Riots in Stuttgart and Police Assaults in Brixton

[Keith_M]

There was a riot in the middle of Stuttgart a couple of days ago, with shops seriously vandalized and looted and a large number of Police were assaulted (some of the assaults were actually really vicious). This all happened because the Police were called to a street party in the city centre and arrested one young guy for possession of drugs.
BBC Article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53126464)


I just saw that something similar happened in Brixton, though the damage seems to have been restricted to assaults on the police (twenty police officers injured)
BBC Article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53176472)


I realise that a lot of those people were either drugged up or very drunk but, is it the case that some people now consider the Police 'fair game' because of recent events in the US?

:confused:


I ask this because I've seen a massive increase in political slogans, either in people's windows or graffiti, and quite a number of those (at least around where I live) have been aimed at the police, occasionally accompanied by the All Cops Are B******s slogan.

[Sir David Gray]

There was a riot in the middle of Stuttgart a couple of days ago, with shops seriously vandalized and looted and a large number of Police were assaulted (some of the assaults were actually really vicious). This all happened because the Police were called to a street party in the city centre and arrested one young guy for possession of drugs.
BBC Article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53126464)


I just saw that something similar happened in Brixton, though the damage seems to have been restricted to assaults on the police (twenty police officers injured)
BBC Article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53176472)


I realise that a lot of those people were either drugged up or very drunk but, is it the case that some people now consider the Police 'fair game' because of recent events in the US?

:confused:


I ask this because I've seen a massive increase in political slogans, either in people's windows or graffiti, and quite a number of those (at least around where I live) have been aimed at the police, occasionally accompanied by the All Cops Are B******s slogan.

Yep a general anti police sentiment does seem to be on the rise.

I often wonder who the ACAB crowd would call, and expect to help them, in the event of an emergency? Would they still think ACAB then?

It seems like a lot of these people think that the police are fair game for being attacked, even when they're responding to criminal acts being committed. They seem to be under the impression that these people should be allowed to get away with any kind of lawlessness without any consequences.

[Berwickhibby]

Yep a general anti police sentiment does seem to be on the rise.

I often wonder who the ACAB crowd would call, and expect to help them, in the event of an emergency? Would they still think ACAB then?

It seems like a lot of these people think that the police are fair game for being attacked, even when they're responding to criminal acts being committed. They seem to be under the impression that these people should be allowed to get away with any kind of lawlessness without any consequences.

The country is now totally screwed, Government declare emergency in Bournemouth as to many people are on the beach but a full riot attacking police officers is a street party.

[Sir David Gray]

The country is now totally screwed, Government declare emergency in Bournemouth as to many people are on the beach but a full riot attacking police officers is a street party.

Yep mental.

[EAZY-ME]

The cops can't do anything right these days...... if they go in heavy handed they are slaughtered.. if they use the soft approach then they are slaughtered..

[McD]

The cops can't do anything right these days...... if they go in heavy handed they are slaughtered.. if they use the soft approach then they are slaughtered..


there'll be a knock on affect, down the line, when very few want to work for the police and we're struggling to get the necessary numbers.

the ACAB crowd will then No doubt be the loudest complaining about people not getting the support and help they need in times of crisis

[Rocky]

there'll be a knock on affect, down the line, when very few want to work for the police and we're struggling to get the necessary numbers.

the ACAB crowd will then No doubt be the loudest complaining about people not getting the support and help they need in times of crisis

Maybe, but this thread suggests the police need to look at themselves too

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1275443016807800833?s=19

[Berwickhibby]

there'll be a knock on affect, down the line, when very few want to work for the police and we're struggling to get the necessary numbers.

the ACAB crowd will then No doubt be the loudest complaining about people not getting the support and help they need in times of crisis

Hopefully the next victim of crime be it murder victim, rape victim, domestic abuse, robbery victim, assault victim, home burglary victim, child abuse/safety still have officers to investigate and serve rather than worry about some twitter post.

[Rocky]

Hopefully the next victim of crime be it murder victim, rape victim, domestic abuse, robbery victim, assault victim, home burglary victim, child abuse/safety still have officers to investigate and serve rather than worry about some twitter post.

Do the results of that YouGov poll not worry you?

[Berwickhibby]

Do the results of that YouGov poll not worry you?

Nope...any discrimination including positive is not right....the best person for the post/promotion should get it.... male/female/Black/white is irrelevant.... quality is more important imho

[Rocky]

Nope...any discrimination including positive is not right....the best person for the post/promotion should get it.... male/female/Black/white is irrelevant.... quality is more important imho

There are three posts in the thread. And regardless of your opinion on any of them the fact that the police appear to be so out of sync with the general populace should at least be considered and not dismissed out of hand.

