Hearts' arrogance Mk II

[Juice-Terry]

A poster recently asked why Hertz supporters are so cofident and arrogant. It got deleted (and rightfully so). Anyway, I think part of the explanation for Hertz supporters behaviour is a phenomenon called 'groupthink'.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

[Sammy7nil]

Glad it was nothing I said :greengrin

The post from Filipino was bizarre and worryimg.

I suppose I now think their arrogance comes from a sense of entitlement and as others have said probably stretches back over 100 years when they thought they were Edinburgh's team. If kickback is representative it is sad to see what a sad bunch they have become.

[Speedway]

I missed FH’s comments. What was the gist of them?

[BroxburnHibee]

I missed FH’s comments. What was the gist of them?

The thread was deleted for a reason. Don't really want to delete this too so perhaps just leave it.

[Pretty Boy]

The thing about Hearts arrogance as both a club and as fans is that it isn't a pretence, they genuinely seem to believe they are a cut above other teams in Scotland. You can point out stats, facts, major honours won, attendances and the like that all prove they are on a level with Hibs and Aberdeen and they happily ignore them and continue to proclaims they are a 'big team'. For me to really be a big club it has to be almost universally acknowledged and accepted by fans everywhere. If you have to keep reminding people then you probably don't qualify.

I always remember after the 2012 final I was in Turkey a few weeks later. The Euros were on and I ended up blethering to a Geordie guy whilst watching one of the games. Inevitably the conversation turned to football and he asked who I supported. When I said Hibs he said 'oh you'll be a happy man right now then'. He though we had won the cup. Hearts fans would have had you believe their win was the only thing any football fan was talking about from Madrid to Sydney; a guy from 100 miles down the road didn't even know who won the game.

The best thing to do is let them get on with it. You are never going to convince them using logic and pointing out they are infinitely closer in trophies won to Hibs, Aberdeen and Queens Park than they are to Rangers and Celtic. Tell them Hibs have won more major trophies than them since the 70s and their heads just about explode. They just plough on regardless.

It's definitely a superiority complex of sorts and probably does have it's roots in seeing themselves as the 'Edinburgh team'. The chronic patter of 'docksiders' probably highlights that. If their entire aspiration in football is just to be a wee bit bigger than Hibs then so be it. That's their level.

[FilipinoHibs]

Glad it was nothing I said :greengrin

The post from Filipino was bizarre and worryimg.

I suppose I now think their arrogance comes from a sense of entitlement and as others have said probably stretches back over 100 years when they thought they were Edinburgh's team. If kickback is representative it is sad to see what a sad bunch they have become.

What was bizarre and worrying about it? I listed a lot of reasons for the their arrogance which harked back to since I started Hibs in 1970. The last point I made was the demographics of our support - that the Hibs support was historically poorer than the Hearrs support. That is their root of calling us spoon burning tramps. I recieved lots of abusive replies. I pointed out these were my observations from seeing large gatherings of Hibs and Hearts fans. I stopped looking at the thread after a few abusive replies. The replies continued and I suspect the thread was closed because of the replies. I did not rise to the baiit. I am from a very poor family myself and was not making fun of poverty. As Socrates, not the footballer, said when the argument is lost the loser resorts to insults.

In fact the original poster agreed with the points I was making but was puzzled by my last point on the demographics of our support. So your comment that it was a long and bizarre post is wrong and slanderous.

[Since452]

They are arrogant for the same reasons Rangers fans are arrogant. Staunchness and a superiority complex.

[J-C]

They see themselves as the establishment club in Edinburgh, we as you know originated from the Irish immigrants in the Cowgate and this has seen them believing they have an entitlement to be better due to our histories. Through in the west the same situation occurs, it's deep rooted and a pity it still happens in this day and age.

[Monts]

I'd say it almost certainly just boils down to their record in the derby. They know that ourselves and aberdeen are a similar level, but unfortunately for us, they have had a bit of a hex over us in the derbies. This leads them to believe they are bigger and better than us, and therefore must be in the next tier of 'bigness'.

[tamig]

What was bizarre and worrying about it? I listed a lot of reasons for the their arrogance which harked back to since I started Hibs in 1970. The last point I made was the demographics of our support - that the Hibs support was historically poorer than the Hearrs support. That is their root of calling us spoon burning tramps. I recieved lots of abusive replies. I pointed out these were my observations from seeing large gatherings of Hibs and Hearts fans. I stopped looking at the thread after a few abusive replies. The replies continued and I suspect the thread was closed because of the replies. I did not rise to the baiit. I am from a very poor family myself and was not making fun of poverty. As Socrates, not the footballer, said when the argument is lost the loser resorts to insults.

In fact the original poster agreed with the points I was making but was puzzled by my last point on the demographics of our support. So your comment that it was a long and bizarre post is wrong and slanderous.
I read your post not long after you’d posted it and before it had received any replies. My immediate reaction was “WTF”. Your demographic comment was a generalisation of ridiculous proportions - no substance to it.

And your spoon burners reference has nothing to do with what folk were wearing to games in the 60s. It’s another recent favourite of theirs that has its roots in the heroin epidemic of the 80s when the arrogance and sense of self-entitlement took hold under Mercer. Nothing to do with what you saw on the terraces back in the day. Bizarre is a fair description of your thesis.

