Development players promoted to first team

[Unseen work]

With the announcement of some development players being pushed into the first team, What impact if any can we expect?

Would be interested to hear views on people who see them regularly and have a bit of knowledge on them.

Ben Stirling - 22 Next month and never been on the bench in a competitive game. Albeit Iv been impressed with him when Iv seen him pre season and the winter break game against the Dutch team. At 21/22 though you expect him to have played a lot more competitive football.

Innes Murray - Another 22 year old that hasn’t even made appearances in friendlies. Will he have a chance?

Kevin Dabrowski - Heard good things about him and supposedly impressed at Cowdenbeath, could be be our back up? Again he’s 22 so needs to be playing games

Ryan Shanley - 19 year old striker who signed a 3 year extension in January so someone must rate him, is he ready?

Callum Yeates - 18 year old left back who I don’t know much about at all, any good?

Josh Doig - Appeared very calm and assured in pre season and got rave reviews and compared to Robertson which I feel is unfair pressure on the lad. I’m sure I read hibs see him as a centre half however not a full back?


Although we’re ‘promoting’ players to the first team, the majority are 22 and should have been training/ making appearances years ago if they had anything about them. Especially when you consider Murray, Mackie, Gullan, Shaw and Porteous are all similar age or younger and are (were for Shaw) ahead of them, with the jury still out on the majority of them.

Can we realistically see the younger players make a meaningful and impressive contribution this season?

For me id like to see our youngsters exposed to first team football at a much, much younger age.

[04Sauzee]

With the announcement of some development players being pushed into the first team, What impact if any can we expect?

Would be interested to hear views on people who see them regularly and have a bit of knowledge on them.

Ben Stirling - 22 Next month and never been on the bench in a competitive game. Albeit Iv been impressed with him when Iv seen him pre season and the winter break game against the Dutch team. At 21/22 though you expect him to have played a lot more competitive football.

Innes Murray - Another 22 year old that hasn’t even made appearances in friendlies. Will he have a chance?

Kevin Dabrowski - Heard good things about him and supposedly impressed at Cowdenbeath, could be be our back up? Again he’s 22 so needs to be playing games

Ryan Shanley - 19 year old striker who signed a 3 year extension in January so someone must rate him, is he ready?

Callum Yeates - 18 year old left back who I don’t know much about at all, any good?

Josh Doig - Appeared very calm and assured in pre season and got rave reviews and compared to Robertson which I feel is unfair pressure on the lad. I’m sure I read hibs see him as a centre half however not a full back?


Although we’re ‘promoting’ players to the first team, the majority are 22 and should have been training/ making appearances years ago if they had anything about them. Especially when you consider Murray, Mackie, Gullan, Shaw and Porteous are all similar age or younger and are (were for Shaw) ahead of them, with the jury still out on the majority of them.

Can we realistically see the younger players make a meaningful and impressive contribution this season?

For me id like to see our youngsters exposed to first team football at a much, much younger age.

Haven't seen much of the young guys myself so I'm sure there will be people better qualified than me to talk about them. What I would say that at 21/22 you would like to think you woukd be in and around the first team if u are going to make it.

[Vault Boy]

I'm glad you posted this thread because academy products getting more game time could well be an important element of our approach to the new season.

I have only really seen highlights of the youth games, but try to read up on the feedback given by the loanee clubs when we send players out. Overall, this means I've got a fairly limited knowledge of our young players but, like most fans, I've a fair idea of who's being touted to make the 'next step.'

I'm excited to see some of the so-called older youth players during pre season, hopefully this is their time. I know Graeme Mathie is an advocate for giving opportunities to late blooming youth candidates and has spoken openly about being conscientious of the development of players who are at the oldest end of particular age brackets. I think this is a sensible approach and has been vindicated a number of times, with countless players only really hitting their physical and technical stride in their twenties.

Whatever happens, I'm wishing all the young players the best of luck, their success is our success and it would be a really timely moment to blood some promising players.

[Northernhibee]

We talk about age but how old was Darren McGregor when he made his first top flight appearance?

[B.H.F.C]

We talk about age but how old was Darren McGregor when he made his first top flight appearance?

He was 24 but did have a hundred appearances in League 1 and 2 plus a couple of seasons in the juniors.

I think the problem for Murray and Stirling is that they haven’t played much ‘real’ football at 22. Only got a handful of senior games. Goes back to the development league not developing players properly.

I hope one or both of them can make an impression but I would be surprised. Will be interesting to see what we do with the younger ones like Doig.

[Andy74]

With the announcement of some development players being pushed into the first team, What impact if any can we expect?

Would be interested to hear views on people who see them regularly and have a bit of knowledge on them.

Ben Stirling - 22 Next month and never been on the bench in a competitive game. Albeit Iv been impressed with him when Iv seen him pre season and the winter break game against the Dutch team. At 21/22 though you expect him to have played a lot more competitive football.

Innes Murray - Another 22 year old that hasn’t even made appearances in friendlies. Will he have a chance?

