Another black American killed by police.

[-Jonesy-]

Yup, Cummings and Johnson.

Beat me to it

[Glory Lurker]

The people of the UK isolated themselves, abandoned our elderly to die alone, missed funerals, can't visit loved ones in hospital, cancelled weddings, cancer treatments etc not completed, destroyed businesses, our recovering economy is back down the drain its shattered our children’s and grandchildren's futures, some folk are on the bones of their backsides .

Yet these clowns toss aside that sacrifice
To gather for something that did not happen in this country and to honour a man who shouldn’t have been killed in the way he was.

Should we get second wave of the Coronavirus in a few weeks and locked down again. I Hope everyone knows who to blame!!

:agree:

[Glory Lurker]

Yup, Cummings and Johnson.


:agree:


Beat me to it

I despair of these men as much as the next decent person, but I can’t see how they will be responsible for a spike in 2 weeks time (if it happens). The protesters are presumably principled people, but their principles don’t extend to protecting their own communities?

[Hibrandenburg]

Indeed, and that includes some sections of the media.

It's either safe to gather in large groups, with little social distancing, or it's not.

It's mental, wonder why people all of a sudden decided to flout the rules? :wink:

[lapsedhibee]

I despair of these men as much as the next decent person, but I can’t see how they will be responsible for a spike in 2 weeks time (if it happens). The protesters are presumably principled people, but their principles don’t extend to protecting their own communities?

Using their British common sense, as encouraged from the top. Different from yours and mine, but actively encouraged to do it.

[Hibrandenburg]

I despair of these men as much as the next decent person, but I can’t see how they will be responsible for a spike in 2 weeks time (if it happens). The protesters are presumably principled people, but their principles don’t extend to protecting their own communities?

Why should they give a **** when the people making the rules obviously don't?

[hibsbollah]

The people of the UK isolated themselves, abandoned our elderly to die alone, missed funerals, can't visit loved ones in hospital, cancelled weddings, cancer treatments etc not completed, destroyed businesses, our recovering economy is back down the drain its shattered our children’s and grandchildren's futures, some folk are on the bones of their backsides .

Yet these clowns toss aside that sacrifice
To gather for something that did not happen in this country and to honour a man who shouldn’t have been killed in the way he was.

Should we get second wave of the Coronavirus in a few weeks and locked down again. I Hope everyone knows who to blame!!

I have an interest because my 16 year old daughter is going to Holyrood tomorrow. My 25 yo in Glasgow isn’t going to the one over there, partly because she’s worried about the right wing hun counter protestor element.

Social distancing has been breaking down for a week or so now. The streets are filling up with cars. Parks are heaving, even without the sunshine. My 13 yo went away with 4 of his mates and sneaked through a hole in the fence intomeggetland and played fives :faf: I doubt social distancing was adhered to. Cycling today across Midlothian and there were breaches every 30 seconds or so. And what triggered this? The Cummings cluster****. So yeah, I think society is following cues from its leaders. They allowed 250000 to gather at Cheltenham in March and 50000 at Anfield, two weeks after the Italians were telling us the implications of that.

If we do get a second wave, people will find people to blame who fit their prejudices. I will blame the Tory government, which is unsurprising for me :greengrin If you feel like blaming the people there tomorrow, that’s your prerogative.

[Glory Lurker]

Using their British common sense, as encouraged from the top. Different from yours and mine, but actively encouraged to do it.


Why should they give a **** when the people making the rules obviously don't?

Aye, but that’s just it. You can’t be mad at Cummings for what he did one week, then participate in something that’s exponentially (for want of a better word) more risky the next. Them being pricks is no excuse for good people to be the same.

[jonty]

Why would you do this?

https://abc7chicago.com/armed-bystanders-line-black-lives-matter-protest-in-crown-point/6234379/

[calumhibee1]

The people of the UK isolated themselves, abandoned our elderly to die alone, missed funerals, can't visit loved ones in hospital, cancelled weddings, cancer treatments etc not completed, destroyed businesses, our recovering economy is back down the drain its shattered our children’s and grandchildren's futures, some folk are on the bones of their backsides .

Yet these clowns toss aside that sacrifice
To gather for something that did not happen in this country and to honour a man who shouldn’t have been killed in the way he was.

Should we get second wave of the Coronavirus in a few weeks and locked down again. I Hope everyone knows who to blame!!

Yup. Should never have been allowed to go ahead given the circumstances.

[Pretty Boy]

Aye, but that’s just it. You can’t be mad at Cummings for what he did one week, then participate in something that’s exponentially (for want of a better word) more risky the next. Them being pricks is no excuse for good people to be the same.

I think it comes down to the complete abdication of personal responsibility we have seen from a minority throughout. I broke the lockdown rules twice that I can recall, on both occasions it was a wilful act on my part. I can't say Calderwood, Ferguson or Cummings entered my thought process.

Of course I don't speak for everyone and the behaviour of Cummings in particular is very problematic. Is it the motivating factor behind people meeting multiple people or going to a protest though? I reckon it's far more likely people have just had enough of lockdown.

[Hibby Bairn]

Irresponsible tossers the lot of them.

[calumhibee1]

I think it comes down to the complete abdication of personal responsibility we have seen from a minority throughout. I broke the lockdown rules twice that I can recall, on both occasions it was a wilful act on my part. I can't say Calderwood, Ferguson or Cummings entered my thought process.

Of course I don't speak for everyone and the behaviour of Cummings in particular is very problematic. Is it the motivating factor behind people meeting multiple people or going to a protest though? I reckon it's far more likely people have just had enough of lockdown.

:agree:

Guys a bellend but I very much doubt it’s had much impact on peoples decision to break the rules.

[lapsedhibee]

Aye, but that’s just it. You can’t be mad at Cummings for what he did one week, then participate in something that’s exponentially (for want of a better word) more risky the next. Them being pricks is no excuse for good people to be the same.

Looking forward to Govey coming on all the talk shows tomorrow morning to say that it's not a crime to care about black people.

[lapsedhibee]

:agree:

Guys a bellend but I very much doubt it’s had much impact on peoples decision to break the rules.

Has for some:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/articles-reports/2020/06/03/one-five-have-started-breaking-lockdown-rules-more

[Pretty Boy]

Has for some:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/health/articles-reports/2020/06/03/one-five-have-started-breaking-lockdown-rules-more

Is that just a convenient go to excuse for some? It's the kind of thing I could imagine myself saying when I was 14 or 15.

'Why did you sneak out the house and meet your ******** mates to drink cider and intimidate strangers?'

'Well Marks mum said it was OK and James was allowed and Dominic Cummings broke the rules. It' s so unfair that I'm getting pulled up for it.'

I broke the rules to see my sister on her birthday. I'd rather own that than try to place the blame on something that has no direct influence on my own actions.

[lapsedhibee]

Is that just a convenient go to excuse for some? It's the kind of thing I could imagine myself saying when I was 14 or 15.

'Why did you sneak out the house and meet your ******** mates to drink cider and intimidate strangers?'

'Well Marks mum said it was OK and James was allowed and Dominic Cummings broke the rules. It' s so unfair that I'm getting pulled up for it.'

I broke the rules to see my sister on her birthday. I'd rather own that than try to place the blame on something that has no direct influence on my own actions.

In that survey, older people (65+) mentioned it more than teenagers. Page 4 here: https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/g91tliqnvg/InternalResults_SSDailyTracker_200530.pdf

And the tellybox vox pop opinions seemed to be genuine enough.

But who really knows.

[Pretty Boy]

In that survey, older people (65+) mentioned it more than teenagers. Page 4 here: https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/g91tliqnvg/InternalResults_SSDailyTracker_200530.pdf

And the tellybox vox pop opinions seemed to be genuine enough.

But who really knows.

I think the biggest consequence of Cummings actions is that he has given people the excuse. It's arguably harder to justify saying 'I'm breaking the rules because I want to see my friends, hug them, have a bbq and a few drinks' than 'well if it's OK for them then it's OK for us'.

I suppose it ultimately amounts to the same thing. I hope my posts don't read as defending Johnson and his boss.

[Berwickhibby]

I have an interest because my 16 year old daughter is going to Holyrood tomorrow. My 25 yo in Glasgow isn’t going to the one over there, partly because she’s worried about the right wing hun counter protestor element.

Social distancing has been breaking down for a week or so now. The streets are filling up with cars. Parks are heaving, even without the sunshine. My 13 yo went away with 4 of his mates and sneaked through a hole in the fence intomeggetland and played fives :faf: I doubt social distancing was adhered to. Cycling today across Midlothian and there were breaches every 30 seconds or so. And what triggered this? The Cummings cluster****. So yeah, I think society is following cues from its leaders. They allowed 250000 to gather at Cheltenham in March and 50000 at Anfield, two weeks after the Italians were telling us the implications of that.

If we do get a second wave, people will find people to blame who fit their prejudices. I will blame the Tory government, which is unsurprising for me :greengrin If you feel like blaming the people there tomorrow, that’s your prerogative.

Couple of points, Yes Cummings behaved like an idiot and should of resigned, Johnson behaved like a bigger idiot by not sacking him. On the corona virus thread, I slated the Government about Cheltenham, Annfield, Rugby etc Also slated Holyrood for Rugby Huns European Game. Stereohonics concert etc but got lambasted as it was not Holyroods fault as FM advised about gatherings. It was obvious to everyone the country needed to go into lockdown. Everyone except the Tories.

It's nothing to do with prejudice if we get a huge spike in a few weeks...more down to physical numbers close together in the street.

[Hibby Bairn]

I have an interest because my 16 year old daughter is going to Holyrood tomorrow. My 25 yo in Glasgow isn’t going to the one over there, partly because she’s worried about the right wing hun counter protestor element.

Social distancing has been breaking down for a week or so now. The streets are filling up with cars. Parks are heaving, even without the sunshine. My 13 yo went away with 4 of his mates and sneaked through a hole in the fence intomeggetland and played fives :faf: I doubt social distancing was adhered to. Cycling today across Midlothian and there were breaches every 30 seconds or so. And what triggered this? The Cummings cluster****. So yeah, I think society is following cues from its leaders. They allowed 250000 to gather at Cheltenham in March and 50000 at Anfield, two weeks after the Italians were telling us the implications of that.

If we do get a second wave, people will find people to blame who fit their prejudices. I will blame the Tory government, which is unsurprising for me :greengrin If you feel like blaming the people there tomorrow, that’s your prerogative.

Cummings isn’t the reason imo. It’s too easy and convenient an excuse. People in this country just seem to think they can do what they want.

A genuine question for you. What did you say to your 13, 16 and 25 yr olds about breaching the rules. Did you give them any guidance or advice?

I’m not judging btw....just interested in whether parental “guidance” still holds sway.

[Glory Lurker]

Already seeing today's events being cited by right wing folk as a reason to disregard lockdown. Inevitable. Neither better than the other today, sadly.

[hibsbollah]

Cummings isn’t the reason imo. It’s too easy and convenient an excuse. People in this country just seem to think they can do what they want.

A genuine question for you. What did you say to your 13, 16 and 25 yr olds about breaching the rules. Did you give them any guidance or advice?

I’m not judging btw....just interested in whether parental “guidance” still holds sway.

For the 13yo, I told him to try to keep 2m, which he already knows, but I knew he was taking a ball and he’s meeting 4 other kids, and I knew the implications of that. It’s very hard to police now. He hasn’t seen his mates for almost 3months and he’s been struggling. Me and the Missus let him do it and on balance I think the risk was low.

The girl I’m very conflicted about. I’ve never seen her so angry about anything in the news, ever I think. I wish she wasn’t going but I’m not going to lock her in either. I’ve seen plenty of social distance breaches by people trying to buy plastic garden furniture, is protesting against injustice a worse reason or is it all the same?

[Sir David Gray]

For the 13yo, I told him to try to keep 2m, which he already knows, but I knew he was taking a ball and he’s meeting 4 other kids, and I knew the implications of that. It’s very hard to police now. He hasn’t seen his mates for almost 3months and he’s been struggling. Me and the Missus let him do it and on balance I think the risk was low.

The girl I’m very conflicted about. I’ve never seen her so angry about anything in the news, ever I think. I wish she wasn’t going but I’m not going to lock her in either. I’ve seen plenty of social distance breaches by people trying to buy plastic garden furniture, is protesting against injustice a worse reason or is it all the same?

Assuming there's not a crowd of thousands all congregating round a few bits of garden furniture then I would say attending the protests is a lot more potentially dangerous in terms of spreading the virus.

[Sir David Gray]

The people of the UK isolated themselves, abandoned our elderly to die alone, missed funerals, can't visit loved ones in hospital, cancelled weddings, cancer treatments etc not completed, destroyed businesses, our recovering economy is back down the drain its shattered our children’s and grandchildren's futures, some folk are on the bones of their backsides .

Yet these clowns toss aside that sacrifice
To gather for something that did not happen in this country and to honour a man who shouldn’t have been killed in the way he was.

Should we get second wave of the Coronavirus in a few weeks and locked down again. I Hope everyone knows who to blame!!


Couple of points, Yes Cummings behaved like an idiot and should of resigned, Johnson behaved like a bigger idiot by not sacking him. On the corona virus thread, I slated the Government about Cheltenham, Annfield, Rugby etc Also slated Holyrood for Rugby Huns European Game. Stereohonics concert etc but got lambasted as it was not Holyroods fault as FM advised about gatherings. It was obvious to everyone the country needed to go into lockdown. Everyone except the Tories.

It's nothing to do with prejudice if we get a huge spike in a few weeks...more down to physical numbers close together in the street.

100% :top marks

[Hibrandenburg]

I think the biggest consequence of Cummings actions is that he has given people the excuse. It's arguably harder to justify saying 'I'm breaking the rules because I want to see my friends, hug them, have a bbq and a few drinks' than 'well if it's OK for them then it's OK for us'.

I suppose it ultimately amounts to the same thing. I hope my posts don't read as defending Johnson and his boss.

I think you're right. The whole Cummings saga and similar actions from other people tasked with running the country and the crisis has given many the excuse they needed.

[spike220]

I think you're right. The whole Cummings saga and similar actions from other people tasked with running the country and the crisis has given many the excuse they needed.

Anyone that uses modern day sports personalities as a role mode for anything other than sports is detached from reality. As a society we place far too much emphasis on the behaviors of a small group of people that have a very specific skill set.

[Sir David Gray]

Anyone that uses modern day sports personalities as a role mode for anything other than sports is detached from reality. As a society we place far too much emphasis on the behaviors of a small group of people that have a very specific skill set.