[bigwheel]

What was bizarre and worrying about it? I listed a lot of reasons for the their arrogance which harked back to since I started Hibs in 1970. The last point I made was the demographics of our support - that the Hibs support was historically poorer than the Hearrs support. That is their root of calling us spoon burning tramps. I recieved lots of abusive replies. I pointed out these were my observations from seeing large gatherings of Hibs and Hearts fans. I stopped looking at the thread after a few abusive replies. The replies continued and I suspect the thread was closed because of the replies. I did not rise to the baiit. I am from a very poor family myself and was not making fun of poverty. As Socrates, not the footballer, said when the argument is lost the loser resorts to insults.

In fact the original poster agreed with the points I was making but was puzzled by my last point on the demographics of our support. So your comment that it was a long and bizarre post is wrong and slanderous.

Your post was such a sweeping generalisation, it was offensive and disrespectful to many..I would have thought you would have let it go, yet it seems not . surely you can sense the reaction to it .

The derogatory term you refer to is linked to the impact of the cheap heroin epedemic of the early 80s which impacted many Leith and Edinburgh homes. It has been repurposed from a Glasgow to Edinburgh insult , into now (you suggest) a Hibs one. I’m sure you know that, yet, you seek to reposition it. Very poor imo.

[FilipinoHibs]

I read your post not long after you’d posted it and before it had received any replies. My immediate reaction was “WTF”. Your demographic comment was a generalisation of ridiculous proportions - no substance to it. And your spoon burners reference has nothing to do with what folk were wearing to games in the 60s. It’s another recent favourite of theirs that has its roots in the heroin epidemic of the 80s when the arrogance and sense of self-entitlement took hold under Mercer. Nothing to do with what you saw on the terraces back in the day. Bizarre is a fair description of your thesis.Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

[MrSmith]

Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

We must be of similar age? I’m 53. I didn’t observe any of those differences you are making between both supports.

I've followed Hibs since the 70s - maybe earlier I don’t know but my mum, dad and brother were all massive Hibs fans (sadly all gone now) and may have taken me in the very late 60s - but as said in my response to you early this morning (without insult I may add), I’m from south Edinburgh were there is many poor working class estates/schemes, the mix in support was 50/50 and we all looked the same.

my first memory of football was vs Celtic at ER and as I said, everyone looked big and bold in the 1970, in relation to a three year old.

[where'stheslope]

Sadly, I think segregation caused the pushing apart supporters, they could no longer go to games with friends of either team playing and enjoy the game!
This created the them and us syndrome that was not apparent in the 60's.
There has always been some troublemakers on both sides, but it used to be contained in the various singing areas and was easier to police.
When segregation happened, the club songs became that wee bit more edgy and vitriol became common place.
I will always remember the Casuals walking around the front of the Gorgie Road end just to annoy the police.
In todays terms, it was just inside grounds then, now its all over social media and forums and now everyone wants to rid the world of other clubs.
Hopefully when everything dies down, we can maybe go back to just watching football again!!!

[tonyrougier123]

My best mates are sevco and also a few jambos supporters,I get told the same thing in every single footy debate,"awe youz hibs ***** are the same".but I always say we arny though,try going to easter road we always argue amongst ourselfs in the stands, sometimes even wen things are going well.
But when hibs fans are in unison and in full flow,its the best support in scotland bar none.nowt worse than two sevco fans and a jambo talking football,I can say from experience.mind blowing delusions of grandeur.

[chrisski33]

Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

Keep digging and making your hole bigger with your nonsense

[BILLYHIBS]

Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.

I read your OP last night and I must confess I was expecting to see an apology to your fellow HIBS supporters on these threads this morning but obviously you have not sobered up yet?

Calling us undernourished and poor ? :confused:

I started following HIBS in the sixties and my memory of that era is that no one had a great deal of money but I would like to think through time we have all prospered and benefited through improvements in society, advances in technology, health, income and as a consequence standards of living and disposable income have improved dramatically.

I am not conscious of the average Hearts fan being any better or worse off than the average HIBS fan and I certainly do not remember standing beside any peasants in the HIBS end at Murrayfield versus Barcelona As another poster pointed out it was mostly neutral fans which I am sure would have been the same at Hearts v Barca

[Forza Fred]

I’ve been around a while, so Filipino Hibs’ comments, although bollox didn’t offend me.

However next time I visit Easter Road though, I’ll make sure that my Butler
has my dinner suit laid out��

[tamig]

Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.
I never actually replied to the original thread and I don’t think my post you’ve responded to was abusive in the slightest. You mentioned that you attended your first games in the 60s and that was when your views of the different demographics among each support started to form. Apologies if that’s not the case but that was my recollection of the original post.

[Since452]

Filipino Hibs is actually a pretty good poster. One that talks a bit of sense and who I agree with more often than not. Didn't see his original post but we've all posted nonsense from time to time to be fair.

[KDY Hibs]

this threads taken a turn for the worst!

[Keith_M]

Is anybody else currently thinking of The Four Yorkshiremen (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKHFZBUTA4k) sketch?


:greengrin

[blackpoolhibs]

Started going middle 60s with my dad and grandad, when i started going on my own, everyone looked the same, and kids my age ALL wore big **** off bell bottom jeans and tank tops.

Never knew Jenners made better ones than the asian shops on leith walk or junction st did.

