Celtic, John Glass and the downfall of hibs

[Pagan Hibernia]

A lot of our thoughts this week have been on that summer 30 years ago when our club was staring down the barrel of extinction... but almost exactly a century before that was a similarly perilous crisis...


It’s a time in our history that fascinates me, I’ve still not managed to get my hands on Lugtons seminal trilogy on the subject, but the Hibernian Historical Trust has an excellent history section on their website.


What most people know is that Hibs inspired the Irish community in Glasgow to set up their own club. That’s undisputed, as is the many forms of help that Hibs offered at the time, playing friendlies in Glasgow to raise funds, offering cash donations etc..,


From a Hibernian point of view the villain of the piece is John Glass, who betrayed us and celtics original ideals to make money.


This is for the HHT website..


“ The real men behind this move however proved to be the businessmen, a builder from Donegal named John Glass and Pat Welsh, These men had seen the earning potential of a professional football club, and their subsequent methods of achieving their aims was to prove catastrophic for Hibernian
Hibernians were delighted on hearing the news of the formation of Celtic Football Club, and typical of Hibs they made an immediate donation towards the expenses of forming the new club, letting it be known at the same time that anything they could do to help would be done. Hibernians continued blissfully unaware that the founding of Celtic might cause them even the slightest problem, after all did every Irish Catholic not see football as they did, as a means of doing some good for their communities?.... In the following weeks, Celtic played several games and each time used players borrowed from Hibernians. There were rumours doing the rounds of course about the intentions of the new Glasgow club, but these were dismissed by the Hibernians committee who simply would not believe that their close friends would mean them any harm.


It could be argued that it was a great pity for the Hibernians men to be so trusting. Celtic businessman John Glass and his partners were already making their own plans, including financial inducements being offered to the best players in the Hibernians side that might join Glasgow Celtic for the following season.


By August 1888, the Hibernians committee men had learned that the rumours were in fact true, and the cream of the best football side in Scotland would not be turning out for Hibernians, but rather had defected to Celtic with the riches being promised. Just as shocked as the Hibernians men were most of the Celtic committee who had not been aware of what John Glass and his supporters were doing. Even if Hibernians had wished to take Celtic on like for like, they could not do so, the very being of Hibernians was that every penny earned went to charitable causes. Celtic had undertaking no such principles. John Glass had recognised the massive financial rewards that would ensue from professional football. The game had gone professional in England sometime before and Scotland was about to follow. Using the loyalties of the Irish immigrant population left a sour taste in many a mouth. Celtic were seeking to have the best of both worlds, they would sign any players they wished while still retaining an appeal to the Irish community. Business had, not for the first time, trampled over idealism, money had spoken and it was not the first time in the history of Hibernian Football Club that they would suffer for their own ideals. The major problem would be to find replacement players from amongst the residents of Little Ireland, as the source of Irish Catholic players in the West would soon now dry up with Celtic on the doorstep. To the eternal credit of Canon Hannan and his committee they kept their dispute with Celtic private. Hibernians even continued to agree to a promise they had made to the effect that they would open the new season with a match against Celtic. Feelings were running high in Little Ireland that Hibernian should refuse to play this fixture, but the Hibernians men would not contemplate withdrawing for fear that it would cause friction in the Irish community in Scotland.


With only three players remaining from the previous season's fixtures, Hibernians managed to put together a team for the visit to Celtic Park and much to the embarrassment of John Glass, the home support wildly cheered the Hibs players both when they took to the field and then when they opened the scoring. Celtic equalised through former Hibernians darling, Willie Groves. Unfortunately, the Hibernians Captain James McGhee had to leave the field that day with a nasty injury. Despite this, the ten men took the lead, but Celtic eventually ran out 3-2 winners, with ex-Hibernians men Coleman and Groves the scorers.



Events off the park related to politics in the 'Old Country' would further weaken Hibernians when a number of their committee members were forced to resign. In order to replace them, a meeting was held with the honorary members of the Club who pledged financial support and gave up three of their number to take a seat on the new committee. At this meeting, some criticism was levelled at the old committee for so easily allowing Celtic to spirit players away, but this was countered by a statement suggesting that the good men of the Celtic committee had not planned such moves; they too being taken in by John Glass and his associates.


Further bad news soon reached Little Ireland when it was revealed that Celtic, who had sailed into both the Glasgow and the Scottish Football Associations, the path having been smoothed years before by Hibernian, now had a reserve team admitted. This more or less cemented the fear that good players from the West, once a great source for Hibernians, would no longer be as readily available.


On the park, the 1888/89 season started badly for Hibernians, with defeats in the League and an early Scottish Cup exit. With their decline so swift, it was hard to believe that the side were holders of the Cup. New players of quality were nigh on impossible to find and soon a return match with Celtic would take place, this time at Hibernian Park. Once again, there were murmurings that perhaps Hibernians should refuse to fulfil the fixture. Those thoughts prompted the Hibernians committee to insist the game would go ahead as the hand of friendship would always be extended to our brothers from Glasgow. The Hibernians committee were truly men of honour.


When the game was played, it was in a very hostile atmosphere that ex-Hibernians players John Coleman and Mick Dunbar (2) scored the goals which saw a weak Hibernians side beaten. The Irishmen in the home support made their feelings very plain and given the circumstances, who could blame them, as they watched many of their former heroes take Hibernian apart.”


Other events after this conspired to see Hibs effectively ruined and led to us taking a year out to regroup.


Unsurprisingly Celtic fans see things differently. The below is taken from Celtic Wiki about John Glass..


“He was the man, more than any other, who dragged Celtic and Scottish football into the professional world. and he was also the man who needed to do little persuading of various Hibs players in order to assist them to come to Celtic due to the situation that Hibs were leaving themselves in. For this, many Hibs fans have a wrong impression that he was a main instigator of the downfall of the original Hibs club in Edinburgh, but much of that is mistaken when you look at the facts.


John Glass gave the players who came over a stable job in a developing and progressing club in a fast changing market, something that the original Hibs were unwilling to deal with. John Glass observed the workings of professionalism in England in 1885 and correctly assumed that Scotland would follow. Hibs were sticking their heads in the sand, trying to preserve (sh)amateurism and keeping their Catholics only policy. Celtic were realistic and instead of both clubs floundering under dogma, Celtic modernised and adapted. Hibs didn't.


Probably, the most significant move that John Glass made, was his persuasion of James Kelly to come to Celtic. A forward who had been capped for Scotland, his capture was a star signing that the club could not miss out on. There was a lot of work done to entice him to choose Celtic above Hibernian (amongst others), and John Glass was the man who more than made the difference. Under him, John Glass and his committee made it a priority that the most important aspect was the team on the pitch, and it was said that if Celtic had not obtained James Kelly then it could have ended up a case of "No Kelly, No Keltic!". That's how important Jack Glass' involvement was to Celtic's survival.


Celtic was not the first "Scottish-Irish" football club, with others over the period having been found and foundered, including one or two others who were also called Celtic. The patronage in name and financially by men like John Glass enabled Celtic to hold its own against the establishment clubs of whom had treated the other "Scottish-Irish" clubs poorly and with much disdain. So John Glass' involvement beyond the founding and romanticism under Brother Walfrid were a vital component for the club's existence.”






So what do we think about this? Were we cheated out of our rightful place at the top of Scottish football? Or were we naive idealists sticking our head in the sand with professionalism approaching? Is it so long ago that it’s totally irrelevant?


we know we’re the originals and they’re the lesser greens but there’s so much I didn’t know about their history..

[ChilliEater]

I'm thinking the Celtic version of events actually completely backs up the Hibs version - no denial of his actions, just an attempted positive spin on wanting to make money (not that making money is necessarily a bad thing, but in this context, it clearly was)

[Mcpakeisgod]

Thanks for that. Was quite an interesting read !