Is this a whoosh moment for me here?

[Hibrandenburg]

Anyone that uses modern day sports personalities as a role mode for anything other than sports is detached from reality. As a society we place far too much emphasis on the behaviors of a small group of people that have a very specific skill set.

We definitely do. Otherwise why would companies spend billions getting well know personalities from all walks of life to advertise their products. At least on a subliminal level, people are sheep.

[wpj]

I have been in hospital and in bed for two weeks, yesterday I went to Cambridge city centre and took the knee, face mask, gloves and protested with black, Asian whites and everyone who had had enough. Trump, Boris, nah. No more

[Keith_M]

Assuming there's not a crowd of thousands all congregating round a few bits of garden furniture then I would say attending the protests is a lot more potentially dangerous in terms of spreading the virus.


:agree:


That's just a poor excuse, IMO.

If anybody has actually been shopping recently, there's an incredible effort being put in place to keep people at a safe distance from each other and members of staff cleaning baskets and trolleys before anyone else uses them.

There's simply no comparison between that and large groups of people with often very little distance between them.

[green&left]

The people of the UK isolated themselves, abandoned our elderly to die alone, missed funerals, can't visit loved ones in hospital, cancelled weddings, cancer treatments etc not completed, destroyed businesses, our recovering economy is back down the drain its shattered our children’s and grandchildren's futures, some folk are on the bones of their backsides .

Yet these clowns toss aside that sacrifice
To gather for something that did not happen in this country and to honour a man who shouldn’t have been killed in the way he was.

Should we get second wave of the Coronavirus in a few weeks and locked down again. I Hope everyone knows who to blame!!

Those who implemented and tolerated decades/centuries of discrimination and racism and world leaders who have done very little to end it?

Don't think its really for white people in a predominantly white country to say when black and other minorities can protest against discrimination.

[B.H.F.C]

Those who implemented and tolerated decades/centuries of discrimination and racism and world leaders who have done very little to end it?

Don't think its really for white people in a predominantly white country to say when black and other minorities can protest against discrimination.

Ordinarily, I don’t think anybody would be against any form of protest. Violence, aye but protest, naw.

But when large gatherings are banned during a global health emergency which has brought the country to a standstill, then I think people are more than entitled to say it shouldn’t be going ahead.

The cause is worthy, the timing is horrendous.

[hibsbollah]

:agree:


That's just a poor excuse, IMO.

If anybody has actually been shopping recently, there's an incredible effort being put in place to keep people at a safe distance from each other and members of staff cleaning baskets and trolleys before anyone else uses them.

There's simply no comparison between that and large groups of people with often very little distance between them.

Well there IS a comparison, because both activities DO involve large groups of people congregating and little social distancing! Because today’s event hasn’t happened yet, I don’t know how much distancing we’re actually talking about. (Masks were also widely worn at yesterday’s peaceful demos). I accept that in most cases, a political demonstration will have more risk of transmitting Covid than a busy retail park.


The point I was making is, all activities at the moment represent risk to varying degrees. It’s up to everyone to make balanced assessments as to how risky that behaviour is. There’s also the question of how necessary or worthwhile or valuable that activity is. We all have different views about that. Some of those views are very predictable and political and some of them are of course genuine.

[Sir David Gray]

Well there IS a comparison, because both activities DO involve large groups of people congregating and little social distancing! Because today’s event hasn’t happened yet, I don’t know how much distancing we’re actually talking about. (Masks were also widely worn at yesterday’s peaceful demos). I accept that in most cases, a political demonstration will have more risk of transmitting Covid than a busy retail park.


The point I was making is, all activities at the moment represent risk to varying degrees. It’s up to everyone to make balanced assessments as to how risky that behaviour is. There’s also the question of how necessary or worthwhile or valuable that activity is. We all have different views about that. Some of those views are very predictable and political and some of them are of course genuine.

It's not up to everyone to assess, that's why we have a government backed by scientists providing emergency laws and guidance on what people should and shouldn't be doing at this present moment - and no I'm not talking about Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, I'm talking about the Scottish government who, as far as I'm aware, have been consistent in their message all along.

Nicola Sturgeon said on Friday that in normal times she would probably be joining the protest herself but she wouldn't be at this one because it's not safe. Is she wrong?

I'm also not sure what you're meaning about some views are predictable and political and some are genuine. For the avoidance of doubt I can assure you my views are very much in the latter camp. As someone who has followed every single lockdown rule since the 23rd March, except for one day when I went out for two periods of exercise, seeing what's happened this weekend has really annoyed and frustrated me and I wonder why I've even bothered with not seeing friends or family for the best part of the last 3 months.

Everyone attending mass gatherings at the moment, whether they be Black Lives Matter protests, anti-lockdown protests or VE Day celebrations is putting the recovery of our nation from this virus at risk and their actions are a huge insult to the NHS workers that we have just applauded on a weekly basis for 10 weeks straight. They'll be the ones who will have to pick up the pieces if there is a resurgence of this virus again as a result of what's happened this weekend.

[Berwickhibby]

It's not up to everyone to assess, that's why we have a government backed by scientists providing emergency laws and guidance on what people should and shouldn't be doing at this present moment - and no I'm not talking about Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, I'm talking about the Scottish government who, as far as I'm aware, have been consistent in their message all along.

Nicola Sturgeon said on Friday that in normal times she would probably be joining the protest herself but she wouldn't be at this one because it's not safe. Is she wrong?

I'm also not sure what you're meaning about some views are predictable and political and some are genuine. For the avoidance of doubt I can assure you my views are very much in the latter camp. As someone who has followed every single lockdown rule since the 23rd March, except for one day when I went out for two periods of exercise, seeing what's happened this weekend has really annoyed and frustrated me and I wonder why I've even bothered with not seeing friends or family for the best part of the last 3 months.

Everyone attending mass gatherings at the moment, whether they be Black Lives Matter protests, anti-lockdown protests or VE Day celebrations is putting the recovery of our nation from this virus at risk and their actions are a huge insult to the NHS workers that we have just applauded on a weekly basis for 10 weeks straight. They'll be the ones who will have to pick up the pieces if there is a resurgence of this virus again as a result of what's happened this weekend.

100% :top marks spot on

[hibsbollah]

It's not up to everyone to assess, that's why we have a government backed by scientists providing emergency laws and guidance on what people should and shouldn't be doing at this present moment - and no I'm not talking about Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, I'm talking about the Scottish government who, as far as I'm aware, have been consistent in their message all along.

Nicola Sturgeon said on Friday that in normal times she would probably be joining the protest herself but she wouldn't be at this one because it's not safe. Is she wrong?

I'm also not sure what you're meaning about some views are predictable and political and some are genuine. For the avoidance of doubt I can assure you my views are very much in the latter camp. As someone who has followed every single lockdown rule since the 23rd March, except for one day when I went out for two periods of exercise, seeing what's happened this weekend has really annoyed and frustrated me and I wonder why I've even bothered with not seeing friends or family for the best part of the last 3 months.

Everyone attending mass gatherings at the moment, whether they be Black Lives Matter protests, anti-lockdown protests or VE Day celebrations is putting the recovery of our nation from this virus at risk and their actions are a huge insult to the NHS workers that we have just applauded on a weekly basis for 10 weeks straight. They'll be the ones who will have to pick up the pieces if there is a resurgence of this virus again as a result of what's happened this weekend.

What I mean by genuine and predictable is we are all outraged by different things based on our belief systems. I’m not having a go at you, we’ve been posting on here for a long time and we all have a fair idea of what our respective posts are going to be about.

[weecounty hibby]

It's not up to everyone to assess, that's why we have a government backed by scientists providing emergency laws and guidance on what people should and shouldn't be doing at this present moment - and no I'm not talking about Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, I'm talking about the Scottish government who, as far as I'm aware, have been consistent in their message all along.

Nicola Sturgeon said on Friday that in normal times she would probably be joining the protest herself but she wouldn't be at this one because it's not safe. Is she wrong?

I'm also not sure what you're meaning about some views are predictable and political and some are genuine. For the avoidance of doubt I can assure you my views are very much in the latter camp. As someone who has followed every single lockdown rule since the 23rd March, except for one day when I went out for two periods of exercise, seeing what's happened this weekend has really annoyed and frustrated me and I wonder why I've even bothered with not seeing friends or family for the best part of the last 3 months.

Everyone attending mass gatherings at the moment, whether they be Black Lives Matter protests, anti-lockdown protests or VE Day celebrations is putting the recovery of our nation from this virus at risk and their actions are a huge insult to the NHS workers that we have just applauded on a weekly basis for 10 weeks straight. They'll be the ones who will have to pick up the pieces if there is a resurgence of this virus again as a result of what's happened this weekend.
Apart from the VE Day celebrations being actively encouraged by the English government and right leaning press you are spot on. We have followed the guidance as a family as it's been released, sadly I was in Wales when it for the rugby when it was deemed safe to be in groups and came back with the virus and then passed it to my wife. Luckily none of the kids have had it due to them being firmly isolated even when we were ill.

[calumhibee1]

It's not up to everyone to assess, that's why we have a government backed by scientists providing emergency laws and guidance on what people should and shouldn't be doing at this present moment - and no I'm not talking about Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings, I'm talking about the Scottish government who, as far as I'm aware, have been consistent in their message all along.

Nicola Sturgeon said on Friday that in normal times she would probably be joining the protest herself but she wouldn't be at this one because it's not safe. Is she wrong?

I'm also not sure what you're meaning about some views are predictable and political and some are genuine. For the avoidance of doubt I can assure you my views are very much in the latter camp. As someone who has followed every single lockdown rule since the 23rd March, except for one day when I went out for two periods of exercise, seeing what's happened this weekend has really annoyed and frustrated me and I wonder why I've even bothered with not seeing friends or family for the best part of the last 3 months.

Everyone attending mass gatherings at the moment, whether they be Black Lives Matter protests, anti-lockdown protests or VE Day celebrations is putting the recovery of our nation from this virus at risk and their actions are a huge insult to the NHS workers that we have just applauded on a weekly basis for 10 weeks straight. They'll be the ones who will have to pick up the pieces if there is a resurgence of this virus again as a result of what's happened this weekend.

:agree:

[Hibbyradge]

This is worth watching.

https://twitter.com/PACAF/status/1268794618461618177?s=09

[bigwheel]

This is worth watching.

https://twitter.com/PACAF/status/1268794618461618177?s=09

Powerful . An education ......Thanks for sharing

[Hibbyradge]

This is from the BBC;

"Black Americans are jailed at five times the rate of white Americans and sentenced for drug offences six times more, often despite equal rates of drug use, according to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP)."

[bigwheel]

This is from the BBC;

"Black Americans are jailed at five times the rate of white Americans and sentenced for drug offences six times more, often despite equal rates of drug use, according to the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP)."

This is a wonderful articulation of racism from a UK perspective ..worth a watch


https://twitter.com/politicsjoe_uk/status/1268264740171759616?s=21

[Hibbyradge]

This is a wonderful articulation of racism from a UK perspective ..worth a watch


https://twitter.com/politicsjoe_uk/status/1268264740171759616?s=21

Thanks for that. Very thought provoking.

I was particularly taken by the conclusion about being anti-racist, even when we make mistakes.

[Mon Dieu4]

For the 13yo, I told him to try to keep 2m, which he already knows, but I knew he was taking a ball and he’s meeting 4 other kids, and I knew the implications of that. It’s very hard to police now. He hasn’t seen his mates for almost 3months and he’s been struggling. Me and the Missus let him do it and on balance I think the risk was low.

The girl I’m very conflicted about. I’ve never seen her so angry about anything in the news, ever I think. I wish she wasn’t going but I’m not going to lock her in either. I’ve seen plenty of social distance breaches by people trying to buy plastic garden furniture, is protesting against injustice a worse reason or is it all the same?

You should be proud of her for going, from what I've seen it looked really well organised and they adhered to social distancing well too:agree:

[hibsbollah]

You should be proud of her for going, from what I've seen it looked really well organised and they adhered to social distancing well too:agree:

She’s come back saying the same thing, organisers keeping everyone 2m apart, they used the whole of the space, totally different to the pictures from London. About ten different speakers and the majority seemed to be young first time protestors.

[Pretty Boy]

She’s come back saying the same thing, organisers keeping everyone 2m apart, they used the whole of the space, totally different to the pictures from London. About ten different speakers and the majority seemed to be young first time protestors.

I popped along for a short time and stood at a distance. It certainly looked night and day to the scenes from down south. Massive credit to the organisers for that.

I'm somewhat apathetic to mass protest now. The 2003 anti war demos scunnered me. However it was heartening to see so many young people there today. The challenge is to keep them involved in and engaged with politics. Young people vote in low numbers because politicians don't talk to them.

[hibsbollah]

I popped along for a short time and stood at a distance. It certainly looked night and day to the scenes from down south. Massive credit to the organisers for that.

I'm somewhat apathetic to mass protest now. The 2003 anti war demos scunnered me. However it was heartening to see so many young people there today. The challenge is to keep them involved in and engaged with politics. Young people vote in low numbers because politicians don't talk to them.

I also think there’s an issue with the normal protestor demographic. It’s normally middle aged, middle class in a Millie Tant from Viz kind of way. I went to the Trump protests after his election and I found the whole atmosphere exclusive and unwelcoming. Anything that freshens that up is welcome.

[Pretty Boy]

I also think there’s an issue with the normal protestor demographic. It’s normally middle aged, middle class in a Millie Tant from Viz kind of way. I went to the Trump protests after his election and I found the whole atmosphere exclusive and unwelcoming. Anything that freshens that up is welcome.

Definitely agree with that.

People often bristle when the phrase 'professional protesters' is used but there are occasions when it is an entirely fitting description. A whole load of angry young people from a range of backgrounds is welcome imo.

[lapsedhibee]

She’s come back saying the same thing, organisers keeping everyone 2m apart, they used the whole of the space, totally different to the pictures from London. About ten different speakers and the majority seemed to be young first time protestors.

Strong, consistent messaging from ScotGov (to protestors and, I imagine, to organisers as well)? Weak, confusing messaging to protestors south of the border and I'd be surprised if Patel even bothered to contact organisers. Maybe Hancock did, as it's been his life's mission to end discrimination?

[660]

The documentary “The 13th” on Netflix is worth a watch. It’s a year or two old but talks about the current issues in the US.

EDIT: It’s actually 4 years old

[Ozyhibby]

The documentary “The 13th” on Netflix is worth a watch. It’s a year or two old but talks about the current issues in the US.