[McD]

Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.



i don’t see anything abusive about the post you’re replying to

[Clarence]

I find that this is the narrative that people who come to Edinburgh to live latch on to because they are wooed by its simplicity. As someone who grew up in Edinburgh and attended an “establishment” school, I can say that the true establishment looked down on football regardless of what team you supported. However there were plenty of Hibs fans from very well to do families and plenty of Hearts fans who were there through charitable free places, especially those from out in the Jambo hotbeds of the former mining villages in Midlothian. I would never say I have an idea that Hibs fans are better off than hearts fans because of that though, because it’s completely anecdotal. I’d say that it’s a weird thing to make a point about.

A more likely explanation for hearts’ fans yearning for superiority is that they are projecting a deep felt, burning sense of inferiority from having not won a trophy for 30+ years prior to 98, and then having the delusions of grandeur of the Romanov years being overlaid upon that, only for that to be whipped away again with the final insult of us having the most memorable Scottish cup win in recent history, all but negating their jaded cup win in 2012.

[Bostonhibby]

I find that this is the narrative that people who come to Edinburgh to live latch on to because they are wooed by its simplicity. As someone who grew up in Edinburgh and attended an “establishment” school, I can say that the true establishment looked down on football regardless of what team you supported. However there were plenty of Hibs fans from very well to do families and plenty of Hearts fans who were there through charitable free places, especially those from out in the Jambo hotbeds of the former mining villages in Midlothian. I would never say I have an idea that Hibs fans are better off than hearts fans because of that though, because it’s completely anecdotal. I’d say that it’s a weird thing to make a point about.

A more likely explanation for hearts’ fans yearning for superiority is that they are projecting a deep felt, burning sense of inferiority from having not won a trophy for 30+ years prior to 98, and then having the delusions of grandeur of the Romanov years being overlaid upon that, only for that to be whipped away again with the final insult of us having the most memorable Scottish cup win in recent history, all but negating their jaded cup win in 2012.

A lot of commonsense here[emoji106]

I know loads of people of a Hearts and Hibs persuasion and from all walks of life, and without getting too deeply into it I just had to say I've never felt in any way inferior to anyone who follows Hearts, in life or just in footballing terms - look at them now[emoji16]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

[Clarence]

A lot of commonsense here[emoji106]

I know loads of people of a Hearts and Hibs persuasion and from all walks of life, and without getting too deeply into it I just had to say I've never felt in any way inferior to anyone who follows Hearts, in life or just in footballing terms - look at them now[emoji16]

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

Thanks Boston.

Once some folk have formed a view, especially when that view is hammered home by the media, they just embrace the information that confirms that view while ignoring, or rejecting, information that casts doubt on it.

[Hibs90]

Ok the demographics is based on visual observations over a long periods of time - 50 years going to Scottish football games. The spoon burners is a reference to a current slur not one from the 60s as you say I said but it is based on the view by Hearts fans now that we are from the poor part of town. These were the last points I made.The first points were in 1970 Hearts were not that far from the glory days of the terrible trio, winning leagues and cups and losing the league on the last da in 1965.Their support in the 1970s had more members of the professional classes, Hearts were truly the establishment team and looked down on Hibs fans as being lower class. I stated that had been partly readdressed through improved social mobility because of a period of free further education. So what you have done is lie about the spoon burner reference saying the 60s and not now as I stated in my post.The evidence I offered for the demographics was observing crowds at big games over 50 years. Including big Hampden and ER/Tynecastle games - i attended Tynecastle to see my friends teams play there. Plus the big games at Murrayfield versus Barca. I may not have carried out a survey but there was sufficient visual evidence to make an informed opinion. I have received no warnings from the admins about my post. The thread was more likely taken down by off the wall abusive responses like yours.


I've seen sufficient visual evidence in my time to suggest the opposite. Your sweeping generalisation of Hibs fans was a poor and crass observation that lacked class.

[hongkonghibee]

I read your OP last night and I must confess I was expecting to see an apology to your fellow HIBS supporters on these threads this morning but obviously you have not sobered up yet?

Calling us undernourished and poor ? :confused:

I started following HIBS in the sixties and my memory of that era is that no one had a great deal of money but I would like to think through time we have all prospered and benefited through improvements in society, advances in technology, health, income and as a consequence standards of living and disposable income have improved dramatically.

I am not conscious of the average Hearts fan being any better or worse off than the average HIBS fan and I certainly do not remember standing beside any peasants in the HIBS end at Murrayfield versus Barcelona As another poster pointed out it was mostly neutral fans which I am sure would have been the same at Hearts v Barca

The difference between rich and poor is bigger than ever. There is more homelessness now. Disposable income has not improved for many many people.
I broadly agree with filipinohibs with his analysis.

[BILLYHIBS]

The difference between rich and poor is bigger than ever. There is more homelessness now. Disposable income has not improved for many many people.
I broadly agree with filipinohibs with his analysis.
Did you see his OP on the thread that was deleted?

[147lothian]

I find that this is the narrative that people who come to Edinburgh to live latch on to because they are wooed by its simplicity. As someone who grew up in Edinburgh and attended an “establishment” school, I can say that the true establishment looked down on football regardless of what team you supported. However there were plenty of Hibs fans from very well to do families and plenty of Hearts fans who were there through charitable free places, especially those from out in the Jambo hotbeds of the former mining villages in Midlothian. I would never say I have an idea that Hibs fans are better off than hearts fans because of that though, because it’s completely anecdotal. I’d say that it’s a weird thing to make a point about.

