d have no problem if mackay just owned up and put it down to it being a different era or whatever... but no.


Here's the incident here:

https://twitter.com/Barlosthecat/status/1286392659163189252?s=19

[Andy74]

Not sure why there is a question mark in the title.

[KingPat4]

Despicable piece of ****. But there were racists amongst our own support. When we played Blackburn at ER in what was Alan Shearer's debut, the Rovers right back was getting it all flung at him by a couple of brain dead rat bags. I went to the nearest poils and was told to **** off and watch the game. :fuming:

[The 90+2]

Here's the incident here:

https://twitter.com/Barlosthecat/status/1286392659163189252?s=19

Dirty hertz *******.

[SouthMoroccoStu]

Here's the incident here:

https://twitter.com/Barlosthecat/status/1286392659163189252?s=19

Great find

yeah he does a lot of work with the "show racism the red card" stuff now, but this footage is very damning

[Toldo123]

Great find

yeah he does a lot of work with the "show racism the red card" stuff now, but this footage is very damningDisgusting behaviour

Sent from my F5321 using Tapatalk

[LaMotta]

Great find

yeah he does a lot of work with the "show racism the red card" stuff now, but this footage is very damning

He was lucky twitter etc wasnt about in 1996.

[Orchard_Hibs]

Racist *******, we should really make a point of not letting him near the ground ever again, we are a club for all and will not tolerate this **** from anyone.

[CentreLine]

Okay he took it a stage further but I’d bet if every last one of us looks at themselves in the mirror, can we honestly say we have never uttered or done anything that we now know to be racist?
The thing about Twitter/social media Is it is so easy to whip up a witch hunt amongst people who so want to be better than someone else. Yes maybe Garry McKay and those players and officials on that coach (didn’t I see Mr Deans on board too) needs to take a long hard look at themselves but so do we all at times. It’s what lessons people learn that matter. No need for pitchforks and torches.

[mcohibs]

Okay he took it a stage further but I’d bet if every last one of us looks at themselves in the mirror, can we honestly say we have never uttered or done anything that we now know to be racist?
The thing about Twitter/social media Is it is so easy to whip up a witch hunt amongst people who so want to be better than someone else. Yes maybe Garry McKay and those players and officials on that coach (didn’t I see Mr Deans on board too) needs to take a long hard look at themselves but so do we all at times. It’s what lessons people learn that matter. No need for pitchforks and torches.

Not good enough. Racism is despicable and until people are publicly hammered and punished for it then it will continue to bubble away under the surface of society. People 'taking a look at themselves' isn't good enough.

Don't buy the 'it never used to be racist' crap either. Racism has always been racism. The club should have backed Harper over this at the time. It was wrong then and it is wrong now

[Orchard_Hibs]

Not good enough. Racism is despicable and until people are publicly hammered and punished for it then it will continue to bubble away under the surface of society. People 'taking a look at themselves' isn't good enough.

Don't buy the 'it never used to be racist' crap either. Racism has always been racism. The club should have backed Harper over this at the time. It was wrong then and it is wrong now

Well said 👏

Racism has been allowed to continue by people doing nothing to stop or punish it, if your not part of the solution your part of the problem.

[calumhibee1]

Not good enough. Racism is despicable and until people are publicly hammered and punished for it then it will continue to bubble away under the surface of society. People 'taking a look at themselves' isn't good enough.

Don't buy the 'it never used to be racist' crap either. Racism has always been racism. The club should have backed Harper over this at the time. It was wrong then and it is wrong now

:agree:

[Baader]

Haven't seen that since the night of that match. It was obvious then and it's obvious now. MacKay is as much a racist as he is a non medal holder. Monkey noises. Despicable.

[CentreLine]

Not good enough. Racism is despicable and until people are publicly hammered and punished for it then it will continue to bubble away under the surface of society. People 'taking a look at themselves' isn't good enough.

Don't buy the 'it never used to be racist' crap either. Racism has always been racism. The club should have backed Harper over this at the time. It was wrong then and it is wrong now

Fair enough, if a little dismissive of the ability of people to change. What exactly do you suggest we do with every person that started a game with “eeny meeny, miny, mo” up to and including the 1970’s. How much of a hammering should they receive?
I did not suggest the things we said and did in the past were not racist but I do suggest they were not necessarily recognised as such.
Not condoning what McKay did by any means, in fact I condemn it unconditionally but I think there is a danger of the moral high ground becoming overcrowded with angels who Pretend they never let a racist phrase escape their lips.
You must have missed my comment about learning lessons if you think it’s not good enough.

[BILLYHIBS]

Here's the incident here:

https://twitter.com/Barlosthecat/status/1286392659163189252?s=19

Disappointing-not the sort of behaviour you would expect from someone who has worked for ‘show racism the red card.’

Hypocrite!

Not a nice person

I am sure I read recently he now works as a carer so perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt now that he has turned his life around

An apology to Kevin Harper would be a start.

[CentreLine]

Disappointing-not the sort of behaviour you would expect from someone who has worked for ‘show racism the red card.’

Hypocrite!

Not a nice person

I am sure I read recently he now works as a carer so perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt now that he has turned his life around

An apology to Kevin Harper would be a start.

Absolutely 100%

[G B Young]

Despicable piece of ****. But there were racists amongst our own support. When we played Blackburn at ER in what was Alan Shearer's debut, the Rovers right back was getting it all flung at him by a couple of brain dead rat bags. I went to the nearest poils and was told to **** off and watch the game. :fuming:

The banana throwing treatment Mark Walters received from Hearts and Celtic fans was by far the most high profile and digusting, but as you say back then racism towards black players was much more tolerated (partly due to the fact, I think, that in those days it was far rarer to see black players in Scotland). I recall getting into an argument with some fellow Hibs fans at Tannadice who were making monkey noises at Raphael Meade.

[calumhibee1]

Disappointing-not the sort of behaviour you would expect from someone who has worked for ‘show racism the red card.’

Hypocrite!

Not a nice person

I am sure I read recently he now works as a carer so perhaps we should give him the benefit of the doubt now that he has turned his life around

An apology to Kevin Harper would be a start.

No benefit of the doubt from me. The guy is an absolute ****ing rat of a man.

[G B Young]

Not good enough. Racism is despicable and until people are publicly hammered and punished for it then it will continue to bubble away under the surface of society. People 'taking a look at themselves' isn't good enough.

Don't buy the 'it never used to be racist' crap either. Racism has always been racism. The club should have backed Harper over this at the time. It was wrong then and it is wrong now

Racism may always have been racism as you say, but it's public awareness of it that has (thankfully) changed to a large extent. I'd be surprised if any of the Hearts players and staff on that bus would do the same now (although bearing in mind that footballers are often not the brightest I might be wrong). That is progress of sorts.