EDIT: It’s actually 4 years old

I was just about to post that. I’m watching it just now and it’s very interesting. Well worth a watch.


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[wpj]

Today, my neighbourhood in Cambridge who have been out every Thursday to clap the real heroes of the pandemic all came out of our houses to take the knee and have a minutes silence. Now, I'm currently in a mess healthwise and taking the knee was difficult with a walking stick. My neighbour ran to me to help me stand up cos I was unable to. He has offered to go shopping for me, it's time we all look after each other

[Hibby Bairn]

Today, my neighbourhood in Cambridge who have been out every Thursday to clap the real heroes of the pandemic all came out of our houses to take the knee and have a minutes silence. Now, I'm currently in a mess healthwise and taking the knee was difficult with a walking stick. My neighbour ran to me to help me stand up cos I was unable to. He has offered to go shopping for me, it's time we all look after each other

Fai dos mate but my immediate thought was WTF.

[wpj]

Fai dos mate but my immediate thought was WTF.

Story of my life mate, I never know when to do anything sensible 🙄

[CapitalGreen]

Story of my life mate, I never know when to do anything sensible 🙄

If you felt like showing your respects then who is anyone else to judge mate 👍

[wpj]

If you felt like showing your respects then who is anyone else to judge mate 👍

Thank you, I would do it over and over if it helps anyone. This needs to end.

[EH6 Hibby]

The documentary “The 13th” on Netflix is worth a watch. It’s a year or two old but talks about the current issues in the US.

EDIT: It’s actually 4 years old

I mentioned this documentary a few days ago on this thread, I was recommending someone that didn’t seem to understand the Black Lives Matter movement that they watch it. I actually watched it again myself after posting that, and it’s just as powerful as I remembered it.

[Keith_M]

She’s come back saying the same thing, organisers keeping everyone 2m apart, they used the whole of the space, totally different to the pictures from London. About ten different speakers and the majority seemed to be young first time protestors.


The organisers seem to have been really careful and taken on board government advice.

I think both the organisers and attendees deserve a lot of praise for that.

[calumhibee1]

The organisers seem to have been really careful and taken on board government advice.

I think both the organisers and attendees deserve a lot of praise for that.

:agree:

I still think it shouldn’t have went ahead given the current situation but thankfully it appears everyone done all they could to reduce the risk.

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/motherjones/status/1270059322806923264?s=21

I suppose when you can kill people at will, what’s a bit of criminal damage?


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[jonty]

23544

[Keith_M]

23544



I read in one newspaper today that, on a Black Lives Matter poster in England, somebody had painted over the word 'Black' and replaced it with 'All'.

Their motives might have been considered 'ambigious', were it not for the fact that that they had painted the letters 'EDL' on the walls around it.

[Keith_M]

Just got an E-Mail from my work saying that, to show solidarity with those on the receiving end of racism, they're encouraging everyone to 'take the knee' at 11:00-EST today.

As almost all of the tens of thousands of their employees worldwide are currently working from home, I'm struggling to see the point of that.

Wouldn't it be simpler, and more effective, if they just issued a public statement to the effect that they abhor racism?

[EH6 Hibby]

If anyone hasn’t seen it, Netflix have made the documentary 13th available free to watch on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/krfcq5pF8u8

[-Jonesy-]

NASCAR has just announced it had banned confederate flags at all official events.

That’s going to cause a huge fallout of it’s mainly southern Trumpy Fan base

[Radium]

NASCAR has just announced it had banned confederate flags at all official events.

That’s going to cause a huge fallout of it’s mainly southern Trumpy Fan base

https://twitter.com/nascar/status/1270819350644211719?s=21

... lots of unhappy white blokes.

I’m assuming that is the end of the Dukes of Hazard as well.


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[hibsbollah]

If anyone hasn’t seen it, Netflix have made the documentary 13th available free to watch on YouTube.

https://youtu.be/krfcq5pF8u8

I’ve just watched this, outstanding. Lots I already knew but lots that was new to me. The squirming ALEC representative when questioned about the home incarceration programme was the highlight.

[Pretty Boy]

NASCAR has just announced it had banned confederate flags at all official events.

That’s going to cause a huge fallout of it’s mainly southern Trumpy Fan base

What is is with Americans and burning stuff?

'I'm burning all my NASCAR merchandise'

It was the same when Nike released the Kap shoes. One guy went out and bought a pair just to burn them. That'll teach them.

[-Jonesy-]

What is is with Americans and burning stuff?

'I'm burning all my NASCAR merchandise'

It was the same when Nike released the Kap shoes. One guy went out and bought a pair just to burn them. That'll teach them.

Don’t really get away with doing it to crosses anymore

[Mibbes Aye]

https://twitter.com/nascar/status/1270819350644211719?s=21

... lots of unhappy white blokes.

I’m assuming that is the end of the Dukes of Hazard as well.


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Sheriff Roscoe was doggone not happy when he heard that Bo and Luke took the General Lee out and shook things up. Daisy wasn’t impressed and Roscoe was madder than a weasel in a gum bush. When Boss Hogg finds out he will be out with his funny money. That’s Hazzard folks.

[Vault Boy]

Don’t really get away with doing it to crosses anymore

I wish this was incorrect, but it's an eerie parallel.

[Betty Boop]

Rayshard Brooks shot dead by police in Atlanta.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53037953

[Stairway 2 7]

Good chance he'd be alive if he never attacked officers and aimed a tazer at them

[calumhibee1]

Good chance he'd be alive if he never attacked officers and aimed a tazer at them

:agree:

Folk protesting and burning down restaurants because a man who aimed a weapon at the police after drink driving then had to be stopped using deadly force.

It really doesn’t help all the good that the protests over the last few weeks are hoping to achieve.

[bigwheel]

:agree:

Folk protesting and burning down restaurants because a man who aimed a weapon at the police after drink driving then had to be apprehended using deadly force.

It really doesn’t help all the good that the protests over the last few weeks are hoping to achieve.

So it is now acceptable to shoot someone dead who has a non lethal taser ? Where does that stop ? This is part of the major issue, taking someone’s life when they resist arrest rather than arresting them ..what happened to chase and call for more back up ?


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[calumhibee1]

So it is now acceptable to shoot someone dead who has a non lethal taser ? Where does that stop ? This is part of the major issue, taking someone’s life when they resist arrest rather than arresting them ..what happened to chase and call for more back up ?


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Tasers can and have been known to kill people. They also can cause serious injury. Let’s not make out like the guy was carrying a super soaker.

Maybe, just maybe, the major issue in this case was stealing a weapon off a police officer and trying to use it on them?

[lapsedhibee]

:agree:

Folk protesting and burning down restaurants because a man who aimed a weapon at the police after drink driving then had to be apprehended using deadly force.


"Apprehended"?

[Stairway 2 7]

Police just have to stand and get tazered, Darwin award for the jake trying to tazer armed officers . There will be big trouble in ten years as no one in there right mind will apply to be a police officer. America is knackered police officers need guns because so many of the population have guns madness

[Betty Boop]

:agree:

Folk protesting and burning down restaurants because a man who aimed a weapon at the police after drink driving then had to be apprehended using deadly force.

It really doesn’t help all the good that the protests over the last few weeks are hoping to achieve.


Really? Why did he have to be apprehended using deadly force ?

[calumhibee1]

"Apprehended"?

You’re right, wrong word :aok:

[calumhibee1]

Really? Why did he have to be apprehended using deadly force ?

Why did he have to drink drive, resist arrest and steal a police officers weapon and then turn it on them? Maybe that’s the issue here?

[bigwheel]

Tasers can and have been known to kill people. They also can cause serious injury. Let’s not make out like the guy was carrying a super soaker.

It has been stated it was a police non lethal taser...they knew what the weapon was..he took it from them. So that is the standard now ? Because someone can hurt someone they get killed ? they are now allowed to serve a death sentence just because it’s not an easy arrest ?


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[calumhibee1]

It has been stated it was a police non lethal taser...they knew what the weapon was..he took it from them. So that is the standard now ? Because someone can hurt someone they get killed ? they are now allowed to serve a death sentence just because it’s not an easy arrest ?


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Ok. The police should have stood there, allowed the guy to use the taser on them (A taser that the police are trained to use, highly likely this guy isn’t) and stroll off into the night. He would most likely have even got back in his car and carried on drink driving - and of course he could have potentially killed somebody.

But it’s fine, all he was doing was drink driving, resisting arrest and stealing a police officers weapon. No biggie. Guy seems a reasonable type so they probably should have just had a blether with him.

[bigwheel]

Ok. The police should have stood there, allowed the guy to use the taser on them (A taser that the police are trained to use, highly likely this guy isn’t) and stroll off into the night. He would most likely have even got back in his car and carried on drink driving - and of course he could have potentially killed somebody.

But it’s fine, all he was doing was drink driving, resisting arrest and stealing a police officers weapon. No biggie. Guy seems a reasonable type so they probably should have just had a blether with him.

So you are fine that they killed him, because he was a difficult arrest ? What if that was your brother or friend ? Still OK with that ?


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[lapsedhibee]

Ok. The police should have stood there, allowed the guy to use the taser on them (A taser that the police are trained to use, highly likely this guy isn’t) and stroll off into the night. He would most likely have even got back in his car and carried on drink driving - and of course he could have potentially killed somebody.


Shooting him in the leg would have stopped most of those undesirable consequences, no?

[Stairway 2 7]

So you are fine that they killed him, because he was a difficult arrest ? What if that was your brother or friend ? Still OK with that ?


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I'd be ashamed of my brother what kind of half wit aims a tazer at an armed person 😂 nitwit

[calumhibee1]

So you are fine that they killed him, because he was a difficult arrest ? What if that was your brother or friend ? Still OK with that ?


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Where did I say I was fine that they killed him? Of course it would be the best case scenario if they hadn’t. I didn’t think something so obvious would have needed pointed out.

Thankfully my brother or pals wouldn’t be stupid enough to drink drive, resist arrest, steal a police officers weapon and then attempt to use it on them.

Like I said, people rioting on the back of this are doing the BLM cause more harm than good. He wasn’t killed because he was black, he was killed because of his ridiculous actions. Using it as a reason to burn down somebody’s business and riot is absolutely no help whatsoever to the BLM cause.

[lapsedhibee]

I'd be ashamed of my brother what kind of half wit aims a tazer at an armed person 😂 nitwit

He wouldn't have had to steal the taser if he'd been properly armed in the first place. The sooner the US introduces some form of Universal Basic Armament for poorfolks the better, and they've probably only got until November to do it.

[bigwheel]

I'd be ashamed of my brother what kind of half wit aims a tazer at an armed person [emoji23] nitwit

So you are supporting the armed police that killed him, For being a “nitwit”. That’s your view ?


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[bigwheel]

Where did I say I was fine that they killed him? Of course it would be the best case scenario if they hadn’t. I didn’t think something so obvious would have needed pointed out.

Thankfully my brother or pals wouldn’t be stupid enough to drink drive, resist arrest, steal a police officers weapon and then attempt to use it on them.

Like I said, people rioting on the back of this are doing the BLM cause more harm than good. He wasn’t killed because he was black, he was killed because of his actions. Using it as a reason to burn down somebody’s business and riot is absolutely no help whatsoever to the BLM cause.

are you reading what you are writing? “Best case scenario is that they didn’t kill him”. The best case is a long way before that..

People protesting this death are absolutely right to do so. Police can’t execute people, just because they are aggressive towards them. The force of their response is completely out of proportion.

Why are you focusing on the people who turn it into a riot ? There will be many more who are simply protesting, without violence . Saying “enough is enough “ . I stand with them.


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[Stairway 2 7]

So you are supporting the armed police that killed him, For being a “nitwit”. That’s your view ?


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It would be better if police weren't armed but that's not sensible in America where its rediculously legal to have guns. In the heat of the moment there was only one outcome. If he was white he'd be dead too. Protests and burning Wendy's is rediculous. This has nothing to do with the horrific murder of Floyd

[Stairway 2 7]

Good luck to America if they get there way and police stop being armed when all the criminals are, it'd be like wild West in 5 years

[calumhibee1]

are you reading what you are writing? “Best case scenario is that they didn’t kill him”. The best case is a long way before that..

People protesting this death are absolutely right to do so. Police can’t execute people, just because they are aggressive towards them. The force of their response is completely out of proportion.

Why are you focusing on the people who turn it into a riot ? There will be many more who are simply protesting, without violence . Saying “enough is enough “ . I stand with them.


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What? The best case scenario is they didn’t kill him? Surely that covers all bases before the point of killing him - whether that’s a peaceful arrest, a less peaceful arrest, a non fatal shooting etc. You’re just wanting to try and paint what I’ve said to suit your argument. Again, I didn’t think I’d have to point out something as obvious as a peaceful arrest would have been the best scenario once the guy had failed his breathalyser test.

What’s your best case scenario if it’s not a peaceful arrest where they didn’t kill him?

Why am I focusing on the people who are turning it into a riot and burning down restaurants? Because I was saying that they were doing more harm than good to be doing that under BLM. Again, that was pretty clear from my previous posts when I’ve said that the people who are doing that are doing more harm than good for the BLM movement.

[Beefster]

Shooting him in the leg would have stopped most of those undesirable consequences, no?

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of the latest murder, it’s a movie fantasy that most police/people can aim and hit a limb in anything other than a controlled environment (or that it’ll stop the person shot).

[JimBHibees]

Why did he have to drink drive, resist arrest and steal a police officers weapon and then turn it on them? Maybe that’s the issue here?

The two points are not the same.

[calumhibee1]

The two points are not the same.

As Beefster said, the idea that the police are going to stand in a drive thru of an open restaurant taking shots at a guys legs - shots that there’s a good chance they’re going to miss, while he runs around with a police officers weapon that he’s stolen off them after resisting arrest for drink driving is absolute fantasy.

What happens when the guy decides to use the taser on someone at the restaurant? Say a child for instance. The police would then be slaughtered for not stopping him when they have the means to do so.

The guy is illegally possessing a weapon in a public place whilst also having shown himself to be raj enough to drink drive, resist arrest, break free, steal the police officers weapon, attempt to use it on them and attempt to go on the run. And the police are suppose to take shots at his leg that they’re unlikely to actually hit him with and just pray to god he doesn’t something else insanely stupid with the weapon he’s illegally running around with?

[bigwheel]

What? The best case scenario is they didn’t kill him? Surely that covers all bases before the point of killing him - whether that’s a peaceful arrest, a less peaceful arrest, a non fatal shooting etc. You’re just wanting to try and paint what I’ve said to suit your argument. Again, I didn’t think I’d have to point out something as obvious as a peaceful arrest would have been the best scenario once the guy had failed his breathalyser test.