Kevin Dabrowski - Heard good things about him and supposedly impressed at Cowdenbeath, could be be our back up? Again he’s 22 so needs to be playing games

Ryan Shanley - 19 year old striker who signed a 3 year extension in January so someone must rate him, is he ready?

Callum Yeates - 18 year old left back who I don’t know much about at all, any good?

Josh Doig - Appeared very calm and assured in pre season and got rave reviews and compared to Robertson which I feel is unfair pressure on the lad. I’m sure I read hibs see him as a centre half however not a full back?


Although we’re ‘promoting’ players to the first team, the majority are 22 and should have been training/ making appearances years ago if they had anything about them. Especially when you consider Murray, Mackie, Gullan, Shaw and Porteous are all similar age or younger and are (were for Shaw) ahead of them, with the jury still out on the majority of them.

Can we realistically see the younger players make a meaningful and impressive contribution this season?

For me id like to see our youngsters exposed to first team football at a much, much younger age.

We’ll see. I don’t really think they are being pushed into the first team, they are taking part in pre season and we tend to see that most years before they get pushed out by new players. I think we will sign players in due course and I’d doubt we will see too much of them.

[easty]

I’ve saw Ben Stirling play for the development team a few times, I’ve always thought he looked a very good player. However, he plays in a position we’ve been desperate for a player in, and he’s never had a look-in so there must be something lacking in his game, from the various managers point of view.

[Mibbes Aye]

Certainly until a season or two ago, I used to get to a number of dev games a season. Not loads, but enough to get some sense of who we had. So, Callum Crane was talked up by some on here and I thought he was a decent, busy player but I couldn’t see him making it in our first team.

Over the last last ten years or so, the two who caught my eye were Lee Currie and Ben Stirling. I thought Lee Currie had the sweetest left foot you could wish for. He didn’t make the breakthrough with us and I think is at Berwick Rangers now?

Ben Stirling looked composed every time I saw him, and he was being played all over the place, right-back, centre-half, defensive centre mid and more orthodox centre mid.

He reminded me a bit of coaching kids’ football and weeknight training -you were a player down for the game at the end, after the drills, and got talked into letting one of the big brothers play in an age group they were two years above. He just stood out as being on a slightly higher plane.

Mind you, sometimes we went in to play as coaches, and if there were older kids as stand-ins they weren’t spared a hard challenge :greengrin

Anyway, Ben hasn’t played as much senior football as one would have hoped, I don’t know if injuries have played a part in that.

[JDT]

Over the last last ten years or so, the two who caught my eye were Lee Currie and Ben Stirling. I thought Lee Currie had the sweetest left foot you could wish for. He didn’t make the breakthrough with us and I think is at Berwick Rangers now?

Lee Currie plays for Bonnyrigg Rose, has done for a few seasons now and you're spot on about his left peg. Sweet as a nut

[greenpaper55]

I think youth is the way forward for a lot of clubs this coming season, maybe not a bad thing there is less money to throw around.

[brog]

I've only seen the development squad live once, at Brentford, where they won 2-0 & played well. Despite Oli Shaw playing well & scoring both goals, Jamie Gullan was the stand out for me & he's been rewarded with his elevation to the 1st team squad. Innes Murray looked a clever player but a bit lightweight & Ryan Shanley likewise though he certainly has potential. Yeats was solid without standing out & Ben Stirling was very impressive at the back. He's a big lad but athletic with it. Interestingly, 2 players who were tipped for better things, the centre back Sadiki & Josh Campbell didn't distinguish themselves IMO. Sadiki has now been released & JC, who played in our early friendly & LC games last season is not in 1st team squad. Paddy Martin had a fine game in goals so if Kevin D is rated more highly then we may have an excellent prospect on our hands.
One thing I would say is let's not fall into the trap of writing off players just because they've reached the grand old age of 21. As an example, in his short spell at Alloa, Ben S helped them have shut outs against Dundee Utd ( Shankland et al ) & ICT, something our 1st team couldn't do on 3 occasions. Players develop in different ways, not every one will make it but let's try to support & encourage them on their journey.

[CapitalGreen]

I've only seen the development squad live once, at Brentford, where they won 2-0 & played well. Despite Oli Shaw playing well & scoring both goals, Jamie Gullan was the stand out for me & he's been rewarded with his elevation to the 1st team squad. Innes Murray looked a clever player but a bit lightweight & Ryan Shanley likewise though he certainly has potential. Yeats was solid without standing out & Ben Stirling was very impressive at the back. He's a big lad but athletic with it. Interestingly, 2 players who were tipped for better things, the centre back Sadiki & Josh Campbell didn't distinguish themselves IMO. Sadiki has now been released & JC, who played in our early friendly & LC games last season is not in 1st team squad. Paddy Martin had a fine game in goals so if Kevin D is rated more highly then we may have an excellent prospect on our hands.
One thing I would say is let's not fall into the trap of writing off players just because they've reached the grand old age of 21. As an example, in his short spell at Alloa, Ben S helped them have shut outs against Dundee Utd ( Shankland et al ) & ICT, something our 1st team couldn't do on 3 occasions. Players develop in different ways, not every one will make it but let's try to support & encourage them on their journey.