Incidentally, in relation to your avatar, is 'Franco' Begbie not the archetypal purveyor of casual misogyny, racism and violence? :wink:

[Andy74]

Fair enough, if a little dismissive of the ability of people to change. What exactly do you suggest we do with every person that started a game with “eeny meeny, miny, mo” up to and including the 1970’s. How much of a hammering should they receive?
I did not suggest the things we said and did in the past were not racist but I do suggest they were not necessarily recognised as such.
Not condoning what McKay did by any means, in fact I condemn it unconditionally but I think there is a danger of the moral high ground becoming overcrowded with angels who Pretend they never let a racist phrase escape their lips.
You must have missed my comment about learning lessons if you think it’s not good enough.

So yes, I’ve no doubt I’ve used some phrases in my life that have links to racism. The one you’ve used as an example I’m sure most kids had no idea of the connotations.

That’s a bit different to using a racist slur or gesture directly to another person.

I’d suggest I’m not in the minority here in saying that’s not something I’ve ever done.

[mixumatosis]

So yes, I’ve no doubt I’ve used some phrases in my life that have links to racism. The one you’ve used as an example I’m sure most kids had no idea of the connotations.

That’s a bit different to using a racist slur or gesture directly to another person.

I’d suggest I’m not in the minority here in saying that’s not something I’ve ever done.

There's a clear difference between using a word or phrase that happens to have unpleasant connotations that you were unaware of, and using overtly racist language or gestures, just because you don't believe you'll be censured for doing so.

[Kato]

There's a clear difference between using a word or phrase that happens to have unpleasant connotations that you were unaware of, and using overtly racist language or gestures, just because you don't believe you'll be censured for doing so.

Especially joining with thousands of others making those chants in a public arena with TV cameras there in front of your fellow professionals, which is what Mackay did. Not exactly eeny minny mo.

[CentreLine]

There's a clear difference between using a word or phrase that happens to have unpleasant connotations that you were unaware of, and using overtly racist language or gestures, just because you don't believe you'll be censured for doing so.

Not that big a difference but yes there is a difference. Both are racist and need to be recognised as unacceptable. Thankfully the rhyme is a thing of the past, as are lazy descriptions for some corner shops and carry out shops.
The point I am making is we should recognise our own shortcomings in having used these terms before we reach for the pitchforks and flaming torches. It is so easy these days to race for the moral high ground because we didnae mean it but he did. The truth is we were brought up in a racist society. Thankfully things seem to be changing and the improvement in awareness, mentioned by a previous poster, is what has made that possible, not the witch hunters.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

Not that big a difference but yes there is a difference. Both are racist and need to be recognised as unacceptable. Thankfully the rhyme is a thing of the past, as are lazy descriptions for some corner shops and carry out shops.
The point I am making is we should recognise our own shortcomings in having used these terms before we reach for the pitchforks and flaming torches. It is so easy these days to race for the moral high ground because we didnae mean it but he did. The truth is we were brought up in a racist society. Thankfully things seem to be changing and the improvement in awareness, mentioned by a previous poster, is what has made that possible, not the witch hunters.

I remember sitting in the FF stand watching this incident live as a 12 year old. From the other end of the pitch I could clearly see what he had done and knew it was wrong. There is zero excuse for an adult not knowing it was wrong in the mid/late 90’s and even less excuse for him not having the minerals to have owned it and apologised nearly 25 years later. Absolute *****bag of a guy.

[BILLYHIBS]

No benefit of the doubt from me. The guy is an absolute ****ing rat of a man.

Now works as a Residential Care Worker for Children with Special Needs trying to give something back realising that he could have done more with his life and his career- a complete turnaround for a former professional footballer

Racism is no excuse however even if it is in the heat of the moment on the football field

He will look back on that incident and hang his head in shame

He is due Kevin Harper an apology

[Just_Jimmy]

1996 FFS.

Hardly the 70s

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[CentreLine]

1996 FFS.

Hardly the 70s

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Another one who fails to get the point of my post but comes back with a critical comment. People talk about calling out racism, sometimes it’s just as important to call out mindless mob mentality.

Now where did I put my pitch fork and burning torch?

[Peevemor]

Another one who fails to get the point of my post but comes back with a critical comment. People talk about calling out racism, sometimes it’s just as important to call out mindless mob mentality.

Now where did I put my pitch fork and burning torch?

You have to remember that here we're in internetland where everyone is squeaky clean and always has been and everyone retains the right to be outraged at the drop of a hat without taking decades of cultural change (often for the better) into account.

[neil7908]

Fair enough, if a little dismissive of the ability of people to change. What exactly do you suggest we do with every person that started a game with “eeny meeny, miny, mo” up to and including the 1970’s. How much of a hammering should they receive?
I did not suggest the things we said and did in the past were not racist but I do suggest they were not necessarily recognised as such.
Not condoning what McKay did by any means, in fact I condemn it unconditionally but I think there is a danger of the moral high ground becoming overcrowded with angels who Pretend they never let a racist phrase escape their lips.
You must have missed my comment about learning lessons if you think it’s not good enough.

I get where you are coming from but I think we need to focus on the details of this case. Mackay has not received any punishment nor admitted guilt. A lot of posters have said if he'd put his hands up, apologised and been clear that he really regretted it and moved forward as a person it would likely be viewed differently.

But he hasn't done that. He's denied, denied, denied and then incredibly gone on to do anti racism work. That is an absolute joke and likely why I think it's completely reasonable to hammer him.

[CentreLine]

You have to remember that here we're in internetland where everyone is squeaky clean and always has been and everyone retains the right to be outraged at the drop of a hat without taking decades of cultural change (often for the better) into account.

Probably the most sensible post on this entire thread. Thanks Peevemor

[Tyler Durden]

You have to remember that here we're in internetland where everyone is squeaky clean and always has been and everyone retains the right to be outraged at the drop of a hat without taking decades of cultural change (often for the better) into account.

There were 3 decades of cultural change prior to 1996 which made it quite clear that it was unacceptable to call someone a monkey.

[calumhibee1]

There were 3 decades of cultural change prior to 1996 which made it quite clear that it was unacceptable to call someone a monkey.

:agree:

In 1996 it wasn’t culturally acceptable to call people a monkey. So I’m not really sure where the cultural change comes into it in this case.

Different for the names used for corner shops and takeaways where it was probably a bit more culturally acceptable. Not that it was right, but I’d have a bit more leniency in those cases for the sort of reasons CL has outlined for this case. Not for GM though.

He’s a ****bag and his continued denial of his actions when even his own teams fans admit it was blatantly obvious what he done make it even worse.