[Berwickhibby]

There are three posts in the thread. And regardless of your opinion on any of them the fact that the police appear to be so out of sync with the general populace should at least be considered and not dismissed out of hand.

Perhaps due to the cuts, the amount of horrible calls that the police deal with, things that you could not probably imagine. Thanks to political correctness the police are employing senior ranks straight from University etc that have never walked the best or dealt with a ******g angry cat.

Like any disciplined organisation with ranks seeing anyone being promoted or giving another job who is not as qualified as someone else is still discrimination.

[Rocky]

Perhaps due to the cuts, the amount of horrible calls that the police deal with, things that you could not probably imagine. Thanks to political correctness the police are employing senior ranks straight from University etc that have never walked the best or dealt with a ******g angry cat.

Like any disciplined organisation with ranks seeing anyone being promoted or giving another job who is not as qualified as someone else is still discrimination.

I mentioned there are three tweets in the thread but perhaps you can't see them. The other two say:

Police officers are also more likely than the public (41% to 26%) to believe that stereotypes about other groups of people are usually true https://t.co/2n1PGuV4a2 https://t.co/vc14EFN1SC

The majority of police officers (55%) think that human rights laws have been bad for British justice, compared to 37% of officers who see them as a force for good https://t.co/2n1PGuV4a2 https://t.co/C1BkOkD88S

[Sir David Gray]

Nope...any discrimination including positive is not right....the best person for the post/promotion should get it.... male/female/Black/white is irrelevant.... quality is more important imho

Agreed.

As someone who is part of a minority group (I'm disabled) I don't want to get a job because the company's got a quota to meet as part of some box ticking exercise.

I want to get the job because I've given a good impression of myself in my CV/application and after my interview they've gone "Wow that guy's the best person we've interviewed all day, we need to hire him."

[Berwickhibby]

I mentioned there are three tweets in the thread but perhaps you can't see them. The other two say:

Police officers are also more likely than the public (41% to 26%) to believe that stereotypes about other groups of people are usually true https://t.co/2n1PGuV4a2 https://t.co/vc14EFN1SC

The majority of police officers (55%) think that human rights laws have been bad for British justice, compared to 37% of officers who see them as a force for good https://t.co/2n1PGuV4a2 https://t.co/C1BkOkD88S

I agree, everybody stereotypes to a degree, and police probably more than others, why because police tend to deal with the ****tiest end of society and its a defence to avoid being assaulted.

European Human Rights Laws were written by lawyers for lawyers...the maximum a victim gets is £10k ...or it was, where the lawyers and barristers can earn thousands. Time those rights were legislated effectively with U.K./Scottish law.

[Rocky]

Agreed.

As someone who is part of a minority group (I'm disabled) I don't want to get a job because the company's got a quota to meet as part of some box ticking exercise.

I want to get the job because I've given a good impression of myself in my CV/application and after my interview they've gone "Wow that guy's the best person we've interviewed all day, we need to hire him."

Can't say I'm surprised that you've also joined in to agree with a response to a point that wasn't even being made. The point is the difference between the views of the police and the populace, not the merits of the individual argument.

[Sir David Gray]

Can't say I'm surprised that you've also joined in to agree with a response to a point that wasn't even being made. The point is the difference between the views of the police and the populace, not the merits of the individual argument.

I saw a post on this thread that I agreed with and decided to share my thoughts in response to that post, which is allowed.

[Just_Jimmy]

There are three posts in the thread. And regardless of your opinion on any of them the fact that the police appear to be so out of sync with the general populace should at least be considered and not dismissed out of hand.A percentage of 349 GB police officers asked.

That's not even a borough in the Met.

Hardly representative.

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[Berwickhibby]

Can't say I'm surprised that you've also joined in to agree with a response to a point that wasn't even being made. The point is the difference between the views of the police and the populace, not the merits of the individual argument.

Actually the post is about police being attacked, and appear fair game for some. You added some twitter posts but I doubt the lads and lassies working 24/7 shifts going call to call serving the public actually care about some twitter poll. Getting home without being attacked is probably the highest priority just now.

[Rocky]

A percentage of 349 GB police officers asked.

That's not even a borough in the Met.

Hardly representative.

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Predictable

[Just_Jimmy]

PredictableWhat is? How many police officers are in the UK? How is a percentage of 349 of them representative?