Josh Campbell is still training with the 1st team now. I think you can see him in the distance behind David Gray on the training video at 2 seconds.

[J-C]

I've only seen the development squad live once, at Brentford, where they won 2-0 & played well. Despite Oli Shaw playing well & scoring both goals, Jamie Gullan was the stand out for me & he's been rewarded with his elevation to the 1st team squad. Innes Murray looked a clever player but a bit lightweight & Ryan Shanley likewise though he certainly has potential. Yeats was solid without standing out & Ben Stirling was very impressive at the back. He's a big lad but athletic with it. Interestingly, 2 players who were tipped for better things, the centre back Sadiki & Josh Campbell didn't distinguish themselves IMO. Sadiki has now been released & JC, who played in our early friendly & LC games last season is not in 1st team squad. Paddy Martin had a fine game in goals so if Kevin D is rated more highly then we may have an excellent prospect on our hands.
One thing I would say is let's not fall into the trap of writing off players just because they've reached the grand old age of 21. As an example, in his short spell at Alloa, Ben S helped them have shut outs against Dundee Utd ( Shankland et al ) & ICT, something our 1st team couldn't do on 3 occasions. Players develop in different ways, not every one will make it but let's try to support & encourage them on their journey.


Did Campbell not play in midfield in those early games? and do you think Stirling can play DM as I know he's very versatile, maybe his technique and strength could be a good thing in that position.

[madhatter]

I've only seen the development squad live once, at Brentford, where they won 2-0 & played well. Despite Oli Shaw playing well & scoring both goals, Jamie Gullan was the stand out for me & he's been rewarded with his elevation to the 1st team squad. Innes Murray looked a clever player but a bit lightweight & Ryan Shanley likewise though he certainly has potential. Yeats was solid without standing out & Ben Stirling was very impressive at the back. He's a big lad but athletic with it. Interestingly, 2 players who were tipped for better things, the centre back Sadiki & Josh Campbell didn't distinguish themselves IMO. Sadiki has now been released & JC, who played in our early friendly & LC games last season is not in 1st team squad. Paddy Martin had a fine game in goals so if Kevin D is rated more highly then we may have an excellent prospect on our hands.
One thing I would say is let's not fall into the trap of writing off players just because they've reached the grand old age of 21. As an example, in his short spell at Alloa, Ben S helped them have shut outs against Dundee Utd ( Shankland et al ) & ICT, something our 1st team couldn't do on 3 occasions. Players develop in different ways, not every one will make it but let's try to support & encourage them on their journey.

No point keeping them unless we are going to play them. Im all for supporting them but they should absolutely be more known to first team affairs by now. Collectively they've maybe had 20 senior games max (I'm including Fraser Murray in that). Porteous has established himself, the rest, if fortunate are 3rd choice and find themselves on the bench, or are in the crowd.

Im not writing them off by any means but why sign James, Nelom and Mavrias (recent examples are fullback) when we've had youngsters that could be 2nd choice. Competition is a flawed argument as the youngsters should be challenging their senior counterparts. If Stevenson had a bad game, throw in Mackie next week. Doesn't happen though and instead we've got 21-22 year old "youngsters" with very low number of first team appearances, ask Fraser Murray and Oli Shaw. Murray is likely to go the same way as Shaw.

We are stunting growth and then hoping for late development. If our senior players cant help 1-2 youngsters through a game against some teams in our league then it's quite worrying from a senior perspective. Cant play youngsters because our senior squad isn't good enough is my thought.

[calumhibee1]

Haven't seen much of the young guys myself so I'm sure there will be people better qualified than me to talk about them. What I would say that at 21/22 you would like to think you woukd be in and around the first team if u are going to make it.

By 22 we should be worried about keeping them if they’re good, never mind hoping they’d be in and around the first team. Guys like Innes Murray and Ben Stirling should be long gone as harsh as it sounds.

[jacomo]

By 22 we should be worried about keeping them if they’re good, never mind hoping they’d be in and around the first team. Guys like Innes Murray and Ben Stirling should be long gone as harsh as it sounds.


I feel that youth football still favours the early developers. Young lads who are strong and quick at 16 progress... those who are a bit behind do not, even though they might be better players.

I am not too worried that some of our development players are now 21 or 22 without much first team football, but their time is now. They need to either seize the opportunity or move on.

Innes Murray signed a three year contract in January IIRC... a huge show of faith in him, especially as he’s an attacking midfielder and we have plenty of options there.