[James Stephen]

Its a fascinating subject.

I think Hibs were - especially when viewed with hindsight - naive and idealistic and Glass had a better grasp of the way the wind was blowing in fitba generally.

But he was underhand and broke the sense of brotherhood that Hibs had fostered with all of the Irish clubs they supported and helped and to fund.

I believe that a number of the original Celtic committee were so disgusted with the actions of some of their colleagues towards Hibs, that they split and formed Glasgow Hibernian, but that club didnt last long.

All in all its sad they way history worked out, and between Celtic in the west, and Hearts here in Edinburgh, its a small wonder that Hibernian surivived at all, never mind managed to maintain its place as one of the bigger clubs in Scotland.

Its a great example of why, in football, ruthlessness and at times, cheating, is rewarded and does work. The idealistic are normally crushed underneath those willing to do what it takes.

Im not saying its right.

[Fergos]

A few years ago I worked alongside the wife of a relative of John Glass.

I mentioned Lugtons book to them and she subsequently bought it for her husband.

I still wonder what they made of it although to be fair , from what she told me, her husband was aware of his doings upon the forming of Celtic.

GGTTH

[BILLYHIBS]

Thanks for posting an interesting read

There is no doubt that Celtic led to us temporarily going out of business

Hibernian Football Club as formed by Canon Hannon, Michael Whelahan and other Irish Catholic immigrants were formed as a charitable institution to help the local Irish community based in St Mary’s Hall under the auspices of the Catholic Young Mens Society

Their main aim being to give young Catholic men some direction and purpose in life

Apart from the growing popularity of football they also offered other past times such as music, drama and organised trips

HIBS or Hibernians were a big draw as being the only representatives of the ould country and at that time rightly or wrongly only played Irish Catholic’s and were very popular in the West with the large immigrant Irish community.

Hibernian were always an amateur football team with all profits being directed back into the community

Indeed when we won the Scottish Cup defeating Dumbarton 2-1 in the final in 1887 beaten semi-finalists Vale Of Leven had put in a protest before the final stating that Darling Willie Groves had received financial inducements over and above what should be expected by an amateur player

The Hearing was heard after the final and it was immediately kicked out and HIBS held onto their trophy to great celebrations in Little Ireland. The Irish had arrived

Darling Willie Groves is a case in point leaving us to join Celtic to embrace the new professionalism winning the league with them and in true mercenary style leaving them in 1890 to join the professional ranks down south signing for West Brom where he won the FA Cup then shock of horrors he would sign for their arch enemy Aston Villa -after being poached -where he won the First Division Championship

In 1895 when Hibernian were eventually admitted into the big league in Scotland he returned to Hibernian where he would play in the first Scottish Cup Final to be played outside of Glasgow at New Logie Green against Hearts but unfortunately there would be no happy ending

Hibs had to embrace professionalism to survive as we rose like a phoenix from the ashes but ever since Darling Willie Groves and in particular with the lesser greens it has been very much a case of history repeating itself

[Waxy]

Thanks for posting an interesting read

There is no doubt that Celtic led to us temporarily going out of business

Hibernian Football Club as formed by Cardinal Hannon , Michael Whelahan and other Irish Catholic immigrants were formed as a charitable institution to help the local Irish community based in St Mary’s Hall under the auspices of the Catholic Young Men’s Society

Their main aim being to give young Catholic men some direction and purpose in life Apart from the growing popularity of football they also offered other past times such as music and drama and organised trips

HIBS or Hibernians were a big draw as being the only representatives of the ould country and at that time rightly or wrongly only played Irish Catholic’s and were very popular in the West with the large Irish community and were always an amateur football team with all profits being directed back into the community

Indeed when we won the Scottish Cup defeating Dumbarton 2-1 in the final in 1887 beaten semi-finalists Vale Of Leven had put in a protest before the final stating that Darling Willie Groves had received financial inducements over and above what should be expected by an amateur player

The Hearing was heard after the final and it was kicked out and HIBS held onto their trophy to great celebrations in Little Ireland The Irish had arrived

Darling Willie Groves is a case in point leaving us to join Celtic to embrace the new professionalism winning the league with them and in true mercenary style leaving them in 1890 to join the professional ranks down south signing for West Brom where he won the league then shock of horrors he would sign for the arch enemy Aston Villa after being poached where he won the FA Cup

In 1895 when Hibernian were eventually admitted into the big league in Scotland he returned to Hibernian where he would play in the first Scottish Cup Final to be played outside of Glasgow at New Logie Green against Hearts but unfortunately there would be no happy ending

Hibs had to embrace professionalism to survive as we rose like a phoenix from the ashes but ever since Darling Willie Groves and in particular with the lesser greens it has been very much a case of history repeating itself
If it wasn't Celtic it would have been some other club.Reality was it was professionalism that took our best players and you couldn't blame them.
Similar stories all the way since.If it wasn't for money would Leigh Griffiths play for Hibs or Celtic?

[BILLYHIBS]

If it wasn't Celtic it would have been some other club.Reality was it was professionalism that took our best players and you couldn't blame them.
Similar stories all the way since.If it wasn't for money would Leigh Griffiths play for Hibs or Celtic?
:agree:

See my last paragraph

[ErinGoBragh..]

Celtic slant but reasonable article:
https://thecelticstar.com/celtic-hibs-and-the-wearing-of-the-green-god-save-ireland-said-the-heroes/

[J-C]

:agree:

See my last paragraph


It's just a pity we didn't embrace professional football earlier, who knows how big we might have been through the decades, Celtic seen the opportunity and grasped it.

[BILLYHIBS]

It's just a pity we didn't embrace professional football earlier, who knows how big we might have been through the decades, Celtic seen the opportunity and grasped it.
The big problem was Celtic cut off our unlimited and undiluted supply of talent many of our players inc Willie Groves were from the West and Celtic signed the next big thing in young Kelly

We also had a huge supporters base in the West

I suppose initially many would say we were innocent and naive

[Waxy]

:agree:

See my last paragraphSorry yes i did read it.As JC says maybe if we had done it sooner?
From what i've read about hibs history we would have been thrown out if we'd payed our players as like Groves in the 1887 cup win.
Think we were just a bit unlucky at the time.
We had all our best player leave to go professional, we had a rouge steal money from us and we lost our ground as someone didnt renew the lease.Builders moved in and built Bothwell street over the ground pretty quickly.

[J-C]

The big problem was Celtic cut off our unlimited and undiluted supply of talent many of our players inc Willie Groves were from the West and Celtic signed the next big thing in young Kelly

We also had a huge supporters base in the West

I suppose initially many would say we were innocent and naive


I know we had many supporters from around Scotland because we were the original Irish Catholic team, when Celtic came into existence and became the 1st professional Irish associated club they jumped over to them, probably seeing them as the net step up into the new professional era.

[J-C]

Sorry yes i did read it.As JC says maybe if we had done it sooner?
From what i've read about hibs history we would have been thrown out if we'd payed our players as like Groves in the 1887 cup win.
Think we were just a bit unlucky at the time.
We had all our best player leave to go professional, we had a rouge steal money from us and we lost our ground as someone didnt renew the lease.Builders moved in and built Bothwell street over the ground pretty quickly.

I think all the things you mention here just goes to show how naive and really amateur our thinking was at the time, we lost ground and have never really made it up.