A more likely explanation for hearts’ fans yearning for superiority is that they are projecting a deep felt, burning sense of inferiority from having not won a trophy for 30+ years prior to 98, and then having the delusions of grandeur of the Romanov years being overlaid upon that, only for that to be whipped away again with the final insult of us having the most memorable Scottish cup win in recent history, all but negating their jaded cup win in 2012.

A good post, this thread was going on a wayward trajectory due to some attaching too much meaning to things IMO, its worth remembering that 'in your Glasgow slums' was sung to both Rangers and Celtic fans in the 70's because there really was slums in these days, ironically there were also slums in Edinburgh at that time but thats football fans for you.

[Tobias Funke]

I read your OP last night and I must confess I was expecting to see an apology to your fellow HIBS supporters on these threads this morning but obviously you have not sobered up yet?

Calling us undernourished and poor ? :confused:

I started following HIBS in the sixties and my memory of that era is that no one had a great deal of money but I would like to think through time we have all prospered and benefited through improvements in society, advances in technology, health, income and as a consequence standards of living and disposable income have improved dramatically.

I am not conscious of the average Hearts fan being any better or worse off than the average HIBS fan and I certainly do not remember standing beside any peasants in the HIBS end at Murrayfield versus Barcelona As another poster pointed out it was mostly neutral fans which I am sure would have been the same at Hearts v Barca

One of the most profoundly bizarre posts I’ve read on here, came from absolutely nowhere and totally irrelevant to the topic in my opinion. Quite right to call them out 👍🏼

[Hibs4185]

I always laugh at hearts and the big team establishment crap.

Drive through Gorgie and Dalry, it’s an absolute dump nowadays. My mum lived in Gorgie for years and she can’t believe how bad it is.

Compare to leith with vibrant pubs, Michelin star restaurants, ocean terminal etc.

I know which part of the city is the place to be and it ain’t that *hithole.

[EdinMike]

I saw the original thread this morning and not to restart that whole debacle. Growing up in the west of Edinburgh In the 90s most of my Hearts friends were (to bring back a 90s term) council house scaffs.

Did I care then ?! Nope. Do I care now ?! Nope. People are people.

[theonlywayisup]

I always recall that in the early 90s, the Hertz fans were always smug about "22 in a row", wee Robbo etc. However, you could always throw back comments that they hadn't won anything since 1962.

That all changed in 1996.

On the day prior to the cup final, I recall the DR printed a list of all the teams that had won trophies since Hertz had won their last one.

Celtic
Rangers
Aberdeen
Dundee United
Hibernian
Raith Rovers
Partick thistle
Dunfermline
Dundee
St Mirren
Kilmarnock

However, once they beat Rangers suddenly their supremacy seemed to take on new levels.

[nonshinyfinish]

I always recall that in the early 90s, the Hertz fans were always smug about "22 in a row", wee Robbo etc. However, you could always throw back comments that they hadn't won anything since 1962.

That all changed in 1996.

You mean when Oldco "killed them as a club"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Scottish_Cup_Final

[Jones28]

I always laugh at hearts and the big team establishment crap.

Drive through Gorgie and Dalry, it’s an absolute dump nowadays. My mum lived in Gorgie for years and she can’t believe how bad it is.

Compare to leith with vibrant pubs, Michelin star restaurants, ocean terminal etc.

I know which part of the city is the place to be and it ain’t that *hithole.

It’s a hovel. It’s like Leith 40 years ago.

[theonlywayisup]

You mean when Oldco "killed them as a club"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Scottish_Cup_Final

Ooops! Did I get the year wrong? Was it 1998?

[Since452]

You mean when Oldco "killed them as a club"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1996_Scottish_Cup_Final

37k crowd. What was that all about? Hampden renovation?

[Hibees1973]

I find that this is the narrative that people who come to Edinburgh to live latch on to because they are wooed by its simplicity. As someone who grew up in Edinburgh and attended an “establishment” school, I can say that the true establishment looked down on football regardless of what team you supported. However there were plenty of Hibs fans from very well to do families and plenty of Hearts fans who were there through charitable free places, especially those from out in the Jambo hotbeds of the former mining villages in Midlothian. I would never say I have an idea that Hibs fans are better off than hearts fans because of that though, because it’s completely anecdotal. I’d say that it’s a weird thing to make a point about.

A more likely explanation for hearts’ fans yearning for superiority is that they are projecting a deep felt, burning sense of inferiority from having not won a trophy for 30+ years prior to 98, and then having the delusions of grandeur of the Romanov years being overlaid upon that, only for that to be whipped away again with the final insult of us having the most memorable Scottish cup win in recent history, all but negating their jaded cup win in 2012.

Your last paragraph hits the nail on the head for their misguided arrogance. Prior to 1998 they won nothing for almost 30 years. Within this time they spent around a decade yo-young between divisions.

Then the pieman took over from Mercer in the mid 90s and started to rack up massive debts, which increased further when the Lithuanian crook took over. The SFA/SPFLs governance then was even worse than now allowing Hearts to launder money from abroad and miss salary payments to players. As I said, they won nothing for around 30 years prior to 1998, then 3 Scottish Cups appear during the time massive debts increased.

Surely even the most dyed in the wool Yam would accept these cups would never have been won with expensive players paid by laundered money.

These recent cup wins are the source of this new found arrogance. Also, they have sailed so close to being defunct they probably believe they could survive anything. For example, using this pandemic to bin underperforming players and avoid relegation.