[Sergio sledge]

I've only seen the development squad live once, at Brentford, where they won 2-0 & played well. Despite Oli Shaw playing well & scoring both goals, Jamie Gullan was the stand out for me & he's been rewarded with his elevation to the 1st team squad. Innes Murray looked a clever player but a bit lightweight & Ryan Shanley likewise though he certainly has potential. Yeats was solid without standing out & Ben Stirling was very impressive at the back. He's a big lad but athletic with it. Interestingly, 2 players who were tipped for better things, the centre back Sadiki & Josh Campbell didn't distinguish themselves IMO. Sadiki has now been released & JC, who played in our early friendly & LC games last season is not in 1st team squad. Paddy Martin had a fine game in goals so if Kevin D is rated more highly then we may have an excellent prospect on our hands.
One thing I would say is let's not fall into the trap of writing off players just because they've reached the grand old age of 21. As an example, in his short spell at Alloa, Ben S helped them have shut outs against Dundee Utd ( Shankland et al ) & ICT, something our 1st team couldn't do on 3 occasions. Players develop in different ways, not every one will make it but let's try to support & encourage them on their journey.

I don't think anyone is writing them off just yet, but the stats show that if someone hasn't played the equivalent of 11/12 first team games by the time they are 20 then they are unlikely to make it at Hibs (or any club at our level).

If we want to develop them to make a transfer fee or see them go on to bigger things (e.g. the EPL) then they need to have played the equivalent of 11/12 games by the time they were 18.

I'd suggest that apart from Porteous, the rest of the current age 20/21/22 group are on the bubble as to whether they make it at Hibs or not. Most will likely not make it.

Players at or around the age of Josh Doig need to be making sub appearances and pushing for games in the league cup at their age. He's done really well to get first team exposure at a lower level before turning 18 and should be now pushing to make the step up. This season should be a great opportunity for him.

[Unseen work]

I've only seen the development squad live once, at Brentford, where they won 2-0 & played well. Despite Oli Shaw playing well & scoring both goals, Jamie Gullan was the stand out for me & he's been rewarded with his elevation to the 1st team squad. Innes Murray looked a clever player but a bit lightweight & Ryan Shanley likewise though he certainly has potential. Yeats was solid without standing out & Ben Stirling was very impressive at the back. He's a big lad but athletic with it. Interestingly, 2 players who were tipped for better things, the centre back Sadiki & Josh Campbell didn't distinguish themselves IMO. Sadiki has now been released & JC, who played in our early friendly & LC games last season is not in 1st team squad. Paddy Martin had a fine game in goals so if Kevin D is rated more highly then we may have an excellent prospect on our hands.
One thing I would say is let's not fall into the trap of writing off players just because they've reached the grand old age of 21. As an example, in his short spell at Alloa, Ben S helped them have shut outs against Dundee Utd ( Shankland et al ) & ICT, something our 1st team couldn't do on 3 occasions. Players develop in different ways, not every one will make it but let's try to support & encourage them on their journey.


100% agree re Gullan, for me it’s his power and skill to get past players that could take him to the next level, I was never confident with Olly in a 1 v 1.

Stirling like I said looks like the sort of centre mid we’ve been needing, big strong boy, presses the opposition and really comfortable on the ball. Which makes me wonder why he hasn’t been given the chance?

I thought the boy Paddy Martin was really poor in pre season, did he not chuck 2 goals in against Dumbarton?

Id love nothing more than our youngsters to come into the first team and really perform well, but look at other teams and youngsters that are performing well and they’re all 19 or so, not 22.

[The Modfather]

No point keeping them unless we are going to play them. Im all for supporting them but they should absolutely be more known to first team affairs by now. Collectively they've maybe had 20 senior games max (I'm including Fraser Murray in that). Porteous has established himself, the rest, if fortunate are 3rd choice and find themselves on the bench, or are in the crowd.

Im not writing them off by any means but why sign James, Nelom and Mavrias (recent examples are fullback) when we've had youngsters that could be 2nd choice. Competition is a flawed argument as the youngsters should be challenging their senior counterparts. If Stevenson had a bad game, throw in Mackie next week. Doesn't happen though and instead we've got 21-22 year old "youngsters" with very low number of first team appearances, ask Fraser Murray and Oli Shaw. Murray is likely to go the same way as Shaw.

We are stunting growth and then hoping for late development. If our senior players cant help 1-2 youngsters through a game against some teams in our league then it's quite worrying from a senior perspective. Cant play youngsters because our senior squad isn't good enough is my thought.

Completely agree. We’ve gone from 4th - 5th - 6th (technically 7th) the last 3 seasons. Would we have been any worse having promoted youngsters instead of signing James, Mavrias, Bigirimana, Neleom, Specter, Johnson etc. That’s not even counting the duds that made sense at the time like Vela, Hyndman, Middleton etc.

If Hibs don’t use this time to be brave and give the youth a chance there’s not much point starting up the academy again IMO.

[Andy74]

Completely agree. We’ve gone from 4th - 5th - 6th (technically 7th) the last 3 seasons. Would we have been any worse having promoted youngsters instead of signing James, Mavrias, Bigirimana, Neleom, Specter, Johnson etc. That’s not even counting the duds that made sense at the time like Vela, Hyndman, Middleton etc.