[CentreLine]

There were 3 decades of cultural change prior to 1996 which made it quite clear that it was unacceptable to call someone a monkey.

Quite. Some people take a lot longer than others for things to sink in. And he has had a further 25 years to see the error of his ways and not yet openly done so. But I’d also wish that society had moved on from thinking the answer to everything we disagree with is to lash out. Education works so much better IMHO.
All
This thread and yet nobody has mentioned the homophobia mixed wit racism in the footage of the cup final day they seems to enjoy so much

Pitch forks oot !

[calumhibee1]

Quite. Some people take a lot longer than others for things to sink in. And he has had a further 25 years to see the error of his ways and not yet openly done so. But I’d also wish that society had moved on from thinking the answer to everything we disagree with is to lash out. Education works so much better IMHO.
All
This thread and yet nobody has mentioned the homophobia mixed wit racism in the footage of the cup final day they seems to enjoy so much

Pitch forks oot !

Homophobia and racism in the SC final footage? :confused:

[Sir David Gray]

Homophobia and racism in the SC final footage? :confused:

The video posted earlier about the song towards Jose Quitongo in 1998 starting "Jose's on the water..." followed by mentions of his skin colour and his perceived sexuality for drinking water instead of alcohol.

[Peevemor]

There were 3 decades of cultural change prior to 1996 which made it quite clear that it was unacceptable to call someone a monkey.

I'm not speaking about the MacKay/Harper incident which was unacceptable regardless of the era.

I'm speaking about Jim Davidson (with Chalky et al) being so popular that he had his own prime time show watched by millions every week.

Or kids in school playgrounds throughout Britain imitating Algernon Winston Churchill Razzmatazz.

Or getting a chinky being a treat.

Or being told that calling black people "coloured" was absolutely the right thing to do, but to be criticised for it 30 years later.

Times change.

[calumhibee1]

The video posted earlier about the song towards Jose Quitongo in 1998 starting "Jose's on the water..." followed by mentions of his skin colour and his perceived sexuality for drinking water instead of alcohol.

Ah yes. By “they” I presumed CL had meant the folk who replying on this thread, therefore Hibs fans. My bad!

[makaveli1875]

Okay he took it a stage further but I’d bet if every last one of us looks at themselves in the mirror, can we honestly say we have never uttered or done anything that we now know to be racist?
The thing about Twitter/social media Is it is so easy to whip up a witch hunt amongst people who so want to be better than someone else. Yes maybe Garry McKay and those players and officials on that coach (didn’t I see Mr Deans on board too) needs to take a long hard look at themselves but so do we all at times. It’s what lessons people learn that matter. No need for pitchforks and torches.

C'mon mate it's hibs.net, nobody on here ever did anything wrong in thier lives. We're all paragons of virtue so we can get on our moral high horses and get mad with the pitchforks

[Scouse Hibee]

C'mon mate it's hibs.net, nobody on here ever did anything wrong in thier lives. We're all paragons of virtue so we can get on our moral high horses and get mad with the pitchforks

Spot on 😉

[calumhibee1]

C'mon mate it's hibs.net, nobody on here ever did anything wrong in thier lives. We're all paragons of virtue so we can get on our moral high horses and get mad with the pitchforks

The difference here is that I think folk on here would happily admit that they have previously gone for a chinky or played tick tack toe - and done it when it was ‘culturally acceptable’. I think they’d also be able to say in most cases that they wouldn’t nowadays and that it’s wrong.

Gary Mackay’s actions were absolutely not culturally acceptable and on top of that he’s flat out denied it when it could only have been clearer - even to Hearts fans who admit he done it - if he’d made the arm gestures to go with the noise he was making.

[hibstag]

It would appear Gary MacKay subjected Kevin Harper to racist abuse in an Edinburgh Derby in 1996, which of course he strongly denies, think most of us have probably seen the evidence in question and are able to make our own minds up having heard KH's account.

Hearing Kevin Harper today on Scottish football podcast, it occurred to me with all the revisionism that's going on in the world, removing statues, making changes to our language etc. - Which btw I totally support - Why on earth is Gary McKay still asked for his opinion on football related matters? And how is he still allowed to be an SFA registered agent?

He doesn't deny it though

going by your opening statement I take it that you have not heard Gary mackay speak at show racism the red card events. On this incident I found him to be very honest and reflective on his own thoughts about it.

Dont let the facts....

[Brightside]

C'mon mate it's hibs.net, nobody on here ever did anything wrong in thier lives. We're all paragons of virtue so we can get on our moral high horses and get mad with the pitchforks

You surely get the difference.

[Andy74]

C'mon mate it's hibs.net, nobody on here ever did anything wrong in thier lives. We're all paragons of virtue so we can get on our moral high horses and get mad with the pitchforks

Are you saying that we shouldn’t be speaking out against racism due to all of us having also done something wrong before? I don’t think that’s the right approach.

[CentreLine]

He doesn't deny it though

going by your opening statement I take it that you have not heard Gary mackay speak at show racism the red card events. On this incident I found him to be very honest and reflective on his own thoughts about it.

Dont let the facts....

Interesting. I didn’t know that. All the more reason to be more moderate in our own response to things we disagree with, especially when we do not know the facts.
Personally I am very glad to hear that McKay has acknowledged his shortcomings. He does need to make that contrition known to Kevin Harper, as it appears from the interview that he has never done so, but now can we call off the pack mentality.

[JimBHibees]

He doesn't deny it though

going by your opening statement I take it that you have not heard Gary mackay speak at show racism the red card events. On this incident I found him to be very honest and reflective on his own thoughts about it.

Dont let the facts....

Harper himself said he had never had any sort of apology from McKay.

[Coach Jon]

Granted times have changed,but a leopard doesnt change its spots. I remember being in the Bull and Bush pub in Lothian Road on a Saturday night in the eighties when it was the popular place for my generation, plenty footballers etc.
Anyway I remember Gary Mackay and John Robertson walking in dressed as WW2 German Gestapo Officers complete with Swastika armbands, obviously they were young at the time going to a Fancy Dress party, but i remember even at the time we thought it was OTT, and two guys having a go at them about it, they left fairly quickly after that.
They can be thankful it was before the Mobile Phone/ Social Media era, but I would imagine there would have been photos at the time.

[Geo_1875]

Probably because it hasn’t been proven

In today's climate I doubt proof is needed.

[mcohibs]

Worth pointing out for those that seem adamant on contextualising Mackay's actions that the group Show Racism the Red Card already existed at the time of the incident. Lets not kid ourselves that calling someone a monkey to their face was any more acceptable in 1996. It wasn't.

[LaMotta]

He doesn't deny it though

going by your opening statement I take it that you have not heard Gary mackay speak at show racism the red card events. On this incident I found him to be very honest and reflective on his own thoughts about it.