[Since452]

I always recall that in the early 90s, the Hertz fans were always smug about "22 in a row", wee Robbo etc. However, you could always throw back comments that they hadn't won anything since 1962.

That all changed in 1996.

On the day prior to the cup final, I recall the DR printed a list of all the teams that had won trophies since Hertz had won their last one.

Celtic
Rangers
Aberdeen
Dundee United
Hibernian
Raith Rovers
Partick thistle
Dunfermline
Dundee
St Mirren
Kilmarnock

However, once they beat Rangers suddenly their supremacy seemed to take on new levels.

Still haven't won the league cup since 1962 though. How embarrassing.

[Eyrie]

Still haven't won the league cup since 1962 though. How embarrassing.

That's unfair - they're a lower league club :devil:

[Iggy Pope]

It’s a hovel. It’s like Leith 40 years ago.

Leith wasn’t a hovel at anytime never mind 1980.

[Islington Hibs]

I find that this is the narrative that people who come to Edinburgh to live latch on to because they are wooed by its simplicity. As someone who grew up in Edinburgh and attended an “establishment” school, I can say that the true establishment looked down on football regardless of what team you supported. However there were plenty of Hibs fans from very well to do families and plenty of Hearts fans who were there through charitable free places, especially those from out in the Jambo hotbeds of the former mining villages in Midlothian. I would never say I have an idea that Hibs fans are better off than hearts fans because of that though, because it’s completely anecdotal. I’d say that it’s a weird thing to make a point about.

A more likely explanation for hearts’ fans yearning for superiority is that they are projecting a deep felt, burning sense of inferiority from having not won a trophy for 30+ years prior to 98, and then having the delusions of grandeur of the Romanov years being overlaid upon that, only for that to be whipped away again with the final insult of us having the most memorable Scottish cup win in recent history, all but negating their jaded cup win in 2012.


I went to a similar school by the sounds of it and your comments are similar to my observations. Football was looked down on but in the 70’s Hibs fans outnumbered Hearts fans by probably 3-1 of those interested in football, which was a minority.

I think there may be a perception that Hearts are the establishment team y no football types but I don’t think it is true. Seems to me both clubs have the full spectrum of society. Clearly there are some geographic biases and family ties but I would say Hibs have probably slightly grown their ‘share’ of the market over the last decade or so..

There is no doubt Hears consider themselves top dogs which to be honest is pretty delusional.. The gap is between Celtic and Rangers not between Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen.

[Iggy Pope]

If anyone has the time or the inclination, there is an old book out there, ‘The Hearts’ written by Albert Mackie.
It was a book produced during their late 50s / very early 60s pomp and is very informative and well illustrated. I used to own a copy but I gave it to a Hearts **** mate of mine during my teens. He’s still my mate.

However, in it Mackie acknowledges that while Hibs and Hearts are alliterative and rivalrous, Hibs were very much the men of pints of porter and Hearts were the sort of pink gins.
Navvies and the polis you might think. White collars and nae collar.

It was the way people thought before these enlightened times and factually, it was probably accurate for most of last century and some of the one before. I for one remain proud about that. Not sure if the auld Hearts worthies of the working class schemes and environs of Broomhouse, Stenhouse, Saughton Mains, Oxgangs and the like thought they were much better than anyone though.

These modern times? I am incredulous that anyone at all would entertain the notion that Hearts are “better dressed”.

[James Stephen]

If anyone has the time or the inclination, there is an old book out there, ‘The Hearts’ written by Albert Mackie.
It was a book produced during their late 50s / very early 60s pomp and is very informative and well illustrated. I used to own a copy but I gave it to a Hearts **** mate of mine during my teens. He’s still my mate.

However, in it Mackie acknowledges that while Hibs and Hearts are alliterative and rivalrous, Hibs were very much the men of pints of porter and Hearts were the sort of pink gins.
Navvies and the polis you might think. White collars and nae collar.

It was the way people thought before these enlightened times and factually, it was probably accurate for most of last century and some of the one before. I for one remain proud about that. Not sure if the auld Hearts worthies of the working class schemes and environs of Broomhouse, Stenhouse, Saughton Mains, Oxgangs and the like thought they were much better than anyone though.

These modern times? I am incredulous that anyone at all would entertain the notion that Hearts are “better dressed”.

Bizarrely, i have just finished reading my faither in law's copy of this.

Its a fascinating read, and it really does give a brilliant insight into both the time it was written (late 50s) and the times prior.

There is no doubt Hearts did, and do, see themselves as the edinburgh club. There is even a line in the book about (and i paraphrase) that few, even hibs fans, would argue that hearts are Edinburgh's darlings.

Its almost certainly rooted in religion, ethnicity, and social class, and when you throw in the Leith / Edinburgh angle, its easy to see how Hibs were the outsiders.

[HoboHarry]

I’ve been around a while, so Filipino Hibs’ comments, although bollox didn’t offend me.

However next time I visit Easter Road though, I’ll make sure that my Butler
has my dinner suit laid out��
Mind and get it back to the pawn shop when you're done 😜

[Brizo]

If anyone has the time or the inclination, there is an old book out there, ‘The Hearts’ written by Albert Mackie.
It was a book produced during their late 50s / very early 60s pomp and is very informative and well illustrated. I used to own a copy but I gave it to a Hearts **** mate of mine during my teens. He’s still my mate.