If Hibs don’t use this time to be brave and give the youth a chance there’s not much point starting up the academy again IMO.

Would we have been worse playing out youngsters? Yes, probably. Recently they haven’t been of the standard required.

If they are good enough they’d be playing ahead of the players in front of them.

This is Hibs we are talking about. It shouldn’t be easy for anyone to get into the Hibs team.

[calumhibee1]

As a comparison

Cummings had played 150 games and scored 71 goals before he was 22

Porteous has played 48, had a few bad injuries and is still 8 months from being 22

Shaw who ultimately wasn’t good enough had played 65 games before 22

Handling who was nowhere near good enough had played 65

Wotherspoon had played over 100 by 22

That’s not including any games these guys played out on loan, they’re all appearances at Hibs.

There’s absolutely no chance guys like Murray and Stirling having not made a first team appearance at 22 will be making it at Hibs imo.

[HendoDelivered]

As a comparison

Cummings had played 150 games and scored 71 goals before he was 22

Porteous has played 48, had a few bad injuries and is still 8 months from being 22

Shaw who ultimately wasn’t good enough had played 65 games before 22

Handling who was nowhere near good enough had played 65

Wotherspoon had played over 100 by 22

That’s not including any games these guys played out on loan, they’re all appearances at Hibs.

There’s absolutely no chance guys like Murray and Stirling having not made a first team appearance at 22 will be making it at Hibs imo.

:agree:

[Alex Trager]

I'm glad you posted this thread because academy products getting more game time could well be an important element of our approach to the new season.

I have only really seen highlights of the youth games, but try to read up on the feedback given by the loanee clubs when we send players out. Overall, this means I've got a fairly limited knowledge of our young players but, like most fans, I've a fair idea of who's being touted to make the 'next step.'

I'm excited to see some of the so-called older youth players during pre season, hopefully this is their time. I know Graeme Mathie is an advocate for giving opportunities to late blooming youth candidates and has spoken openly about being conscientious of the development of players who are at the oldest end of particular age brackets. I think this is a sensible approach and has been vindicated a number of times, with countless players only really hitting their physical and technical stride in their twenties.

Whatever happens, I'm wishing all the young players the best of luck, their success is our success and it would be a really timely moment to blood some promising players.

Any players in particular that come to mind when you mention coming to the fore in their twenties?

Mcgregor comes to mind.

I think Vardy was late in turning pro as well

[The Modfather]

Would we have been worse playing out youngsters? Yes, probably. Recently they haven’t been of the standard required.

If they are good enough they’d be playing ahead of the players in front of them.

This is Hibs we are talking about. It shouldn’t be easy for anyone to get into the Hibs team.

I did say promote the youngsters rather than signing those that I listed. So was meaning our youngsters getting the odd game here or there, and potentially taking their chance. Rather than talking about sticking them straight into the first team.

I just don’t see the benefit from the list of faceless short time signings I’ve listed rather than giving a youngster a chance. If they turn out not to be good enough, so be it. I’d prefer that to below average stop gaps as we’ve gone from 4th - 5th - 6th.

[The Modfather]

Any players in particular that come to mind when you mention coming to the fore in their twenties?

Mcgregor comes to mind.

I think Vardy was late in turning pro as well

Feel dirty for saying it, but Hartley.

The list of youngsters we’ve let go who we regret is a short one. Arguably the likes of Booth & Wotherspoon, who went on to have solid careers, but not much more than that. The list of youngsters we’ve kept for too long probably far exceeds the list of those late bloomers in their 20s.

[Vault Boy]

Any players in particular that come to mind when you mention coming to the fore in their twenties?

Mcgregor comes to mind.

I think Vardy was late in turning pro as well

Two good examples. Some more of the famous ones would be Ian Wright, Cisse, Drogba, Klose, Luca Toni, Grosso, Adruiz, Prso, Dzeko... That list could go on ad nauseam I'm sure.

There have also been quite a few players in Scotland who have only really been given their chance to step up to full-time professional football after being signed by the likes of ICT or Hamilton. I know his name is cursed in these parts, but Butcher used to sign loads of players in their early twenties who ended up being decent for Caley.

[CapitalGreen]

Any players in particular that come to mind when you mention coming to the fore in their twenties?

Mcgregor comes to mind.

I think Vardy was late in turning pro as well

Our reported top transfer targets this summer include Kevin Nesbitt who was released by Partick Thistle at 21 years old and Alex Gogic who released by Swansea at 22 years old and had 0 first team professional appearances to his name for any club. I’m not sure how they would fit into the narrative that if players haven’t been first team regulars by the time they hit their 20s they definitely won’t make it at the club.

[Unseen work]

I don’t think anyone is saying they won’t make it as footballers, but maybe the won’t make it at Hibs.

A lot of the guys brought up have dropped down a level, played regular game, gained confidence and then got their big move.