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[Rocky]

Actually the post is about police being attacked, and appear fair game for some. You added some twitter posts but I doubt the lads and lassies working 24/7 shifts going call to call serving the public actually care about some twitter poll. Getting home without being attacked is probably the highest priority just now.

I added statistically significant poll research which happened to be on Twitter posts. You dismissed it. Fair dos.

[Berwickhibby]

I added statistically significant poll research which happened to be on Twitter posts. You dismissed it. Fair dos.

Go back read my responses I answered them, I personally think they are bollocks but I did not dismiss them

[Sir David Gray]

What is? How many police officers are in the UK? How is a percentage of 349 of them representative?

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There's around 150,000 police officers in the UK.

I was going to make a similar comment but didn't see the point.

[Rocky]

What is? How many police officers are in the UK? How is a percentage of 349 of them representative?

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Q. Why does sample size matter?
A. Because the risk of random sampling error is related to sample size: the smaller the sample, the greater the risk of such error. On a sample of 550, we can be sure that, 19 times out of 20, the true figure – that is, the figure that would have been obtained had the whole population been polled using the same methods – is within 4% of the published figure. Random error on a sample of 1,000 is up to 3%, on 1,500 up to 2.5% and on 2,000 up to 2%. Larger samples also allow the views of subgroups, such as women voters or Conservative supporters, to be measured more accurately.

65 vs 36 is probably a sampling error right enough

[Just_Jimmy]

There's around 150,000 police officers in the UK.

I was going to make a similar comment but didn't see the point.Exactly. Even if 100% of that 349 agreed with something, it's not even close to representative of the profession as a whole.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[Rocky]

The telling fact isn't the survey, the quality of the questions, or the statistical significance. It's the direction you took the discussion.

[Sir David Gray]

The telling fact isn't the survey, the quality of the questions, or the statistical significance. It's the direction you took the discussion.

The direction who took the discussion?

[Rocky]

The direction who took the discussion?

Anyone who either questioned the validity or went off on a tangent instead of being curious and wishing to better understand the reasons for the differences. If I had a team of ten people my first instinct would be to dig into those results (in an open minded way), not to rubbish them or question their statistical significance.

[Sir David Gray]

Anyone who either questioned the validity or went off on a tangent instead of being curious and wishing to better understand the reasons for the differences. If I had a team of ten people my first instinct would be to dig into those results (in an open minded way), not to rubbish them or question their statistical significance.

What's your understanding of the reasons for the difference?

[Rocky]

What's your understanding of the reasons for the difference?

I don't know but if I was a police officer I'd be personally troubled by the fact that my colleagues appear to hold such different views from the public.

As a member of the public I could easily jump to the conclusion that the police have a higher tendency towards racism than the general public. So it would be great if people with direct experience of policing could show some curiosity about the results rather than dismissing them. Otherwise there's a risk they could reinforce the perception.

[Stairway 2 7]

100% of the British public think the survey is too small to be valid, we'll I asked two people and both said yes

[Keith_M]

Maybe, but this thread suggests the police need to look at themselves too

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/1275443016807800833?s=19


I'm not going to argue with anything on that thread, as I literally have no idea what the views of the average police officer are (other than the three that I know personally, who all deplore racism) but could you maybe explain how it relates to a thread on people physically attacking Police Officers?

:dunno:

I understand that everybody has different views on the matter, but it does kind of come over as as an attempt to justify those attacks on police officers in situations where they were only doing their jobs (which some people might describe as 'victim blaming').


As I said, I could be wrong, and that wasn't your intention, but that's definitely how it read to me.

[Rocky]

I'm not going to argue with anything on that thread, as I literally have no idea what the views of the average police officer are (other than the three that I know personally, who all deplore racism) but could you maybe explain how it relates to a thread on people physically attacking Police Officers?

:dunno:

I understand that everybody has different views on the matter, but it does kind of come over as as an attempt to justify those attacks on police officers in situations where they were only doing their jobs (which some people might describe as 'victim blaming').


As I said, I could be wrong, and that wasn't your intention, but that's definitely how it read to me.
Did you read the post I was replying to? It had absolutely nothing to do with physical attacks on the police.

[McD]

Did you read the post I was replying to? It had absolutely nothing to do with physical attacks on the police.


Acutally, the post you replied to had a lot to do with physical attacks on the police, it was my post.


I was making a point that if these kinds of attacks continue, then it will likely mean that as time goes on, less and less people will want to become police officers and therefore we could at some point struggle to have the numbers of police officers required.