However, in it Mackie acknowledges that while Hibs and Hearts are alliterative and rivalrous, Hibs were very much the men of pints of porter and Hearts were the sort of pink gins.
Navvies and the polis you might think. White collars and nae collar.

It was the way people thought before these enlightened times and factually, it was probably accurate for most of last century and some of the one before. I for one remain proud about that. Not sure if the auld Hearts worthies of the working class schemes and environs of Broomhouse, Stenhouse, Saughton Mains, Oxgangs and the like thought they were much better than anyone though.

These modern times? I am incredulous that anyone at all would entertain the notion that Hearts are “better dressed”.

Albert Mackie is a blast from the past. He had a diary style column in the Scotsman back in the 80s and 90s and a lot of it revolved around life in Morningside and Bruntsfield and he sometimes mentioned Hearts. He was the type of bunnet, shirt and tie, car coat, wee Edinburgh man you used to see a lot but don't nowadays. Amusing guy who played up his own stereotype.

In my lifetime the Hearts fans have been no different in social class from us but maybe there is some residual "establishment" mentality from earlier times which feeds into their arrogance and sense of entitlement. That sense of extreme self importance can't come from the Tynie match day experience which seems to involve agricultural football played in front of an audience dressed by George at Asda ?

[greenpaper55]

When i was younger and working in the trades every foreman/ manager was a Hearts fan and many of them were members of the funny handshake fraternity if you know what i mean ? I think folk forget how powerful that organisation was and i think it still lingers today.

[WhileTheChief..]

Did the Masons every have any real power or influence?

I always thought they just gave a bloke an excuse to get out the house for a pint once a week for peace from the family!

[oneone73]

Albert Mackie is a blast from the past. He had a diary style column in the Scotsman back in the 80s and 90s and a lot of it revolved around life in Morningside and Bruntsfield and he sometimes mentioned Hearts. He was the type of bunnet, shirt and tie, car coat, wee Edinburgh man you used to see a lot but don't nowadays. Amusing guy who played up his own stereotype.

In my lifetime the Hearts fans have been no different in social class from us but maybe there is some residual "establishment" mentality from earlier times which feeds into their arrogance and sense of entitlement. That sense of extreme self importance can't come from the Tynie match day experience which seems to involve agricultural football played in front of an audience dressed by George at Asda ?

Wasn't that Albert Morris?

[The Green Sea]

If Hibs had Hearts derby record over the last 40 years would we think were a bigger and better club than them. Probably. The reality in my 40 years supporting Hibs, we’ve both won 3 cups which when you look at that record we’re equally as s***e as each other. 120 major domestic trophies and we’ve won 6 in total in Edinburgh. Nothing to shout about really.

[The Count]

Did the Masons every have any real power or influence?

I always thought they just gave a bloke an excuse to get out the house for a pint once a week for peace from the family!
Try getting promotion in certain well known Edinburgh companies pre 2000.

[MrSmith]

Did the Masons every have any real power or influence?

I always thought they just gave a bloke an excuse to get out the house for a pint once a week for peace from the family!

they were a humanist society ruined by self serving types who see and use it in order to gain a professional & social advantage. In the west, the orange munters have infiltrated it. I'm not affiliated but my uncle always said, use it but don’t abuse it.

[Alfred E Newman]

Leith wasn’t a hovel at anytime never mind 1980.

Aye, there is certainly some nonsense getting spouted on this thread.

[Keith_M]

Aye, there is certainly some nonsense getting spouted on this thread.


:agree:

[Keith_M]

I lived the first twenty+ years of my life (up to the early 90s) in a Lothians village that used to be one of many whose employment historically centred mostly around Mining, with lots of people that did seasonal work on farms. There were some small factories in the slightly larger towns, like Musselburgh and Dalkeith.

The people in those towns and villages in East and Mid-Lothian were almost all 'working class', with only the occasional area where some of the residents might be referred to as 'the middle classes'.

Support for football teams was fairly evenly split between Hibs, Hearts, Rangers and Celtc. All were equally from the same class of people and there was no visible divide in wealth or so-called class between groups based on which team they supported.

I had some friends and relatives in Edinburgh, all supporting Hibs or Hearts. I didn't see any difference in wealth or class divide between these people.


In essence, the claims some people are making on this thread sound like utter bolloks to me.

[KingPat4]

Leith wasn’t a hovel at anytime never mind 1980.

Agreed. I am not having that either.

[KingPat4]

I'm not from Edinburgh or have any family connection. But I was drawn here by supporting Hibernian and have lived here for forty two years. Married a girl from the Southside and have three kids, who all support the club. Got two season tickets and about to sign up to HSL. I feel as if I was born in Leith and adore the place, the feel if it and it's rich history.

All this spoon burner, junkie, prozzie stuff of the past and present, never bothered me then or now, especially from Weegies who no right to comment.

My dislike of Hearts was pretty soft until Mercer, now it's off the scale. Embarrassment to football Edinburgh and Scotland. Poppy Thieves is now my answer to virtually any Jambo with a sense of entitlement, most of them, as there is little point of discussing things sensibly.

Let's remember, outside of Edinburgh, never mind the rest of Scotland or the UK, no one really cares about Hibs or Hearts and that's fine by me.

[SouthMoroccoStu]

I always laugh at hearts and the big team establishment crap.

Drive through Gorgie and Dalry, it’s an absolute dump nowadays. My mum lived in Gorgie for years and she can’t believe how bad it is.