What’s your best case scenario if it’s not a peaceful arrest where they didn’t kill him?

Why am I focusing on the people who are turning it into a riot and burning down restaurants? Because I was saying that they were doing more harm than good to be doing that under BLM. Again, that was pretty clear from my previous posts when I’ve said that the people who are doing that are doing more harm than good for the BLM movement.

At times in this you have justified the police’s actions ...”so they should just have stood there should they ? Type of comments.

Im focussing on supporting the anger related to the unlawful murder of a man, rather than the actions in anger of the protests. You seem to be focussing in the latter. Many BLM supporters will likely be dismayed at the rioting, but their true anger will be towards prejudice and another unjustified slaying of another guy.


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[calumhibee1]

At times in this you have justified the police’s actions ...”so they should just have stood there should they ? Type of comments.

Im focussing on supporting the anger related to the unlawful murder of a man, rather than the actions in anger of the protests. You seem to be focussing in the latter. Many BLM supporters will likely be dismayed at the rioting, but their true anger will be towards prejudice and another unjustified slaying of another guy.


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I have. Imo their actions were justified - although of course it would have been preferable had deadly force not had to be used. See my post above.

If the anger and protests from BLM start focusing on burning down peoples businesses off the back of some unhinged lunatic having to be stopped by using deadly force - not because he was black - but because he posed a real threat to the police and the public - then they’ll lose a lot of support and a lot of the good work done over the last few weeks will have been nowhere near as effective as it should have been.

[JimBHibees]

As Beefster said, the idea that the police are going to stand in a drive thru of an open restaurant taking shots at a guys legs - shots that there’s a good chance they’re going to miss, while he runs around with a police officers weapon that he’s stolen off them after resisting arrest for drink driving is absolute fantasy.

What happens when the guy decides to use the taser on someone at the restaurant? Say a child for instance. The police would then be slaughtered for not stopping him when they have the means to do so.

The guy is illegally possessing a weapon in a public place whilst also having shown himself to be raj enough to drink drive, resist arrest, break free, steal the police officers weapon and attempt to go on the run. And the police are suppose to take shots at his leg that they’re unlikely to actually hit him with and just pray to god he doesn’t something else insanely stupid with the weapon he’s illegally running around with?

Would like to think their training had a few steps in it rather than just taking the guy out. Not to say in a real life situation an easy call but would still like to think other options could have been used.

[lapsedhibee]

Without getting into the rights and wrongs of the latest murder, it’s a movie fantasy that most police/people can aim and hit a limb in anything other than a controlled environment (or that it’ll stop the person shot).
I suppose I'm arguing that the polis should be able to do that, be better trained maybe. A drunk American moves more slowly than a clay pigeon, shirley?

[calumhibee1]

Would like to think their training had a few steps in it rather than just taking the guy out. Not to say in a real life situation an easy call but would still like to think other options could have been used.

I’m sure their training probably would have a few steps. I’m not quite sure what other steps could reasonably have been taken that would have had a high percentage chance of protecting the police officers and the public though. Especially after he’s started aiming the taser at people.

[bigwheel]

I have. Imo their actions were justified - although of course it would have been preferable had deadly force not had to be used. See my post above.

If the anger and protests from BLM start focusing on burning down peoples businesses off the back of some unhinged lunatic having to be stopped by using deadly force - not because he was black - but because he posed a real threat to the police and the public - then they’ll lose a lot of support and a lot of the good work done over the last few weeks will have been nowhere near as effective as it should have been.

We fundamentally disagree. He had no lethal weapon. Should still be alive today. I don’t imagine you’d take the same stance if it was one of your own who what taken a wrong turn in life and was now dead.

The protests are largely peaceful, heartfelt and passionate. Focussing on the extreme events around the protests, rather than the heart of them serve those who are anti BLM cause. If you accept a criminal resisting arrest, with no lethal weapon, can be executed in the street then you don’t support the BLM cause.


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[calumhibee1]

I suppose I'm arguing that the polis should be able to do that, be better trained maybe. A drunk American moves more slowly than a clay pigeon, shirley?

I’ve not saw the video - I’ve no intention of watching a guy get killed. But unless the police are armed with something suitable to longer range shooting, how close does someone need to be for a pistol (Apologies, firearms really aren’t my thing, I’m sure someone can tell me the exact type of weapon it would be) to have a good chance of hitting them? I’d have thought once their more than 10 yards or so away the chances of shooting them in the legs would be very very slim.

[bigwheel]

I’ve not saw the video - I’ve no intention of watching a guy get killed. But unless the police are armed with something suitable to longer range shooting, how close does someone need to be for a pistol (Apologies, firearms really aren’t my thing, I’m sure someone can tell me the exact type of weapon it would be) to have a good chance of hitting them? I’d have thought once their more than 10 yards or so away the chances of shooting them in the legs would be very very slim.

But Callum, Stealing a police taser is not a threat to life, it may harm people, but it doesn’t kill them. that’s why police have them as well as guns. They serve a different purpose.

Why not call for back up? Or at worse, come off second best and get the guy another day rather than shoot to kill.

It is hard to conclude anything other than lives, especially black lives , are now expendable to many police in the US.


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[Hibrandenburg]

I'm on the fence on this one. What if the guy had tasered the officer and then taken his gun? If the present situation wasn't on a knife edge, this story probably wouldn't have made the news. I also tend to think a white perpetrator would have met a similar fate. Killing people should always be a last resort but with weapons already in the game and inadequate police training in the US, things like this will continue to happen. I just don't think this particular incident can be labelled black victimisation.

[calumhibee1]

We fundamentally disagree. He had no lethal weapon. Should still be alive today. I don’t imagine you’d take the same stance if it was one of your own who what taken a wrong turn in life and was now dead.

The protests are largely peaceful, heartfelt and passionate. Focussing on the extreme events around the protests, rather than the heart of them serve those who are anti BLM cause. If you accept a criminal resisting arrest, with no lethal weapon, can be executed in the street then you don’t support the BLM cause.


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The one of your own stuff is utter nonsense. A lot of people wouldn’t agree with “one of their own” being killed in any circumstances - they could be running around shooting up a school and I’d imagine a lot of people would claim they didn’t need to have deadly force used on their son, brother, daughter etc. It doesn’t make them right though.

I’ve never once said the protests aren’t largely peaceful. They have been. The protests on the back of George Floyd were also justified - that was a man who should never have died and the BLM protests have done a lot of good work.

Yet again though, this has nothing to do with BLM. The guy is running around with a taser - a weapon that has killed people and can do serious damage to people - which he’s stolen off a police officer after resisting arrest and then started aiming it at them. All of this in a public place where he could have used it on anybody - elderly people, kids - his actions when aiming it at the police show he wasn’t afraid to use it, or at least give off the idea he wasn’t. He wasn’t shot for being black. He was shot because of his actions. If we’re going to claim that every black man killed by the police was done purely because they were black then will we start claiming that white people who have been shot and killed by the police while shooting up a school were killed for being white? Of course not, because that would be utterly ridiculous.

If you don’t agree they should have used deadly force, how should they have stopped him? The idea of shooting at a small target like a guys legs in a public place while he’s running around pointing a weapon at people is simply not going to happen. How many attempts would that take? How many bullets being discharged and missing the target potentially putting others at risk? What if a stray bullet hits a child! What do you suggest the police should have done?

As I’ve said previously, If riots off the back of this incident get attributed to the BLM movement then it’ll do the movement a lot more harm than good - it doesn’t help the cause, it doesn’t give justification to the cause. Burning down restaurants in his name will - rightly or wrongly - dilute the effect of incidents like George Floyd etc

[Pretty Boy]

I'm on the fence on this one. What if the guy had tasered the officer and then taken his gun? If the present situation wasn't on a knife edge, this story probably wouldn't have made the news. I also tend to think a white perpetrator would have met a similar fate. Killing people should always be a last resort but with weapons already in the game and inadequate police training in the US, things like this will continue to happen. I just don't think this particular incident can be labelled black victimisation.

Broadly speaking this is where I am on this one.

A taser in itself may be non lethal but it is disabling and that opens a whole new set of possibilities. Panic and inadequate training for such a situation rather than racism (or maybe rather than solely racism?) seems the most likely explanation here.

[bigwheel]

The one of your own stuff is utter nonsense. A lot of people wouldn’t agree with “one of their own” being killed in any circumstances - they could be running around shooting up a school and I’d imagine a lot of people would claim they didn’t need to have deadly force used on their son, brother, daughter etc. It doesn’t make them right though.

I’ve never once said the protests aren’t largely peaceful. They have been. The protests on the back of George Floyd were also justified - that was a man who should never have died and the BLM protests have done a lot of good work.

Yet again though, this has nothing to do with BLM. The guy is running around with a taser - a weapon that has killed people and can do serious damage to people - which he’s stolen off a police officer after resisting arrest and then started aiming it at them. All of this in a public place where he could have used it on anybody - elderly people, kids - his actions when aiming it at the police show he wasn’t afraid to use it, or at least give off the idea he wasn’t. He wasn’t shot for being black. He was shot because of his actions. If we’re going to claim that every black man killed by the police was done purely because they were black then will we start claiming that white people who have been shot and killed by the police while shooting up a school were killed for being white? Of course not, because that would be utterly ridiculous.

If you don’t agree they should have used deadly force, how should they have stopped him? The idea of shooting at a small target like a guys legs in a public place while he’s running around pointing a weapon at people is simply not going to happen. How many attempts would that take? How many bullets being discharged and missing the target potentially putting others at risk? What do you suggest the police should have done?

As I’ve said previously, If riots off the back of this incident get attributed to the BLM movement then it’ll do them a lot more harm than good - it doesn’t help the cause, it doesn’t give justification to the cause. Burning down restaurants in his name will - rightly or wrongly - dilute the effect of incidents like George Floyd etc

It’s not utter nonsense..although as it doesn’t suit your argument I can can see why you dismiss it . My question brings a less distant view to the events . You are coming over completely dispassionate about the killing of the guy because he was resisting arrest . That’s why I hypothetically pose the question.

It was a “non lethal force” taser. That has been publicly stated. They knew that - it was theirs. it’s not disputed . Yet your opinion is that if someone threatens to uses a taser it is an acceptable response to kill them. I don’t agree with that .

I’ve explained what they could have done - it’s really simple - not shot and killed the guy . Even if it meant he escaped capture . Being patient and calling for back up would have resolved it too . It seems that your view is : killing a man is fine if you can’t capture a man any other way. It’s pretty depressing to realise people have that opinion

[calumhibee1]

It’s not utter nonsense..although as it doesn’t suit your argument I can can see why you dismiss it . My question brings a less distant view to the events . You are coming over completely dispassionate about the killing of the guy because he was resisting arrest . That’s why I hypothetically pose the question.

It was a “non lethal force” taser. That has been publicly stated. They knew that - it was theirs. it’s not disputed . Yet your opinion is that if someone threatens to uses a taser it is an acceptable response to kill them. I don’t agree with that .

I’ve explained what they could have done - it’s really simple - not shot and killed the guy . Even if it meant he escaped capture . Being patient and calling for back up would have resolved it too . It seems that your view is : killing a man is fine if you can’t capture a man any other way. It’s pretty depressing to realise people have that opinion

It is nonsense. Asking how I would feel in a situation where you’d most likely be thinking totally illogically and using an illogical answer to back up your point is nonsense.

Ok, the taser is non lethal. Is it non lethal to kids? Elderly? Even if it is, it can still cause serious damage. What about when he uses the taser on the officer and takes their gun? He’s already shown himself to be more than happy to steal a police officers weapon already. Then what? Just wait for backup? Backup might not even be on the way seeing as he was already pointing the taser at them - I’m sure he wouldn’t have been desperate to let them call that in whilst pointing a taser at them.

My opinion is that it was an acceptable use of force when he’s clearly a danger to the public. Not because you can’t catch him like it’s a game of tig.

[Keith_M]

I don't have any more recent figures but the number of Police Officers in the US killed while on active duty in 2017 was 106. Fifty one of those were 'accidental deaths' and fifty five were killed by firearms. (from Forbes (https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/05/08/the-number-of-u-s-police-officers-killed-in-the-line-of-duty-increased-last-year-infographic/#71b210431189))

By way of comparison, the equivalent number in the UK for 2017 was one accidental death and one murder.

I think the answer of most US police departments now is to basically take no chances; shoot first and ask questions later.

Breaking down the number of murders committed in the US, there's also a vastly disproportionate number committed by black and hispanic people (I realise there are reasons for that, and poverty will play a large part in it).

So, while I wouldn't discount racial hatred by some police officers as a motivation for killing suspects, I wonder if there's now also a subconscious fear of black and hispanic people as potentially being more dangerous, which then affects the manner in which they choose to respond.


Basically, I wouldn't fancy being either a policeman in the US or someone being hunted down by a policeman (even more so if I was black or hispanic).



p.s. I really shouldn't have to write this but..... I am in no way trying to justify racial prejudice or saying that the disproportionate killing of ethnic minorities is somehow acceptable. I'm merely pointing out that this is quite a complicated subject, never as simple as it is often portrayed.

[-Jonesy-]

Let’s see what would happen if you were white...

https://twitter.com/wowbigbadwade/status/1271872526537424896?s=21

Wow, looks like you can even take a police baton and strike the officer a couple times and then they’ll even let you make off in their car all without even drawing a weapon.

[calumhibee1]

Let’s see what would happen if you were white...

https://twitter.com/wowbigbadwade/status/1271872526537424896?s=21

Wow, looks like you can even take a police baton and strike the officer a couple times and then they’ll even let you make off in their car all without even drawing a weapon.

That’ll be that then. He was shot for being black. Case closed.

:rolleyes:

You do realise that there’ll be black people who have stolen an officers weapon and not been killed? Likewise there’ll be white people who have and have been killed.

Using one isolated incident proves absolutely nothing.

[-Jonesy-]

That’ll be that then. He was shot for being black. Case closed.

:rolleyes:

You do realise that there’ll be black people who have stolen an officers weapon and not been killed? Likewise there’ll be white people who have and have been killed.

Using one isolated incident proves absolutely nothing.

https://twitter.com/everydayregan/status/1271935527399424005?s=21

Can even go swinging an axe at police and they’ll let you live if they like the colour of your skin

[-Jonesy-]

That’ll be that then. He was shot for being black. Case closed.

:rolleyes:

You do realise that there’ll be black people who have stolen an officers weapon and not been killed? Likewise there’ll be white people who have and have been killed.