I followed that by speculating that the same people abusing the police will probably be the first ones to complain about not getting police help when they need it if that happened.

[Rocky]

Acutally, the post you replied to had a lot to do with physical attacks on the police, it was my post.


I was making a point that if these kinds of attacks continue, then it will likely mean that as time goes on, less and less people will want to become police officers and therefore we could at some point struggle to have the numbers of police officers required.


I followed that by speculating that the same people abusing the police will probably be the first ones to complain about not getting police help when they need it if that happened.

Your post was replying to a post about the police being criticised for being either too heavy handed or too soft in their tactics. There's no reference to physical attacks in either your post or the one you were replying to. If your post was intended to be about physical attacks that certainly wasn't clear.

I replied to a post which to me very clearly related to criticisms of the police by suggesting that the police need to look inwards as well as outwards if they wish to reduce those criticism levels and encourage recruitment.

For the avoidance of doubt if I'd thought for one second that your post had anything to do with physical attacks I most certainly wouldn't have responded with anything that suggested physical attacks are in any way justified.

[McD]

Your post was replying to a post about the police being criticised for being either too heavy handed or too soft in their tactics. There's no reference to physical attacks in either your post or the one you were replying to. If your post was intended to be about physical attacks that certainly wasn't clear.

I replied to a post which to me very clearly related to criticisms of the police by suggesting that the police need to look inwards as well as outwards if they wish to reduce those criticism levels and encourage recruitment.

For the avoidance of doubt if I'd thought for one second that your post had anything to do with physical attacks I most certainly wouldn't have responded with anything that suggested physical attacks are in any way justified.





I didn't make it really clear I was referring to attacks, so fair point.


In regards to the police looking inwards about reducing criticism, I would agree (regardless of the stats you referred to). Ultimately its a job where you are going to encounter pressured and dangerous situations that will require immediate judgement of that situation and ability to respond. If those responses aren't deemed appropriate, then criticism will come.

There will always most likely be a grey area between what police deem the correct response and what the public deem the correct response (especially in highly charged times as these), but if everything that's going on encourages the police to reassess their methods and training, then that can only be positive. Critical and honest self evaluation.

Lastly, I didn't interpret anything you've said across this thread as suggesting physical attacks were justified, simply that collectively there is no one side completely lacking in fault :aok:

[silverhibee]

Think it could be a tough shift for the police in the UK this weekend, weather permitting. :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

You won't have to worry about officers soon, after Khan reducing the Met's budget today by £110m which will in return filter down to having less personnel. Group 4 anyone?

[Keith_M]

Did you read the post I was replying to? It had absolutely nothing to do with physical attacks on the police.


I did read that post and I disagree, as it was obvious from the context of what was being discussed.

If that wasn't your intention, then I accept that, it's just the way it appeared to me (and apparently others reading the thread).

[Rocky]

I did read that post and I disagree, as it was obvious from the context of what was being discussed.

If that wasn't your intention, then I accept that, it's just the way it appeared to me (and apparently others reading the thread).
Seems odd that you'd continue to disagree when the poster himself agrees but fair enough.

[Rocky]

[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]




I didn't make it really clear I was referring to attacks, so fair point.


In regards to the police looking inwards about reducing criticism, I would agree (regardless of the stats you referred to). Ultimately its a job where you are going to encounter pressured and dangerous situations that will require immediate judgement of that situation and ability to respond. If those responses aren't deemed appropriate, then criticism will come.

There will always most likely be a grey area between what police deem the correct response and what the public deem the correct response (especially in highly charged times as these), but if everything that's going on encourages the police to reassess their methods and training, then that can only be positive. Critical and honest self evaluation.

Lastly, I didn't interpret anything you've said across this thread as suggesting physical attacks were justified, simply that collectively there is no one side completely lacking in fault :aok:
Apologies I didn't respond to this earlier. I've read back the thread and can see how your post could have been intended to say that people might be put off joining the police due to being afraid of being physically attacked. You've already acknowledged that the post you replied to meant that this was unclear, which is absolutely fair.

When I read it I assumed it was related to police criticism having an effect on the force's ability to attract recruitment candidates, which is why I posted the links I did. It seemed to me the problem that was being discussed was the police's ability to attract candidates for jobs. Based on what you've said I clearly picked the wrong post to reply to, but my post was 100% intended to highlight other reasons why the police may struggle to attract candidates, and absolutely nothing to do with justifying violence against them.