Dont let the facts....

I doubt many people will have heard him at these events why would they have? So he admitted to it did he?

He denies it here:

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/969508/former-hearts-star-gary-mackay-who-was-once-accused-of-racist-slur-slams-rangers-yobs-who-aimed-monkey-chants-at-celtics-scott-sinclair/

"I said something but In my mind it wasn't racist".

I'm not sure why anyone is sticking up for him on this.

[Peevemor]

Granted times have changed,but a leopard doesnt change its spots. I remember being in the Bull and Bush pub in Lothian Road on a Saturday night in the eighties when it was the popular place for my generation, plenty footballers etc.
Anyway I remember Gary Mackay and John Robertson walking in dressed as WW2 German Gestapo Officers complete with Swastika armbands, obviously they were young at the time going to a Fancy Dress party, but i remember even at the time we thought it was OTT, and two guys having a go at them about it, they left fairly quickly after that.
They can be thankful it was before the Mobile Phone/ Social Media era, but I would imagine there would have been photos at the time.

I have my own way of gauging things like that.

A week or two ago I clocked my 11 year old daughter listening to and singing along with Dont Stop me Now by Queen. I remember when that song came out (1979), I was 12. Her listening to (and liking) that song is equivalent to me, when I was her age, being into music from 1937.

So if we accept that youngsters nowadays are easily influenced by stuff from 40 years ago, then so were those who WERE youngsters 40 years ago.

In the 70s & 80s, germany, the Nazis, Hitler, etc. were still fair game - Basil Fawlty, Freddie Starr, whoever - that was our culture. Bernard Manning, Jim Davidson, etc. - they were headline acts.

And who can forget the Sun's "Gotcha" headline?

So the thought of people wearing Hitler costumes in the 80s doesn't shock me at all.

[Scouse Hibee]

Granted times have changed,but a leopard doesnt change its spots. I remember being in the Bull and Bush pub in Lothian Road on a Saturday night in the eighties when it was the popular place for my generation, plenty footballers etc.
Anyway I remember Gary Mackay and John Robertson walking in dressed as WW2 German Gestapo Officers complete with Swastika armbands, obviously they were young at the time going to a Fancy Dress party, but i remember even at the time we thought it was OTT, and two guys having a go at them about it, they left fairly quickly after that.
They can be thankful it was before the Mobile Phone/ Social Media era, but I would imagine there would have been photos at the time.

I can’t think that many people in the eighties would have been bothered by a Nazi fancy dress uniform to be honest. I remember loads of them and the only reaction was laughter.

[Keith_M]

I doubt many people will have heard him at these events why would they have? So he admitted to it did he?

He denies it here:

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/969508/former-hearts-star-gary-mackay-who-was-once-accused-of-racist-slur-slams-rangers-yobs-who-aimed-monkey-chants-at-celtics-scott-sinclair/

"I said something but In my mind it wasn't racist".

I'm not sure why anyone is sticking up for him on this.



Yep, there's a very big difference between apologizing for something you now feel embarrassed/ashamed about and engaging in mealy mouthed denial, which is what MacKay has done.

That in itself is bad enough but the fact that he then promoted an ant-racism initiative 'beggars belief'.

[Since452]

I've read some of Mackay's stuff in the Evening News and he's as deluded as your average blinkered Jambo. Just a typical Hearts fud. I bet he's a Tory too.

[lyonhibs]

Why the question mark in the thread title?. Medals is as racist as they come, or rather he certainly was back in the mid 90's and shows no signs of awareness or contrition these days which doesn't fill me with confidence that he's changed or evolved much.

[Just_Jimmy]

Another one who fails to get the point of my post but comes back with a critical comment. People talk about calling out racism, sometimes it’s just as important to call out mindless mob mentality.

Now where did I put my pitch fork and burning torch?

Don't be so sensitive. If it had been directed at you I would have quoted you.

The fact is, most knew in 1996 that what Mackay did was racist. It wasn't acceptable then and it should have been hammered.

Even given the change in attitudes since, there was a world of difference in 96 from "ordering a chinky" to hurling racist abuse into the fact of a young man publicly.

Thankfully since 1996 attitudes have changed further to mean both are unacceptable.

Mackay never apologised. He continues to live off the gravy train of Scottish football with this disgusting blemish on his record. People are rightly critical and asking why?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Keith_M]

I just thought I should point out that, contrary to what you might have seen on Life On Mars, not everybody thought racism was acceptable in the 1970s.

[Peevemor]

I just thought I should point out that, contrary to what you might have seen on Life On Mars, not everybody thought racism was acceptable in the 1970s.

True, but what was classed as racism has changed too.

[WhileTheChief..]

Is this thread maybe one for the holy ground?

I'm not bothered by the content, just don't like seeing his name on the main board all the time!

(Well aware it doesn't help when I bump the thread to the top of the page!!)

[Keith_M]

True, but what was classed as racism has changed too.


It has indeed, but there were people way back then that were opposed to quite obvious racism.

I for one wasn't very happy that my childhood friend (we're talking about primary school age), who just happened to be black, was being called a whole load of horrible words by even some of the other kids.

I realise it wouldn't apply to everybody but most of the adults I knew were also appalled as well, and let them know it.


Fortunately we didn't have Chinese takeaways anywhere in the vicinity so I got off lightly on that one...

[Keith_M]

Is this thread maybe one for the holy ground?

I'm not bothered by the content, just don't like seeing his name on the main board all the time!

(Well aware it doesn't help when I bump the thread to the top of the page!!)


Yeah, you're probably right.

[Brizo]

Don't be so sensitive. If it had been directed at you I would have quoted you.

The fact is, most knew in 1996 that what Mackay did was racist. It wasn't acceptable then and it should have been hammered.

Even given the change in attitudes since, there was a world of difference in 96 from "ordering a chinky" to hurling racist abuse into the fact of a young man publicly.

Thankfully since 1996 attitudes have changed further to mean both are unacceptable.

Mackay never apologised. He continues to live off the gravy train of Scottish football with this disgusting blemish on his record. People are rightly critical and asking why?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

:agree:

By 1996 we were twenty years on from the days of "Love thy Neighbour" and "The Black and White Minstrel show" so racism had become totally unacceptable by then. It wasn't acceptable in the 70s either but the type of racism displayed in these shows and by comedians like Manning and Davidson had certainly been accepted back then in mainstream culture.

For me, Mackay doesn't get a by because it was the 90s.

I used to come across him in youth football days when he was taking teams and I always found him an arrogant , unpleasant character with not much interest in anyone other than Gary Mackay. If he's now working in the care sector fair play to him (can't quite believe I've written that) but unless he's had a total personality transplant can't see him owning up to ever doing anything wrong , including racist behaviour.