Using one isolated incident proves absolutely nothing.

But we’re not talking about isolated incidents are we, you’re using that to support your narrative where the truth actually is, in America you are 3.69 times more likely to be shot dead by police if you are black.

[calumhibee1]

https://twitter.com/everydayregan/status/1271935527399424005?s=21

Can even go swinging an axe at police and they’ll let you live if they like the colour of your skin

Yup, that’s it. All police are racist. Nail on the head.

[Andy74]

But we’re not talking about isolated incidents are we, you’re using that to support your narrative where the truth actually is, in America you are 3.69 times more likely to be shot dead by police if you are black.

And has been noted several times, the police don’t just cruise the streets looking for people to kill. That number needs to be in the context of the people who are out there committing crime.

[calumhibee1]

But we’re not talking about isolated incidents are we, you’re using that to support your narrative where the truth actually is, in America you are 3.69 times more likely to be shot dead by police if you are black.

That’s exactly what youre doing. You’re suggesting from one incident that if you’re white the police WILL NOT use deadly force on you. Which of course is rubbish.

Nobody is debating that you’re more likely to be shot dead by police if you’re black.

[-Jonesy-]

That’s exactly what youre doing. You’re suggesting from one incident that if you’re white the police WILL NOT use deadly force on you. Which of course is rubbish.

Nobody is debating that you’re more likely to be shot dead by police if you’re black.

Guy above you is

[bigwheel]

It is nonsense. Asking how I would feel in a situation where you’d most likely be thinking totally illogically and using an illogical answer to back up your point is nonsense.

Ok, the taser is non lethal. Is it non lethal to kids? Elderly? Even if it is, it can still cause serious damage. What about when he uses the taser on the officer and takes their gun? He’s already shown himself to be more than happy to steal a police officers weapon already. Then what? Just wait for backup? Backup might not even be on the way seeing as he was already pointing the taser at them - I’m sure he wouldn’t have been desperate to let them call that in whilst pointing a taser at them.

My opinion is that it was an acceptable use of force when he’s clearly a danger to the public. Not because you can’t catch him like it’s a game of tig. But you already know that.

“Game of tig”...sigh*

It is clear where you are on it. Your focus in recent posts has been on the negative side of the protests (riots) and justifying why the police acted appropriately in killing the guy.

My views are just because the guy was committing a crime, even creating a risky situation, doesn’t deserve him to be murdered. It’s another example of a system out of control. I can support the anger.

We have different values and beliefs on this.

[-Jonesy-]

https://twitter.com/qasimrashid/status/1271990915985440768?s=21

https://twitter.com/shijehi24/status/1271995533247148032?s=21

https://twitter.com/shijehi24/status/1271996117878595584?s=21

Just one isolated incident

[hibsbollah]

Using one isolated incident proves absolutely nothing.


Exactly. You’ve got it. Look at the wider pattern of police murders in custody and you will see a pattern. A pattern that goes right past Mississippi Burning to Jim Crow, when in many states police were doing the KKKs job for them because they WERE the KKK, and about 400 years back. The historical pattern of structural racism is totally obvious.

[neil7908]

It is nonsense. Asking how I would feel in a situation where you’d most likely be thinking totally illogically and using an illogical answer to back up your point is nonsense.

Ok, the taser is non lethal. Is it non lethal to kids? Elderly? Even if it is, it can still cause serious damage. What about when he uses the taser on the officer and takes their gun? He’s already shown himself to be more than happy to steal a police officers weapon already. Then what? Just wait for backup? Backup might not even be on the way seeing as he was already pointing the taser at them - I’m sure he wouldn’t have been desperate to let them call that in whilst pointing a taser at them.

My opinion is that it was an acceptable use of force when he’s clearly a danger to the public. Not because you can’t catch him like it’s a game of tig.

Police have tasers in the UK, would you support arming our police then given the above could happen over here? I.e. Someone could take a cops taser and threaten them and others. How do you think UK cops would handle this given they must face this threat without the option of firearms?

Every other country in the world has people who are dangerous to themselves and others but police manage to generally handle those situations in other ways - it's part of their training.

[hibsbollah]

Guy above you is

It’s Andy. Get used to it.

[calumhibee1]

“Game of tig”...sigh*

It is clear where you are on it. Your focus in recent posts has been on the negative side of the protests (riots) and justifying why the police acted appropriately in killing the guy.

My views are just because the guy was committing a crime, even creating a risky situation, doesn’t deserve him to be murdered. It’s another example of a system out of control. I can support the anger.

We have different values and beliefs on this.

You’re the one who equated the use of force being down to purely not being able to catch him. I had made it quite clear I reckoned it was an acceptable use of force because he was clearly a danger to the public and the police officers in my previous posts, not purely because they couldn’t capture him. I wouldn’t condone it if someone was running away unarmed after stealing a bottle of vodka and was too fast for the police or something as equally unthreatening.

My focus is on the negative side of the protests based on this specific instance - because I believe the police have acted appropriately based on the threat he posed and his previous actions in the incident - and I don’t believe any of it was due to him being black.

I can absolutely support the anger and peaceful protests for incidents like George Floyd, Trayvon Martin etc. And the protests regarding these incidents will (hopefully) do a lot of good. Like I’ve said though, I reckon latching onto an incident like this dilutes the cause when you’re no longer focusing on a racial injustice and instead trying to equate some loony who poses a danger to the public as being unfairly targeted for his skin colour when he wasn’t.

Anyway, we both clearly disagree so we’ll leave it at that.

[G B Young]

I'm on the fence on this one. What if the guy had tasered the officer and then taken his gun? If the present situation wasn't on a knife edge, this story probably wouldn't have made the news. I also tend to think a white perpetrator would have met a similar fate. Killing people should always be a last resort but with weapons already in the game and inadequate police training in the US, things like this will continue to happen. I just don't think this particular incident can be labelled black victimisation.

I've only read the BBC report on this but based on that I tend to agree with you, though I'm unclear why one of the officers involved would be instantly dismissed without (apparently) any sort of review taking place.

Also, why did the Wendy's get burned down? What did that have to do with any of this?

[calumhibee1]

I've only read the BBC report on this but based on that I tend to agree with you, though I'm unclear why one of the officers involved would be instantly dismissed without (apparently) any sort of review taking place.

Also, why did the Wendy's get burned down? What did that have to do with any of this?

I think that’s the drive thru where the incident took place. Potentially Wendy’s staff called the police? Other than that I’ve no idea.

[Keith_M]

Exactly. You’ve got it. Look at the wider pattern of police murders in custody and you will see a pattern. A pattern that goes right past Mississippi Burning to Jim Crow, when in many states police were doing the KKKs job for them because they WERE the KKK, and about 400 years back. The historical pattern of structural racism is totally obvious.


While that is all true, it doesn't necessarily mean that all killings of black suspects are from racist motives or that white people are allowed to get away with everything.

That's the opposite, and extreme, end of the spectrum from claiming there is never a racial motive, but it seems to be some people's point of view (at least one on here, going by today's comments).

This is never a straightforward subject and making claims at extreme sides of the argument aren't helpful (just to clarify, I'm not saying that you were)

[calumhibee1]

While that is all true, it doesn't necessarily mean that all killings of black suspects are from racist motives or that white people are allowed to get away with everything.

That's the opposite, and extreme, end of the spectrum from claiming there is never a racial motive, but it seems to be some people's point of view (at least one on here, going by today's comments).

This is never a straightforward subject and making claims at extreme sides of the argument aren't helpful (just to clarify, I'm not saying that you were)

:agree:

[Keith_M]

...

Also, why did the Wendy's get burned down? What did that have to do with any of this?


Presumably because it was an easy, and symbolic, target for the anger of those that did it.


Thankfully nobody was hurt and the company won't go bust because if it (and I'm not excusing anyone here either).

[G B Young]

I think that’s the drive thru where the incident took place. Potentially Wendy’s staff called the police? Other than that I’ve no idea.

They got their restaurant burned down because they called for police assistance to get their drive thru lane freed up? Mind-boggling if that was the case.

[hibsbollah]

While that is all true, it doesn't necessarily mean that all killings of black suspects are from racist motives or that white people are allowed to get away with everything.

That's the opposite, and extreme, end of the spectrum from claiming there is never a racial motive, but it seems to be some people's point of view (at least one on here, going by today's comments).

This is never a straightforward subject and making claims at extreme sides of the argument aren't helpful (just to clarify, I'm not saying that you were)

I disagree, I think you’re practicing false objectivity there. If theres a pattern of behaviour, like demonstrative racial motive (shouting out ****** before the Ahmaud murder, for example), or counting up the repeated inexplicable exoneratations of police over the years, which says the police DO almost get away with it, I think we can draw some obvious conclusions without that being seen as extreme.

[G B Young]

Presumably because it was an easy, and symbolic, target for the anger of those that did it.


Thankfully nobody was hurt and the company won't go bust because if it (and I'm not excusing anyone here either).

Symbolic of what? White America?

As I said, I've only read the BBC report on this, which is pretty sketchy on details, but it just strikes me that burning down a restaurant as an outlet for their anger does the protesters no favours.

[hibsbollah]

Symbolic of what? White America?

As I said, I've only read the BBC report on this, which is pretty sketchy on details, but it just strikes me that burning down a restaurant as an outlet for their anger does the protesters no favours.

Id imagine they’re at the point that they couldn’t give a **** about the approval of white people.

[calumhibee1]

They got their restaurant burned down because they called for police assistance to get their drive thru lane freed up? Mind-boggling if that was the case.

I’m not sure if that’s why - I don’t think we’ll ever get a well thought out reason for it.

[bigwheel]

Id imagine they’re at the point that they couldn’t give a **** about the approval of white people.

That’s so true ...the view of “these actions will not secure my support “ generally come from people who don’t see this as a deep rooted problem ...it’s part of the system they are rebelling against

[calumhibee1]

That’s so true ...the view of “these actions will not secure my support “ generally come from people who don’t see this as a deep to rooted problem ...it’s part of the system they are rebelling against

Ah, the good old ‘if you don’t agree with me and every aspect of the protests then you’re racist’ style post:

I wondered how long it would take.

[bigwheel]

Ah, the good old ‘if you don’t agree with me and every aspect of the protests then you’re racist’ style post:

I wondered how long it would take.

If that’s how you want to take that post, then it says a whole lot about you .

[calumhibee1]

If that’s how you want to take that post, then it says a whole lot about you .

That’s exactly what you meant. Pretending to leave it ‘
down to interpretation when you’re clearly calling posters racist is embarrassing. If you’re going to make such a horrendous claim about posters then at least be big enough to own it rather than hiding behind a thinly veiled suggestion.

[The Modfather]

Id imagine they’re at the point that they couldn’t give a **** about the approval of white people.

Will white people be the only race in condemnation of their action? What about the staff who worked there?

****bag behaviour is ****bag behaviour IMO regardless of what cause a group is fighting for. If they had targeted a government building or some such I might not have agreed with it but could have seen the logic in it. I doubt Wendy’s was specifically targeted, it’s more likely the ned element of the movement acting like neds.

[Sir David Gray]

I've only read the BBC report on this but based on that I tend to agree with you, though I'm unclear why one of the officers involved would be instantly dismissed without (apparently) any sort of review taking place.

Also, why did the Wendy's get burned down? What did that have to do with any of this?

Thankfully no-one appears to have been inside the restaurant. I wonder if the people who did this checked that it was empty before setting it on fire.

[JimBHibees]

I’m sure their training probably would have a few steps. I’m not quite sure what other steps could reasonably have been taken that would have had a high percentage chance of protecting the police officers and the public though. Especially after he’s started aiming the taser at people.

Haven't seen any video. Maybe using one of their own tazers on the guy if there were other officers if that was an option. Trying to shoot him in the leg if running away rather than killing him.

[G B Young]

Haven't seen any video. Maybe using one of their own tazers on the guy if there were other officers if that was an option. Trying to shoot him in the leg if running away rather than killing him.

Do we know they didn't do that? Has it been confirmed they opened fire with intent to kill? Was he shot dead or did he later die of his injuries? How easy is it to shoot a moving target with the intention of only wounding? What are police trained to do in such situations? None of this has so far been made clear from what I've read.

[matty_f]

As Beefster said, the idea that the police are going to stand in a drive thru of an open restaurant taking shots at a guys legs - shots that there’s a good chance they’re going to miss, while he runs around with a police officers weapon that he’s stolen off them after resisting arrest for drink driving is absolute fantasy.

What happens when the guy decides to use the taser on someone at the restaurant? Say a child for instance. The police would then be slaughtered for not stopping him when they have the means to do so.

The guy is illegally possessing a weapon in a public place whilst also having shown himself to be raj enough to drink drive, resist arrest, break free, steal the police officers weapon, attempt to use it on them and attempt to go on the run. And the police are suppose to take shots at his leg that they’re unlikely to actually hit him with and just pray to god he doesn’t something else insanely stupid with the weapon he’s illegally running around with?

Funnily enough, the British police, without the option of guns in most cases, manage to do it without executing people (save for very rare and extreme exceptions).

[G B Young]

Will white people be the only race in condemnation of their action? What about the staff who worked there?

****bag behaviour is ****bag behaviour IMO regardless of what cause a group is fighting for. If they had targeted a government building or some such I might not have agreed with it but could have seen the logic in it. I doubt Wendy’s was specifically targeted, it’s more likely the ned element of the movement acting like neds.

Yes that was kind of my point. I'd imagine many of the staff and customers are black so burning it down as an act of symbolism would seem misguided. More like just random destruction I'd guess.

[hibsbollah]

Will white people be the only race in condemnation of their action? What about the staff who worked there?

****bag behaviour is ****bag behaviour IMO regardless of what cause a group is fighting for. If they had targeted a government building or some such I might not have agreed with it but could have seen the logic in it. I doubt Wendy’s was specifically targeted, it’s more likely the ned element of the movement acting like neds.

I was responding with the assumption that Keith M is a white guy, and getting condemned by you, me, Keith, or the other white guys on this thread is not top of the rioters list of concerns, because they feel brutalised. I’d imagine they have their own thoughts about the Wendy’s staff in the building which none of us know.

[Andy74]

It’s Andy. Get used to it.

Yep, where some context is always helpful in debate rather than extremes of one side or the other.

Do you accept that the statistics are only relevant when you consider being exposed to interactions with the police and that will differ depending on your background and geography?

Take a simple example. I grew up and spent my teen years in Trinity in Edinburgh. Until I started travelling on the IEC bus 😄 my chances of being in a situation where I could come into physical contact with the police were quite limited.