[BILLYHIBS]

Sorry yes i did read it.As JC says maybe if we had done it sooner?
From what i've read about hibs history we would have been thrown out if we'd payed our players as like Groves in the 1887 cup win.
Think we were just a bit unlucky at the time.
We had all our best player leave to go professional, we had a rouge steal money from us and we lost our ground as someone didnt renew the lease.Builders moved in and built Bothwell street over the ground pretty quickly.
‘Darling’ Willie Groves scored the winner

[Pagan Hibernia]

Celtic slant but reasonable article:
https://thecelticstar.com/celtic-hibs-and-the-wearing-of-the-green-god-save-ireland-said-the-heroes/

thanks for this, very interesting

[Waxy]

I think all the things you mention here just goes to show how naive and really amateur our thinking was at the time, we lost ground and have never really made it up.
Guess no one could predict the events and how it would affect us.
Perhaps it was a blessing in disguise?
Even if we did embrace professionalism at the same time as Celtic we may have ended up stuck at the Bothwell st ground.No way we could have built a ground like our current stadium in that location with the railway there.Plus celtic and rangers would still have moved way out front simply with the bigger city bigger fanbase thing.

[Waxy]

‘Darling’ Willie Groves scored the winnerHe did.Haven't read it for a while.Wasn't it a last minute winner at Cathkin park (old Hampden)?

[Pagan Hibernia]

Sorry yes i did read it.As JC says maybe if we had done it sooner?
From what i've read about hibs history we would have been thrown out if we'd payed our players as like Groves in the 1887 cup win.
Think we were just a bit unlucky at the time.
We had all our best player leave to go professional, we had a rouge steal money from us and we lost our ground as someone didnt renew the lease.Builders moved in and built Bothwell street over the ground pretty quickly.


yes, and as far as I know our co-founder father Hannon dies around the same time, 1891 I believe, which would have been another blow.

tough time to be a hibbee!

I’ll say this though, the bloodline running through our club is extraordinary... Pat Stanton being a descendant of Michael Whelahan, Tom Farmer being descended from Philip Farmer who helped us rebuild in the 1890s... there really is so much romance in the Hibernian story

[Keith_M]

I think the whole event blows out of the water the constant claims by Celtc of having such charitable foundations. That might have been the original intention but, let's face it, it didn't last long.

[BILLYHIBS]

He did.Haven't read it for a while.Wasn't it a last minute winner at Cathkin park (old Hampden)?
80th minute

Went on one of his amazing dribbling runs where he beat half the team before slotting it away

Dumbarton tried to claim offside :confused:


The Making of Hibernian: The Harp Awakes Alan Lugton

[Waxy]

yes, and as far as I know our co-founder father Hannon dies around the same time, 1891 I believe, which would have been another blow.

tough time to be a hibbee!

I’ll say this though, the bloodline running through our club is extraordinary... Pat Stanton being a descendant of Michael Whelahan, Tom Farmer being descended from Philip Farmer who helped us rebuild in the 1890s... there really is so much romance in the Hibernian storyThere certainly is.All from being formed in St Marys st halls.The building still stands on St Marys st and i always thought Hibs should try buy it and turn it into a Hibee museum.

[BILLYHIBS]

There certainly is.All from being formed in St Marys st halls.The building still stands on St Marys st and i always thought Hibs should try buy it and turn it into a Hibee museum.
:aok:

[Waxy]

80th minute

Went on one of his amazing dribbling runs where he beat half the team before slotting it away

Dumbarton tried to claim offside :confused:


The Making of Hibernian: The Harp Awakes Alan Lugton
I have the book and its a must read for all hibees interested in our history.Pity it all goes in one ear and out the other with me lol.

[Bishop Hibee]

Certainly gives the lie to the historical revisionism of Celtc being the underdogs and some left wing champion of the poor and downtrodden. Continues to this day with a billionaire owner. Reminds me of Chelsea who were started to make money.

[PatHead]

Celtic slant but reasonable article:
https://thecelticstar.com/celtic-hibs-and-the-wearing-of-the-green-god-save-ireland-said-the-heroes/

Interesting to note that we were the first club with a singing section. Wonder if they were behind the goals?

[Pretty Boy]

I always mean to spend a day visiting St Patrick's, St Mary's Halls, the memorials and graves of Michael Whelahan and Canon Hannan (The Grange and Mount Vernon I think?), the sites of the various grounds we have played on and the like.

Given the abundance of walking and driving tours in Edinburgh I wonder if there is scope for Hibs to offer something like that on a limiter basis?

[Billy Whizz]

I always mean to spend a day visiting St Patrick's, St Mary's Halls, the memorials and graves of Michael Whelahan and Canon Hannan (The Grange and Mount Vernon I think?), the sites of the various grounds we have played on and the like.

Given the abundance of walking and driving tours in Edinburgh I wonder if there is scope for Hibs to offer something like that on a limiter basis?

Not a bad idea
Sort of thing we should be running in conjunction with Edinburgh festival. A tour and a match ticket

[Iggy Pope]

I always mean to spend a day visiting St Patrick's, St Mary's Halls, the memorials and graves of Michael Whelahan and Canon Hannan (The Grange and Mount Vernon I think?), the sites of the various grounds we have played on and the like.

Given the abundance of walking and driving tours in Edinburgh I wonder if there is scope for Hibs to offer something like that on a limiter basis?

Accessing St Pats is easy enough but I’m not sure how you’d see anything of St Mary’s Street halls other than from the outside.
It was some place and central to schooling of those who attended St Pats school and church. Our first Holy Communion parties were held there, it was central to the community.
The Church itself is a magnificent look no matter your persuasion. I’m lapsed from a long time back but even walking past it fills me with emotion. And guilt!

[ErinGoBragh..]

Accessing St Pats is easy enough but I’m not sure how you’d see anything of St Mary’s Street halls other than from the outside.
It was some place and central to schooling of those who attended St Pats school and church. Our first Holy Communion parties were held there, it was central to the community.
The Church itself is a magnificent look no matter your persuasion. I’m lapsed from a long time back but even walking past it fills me with emotion. And guilt!

Aye me too!

[SideBurns]

Accessing St Pats is easy enough but I’m not sure how you’d see anything of St Mary’s Street halls other than from the outside.
It was some place and central to schooling of those who attended St Pats school and church. Our first Holy Communion parties were held there, it was central to the community.
The Church itself is a magnificent look no matter your persuasion. I’m lapsed from a long time back but even walking past it fills me with emotion. And guilt!

I got married in St.Pat's, marvellous church. Was also at Mass there on St.Patrick's Day 2013, when the plaque was unveiled; Hearts were playing in the League Cup Final, and Exuberant Rod made a speech which ended, "On St.Patrick's Day, let's also hope it's St.Mirren's day!"

This could easily be posted on the 'St.Mirren' thread too 😁

[Iggy Pope]

I got married in St.Pat's, marvellous church. Was also at Mass there on St.Patrick's Day 2013, when the plaque was unveiled; Hearts were playing in the League Cup Final, and Exuberant Rod made a speech which ended, "On St.Patrick's Day, let's also hope it's St.Mirren's day!"

This could easily be posted on the 'St.Mirren' thread too 😁

He did indeed alongside Pat Stanton and Pat Fenlon. I’ve written on here about my surroundings at St Pats before, it’s a magical place.

[James Stephen]

There certainly is.All from being formed in St Marys st halls.The building still stands on St Marys st and i always thought Hibs should try buy it and turn it into a Hibee museum.

Yeah, that would be amazing if the club (or a wealthy benefavtor) could do that

[brog]

My great grandparents were married in St Pats by then Father Edward Hannan in 1873. My grandfather was born in 1875. I was born in St Mary's St, 30 yards from the halls. I was baptised & married in St Pats & along with Gerry Docherty we found the 2 wonderful trophies featured in early pages of Gerry & Phil's book, 100 Years of Hibs. Like Iggy I'm extremely lapsed but I still love St Pats.
Re the graves, I think Michael W is in the cemetery behind FF stand & Canon Hannan is in The Grange.