I'm quite reconciled with the fact that he knows that we know and that most realistic Jambos also know

[hibsbollah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08lm67q


Heres the Kevin Harper interview. Interesting comment that the abuse he got up here was worse than what he received in England.

[Peevemor]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08lm67q


Heres the Kevin Harper interview. Interesting comment that the abuse he got up here was worse than what he received in England.Probably because at the time black players were pretty scarce in Scotland so it drew more attention.

[CentreLine]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p08lm67q


Heres the Kevin Harper interview. Interesting comment that the abuse he got up here was worse than what he received in England.

Also sad that he got abuse within the squad at ER. That was an unwelcome shock in the interview

[lyonhibs]

Probably because at the time black players were pretty scarce in Scotland so it drew more attention.

By "more attention", you mean "more inexcusable racist abuse" right? These people weren't going "good heavens a black man, don't see those around too often, how very quaint"

[Peevemor]

Also sad that he got abuse within the squad at ER. That was an unwelcome shock in the interview

At around the same period I was part of a group of about 30, mostly blokes. One guy was of East African origin and his skin was very slightly darker than everyone elses (to be honest I didn't even notice at first).

Jokes and references were made about his being black. There was nothing nasty intended - these were and are still some of the guy's best mates.

The jokes were made in the same spirit as those about people having ginger hair, being spotty, skinny, fat, bald, hairy, whatever.

Was it racism? Probably, but I think we should consider context before judging.

[bigwheel]

At around the same period I was part of a group of about 30, mostly blokes. One guy was of East African origin and his skin was very slightly darker than everyone elses (to be honest I didn't even notice at first).

Jokes and references were made about his being black. There was nothing nasty intended - these were and are still some of the guy's best mates.

The jokes were made in the same spirit as those about people having ginger hair, being spotty, skinny, fat, bald, hairy, whatever.

Was it racism? Probably, but I think we should consider context before judging.

Sorry, are you correlating this story with Mackay making monkey noises to Harper ? Or other racism he endured in his time as a player up here . Was it just banter ?? Is that your point ...




Ps. and yes you’re right - it was racism with your mate. And I bet he has one hundred other stories of the same type too ..some will have hurt him more than others ...

[hibsbollah]

It was very helpful of Kenny McIntyre to point out to Kevin that it was probably just that he wasn’t good enough to get interviewed for managers jobs, and in fact nothing to do with racism.

[bigwheel]

It was very helpful of Kenny McIntyre to point out to Kevin that it was probably just that he wasn’t good enough to get interviewed for managers jobs, and in fact nothing to do with racism.

A terrible journo..another example of why sportsound lacks the quality of the many non mainstream football podcasts on offer ..

[Peevemor]

Sorry, are you correlating this story with Mackay making monkey noises to Harper ? Or other racism he endured in his time as a player up here . Was it just banter ?? Is that your point ...

.

With racism he experienced from his team mates.

[bigwheel]

With racism he experienced from his team mates.

Is the point that racism from team mates was OK? Because it was “banter”. And other incidents were not ? Still not getting your point ..

Why not just empathise with what the guys been through? rather than try to justify it ..

[Peevemor]

Is the point that racism from team mates was OK? Because it was “banter”. And other incidents were not ? Still not getting your point ..

Why not just empathise with what the guys been through? rather than try to justify it ..That's exactly the point. The guys who came out with the stuff thought it was just banter and would be shocked to be considered racist.

I'm not defending anyone or saying that it was OK, just sharing my own experiences.

As for empathising with the guy - I've known him for over 30 years and we're still good mates. He was recently across here for 10 days holiday sleeping in my spare room and with the run of the house. I ordinarily don't give his origins a second thought.

[bigwheel]

That's exactly the point. The guys who came out with the stuff thought it was just banter and would be shocked to be considered racist.

I'm not defending anyone or saying that it was OK, just sharing my own experiences.

Thanks for explaining. I thought you were seeking to justify the racism as “banter”...

[Peevemor]

Thanks for explaining. I thought you were seeking to justify the racism as “banter”...Not at all, only that it may be intended as nothing more than that.

[Scott Allan Key]

:agree:

In 1996 it wasn’t culturally acceptable to call people a monkey. So I’m not really sure where the cultural change comes into it in this case.

Different for the names used for corner shops and takeaways where it was probably a bit more culturally acceptable. Not that it was right, but I’d have a bit more leniency in those cases for the sort of reasons CL has outlined for this case. Not for GM though.

He’s a ****bag and his continued denial of his actions when even his own teams fans admit it was blatantly obvious what he done make it even worse.

You're wrong to think it was ever culturally acceptable to call a chinese takeaway or asian cornershop by derogatory names. Not culturally accepetable to the people running those establishments. You make the mistake of thinking what's culturally acceptable to white people is what matters. It shows that culture to you excludes non-white cultures. That is a definition of racism.

[Scott Allan Key]

True, but what was classed as racism has changed too.

What was classed as racism wasn't changed by those who suffered from it. You don't seem to understand that- that's a pervasive cultural failing for France.

[Peevemor]

What was classed as racism wasn't changed by those who suffered from it. You don't seem to understand that- that's a pervasive cultural failing for France.I understand well enough, it's just that I try to understand why people behave(d) in a certain way, without looking to justify it.

I was born in the 60s and lived through the 70s & 80s. I observed and understood enough to be able to compare attitudes with those of today.

There are people who didn't experience this era who are too quick to label others without allowing for the influences and culture of the time.

I'm not condoning anything, just trying to understand how people can become unwitting, casual racists.

And I'm anything but French, having lived in Edinburgh until I was 37.

I'd prefer if you didn't judge me, especially when I'm playing the Devil's advocate to a large extent.

[Yorkshire HFC]

Spot on 😉

I don't think anyone on this post went to a Hibs v Rangers game when Mark Walters was playing.

It wasn't a nice place to be.

[Peevemor]

I don't think anyone on this post went to a Hibs v Rangers game when Mark Walters was playing.

It wasn't a nice place to be.I also heard Kevin Harper being called a f'ing black b******, more than once, by a Hibs "supporter" sitting beside me in the old North stand.

I got him told.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Harper has called out "Medals" on many occasions about this incident and has been met with a stony silence and maybe in the early days a denial via third parties.

The "Gaz is a great lad, not a racist bone in his body" sort of garbage that we used to hear about that other Scottish racist Malky Mackay.

"Medals" was a racist and still is a racist and has never shown any sign of acceptance that the incident took place and never will as that's the sort of man he is.

[hibsbollah]

A terrible journo..another example of why sportsound lacks the quality of the many non mainstream football podcasts on offer ..