If I’d grown up in inner city London that would have been a fair bit higher. Then you look at the ethic background of this living in inner city London.

This gets more extreme in the US. Other that seeing on TV have you really been into any of the tough inner city areas there? I’ve been in the ‘wrong’ parts of town in New Orleans, Atlanta, Memphis, Birmingham. This is where your differences in stats connect from.

Of course there will be racist cops out there but it isn’t the real problem.

[The Modfather]

I was responding with the assumption that Keith M is a white guy, and getting condemned by you, me, Keith, or the other white guys on this thread is not top of the rioters list of concerns, because they feel brutalised. I’d imagine they have their own thoughts about the Wendy’s staff in the building which none of us know.

Speaking as a gay, black, Muslim, feminist woman who identifies as non binary* I condemn the neds who burnt down Wendy’s. 😀





*some, or likely all, of which may not be true

[hibsbollah]

Yep, where some context is always helpful in debate rather than extremes of one side or the other.

Do you accept that the statistics are only relevant when you consider being exposed to interactions with the police and that will differ depending on your background and geography?

Take a simple example. I grew up and spent my teen years in Trinity in Edinburgh. Until I started travelling on the IEC bus 😄 my chances of being in a situation where I could come into physical contact with the police were quite limited.

If I’d grown up in inner city London that would have been a fair bit higher. Then you look at the ethic background of this living in inner city London.

This gets more extreme in the US. Other that seeing on TV have you really been into any of the tough inner city areas there? I’ve been in the ‘wrong’ parts of town in New Orleans, Atlanta, Memphis, Birmingham. This is where your differences in stats connect from.

Of course there will be racist cops out there but it isn’t the real problem.

I used to live and work all across the US. I have family in the US. I also lived in a 95% black neighbourhood of D.C. for a month where I’d hear gunshots nearby walking home every night. The difference between you and I is that I acknowledge that my experiences in the states do not give me ONE iota of understanding of living under economic apartheid that the black community is living in. Like I said before, the fact you used to live in Georgia, possibly the most racist state in the Union (dripping with injustice, I think MLK describe it as), gives you no more knowledge of the issues at hand than me or almost any other white guy.

And your reliance on criminology statistics is just proving the point I made earlier, that the black community is being criminalised. When you criminalise whole communities by historical structural inequalities, there shouldn’t be a surprise when the chickens come home to roost.

[calumhibee1]

Funnily enough, the British police, without the option of guns in most cases, manage to do it without executing people (save for very rare and extreme exceptions).

The British police wouldn’t be faced up against someone who has already stole a weapon off them (the taser) and has attempted or at least threatened to use it on them giving them the opportunity to take a lethal weapon like a firearm off of them (he had shown himself to be willing to take a weapon from a police officer after all).

They’re not really comparable scenarios. American police have a hell of a lot more to worry about in their dealings with people than the UK police.

[Future17]

The British police wouldn’t be faced up against someone who has already stole a weapon off them (the taser) and has attempted or at least threatened to use it on them giving them the opportunity to take a lethal weapon like a firearm off of them (he had shown himself to be willing to take a weapon from a police officer after all).

They’re not really comparable scenarios. American police have a hell of a lot more to worry about in their dealings with people than the UK police.

So, because the police in this instance were carrying lethal weapons and weren't confident of being able to keep those weapons out of the hands of the person they were trying to apprehend, they were entitled to shoot him? :confused:

[660]

I can’t think of any other way to deal with someone with a taser other than to shoot them dead tbh. Seems totally reasonable

[DH1875]

Funnily enough, the British police, without the option of guns in most cases, manage to do it without executing people (save for very rare and extreme exceptions).

You grow up here and you know how the police will react. Black or white, growing up in the US, you know that there's every chance you'll be shot at by the police if you done what this guys done. I used to live in Spain and have spent a lot of time there, especially as a kid. I know NOT to duck with the Spanish police as I know what will happen if I do.

[hibsbollah]

You grow up here and you know how the police will react. Black or white, growing up in the US, you know that there's every chance you'll be shot at by the police if you done what this guys done. I used to live in Spain and have spent a lot of time there, especially as a kid. I know NOT to duck with the Spanish police as I know what will happen if I do.

But you know black people would disagree with you that the treatment is the same, black or white. In fact you’d get laughed in the face in many cases. How do you explain that? Ignorance or mass hysteria on their part? There must be a reason. My explanation is your experiences are different from other people.

[calumhibee1]

So, because the police in this instance were carrying lethal weapons and weren't confident of being able to keep those weapons out of the hands of the person they were trying to apprehend, they were entitled to shoot him? :confused:

Yes.

[calumhibee1]

But you know black people would disagree with you that the treatment is the same, black or white. In fact you’d get laughed in the face in many cases. How do you explain that? Ignorance or mass hysteria on their part? There must be a reason. My explanation is your experiences are different from other people.

But in a situation like this one a White person could quite well find themselves shot as well. Unless any shooting/arrest/battering of a black person can only be because of racism which is what folk seem to be arguing on this thread.

[bigwheel]

But in a situation like this one a White person could quite well find themselves shot as well. Unless any shooting/arrest/battering of a black person can only be because of racism which is what folk seem to be arguing on this thread.

Without opening up areas we disagree on again ..

Let’s outline it this way . The risks of current policing approaches affect people of all backgrounds. That is never in question . Never has been as far as I see.

What’s also not in question is that these issues disproportionately affect black and Latino people. There are six times the amount of white people, similar rates of unarmed killings. Read any study on this - it’s without challenge or question .

The reason we don’t see the same level of unrest about white killings has to be understood because of different life experiences. Studies as recently as 2019 showed this . When an unarmed white man is killed by police (there are many shocking examples) white people don’t watch it and generally think “that could have been me”. Non criminal white people rarely come into contact with police. The experience of black and Latino citizens is defined by their experiences, and that of family and friends . This is not about the lives they lead, you could be a pilot, an executive, sportsman , accountant whatever yet Almost all (100 percent) of them have had regular interactions with police, often unwarranted and often difficult scary encounters . When they see these killings at the hands of police, they have a genuine sense of “that could be me”. Regardless of how honest their lives are, the risk of police brutality is real for them . It drives a materially different everyday life experience and therefore a different emotional reaction from the black community .

[Speedy]

But in a situation like this one a White person could quite well find themselves shot as well. Unless any shooting/arrest/battering of a black person can only be because of racism which is what folk seem to be arguing on this thread.

I suspect white people will get the benefit of the doubt more than black people.

Regardless of that, there is a strange attitude in the US that says it is more acceptable to kill people (compared with the UK for example).

[McD]

I suspect white people will get the benefit of the doubt more than black people.

Regardless of that, there is a strange attitude in the US that says it is more acceptable to kill people (compared with the UK for example).


ive made this point before, but in Britain it’s usually quite shocking news when there’s a shooting, whether that involves the police or not. Usually the closest we get to that (short of an actual firearms incident) is “armed police were in attendance”.

it seems to be a daily occurrence in most cities in the US, they just seem to shrug and accept it. I was a teenager when Dunblane happened, but I seem to remember there being a clamp down on firearm ownership and control. Over there, it’s all about ‘my right to bear arms’

[Hibrandenburg]

I've not seen this mentioned on here, but part of the problem the US police have will be their historical roots. I was having a few beers with my best mate (history teacher) and he mentioned that many US police forces started life as Slave Patrols or Night Watches to protect landowners and help them recover runaway slaves or ensure indigenous Americans stayed on their reservations. I was unaware of this but having now read up a bit it would be incredible to think that this doesn't play a role in the problem.

[matty_f]

Without opening up areas we disagree on again ..

Let’s outline it this way . The risks of current policing approaches affect people of all backgrounds. That is never in question . Never has been as far as I see.

What’s also not in question is that these issues disproportionately affect black and Latino people. There are six times the amount of white people, similar rates of unarmed killings. Read any study on this - it’s without challenge or question .

The reason we don’t see the same level of unrest about white killings has to be understood because of different life experiences. Studies as recently as 2019 showed this . When an unarmed white man is killed by police (there are many shocking examples) white people don’t watch it and generally think “that could have been me”. Non criminal white people rarely come into contact with police. The experience of black and Latino citizens is defined by their experiences, and that of family and friends . This is not about the lives they lead, you could be a pilot, an executive, sportsman , accountant whatever yet Almost all (100 percent) of them have had regular interactions with police, often unwarranted and often difficult scary encounters . When they see these killings at the hands of police, they have a genuine sense of “that could be me”. Regardless of how honest their lives are, the risk of police brutality is real for them . It drives a materially different everyday life experience and therefore a different emotional reaction from the black community .


That's a really good explanation.

[calumhibee1]

Without opening up areas we disagree on again ..

Let’s outline it this way . The risks of current policing approaches affect people of all backgrounds. That is never in question . Never has been as far as I see.

What’s also not in question is that these issues disproportionately affect black and Latino people. There are six times the amount of white people, similar rates of unarmed killings. Read any study on this - it’s without challenge or question .

The reason we don’t see the same level of unrest about white killings has to be understood because of different life experiences. Studies as recently as 2019 showed this . When an unarmed white man is killed by police (there are many shocking examples) white people don’t watch it and generally think “that could have been me”. Non criminal white people rarely come into contact with police. The experience of black and Latino citizens is defined by their experiences, and that of family and friends . This is not about the lives they lead, you could be a pilot, an executive, sportsman , accountant whatever yet Almost all (100 percent) of them have had regular interactions with police, often unwarranted and often difficult scary encounters . When they see these killings at the hands of police, they have a genuine sense of “that could be me”. Regardless of how honest their lives are, the risk of police brutality is real for them . It drives a materially different everyday life experience and therefore a different emotional reaction from the black community .

I’m absolutely not disagreeing with most, if not all of that.

My point from the beginning has been that this particular incident imo wasn’t racially aggravated and I’d struggle to see how you can argue it was. Of course you seem to disagree, or at least disagree that deadly force was acceptable.

As such, BLM latching onto it and using it as a reason to burn down peoples businesses in the name of BLM will do it more harm than good. If it gets to the point that every single killing of a black person is then defended by BLM protesters, even if it’s not racially aggravated, then it will dilute the message they’re trying to get across.

A bit like white people claiming they’re unfairly treated by the police and then defending a school shooter to the hilt purely because they’re white and they want to make a point of how we’re all unfairly treated.

[hibsbollah]

I've not seen this mentioned on here, but part of the problem the US police have will be their historical roots. I was having a few beers with my best mate (history teacher) and he mentioned that many US police forces started life as Slave Patrols or Night Watches to protect landowners and help them recover runaway slaves or ensure indigenous Americans stayed on their reservations. I was unaware of this but having now read up a bit it would be incredible to think that this doesn't play a role in the problem.

A very good point. This is part of the of historical context I was talking about earlier. The natural route for slave overseers on the plantation was joining the new police force, who were made up by lots of Klan members. The economic prerogative was making sure that the newly freed slaves were criminalised and put back into servitude anyway in the form of the chain gang system, so lots of blacks were rounded up on trumped up charges or minor offences like vagrancy or disturbing the peace and out back to work in prison gangs. This is the period where blacks escaped North in huge numbers, when they realised that Freedom wasn’t real freedom at all. And enough happened in the 1930s the 1960s and the 1970s to suggest not much had changed and racism was at the heart of what they did, whether in Chicago New York or the Deep South. The 13th On Netflix at the moment is a brilliant expose on this.

We talk a lot in business (and sports)these days about the culture of an organisation. The state police have a lot of historical and cultural baggage.

[-Jonesy-]

A bit like white people claiming they’re unfairly treated by the police and then defending a school shooter to the hilt purely because they’re white and they want to make a point of how we’re all unfairly treated.

What world do you live in?

[calumhibee1]

What world do you live in?

Ok. I’ll indulge. Why is a black person, doing an indefensible thing such as drink driving, resisting arrest and then stealing a weapon off a police officer and attempting to use it on them any different to a white person doing an indefensible thing?

Let me guess. If you don’t agree that every single black person killed, regardless of what they’ve actually been doing to end up getting in that situation, is the victim of a racially prejudiced system then you’re a racist. There you go, I’ve saved you a reply.

I would ask you why you’ve edited out the rest of my post but I wouldn’t expect you to be able to partake in an adult conversation after your desperate attempts earlier in the thread to suggest that ALL white people can do what they want, to who they want, whenever they want without consequences.

[DH1875]

But you know black people would disagree with you that the treatment is the same, black or white. In fact you’d get laughed in the face in many cases. How do you explain that? Ignorance or mass hysteria on their part? There must be a reason. My explanation is your experiences are different from other people.

Fair enough. What I do know though that I live in Scotland, thousands of miles away from where this happened and even I know that in America if you did what this guy did, there's every chance the police will shoot you for it. I'm not surprised or shocked they done it and not sure how anyone can be. If the guy was white, would I have been shocked or surprised? Not one bit but then, it wouldn't have made the news here would it.

[blackpoolhibs]

Without opening up areas we disagree on again ..

Let’s outline it this way . The risks of current policing approaches affect people of all backgrounds. That is never in question . Never has been as far as I see.

What’s also not in question is that these issues disproportionately affect black and Latino people. There are six times the amount of white people, similar rates of unarmed killings. Read any study on this - it’s without challenge or question .

The reason we don’t see the same level of unrest about white killings has to be understood because of different life experiences. Studies as recently as 2019 showed this . When an unarmed white man is killed by police (there are many shocking examples) white people don’t watch it and generally think “that could have been me”. Non criminal white people rarely come into contact with police. The experience of black and Latino citizens is defined by their experiences, and that of family and friends . This is not about the lives they lead, you could be a pilot, an executive, sportsman , accountant whatever yet Almost all (100 percent) of them have had regular interactions with police, often unwarranted and often difficult scary encounters . When they see these killings at the hands of police, they have a genuine sense of “that could be me”. Regardless of how honest their lives are, the risk of police brutality is real for them . It drives a materially different everyday life experience and therefore a different emotional reaction from the black community .

This is the best post i have ever read on this subject. :top marks

[Hibrandenburg]

A very good point. This is part of the of historical context I was talking about earlier. The natural route for slave overseers on the plantation was joining the new police force, who were made up by lots of Klan members. The economic prerogative was making sure that the newly freed slaves were criminalised and put back into servitude anyway in the form of the chain gang system, so lots of blacks were rounded up on trumped up charges or minor offences like vagrancy or disturbing the peace and out back to work in prison gangs. This is the period where blacks escaped North in huge numbers, when they realised that Freedom wasn’t real freedom at all. And enough happened in the 1930s the 1960s and the 1970s to suggest not much had changed and racism was at the heart of what they did, whether in Chicago New York or the Deep South. The 13th On Netflix at the moment is a brilliant expose on this.