Compare to leith with vibrant pubs, Michelin star restaurants, ocean terminal etc.

I know which part of the city is the place to be and it ain’t that *hithole.

100% accurate

The whole hibs are spoon-burner hobos is an antiquated stereotype, best left back 30 years ago

But it still seems to be rolled out by the Huns and diet Huns at the drop of a hat

I always enjoy reminding them that Glasgow is the drug death capital of Europe

No Offence to any west/Glasgow based Hibees

[davym7062]

I always laugh at hearts and the big team establishment crap.

Drive through Gorgie and Dalry, it’s an absolute dump nowadays. My mum lived in Gorgie for years and she can’t believe how bad it is.

Compare to leith with vibrant pubs, Michelin star restaurants, ocean terminal etc.

I know which part of the city is the place to be and it ain’t that *hithole.

and a tram!!! well in 4/5 years but still :greengrin

[Gloucester Hibs]

I always laugh at hearts and the big team establishment crap.

Drive through Gorgie and Dalry, it’s an absolute dump nowadays. My mum lived in Gorgie for years and she can’t believe how bad it is.

Compare to leith with vibrant pubs, Michelin star restaurants, ocean terminal etc.

I know which part of the city is the place to be and it ain’t that *hithole.

Harsh. Gorgie has its share of trendy gastropubs, Stratties for instance 👀

[Brizo]

Wasn't that Albert Morris?

Your right, got my Jambo Alberts mixed up

[bawheid]

This is an interesting thread.

I went to a few Jambos away games with a mate when I was at uni. We’re talking 20 odd years ago now.

I recall one game at Pittodrie in particular. I remember thinking that the only difference between their support and ours was the maroon scarves and the sectarian shout outs.

[BILLYHIBS]

Your right, got my Jambo Alberts mixed up

But which one was the first ‘ Duncan ‘? :greengrin

[Hiber-nation]

Never saw any arrogance until 1983 after they came back up and beat us at swiney. It hasn't really gone away since then. In the 70s we were the arrogant ones.

I never really got the establishment club thing either although I can see why some folk do. For me the arrogance was more about Mercer and the takeover bid and it really embedded itself in some decent jambo mates of mine. The archetypal jambo when I was younger was probably a pissed up apprentice mechanic from Sighthill rather than a gin-swilling lawyer from Morningside :greengrin

[Carheenlea]

Is there really such a thing as establishment clubs?

[SouthMoroccoStu]

Is there really such a thing as establishment clubs?

Ones that always seem to get the “luck” and status quo “protection” of the hierarchy

Blazer wearing and funny handshakes - sometimes a pigs head. Religion is certainly a factor

So definitely Rangers (sevco and the the original) hearts (up til recently)

[EI255]

Remember the casual hey days of the 80's, Hibs were always considered the better dressed lads, with Hearts often laughed at. This was probably due in part to Hearts not able to shop in the same shops the Hibs lads used, for obvious reasons!

Sent from my LG-H870 using Tapatalk

[Barman Stanton]

Isn’t it just that all football fans look down on their rival clubs. I started going in the 80s, singing ‘in your Gorgie slums’, ‘no cups in Gorgie’ etc. When you grow up most realise it’s a load of rubbish and clubs our size have fans from all walks of life.

[hibbyfraelibby]

This establishment chat from the Gorgie gGorgons is really quite delusional.

As everyone knows no football club in Edinburgh is the establishment club. The establishment's clubs are rugby clubs ranging from Watsonians, Heriots, StewMels to Edinburgh Accies. Boroughmuir don't get a look in as they are too "trade".

Hearts only claim to be establishment is linked purely on their forebearers role as the domestic servants of the true establishment whereas Hibs, St Bernards, Edinburgh City and Leith Athletic support came from people who had real jobs.

HMFC the establishment's underlings club...

[Kato]

HMFC the establishment's underlings club...

You mean the Edinburgh Council?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Turkish Green]

This establishment chat from the Gorgie gGorgons is really quite delusional.

As everyone knows no football club in Edinburgh is the establishment club. The establishment's clubs are rugby clubs ranging from Watsonians, Heriots, StewMels to Edinburgh Accies. Boroughmuir don't get a look in as they are too "trade".

Hearts only claim to be establishment is linked purely on their forebearers role as the domestic servants of the true establishment whereas Hibs, St Bernards, Edinburgh City and Leith Athletic support came from people who had real jobs.

HMFC the establishment's underlings club...

"establishment" as in Masonic Lodge?

Muir were considered trade as the were an open club and a state school to boot.

[gbhibby]

I do not give a damm what Hearts fans think or call us. If it makes them happy so be it. Let's rise above all this and show Hibs Class. They are a team who share the same city as us and I like nothing better than beating them. As my late father said you are only as good as your next game and the past is in the past.

[Paisley Hibby]

I do not give a damm what Hearts fans think or call us. If it makes them happy so be it. Let's rise above all this and show Hibs Class. They are a team who share the same city as us and I like nothing better than beating them. As my late father said you are only as good as your next game and the past is in the past.

Well said 👍

[Not In The Know]

Another example: Thinking our CEO would leave to work for them. The folk even entertaining this pish are in turn peddling the jumbo superiority nonsense.

[jacomo]

Another example: Thinking our CEO would leave to work for them. The folk even entertaining this pish are in turn peddling the jumbo superiority nonsense.