Alot of it is a mentality thing, will some of the 22 year olds feel like they’ve a chance with us? I’d doubt it. If they then went to a Dunfermline etc they might then feel like one of the better players and really kick on.

For example Fraser Murray has Allan and Mallan at least both ahead of him for the CAM spot, both are far far better players than him. It must be hard to convince yourself you will get a chance and be able to hold it down.

[J-C]

As a comparison

Cummings had played 150 games and scored 71 goals before he was 22

Porteous has played 48, had a few bad injuries and is still 8 months from being 22

Shaw who ultimately wasn’t good enough had played 65 games before 22

Handling who was nowhere near good enough had played 65

Wotherspoon had played over 100 by 22

That’s not including any games these guys played out on loan, they’re all appearances at Hibs.

There’s absolutely no chance guys like Murray and Stirling having not made a first team appearance at 22 will be making it at Hibs imo.

Always love the positivity on here, tell me how many times have you seen Stirling, EMurray, Campbell etc. I remember seeing Stirling last preseason and thought he looked good and composed at DM. We're in a situation where money is tight and some of these players have to start stepping up, if they can't do it now, then we can say they're not good enough.

[Speedway]

With the announcement of some development players being pushed into the first team, What impact if any can we expect?

Would be interested to hear views on people who see them regularly and have a bit of knowledge on them.

Ben Stirling - 22 Next month and never been on the bench in a competitive game. Albeit Iv been impressed with him when Iv seen him pre season and the winter break game against the Dutch team. At 21/22 though you expect him to have played a lot more competitive football.

Innes Murray - Another 22 year old that hasn’t even made appearances in friendlies. Will he have a chance?

Kevin Dabrowski - Heard good things about him and supposedly impressed at Cowdenbeath, could be be our back up? Again he’s 22 so needs to be playing games

Ryan Shanley - 19 year old striker who signed a 3 year extension in January so someone must rate him, is he ready?

Callum Yeates - 18 year old left back who I don’t know much about at all, any good?

Josh Doig - Appeared very calm and assured in pre season and got rave reviews and compared to Robertson which I feel is unfair pressure on the lad. I’m sure I read hibs see him as a centre half however not a full back?


Although we’re ‘promoting’ players to the first team, the majority are 22 and should have been training/ making appearances years ago if they had anything about them. Especially when you consider Murray, Mackie, Gullan, Shaw and Porteous are all similar age or younger and are (were for Shaw) ahead of them, with the jury still out on the majority of them.

Can we realistically see the younger players make a meaningful and impressive contribution this season?

For me id like to see our youngsters exposed to first team football at a much, much younger age.

Don't forget Tommy Block. He should be breaking through by now too.

[calumhibee1]

Always love the positivity on here, tell me how many times have you seen Stirling, EMurray, Campbell etc. I remember seeing Stirling last preseason and thought he looked good and composed at DM. We're in a situation where money is tight and some of these players have to start stepping up, if they can't do it now, then we can say they're not good enough.

I don’t need to have seen them. They’re 22 years old (or near enough in Stirling’s case) and never played for the first team. That tells me all I need to know. We’ve had 3 different managers over the period they should have been looking to make a breakthrough and not one of they managers has had them anywhere near the first team. We can already safely say they’re not good enough imo.

Josh Campbell is nearly 2 years younger so I wouldn’t necessarily include him with Murray and Stirling - although I’d highly doubt he’ll make it either by his lack of being anywhere near the first team as well.

[J-C]

I don’t need to have seen them. They’re 22 years old (or near enough in Stirling’s case) and never played for the first team. That tells me all I need to know. We’ve had 3 different managers over the period they should have been looking to make a breakthrough and not one of they managers has had them anywhere near the first team. We can already safely say they’re not good enough imo.

Josh Campbell is nearly 2 years younger so I wouldn’t necessarily include him with Murray and Stirling - although I’d highly doubt he’ll make it either by his lack of being anywhere near the first team as well.

Jeez, I'm glad you're not our manager.

[calumhibee1]

Jeez, I'm glad you're not our manager.

Why do you think these guys have made 0 first team appearances and are never even on the bench by the age of 22? Like I said earlier, near enough everyone who has come through our youth set up to the first team - whether they’ve went on and done well or been moved on because they’re not good enough- had made lots of appearances by their age. What’s different with these two if they’re potentially good enough?

Whether it sounds harsh or not, history would suggest in football that anyone without any first team appearances by 22 years old isn’t going to make it at the level they’re at. They may drop down a level and eventually build back up to it, but players very rarely ever manage to break through at 22 having been nowhere near the first team before that.

[B.H.F.C]

Two good examples. Some more of the famous ones would be Ian Wright, Cisse, Drogba, Klose, Luca Toni, Grosso, Adruiz, Prso, Dzeko... That list could go on ad nauseam I'm sure.