[Iggy Pope]

My great grandparents were married in St Pats by then Father Edward Hannan in 1873. My grandfather was born in 1875. I was born in St Mary's St, 30 yards from the halls. I was baptised & married in St Pats & along with Gerry Docherty we found the 2 wonderful trophies featured in early pages of Gerry & Phil's book, 100 Years of Hibs. Like Iggy I'm extremely lapsed but I still love St Pats.
Re the graves, I think Michael W is in the cemetery behind FF stand & Canon Hannan is in The Grange.

I done everything out of St Pats as had my mother’s side of the family going back to Hannan but I’ve written about that before.
I took my confirmation name as Patrick in 1973 and in confirming me at mass at St Pats, old Cardinal Grey commented on how wonderful my choice was, being after the church and the school. He never knew it was more to do with our No 4. I later broke the chain by marrying in the Star of the Sea but plenty historical connection there too!
I could never imagine enough content for a sightseeing tour but a museum in St Mary’s Street or The Cowgate would be a momentous thing, even fan-driven. My subscription would start tomorrow.

[leith lynx]

There certainly is.All from being formed in St Marys st halls.The building still stands on St Marys st and i always thought Hibs should try buy it and turn it into a Hibee museum. where exactly are the halls on St. Mary's Street? Thanks in advance

[Waxy]

where exactly are the halls on St. Mary's Street? Thanks in advance
From memory they're around a third of the way down on the left hand side.You can see its been converted for some sort of business but the building is there.Unsure who has it now or what it's being used for.

[James Stephen]

From memory they're around a third of the way down on the left hand side.You can see its been converted for some sort of business but the building is there.Unsure who has it now or what it's being used for.

I think its a business training centre now?

[Brizo]

From memory they're around a third of the way down on the left hand side.You can see its been converted for some sort of business but the building is there.Unsure who has it now or what it's being used for.

Pretty sure it's a business centre or at least was last time I was down there. Remember when I was a mass goer going to mass in there, 80s maybe early 90s, when St Pats was getting painted or some kind of renovations. It was a big old building and was sold by the church not long after, no longer any need for it with most of the families having moved out of the area and decreasing church attendances.

[The Harp Awakes]

Celtic slant but reasonable article:
https://thecelticstar.com/celtic-hibs-and-the-wearing-of-the-green-god-save-ireland-said-the-heroes/

A decent read and pretty balanced I'd say.

[brog]

This thread made me dig out Volume 1 of the Lugton trilogy again. What a fantastic read, a true labour of love by a great Hibby & a great guy.

[Iggy Pope]

where exactly are the halls on St. Mary's Street? Thanks in advance

It’s on Boyds Entry, the only opening off St Mary’s Street. The side street takes you around to Chessels Court and the back of the Canongate.

[Pagan Hibernia]

This thread made me dig out Volume 1 of the Lugton trilogy again. What a fantastic read, a true labour of love by a great Hibby & a great guy.

it’s seriously annoying me that I can’t get a hold of these books... volume 1 doesn’t seem to be available anywhere, volume 2 is available on Amazon for close to £1000 :confused:


it’s become a personal holy grail to me

[The Harp]

There certainly is.All from being formed in St Marys st halls.The building still stands on St Marys st and i always thought Hibs should try buy it and turn it into a Hibee museum.

A Hibee museum on the site would be superb, but think we'd have to settle for a plaque on the building, and even that might be difficult.

A good few years back it became the Edinburgh Training and Conference Centre. I attended a few courses in it when I worked with the council. I hadn't been in the building for about 40 years and spent most of the time during the course thinking back to what it was like in the 50's when I was at St. Pat's cubs/scouts and school events in there.

Like a lot of folk I still get a nostalgic feeling just walking in the area around St. Pat's church, hope it opens its doors again soon.

[jacomo]

I'm thinking the Celtic version of events actually completely backs up the Hibs version - no denial of his actions, just an attempted positive spin on wanting to make money (not that making money is necessarily a bad thing, but in this context, it clearly was)


:agree:

Celtc played a **** move, no question. They don’t even deny breaking up the team of the club that had done so much to help them.

[leith lynx]

A Hibee museum on the site would be superb, but think we'd have to settle for a plaque on the building, and even that might be difficult.

A good few years back it became the Edinburgh Training and Conference Centre. I attended a few courses in it when I worked with the council. I hadn't been in the building for about 40 years and spent most of the time during the course thinking back to what it was like in the 50's when I was at St. Pat's cubs/scouts and school events in there.

Like a lot of folk I still get a nostalgic feeling just walking in the area around St. Pat's church, hope it opens its doors again soon.
Wall plaque would be a great idea for the 150th anniversary in 2025.

[James Stephen]

Wall plaque would be a great idea for the 150th anniversary in 2025.

Absolutely

[Liberal Hibby]

Don't suppose that John Glass is any (distant) relation to the late and unlamented Pastor Jack Glass?

Would be delicious if so.

[Fergos]

it’s seriously annoying me that I can’t get a hold of these books... volume 1 doesn’t seem to be available anywhere, volume 2 is available on Amazon for close to £1000 :confused:


it’s become a personal holy grail to me

Its worth checking in the Football programme shop in Albion Road PH, that’s where I got all 3 volumes a few years back now.

Good luck.

GGTTH

[jacomo]

A decent read and pretty balanced I'd say.


Yes but of course it doesn’t even bother to cover the less savoury aspects of the story.

Celtc romanticise their club and like to paint it as an honest and worthy institution. This is understandable, but the truth is that they were chancers from the start who nicked everything they could off hibs.

[AndyM_1875]

Yes but of course it doesn’t even bother to cover the less savoury aspects of the story.

Celtc romanticise their club and like to paint it as an honest and worthy institution. This is understandable, but the truth is that they were chancers from the start who nicked everything they could off hibs.

Yep. Their fans romanticise their own club and patronise us Hibs fans to a ludicrous degree.

I worked with a Celtic guy who was like that completely. One time we were attending a business meeting in Edinburgh and I got fed up with his nonsense about "soup-takers" and trying to paint Harry Swan as the devil. So I turned the car around and told him I was going to give him a history lesson. Drove the car down into the Cowgate and into what was Little Ireland, past the james Connolly plaque, past what was the Hibernian bar (later Sneeky Petes) and past St Pats church. Left into St Mary's Street pointing out the Halls now an IT Training Centre where HIbs were formed. Then down towards Easter Road past Bothwell Street, site of the First Hibernian Park, into Albion Road and stopping outside Easter Road Stadium pointing out the Eastern Cemetary on the left where many a good Hibbie including Dan McMichael has their final resting place. Finally moving off deeper into Leith and down to St Mary Star of the Sea, the home church of the heroes of 1891-92 including Philip Farmer who brought Hibernian FC back after the damage done by Celtic and others. Also home church to Monsignor Miley, good friend of Harry Swan and counsellor to the greatest post war team Scotland ever saw.

At that point I told him "and this is where your club was born out of and don't forget it".

[Mick O'Rourke]

Don't suppose that John Glass is any (distant) relation to the late and unlamented Pastor Jack Glass?

Would be delicious if so.

Over 40yr ago i met Glass and Paisley coming out the Usher Hall after one of their evangelical(anti Catholic) events.
I remember what i said to them.
"Call yersels Christians .Yer a pair of bigots" and a bit more !

Two or 3 well kent faces fae Tollcross who were "minding" them made moves to sort me out ,following me down Lothian Road
But i was "minded" by tougher "well kent" faces !

The bad old days

As for Celtic
I used to remind Celtic fans i knew by saying

"And if you know your history"

Usually met with silence or revisionism

[AndyM_1875]

Over 40yr ago i met Glass and Paisley coming out the Usher Hall after one of their evangelical(anti Catholic) events.
I remember what i said to them.
"Call yersels Christians .Yer a pair of bigots" and a bit more !

Two or 3 well kent faces fae Tollcross who were "minding" them made moves to sort me out ,following me down Lothian Road
But i was "minded" by tougher "well kent" faces !