Aye let’s just leak our interest to a tabloid and watch LD come running. She will be mighty impressed with the way Hearts go about things.

That club has zero class but everyone has a price I suppose. The price for working for them would be very high though.

[Keith_M]

Is there really such a thing as establishment clubs?


Real Madrid, Paris St Germain, Bayern Munich..... and Hearts

[Killiehibbie]

Your post was such a sweeping generalisation, it was offensive and disrespectful to many..I would have thought you would have let it go, yet it seems not . surely you can sense the reaction to it .

The derogatory term you refer to is linked to the impact of the cheap heroin epedemic of the early 80s which impacted many Leith and Edinburgh homes. It has been repurposed from a Glasgow to Edinburgh insult , into now (you suggest) a Hibs one. I’m sure you know that, yet, you seek to reposition it. Very poor imo.

I thought it was a result of Trainspotting and in their minds all junkies supported Hibs or all Hibbies are junkies. The west of Edinburgh has never had a drug problem!

[Since452]

I thought it was a result of Trainspotting and in their minds all junkies supported Hibs or all Hibbies are junkies. The west of Edinburgh has never had a drug problem!

That's 100% what it is.

[bigwheel]

I thought it was a result of Trainspotting and in their minds all junkies supported Hibs or all Hibbies are junkies. The west of Edinburgh has never had a drug problem!

Trainspotting film perhaps popularised it, but that wasn't until 1996...that sort of "banter" was in place before then, mid 80s onwards..since Edinburgh was deemed the "drugs/aids" capital of the world in some press articles....

[oldbutdim]

Trainspotting film perhaps popularised it, but that wasn't until 1996...that sort of "banter" was in place before then, mid 80s onwards..since Edinburgh was deemed the "drugs/aids" capital of the world in some press articles....

Spot on.

:aok:

[Keith_M]

Trainspotting film perhaps popularised it, but that wasn't until 1996...that sort of "banter" was in place before then, mid 80s onwards..since Edinburgh was deemed the "drugs/aids" capital of the world in some press articles....


I can remember going to games in the 80s where opposition fans chanted "H-I-V, Positive" at us.

Strangely enough, even a home game against Alloa in 1990(?)

I think Motherwell fans even painted 'Hibs have AIDS' on the walls outside Fir Park before one visit.

[147lothian]

SPFL first 4 fixtures

Dundee United:

Aberdeen (A) Celtic (H) Hibernian (A) Rangers (H)

Celtic:

Hibernian (A) Dundee United (A) Hamilton (H) Ross County (H)

Hibernian:

Celtic (H) Rangers (A) Dundee United (H) Hamilton (A)

Hearts:

Sheriff Court (H) Scottish Appeal Court (A) Court of Session (A) UK Scottish Court (A)

[Killiehibbie]

Trainspotting film perhaps popularised it, but that wasn't until 1996...that sort of "banter" was in place before then, mid 80s onwards..since Edinburgh was deemed the "drugs/aids" capital of the world in some press articles....

I was probably too stoned to notice🙃

[gbhibby]

I was probably too stoned to notice🙃

Watched a documentary few nights ago and they were showing a needle exchange scheme when EDINBURGH was known as the AIDS capital of Europe. They showed a guy turning up at Leith Hospital to get his clean needle. There was needle exchanges in other parts of the city. If they base the spoon burners comments on this and Trainspotting I can only say what TYNIE Minds they have.

[Keith_M]

SPFL first 4 fixtures

Dundee United:

Aberdeen (A) Celtic (H) Hibernian (A) Rangers (H)

Celtic:

Hibernian (A) Dundee United (A) Hamilton (H) Ross County (H)

Hibernian:

Celtic (H) Rangers (A) Dundee United (H) Hamilton (A)

Hearts:

Sheriff Court (H) Scottish Appeal Court (A) Court of Session (A) UK Scottish Court (A)



:greengrin

[Iggy Pope]

I thought it was a result of Trainspotting and in their minds all junkies supported Hibs or all Hibbies are junkies. The west of Edinburgh has never had a drug problem!

West? Apart from the west Edinburgh parts of Broomhouse, Sighthill, Clovenstone and Wester Hailes that has Hibbies in it right? Are you kidding?

[jacomo]

Trainspotting film perhaps popularised it, but that wasn't until 1996...that sort of "banter" was in place before then, mid 80s onwards..since Edinburgh was deemed the "drugs/aids" capital of the world in some press articles....


:agree:

Trainspotting is (surreally) based on a real scene at the time.

[linlithgowhibbie]

West? Apart from the west Edinburgh parts of Broomhouse, Sighthill, Clovenstone and Wester Hailes that has Hibbies in it right? Are you kidding?

Think you've had a "Whoosh" moment Iggy:wink:

[147lothian]

Another example: Thinking our CEO would leave to work for them. The folk even entertaining this pish are in turn peddling the jumbo superiority nonsense.

Hear hear! A good point well said!

[HFC93]

Another example: Thinking our CEO would leave to work for them. The folk even entertaining this pish are in turn peddling the jumbo superiority nonsense.

Aye, definitely an element of our support who have some sort of complex when it comes to them. You see it on here all the time. Does my nut in.

[Since452]

Another example: Thinking our CEO would leave to work for them. The folk even entertaining this pish are in turn peddling the jumbo superiority nonsense.

Spot on. To work for them in the Championship.