:agree: When a journalist starts a sentence with ‘i don’t want you to take this the wrong way, but...’ it’s not a good sign.

[Clarence]

You have to remember that here we're in internetland where everyone is squeaky clean and always has been and everyone retains the right to be outraged at the drop of a hat without taking decades of cultural change (often for the better) into account.

Everyone isn’t squeaky clean but not many of us have made monkey noises at a black person in front of thousands of people and thought that was a sound thing to do. I don’t think showing empathy for a young boy being racially abused by a grown man constitutes outrage at the drop of a hat either. He was calling him less than human, that certainly was in no way acceptable in 1996 so I don’t really get your decades of cultural change comment.

[Kato]

He was calling him less than human, that certainly was in no way acceptable in 1996

1983

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLaaSBtx7iE

1971

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeNihHAVAIY


1959

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DGY9HvChXk&feature=emb_logo

[Peevemor]

Everyone isn’t squeaky clean but not many of us have made monkey noises at a black person in front of thousands of people and thought that was a sound thing to do. I don’t think showing empathy for a young boy being racially abused by a grown man constitutes outrage at the drop of a hat either. He was calling him less than human, that certainly was in no way acceptable in 1996 so I don’t really get your decades of cultural change comment.I wasn't referring specifically to the MacKay/Harper incident.

[SouthMoroccoStu]

I can feel sympathy for someone who is accused of something and it’s someone’s word vs someone else

But that YouTube footage is VERY damning

[Pretty Boy]

I can't imagine a time when making monkey noises at someone would ever have been deemed acceptable by a majority of people of any race. It's racist behaviour however it is dressed up and I don't think anyone on this thread has tried to say otherwise.

I can see the explanation, as opposed to justification, of 'banter' in other instances though. Watching that video of the Hearts players in 1998 you can imagine the thought process of 'well Jose is included and he's laughing so it's fine'. I'm not saying that is an acceptable attitude, merely that it may have been an attitude.

Thinking back I engaged in 'banter' when I was younger, particularly towards women, that I wouldn't now. At the time all kinds of elements were at play: peer pressure, personal weakness and ignorance among others. The world has changed massively since the 1990s, maybe not as dramatically as between the 70s and the 90s but change nonetheless. Think of the attitudes people had towards gay people in the early 90s and compare that to now for an obvious example.

Racism shouldn't ever be justified or excused but trying to explain and underatand it is one way we can learn from it and change.

[mcohibs]

The answer to this thread title btw is yes.

[Peevemor]

I can't imagine a time when making monkey noises at someone would ever have been deemed acceptable by a majority of people of any race. It's racist behaviour however it is dressed up and I don't think anyone on this thread has tried to say otherwise.

I can see the explanation, as opposed to justification, of 'banter' in other instances though. Watching that video of the Hearts players in 1998 you can imagine the thought process of 'well Jose is included and he's laughing so it's fine'. I'm not saying that is an acceptable attitude, merely that it may have been an attitude.

Thinking back I engaged in 'banter' when I was younger, particularly towards women, that I wouldn't now. At the time all kinds of elements were at play: peer pressure, personal weakness and ignorance among others. The world has changed massively since the 1990s, maybe not as dramatically as between the 70s and the 90s but change nonetheless. Think of the attitudes people had towards gay people in the early 90s and compare that to now for an obvious example.

Racism shouldn't ever be justified or excused but trying to explain and underatand it is one way we can learn from it and change.Well said.

[Scouse Hibee]

Thinking back:

I started work in 83, we had a wood turner called Alan who was black we always ribbed him about tucking it in his sock.

The apprentice ( I was one) went to the “Pakis” at lunch time to get the order.


The black delivery driver who came to us twice a week was nicknamed Sam or Mr Bo

The first place I worked in Edinburgh in 92 had two Brians in the same dept, so to differentiate we called the dark skin guy “Black Brian”

Just some examples I now look back on and realise how times have changed.

[hibsbollah]

I can't imagine a time when making monkey noises at someone would ever have been deemed acceptable by a majority of people of any race. It's racist behaviour however it is dressed up and I don't think anyone on this thread has tried to say otherwise.

I can see the explanation, as opposed to justification, of 'banter' in other instances though. Watching that video of the Hearts players in 1998 you can imagine the thought process of 'well Jose is included and he's laughing so it's fine'. I'm not saying that is an acceptable attitude, merely that it may have been an attitude.

Thinking back I engaged in 'banter' when I was younger, particularly towards women, that I wouldn't now. At the time all kinds of elements were at play: peer pressure, personal weakness and ignorance among others. The world has changed massively since the 1990s, maybe not as dramatically as between the 70s and the 90s but change nonetheless. Think of the attitudes people had towards gay people in the early 90s and compare that to now for an obvious example.

Racism shouldn't ever be justified or excused but trying to explain and underatand it is one way we can learn from it and change.

All very true.

[FranckSuzy]

I was invited to the Scottish Parliament by the Multi-Cultural Family Base for an evening celebrating equality, diversity and inclusion. One of the invited guests was Medals and he spoke to the children present, who were 100% from the BAME community, advising them about speaking up against bullying, racism etc. I pointed out the utter hypocrisy to the organiser and she looked horrified, if not slightly bemused, by my assertion....

[The Count]

Remember my first day working in a well know Edinburgh office in the late 1970s.I was 18 and my immediate boss who went on to be the big boss years later welcomed me with " So your a Pape" !!!! So i can kind of relate to racism to an extent all be it when i sat on a bus nobody knew my background compared to a black guy sitting on a bus.Its a cruel world unfortunately.

[CraigHibee]

Medals mckay, 100% racist ****, bitter jambo fud

[The Count]

I was invited to the Scottish Parliament by the Multi-Cultural Family Base for an evening celebrating equality, diversity and inclusion. One of the invited guests was Medals and he spoke to the children present, who were 100% from the BAME community, advising them 7about speaking up against bullying, racism etc. I pointed out the utter hypocrisy to the organiser and she looked horrified, if not slightly bemused, by my assertion....

I dont know but maybe he recognised the racicm of his youth and he changed and addressed it.Only he could answer that though.People can change and become a better person.Mind you an public apology to Kevin would help.

[BILLYHIBS]

I dont know but maybe he recognised the racicm of his youth and he changed and addressed it.Only he could answer that though.People can change and become a better person.Mind you an public apology to Kevin would help.

This

[hibbydog]

I can't imagine a time when making monkey noises at someone would ever have been deemed acceptable by a majority of people of any race. It's racist behaviour however it is dressed up and I don't think anyone on this thread has tried to say otherwise.