The bad old days

As for Celtic
I used to remind Celtic fans i knew by saying

"And if you know your history"

Usually met with silence or revisionism

Heh! Good on you Mick.
Am I right in thinking Glass was the bible thumping bampot that used to protest Billy Connolly gigs in the 1970s. Always appeared an utterly ludicrous character.

[ErinGoBragh..]

Yep. Their fans romanticise their own club and patronise us Hibs fans to a ludicrous degree.

I worked with a Celtic guy who was like that completely. One time we were attending a business meeting in Edinburgh and I got fed up with his nonsense about "soup-takers" and trying to paint Harry Swan as the devil. So I turned the car around and told him I was going to give him a history lesson. Drove the car down into the Cowgate and into what was Little Ireland, past the james Connolly plaque, past what was the Hibernian bar (later Sneeky Petes) and past St Pats church. Left into St Mary's Street pointing out the Halls now an IT Training Centre where HIbs were formed. Then down towards Easter Road past Bothwell Street, site of the First Hibernian Park, into Albion Road and stopping outside Easter Road Stadium pointing out the Eastern Cemetary on the left where many a good Hibbie including Dan McMichael has their final resting place. Finally moving off deeper into Leith and down to St Mary Star of the Sea, the home church of the heroes of 1891-92 including Philip Farmer who brought Hibernian FC back after the damage done by Celtic and others. Also home church to Monsignor Miley, good friend of Harry Swan and counsellor to the greatest post war team Scotland ever saw.

At that point I told him "and this is where your club was born out of and don't forget it".

Monsignor Miley was parish priest at St Ninians in Marionville road but good post!

[Mick O'Rourke]

Heh! Good on you Mick.
Am I right in thinking Glass was the bible thumping bampot that used to protest Billy Connolly gigs in the 1970s. Always appeared an utterly ludicrous character.

The very same
He turned up with his fellow bigots on the Mound when Pope John Paul came to the city

Back then i used to "picket"along with others, the Protestant Action Society who would be at Speakers Corner every Sunday.
The filth they got away with back then.
One of them became a top official in the OO in Scotland

Sadly to this day such behaviour/views is still evident in many towns in Scotland and at one football ground

Lockdown July 12th !!

PS
Enjoyed your following post
Good stuff

[Pagan Hibernia]

Its worth checking in the Football programme shop in Albion Road PH, that’s where I got all 3 volumes a few years back now.

Good luck.

GGTTH

thanks mate, I’ll do that :aok:

[Waxy]

Yep. Their fans romanticise their own club and patronise us Hibs fans to a ludicrous degree.

I worked with a Celtic guy who was like that completely. One time we were attending a business meeting in Edinburgh and I got fed up with his nonsense about "soup-takers" and trying to paint Harry Swan as the devil. So I turned the car around and told him I was going to give him a history lesson. Drove the car down into the Cowgate and into what was Little Ireland, past the james Connolly plaque, past what was the Hibernian bar (later Sneeky Petes) and past St Pats church. Left into St Mary's Street pointing out the Halls now an IT Training Centre where HIbs were formed. Then down towards Easter Road past Bothwell Street, site of the First Hibernian Park, into Albion Road and stopping outside Easter Road Stadium pointing out the Eastern Cemetary on the left where many a good Hibbie including Dan McMichael has their final resting place. Finally moving off deeper into Leith and down to St Mary Star of the Sea, the home church of the heroes of 1891-92 including Philip Farmer who brought Hibernian FC back after the damage done by Celtic and others. Also home church to Monsignor Miley, good friend of Harry Swan and counsellor to the greatest post war team Scotland ever saw.

At that point I told him "and this is where your club was born out of and don't forget it".
That’s superb.

[Pretty Boy]

The very same
He turned up with his fellow bigots on the Mound when Pope John Paul came to the city

Back then i used to "picket"along with others, the Protestant Action Society who would be at Speakers Corner every Sunday.
The filth they got away with back then.
One of them became a top official in the OO in Scotland

Sadly to this day such behaviour/views is still evident in many towns in Scotland and at one football ground

Lockdown July 12th !!

PS
Enjoyed your following post
Good stuff

The BBC showed a documentary about Jack Glass a few years back, it was linked to him protesting a Marilyn Manson gig.

I believe his Zion Baptist Church is still around, they mustered about a dozen people to protest at the Papal visit in 2010.

[brog]

The BBC showed a documentary about Jack Glass a few years back, it was linked to him protesting a Marilyn Manson gig.

I believe his Zion Baptist Church is still around, they mustered about a dozen people to protest at the Papal visit in 2010.

John Cormack was the Edinburgh equivalent of Jack Glass. Was often to be found at the Mound on a Sunday preaching his anti-Catholic bile. Incredibly he was a councillor in Edinburgh for many years, until the 60's & at one time his Protestant Action Group got over 30% of the vote in Edinburgh. There's a good & satirical article from The Leither attached.


http://www.leithermagazine.com/2010/06/17/pen-portraits-issue-65.html

[Mick O'Rourke]

John Cormack was the Edinburgh equivalent of Jack Glass. Was often to be found at the Mound on a Sunday preaching his anti-Catholic bile. Incredibly he was a councillor in Edinburgh for many years, until the 60's & at one time his Protestant Action Group got over 30% of the vote in Edinburgh. There's a good & satirical article from The Leither attached.


http://www.leithermagazine.com/2010/06/17/pen-portraits-issue-65.html


If it was possible to be more of a bigot than Jack Glass then John Cormack was that.

He was a senior councillor at the Chambers and had his own office with toilet.

I remember former Leith MP, the late Ron Brown ,telling me that Cormack took the Catholic Herald when he used the toilet and it wisnae for reading !

I once knew a woman who was a keen ballroom dancer .
She and her partner won a competition at Leith Town Hall or The Thomas Morton Hall.
Cormack presented the prizes
She got her wrist watch from him.
He shunned her partner who was a Catholic.

If Cormack was around today his signature tune would be The Famine Song.

He publicly called for Irish and their descendants in Edinburgh and Leith to be "sent home"
He did a lot of damage in Leith with his rantings,yet he and others got elected.

After WW2 his party did not have as much support as it did in the 30s.
The man and his party where Fascists.

For those here who may have not heard of this man
Some info on the following link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Action_Society

[Kato]

Yep. Their fans romanticise their own club and patronise us Hibs fans to a ludicrous degree.

I worked with a Celtic guy who was like that completely. One time we were attending a business meeting in Edinburgh and I got fed up with his nonsense about "soup-takers" and trying to paint Harry Swan as the devil. So I turned the car around and told him I was going to give him a history lesson. Drove the car down into the Cowgate and into what was Little Ireland, past the james Connolly plaque, past what was the Hibernian bar (later Sneeky Petes) and past St Pats church. Left into St Mary's Street pointing out the Halls now an IT Training Centre where HIbs were formed. Then down towards Easter Road past Bothwell Street, site of the First Hibernian Park, into Albion Road and stopping outside Easter Road Stadium pointing out the Eastern Cemetary on the left where many a good Hibbie including Dan McMichael has their final resting place. Finally moving off deeper into Leith and down to St Mary Star of the Sea, the home church of the heroes of 1891-92 including Philip Farmer who brought Hibernian FC back after the damage done by Celtic and others. Also home church to Monsignor Miley, good friend of Harry Swan and counsellor to the greatest post war team Scotland ever saw.

At that point I told him "and this is where your club was born out of and don't forget it".

Brilliant. Whenever the subject arises I always remind Celtc fans their roots are 100% in Edinburgh. Their version of the Harry Swan saga is a fiction.

[AndyM_1875]

If it was possible to be more of a bigot than Jack Glass then John Cormack was that.

He was a senior councillor at the Chambers and had his own office with toilet.

I remember former Leith MP, the late Ron Brown ,telling me that Cormack took the Catholic Herald when he used the toilet and it wisnae for reading !

I once knew a woman who was a keen ballroom dancer .
She and her partner won a competition at Leith Town Hall or The Thomas Morton Hall.
Cormack presented the prizes
She got her wrist watch from him.
He shunned her partner who was a Catholic.

If Cormack was around today his signature tune would be The Famine Song.

He publicly called for Irish and their descendants in Edinburgh and Leith to be "sent home"
He did a lot of damage in Leith with his rantings,yet he and others got elected.

After WW2 his party did not have as much support as it did in the 30s.
The man and his party where Fascists.

For those here who may have not heard of this man
Some info on the following link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Action_Society

There was a talk done by Ian Wood at the St Pats Hibs Supporters Club that might interest you Mick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwRYfXTFOvM

He makes mention of Cormack and his whole PAS thing.

[Mick O'Rourke]

There was a talk done by Ian Wood at the St Pats Hibs Supporters Club that might interest you Mick
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwRYfXTFOvM

He makes mention of Cormack and his whole PAS thing.
Cheers Andy
I have seen that video like others on the St Patrick's Branch site.
I will watch it again
I know this thread has jumped from John Glass to Jack Glass then John Cormack

The Hibernian connection with Cormack would be our,Hibs Supporters and Edinburgh/Leith Irish, opposition (sometimes violent)to Cormack and his band.

http://tirnaog09.blogspot.com/2014/09/a-different-country.html

[Mick O'Rourke]

This thread made me dig out Volume 1 of the Lugton trilogy again. What a fantastic read, a true labour of love by a great Hibby & a great guy.


Indeed he was, Brian

I remember Alan from my early schooldays travelling on the St Giles bus.
I wish i had seen him in recent years to reminisce . I kept meaning to.
He and his pals on the bus always looked after us wee yins at away games .

Juvenile members though were not allowed to travel to Ibrox in those days

I wonder why !!

I gave my Volume 1 copy (and some other Hibs books)to an American cousin,who was born in The Market
You might remember him,,, Michael Flynn
I hope he read it and passed it on to his sons

[jacomo]

Yep. Their fans romanticise their own club and patronise us Hibs fans to a ludicrous degree.

I worked with a Celtic guy who was like that completely. One time we were attending a business meeting in Edinburgh and I got fed up with his nonsense about "soup-takers" and trying to paint Harry Swan as the devil. So I turned the car around and told him I was going to give him a history lesson. Drove the car down into the Cowgate and into what was Little Ireland, past the james Connolly plaque, past what was the Hibernian bar (later Sneeky Petes) and past St Pats church. Left into St Mary's Street pointing out the Halls now an IT Training Centre where HIbs were formed. Then down towards Easter Road past Bothwell Street, site of the First Hibernian Park, into Albion Road and stopping outside Easter Road Stadium pointing out the Eastern Cemetary on the left where many a good Hibbie including Dan McMichael has their final resting place. Finally moving off deeper into Leith and down to St Mary Star of the Sea, the home church of the heroes of 1891-92 including Philip Farmer who brought Hibernian FC back after the damage done by Celtic and others. Also home church to Monsignor Miley, good friend of Harry Swan and counsellor to the greatest post war team Scotland ever saw.

At that point I told him "and this is where your club was born out of and don't forget it".


Ha! Good work. The pathetic trashing of Harry Swan is really tedious.

I was once in a conversation with a Celtc fan, who on discovering I was a Hibby then gave it the condescending patter. It was ok until he actually used the phrase: “If you know your history...”

I interrupted him.

“Aye I do actually, but it sounds like you don’t know yours.”

It then got a bit heated. Which was a little embarrassing, as we were both guests at a wedding...

[Scotty Leither]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Edinburgh-Divided-Tom-Gallagher/dp/0948275405

"Tom Gallagher - Edinburgh Divided".

I recommend the above book - it goes into minute and fascinating detail about how Cormack rose to prominence and one chapter lists prominent Edinburgh businessman of the time who made sizeable donations to the Protestant action "cause".

I'd venture they'd be able to mask their donations a bit more discreetly now using creative accountancy, but in them days it seems they were more than happy to display their genteel Edinburgh bigotry a bit more overtly.

There's also a harrowing account of when Edinburgh hosted the Eucharistic congress in 1935 at St Andrew's Priory in Morningside when him and 3,000 knuckle-draggers mobbed up to disrupt proceedings.

A very enlightening, if grimly depressing book which also touches on the roots of Hibs and Hearts in the city. I'd recommend it, but if you click on the link you'll see that it's £40-odd to source and buy a copy - save yourself the money and go to the Edinburgh room at the Central library and browse their (reference-only) copy. I read it in an afternoon.

On a related note, my late father (whose mother originated from 1st-generation Irish migrants in the Cowgate) knew of Cormack, and Dad's eloquent description of him was that he was "a wee snotter".

Lastly, I do a walking tour of the Old Town in the summer months, and I partly cover the migration of the Irish into what became Little Ireland, and I think a guided walk around the area encompassing St Pats/St Mary's street and site of the halls would be extremely popular with both Hibees and tourists.

As someone said further up the thread, we could maybe incorporate the walk with a match ticket/tour of the stadium and generate some money and new fans for the club; also get the HHT involved too?

I'd offer my time for free to pool research notes and personal anecdotes and try and pull something together, if anyone else is interested?

This is a good watch too...

https://www.facebook.com/EdinburghRCdiocese/posts/worth-a-watch-the-morningside-riots-it-sounds-like-an-oxymoron-doesnt-it-back-in/1689842341086863/

[Mikers110]

If it was possible to be more of a bigot than Jack Glass then John Cormack was that.

He was a senior councillor at the Chambers and had his own office with toilet.

I remember former Leith MP, the late Ron Brown ,telling me that Cormack took the Catholic Herald when he used the toilet and it wisnae for reading !

I once knew a woman who was a keen ballroom dancer .
She and her partner won a competition at Leith Town Hall or The Thomas Morton Hall.
Cormack presented the prizes
She got her wrist watch from him.
He shunned her partner who was a Catholic.

If Cormack was around today his signature tune would be The Famine Song.

He publicly called for Irish and their descendants in Edinburgh and Leith to be "sent home"
He did a lot of damage in Leith with his rantings,yet he and others got elected.

After WW2 his party did not have as much support as it did in the 30s.
The man and his party where Fascists.

For those here who may have not heard of this man
Some info on the following link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Action_Society

There is a link at the bottom of the Wikipedia page to "A very Edinburgh riot".

Good read if you want some detailed info on the subject of Cormack.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Interesting thread with lots of nice tangents but aren't we missing out (perhaps deliberately) Hibs roll in their own demise.��

Hibs were not some cosy wee club playing after church on a Sunday for the love of the game bulldozed by the big bad Celtic.

Hibs were still fundamentally an Irish club in complete turmoil because of the question of Irish Home rule.

The team for example travelled to London to listen to Parnell's Irish Home rule debate and Irish guest speakers such as Michael Davitt addressed the crowd at matches or at meetings in St Mary's Hall.

Hibs became a club in complete turmoil split between the conservative religious founders who believed that peaceful means should be used to support Irish home rule and the younger secular element who believed that violence was a means to an end.

This resulted in a club torn by division and internal disputes which resulted in many committee men resigning in protest.

Added to all this political strife, the club treasurer absconded to Canada with all the clubs money hence Hibs were financially bankrupt.

Celtic of course did there bit to add to the complete misery but it was an open goal.

Lugton to his credit addresses all these issues but reading through this thread and you can't help but think its not just Celtic fans who don't know their history.

[AndyM_1875]

Ha! Good work. The pathetic trashing of Harry Swan is really tedious.

I was once in a conversation with a Celtc fan, who on discovering I was a Hibby then gave it the condescending patter. It was ok until he actually used the phrase: “If you know your history...”

I interrupted him.

“Aye I do actually, but it sounds like you don’t know yours.”

It then got a bit heated. Which was a little embarrassing, as we were both guests at a wedding...Lolz. What is it about weddings that brings out these things? I had my own experience with an uber Hun who nearly turned purple with rage when my wife cheerfully sang out "oh my Andy is a Hibs man, Season Ticket holder and Shareholder. I'm only surprised he didn't run on the pitch at the Cup final.."

He wouldn't even make eye contact after that[emoji23][emoji23]

Sent from my FIG-LX1 using Tapatalk

[Kato]

Added to all this political strife, the club treasurer absconded to Canada with all the clubs money hence Hibs were financially bankrupt.
.
.


There were aspects other than Celtics invention. In fact if you look at the actual timeline Hibs survived Celtics inception.

Your overstating the above as well. Bankruptcy for an amateur sports club wasn't a reality and the amount involved didnt have the impact your inferring.

The main aspect of Hibs getting into difficulty was Trinity Hospital wanting to sell the land on which the original ground and its surrounds stood. Hibs took their eye off that aspect given the political turmoil mentioned elsewhere in your post.

It meant we didnt have anywhere to play home games, just as the sport was turning professional legally, rather than illegally as Celtc preferred it.


Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[The Baldmans Comb]

There were aspects other than Celtics invention. In fact if you look at the actual timeline Hibs survived Celtics inception.

Your overstating the above as well. Bankruptcy for an amateur sports club wasn't a reality and the amount involved didnt have the impact your inferring.

The main aspect of Hibs getting into difficulty was Trinity Hospital wanting to sell the land on which the original ground and its surrounds stood. Hibs took their eye off that aspect given the political turmoil mentioned elsewhere in your post.

It meant we didnt have anywhere to play home games, just as the sport was turning professional legally, rather than illegally as Celtc preferred it.


Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

I actually agree entirely as Hibs survived Celtic's inception in 1888 without any problems and extremely cordial relations existed between the two clubs over the next year.

Other events then transpired to destroy Hibs but these were mostly internal matters starting with your accurate fact they no longer had a ground to play on due to the Trinity land sale.

We will have to agree to disagree about the significance of trying to operate any organisation without any money due to McFadyen absconding to Canada.

I would see this as fundamental to renting the land needed for a new ground, paying player incidental expenses and transporting the team to fixtures as well as balls, officials and refreshments.

Resignations, spaces on the management committee and all round ill feeling and rancour due to the Irish political question of the day just added to a club on the verge of falling apart.

Hibs didn't even turn up in 1890 when the Scottish league was founded which can hardly be blamed on Celtic.

Its just all a bit more complicated than some Hibs fans narritive which consists of "Celtic stole all our players and the Hibs went bankrupt" which isnt an accurate representation of such an interesting part of football and local history.

[Brizo]

If it was possible to be more of a bigot than Jack Glass then John Cormack was that.

He was a senior councillor at the Chambers and had his own office with toilet.

I remember former Leith MP, the late Ron Brown ,telling me that Cormack took the Catholic Herald when he used the toilet and it wisnae for reading !

I once knew a woman who was a keen ballroom dancer .
She and her partner won a competition at Leith Town Hall or The Thomas Morton Hall.
Cormack presented the prizes
She got her wrist watch from him.
He shunned her partner who was a Catholic.

If Cormack was around today his signature tune would be The Famine Song.

He publicly called for Irish and their descendants in Edinburgh and Leith to be "sent home"
He did a lot of damage in Leith with his rantings,yet he and others got elected.

After WW2 his party did not have as much support as it did in the 30s.
The man and his party where Fascists.

For those here who may have not heard of this man
Some info on the following link

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protestant_Action_Society

My late dad used to tell us about him and his Old Town pals gathering at Speakers Corner which I think was at the foot of the Mound in the years after WW2 to listen to speakers including Cormack. One speaker was talking about a famous Canadian fighter pilot and war hero who was shot down and killed during WW2. The pilot also happened to be Catholic. Cormack's response was "his miraculous medals didn't help him". By that time Cormack had ceased being a political force but his views hadn't changed

Very interesting discussion on Hibs demise and some great points made by Kato and The Baldmans Comb. To use a modern day word our demise was more "nuanced" than Celtic stole our players. However always good to call Celtic out on their cynical commercialism since 1888, their Harry Swan myths and the fact that we were first to wear the green.

[Kato]

Am always reminded of this cracking thread when these discussions arise.

Hibbybrian :not worth


https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?208277-Very-Rare-Early-Celtic-Photo-with-Hibees-Phil-Clarke-and-Pat-Dowling-1889&p=2899529&highlight=#post2899529

[Lancs Harp]

Am always reminded of this cracking thread when these discussions arise.

Hibbybrian :not worth


https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?208277-Very-Rare-Early-Celtic-Photo-with-Hibees-Phil-Clarke-and-Pat-Dowling-1889&p=2899529&highlight=#post2899529

One slight chinq in one of Brians replies there in saying that Glasgow Hibernian predated Celtic. To my knowledge they didnt and were formed from a breakaway from Celtic by some directors basically not happy with the over commercial direction Celtic were following so broke away to form their own club based more on our Hibs model. Celtic as we all know were formed in 1888, Glasgow Hibernians short life began in 1889 and was all over before the end of the following year.

Interesting thread though, well both this one and the one in link above.

[Iggy Pope]

Am always reminded of this cracking thread when these discussions arise.

Hibbybrian :not worth


https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?208277-Very-Rare-Early-Celtic-Photo-with-Hibees-Phil-Clarke-and-Pat-Dowling-1889&p=2899529&highlight=#post2899529

I’d long forgotten that one, wonder what happened to Glasgow guy.

R.I.P. Brian.

[Kato]

I’d long forgotten that one, wonder what happened to Glasgow guy.

Puff of smoke when the chance for him to be a smarty pants disappeared.


R.I.P. Brian.

Used to see him up on GIVB a lot at the libraries. Didn't know he had left us. RIP.

[Greencore]

Why do we have 1875 in the badge if we weren't formed then? The old hibernians went under.

Have we only won the Scottish Cup twice then?

Should we change our name back to hibernians?

Never knew Glasgow hibernian existed, they also played in green and maroon....

[Kato]

Why do we have 1875 in the badge if we weren't formed then? The old hibernians went under.

Have we only won the Scottish Cup twice then?

Should we change our name back to hibernians?

Never knew Glasgow hibernian existed, they also played in green and maroon....I not sure we were ever called "Hibernians".

When Philip Farmer took over the club from the CYMS it was called a "resuscitation ".

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[brog]

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Edinburgh-Divided-Tom-Gallagher/dp/0948275405

"Tom Gallagher - Edinburgh Divided".

I recommend the above book - it goes into minute and fascinating detail about how Cormack rose to prominence and one chapter lists prominent Edinburgh businessman of the time who made sizeable donations to the Protestant action "cause".

I'd venture they'd be able to mask their donations a bit more discreetly now using creative accountancy, but in them days it seems they were more than happy to display their genteel Edinburgh bigotry a bit more overtly.

There's also a harrowing account of when Edinburgh hosted the Eucharistic congress in 1935 at St Andrew's Priory in Morningside when him and 3,000 knuckle-draggers mobbed up to disrupt proceedings.

A very enlightening, if grimly depressing book which also touches on the roots of Hibs and Hearts in the city. I'd recommend it, but if you click on the link you'll see that it's £40-odd to source and buy a copy - save yourself the money and go to the Edinburgh room at the Central library and browse their (reference-only) copy. I read it in an afternoon.