There have also been quite a few players in Scotland who have only really been given their chance to step up to full-time professional football after being signed by the likes of ICT or Hamilton. I know his name is cursed in these parts, but Butcher used to sign loads of players in their early twenties who ended up being decent for Caley.

There is countless examples of players kicking in well in to their twenties. But, irrespective of the level they’d been playing at, I’d bet the vast majority of them had a good bit of football under their belts by the time they were 22. I think that’s the big problem for the likes of Stirling and Murray, they’ve not really got that. It’s not so much a case of developing later, more getting started later.

[J-C]

Why do you think these guys have made 0 first team appearances and are never even on the bench by the age of 22? Like I said earlier, near enough everyone who has come through our youth set up to the first team - whether they’ve went on and done well or been moved on because they’re not good enough- had made lots of appearances by their age. What’s different with these two if they’re potentially good enough?

Whether it sounds harsh or not, history would suggest in football that anyone without any first team appearances by 22 years old isn’t going to make it at the level they’re at. They may drop down a level and eventually build back up to it, but players very rarely ever manage to break through at 22 having been nowhere near the first team before that.

What about Gullan, 21 in a couple if weeks, 42 senior games 9 goals and everyone wants to give him a chance.
Why is he being talked up as good enough and not the others?

[brog]

I don’t need to have seen them. They’re 22 years old (or near enough in Stirling’s case) and never played for the first team. That tells me all I need to know. We’ve had 3 different managers over the period they should have been looking to make a breakthrough and not one of they managers has had them anywhere near the first team. We can already safely say they’re not good enough imo.

Josh Campbell is nearly 2 years younger so I wouldn’t necessarily include him with Murray and Stirling - although I’d highly doubt he’ll make it either by his lack of being anywhere near the first team as well.

Well both Campbell & Murray have played for the 1st team & Stirling has been on the bench, including against Celtc IIRC, on several occasions so your comment bolded above is palpable nonsense. I would also bet that virtually every top flight SPFL club has 1 or players that didn't play at anywhere near that level until they were at least 21. We have Boyle, 21+ & Daz, 25 off the top of my head. And yes I'm aware they played league football but I doubt Cowdenbeath & Montrose, in their cases, would be a significantly higher level than our development team.
Incidentally, the fact that we've had 3 different managers is a hindrance to the development of young players as new managers tend to go with established players or players they know.

[calumhibee1]

What about Gullan, 21 in a couple if weeks, 42 senior games 9 goals and everyone wants to give him a chance.
Why is he being talked up as good enough and not the others?

What?

As you say, Gullan has played plenty senior games, scoring goals and came in at 20 year old last season to look worthy of a start for Hibs. That’s exactly what I’d expect of a youngster.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

Bear in mind Fraser Murray has also been set back with a few long term lay offs.

[calumhibee1]

Well both Campbell & Murray have played for the 1st team & Stirling has been on the bench, including against Celtc IIRC, on several occasions so your comment bolded above is palpable nonsense. I would also bet that virtually every top flight SPFL club has 1 or players that didn't play at anywhere near that level until they were at least 21. We have Boyle, 21+ & Daz, 25 off the top of my head. And yes I'm aware they played league football but I doubt Cowdenbeath & Montrose, in their cases, would be a significantly higher level than our development team.
Incidentally, the fact that we've had 3 different managers is a hindrance to the development of young players as new managers tend to go with established players or players they know.

Murray played 3 minutes against Turriff in the Challenge Cup 3 years ago. Stirling hasn’t made a first team appearance and has been on the bench for two league games. They’ve got 4 league seats on the bench between them with Stirling having another few in the league cup groups which we basically use as pre season. They’re 22. Forgive me for not seeing that as a sign of potential.

Boyle left Montrose at 19 having played 69 games and scored 25 goals. By the time he was 22 he was playing for Hibs and had made about 150 first appearances working his way through the leagues. Daz was playing regular football and worked his way through the leagues. These two will probably go and find their level in the lower leagues/juniors, they might even end up back in the top tier if they do well. But there’s absolutely no chance they’re making it here imo.

[Danderhall Hibs]

What?

As you say, Gullan has played plenty senior games, scoring goals and came in at 20 year old last season to look worthy of a start for Hibs. That’s exactly what I’d expect of a youngster.

:agree: totally agree with your posts.

There are exceptions to the rule but in the main if you’re not in the first team by 20 you’re not going to be.

[calumhibee1]

:agree: totally agree with your posts.

There are exceptions to the rule but in the main if you’re not in the first team by 20 you’re not going to be.

Yup. There’s always exceptions. But the fact we’ve saw Drogba and Klose who done this nearly 20 years ago and Ian Wright who was about 30 years ago cited as examples (and even then, they were playing first team football) would suggest they’re few and far between.

[Ozyhibby]

Our reported top transfer targets this summer include Kevin Nesbitt who was released by Partick Thistle at 21 years old and Alex Gogic who released by Swansea at 22 years old and had 0 first team professional appearances to his name for any club. I’m not sure how they would fit into the narrative that if players haven’t been first team regulars by the time they hit their 20s they definitely won’t make it at the club.