I can see the explanation, as opposed to justification, of 'banter' in other instances though. Watching that video of the Hearts players in 1998 you can imagine the thought process of 'well Jose is included and he's laughing so it's fine'. I'm not saying that is an acceptable attitude, merely that it may have been an attitude.

Thinking back I engaged in 'banter' when I was younger, particularly towards women, that I wouldn't now. At the time all kinds of elements were at play: peer pressure, personal weakness and ignorance among others. The world has changed massively since the 1990s, maybe not as dramatically as between the 70s and the 90s but change nonetheless. Think of the attitudes people had towards gay people in the early 90s and compare that to now for an obvious example.

Racism shouldn't ever be justified or excused but trying to explain and underatand it is one way we can learn from it and change.

Wise words

[neil7908]

I dont know but maybe he recognised the racicm of his youth and he changed and addressed it.Only he could answer that though.People can change and become a better person.Mind you an public apology to Kevin would help.

I understand where your coming from but if he's addressed it then he needs to at the very least speak to Kevin Harper and apologise. You can't really move on from something that you deny happened and when there have been no consequences.

[matty_f]

It was very helpful of Kenny McIntyre to point out to Kevin that it was probably just that he wasn’t good enough to get interviewed for managers jobs, and in fact nothing to do with racism.

McIntyre is dreadful at interviews, asks about seven questions at once, often using loaded questions with it.

That said, i think by asking that particular question he gave Harper the platform to shout that argument down (which he did).

[One Day]

Remember my first day working in a well know Edinburgh office in the late 1970s.I was 18 and my immediate boss who went on to be the big boss years later welcomed me with " So your a Pape" !!!! So i can kind of relate to racism to an extent all be it when i sat on a bus nobody knew my background compared to a black guy sitting on a bus.Its a cruel world unfortunately.

Walking home from Catholic primary school in the 1960's Pape, or Papish bast**d comment was often said / muttered by random passers by. I can only assume the recognised the school badge / tie.

[mixumatosis]

People's attitudes to child abusers used to be different too.

"He's a bit funny that guy", calling it a "condition". Telling victims it's just part of growing up and not to make a fuss. Moving abusers around (not just priests or religious btw) when an allegation came to light. The paedophile information exchange operated openly until the mid 80's, campaigning for the abolition of the age of consent.

If this was a story about a youth team player in the showers instead of a black player on the pitch, not one person on this forum would be talking about context or making jokes about pitchforks or mob mentality, just because some people's attitudes to the offence used to be different. Not one.

[Skol]

People's attitudes to child abusers used to be different too.

"He's a bit funny that guy", calling it a "condition". Telling victims it's just part of growing up and not to make a fuss. Moving abusers around (not just priests or religious btw) when an allegation came to light. The paedophile information exchange operated openly until the mid 80's, campaigning for the abolition of the age of consent.

If this was a story about a youth team player in the showers instead of a black player on the pitch, not one person on this forum would be talking about context or making jokes about pitchforks or mob mentality, just because some people's attitudes to the offence used to be different. Not one.

I am 10 years older than you and child abuse has never been acceptable in my lifetime.

Racism isnt acceptable either although it was widely accepted

[mixumatosis]

I am 10 years older than you and child abuse has never been acceptable in my lifetime.

Racism isnt acceptable either although it was widely accepted

It's an emotive subject so let me be perfectly clear, I am not suggesting that it was ever deemed acceptable (by anyone other than those involved in perpetrating the crime - see P.I.E. ref above).

However, it is clear that people used to look the other way, let it slide or think it was up to someone else to police it in much the same way that racism was casually allowed to pass without comment or censure.

We spend huge amounts of time and money investigating allegations of historical abuse and rightly so. But when people on a message board suggest that a man should apologise for a racist act in his past, they're accused of acting like a mob with the pitchforks out.

That seems like double standards to me.

[CentreLine]

People's attitudes to child abusers used to be different too.

"He's a bit funny that guy", calling it a "condition". Telling victims it's just part of growing up and not to make a fuss. Moving abusers around (not just priests or religious btw) when an allegation came to light. The paedophile information exchange operated openly until the mid 80's, campaigning for the abolition of the age of consent.

If this was a story about a youth team player in the showers instead of a black player on the pitch, not one person on this forum would be talking about context or making jokes about pitchforks or mob mentality, just because some people's attitudes to the offence used to be different. Not one.

Don’t think for a moment that my reference to pitch forks and mob mentality were made in a jocular manner. It is a very fair analogy when describing the dangerous tendency for uncontrolled outrage expressed on many website forums, including this one, when discussing emotive issues. I find this rush to suggest a violent solution equally as abhorrent as the vile crimes and behaviours we are discussing. When people come along suggesting a different approach they are shouted down and expected to acquiesce. Failure to do so is somehow interpreted as support for the actions of the original wrongdoer. Nothing could be further from the truth and I have not seen one post on this thread that suggests racism is acceptable.
Sensible debate is a good thing and very much needed to rid us of these issues but the mob mentality is all too clear on Internet forums as it is, all too increasingly, on our streets.

[matty_f]

Don’t think for a moment that my reference to pitch forks and mob mentality were made in a jocular manner. It is a very fair analogy when describing the dangerous tendency for uncontrolled outrage expressed on many website forums, including this one, when discussing emotive issues. I find this rush to suggest a violent solution equally as abhorrent as the vile crimes and behaviours we are discussing. When people come along suggesting a different approach they are shouted down and expected to acquiesce. Failure to do so is somehow interpreted as support for the actions of the original wrongdoer. Nothing could be further from the truth and I have not seen one post on this thread that suggests racism is acceptable.
Sensible debate is a good thing and very much needed to rid us of these issues but the mob mentality is all too clear on Internet forums as it is, all too increasingly, on our streets.

:agree: “cancel culture” is the phrase for it these days, i think.

[Peevemor]

Don’t think for a moment that my reference to pitch forks and mob mentality were made in a jocular manner. It is a very fair analogy when describing the dangerous tendency for uncontrolled outrage expressed on many website forums, including this one, when discussing emotive issues. I find this rush to suggest a violent solution equally as abhorrent as the vile crimes and behaviours we are discussing. When people come along suggesting a different approach they are shouted down and expected to acquiesce. Failure to do so is somehow interpreted as support for the actions of the original wrongdoer. Nothing could be further from the truth and I have not seen one post on this thread that suggests racism is acceptable.
Sensible debate is a good thing and very much needed to rid us of these issues but the mob mentality is all too clear on Internet forums as it is, all too increasingly, on our streets.Well said. As someone else said, trying to understand why a problem exists is the best way to find a solution. Being blinkered to the point of rage leads to people confusing paedophiles with paediatricians (for example).