I consider myself to be a very tolerant person, and the culture of an organisation is critical to me deciding whether I'd like to work there. The stats that I posted showed that, on the face of it, the police are fundamentally misaligned to my principles, hence based on those stats that would put me off applying to the police force. The responses I received helped to reinforce that view.

To your points in your post I've quoted here - I was never talking about police tactics, but I accept that is also unclear because your post that I replied to was a reply to a post about criticism of police tactics. For what it's worth I see loads of criticism of police tactics and I take all of them with a pinch of salt. No-one can know the right tactics to deal with a particular situation without knowing all the facts. The Bristol police fella explained well the reasons for not intervening in the statue situation. I even accept the police tactics at Easter Road when they permit vile sectarian signing in the away end, even though I detest it.

Ultimately, the police do a very hard job and will always attract criticism. This should not be allowed to be a get out of jail free card for poor behaviour and bigoted views though, and I'd very much hope that the good men and women within the force would be absolutely supportive of identifying and either educating or weeding out those who need it. The ones who read statistically sound surveys and attempt to discredit rather than understand them are a concern, and they don't do the public perception of the force any favours at all.

[Keith_M]

Seems odd that you'd continue to disagree when the poster himself agrees but fair enough.


I think the fact that you've posted so many words criticizing the police but not a single word of condemnation of the people attacking innocent police officers (of all races)... which is the theme of the thread... pretty much backs up my opinion of your viewpoint.

[Colr]

There was a riot in the middle of Stuttgart a couple of days ago, with shops seriously vandalized and looted and a large number of Police were assaulted (some of the assaults were actually really vicious). This all happened because the Police were called to a street party in the city centre and arrested one young guy for possession of drugs.
BBC Article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53126464)


I just saw that something similar happened in Brixton, though the damage seems to have been restricted to assaults on the police (twenty police officers injured)
BBC Article (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-53176472)


I realise that a lot of those people were either drugged up or very drunk but, is it the case that some people now consider the Police 'fair game' because of recent events in the US?

:confused:


I ask this because I've seen a massive increase in political slogans, either in people's windows or graffiti, and quite a number of those (at least around where I live) have been aimed at the police, occasionally accompanied by the All Cops Are B******s slogan.

The anti-social behaviour has been appalling in London since all order broke down following the Barnard Castle incident.

[Keith_M]

The anti-social behaviour has been appalling in London since all order broke down following the Barnard Castle incident.


It seems to be the same in a number of places.

Some Police have reported that when they've spoken to people regarding large social gatherings with little to no social distancing, or traveling large distances for social reasons (e.g. to go to the beach), that the most common response is to mention Cummings.

There's been a big increase in noise at night where I live as well, with a number of people having very loud house parties. Fortunately it's only been noisy so far, no violence or anything.

[Colr]

It seems to be the same in a number of places.

Some Police have reported that when they've spoken to people regarding large social gatherings with little to no social distancing, or traveling large distances for social reasons (e.g. to go to the beach), that the most common response is to mention Cummings.

There's been a big increase in noise at night where I live as well, with a number of people having very loud house parties. Fortunately it's only been noisy so far, no violence or anything.

I think it has highlighted for me the importance of our leaders being decent, morally driven people with a strong sense of propriety.

I didn’t think it mattered as much as I do now.

This is also why dishonest politicians (like Jenrick) really should resign when its discovered that they are dishonest or corrupt.

If they don’t play with a straight bat why should anyone else.

They really do set an example.

[Killiehibbie]

I think the fact that you've posted so many words criticizing the police but not a single word of condemnation of the people attacking innocent police officers (of all races)... which is the theme of the thread... pretty much backs up my opinion of your viewpoint.


Getting attacked is part and parcel of the job. If they don't like it get another job. Put it down to experience and move on.

That's at least 6 police officers opinion of taxi driving, the 6 that I spoke to in my time driving a taxi.

[Antifa Hibs]

Police, as in the entire unit not individual coppers can be bullying and petty *****. They've lost the respect of this generation i'd say.

[Hibrandenburg]

Getting attacked is part and parcel of the job. If they don't like it get another job. Put it down to experience and move on.

That's at least 6 police officers opinion of taxi driving, the 6 that I spoke to in my time driving a taxi.

Roaster.

[Hibrandenburg]

Police, as in the entire unit not individual coppers can be bullying and petty *****. They've lost the respect of this generation i'd say.

Bratwurst with steak at 220C.

[Killiehibbie]

Roaster.

Their opinion on what happens when dealing with the public but not one I agree with.