Partick were in the premiership when they released Nisbet and he still hasn’t made it back there. He had played a lot more games than our guys though.
Swansea were in the EPL when they released Gogic and he still hasn’t made his way back to that level either.


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[brog]

Murray played 3 minutes against Turriff in the Challenge Cup 3 years ago. Stirling hasn’t made a first team appearance and has been on the bench for two league games. They’ve got 4 league seats on the bench between them with Stirling having another few in the league cup groups which we basically use as pre season. They’re 22. Forgive me for not seeing that as a sign of potential.

Boyle left Montrose at 19 having played 69 games and scored 25 goals. By the time he was 22 he was playing for Hibs and had made about 150 first appearances working his way through the leagues. Daz was playing regular football and worked his way through the leagues. These two will probably go and find their level in the lower leagues/juniors, they might even end up back in the top tier if they do well. But there’s absolutely no chance they’re making it here imo.

Fraser Murray has made 29 1st team appearances, Josh Campbell 2 & Ben Stirling has been on the bench at least 5 times. That's very different from you saying they hadn't been near the 1st team.

[calumhibee1]

Fraser Murray has made 29 1st team appearances, Josh Campbell 2 & Ben Stirling has been on the bench at least 5 times. That's very different from you saying they hadn't been near the 1st team.

I’m talking about Innes Murray, not Fraser Murray. Fraser Murray isn’t one of the development players that have just been promoted to the first team.

[ancient hibee]

I wonder where Jamie Vardy was when he was 21/22?

[calumhibee1]

I wonder where Jamie Vardy was when he was 21/22?

As Danderhall said, there’s always an exception to the rule in sport. The fact that all the exceptions have either long since retired (Ian Wright, Drogba, Cisse, Klose, Luca Toni) and so we’re talking 20 or so years ago or are in the twilight of their careers (Vardy, Dzeko) and so we’re talking 10+ years ago show how often it actually happens though.

[wookie70]

Sometimes it just takes opportunity for someone to succeed. I agree with the general consensus that if players aren't playing regularly by 22 then it is unlikely they will be making it at our level. That being said we needs numbers in the squad and development players should be the first port of call. I hope that some of them step up and realise this is a great opportunity. I'd cite Doidge as an example of how quickly things can change. He is no better than the striker that looked like he couldn't hit a barn door for months. However, a management change and a bit of luck and all of a sudden he is in the running for POTY.

[Vault Boy]

Let's add Kevin Nisbet to the list of late bloomers. :wink:

[jgl07]

I could add Tony Book. He was playing non-League football at 29 with Bath City and working as a bricklayer when Malcolm Allison signed him for Second Division Plymouth. Two years later, Allison persuaded Manchester City to sign him (almost certainly after lying about Book's age to knock a couple of years off).

He played for City for the next eight seasons winning every domestic honour and one European trophy, making 294 appearances.

OK this may be rare but if you can find another Ian Wright or Jamie Vardy, it is a worthwhile exersise.

[McD]

Sam Cosgrove had played 8 league games for his own club before he joined Aberdeen, at 21. Now the subject of a multi million pound bid.

if Gogic signs, we'll still have need for other players who can play in that area, for injury and suspension cover at the least. and we’ve collectively spoken at length about how the defence hasn’t pulled up any trees recently. Both of those situations say that Stirling should be around the first team this season at least.

Could Shanley be our 4th forward? Could Mackie press for game time at left mid? 2 young left backs to pressure Stevenson, or at least offer positive backup?

im not saying they’ll make it at Hibs, but this season should be seen as a great opportunity to for them and by them

[JDT]

What's the chat with Tommy Block? I would've thought he'd be training with the first team. Also Sean Mackie, is he injured?

[GreenCastle]

I watched quite a few development games and sometimes it’s hard to gauge how good these players are until they play with better players around them.

At the same time a good player usually stands out.

Gullan impressed me with his power and direct style so not surprised he has been involved. Shaw scored goals but don’t think he was physical enough.

Fraser Murray definitely still has lots to offer - again needs to be used in a position that suits with experience around him.

I would hope Ben Stirling , Tommy Block, Campbell can be involved - I think they could all do ok - but chances are they won’t get into the current midfield.

Innes Murray - not sure - can be good but also seen games where didn’t effect play enough.

The keeper Paddy - just not sure - doesn’t give me enough confidence.

Think Dawbroski has a better chance of being back up.

Footballers do develop late at times but several of them need to step up and take an opportunity or they will be moved on I would imagine.

[overdrive]

What's the chat with Tommy Block? I would've thought he'd be training with the first team. Also Sean Mackie, is he injured?

Sean Mackie is injured but he'll already be considered a member of the first team squad.

[Brightside]

What's the chat with Tommy Block? I would've thought he'd be training with the first team. Also Sean Mackie, is he injured?

I've not seen anything to suggest Block should be a first team player.