[Peevemor]

It's an emotive subject so let me be perfectly clear, I am not suggesting that it was ever deemed acceptable (by anyone other than those involved in perpetrating the crime - see P.I.E. ref above).

However, it is clear that people used to look the other way, let it slide or think it was up to someone else to police it in much the same way that racism was casually allowed to pass without comment or censure.

We spend huge amounts of time and money investigating allegations of historical abuse and rightly so. But when people on a message board suggest that a man should apologise for a racist act in his past, they're accused of acting like a mob with the pitchforks out.

That seems like double standards to me.It was definitely brushed under the carpet.

There was a bloke involved in my local BB company who was the subject of jokes ans rumours throughout my youth. Years later he was convicted for historic child sex crimes.

Nowadays that wouldn't have been ignored for so long.

There are obviously countless more cases, but that one involved people I knew (he was even at my Dad's funeral until I politely asked him to leave).

[hibsbollah]

McIntyre is dreadful at interviews, asks about seven questions at once, often using loaded questions with it.

That said, i think by asking that particular question he gave Harper the platform to shout that argument down (which he did).

If Mcintyre had said ‘let me play devils advocate here’ or ‘what would you say if somebody said this to you’...it would have been OK. As it was, he blurted out what sounded like an accusation at Kevin, which just sounded weird. As you say, it may have been more to do with him being crap at his job rather than any genuine ill will on his part. He sounded really uncomfortable talking about the subject in general.

[lucky]

Do I think medals is racist, no did he make racist comments yes but if everyone believes that medals can’t change should read about Matt Collins from Hope not Hate and read his book Hate. Or alternatively they can read Ricky Tomlinson autobiography Ricky. He went from being in the National Front to being jailed for trade union activism. We all hate racism but it’s grossly unfair to characterise a man who made a mistake and has worked Show Racism The Red Card as a racist forever.

[Hibs1969]

I also heard Kevin Harper being called a f'ing black b******, more than once, by a Hibs "supporter" sitting beside me in the old North stand.

I got him told.
Hibs v Rangers at ER 1995 or 1996. I was in the old East stand, Kevin Harper was jostling with Basil Boli when one of our more enlightened fans, with absolutely no sense of self awareness screamed at the top of his voice ‘Harper get intae that f***ing black b*****d’

A couple of fans called him out but the moron was unrepentant and most indignant that he should be able to speak his mind ‘ cos I’ve paid my money just like you’ .

I’m fairly certain that anyone who has spent any time at ER will be fully aware that we have plenty bigots in our support too. A minority for sure, but one that can be clearly heard at times.

[Peevemor]

Hibs v Rangers at ER 1995 or 1996. I was in the old East stand, Kevin Harper was jostling with Basil Boli when one of our more enlightened fans, with absolutely no sense of self awareness screamed at the top of his voice ‘Harper get intae that f***ing black b*****d’

A couple of fans called him out but the moron was unrepentant and most indignant that he should be able to speak his mind ‘ cos I’ve paid my money just like you’ .

I’m fairly certain that anyone who has spent any time at ER will be fully aware that we have plenty bigots in our support too. A minority for sure, but one that can be clearly heard at times.With me it was a SC game against Motherwell in February 1995. We won 2-0 and it was when Harper scored I went daft at the guy sitting next to me who'd been giving him abuse. My English cousins were at the match with me were worried that I was going to do some real damage.

[CMurdoch]

I can't imagine a time when making monkey noises at someone would ever have been deemed acceptable by a majority of people of any race. It's racist behaviour however it is dressed up and I don't think anyone on this thread has tried to say otherwise.

I can see the explanation, as opposed to justification, of 'banter' in other instances though. Watching that video of the Hearts players in 1998 you can imagine the thought process of 'well Jose is included and he's laughing so it's fine'. I'm not saying that is an acceptable attitude, merely that it may have been an attitude.

Thinking back I engaged in 'banter' when I was younger, particularly towards women, that I wouldn't now. At the time all kinds of elements were at play: peer pressure, personal weakness and ignorance among others. The world has changed massively since the 1990s, maybe not as dramatically as between the 70s and the 90s but change nonetheless. Think of the attitudes people had towards gay people in the early 90s and compare that to now for an obvious example.

Racism shouldn't ever be justified or excused but trying to explain and underatand it is one way we can learn from it and change.

Great and well worded post.

On the trying to put your opponent off front. I remember as a young defender being threatened with violence by a much older opposition player whilst playing in an amateur game on a public park. Obviously, I now know that was common place and it was a tactic to intimidate me into giving him a bit more space but at the time I felt I was going to get a doing.

In isolation, is what Mackay did worse than the threats I experienced, I would say no.
In isolation, is what Mackay did worse than supporters racially abusing Kevin Harper from the stands that day, again I would say a definite no.
But
What does aggravate what Mackay did was that Harper had been been receiving mass racial abuse from Hearts supporters from the stands which must have made him feel isolated and concerned for his safety and Mackay reinforced that by doing what he did.

Is Mackay a racist? I think not but he took sledging his opponent well over the line that day.
Should he apologise to Kevin Harper? Of course he should. I'm surprised he hasn't, especially given he could probably get lots of work on the back of it. Everybody loves a reformed fallen man.
Why doesn't he? Ironically, probably fear. Don't think he can run much longer though in the present political climate of "black lives matter".

[Kato]

Don’t think for a moment that my reference to pitch forks and mob mentality were made in a jocular manner. It is a very fair analogy when describing the dangerous tendency for uncontrolled outrage expressed on many website forums, including this one, when discussing emotive issues. I find this rush to suggest a violent solution equally as abhorrent as the vile crimes and behaviours we are discussing. When people come along suggesting a different approach they are shouted down and expected to acquiesce. Failure to do so is somehow interpreted as support for the actions of the original wrongdoer. Nothing could be further from the truth and I have not seen one post on this thread that suggests racism is acceptable.
Sensible debate is a good thing and very much needed to rid us of these issues but the mob mentality is all too clear on Internet forums as it is, all too increasingly, on our streets.MacKay could admit what he did and apologise to Harper.

It would make his Show Racism the Red Card message all the more powerful. Education is how racist views are changed.

Contextualising the incident without that apology is pretty useless. If he truly sees himself as an ambassador of anti-racism he's looking foolish without addressing that incident.

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[JimBHibees]

MacKay could admit what he did and apologise to Harper.

It would make his Show Racism the Red Card message all the more powerful. Education is how racist views are changed.

Contextualising the incident without that apology is pretty useless. If he truly sees himself as an ambassador of anti-racism he's looking foolish without addressing that incident.

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Couldn't agree more he would then be the perfect example of now realising the huge mistake he made. To have denied it and then not apologised to the player he abused personally definitely weakens imo any work he may now be involved in with regards to anti racism.