We talk a lot in business (and sports)these days about the culture of an organisation. The state police have a lot of historical and cultural baggage.

Good post, especially the last bit.

[Keith_M]

I disagree, I think you’re practicing false objectivity there. If theres a pattern of behaviour, like demonstrative racial motive (shouting out ****** before the Ahmaud murder, for example), or counting up the repeated inexplicable exoneratations of police over the years, which says the police DO almost get away with it, I think we can draw some obvious conclusions without that being seen as extreme.


I'm practicing false objectivity?

Were you born with the habit of insulting people that don't 100% agree with you or is it something you practice regularly?


I get the fact that you only ever want to see your point of view, but I honestly think you need to start at least considering that some things are often subtle and nuanced, and be at least willing to consider other people's thoughts on a matter, instead of immediately dismissing it based on your own 'prejudices'.

[ronaldo7]

A very good point. This is part of the of historical context I was talking about earlier. The natural route for slave overseers on the plantation was joining the new police force, who were made up by lots of Klan members. The economic prerogative was making sure that the newly freed slaves were criminalised and put back into servitude anyway in the form of the chain gang system, so lots of blacks were rounded up on trumped up charges or minor offences like vagrancy or disturbing the peace and out back to work in prison gangs. This is the period where blacks escaped North in huge numbers, when they realised that Freedom wasn’t real freedom at all. And enough happened in the 1930s the 1960s and the 1970s to suggest not much had changed and racism was at the heart of what they did, whether in Chicago New York or the Deep South. The 13th On Netflix at the moment is a brilliant expose on this.

We talk a lot in business (and sports)these days about the culture of an organisation. The state police have a lot of historical and cultural baggage.

Just finished The 13th on Netflix, its a wonderful insight into the efforts that the slavers went to, to get the labour they required from the "freed" blacks. It covers the points that Hibrandenburg was making.

[Keith_M]

I was responding with the assumption that Keith M is a white guy, and getting condemned by you, me, Keith, or the other white guys on this thread is not top of the rioters list of concerns, because they feel brutalised. I’d imagine they have their own thoughts about the Wendy’s staff in the building which none of us know.


Please supply the quote of where I either condemned or condoned the people burning it down.

[Keith_M]

I've not seen this mentioned on here, but part of the problem the US police have will be their historical roots. I was having a few beers with my best mate (history teacher) and he mentioned that many US police forces started life as Slave Patrols or Night Watches to protect landowners and help them recover runaway slaves or ensure indigenous Americans stayed on their reservations. I was unaware of this but having now read up a bit it would be incredible to think that this doesn't play a role in the problem.


I'd never heard of that either. That's incredible, when you think about it.

I can see why some states are now considering proposals to disband the police force and replace them with something new, from the ground up, designed for the benefit of all citizens.

While racism seems to be especially bad in the US, the idea that racism doesn't exist in other countries... as some people (not on here, I hasten to add)... have claimed is total nonsense as well.

When I lived in Munich I had three colleagues from Poland and one from Sudan. They used to argue about which of them was pulled over the most by the local Police for 'random checks'.

I remember going to an after work event with the four of them, in one of the Polish guy's car (with Polish number plates), with the Sudanese guy in the passenger seat, and three of us in the back. The general viewpoint was of amazement that (in the words of the Sudanese lad) 'four Poles and a Black Guy' weren't stopped once by the Police in a 30 minute journey.

[hibsbollah]

Please supply the quote of where I either condemned or condoned the people burning it down.

I think you’ve misunderstood me here. Im giving my opinion that IF you (or me) as white people condemned the rioters they surely wouldn’t give a **** based on the current situation.

It’s my opinion you’re using false objectivity in your post, but I’m not sure why you’re getting offended, I’m not accusing you of a capital offence! I enjoy your posts and you’ve made some decent points in the debate.

[Vault Boy]

This is the best post i have ever read on this subject. :top marks

I'd echo this. Excellent post, Bigwheel.

[-Jonesy-]

Ok. I’ll indulge. Why is a black person, doing an indefensible thing such as drink driving, resisting arrest and then stealing a weapon off a police officer and attempting to use it on them any different to a white person doing an indefensible thing?

Let me guess. If you don’t agree that every single black person killed, regardless of what they’ve actually been doing to end up getting in that situation, is the victim of a racially prejudiced system then you’re a racist. There you go, I’ve saved you a reply.

I would ask you why you’ve edited out the rest of my post but I wouldn’t expect you to be able to partake in an adult conversation after your desperate attempts earlier in the thread to suggest that ALL white people can do what they want, to who they want, whenever they want without consequences.

I edited out the rest of the post to highlight how utterly laughable that line of thought is.

You assume far too much of my thinking, I only posted some examples of white people getting a massive benefit of the doubt from police that Mr Brooks was not afforded. I didn’t go putting words in your mouth and throwing a tantrum so I won’t be partaking in an “adult” conversation with you.

You should go for a lie down or something

[Bristolhibby]

Ok. I’ll indulge. Why is a black person, doing an indefensible thing such as drink driving, resisting arrest and then stealing a weapon off a police officer and attempting to use it on them any different to a white person doing an indefensible thing?

Let me guess. If you don’t agree that every single black person killed, regardless of what they’ve actually been doing to end up getting in that situation, is the victim of a racially prejudiced system then you’re a racist. There you go, I’ve saved you a reply.

I would ask you why you’ve edited out the rest of my post but I wouldn’t expect you to be able to partake in an adult conversation after your desperate attempts earlier in the thread to suggest that ALL white people can do what they want, to who they want, whenever they want without consequences.

You do know he was shot in the back, while running away? The weapon he was pointing was a non lethal taser.

I’m not saying he shouldn’t be arrested. But there’s no way he should have had lethal force used against him.

J

[Peevemor]

You do know he was shot in the back, while running away? The weapon he was pointing was a non lethal taser.

I’m not saying he shouldn’t be arrested. But there’s no way he should have had lethal force used against him.

J

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but do we know what police policy is in such a situation? I'd imagine that the policeman was legally right to take the shot(s).

[Bristolhibby]

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread, but do we know what police policy is in such a situation? I'd imagine that the policeman was legally right to take the shot(s).

The copper has been sacked, so I’ll hazard a guess that it was totally contrary to their policy.

If he had a hand gun, then that would be a legitimate shot. But a non lethal taser does not mean a death sentence.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/13/us/atlanta-police-shooting-rayshard-brooks.html

J

[Future17]

So, because the police in this instance were carrying lethal weapons and weren't confident of being able to keep those weapons out of the hands of the person they were trying to apprehend, they were entitled to shoot him? :confused:


Yes.

If you really believe that, it means you believe the police are entitled to shoot anyone they consider capable may be capable of disarming them. I can't understand that point of view.

[The 90+2]

You do know he was shot in the back, while running away? The weapon he was pointing was a non lethal taser.

I’m not saying he shouldn’t be arrested. But there’s no way he should have had lethal force used against him.

J

Anyone in life in a confrontation with the police with a ****ing taser is most likely to be shot. Regardless of colour.

[The 90+2]

The copper has been sacked, so I’ll hazard a guess that it was totally contrary to their policy.

If he had a hand gun, then that would be a legitimate shot. But a non lethal taser does not mean a death sentence.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/13/us/atlanta-police-shooting-rayshard-brooks.html

J

Who’s to judge how scared the police officer was though? If some whack job was on the loose with a taser after recent events and the amount of harass the police are under especially I would be scared as ****. Just calmly arrest the guy? The taser is a for a reason and for me it’s a legitimate reason to protect your own and colleagues lives.

[calumhibee1]

I edited out the rest of the post to highlight how utterly laughable that line of thought is.

You assume far too much of my thinking, I only posted some examples of white people getting a massive benefit of the doubt from police that Mr Brooks was not afforded. I didn’t go putting words in your mouth and throwing a tantrum so I won’t be partaking in an “adult” conversation with you.

You should go for a lie down or something

Why’s that line of thought laughable?

“ Let’s see what would happen if you were white...”

I don’t need to put words in your mouth. You literally said it yourself. I don’t need to assume your thinking - your post was clear as day. You were trying to claim that if you were white that you simply won’t be killed by the police for grabbing there weapons/attacking them. Which is utter nonsense.

[calumhibee1]

If you really believe that, it means you believe the police are entitled to shoot anyone they consider capable may be capable of disarming them. I can't understand that point of view.

No, it doesn’t. It means that once they’ve tried to arrest somebody for drink driving, they’ve resisted arrest, broke free from the attempted arrest, disarmed the officer and managed to get their hands on one of their weapons - a weapon that is designed to temporarily incapacitate someone neurologically - and then the person has attempted to use that weapon on the officer - bearing in mind that the officer has a lethal weapon on them and this person has already proven they’re more than willing to take a weapon off them - that they’re then entitled to shoot them. That’s what I believe.

That’s quite a bit different from “oh that guy could maybe disarm me somehow. I’ll just go and shoot them” as your very basic example suggests.

The way some folk talk about a taser being non lethal so nonchalantly on this thread you’d think it was like getting slapped by a pool noodle and not a weapon designed to incapacitate.

[calumhibee1]

Who’s to judge how scared the police officer was though? If some whack job was on the loose with a taser after recent events and the amount of harass the police are under especially I would be scared as ****. Just calmly arrest the guy? The taser is a for a reason and for me it’s a legitimate reason to protect your own and colleagues lives.

:agree:

Just a taser though. It’s non lethal so the police should have just went home that night, let him keep it and tried again another day.

[Bristolhibby]

No, it doesn’t. It means that once they’ve tried to arrest somebody for drink driving, they’ve resisted arrest, broke free from the attempted arrest, disarmed the officer and managed to get their hands on one of their weapons - a weapon that is designed to temporarily incapacitate someone neurologically - and then the person has attempted to use that weapon on the officer - bearing in mind that the officer has a lethal weapon on them and this person has already proven they’re more than willing to take a weapon off them - that they’re then entitled to shoot them. That’s what I believe.

That’s quite a bit different from “oh that guy could maybe disarm me somehow. I’ll just go and shoot them” as your very basic example suggests.

The way some folk talk about a taser being non lethal so nonchalantly on this thread you’d think it was like getting slapped by a pool noodle and not a weapon designed to incapacitate.

Well it’s not going to kill you, it’s a one shot weapon. His partner was also there. Call for backup. Don’t shoot him dead in the back.

Anyway. It seems Atlanta Police think he was waaay over the top and have fired him as well as the chief of Police resigning.

J

[-Jonesy-]

Why’s that line of thought laughable?

“ Let’s see what would happen if you were white...”

I don’t need to put words in your mouth. You literally said it yourself. I don’t need to assume your thinking - your post was clear as day. You were trying to claim that if you were white that you simply won’t be killed by the police for grabbing there weapons/attacking them. Which is utter nonsense.

Please forgive my ignorance for posting those videos along with the single line “let’s see what would happen if you were white” and not realising that you would take it as a be all and end all summation of racial based police brutality 🙄

[calumhibee1]

Well it’s not going to kill you, it’s a one shot weapon. His partner was also there. Call for backup. Don’t shoot him dead in the back.

Anyway. It seems Atlanta Police think he was waaay over the top and have fired him as well as the chief of Police resigning.

J

Where are people getting the whole non lethal taser thing? A quick google search hasn’t thrown up anywhere reporting that. The family are suggesting tasers are non lethal but that’s not necessarily the case - unless this was some type of specifically non lethal one but again, nowhere seems to be reporting that. Of course I may have just not read it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taser_safety_issues

“180 deaths were reported to have been associated with Tasers in the US by 2006. By 2019 that figure had increased to over 1,000.”

[Scouse Hibee]

Who’s to judge how scared the police officer was though? If some whack job was on the loose with a taser after recent events and the amount of harass the police are under especially I would be scared as ****. Just calmly arrest the guy? The taser is a for a reason and for me it’s a legitimate reason to protect your own and colleagues lives.

The guy was running from the Police not towards them that puts a whole different context on the threat the cops would have felt. There were two cops one still had his taser and both were also armed, there can be no justification in my opinion.

[Just_Jimmy]

Point of order on tasers and taser training. While I cannot speak for the US, in the UK tasers are designed with cartridges. They come from a trigger. You pull the trigger for a burst. You then let go to stop shocking the person. Retention is a massive part of training for the following reason.

In the wrong hands if the trigger is pulled without release there is no chance to call for help, and every chance the person would die due to their heart giving out with continuous shock.

Tasers are not non-lethal. They are a less lethal level of force.

That's a point of order. It's not a comment on the incident in the US.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/15/rayshard-brooks-police-shooting-was-homicide-says-medical-examiner

Confirmation he was shot in the back and ruled a homicide by an independent medical professional.

I hope this will be cause for some posters to reconsider their previous views.

[Betty Boop]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilyhoerner/police-facebook-racist-violent-posts-comments-philadelphia?utm_source=The%2525252BAppeal&utm_campaign=2f50a0e133-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_09_04_14_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_72df992d84-2f50a0e133-58414635



If anyone doubted that there was institutional racism in the American police, you need to read some of these comments.

[neil7908]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilyhoerner/police-facebook-racist-violent-posts-comments-philadelphia?utm_source=The%2525252BAppeal&utm_campaign=2f50a0e133-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_09_04_14_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_72df992d84-2f50a0e133-58414635



If anyone doubted that there was institutional racism in the American police, you need to read some of these comments.

Scary stuff but sadly unsurprising.

[Callum_62]

Great thread

https://twitter.com/KristaVernoff/status/1272561179462754304?s=19

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Jones28]

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilyhoerner/police-facebook-racist-violent-posts-comments-philadelphia?utm_source=The%2525252BAppeal&utm_campaign=2f50a0e133-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2018_08_09_04_14_COPY_01&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_72df992d84-2f50a0e133-58414635



If anyone doubted that there was institutional racism in the American police, you need to read some of these comments.

That’s scary stuff. An incredible lack of intelligence from people who are trusted with protecting people and lethal weapons.

[neil7908]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/jun/17/rayshard-brooks-shooting-police-officer-cover-up-accusations-garrett-rolfe

[-Jonesy-]

Anybody seen the video of the female US cop having a breakdown because her McMuffin was a few minutes late?

https://twitter.com/tkag2020_ann/status/1273075677454098436?s=21

Don’t think anyone suffering from severe anxiety because of a delay of a fast food order should be allowed to carry a weapon with the power to discharge it at anyone if they feel frightened.