On a related note, my late father (whose mother originated from 1st-generation Irish migrants in the Cowgate) knew of Cormack, and Dad's eloquent description of him was that he was "a wee snotter".

Lastly, I do a walking tour of the Old Town in the summer months, and I partly cover the migration of the Irish into what became Little Ireland, and I think a guided walk around the area encompassing St Pats/St Mary's street and site of the halls would be extremely popular with both Hibees and tourists.

As someone said further up the thread, we could maybe incorporate the walk with a match ticket/tour of the stadium and generate some money and new fans for the club; also get the HHT involved too?

I'd offer my time for free to pool research notes and personal anecdotes and try and pull something together, if anyone else is interested?

This is a good watch too...

https://www.facebook.com/EdinburghRCdiocese/posts/worth-a-watch-the-morningside-riots-it-sounds-like-an-oxymoron-doesnt-it-back-in/1689842341086863/

Great post, Thanks!

[BILLYHIBS]

I have just finished reading ‘ The Delaney’s of Edinburgh ‘ by Patricia Delaney Dishon based on a true story which is an interesting read and tells the story of an immigrant Irish family integrating into ‘Little Ireland ‘ and Scottish society in general and all the political, religious, social, health and economic problems they had to face during a time of great hardship, poor sanitation and disease tracing a family’s struggles all the way through from the early 1800s to the turn of the 20th Century

I would recommend this book to anyone from a HIBS point of view as everything is centred around St Mary’s Hall, St Pats and the Cowgate. Canon Hannan is a prominent figure in the local community and it also gives a wonderful account and description of our first Scottish Cup win in 1887 and the celebrations that followed in the Cowgate after an official reception in St Mary’s Hall for all the Officials and players

Every window in St Mary’s Street that night burnt a green lantern as a show of support for the Hibernians giving the street an eerie glow

It also gives a very good account of Charles Stewart Parnell’s visit to Edinburgh in 1889 where he gave a great speech to thousands of spectators on Calton Hill and was given the freedom of the city but this was later rescinded

He sadly passed away in 1891 from pneumonia after marrying his divorced widow

[The Harp]

Totally agree with BillyHibs, fascinating book with a great amount of Hibs content, particularly the build up and celebrations surrounding our first Cup win in 1887.

A few years ago I attended a talk in Portobello library given by the writer in which she gave a background to her writing of the book.

The book is a must read for anyone with an interest in the early days of Hibernian. Totally enthralling.

[Logie Green]

Puff of smoke when the chance for him to be a smarty pants disappeared.



Used to see him up on GIVB a lot at the libraries. Didn't know he had left us. RIP.

Apologies for going slightly off topic but is the Brian referred to the late Brian Mark from Tranent?

[Iggy Pope]

Puff of smoke when the chance for him to be a smarty pants disappeared.



Used to see him up on GIVB a lot at the libraries. Didn't know he had left us. RIP.


https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?335283-HibbyBrian-RIP/page2&highlight=Hibbybrian

[Iggy Pope]

Apologies for going slightly off topic but is the Brian referred to the late Brian Mark from Tranent?

Different Brian but another great Hibby

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?283736-Brian-Mark

[brog]

Different Brian but another great Hibby

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?283736-Brian-Mark

I always assumed they were 1 & the same.

[Logie Green]

Thanks for the replies. 👍

[Scotty Leither]

I have just finished reading ‘ The Delaney’s of Edinburgh ‘ by Patricia Delaney Dishon based on a true story which is an interesting read and tells the story of an immigrant Irish family integrating into ‘Little Ireland ‘ and Scottish society in general and all the political, religious, social, health and economic problems they had to face during a time of great hardship, poor sanitation and disease tracing a family’s struggles all the way through from the early 1800s to the turn of the 20th Century

I would recommend this book to anyone from a HIBS point of view as everything is centred around St Mary’s Hall, St Pats and the Cowgate. Canon Hannan is a prominent figure in the local community and it also gives a wonderful account and description of our first Scottish Cup win in 1887 and the celebrations that followed in the Cowgate after an official reception in St Mary’s Hall for all the Officials and players

Every window in St Mary’s Street that night burnt a green lantern at the window as a show of support for the Hibernians giving the street an eerie glow

It also gives a very good account of Charles Stewart Parnell’s visit to Edinburgh in 1889 where he gave a great speech to thousands of spectators on Calton Hill and was given the freedom of the city but this was later rescinded

He sadly passed away in 1891 from pneumonia after marrying his divorced widow

Thanks for the tip - I ordered this last night on Abe Books - only £6.00

Another one for the collection! :aok:

[Mick O'Rourke]

Thanks for the tip - I ordered this last night on Abe Books - only £6.00

Another one for the collection! :aok:
The Gallagher book is very good and informative.
A must read for those interested in social history and the Congress section is harrowing. Cormack was clearly an evil man.
Need to get it again.
Loaned one i had to a hun i worked with and didn't get it back
I will get my grandson to buy the Delaney book for me online:aok:

GGTTH
HGSP
SOL

[Logie Green]

Thanks for the tip - I ordered this last night on Abe Books - only £6.00

Another one for the collection! :aok:

Thanks for the tip. I had a look and one of the selling prices is £16.90.
🤷*♂️🤦*♂️🥁🤹*♀️

[BILLYHIBS]

Thanks for the tip. I had a look and one of the selling prices is £16.90.
🤷*♂️🤦*♂️🥁🤹*♀️

A couple still on eBay as well

[ErinGoBragh..]

A couple still on eBay as well

Cheers for the tip ordered one from Amazon.

[BILLYHIBS]

Cheers for the tip ordered one from Amazon.
👍😀⚽️🏆🇳🇬

[The Count]

I was also led to believe that the St.Giles branch was named after a pub ( now Fiddlers?) in the Grassmarket.Does anybody know if thats true?Also never know that Nips o Brandy/Sneeky Petes was called the Hibernian Bar in the 1880s.Again can anyone confirm if this is true?

[Mick O'Rourke]

I was also led to believe that the St.Giles branch was named after a pub ( now Fiddlers?) in the Grassmarket.Does anybody know if thats true?Also never know that Nips o Brandy/Sneeky Petes was called the Hibernian Bar in the 1880s.Again can anyone confirm if this is true?

The St Giles pub was locally known as O'Rourke's ,when i was younger.
(The owner Frank O'Rourke no relation, but family friends,)
It was my grandads local .
He lived opposite in 17 Grassmarket.
It is the pub where Jimmy O'Rourke left the Hibs party in the North British hotel(Balmoral hotel) to give grandad his League Cup medal.
The pub went mad !! Singing and dancing !
Great Hibs pub and base for St Giles members.
The Grassmarket was in the local /municipal ward of St Giles.

[The Harp]

I was also led to believe that the St.Giles branch was named after a pub ( now Fiddlers?) in the Grassmarket.Does anybody know if thats true?Also never know that Nips o Brandy/Sneeky Petes was called the Hibernian Bar in the 1880s.Again can anyone confirm if this is true?

When I started travelling with the St. Giles branch in '63, the bus left from a pub further east on the Grassmarket. I can't recall the name of it, it was possibly the Old Market Bar or The Carriers' Rest. It was on the site of the Last Drop, or close to it.

Over the 7 years or so that I travelled with the branch, we very occasionally left from the St. Giles Bar (now Fiddlers as already mentioned) and a couple of times from The Quill on George IV Bridge.

I can remember some of the older guys in the branch back then had dark green ties with small white crown spires printed on them, so I'd imagine the branch took its name from the cathedral, that's only an assumption though.

I've heard about the Hibernian bar over the years but don't know exactly where its location was on the Cowgate. The most likely site however would be Sneaky Pete's.

The St Giles was a great branch to be a member of back then, and was well run by Bernie G, who was like a 2nd dad to us young guys. The branch is in good hands these days too under the care of Jack Ernest.