It’s definitely not the biggest injustice to happen in a drive through this week for sure.

[Hibrandenburg]

Anybody seen the video of the female US cop having a breakdown because her McMuffin was a few minutes late?

https://twitter.com/tkag2020_ann/status/1273075677454098436?s=21

Don’t think anyone suffering from severe anxiety because of a delay of a fast food order should be allowed to carry a weapon with the power to discharge it at anyone if they feel frightened.

It’s definitely not the biggest injustice to happen in a drive through this week for sure.

Just a reminder that the strain of the current situation is not only effecting the victims and perpetrators, but also all those tarred with the same brush.

[bigwheel]

Just a reminder that the strain of the current situation is not only effecting the victims and perpetrators, but also all those tarred with the same brush.

That’s a fair point to remind people of. not an easy time for those trying to do the right thing too

[Mibbes Aye]

Just a reminder that the strain of the current situation is not only effecting the victims and perpetrators, but also all those tarred with the same brush.

I have not viewed the clip. I try and avoid Twitter.

I need to agree though. In the public sector, whether health, social work, law enforcement, the military, housing standards, whatever, we sometimes get it wrong. Sometimes horrifically wrong.

Trying to work around negative public perceptions or mistrust, as a consequence of getting it wrong, is hard work. Most people in public service are motivated by a strong and sound value base.

I would also add that I don’t think this should be saddled on ‘bad’ individuals. There are serious structural issues that create the conditions whereby marginalised and vulnerable people experience worse outcomes and harm.

[Speedy]

Just a reminder that the strain of the current situation is not only effecting the victims and perpetrators, but also all those tarred with the same brush.

Agreed. Appreciate the video is in America so not totally comparable but 'Be Kind' & 'Thank You Key Workers' has very quickly been replaced by lets all give each other pelters on twitter.

[hibsbollah]

Agreed. Appreciate the video is in America so not totally comparable but 'Be Kind' & 'Thank You Key Workers' has very quickly been replaced by lets all give each other pelters on twitter.

I get links to individual tweets but I don’t use Twitter and I have no interest in doing so. Just seems like a lot of activity involves folk throwing stanes at windaes and running away.

[Betty Boop]

Police officer charged with the murder of Rayshard Brooks. Prosecutors obviously thought the shooting was unjustified.

[-Jonesy-]

Police officer charged with the murder of Rayshard Brooks. Prosecutors obviously thought the shooting was unjustified.

Felony murder charge, could face the death penalty.

Wonder if we’ll get the same posters with the same tired blinkered opinions to come and tell us they know better than the States Attorney in this case

[-Jonesy-]

From an statement by the DA

“Fulton County DA Paul Howard says former officer Garrett Rolfe knew that the taser Rayshard Brooks was holding had been fired twice and didn't pose any danger to the officers when Brooks turned and tried to fire it at officers before Rolfe shot Brooks in the back.

He also noted that for a period of more than two minutes after he was shot, "there was no medical attention applied to Mr. Brooks."

Georgia officials also said that Rolfe kicked Brooks while he was on the ground.

In filing charges, Howard said, prosecutors relied in part on a statement made on the video by Rolfe, "I got him."

[Scouse Hibee]

From an statement by the DA

“Fulton County DA Paul Howard says former officer Garrett Rolfe knew that the taser Rayshard Brooks was holding had been fired twice and didn't pose any danger to the officers when Brooks turned and tried to fire it at officers before Rolfe shot Brooks in the back.

He also noted that for a period of more than two minutes after he was shot, "there was no medical attention applied to Mr. Brooks."

Georgia officials also said that Rolfe kicked Brooks while he was on the ground.

In filing charges, Howard said, prosecutors relied in part on a statement made on the video by Rolfe, "I got him."

The majority of people that watched that video would have the same opinion, there was absolutely no justification for the shooting.

[calumhibee1]

Felony murder charge, could face the death penalty.

Wonder if we’ll get the same posters with the same tired blinkered opinions to come and tell us they know better than the States Attorney in this case

Going by that logic I presume you don’t agree with the BLM movement protesting about the deaths of black people where the States Attorney have said that the police acted lawfully when next to nobody else agrees with those findings? I mean nobody can possibly know better/hold a different opinion to the States Attorney/other bodies making these decisions, can they?

Or does it only work that way if it suits your viewpoint?

[-Jonesy-]

Going by that logic I presume you don’t agree with the BLM movement protesting about the deaths of black people where the States Attorney have said that the police acted lawfully when next to nobody else agrees with those findings? I mean nobody can possibly know better/hold a different opinion to the States Attorney/other bodies making these decisions, can they?

Or does it only work that way if it suits your viewpoint?

Knew it wouldn’t take too long, I did say “this case” didn’t I?

[calumhibee1]

Knew it wouldn’t take too long, I did say “this case” didn’t I?

I’ll take that as confirmation that it only works that way if it suits your viewpoint then.

[-Jonesy-]

Take what you man you always do anyway

[JeMeSouviens]

Dominic Raab showing his considerable intellectual heft again. :rolleyes:

https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1273549760394334208

[beensaidbefore]

I’ll take that as confirmation that it only works that way if it suits your viewpoint then.

:greengrin

[Cabbage East]

I’ll take that as confirmation that it only works that way if it suits your viewpoint then.

You're coming across terribly on this thread.

[Scouse Hibee]

I’ll take that as confirmation that it only works that way if it suits your viewpoint then.

Or the other way if it suits yours it seems!

[CapitalGreen]

Going by that logic I presume you don’t agree with the BLM movement protesting about the deaths of black people where the States Attorney have said that the police acted lawfully when next to nobody else agrees with those findings? I mean nobody can possibly know better/hold a different opinion to the States Attorney/other bodies making these decisions, can they?

Or does it only work that way if it suits your viewpoint?

Just admit you got this one wrong.

[calumhibee1]

Just admit you got this one wrong.

Opinions are never ‘wrong’.

If that was the case then like I said, you would have to say that once the courts etc find these policemen that have killed black people in the past not guilty that you then also have to change your opinion to the policemen being not guilty.

Or of course you could still have your opinion.. which wouldn’t make you wrong.

George Zimmerman was never convicted of killing Trayvon Martin for example. I’d imagine most folk on here, myself included would agree he should have been. It doesn’t make us ‘wrong’ though.

[CapitalGreen]

Opinions are never ‘wrong’.

If that was the case then like I said, you would have to say that once the courts etc find these policemen that have killed black people in the past not guilty that you then also have to change your opinion to the policemen being not guilty.

Or of course you could still have your opinion.. which wouldn’t make you wrong.

George Zimmerman was never convicted of killing Trayvon Martin for example. I’d imagine most folk on here, myself included would agree he should have been. It doesn’t make us ‘wrong’ though.

Of course opinions can be wrong, people change their opinions all the time.

Last September it was my opinion that Joe Newell would never be a decent player for Hibs. As the season progressed and his performances improved I realised my previous opinion was wrong, I have no problem admitting that now.

I’m not saying your opinion is wrong, I’m suggesting that you admit that it was wrong yourself.

[neil7908]

I’ll take that as confirmation that it only works that way if it suits your viewpoint then.

I'm genuinely interested to know if your opinion has shifted here. There is a lot more information available - do you still believe the cops actions were justified?

[speedy_gonzales]

Of course opinions can be wrong, people change their opinions all the time.

Last September it was my opinion that Joe Newell would never be a decent player for Hibs. As the season progressed and his performances improved I realised my previous opinion was wrong, I have no problem admitting that now.

I’m not saying your opinion is wrong, I’m suggesting that you admit that it was wrong yourself.

Apologies for further dragging the thread off topic, but opinions that are persuasive can't be wrong, can they?
A personal opinion, like yours, can be reappraised, and therefore change over time. But your original opinion was right for you at that time.
Opinions based on "fact" can be "wrong" if the fact is incorrect, either way, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's valid.


In my humble opinion of course 😀

[Slavers]

Two world changing events 9/11 & the murder of George Floyd.

What's the connection?

8.46am - the exact time the first plane hit the twin towers.

8.46 - 8 minutes and 46 seconds was the length of time the police had his knee on George Floyd's neck.

It' strange symmetry.

[calumhibee1]

I'm genuinely interested to know if your opinion has shifted here. There is a lot more information available - do you still believe the cops actions were justified?

With the further information that is now available I would say that it probably wasn’t justified - mainly the information that the officers knew the taser posed NO threat as it wasn’t ‘loaded’ or whatever the terminology would be for a taser.

[calumhibee1]

Of course opinions can be wrong, people change their opinions all the time.

Last September it was my opinion that Joe Newell would never be a decent player for Hibs. As the season progressed and his performances improved I realised my previous opinion was wrong, I have no problem admitting that now.

I’m not saying your opinion is wrong, I’m suggesting that you admit that it was wrong yourself.

See SG post. Opinions aren’t wrong.

[CapitalGreen]

Two world changing events 9/11 & the murder of George Floyd.

What's the connection?

8.46am - the exact time the first plane hit the twin towers.

8.46 - 8 minutes and 46 seconds was the length of time the police had his knee on George Floyd's neck.

It' strange symmetry.

Yas, here we f***in go! 😈 🍿

[lapsedhibee]

Two world changing events 9/11 & the murder of George Floyd.

What's the connection?

8.46am - the exact time the first plane hit the twin towers.

8.46 - 8 minutes and 46 seconds was the length of time the police had his knee on George Floyd's neck.

It' strange symmetry.

Lizards.

[neil7908]

With the further information that is now available I would say that it probably wasn’t justified - mainly the information that the officers knew the taser posed NO threat as it wasn’t ‘loaded’ or whatever the terminology would be for a taser.

Fair play.

[CapitalGreen]

With the further information that is now available I would say that it probably wasn’t justified - mainly the information that the officers knew the taser posed NO threat as it wasn’t ‘loaded’ or whatever the terminology would be for a taser.

Respect you admitting your previous position that it was justified was wrong.

[Peevemor]

With the further information that is now available I would say that it probably wasn’t justified - mainly the information that the officers knew the taser posed NO threat as it wasn’t ‘loaded’ or whatever the terminology would be for a taser.

I was undecided until I saw this too.

Had it been one-on-one and the guy aimed a live taser at the policemen, then IMO the policeman would have been right to shoot.
2 vs 1 - That's where I was undecided - the other policeman was there had the first been "tased".
The fact that the taser was dead, and the policemean should have been aware enough to know this, changes everything for me.

[calumhibee1]

Respect you admitting your previous position that it was justified was wrong.

Yawn.

[Hibrandenburg]

Another video showing police brutality has cropped up from 2018. The video shows a paralysed man being tasered before getting dragged out of his car and thrown to the ground with his trousers around his knees. You can clearly hear him and his girlfriend anxiously telling the officers that he's paralysed and you can even see his wheelchair through the car window. Apparently he was being arrested for indecent exposure whilst trying to urinate into a catheter in his car.

I didn't know what I was watching because it was sent to me by a friend, but I found it very disturbing and suggest you don't click the link if you're easily upset but I still feel this needs to be shared as it shows how badly trained US police officers are and it adds context to the current situation.

https://youtu.be/2xnO8vYs79Y

[calumhibee1]

I see two officers in Oklahoma have been charged with murder after killing a man due to their use of a taser.

[bigwheel]

I see two officers in Oklahoma have been charged with murder after killing a man due to their use of a taser.

Not sure what your point is..but The story of the killing on this thread is well known now . The taser had been shot twice . The policemen both knew this. They also knew that this type of taser after being used twice automatically has reduced power - shoots only a reduced charge. It is recognised by all involved that there was no material threat from this particular taser at the time the guy, running away, was shot and killed . One of them also kicked him when he was lying down dying by the way ..

[calumhibee1]

Not sure what your point is..but The story of the killing on this thread is well known now . The taser had been shot twice . The policemen both knew this. They also knew that this type of taser after being used twice automatically has reduced power - shoots only a reduced charge. It is recognised by all involved that there was no material threat from this particular taser at the time the guy, running away, was shot and killed . One of them also kicked him when he was lying down dying by the way ..

My point is purely that a taser is a lethal weapon. A fact that a good few on this thread were adamant wasn’t the case - yourself being one of them if i remember correctly. Nothing else to do with the previous discussion or whether it was justified or not. Just a simple point about the dangers of a taser.

[Scouse Hibee]

My point is purely that a taser is a lethal weapon. A fact that a good few on this thread were adamant wasn’t the case - yourself being one of them if i remember correctly. Nothing else to do with the previous discussion or whether it was justified or not. Just a simple point about the dangers of a taser.

Surely any weapon that has caused the death of someone could be referred to as a lethal weapon after the event?
It’s generally accepted that a taser is the none lethal alternative to a firearm hence why cops carry both so not sure what your point actually is?

[bigwheel]

My point is purely that a taser is a lethal weapon. A fact that a good few on this thread were adamant wasn’t the case - yourself being one of them if i remember correctly. Nothing else to do with the previous discussion or whether it was justified or not. Just a simple point about the dangers of a taser.

Fair enough ..agree with that [emoji106]

[calumhibee1]

Surely any weapon that has caused the death of someone could be referred to as a lethal weapon after the event?
It’s generally accepted that a taser is the none lethal alternative to a firearm hence why cops carry both so not sure what your point actually is?

Tasers are specifically marketed as a "less lethal" weapon rather than "non-lethal" as they kept being described as on this thread. The actual 'Taser' brand specifically market them as "less lethal".

Again, you describing a taser as non-lethal is incorrect.

Anyway, it doesn't change my thinking on the previous death, as I said once the facts came out, my initial response was wrong and the police deserve to be duly punished. The story just reminded me of this thread and the fact they kept being described as non-lethal when they're quite clearly not.

[Scouse Hibee]

Tasers are specifically marketed as a "less lethal" weapon rather than "non-lethal" as they kept being described as on this thread. The actual 'Taser' brand specifically market them as "less lethal".

Again, you describing a taser as non-lethal is incorrect.

Anyway, it doesn't change my thinking on the previous death, as I said once the facts came out, my initial response was wrong and the police deserve to be duly punished. The story just reminded me of this thread and the fact they kept being described as non-lethal when they're quite clearly not.

👍 Okay fair enough, I had never heard them described as less lethal before, a quick google search brought up the info as you have stated. Every day is a school day as they say 😁

[calumhibee1]

👍 Okay fair enough, I had never heard them described as less lethal before, a quick google search brought up the info as you have stated. Every day is a school day as they say 😁

:aok: