Another black American killed by police.

[hibsbollah]

1) I have already stated that there is an issue with the way minorities are dealt with by the police and that it MUST be addressed. I agree that when you are apprehended by law enforcement, it is not up to the individual officers to be judge, jury and executioner.

2) Ahmaud had been trespassing (YES, NOT PUNISHABLE BY DEATH). It appears that Floyd had been resisting arrest after being apprehended for using forged bank notes (YES, NOT PUNISHABLE BY DEATH).

3) I'd be interested to hear some examples of brutality against minorities who weren't engaging in a criminal act.

4) That is correct, but throwing objects at police officers, looting and arson are classed as criminal activities.

5) What does that even mean?

1. That’s the law.
2. Defending the indefensible. Ahmaud jogged every day, sometimes passing through a disused grounds of a building, as did apparently many others of all races, it wasn’t even clear to people whether it was private property. Then he was lynched, essentially, by a retired cop and his mates. Are you actually defending that on the basis of accidental trespass :faf:

3. Literally thousands of cases. Try reading a bit.
4. The protestors moved on so Trump could trespass on Catholic Church property while making a weird messianic photo op were peaceful, and they were brutalised for the world to see.
5. There’s a clear definition in most dictionaries.

[AT8]

That is just simply not true though is it? Was David McAtee engaging in criminal activity when he was shot dead?

This is another tragic incident but it appears that David McAtee wasn't directly targeted. If reports are to believed, the police were returning fire at the crowd. Regardless, this is yet another tragic loss of life.

[hibsbollah]

Once again, I said you don't get to call people "absolute tools" and judge their voting choice. I stand by what I said.

Why are you defending what you said by quoting something else that you said? I think you’re tying yourself in knots a bit.

[-Jonesy-]

Once again, fake news is being used here. He said there were fine people on both sides, which is absolutely correct. The nazis and antifa are both equally ****, however, there were good people there to counter protest and there were good people who put value in historical monuments.

When a leader sees his nation being destroyed by anarchists, he has to take control and that's what he is trying to do. There can be no discussions on how to move forward until this anarchy is stopped.

Nice deflection but would you consider actually addressing any of the pints I made about trump and his inability to handle the crisis properly and act like an actual president?

[bigwheel]

1) I have already stated that there is an issue with the way minorities are dealt with by the police and that it MUST be addressed. I agree that when you are apprehended by law enforcement, it is not up to the individual officers to be judge, jury and executioner.

2) Ahmaud had been trespassing (YES, NOT PUNISHABLE BY DEATH). It appears that Floyd had been resisting arrest after being apprehended for using forged bank notes (YES, NOT PUNISHABLE BY DEATH).

3) I'd be interested to hear some examples of brutality against minorities who weren't engaging in a criminal act.

4) That is correct, but throwing objects at police officers, looting and arson are classed as criminal activities.

5) What does that even mean?

Honestly, you can’t seriously put point three out there without parody ?? surely you realise that black people are persecuted and prejudiced every single day when often completely innocent ..any media reviews or searches will give you hundreds of stories of persecution..for simply being black . You have the New York Times , in your locality - one of the best set of journalists on the planet - just spend some time reading their work in racism and prejudice ..it is both objective and shocking .

[AT8]

Why are you defending what you said by quoting something else that you said? I think you’re tying yourself in knots a bit.

For God's sake, I stated that someone who isn't here in America should not be judging others on their voting preference and labelling them "absolute tools". Unless you have to live by the policies of this nation, you can't understand what makes people vote a certain way.

[Ozyhibby]

I'm not claiming wisdom

Phew.[emoji23]


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[Kato]

3) I'd be interested to hear some examples of brutality against minorities who weren't engaging in a criminal act.




You're not really.


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[hibsbollah]

For God's sake, I stated that someone who isn't here in America should not be judging others on their voting preference and labelling them "absolute tools". Unless you have to live by the policies of this nation, you can't understand what makes people vote a certain way.

Thanks for addressing the point, finally. I disagree with you. I repeat, yes you can. We are all able to judge one another’s behaviour as humans regardless of whether we are of the same nationality. That’s why human rights are universal.

[Pretty Boy]

This is another tragic incident but it appears that David McAtee wasn't directly targeted. If reports are to believed, the police were returning fire at the crowd. Regardless, this is yet another tragic loss of life.

Quite convenient both officers failed to turn on their body cameras though. One of said officers also openly mocking protesters on social media and delighting in one of them being injured is quite an interesting note as well.

A lot of 'tragic incidents' seem to involve black people:

Tamir Rice - 12 year old, killed for playing with a toy.
Walter Scott - Had a broken light on his car
Freddie Gray - Died from severe spinal injuries, possessed a legal knife
Jamar Clark - Shot and killed when allegedly trying to reach for an officers service weapon. Independent witnesses state he was handcuffed at the time.
Stephon Clark - Unarmed. Shot and killed by Police investigating 'someone' breaking car windows.
Botham Jean - Shot and killed in his own apartment. Off duty police officer claimed she went to the wrong apartment and mistook him for a burglar

That's scratching the surface.......

[Berwickhibby]

This is another tragic incident but it appears that David McAtee wasn't directly targeted. If reports are to believed, the police were returning fire at the crowd. Regardless, this is yet another tragic loss of life.

HFC_NYC bud, may I suggest that you bow out, I am sure you must have more important things to concern you especially right now in the States. You can attempt to debate this subject here from your point of view and from your own first hand experience, but with this being such an emotive subject (rightly so) you will be challenged vigorously

[AT8]

Yup, I'm out. I'm the bad guy and an absolute tool because I have a different point of view.

[lapsedhibee]

Thanks for addressing the point, finally. I disagree with you. I repeat, yes you can. We are all able to judge one another’s behaviour as humans regardless of whether we are of the same nationality. That’s why human rights are universal.

Phew. For a second there I was wondering if I should feel guilty about judging Boris Johnson an absolute tool because I don't live in Uxbridge.

[hibsbollah]

Phew. For a second there I was wondering if I should feel guilty about judging Boris Johnson an absolute tool because I don't live in Uxbridge.

...and you weren’t born in Turkey either :greengrin

(well you might be I suppose)

[Kato]

Yup, I'm out. I'm the bad guy and an absolute tool because I have a different point of view.I think people are calling you out for being blind to certain facts, whether its wilful ignorance or not doesn't matter.

PS I think its wilful and have no idea why I'm even engaging.

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[Future17]

For God's sake, I stated that someone who isn't here in America should not be judging others on their voting preference and labelling them "absolute tools". Unless you have to live by the policies of this nation, you can't understand what makes people vote a certain way.

So, as you don't live in Scotland, you shouldn't be expressing an opinion about Hibs?

[matty_f]

My family and friends wouldn't be getting murdered by police because they don't engage in criminal activity. I'm not for a minute suggesting that the police have the power to administer the death sentence, but a blind man can see that if you don't engage in criminal activity, you won't encounter police brutality.

Unless you're black, which is largely the point in all of this.

[Hiber-nation]

Yup, I'm out. I'm the bad guy and an absolute tool because I have a different point of view.

No, you're just praising a bad guy who's an absolute tool.

[Andy74]

Unless you're black, which is largely the point in all of this.

Although twice as many white people in the US die at the hands of the police than black people.

It points to a system based on aggression, violence and the inherent fear and reactions that guns bring rather than necessarily being aimed at race.

It is an extremely difficult subject, obviously, and there is a huge weight of history there but I'm not sure how it gets better when any situation against black person is taken as being based on racism.

There was an article on the BBC earlier about a Radio 1 DJ who said they couldn't go to work following it because the death had affected them so much and that it showed that whilst we want black culture we don't want black people. If you are going to extrapolate that from some idiot cops being aggressive to someone then I don't know the way out. Would they have treated a white person the same way? The stats show that they probably would.

There was another decent commentary on a website today, don't recall where, where it highlighted that white people in the US tend to compartmentalise crimes against white people to the situation. They can because there isn't a history there other than the incident itself. Black people have more tendency to make it about the whole thing. It is absolutely understandable but history can't be changed so until you stop crime I don't know how it will stop being taken as a race issue every time.

[StevesFamau5]

Yup, I'm out. I'm the bad guy and an absolute tool because I have a different point of view.Oh grow up with the 'poor me' attitude.

Some of the things that you posted are just plain rubbish.

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[calumhibee1]

Would anyone that can remember them say this is worse than the LA riots after Rodney King?

[Vault Boy]

Although twice as many white people in the US die at the hands of the police than black people.

It points to a system based on aggression, violence and the inherent fear and reactions that guns bring rather than necessarily being aimed at race.

It is an extremely difficult subject, obviously, and there is a huge weight of history there but I'm not sure how it gets better when any situation against black person is taken as being based on racism.

There was an article on the BBC earlier about a Radio 1 DJ who said they couldn't go to work following it because the death had affected them so much and that it showed that whilst we want black culture we don't want black people. If you are going to extrapolate that from some idiot cops being aggressive to someone then I don't know the way out. Would they have treated a white person the same way? The stats show that they probably would.

There was another decent commentary on a website today, don't recall where, where it highlighted that white people in the US tend to compartmentalise crimes against white people to the situation. They can because there isn't a history there other than the incident itself. Black people have more tendency to make it about the whole thing. It is absolutely understandable but history can't be changed so until you stop crime I don't know how it will stop being taken as a race issue every time.

The numbers aren't proportionate though Andy. More white people die via the police because they make up the overwhelming majority of the population, those figures raise their own questions about police violence, but that's not racism. Black people made up 24% of police deaths last year despite being only 13% of the population. The biggest difference is white people in the USA aren't killed on the basis of their race. The murderer who killed George Floyd had a KKK application is his house. It's taken as a race issue because it IS a race issue.

A white man wouldn't have been killed for running like Ahmaud Arbery was either, so it's not just the police.

[Pretty Boy]

Although twice as many white people in the US die at the hands of the police than black people.

It points to a system based on aggression, violence and the inherent fear and reactions that guns bring rather than necessarily being aimed at race.

It is an extremely difficult subject, obviously, and there is a huge weight of history there but I'm not sure how it gets better when any situation against black person is taken as being based on racism.

There was an article on the BBC earlier about a Radio 1 DJ who said they couldn't go to work following it because the death had affected them so much and that it showed that whilst we want black culture we don't want black people. If you are going to extrapolate that from some idiot cops being aggressive to someone then I don't know the way out. Would they have treated a white person the same way? The stats show that they probably would.

There was another decent commentary on a website today, don't recall where, where it highlighted that white people in the US tend to compartmentalise crimes against white people to the situation. They can because there isn't a history there other than the incident itself. Black people have more tendency to make it about the whole thing. It is absolutely understandable but history can't be changed so until you stop crime I don't know how it will stop being taken as a race issue every time.

White people make up 73% of the US population, African Americans just under 13% and mixed race white/black 0.8%.

If 'only' twice as many white people are killed by Police despite accounting for almost 6x the population that suggests the figures for black people is somewhat disproportionate.

[CropleyWasGod]

Would anyone that can remember them say this is worse than the LA riots after Rodney King?

In terms of the spread across the US, this is worse.

In terms of intensity, deaths etc, not as bad. Yet.

[bigwheel]

Although twice as many white people in the US die at the hands of the police than black people.

It points to a system based on aggression, violence and the inherent fear and reactions that guns bring rather than necessarily being aimed at race.

It is an extremely difficult subject, obviously, and there is a huge weight of history there but I'm not sure how it gets better when any situation against black person is taken as being based on racism.

There was an article on the BBC earlier about a Radio 1 DJ who said they couldn't go to work following it because the death had affected them so much and that it showed that whilst we want black culture we don't want black people. If you are going to extrapolate that from some idiot cops being aggressive to someone then I don't know the way out. Would they have treated a white person the same way? The stats show that they probably would.

There was another decent commentary on a website today, don't recall where, where it highlighted that white people in the US tend to compartmentalise crimes against white people to the situation. They can because there isn't a history there other than the incident itself. Black people have more tendency to make it about the whole thing. It is absolutely understandable but history can't be changed so until you stop crime I don't know how it will stop being taken as a race issue every time.

White people don’t get treated the same as black people. Surely you realise this?

There are five times the amount of white people in the US than black ...the stats you share underline that this is disproportionately about race, there’s other elements involved but racism and prejudice is driving black peoples to be impacted in quite a different way to white people.. despite being 1/5th of the white population, there are more black inmates in the prison system in the US than white . this is not a topic that is colour blind...

I have every empathy with the deep reaction of the DJ - it shows someone who is seeking to understand the complexity and despair of this.

This is not a story of solely criminals. Imagine often having to tread carefully through your everyday life just because of the colour of your skin ? That is the world of black people in the year 2020. White people don’t even have to consider those things .

[Andy74]

The numbers aren't proportionate though Andy. More white people die via the police because they make up the overwhelming majority of the population, those figures raise their own questions about police violence, but that's not racism. Black people made up 24% of police deaths last year despite being only 13% of the population. The biggest difference is white people in the USA aren't killed on the basis of their race. The murderer who killed George Floyd had a KKK application is his house. It's taken as a race issue because it IS a race issue.

A white man wouldn't have been killed for running like Ahmaud Arbery was either, so it's not just the police.

Yes but there's more nuance to the proportions including the social and economic factors that lead to more black people being in situations where they are involved in criminal activity.

You cannot just say that people are killed because of their race unless it is proven to be the motivating factor - and even then individual cases will always happen for all sorts of reasons.

What are all the reasons that white people end up on the wrong side of this, or latino people? Are they all explainable by other means but black people are just killed for being black?

[matty_f]

Although twice as many white people in the US die at the hands of the police than black people.

It points to a system based on aggression, violence and the inherent fear and reactions that guns bring rather than necessarily being aimed at race.

It is an extremely difficult subject, obviously, and there is a huge weight of history there but I'm not sure how it gets better when any situation against black person is taken as being based on racism.

There was an article on the BBC earlier about a Radio 1 DJ who said they couldn't go to work following it because the death had affected them so much and that it showed that whilst we want black culture we don't want black people. If you are going to extrapolate that from some idiot cops being aggressive to someone then I don't know the way out. Would they have treated a white person the same way? The stats show that they probably would.

There was another decent commentary on a website today, don't recall where, where it highlighted that white people in the US tend to compartmentalise crimes against white people to the situation. They can because there isn't a history there other than the incident itself. Black people have more tendency to make it about the whole thing. It is absolutely understandable but history can't be changed so until you stop crime I don't know how it will stop being taken as a race issue every time.

With respect, if you can't or won't see the race issue in the numbers you quote, or from the reaction across America to this, then discussing it on here isn't going to change your mind.

[lord bunberry]

In terms of the spread across the US, this is worse.

In terms of intensity, deaths etc, not as bad. Yet.
I agree, this seems to have brought people together to say enough is enough. It feels much bigger than the Rodney King protests, I really hope this brings about change this time.

[CropleyWasGod]

I agree, this seems to have brought people together to say enough is enough. It feels much bigger than the Rodney King protests, I really hope this brings about change this time.

There's also a big difference, in that social media has helped spread things more quickly. In 92, we relied on T.V.

[Vault Boy]

Yes but there's more nuance to the proportions including the social and economic factors that lead to more black people being in situations where they are involved in criminal activity.

You cannot just say that people are killed because of their race unless it is proven to be the motivating factor - and even then individual cases will always happen for all sorts of reasons.

What are all the reasons that white people end up on the wrong side of this, or latino people? Are they all explainable by other means but black people are just killed for being black?

When black people are being killed in disproportionate numbers, by a mostly white police force, in a mostly white country, that is a very different situation than a proportionate number of white deaths due to the overzealous aggression of that same police force. As I said, the officer who murdered George Floyd, sparking these riots, had an actual KKK application form in his house. Are you ignoring that? There's no 'KKK' for white people because white people don't experience racism in the USA. There lies the difference and it's frankly as plain as the day.

I would also encourage you to examine some of the statistics for BAME murders committed in States that are often highlighted for their anti-black racism, i.e. those who fought on the losing side of the Civil War. Racism is in the blood of America, it's foundationally part of its very existence. This can't be ignored.

[bigwheel]

Yes but there's more nuance to the proportions including the social and economic factors that lead to more black people being in situations where they are involved in criminal activity.

You cannot just say that people are killed because of their race unless it is proven to be the motivating factor - and even then individual cases will always happen for all sorts of reasons.

What are all the reasons that white people end up on the wrong side of this, or latino people? Are they all explainable by other means but black people are just killed for being black?

Honestly, and I know you’ll think i’m being rude or a tosser on this but your points are so crude and the topic is too important. I’d recommend you start reading on this issue...literally anything anything on the topic of racism, xenophobia or intolerance would be a start.


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[Andy74]

With respect, if you can't or won't see the race issue in the numbers you quote, or from the reaction across America to this, then discussing it on here isn't going to change your mind.

I'm saying it is far more nuanced and there have been endless studies on this over the years without it being able to be blamed purely on racism.

I lived in the deep South so I absolutely get the issue - I don't need my mind changing as I know it is a factor and the US still has a problem with this.

I'm responding to people saying that white people would never have been treated that way and black people are just purely down to racism. That is clearly wrong as well. There is far more to it than that.

Reactions are always a strange thing Matty - why this one? It is a point in time, Trump and his reaction has a part to play. In terms of the actual facts of the crime I don't know what made this one different. There's also a reaction the lockdown in there too in the US.

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm saying it is far more nuanced and there have been endless studies on this over the years without it being able to be blamed purely on racism.

I lived in the deep South so I absolutely get the issue - I don't need my mind changing as I know it is a factor and the US still has a problem with this.

I'm responding to people saying that white people would never have been treated that way and black people are just purely down to racism. That is clearly wrong as well. There is far more to it than that.

Reactions are always a strange thing Matty - why this one? It is a point in time, Trump and his reaction has a part to play. In terms of the actual facts of the crime I don't know what made this one different. There's also a reaction the lockdown in there too in the US.

I'd imagine that this time there has been a pandemic which has killed over 100,000 Americans and statistically the black people and minorities have been hit harder, there has been quarantine, 40m people out of work, Trump coming out with his bull**** statements, a man murdered in front of the world, it's all culminated into the perfect storm and people have had enough

[Andy74]

Honestly, and I know you’ll think i’m being rude or a tosser on this but your points are so crude and the topic is too important. I’d recommend you start reading on this issue...literally anything anything on the topic of racism, xenophobia or intolerance would be a start.


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Yes, that is being a bit of a tosser actually.

Don't patronise me. Having studied criminology and read a fair bit on this topic at a more academic level than press reports and twitter then I could get into the various studies a bit more if you'd like?

Of course there is racism in America but it is not actually played out as starkly as is getting argued on here in the figures. Where you do see the difference is in sentencing - where black people are far more likely to get longer sentences - again there have been a lot of studies into the inherent bias that exist there but again a lot of the reporting is skewed when you factor in the availability of being able to pay bail which has a knock on impact.

Crime rates have a huge part to play in the proportions being discussed above. The offending murder rate for example has been at times 8x higher. This is largely due to the link between poverty and crime. It means that when you consider the proportions of the population significantly less white people are in those situations to begin with.

I don't think it is too controversial to say there is a bit more to it.

[lord bunberry]

There's also a big difference, in that social media has helped spread things more quickly. In 92, we relied on T.V.
Yes that’s undoubtedly the case. The fact that it’s spread so quickly in America and other countries is testament to that. Despite the small minority who are looting I think this is a much more positive movement than the Rodney King protests.

[Andy74]

I'd imagine that this time there has been a pandemic which has killed over 100,000 Americans and statistically the black people and minorities have been hit harder, there has been quarantine, 40m people out of work, Trump coming out with his bull**** statements, a man murdered in front of the world, it's all culminated into the perfect storm and people have had enough

Yep I'd agree with that on the reactions.

[JeMeSouviens]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c2tOp7OxyQ8

[matty_f]

I'm saying it is far more nuanced and there have been endless studies on this over the years without it being able to be blamed purely on racism.

I lived in the deep South so I absolutely get the issue - I don't need my mind changing as I know it is a factor and the US still has a problem with this.

I'm responding to people saying that white people would never have been treated that way and black people are just purely down to racism. That is clearly wrong as well. There is far more to it than that.

Reactions are always a strange thing Matty - why this one? It is a point in time, Trump and his reaction has a part to play. In terms of the actual facts of the crime I don't know what made this one different. There's also a reaction the lockdown in there too in the US.

I may have missed it but I don't think anyone said no white people have been treated that way. This one is just another straw on the camel's back. One that was so grotesque in its execution and one that is so symbolic of the relationship between black Americans and the police that anything other than the reaction it has provoked would have been unusual.

Trump is a racist and he is an enabler of other racists. When he points to good people on both sides, or not-so-subtly gives the nod to those who might want to kill black people to go ahead and do it, he reminds everyone just how deep rooted the racism is in America.

And that racism survives because of arguments that ignore the elephant in the room, the arguments that say it's just a coincidence that this guy was black and that it could have been a white guy, and it's just a coincidence that it's happened again to another black guy, or that the black guy maybe committed a crime, or might have been reaching for a weapon enable that racism and those racists to continue.

[speedy_gonzales]

The murderer who killed George Floyd had a KKK application is his house.


As I said, the officer who murdered George Floyd, sparking these riots, had an actual KKK application form in his house. Are you ignoring that?

This has been intimated on social media a couple of times now, is there actual evidence or genuine reports out there that confirm this?

I'm not suggesting an individual with desires to join the KKK have the highest of IQs, but surely after killing a black man in broad daylight you'd rid yourself of anything which could suggest it was a racially motivated action?

[Vault Boy]

This has been intimated on social media a couple of times now, is there actual evidence or genuine reports out there that confirm this?

I'm not suggesting an individual with desires to join the KKK have the highest of IQs, but surely after killing a black man in broad daylight you'd rid yourself of anything which could suggest it was a racially motivated action?

I'll retract that - it was in Independent, but the article is pertaining to another officer.

Other points still stand, KKK officers a pretty bad look etc.

[Ozyhibby]

I'd imagine that this time there has been a pandemic which has killed over 100,000 Americans and statistically the black people and minorities have been hit harder, there has been quarantine, 40m people out of work, Trump coming out with his bull**** statements, a man murdered in front of the world, it's all culminated into the perfect storm and people have had enough

Not to mention the glorious weather.


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[Andy74]

I may have missed it but I don't think anyone said no white people have been treated that way. This one is just another straw on the camel's back. One that was so grotesque in its execution and one that is so symbolic of the relationship between black Americans and the police that anything other than the reaction it has provoked would have been unusual.

Trump is a racist and he is an enabler of other racists. When he points to good people on both sides, or not-so-subtly gives the nod to those who might want to kill black people to go ahead and do it, he reminds everyone just how deep rooted the racism is in America.

And that racism survives because of arguments that ignore the elephant in the room, the arguments that say it's just a coincidence that this guy was black and that it could have been a white guy, and it's just a coincidence that it's happened again to another black guy, or that the black guy maybe committed a crime, or might have been reaching for a weapon enable that racism and those racists to continue.

I get that all, of course.

However, the statistics are that this isn't just happening because people are black and the police are racist.

To return to the stats v the population thing you need to look at why the interaction is happening in the first place. As I do actually read a bit :greengrin here is an explanation from a study that indicates what I was trying to say above:

According to U.S. Census estimates, African-American men make up only 6.6% of the population and African-American women make up roughly 6.7%. The 6.6% of the population versus 25% of those killed by the police comparison is often quoted. The police, however, are not supposed to use deadly force against the general population, only those who are threatening them (or others) with imminent serious violence. African-American men may make up 6.6% of the U.S. population, but they also account for 33% of those who have murdered police officers in the last three years. In other words, African-American men are 5 times more likely to kill a police officer, but only 3.7 times more likely to be killed by the police. The evidence suggests that the police do not disproportionately target African-American men for use of lethal force. The evidence suggests that the police are only responding to the rate of deadly force assaults they are experiencing.

That's one example - there are far more detailed and technical breakdowns of social economic conditions, rural v urban, diversity in police forces etc. The interesting thing is that diversity in the police force does very little to change the statistics.

The unfortunate reality, and this is what needs addressing through time, is that young black men are proportionally far more likely to be engaged in criminal activity due to their environment and therefore they are proportionally more involved in these situations than their general numbers in the population would suggest should be the case.

Of course there are racists out there particularly in the US but if this current movement is to ask for change in how the police are dealing with black men in particular it is not going to work as it does not appear to be the factor behind why it is happening.

The focus should be on real change in the economic conditions and the opprtunities provided to black communities. That's where the inequalities are, not in the way people are being treated by police, in the main.

[matty_f]

I get that all, of course.

However, the statistics are that this isn't just happening because people are black and the police are racist.

To return to the stats v the population thing you need to look at why the interaction is happening in the first place. As I do actually read a bit :greengrin here is an explanation from a study that indicates what I was trying to say above:

According to U.S. Census estimates, African-American men make up only 6.6% of the population and African-American women make up roughly 6.7%. The 6.6% of the population versus 25% of those killed by the police comparison is often quoted. The police, however, are not supposed to use deadly force against the general population, only those who are threatening them (or others) with imminent serious violence. African-American men may make up 6.6% of the U.S. population, but they also account for 33% of those who have murdered police officers in the last three years. In other words, African-American men are 5 times more likely to kill a police officer, but only 3.7 times more likely to be killed by the police. The evidence suggests that the police do not disproportionately target African-American men for use of lethal force. The evidence suggests that the police are only responding to the rate of deadly force assaults they are experiencing.

That's one example - there are far more detailed and technical breakdowns of social economic conditions, rural v urban, diversity in police forces etc. The interesting thing is that diversity in the police force does very little to change the statistics.

The unfortunate reality, and this is what needs addressing through time, is that young black men are proportionally far more likely to be engaged in criminal activity due to their environment and therefore they are proportionally more involved in these situations than their general numbers in the population would suggest should be the case.

Of course there are racists out there particularly in the US but if this current movement is to ask for change in how the police are dealing with black men in particular it is not going to work as it does not appear to be the factor behind why it is happening.

The focus should be on real change in the economic conditions and the opprtunities provided to black communities. That's where the inequalities are, not in the way people are being treated by police, in the main.

Andy, that describes racism - police treating all black people differently because of the actions of some black people.

[CapitalGreen]

I get that all, of course.

However, the statistics are that this isn't just happening because people are black and the police are racist.

To return to the stats v the population thing you need to look at why the interaction is happening in the first place. As I do actually read a bit :greengrin here is an explanation from a study that indicates what I was trying to say above:

According to U.S. Census estimates, African-American men make up only 6.6% of the population and African-American women make up roughly 6.7%. The 6.6% of the population versus 25% of those killed by the police comparison is often quoted. The police, however, are not supposed to use deadly force against the general population, only those who are threatening them (or others) with imminent serious violence. African-American men may make up 6.6% of the U.S. population, but they also account for 33% of those who have murdered police officers in the last three years. In other words, African-American men are 5 times more likely to kill a police officer, but only 3.7 times more likely to be killed by the police. The evidence suggests that the police do not disproportionately target African-American men for use of lethal force. The evidence suggests that the police are only responding to the rate of deadly force assaults they are experiencing.

That's one example - there are far more detailed and technical breakdowns of social economic conditions, rural v urban, diversity in police forces etc. The interesting thing is that diversity in the police force does very little to change the statistics.

The unfortunate reality, and this is what needs addressing through time, is that young black men are proportionally far more likely to be engaged in criminal activity due to their environment and therefore they are proportionally more involved in these situations than their general numbers in the population would suggest should be the case.

Of course there are racists out there particularly in the US but if this current movement is to ask for change in how the police are dealing with black men in particular it is not going to work as it does not appear to be the factor behind why it is happening.

The focus should be on real change in the economic conditions and the opprtunities provided to black communities. That's where the inequalities are, not in the way people are being treated by police, in the main.

Maybe it’s just my reading of them but I find your presentation of the stats confusing.

“African-American men are 5 times more likely to kill a police officer”
- 5.5 times more likely than who?

What are the percentages of those killed by Police who are NOT threatening them (or others) with imminent serious violence?

[Sir David Gray]

I get that all, of course.

However, the statistics are that this isn't just happening because people are black and the police are racist.

To return to the stats v the population thing you need to look at why the interaction is happening in the first place. As I do actually read a bit :greengrin here is an explanation from a study that indicates what I was trying to say above:

According to U.S. Census estimates, African-American men make up only 6.6% of the population and African-American women make up roughly 6.7%. The 6.6% of the population versus 25% of those killed by the police comparison is often quoted. The police, however, are not supposed to use deadly force against the general population, only those who are threatening them (or others) with imminent serious violence. African-American men may make up 6.6% of the U.S. population, but they also account for 33% of those who have murdered police officers in the last three years. In other words, African-American men are 5 times more likely to kill a police officer, but only 3.7 times more likely to be killed by the police. The evidence suggests that the police do not disproportionately target African-American men for use of lethal force. The evidence suggests that the police are only responding to the rate of deadly force assaults they are experiencing.

That's one example - there are far more detailed and technical breakdowns of social economic conditions, rural v urban, diversity in police forces etc. The interesting thing is that diversity in the police force does very little to change the statistics.

The unfortunate reality, and this is what needs addressing through time, is that young black men are proportionally far more likely to be engaged in criminal activity due to their environment and therefore they are proportionally more involved in these situations than their general numbers in the population would suggest should be the case.

Of course there are racists out there particularly in the US but if this current movement is to ask for change in how the police are dealing with black men in particular it is not going to work as it does not appear to be the factor behind why it is happening.

The focus should be on real change in the economic conditions and the opprtunities provided to black communities. That's where the inequalities are, not in the way people are being treated by police, in the main.

I was thinking about this earlier so it's an interesting point you have raised. When looking at the number of black people in America who are killed at the hands of the police, I don't think you can necessarily draw too many conclusions about how disproportionate the figures are without also looking at what the percentage of all violent crime is committed by African Americans in the first place.

Making up the numbers here but if 25% of people killed by the police come from an ethnic group that makes up just 8% of the population, is it disproportionate if that same group commits 30% of all violent crime?

Yes it points to other inequalities and injustices and those are things that absolutely need to be addressed but if the police are being threatened by violence by people from one particular ethnic group more than they are by any other, then it does make sense that this group will have a higher than average death rate at the hands of the police.

That is in no way excusing what happened with George Floyd by the way. What happened to him was horrific and indefensible.

I would be interested to read into this a bit more to back up these stats. Clearly this is a very emotive subject and some of the scenes over the last few days have been really hard to watch. So sad to see division like that in the USA.

[Kato]

Although twice as many white people in the US die at the hands of the police than black people.

It points to a system based on aggression, violence and the inherent fear and reactions that guns bring rather than necessarily being aimed at race.

It is an extremely difficult subject, obviously, and there is a huge weight of history there but I'm not sure how it gets better when any situation against black person is taken as being based on racism.

There was an article on the BBC earlier about a Radio 1 DJ who said they couldn't go to work following it because the death had affected them so much and that it showed that whilst we want black culture we don't want black people. If you are going to extrapolate that from some idiot cops being aggressive to someone then I don't know the way out. Would they have treated a white person the same way? The stats show that they probably would.

There was another decent commentary on a website today, don't recall where, where it highlighted that white people in the US tend to compartmentalise crimes against white people to the situation. They can because there isn't a history there other than the incident itself. Black people have more tendency to make it about the whole thing. It is absolutely understandable but history can't be changed so until you stop crime I don't know how it will stop being taken as a race issue every time.

No offence mate but that comes over as a dry, cold stats based overview of a situation that is emotional, fearful and which puts actual people through the wringer every single day. It doesn't matter which particular individual incident is based on racism or not or who perceives who as what. It's just there and has been for years.

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[Kato]

The numbers aren't proportionate though Andy. More white people die via the police because they make up the overwhelming majority of the population, those figures raise their own questions about police violence,

.

I'm willing to bet most of those white people killed in police custody are dirt poor and have been dealt the ****ty end of the stick in life.



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[lapsedhibee]

No, you're just praising a bad guy who's an absolute tool.

Think it's quite wrong to describe the President of the USA as an absolute tool. That kind of implies that he couldn't be any more of a tool than he already is. But he hasn't so far suggested bleach as a remedy for being black.

[Hiber-nation]

Think it's quite wrong to describe the President of the USA as an absolute tool. That kind of implies that he couldn't be any more of a tool than he already is. But he hasn't so far suggested bleach as a remedy for being black.

Come on, give him time!

[hibsbollah]

Again, no evidence of any criminal activity in D.C. today aside of breaking curfew, but the police wade in with baton charges and pepper spray anyway. Tv crews threatened.

..and in Seattle and Portland now too, same story. All the violence coming from one direction.

[Hibrandenburg]

Andy, that describes racism - police treating all black people differently because of the actions of some black people.

:agree:

[Andy74]

Andy, that describes racism - police treating all black people differently because of the actions of some black people.

It isn’t about treatment it is volume. Just to be blunt about it.

More black people are in contact with police in these situations and therefore the overall population stats aren’t really applicable.

A bigger percentage of black people are engaged in the activity that puts them in the situation.

[Hibrandenburg]

It isn’t about treatment it is volume. Just to be blunt about it.

More black people are in contact with police in these situations and therefore the overall population stats aren’t really applicable.

A bigger percentage of black people are engaged in the activity that puts them in the situation.

That may be the case, I couldn't possibly comment. But if the result of that is that every black man is automatically considered to be suspicious by some police officers because of that, then that is by definition racism.

[calumhibee1]

That may be the case, I couldn't possibly comment. But if the result of that is that every black man is automatically considered to be suspicious by some police officers because of that, then that is by definition racism.

It is a difficult thing to stop though. In a way it’s human nature.

Teenagers cause more trouble proportionately than adults. People are suspicious of groups of teenagers yet not every teenager is bad. I know I am.

Football fans cause more trouble than the general population proportionately and as such they’re met with stricter restrictions/heavier policing then the general population yet not all football fans are bad.

Without knowing for certain, I’d imagine the same could be said for males over females and no doubt other ‘groups’ as well.

I’m not saying it justifies what’s happening to black people btw. But if one ‘group’ of people pose such a significantly higher threat to you (as Andy74s stats suggest black people do to police in USA) then it must be difficult to not be a bit more suspicious of that whole group than a group that poses a significantly lower threat.

[hibsbollah]

It isn’t about treatment it is volume. Just to be blunt about it.

More black people are in contact with police in these situations and therefore the overall population stats aren’t really applicable.

A bigger percentage of black people are engaged in the activity that puts them in the situation.

It is unquestionably, about different treatment not volume. The stats you refer to do not disprove the complaints of the black population that they are disproportionately targeted, and more aggressively targeted than they would be if they were white. It also does not disprove the clear evidence that consecutive policies have criminalised whole communities.

[CapitalGreen]

Are you able to clarify on the below Andy74?


Maybe it’s just my reading of them but I find your presentation of the stats confusing.

“African-American men are 5 times more likely to kill a police officer”
- 5.5 times more likely than who?

What are the percentages of those killed by Police who are NOT threatening them (or others) with imminent serious violence?

[hibsbollah]

It is a difficult thing to stop though. In a way it’s human nature.

Teenagers cause more trouble proportionately than adults. People are suspicious of groups of teenagers yet not every teenager is bad. I know I am.

Football fans cause more trouble than the general population proportionately and as such they’re met with stricter restrictions/heavier policing then the general population yet not all football fans are bad.

Without knowing for certain, I’d imagine the same could be said for males over females and no doubt other ‘groups’ as well.

I’m not saying it justifies what’s happening to black people btw. But if one ‘group’ of people pose such a significantly higher threat to you (as Andy74s stats suggest black people do to police in USA) then it must be difficult to not be a bit more suspicious of that whole group than a group that poses a significantly lower threat.

I don’t think there would be significant unrest going on if cops were merely ‘a bit more suspicious’ of the black community. Many people would think that was perfectly understandable. It’s more things like the 9 minute murder by asphyxiation and shooting people dead in their cars pulled over for minor traffic infringements that’s the issue at play.

[Andy74]

I don’t think there would be significant unrest going on if cops were merely ‘a bit more suspicious’ of the black community. Many people would think that was perfectly understandable. It’s more things like the 9 minute murder by asphyxiation and shooting people dead in their cars pulled over for minor traffic infringements that’s the issue at play.

That's right - and the question at hand is whether this is happening exclusively because people are black and the police in question have targeted them purely for this reason, or is there something else going on?

That's why it is relevant to look at whether it also happens to other groups such as white people or Hispanics, which it does, and at what sort of rates. As I said above you can't just split this by population percentages and compare because that ignores the fact that ordinarily the police are not just out and about looking for people to kill.

Unfortunately, for lots of reasons, there are proportionally more young black males in situations which lead to death at the hands of the police than there are young white males.

If you are going at this from the point of view that it is only because police go out to target young black males then you aren't going to solve the problem.

[Berwickhibby]

I will chuck in an extra which appears to being bypassed "the easy access to firearms and ammunition" in the US

[calumhibee1]

That's right - and the question at hand is whether this is happening exclusively because people are black and the police in question have targeted them purely for this reason, or is there something else going on?

That's why it is relevant to look at whether it also happens to other groups such as white people or Hispanics, which it does, and at what sort of rates. As I said above you can't just split this by population percentages and compare because that ignores the fact that ordinarily the police are not just out and about looking for people to kill.

Unfortunately, for lots of reasons, there are proportionally more young black males in situations which lead to death at the hands of the police than there are young white males.

If you are going at this from the point of view that it is only because police go out to target young black males then you aren't going to solve the problem.

:agree:

[hibsbollah]

That's right - and the question at hand is whether this is happening exclusively because people are black and the police in question have targeted them purely for this reason, or is there something else going on?

That's why it is relevant to look at whether it also happens to other groups such as white people or Hispanics, which it does, and at what sort of rates. As I said above you can't just split this by population percentages and compare because that ignores the fact that ordinarily the police are not just out and about looking for people to kill.

Unfortunately, for lots of reasons, there are proportionally more young black males in situations which lead to death at the hands of the police than there are young white males.

If you are going at this from the point of view that it is only because police go out to target young black males then you aren't going to solve the problem.

I don’t think you HAVE provided stats to show that, unless I’ve missed it.

I understand that criminology stats can be read different ways. But I’m not sure what you’re actually saying; do you disbelieve that black people are widely targeted for extrajudicial killings because of their race? Do you think that class or income is more of a factor? Do you have the stats do back this up? And crucially from a political perspective, can you make this case to the black population without being accused of whitesplaining to black people that what they are experiencing isn’t really racism? Because that’s not going to go down very well. I think we have enough anecdotal and historical evidence going back to JimCrow era that there the police are a fertile breeding ground for racist attitudes. It would be strange if that wasn’t the case, especially in the South.

[CapitalGreen]

If you are going at this from the point of view that it is only because police go out to target young black males then you aren't going to solve the problem.

Has anyone here actually expressed this point of view? It seems very much like another straw man argument.

Are you able to clarify on the stats you provided previously?


Maybe it’s just my reading of them but I find your presentation of the stats confusing.

“African-American men are 5 times more likely to kill a police officer”
- 5.5 times more likely than who?

What are the percentages of those killed by Police who are NOT threatening them (or others) with imminent serious violence?

[Andy74]

Has anyone here actually expressed this point of view? It seems very much like another straw man argument.

Are you able to clarify on the stats you provided previously?

Yes, people have expressed that view on this thread - I'm just saying there's a bit more to it and that the various crime statistics including deaths at the hands of police, show a different angle rather than thinking that each death of a black person is because they were targeted by a racist cop.

The stats there weren't mine - just from a study. I think what they are saying is that whilst black males make up 6% of the population, 33% of police killings are carried out by black males.

It's just a perspective that you can't just look at the population stats to tell you what's happening. In the same way that saying twice as many white people are killed by police than black people it doesn't mean much when they are a much lower representation in the population. You are something like 3.6 times more likely to be killed by police as a young black man but by the same token black males are 5 times more likely to be involved in killing a cop.

So this does happen to white people, to hispanic people but less proportionally because unfortunately young black men are more likely to be involved in activity where these situations arise.

There's all sorts of other studies of course about impact of racial profiling, stop and search, inherent biases etc but that al comes out in the statistics of who actually ends up being killed at the hands of the police.

[neil7908]

Yes, people have expressed that view on this thread - I'm just saying there's a bit more to it and that the various crime statistics including deaths at the hands of police, show a different angle rather than thinking that each death of a black person is because they were targeted by a racist cop.

The stats there weren't mine - just from a study. I think what they are saying is that whilst black males make up 6% of the population, 33% of police killings are carried out by black males.

It's just a perspective that you can't just look at the population stats to tell you what's happening. In the same way that saying twice as many white people are killed by police than black people it doesn't mean much when they are a much lower representation in the population. You are something like 3.6 times more likely to be killed by police as a young black man but by the same token black males are 5 times more likely to be involved in killing a cop.

So this does happen to white people, to hispanic people but less proportionally because unfortunately young black men are more likely to be involved in activity where these situations arise.

There's all sorts of other studies of course about impact of racial profiling, stop and search, inherent biases etc but that al comes out in the statistics of who actually ends up being killed at the hands of the police.

I think there are a few issues at play here - race, lack of accountability and guns. American police are in my opinion often institutionally racist and also unaccountable. These police killings shouldn't be happening in the first place but crucially when they do the cops close ranks and defend their own unless there is overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing. Even when they prosecutions happen convictions are rare and fair sentences even rarer.

However, the one thing I've seen no mention of in this whole thing is guns. This is the one area I have some sympathy for the police in America as every encounter they have is against the background of the person they are speaking with pulling a gun from their pocket and shooting them, or when the go into a house they can be met with a military grade assault rifle or shotgun.

The stakes are just that much higher for every encounter and that impacts their psyche and attitude to policing. Obviously George Floyd was not shot and did not have a gun and I'm in no way excusing what happened to him but the whole policing atmosphere is the US has turned to outright hostility and fear on the both sides and guns play a huge part in that.

We have plenty of racism in the UK, including in our institutions like the police but we aren't militarised so the danger drops for both the public and police, allowing room for dialogue.

Incidents like Jean Charles De Menezes show we have these issues with accountability and racism in the UK police but they rarely result in deaths as the dangers are low. But incidents like that would be repeated many times over in the UK if the police and population had the same access to firearms as in the US.

[Pretty Boy]

The below is an interesting take on why there is more to acknowledging white privilege than just 'not being racist':

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR2AnPODo9Db5EfdIRnzaNdbHM6rC9wczOW0vj2C 0VT9ZotyA2obWtFlTI4

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/baldilocks__/status/1266055148788494336?s=21


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[Slavers]

The below is an interesting take on why there is more to acknowledging white privilege than just 'not being racist':

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR2AnPODo9Db5EfdIRnzaNdbHM6rC9wczOW0vj2C 0VT9ZotyA2obWtFlTI4

Jordan Peterson has debunked the term white priviledge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfH8IG7Awk0

[Berwickhibby]

The below is an interesting take on why there is more to acknowledging white privilege than just 'not being racist':

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR2AnPODo9Db5EfdIRnzaNdbHM6rC9wczOW0vj2C 0VT9ZotyA2obWtFlTI4

Growing up in Muirhouse in the 60/70s as part of a one parent family .... I must have missed out on my white privilege

[CapitalGreen]

Jordan Peterson has debunked the term white priviledge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfH8IG7Awk0

What’s your opinion on it?

[Slavers]

Growing up in Muirhouse in the 60/70s as part of a one parent family .... I must have missed out on my white privilege

Asians typically out perform whites in many area's of education, business & wealth, do you ever hear the term asian privilege? No you don't.

As Jordan Peterson as stated the term white privilege is a racist term.

[Slavers]

What’s your opinion on it?

The term white privilege is racist.

[CapitalGreen]

Asians typically out perform whites in many area's of education, business & wealth, do you ever hear the term asian privilege? No you don't.

As Jordan Peterson as stated the term white privilege is a racist term.

In your opinion why is it a racist term?

[Slavers]

In your opinion why is it a racist term?

It singles out one race as having privilege when it's not true, it sows seeds of resentment towards white people when it's based on a myth.

[CapitalGreen]

It singles out one race as having privilege when it's not true, it sows seeds of resentment towards white people when it's based on a myth.

As a white person and from my own experience I believe it to be true. Prove me wrong.

[neil7908]

Asians typically out perform whites in many area's of education, business & wealth, do you ever hear the term asian privilege? No you don't.

As Jordan Peterson as stated the term white privilege is a racist term.

Old, rich white man tells us there is no white privilege - huge surprise.

[Pretty Boy]

Growing up in Muirhouse in the 60/70s as part of a one parent family .... I must have missed out on my white privilege

But you are aware of the concept of being singled out because of an aspect of your identity clearly. I heard the term 'schemie' used perjoratively when I grew up as well.

White privilege is someone from Barnton judging someone from Muirhouse on a global scale.

[hibsbollah]

As a white person and from my own experience I believe it to be true. Prove me wrong.

You are aware of his post history, I assume? You’ll be wasting your time.

White privilege doesn’t mean what Slavers says it means, obviously. The colour of our skin does not impact on our lives, the same way as a black persons skin colour does. In a nutshell.

[McD]

Yes, people have expressed that view on this thread - I'm just saying there's a bit more to it and that the various crime statistics including deaths at the hands of police, show a different angle rather than thinking that each death of a black person is because they were targeted by a racist cop.

The stats there weren't mine - just from a study. I think what they are saying is that whilst black males make up 6% of the population, 33% of police killings are carried out by black males.

It's just a perspective that you can't just look at the population stats to tell you what's happening. In the same way that saying twice as many white people are killed by police than black people it doesn't mean much when they are a much lower representation in the population. You are something like 3.6 times more likely to be killed by police as a young black man but by the same token black males are 5 times more likely to be involved in killing a cop.

So this does happen to white people, to hispanic people but less proportionally because unfortunately young black men are more likely to be involved in activity where these situations arise.

There's all sorts of other studies of course about impact of racial profiling, stop and search, inherent biases etc but that al comes out in the statistics of who actually ends up being killed at the hands of the police.


I don't think that American police go out to find black people to kill, or even assault (broadly speaking).

I do think that black people, particularly young men, are automatically deemed to be more suspicious, regardless of where they are and what they're doing. For example, 3-4 young black men walking down a street in a reasonably affluent area are far more likely to be stopped and questioned by police than 3-4 young white men. Whether or not young black men are statistically more likely to be involved in criminal activity, that is inherently racist. The same is likely to happen if its not as affluent an area. American police appear to work on the basic premise that young black men are likely to be partaking in criminal activities, even if there is no evidence to warrant that assumption in any given scenario. Whether they are more likely statistically to be doing so doesn't matter. Its racial profiling to work on that assumption and stop individuals without probable cause just because they are black.

You sometimes hear American police forces talking about the broken windows principle (certainly on tv shows). It has a logic to it, until is disproportionately directed at one section of society, which is part of the problem here.

It would be really interesting to understand what proportion of police vs black individual violence actually begins by the police stopping/pulling over/harassing an otherwise innocent and not-engaging-in-crime black person. That does not mean I would condone someone shooting a police officer just because they were stopped by them, however situations can and do escalate, especially if the civilian feels harassed and abused, and reacts, causing the police officer to escalate their response. And none of that factors in police officers who are overtly/consciously racist and do expect black individuals to be breaking the law and focus much more on black people.


American culture is (again broadly speaking) inherently racist. Punishment for laws being broken is distinctly different for minorities compared to white people. The NFL has a huge proportion of its players from black communities, yet at the coaching, front office and ownership levels, black people are few and far between. They even have a rule (currently being reviewed for enhancements) to encourage teams to interview black professionals for coaching roles. How racist do you have to be that you have to incentivise them to be open to employing black coaches? And then you add in Colin Kaepernick, who was and is vilified and ostracised for peacefully protesting violence towards black people.

There's a terribly sad irony that the same people who abused CK for his peaceful protests are now angry that people have went to another level of protest. Perhaps by listening to what a principled man had to say, we might have seen some small changes to American society and possibly avoided this kind of thing. When Obama took office, it felt like a massive step in a positive direction, seeing a black man as president, right now it feels like its went back at least 30 years.


I feel like I've typed more here than I initially intended to, but its such an emotive topic and one that is quite alien to me (in that I was never brought up in a way to view others as anything other than a person and I cannot comprehend considering another human being as beneath me in any way), although has been pointed out on this thread, I am also aware that being a white man in a western society places me in a position where I have not and most likely never will experience what many black people do.

[Berwickhibby]

But you are aware of the concept of being singled out because of an aspect of your identity clearly. I heard the term 'schemie' used perjoratively when I grew up as well.

White privilege is someone from Barnton judging someone from Muirhouse on a global scale.

I understand the concept, I object to the term. It suggests I was born into a life of privilege as both my parents were white Scottish.

[Since90+2]

It singles out one race as having privilege when it's not true, it sows seeds of resentment towards white people when it's based on a myth.

I do find it an odd term, especially in Britain.

White people from underprivileged areas in the UK are amongst the least privileged in our society.

[Vault Boy]

Old, rich white man tells us there is no white privilege - huge surprise.

Ahaha exactly. Not sure why anyone takes seriously what that Kermit the Frog-sounding, blowhard psychologist thinks about anything other than his own academic field. He's only popular for those 'owning the libs, extra cringe edition' style interviews.

Claiming he's debunked all of white privilege on his own is a new level of blind support though.

[Pretty Boy]

I understand the concept, I object to the term. It suggests I was born into a life of privilege as both my parents were white Scottish.

It's not about the individual and every individual circumstance.

At a systematic level black people are more likely to be judged or treated differently because of the colour of their skin. White people aren't.

[McD]

It's not about the individual and every individual circumstance.

At a systematic level black people are more likely to be judged or treated differently because of the colour of their skin. White people aren't.


Exactly :agree:

[Berwickhibby]

It's not about the individual and every individual circumstance.

At a systematic level black people are more likely to be judged or treated differently because of the colour of their skin. White people aren't.

More likely by who?.... especially here in the UK

[Kato]

It suggests I was born into a life of privilege as both my parents were white Scottish.

If you think the term means that then you are not understanding it.

[Berwickhibby]

If you think the term means that then you are not understanding it.

Then I don't get it...... the term privilege obviously means something completely different to me than you

[Kato]

Then I don't get it...... the term privilege obviously means something completely different to me than you

Did you take the time to read the article posted by Pretty Boy above?

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR2AnPODo9Db5EfdIRnzaNdbHM6rC9wczOW0vj2C 0VT9ZotyA2obWtFlTI4

[Pretty Boy]

More likely by who?.... especially here in the UK

Other people. Be that authority figures or friends.

[Vault Boy]

More likely by who?.... especially here in the UK

'Here in the UK' black men are 6 times more likely to be stopped and searched. So the police, for one.

[Berwickhibby]

Did you take the time to read the article posted by Pretty Boy above?

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR2AnPODo9Db5EfdIRnzaNdbHM6rC9wczOW0vj2C 0VT9ZotyA2obWtFlTI4

I did....I don't agree with the term

[matty_f]

The below is an interesting take on why there is more to acknowledging white privilege than just 'not being racist':

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR2AnPODo9Db5EfdIRnzaNdbHM6rC9wczOW0vj2C 0VT9ZotyA2obWtFlTI4
That's a really good read.

[Andy74]

I don't think that American police go out to find black people to kill, or even assault (broadly speaking).

I do think that black people, particularly young men, are automatically deemed to be more suspicious, regardless of where they are and what they're doing. For example, 3-4 young black men walking down a street in a reasonably affluent area are far more likely to be stopped and questioned by police than 3-4 young white men. Whether or not young black men are statistically more likely to be involved in criminal activity, that is inherently racist. The same is likely to happen if its not as affluent an area. American police appear to work on the basic premise that young black men are likely to be partaking in criminal activities, even if there is no evidence to warrant that assumption in any given scenario. Whether they are more likely statistically to be doing so doesn't matter. Its racial profiling to work on that assumption and stop individuals without probable cause just because they are black.

You sometimes hear American police forces talking about the broken windows principle (certainly on tv shows). It has a logic to it, until is disproportionately directed at one section of society, which is part of the problem here.

It would be really interesting to understand what proportion of police vs black individual violence actually begins by the police stopping/pulling over/harassing an otherwise innocent and not-engaging-in-crime black person. That does not mean I would condone someone shooting a police officer just because they were stopped by them, however situations can and do escalate, especially if the civilian feels harassed and abused, and reacts, causing the police officer to escalate their response. And none of that factors in police officers who are overtly/consciously racist and do expect black individuals to be breaking the law and focus much more on black people.


American culture is (again broadly speaking) inherently racist. Punishment for laws being broken is distinctly different for minorities compared to white people. The NFL has a huge proportion of its players from black communities, yet at the coaching, front office and ownership levels, black people are few and far between. They even have a rule (currently being reviewed for enhancements) to encourage teams to interview black professionals for coaching roles. How racist do you have to be that you have to incentivise them to be open to employing black coaches? And then you add in Colin Kaepernick, who was and is vilified and ostracised for peacefully protesting violence towards black people.

There's a terribly sad irony that the same people who abused CK for his peaceful protests are now angry that people have went to another level of protest. Perhaps by listening to what a principled man had to say, we might have seen some small changes to American society and possibly avoided this kind of thing. When Obama took office, it felt like a massive step in a positive direction, seeing a black man as president, right now it feels like its went back at least 30 years.


I feel like I've typed more here than I initially intended to, but its such an emotive topic and one that is quite alien to me (in that I was never brought up in a way to view others as anything other than a person and I cannot comprehend considering another human being as beneath me in any way), although has been pointed out on this thread, I am also aware that being a white man in a western society places me in a position where I have not and most likely never will experience what many black people do.

Excellent post.

[Berwickhibby]

'Here in the UK' black men are 6 times more likely to be stopped and searched. So the police, for one.

You do realise that there has to be grounds for a police officer to conduct a search, most searches are Section 32 PACE conducted after arrest. Officers get sacked for conducting unlawful searches. I accept that Section 1 searches have increased due the increase of knives, however the bottom line is there must be grounds.

[Kato]

I did....I don't agree with the termWhat wording would you suggest to describe the phenomenon?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

[Berwickhibby]

What wording would you suggest to describe the phenomenon?

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk

No idea...... someone might think of something better.

[matty_f]

Jordan Peterson has debunked the term white priviledge.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfH8IG7Awk0

No he hasn't, he's given an opinion on it, and it's really flawed.

[CapitalGreen]

No idea...... someone might think of something better.

So you agree that it exists but you just don’t link the name attributed to it?

[Bristolhibby]

I do find it an odd term, especially in Britain.

White people from underprivileged areas in the UK are amongst the least privileged in our society.

I think the argument is they are more privileged than a black man from the same area. Ratchet that up a notch, a black woman. Sexism, the other issue.

Being a white man, I have no idea what a black woman goes through, from micro to overt racism.

J

[Bristolhibby]

Did you take the time to read the article posted by Pretty Boy above?

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR2AnPODo9Db5EfdIRnzaNdbHM6rC9wczOW0vj2C 0VT9ZotyA2obWtFlTI4

Was going to post the whole article here as I assumed people wouldn’t read it.

An excellent article that gets to the heart of White Privilege.

J

[Pretty Boy]

The below test is not without it's flaws but it's an interesting excercise.

I think we often associate racism with being a conscious act; 'I just try to treat everyone the same'. It's quite interesting to look at it at an instinctive level.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

[wpj]

I’ll get the tinfoil

Dude, I'm making a tinfoil suit and helmet after reading some of the things on here!

[Andy74]

Did you take the time to read the article posted by Pretty Boy above?

https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2017/09/08/my-white-friend-asked-me-on-facebook-to-explain-white-privilege-i-decided-to-be-honest/?fbclid=IwAR2AnPODo9Db5EfdIRnzaNdbHM6rC9wczOW0vj2C 0VT9ZotyA2obWtFlTI4

I don't think it is the best article or examples to be honest.

It certainly illustrates that racism exists but it doesn't really indicate why white people are instead privileged. Perhaps in the sense that they don't have to put up with racism but the term implies that they actually have a
privilege as a result.

I suspect a ginger haired spectacle wearing single parent kid from Pilton would have a hard time accepting that he had privilege over this lady who had a pool in the garden, went to Harvard, wrote for TV etc.

I get the thinking behind the term but the implication mens the word will not be well understood in the context.

[Berwickhibby]

I don't think it is the best article or examples to be honest.

It certainly illustrates that racism exists but it doesn't really indicate why white people are instead privileged. Perhaps in the sense that they don't have to put up with racism but the term implies that they have actually privilege as a result.

I suspect a ginger haired spectacle wearing single parent kid from Pilton would have a hard time accepting that he had privilege over this lady who had a pool in the garden, went to Harvard, wrote for TV etc.

I get the thinking behind the term but the implication mens the word will not be well understood in the context.

Nail on the head....great post

[JeMeSouviens]

I don't think it is the best article or examples to be honest.

It certainly illustrates that racism exists but it doesn't really indicate why white people are instead privileged. Perhaps in the sense that they don't have to put up with racism but the term implies that they have actually privilege as a result.

I suspect a ginger haired spectacle wearing single parent kid from Pilton would have a hard time accepting that he had privilege over this lady who had a pool in the garden, went to Harvard, wrote for TV etc.

I get the thinking behind the term but the implication mens the word will not be well understood in the context.

I thought it was spot on and well illustrated. The point is not that random white person A has more advantages in life than random black person B, it's that all other things being equal, the white person has the privilege of not having to put up with racial discrimination.

[calumhibee1]

I don't think it is the best article or examples to be honest.

It certainly illustrates that racism exists but it doesn't really indicate why white people are instead privileged. Perhaps in the sense that they don't have to put up with racism but the term implies that they have actually privilege as a result.

I suspect a ginger haired spectacle wearing single parent kid from Pilton would have a hard time accepting that he had privilege over this lady who had a pool in the garden, went to Harvard, wrote for TV etc.

I get the thinking behind the term but the implication mens the word will not be well understood in the context.

Said ginger haired specky kid would also no doubt have found himself followed round a shop by security, moved on by police while hanging about the streets, knocked back at the door or pubs etc.

I get the general concept behind white privilege but it’s hard to agree with when it doesn’t apply to every white person and then just becomes another racial stereotype.

[Vault Boy]

You do realise that there has to be grounds for a police officer to conduct a search, most searches are Section 32 PACE conducted after arrest. Officers get sacked for conducting unlawful searches. I accept that Section 1 searches have increased due the increase of knives, however the bottom line is there must be grounds.

So what are the grounds for BAME folk being stopped at such a disproportionate rate, some data showing as much as 9 times more likely than whites, despite them not actually being more prevalent in the use of drugs, for example? Black people are so clearly unfairly targeted by officers due to longstanding stereotyping.

[Andy74]

I thought it was spot on and well illustrated. The point is not that random white person A has more advantages in life than random black person B, it's that all other things being equal, the white person has the privilege of not having to put up with racial discrimination.

They may have that specific privilege but the word implies quite a bit more than that which is why I don’t think it is a good use of the word.

Racism isn’t the only thing that negatively impacts people. It is one example of intolerance and one example of why someone might be bullied, beaten, denied opportunity etc.

I don’t think it is a helpful term to help get support or to get over a message that we should all be the same.

[JeMeSouviens]

Said ginger haired specky kid would also no doubt have found himself followed round a shop by security, moved on by police while hanging about the streets, knocked back at the door or pubs etc.

I get the general concept behind white privilege but it’s hard to agree with when it doesn’t apply to every white person and then just becomes another racial stereotype.

It does though, that's the point. If you could find 2 exact equivalents of the specky kid in terms of socio-economics etc. then the white kid has the privilege of not being subject to racism.

[Mon Dieu4]

So what are the grounds for BAME folk being stopped at such a disproportionate rate, some data showing as much as 9 times more likely than whites, despite them not actually being more prevalent in the use of drugs, for example? Black people are so clearly unfairly targeted by officers due to longstanding stereotyping.

This is where it gets messy, London for example, black on black murder sky rocketed last year and was completely out of control, as a result I'd imagine that lead to more stop and searches being carried out, but then that turns into racial profiling, how do you put a stop to it there and then? any long term approaches such as education etc will take a while to filter through

I genuinely don't know the answer to it all

[JeMeSouviens]

They may have that specific privilege but the word implies quite a bit more than that which is why I don’t think it is a good use of the word.

Racism isn’t the only thing that negatively impacts people. It is one example of intolerance and one example of why someone might be bullied, beaten, denied opportunity etc.

I don’t think it is a helpful term to help get support or to get over a message that we should all be the same.

I think you're conflating the noun "privilege" which implies a single advantage with the adjective "privileged" which may describe a person with multiple advantages.

Anyway, it's clear to me what "white privilege" means.

[Berwickhibby]

[QUOTE=Vault Boy;6192098]So what are the grounds for BAME folk being stopped at such a disproportionate rate, some data showing as much as 9 times more likely than whites, despite them not actually being more prevalent in the use of drugs, for example? Black people are so clearly unfairly targeted by officers due to longstanding stereotyping

You do realise the majority of stop and searches are responses to calls by the public to police reporting that a crime is/has been committed. Do you think at the beginning of a shift the officers go out hunting and harassing BAME people for the hell of it. With the wonderful Tory cuts an officer will spend the majority of his time responding to calls and appointments. From sudden deaths, traffic accidents, thefts, assaults, domestic abuse, drugs, alcohol, child protection issues, the list goes on and on....I suppose they could squeeze in some racial harassment..... searching requires grounds and bodycams protect the officer and suspect

[Vault Boy]

[QUOTE]

You do realise the majority of stop and searches are responses to calls by the public to police reporting that a crime is/has been committed. Do you think at the beginning of a shift the officers go out hunting and harassing BAME people for the hell of it. With the wonderful Tory cuts an officer will spend the majority of his time responding to calls and appointments. From sudden deaths, traffic accidents, thefts, assaults, domestic abuse, drugs, alcohol, child protection issues, the list goes on and on....I suppose they could squeeze in some racial harassment..... searching requires grounds and bodycams protect the officer and suspect

That seems to completely contradict the many, many accounts of innocent BAME individuals who have been stopped dozens of times despite having a clean record. Also still doesn't explain why BAME people are stopped 6-9 times more frequently despite not committing 6-9 times as many crimes.

I'm sure you were a fine police officer, but clearly there are more than a handful that aren't. I'd certainly rather be stopped here than the USA if I were black, though.

[Berwickhibby]

[QUOTE=Berwickhibby;6192132]

That seems to completely contradict the many, many accounts of innocent BAME individuals who have been stopped dozens of times despite having a clean record. Also still doesn't explain why BAME people are stopped 6-9 times more frequently despite not committing 6-9 times as many crimes.

I'm sure you were a fine police officer, but clearly there are more than a handful that aren't. I'd certainly rather be stopped here than the USA if I were black, though.

I don't care what the so called many accounts say, having policed the streets of London and rural Northumberland my experience says different. Police have to attend diversity training and any suggestion of racism is strongly dealt with from further training to criminal charges. Perhaps and this might come as a shock, but perhaps if the public stopped phoning the police about criminal activity of BAME then stop and search would cease.

[Kato]

, the white person has the privilege of not having to put up with racial discrimination.

Exactly. I dont know what there is to question or complain about the term.

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[silverhibee]

It does though, that's the point. If you could find 2 exact equivalents of the specky kid in terms of socio-economics etc. then the white kid has the privilege of not being subject to racism.

I'm just glad I never had specs growing up in Muirhouse, was still a tough gig being the ginger lad. :greengrin

[Berwickhibby]

I'm just glad I never had specs growing up in Muirhouse, was still a tough gig being the ginger lad. :greengrin

Are You a fellow Craigy Boy lol 😂

[wpj]

Quite convenient both officers failed to turn on their body cameras though. One of said officers also openly mocking protesters on social media and delighting in one of them being injured is quite an interesting note as well.

A lot of 'tragic incidents' seem to involve black people:

Tamir Rice - 12 year old, killed for playing with a toy.
Walter Scott - Had a broken light on his car
Freddie Gray - Died from severe spinal injuries, possessed a legal knife
Jamar Clark - Shot and killed when allegedly trying to reach for an officers service weapon. Independent witnesses state he was handcuffed at the time.
Stephon Clark - Unarmed. Shot and killed by Police investigating 'someone' breaking car windows.
Botham Jean - Shot and killed in his own apartment. Off duty police officer claimed she went to the wrong apartment and mistook him for a burglar

That's scratching the surface.......

Excellent post PB I lived in USA for a year in 1995, have never seen such a divided country. When in New Orleans on New Years Eve we (four white dudes) went into a black neighbourhood bar. After about a half hour drinking beer we got talking to the locals who said they had never had white guys in their bar. They were really happy to have Scottish, English, Mexican and a German. It was a wonderful New Year and the locals walked us to the taxis around 0200ish to get to where we needed to be, taxis were also segregated but we got a pass, good people are good people and we need to respect them all.

[Bristolhibby]

It does though, that's the point. If you could find 2 exact equivalents of the specky kid in terms of socio-economics etc. then the white kid has the privilege of not being subject to racism.

This. The White Privilege is not being subjected to racism. That privilege is not afforded to back people. Hence the “Privilege”.

We like to see how we (White male here, hello) are being treated as the baseline. A black persons baseline is lower. Therefore, we have a privilege.

J

[silverhibee]

Are You a fellow Craigy Boy lol 😂

Yip.

[Bristolhibby]

I lived in the States as a kid in Norfolk, Virginia and went to school there. My Mum told me a story that makes me laugh now. Turns out some kids were picking on me, it also turns out these boys were black. My Mum saw it as ‘black kids picking on her son’.

So she booked an appointment to have a chat with my teacher Mrs Johnson. She was going to say that black kids were picking on me, what’s going on? Doesn’t sound like I named any names, just they were black kids. My Mum goes to meet Mrs Johnson, it was at this point that she realised that I had not told her that my teacher was black.

My Mum ended up volunteering as a Parent helper out of embarrassment.

I got on fine in the end in my class.

Turns out most of the black kids were brought in from poorer neighbourhoods. My neighbourhood was pretty much exclusively white. Bizarrely there was a Black Baptist church at the end of our street. Great singing coming out of there on Sundays.

J

[Andy74]

This. The White Privilege is not being subjected to racism. That privilege is not afforded to back people. Hence the “Privilege”.

We like to see how we (White male here, hello) are being treated as the baseline. A black persons baseline is lower. Therefore, we have a privilege.

J

I get what it means but it is a poor choice of word due to the connotations which are not helpful to the debate at all.

[Mibbes Aye]

Andy74, you dug yourself into a hole defending RBS and saying you knew Ross McEwan and he would sort it all. Now you seem to be digging a deeper hole with the racism stuff.

Stop digging, for your own benefit.

[Slavers]

Are there privileges for other races or does it only apply to white people?

Is it down to geography? Like in the UK, USA & Europe the privilege is called white privilege because of the demographic?

In Africa is there black privilege?

Asia - Asian privilege? And so forth.

Plus in the UK, Europe and the USA there are areas / communities where white people are a minority - In what way does 'white privilege' put then in advantage living within those communities what advantages does being a white minority in BAME community bring? I know there can be racist attitudes towards white people within certain communities. Is there a BAME privilege within these areas?

Apologies to the higher intellects on here if this seems a stupid question but I need to get my head round the term.

There seems to me to be a lot of holes in the term while privilege.

[Mibbes Aye]

Are there privileges for other races or does it only apply to white people?

Is it down to geography? Like in the UK, USA & Europe the privilege is called white privilege because of the demographic?

In Africa is there black privilege?

Asia - Asian privilege? And so forth.

Plus in the UK, Europe and the USA there are areas / communities where white people are a minority - In what way does 'white privilege' put then in advantage living within those communities what advantages does being a white minority in BAME community bring? I know there can be racist attitudes towards white people within certain communities. Does there then become BAME privilege within these areas?

Apologies to the higher intellects on here if this seems a stupid question but I need to get my head round the term.

There seems to me to be a lot of holes in the term while privilege.

Yeah, just read up, I assume you can read, Plenty out there.

Then maybe come back :agree:

[Andy74]

Andy74, you dug yourself into a hole defending RBS and saying you knew Ross McEwan and he would sort it all. Now you seem to be digging a deeper hole with the racism stuff.

Stop digging, for your own benefit.

What a bizarre link to make. And yes, Ross did recently leave RBS with it turned around.

If you can’t really follow nuanced conversation then that’s fine but don’t tell me what discussions to be part of.

Everyone seems to be discussing this quite civilly so no need for your input.

[calumhibee1]

Yeah, just read up, I assume you can read, Plenty out there.

Then maybe come back :agree:

Or you could just answer the questions instead of acting a smart arse :confused:

[Mibbes Aye]

What a bizarre link to make. And yes, Ross did recently leave RBS with it turned around.

If you can’t really follow nuanced conversation then that’s fine but don’t tell me what discussions to be part of.

Everyone seems to be discussing this quite civilly so no need for your input.

I am not telling you what discussions to be part of, am I? And I can follow nuance and subtlety, thank you.

I was merely commenting on your comments, which seemed rather what we do on this board. I can understand if you are somewhat defensive. No wonder, given your posting history, no blame, just the way it is.

[Mibbes Aye]

Or you could just answer the questions instead of acting a smart arse :confused:

The post you are talking about is one of the worst I could imagine ever reading, I am preparing dinner for my children. Excuse me if I take a break to make that nice and then find a response to a reprehensible post, then possibly be asked to reply to a few, and I mean a few, folk who actually come on here to stoke stuff. You are visible in your views. I don’t agree with your views, as do others. We tolerate you because we are tolerant.

[calumhibee1]

The post you are talking about is one of the worst I could imagine ever reading, I am preparing dinner for my children. Excuse me if I take a break to make that nice and then find a response to a reprehensible post, then possibly be asked to reply to a few, and I mean I few, folk who actually come on here to stoke stuff. You are very visible. We tolerate you because we are tolerant.

That post is one of the worst posts you could ever imagine reading?

What a load of nonsense.

[matty_f]

That post is one of the worst posts you could ever imagine reading?

What a load of nonsense.

It's not far off it, particularly following the abhorrent YouTube clip that was posted by that poster.

[Mibbes Aye]

That post is one of the worst posts you could ever imagine reading?

What a load of nonsense.

I am sure that this has become a source of entertainment for anyone reading, and a source of sanguine for the admins.

I don’t know you, have no desire or reason to fall out with you.

No no doubt we will exchange posts on other threads and hopefully we will find something to agree on, or learn from disagreeing on.......

[Ozyhibby]

Trump’s defence secretary just said he was against using troops against Americans. Wonder if he will survive 24hours in the job now?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Slavers]

It's not far off it, particularly following the abhorrent YouTube clip that was posted by that poster.

It was a Jordan Peterson link was it not? His views are not abhorrent.

[degenerated]

Thought so. I’ve always found the idea of Luciferianism to be poorly understood by people, what’s your thoughts on it?That would be an ecumenical matter

Sent from my SM-G977B using Tapatalk

[Hibrandenburg]

Growing up in Muirhouse in the 60/70s as part of a one parent family .... I must have missed out on my white privilege

Not compatible.

[matty_f]

It was a Jordan Peterson link was it not? His views are not abhorrent.

That's a matter of opinion. Just because he can articulate himself well and construct an argument does not make his ideas any less abhorrent, depending on where your own moral compass is.

[Berwickhibby]

Before I bow out completely I will summarise my opinion

1. The killing of George Floyd was abhorrent and the officers involved need to face the full brunt of the law.

2. The riots and unlawful violence on innocent Americans is also abhorrent.

3. Protests are justified providing they remain peaceful

4. Trump is still a dick

5. The mass gatherings will spread Covid 19 and I expect a second wave.

6. I am not a raciest and don't like the expression white privlage

7. Boris is still a dick

8. Trump would love to deploy military on the street and become the dictator of his dreams.

9. Hopefully tomorrow we don't wake up to London in ruins and the copycat looters doing their early Christmas thieving.

Good night GGTTH :flag::flag:

[Sir David Gray]

Before I bow out completely I will summarise my opinion

1. The killing of George Floyd was abhorrent and the officers involved need to face the full brunt of the law.

2. The riots and unlawful violence on innocent Americans is also abhorrent.

3. Protests are justified providing they remain peaceful

4. Trump is still a dick

5. The mass gatherings will spread Covid 19 and I expect a second wave.

6. I am not a raciest and don't like the expression white privlage

7. Boris is still a dick

8. Trump would love to deploy military on the street and become the dictator of his dreams.

9. Hopefully tomorrow we don't wake up to London in ruins and the copycat looters doing their early Christmas thieving.

Good night GGTTH :flag::flag:

I agree with you.

[mcohibs]

It was a Jordan Peterson link was it not? His views are not abhorrent.

His views on same-sex parenting are pretty abhorrent tbh.

[silverhibee]

Starting to get a bit nasty in London, fights with police at a few spots now.

[CropleyWasGod]

I'd like to suggest that the debate as to whether white privilege (or male privilege, or straight privilege) exists is not open to debate by white, straight, males. People in those groups don't experience it, therefore it's easy to say it doesn't exist.

I'd prefer to trust in the experiences of those who are not in those groups, who tell me that it does exist.

[-Jonesy-]

I'd like to suggest that the debate as to whether white privilege (or male privilege, or straight privilege) exists is not open to debate by white, straight, males. People in those groups don't experience it, therefore it's easy to say it doesn't exist.

I'd prefer to trust in the experiences of those who are not in those groups, who tell me that it does exist.

Agreed, being white and saying white privilege doesn’t exist is the most privileged thing a white person can say.

[Pretty Boy]

I'd like to suggest that the debate as to whether white privilege (or male privilege, or straight privilege) exists is not open to debate by white, straight, males. People in those groups don't experience it, therefore it's easy to say it doesn't exist.

I'd prefer to trust in the experiences of those who are not in those groups, who tell me that it does exist.

I've made this point before albeit in a different context.

White males telling other people what they should and shouldn't be offended by or how they should feel about certain issues is so obviously an example of the belief in a privilege, whether that is a conscious belief or otherwise. That's not to say people don't have the right to express their opinion on a topic or argue their viewpoint but to simply dismiss something like, as an example, blacking up as not offensive and telling black people they should 'deal with it' shows a clear misunderstanding of the experiences of other groups. To further my earlier example lazily comparing it to the banal White Chicks film doesn't do much to disprove the idea there is a fundemental misunderstanding of a situation at play.

The same applies to the concept of white privilege imo, whether the semantics of the wording is correct or otherwise. I can't say with any kind of authority it doesn't exist because I'll never experience it. Not being racist as an individual or having experienced hardship as a straight, white male doesn't nullify something which has to be viewed as part of a far bigger picture.

[-Jonesy-]

Three other officers in floyds death now facing charges

[Kato]

I'd like to suggest that the debate as to whether white privilege (or male privilege, or straight privilege) exists is not open to debate by white, straight, males. People in those groups don't experience it, therefore it's easy to say it doesn't exist.

I'd prefer to trust in the experiences of those who are not in those groups, who tell me that it does exist.


It's simple. The agenda is not ours to set.

[Vault Boy]

Three other officers in floyds death now facing charges

Good. They, unlike the pedestrians who had to look on in horror, wouldn't have gotten tackled to the floor and charged with assaulting an officer/interfering with an arrest had they stopped the asphyxiation. Completely compliant in his murder.

[-Jonesy-]

Good. They, unlike the pedestrians who had to look on in horror, wouldn't have gotten tackled to the floor and charged with assaulting an officer/interfering with an arrest had they stopped the asphyxiation. Completely compliant in his murder.

Derek Chauvin now facing second degree murder charge instead of third, other officers to be charged with aiding and abetting a homicide

[Betty Boop]

Three other officers in floyds death now facing charges


New footage shows three police kneeling on George Floyd.



https://en.as.com/en/2020/05/30/videos/1590837044_573616.html

[bigwheel]

I'd like to suggest that the debate as to whether white privilege (or male privilege, or straight privilege) exists is not open to debate by white, straight, males. People in those groups don't experience it, therefore it's easy to say it doesn't exist.

I'd prefer to trust in the experiences of those who are not in those groups, who tell me that it does exist.

100 percent ...and for tbh , posters who talk about discomfort with that phrase, when across the world people are exasperated, despairing and dying due to inequality and prejudice , perhaps need to rethink where the real focus of this debate needs to be.

[-Jonesy-]

New footage shows three police kneeling on George Floyd.



https://en.as.com/en/2020/05/30/videos/1590837044_573616.html

Is that new information? I saw a photo from the other side of the street just a day after it happened that showed three cops kneeling on him, the other two one on his torso one on his legs.

[Andy74]

I've made this point before albeit in a different context.

White males telling other people what they should and shouldn't be offended by or how they should feel about certain issues is so obviously an example of the belief in a privilege, whether that is a conscious belief or otherwise. That's not to say people don't have the right to express their opinion on a topic or argue their viewpoint but to simply dismiss something like, as an example, blacking up as not offensive and telling black people they should 'deal with it' shows a clear misunderstanding of the experiences of other groups. To further my earlier example lazily comparing it to the banal White Chicks film doesn't do much to disprove the idea there is a fundemental misunderstanding of a situation at play.

The same applies to the concept of white privilege imo, whether the semantics of the wording is correct or otherwise. I can't say with any kind of authority it doesn't exist because I'll never experience it. Not being racist as an individual or having experienced hardship as a straight, white male doesn't nullify something which has to be viewed as part of a far bigger picture.

I get that too but it is white people that are being told they have white privilege so white people can be expected to have a view on that language.

I'm sure most of us aware that we are privileged in a number of ways, including not being judged ordinarily by the colour of our skin.

I just don't think that it is generally a healthy way for it to be described. White people also can't help having been born white - the phrase is being used on the likes of Twitter to have a go at white people simply for being white and not being subject to racism. That's not the right thing either.

I think it is better to be focusing on what can be done to help those impacted rather than stick a further label another group.

[Andy74]

I am not telling you what discussions to be part of, am I? And I can follow nuance and subtlety, thank you.

I was merely commenting on your comments, which seemed rather what we do on this board. I can understand if you are somewhat defensive. No wonder, given your posting history, no blame, just the way it is.

Your attitude on here is the one, in the midst of some difficult stuff, that is bringing it down to personal attacks on someone who has just been articulating a view. Pretty poor really on a thread which is largely about forms of intolerance.

[CapitalGreen]

I get that too but it is white people that are being told they have white privilege so white people can be expected to have a view on that language.

I'm sure most of us aware that we are privileged in a number of ways, including not being judged ordinarily by the colour of our skin.

I just don't think that it is generally a healthy way for it to be described. White people also can't help having been born white - the phrase is being used on the likes of Twitter to have a go at white people simply for being white and not being subject to racism. That's not the right thing either.

I think it is better to be focusing on what can be done to help those impacted rather than stick a further label another group.

I think it is better to be focusing on what can be done to help those impacted rather than worrying about how the concept of ‘white privilege’ is labelled.

[Andy74]

I think it is better to be focusing on what can be done to help those impacted rather than worrying about how the concept of ‘white privilege’ is labelled.

Fair, but it is becoming divisive in itself. When trying to bring things together a wedge is never a good tool.

[Slavers]

I think it is better to be focusing on what can be done to help those impacted rather than worrying about how the concept of ‘white privilege’ is labelled.

When white people are physically attacked for their 'privilege' would you change your mind and agree that the label is divisive and it encourages resentment towards innocent white people?

[Alex Trager]

Excellent post PB I lived in USA for a year in 1995, have never seen such a divided country. When in New Orleans on New Years Eve we (four white dudes) went into a black neighbourhood bar. After about a half hour drinking beer we got talking to the locals who said they had never had white guys in their bar. They were really happy to have Scottish, English, Mexican and a German. It was a wonderful New Year and the locals walked us to the taxis around 0200ish to get to where we needed to be, taxis were also segregated but we got a pass, good people are good people and we need to respect them all.

That sounds like my ideal experience really. I’ve never been to NO but it’s on my list.

A pal was there and a guy said to him in a bar ‘what do you think of blacks?’

Mental

[Lester B]

When white people are physically attacked for their 'privilege' would you change your mind and agree that the label is divisive and it encourages resentment towards innocent white people?

When policemen kneel on the windpipe of an innocent white person because they are white until they lose consciousness then die, I'll change my mind. Not going to happen though is it? I could list dozens of others and ask if that had been a white person.....

How a barely closeted racist and lunatic fringe conspiracy theorist like you continues to be able to post here really is one of the great mysteries of this place.

[Keyser Sauzee]

I’m also unsure as to what other choice black Americans have but to protest and riot, whatever objects or buildings being damaged due to this is far outweighed by the life’s taken from the black and minority communities at the hands of police. I do wonder though what act or event it will take to bring these to a stop as this isn’t like protesting something like minimum wage say where it can be rectified almost overnight, this issue will take years maybe even generations to be changed, it’s too deep to be changed that quickly. I’ve tried to keep out of the debate as it’s an emotive one and I’m not the greatest at articulating myself but I just wondered what others thought.

[Ozyhibby]

https://apnews.com/6223153093f08fa910c4ab445771b773?utm_medium=AP&utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[MWHIBBIES]

The story of Harlon Carter and Ramon Casiano is always something I think of at times like this. Although not directly related to black lifes matter, had the justice done its job way back then, so much tragedy could've been avoided in the US.

[wpj]

That sounds like my ideal experience really. I’ve never been to NO but it’s on my list.

A pal was there and a guy said to him in a bar ‘what do you think of blacks?’

Mental

If you do get to NO check out a bar called The Abbey, it's open 24/7 and has no door, we called it The Abyss and the staff were brilliant. A wonderful mixed race bar, not too many of them in NO. It was in the market section hence the 24 hour service. Several of the locals played music and kids came in tap dancing beer tops on their shoes for a dime, the music got quite intense blues soul and country even sang a couple of Scottish tunes. I was working with a band who played their way through the bar bill

[Bristolhibby]

I’m also unsure as to what other choice black Americans have but to protest and riot, whatever objects or buildings being damaged due to this is far outweighed by the life’s taken from the black and minority communities at the hands of police. I do wonder though what act or event it will take to bring these to a stop as this isn’t like protesting something like minimum wage say where it can be rectified almost overnight, this issue will take years maybe even generations to be changed, it’s too deep to be changed that quickly. I’ve tried to keep out of the debate as it’s an emotive one and I’m not the greatest at articulating myself but I just wondered what others thought.

But like gun control. I thought the massacre of 20 odd 6 year olds at Sandy Hook with a military grade assault rifle would have been a watershed. Turns out it was just more “thoughts and prayers”.

J

[stoneyburn hibs]

If you do get to NO check out a bar called The Abbey, it's open 24/7 and has no door, we called it The Abyss and the staff were brilliant. A wonderful mixed race bar, not too many of them in NO. It was in the market section hence the 24 hour service. Several of the locals played music and kids came in tap dancing beer tops on their shoes for a dime, the music got quite intense blues soul and country even sang a couple of Scottish tunes. I was working with a band who played their way through the bar bill

My last visit to NO was 2 years ago and my brother managed to find SOL on the jukebox 😁

[-Jonesy-]

When policemen kneel on the windpipe of an innocent white person because they are white until they lose consciousness then die, I'll change my mind. Not going to happen though is it? I could list dozens of others and ask if that had been a white person.....

How a barely closeted racist and lunatic fringe conspiracy theorist like you continues to be able to post here really is one of the great mysteries of this place.

Not how but why, there are plenty holes on twitter or Facebook or gab where he can revel with other soft, red pilled, cowardly piece of **** Nazi boy incels to talk to but he chooses to troll a football forum with his pulled straight from YouTube and uninformed opinions and throw little hand grenades of hot takes at people and run away laughing to himself.

[bigwheel]

When white people are physically attacked for their 'privilege' would you change your mind and agree that the label is divisive and it encourages resentment towards innocent white people?

The resentment is towards inequality, lack of opportunities, brutality , prejudice. White people are not the victims here. The root cause of any innocent victims is the injustice systemic in our society. And honestly , why would you focus on that micro point rather than decades (centuries?) of injustice and persecution of the back race? Honestly, I find it impossible to think anything other than you should look within and consider where the real energy should be on this issue.

[Andy74]

The resentment is towards inequality, lack of opportunities, brutality , prejudice. White people are not the victims here. The root cause of any innocent victims is the injustice systemic in our society. And honestly , why would you focus on that micro point rather than decades (centuries?) of injustice and persecution of the back race? Honestly, I find it impossible to think anything other than you should look within and consider where the real energy should be on this issue.

Equality, opportunity, lack of prejudice etc should be the normality, not a privilege.

Using a word or a term to describe a whole race as having a privilege - you can see what that is divisive.

There doesn't need to be name applied to white people on this. As someone else mentioned above it is also location specific. I'm not even sure in the UK it is massively true never mind other places like Asia and Africa.

The reason it is a discussion point just now is that it is now being widely used to cause some division. It is labelling a whole race with something rather than what we should all be doing which is assessing each other as individuals.

[Andy74]

When policemen kneel on the windpipe of an innocent white person because they are white until they lose consciousness then die, I'll change my mind. Not going to happen though is it? I could list dozens of others and ask if that had been a white person.....

How a barely closeted racist and lunatic fringe conspiracy theorist like you continues to be able to post here really is one of the great mysteries of this place.

You are summing up there though what is problematic about this right now.

We can't assume that he was knelt on because he was black and it is also clear from the figures of those who die at the hands of the police in the US that yes, it does happen to all races and there is context as to how the percentage figures work out.

Bash on but just believing and repeating that racist policemen regularly go out off their way to kill black people will change nothing.

[bigwheel]

Equality, opportunity, lack of prejudice etc should be the normality, not a privilege.

Using a word or a term to describe a whole race as having a privilege - you can see what that is divisive.

There doesn't need to be name applied to white people on this. As someone else mentioned above it is also location specific. I'm not even sure in the UK it is massively true never mind other places like Asia and Africa.

The reason it is a discussion point just now is that it is now being widely used to cause some division. It is labelling a whole race with something rather than what we should all be doing which is assessing each other as individuals.

Having normal equality and lack of prejudice is all black community are looking for...that’s how depressing this current environment is .

If the term makes some white people uncomfortable - good , it should do . the divisiveness of hate has long been felt by black and minority communities..let’s focus on that

[blackpoolhibs]

Irrespective on anyones views regarding this problem, one thing i have noticed is just how over the top the police go, when arresting anyone in America, black or white.

They seem to attack people and immobilise them for minor offences the way we deal with terrorists or armed bank robbers.

I suppose its because they assume everyone is armed? :rolleyes:

[calumhibee1]

Irrespective on anyones views regarding this problem, one thing i have noticed is just how over the top the police go, when arresting anyone in America, black or white.

They seem to attack people and immobilise them for minor offences the way we deal with terrorists or armed bank robbers.

I suppose its because they assume everyone is armed? :rolleyes:

There’s a video going round on Facebook just now of a black man who in America who asks a policeman in a car park if he can transfer his pistol from one car to another. He pulls an AK47 out his boot, straps it to his wrist and walks around the car park with his finger near the trigger. The police have their hands on their weapons - not drawn, but definitely on the defensive. And the comments are full of Americans saying the police are a disgrace as it was in an “open carry” state and that it’s only because he’s black that they’ve reacted like this.

If people can’t see why the police would have been semi concerned about the situation then that country stands no chance. I have sympathy with the police in America in many ways. Going into what would be a non threatening situation in the U.K could see some screwball who’s legally wandering around with an AK47 blow you away over there.

[CapitalGreen]

Equality, opportunity, lack of prejudice etc should be the normality, not a privilege.

Using a word or a term to describe a whole race as having a privilege - you can see what that is divisive.

There doesn't need to be name applied to white people on this. As someone else mentioned above it is also location specific. I'm not even sure in the UK it is massively true never mind other places like Asia and Africa.

The reason it is a discussion point just now is that it is now being widely used to cause some division. It is labelling a whole race with something rather than what we should all be doing which is assessing each other as individuals.

Good to see you focussing on what can be done rather than labels.

[calumhibee1]

Good to see you focussing on what can be done rather than labels.

Does that make him wrong? Just because you want folk to focus on what can be done it doesn’t make the point less valid.

[CapitalGreen]

Does that make him wrong? Just because you want folk to focus on what can be done it doesn’t make the point less valid.

Not necessarily but it does make his words a bit hollow. If he is truly more concerned about focussing on what can be done to improve the situation why has he hijacked a thread discussing the issue and turned it into a discussion of how the issue is labelled.

[wpj]

I've been in touch with my friends in America, one is a total trumper most are Democrat I dont judge. They all agree that this killing was wrong, the Trumper still thinks he is a good leader the rest think he is an absolute tw@t. What is encouraging is to see so many white people protesting across the world in support of black lives matter. I loved seeing Liverpool FC taking the knee, I'm a Blue but totally respect the red's stance

[DaveF]

I'm not posting this in any sort of way to cause angst and it might have been addressed anyway but the 3 officers charged with aiding and abetting are described by news outlets as 'white' when clearly one is of far east origin and another looks Latino or mixed race.

Now this makes no difference to the case. They are guilty of a horrific crime and deserve what's coming to them but is it accurate or lazy reporting?

[calumhibee1]

I'm not posting this in any sort of way to cause angst and it might have been addressed anyway but the 3 officers charged with aiding and abetting are described by news outlets as 'white' when clearly one is of far east origin and another looks Latino or mixed race.

Now this makes no difference to the case. They are guilty of a horrific crime and deserve what's coming to them but is it accurate or lazy reporting?

I definitely wouldn’t have described the Asian and Latino officers as white.

[matty_f]

I saw this quote about the white privilege term:


"I think there's also the misunderstanding around what white privilege is because people hear the word 'privilege' and their defences go up straightaway," Saad adds. "Because they feel like they’re not living a privileged life, necessarily, you know – I grew up poor or you may belong to the LGBTQ community or you're disabled or you're a woman.
"And those identities come with their own experiences of oppression and marginalisation. But the key thing to understand with white privilege specifically is that any hardships, or oppression or marginalisation that you've experienced have had nothing to do with your race."

From here: https://t.co/yIifEkxj5R

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm not posting this in any sort of way to cause angst and it might have been addressed anyway but the 3 officers charged with aiding and abetting are described by news outlets as 'white' when clearly one is of far east origin and another looks Latino or mixed race.

Now this makes no difference to the case. They are guilty of a horrific crime and deserve what's coming to them but is it accurate or lazy reporting?

I thought I had misheard the BBC news at 10 when they said all 4 white police officers had now been arrested. Granted I've only seen the **** that has kneeling on him who was clearly white, but the other bald guy stood to the right of him looked Asian American to me, not seen the other two to be able to comment

I'd hope its shoddy reporting rather than there being anything in it

[Berwickhibby]

Not sure if you are familiar with her but she can only be described as a **** and is like the American Katy Hopkins, wouldn't pay much attention to any of the pish she comes out with

Never heard of her before today.....after a Google search I deleted my post ....

[Mon Dieu4]

Never heard of her before today

Probably for the best to be honest, no pun intended but she's an "if you say black I will say white" kinda person, all done for attention and effect, I don't even think she believes half of the stuff she comes out with

I deleted the quoted post as well, the Internet can throw up all sorts of things!!!

[Mon Dieu4]

23503

This is a genuine tweet from today, you honestly couldn't make this stuff up :faf:

[Berwickhibby]

23503

This is a genuine tweet from today, you honestly couldn't make this stuff up :faf:

Nah...that's got to be a wind up....its like me when I post in Jambos Kickback

[Hibrandenburg]

My tuppence worth on white privilege, I'm white northern European with fair skin and dark hair. I can move freely throughout Europe without anyone batting an eyelid. However, I live in Germany and have had a tiny little glimpse and I repeat it was only a tiny little glimpse as to what it must be like to be someone of a different ethnic background to the majority of the citizens that live in Europe and dare I say the USA. When I first got here I became aware that because of my appearance it was no different to being in Scotland, I could walk down the street and wouldn't notice any reaction from my fellow citizens (other than lusting females ogling my pert buttocks) and nobody batted an eyelid. At first I spoke with an accent and it was amazing to observe for an instant the look in some people's eyes who would immediately have a look of suspicion when I spoke and they realised that I was not that what they assumed I was, it was just a slight heightening of their internal state of alert. Another eye opener was when I was on a course in another German city with a friend and colleague from Laos, we used to meet for breakfast at our hotel prior to walking to the school where the course was taking place. Until that point I had only experienced a reaction from locals when I opened my mouth, just walking with this guy gave me a sense of what it must be like for those of different appearance, people walking in the opposite direction would make a wide berth around him or even cross the street to avoid him, in the bars at night there would always be 1 or 2 stupid comments about his appearance or how he talked. Imagine that from the moment you left your house until the moment you closed your door on an evening you were subject to being treated differently because of the way you look. That's white privilege, being homogenous 24/7.

[Vault Boy]

My tuppence worth on white privilege, I'm white northern European with fair skin and dark hair. I can move freely throughout Europe without anyone batting an eyelid. However, I live in Germany and have had a tiny little glimpse and I repeat it was only a tiny little glimpse as to what it must be like to be someone of a different ethnic background to the majority of the citizens that live in Europe and dare I say the USA. When I first got here I became aware that because of my appearance it was no different to being in Scotland, I could walk down the street and wouldn't notice any reaction from my fellow citizens (other than lusting females ogling my pert buttocks) and nobody batted an eyelid. At first I spoke with an accent and it was amazing to observe for an instant the look in some people's eyes who would immediately have a look of suspicion when I spoke and they realised that I was not that what they assumed I was, it was just a slight heightening of their internal state of alert. Another eye opener was when I was on a course in another German city with a friend and colleague from Laos, we used to meet for breakfast at our hotel prior to walking to the school where the course was taking place. Until that point I had only experienced a reaction from locals when I opened my mouth, just walking with this guy gave me a sense of what it must be like for those of different appearance, people walking in the opposite direction would make a wide berth around him or even cross the street to avoid him, in the bars at night there would always be 1 or 2 stupid comments about his appearance or how he talked. Imagine that from the moment you left your house until the moment you closed your door on an evening you were subject to being treated differently because of the way you look. That's white privilege, being homogenous 24/7.

Great post, interesting to read about those experiences.

[StevesFamau5]

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/02/us/tom-herman-spt-trnd/index.html

An interesting peice from Texas Longhorns football coach Tom Herman, basically saying the student athletes go from being heroes for 3 and a half hours every Saturday for 12 weeks to being marginalised the rest of the time (that's maybe a slight exaggeration) but it's not far from the truth.

How can anyone from a white background even remotely comprehend that, simple answer. You can't.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20200605/df798de5c6a569ce9a5b301aa0ff2004.jpg

Sent from my VOG-L09 using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

This is a simple demonstration of privilege in action.

For anyone who doesn't like the term "privilege", just think of it as having all the advantages.

Have you ever looked at other people and thought "I'm lucky" or "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

As the guy in the video points out, being privileged isn't your fault. You've done nothing wrong. But you've got a huge head start.

https://youtu.be/4K5fbQ1-zps

[matty_f]

This is a simple demonstration of privilege in action.

For anyone who doesn't like the term "privilege", just think of it as having all the advantages.

Have you ever looked at other people and thought "I'm lucky" or "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

As the guy in the video points out, being privileged isn't your fault. You've done nothing wrong. But you've got a huge head start.

https://youtu.be/4K5fbQ1-zps
I've seen that before, it's a great way to demonstrate it

[Andy74]

This is a simple demonstration of privilege in action.

For anyone who doesn't like the term "privilege", just think of it as having all the advantages.

Have you ever looked at other people and thought "I'm lucky" or "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

As the guy in the video points out, being privileged isn't your fault. You've done nothing wrong. But you've got a huge head start.

https://youtu.be/4K5fbQ1-zps

It’s a good example of why it is the wrong term.

Saying an entire race based on colour of skin have all the advantages just isn’t correct.

In a narrow example of the fact you won’t be subject to racism, ordinarily in Western countries, then yes but it should still be the norm to strive to and not a privilege.

[Andy74]

Irrespective on anyones views regarding this problem, one thing i have noticed is just how over the top the police go, when arresting anyone in America, black or white.

They seem to attack people and immobilise them for minor offences the way we deal with terrorists or armed bank robbers.

I suppose its because they assume everyone is armed? :rolleyes:

There’s a video this morning of an old white guy being shoved over and then bleeding from the head.

It is an issue with police brutality in general.

If this old guy had been black would it have automatically have been racist? There are countless videos of protestors of all backgrounds being treated this way. The same thing happens on the streets every day.

This is just my point - I don’t think in a widespread way that black people are targeted by racist police. This is the way, largely, that they treat anyone.

Racism absolutely is a major problem that needs addressed. The economic conditions that exacerbate it need addressed and police brutality needs addressed, but they aren’t necessarily all the same issue. That’s too simplistic.

[Pretty Boy]

I was having a read back through this thread and the references to growing up in schemes along with Hibrandenburgs post about his experience in Germany caught my eye.

I think there may be some parallels to be drawn between the experience of the 'schemie' in Edinburgh (and beyond) and black people in the US and globally. People seemed to bristle at the term 'white privilege', I assume in part because of the feeling they were being judged either solely or in part based on nothing more than the colour of their skin with little consideration given to the other factors or experiences that make them who they are. Imagine dealing with that every single day. How many people from the schemes of Edinburgh will have opened their mouth at an event and been made to feel instantly out of place because of their schemie accent? Imagine dealing with that every day. Think of the deprivation that was and is rampant in the schemes of Edinburgh and then compare that to the policy of redlining in the US. A policy which very deliberately denies certain areas, usually with high minority populations, access to funding and services. Think back to growing up and think about the extra vigilance the Police showed towards a group of kids from a scheme compared to how they viewed a similar group in Barnton or Morningside. Imagine dealing with that every day as an adult. Minority groups in the US found it almost impossible historically to secure mortgages in redlined areas, this is an obvious cause of urban decay and decline. Right through the 1990s there was a clear pattern of mortgage discrimination that was not based on credit worthiness.

Consider how loaded the queston 'what school did you go to?' is in Scotland in more ways than one. In days gone by the answer may have determined if you would be denied work or not. Even now it still gives an insight into your background, socio-economic status and quite possibly your cultural and ethnic heritage. In the US schools are often funded through property taxation so poorer areas tend to have poorer schools, poorer areas in turn tend to have higher minority populations. Imagine how loaded the same question becomes there. Consider that in the US a college graduate with a white sounding name has to send an average of 10 CVs to get one callback, a college graduate with a black sounding name has to send an average of 15 to get the same response.

The fact is the legacy of the Jim Crow Laws and post segregation town planning and policy still have an impact on access to education, credit, housing, insurance healthcare and countless other services today. Draggin yourself out of poverty is tough for people of all races but there is extensive evidence to suggest that black people have a tougher task than most. That's not to suggest every white individual is inherently privileged in a material way or every white person carries an innate racism within them. Rather I believe society as a whole put systems in place that keep people 'in their place', when it comes to being black there are a few extra barriers thrown up for good measure.

[bigwheel]

It’s a good example of why it is the wrong term.

Saying an entire race based on colour of skin have all the advantages just isn’t correct.

In a narrow example of the fact you won’t be subject to racism, ordinarily in Western countries, then yes but it should still be the norm to strive to and not a privilege.

here is what your posts on this issue read like:

“As a white man I am offended by some of the labels being used by people who have been oppressed and prejudiced by the white population for centuries “.


Honestly, having read a number of your posts on this thread - you are either being deliberately argumentative or you don’t truly empathise with the black community on their fight against prejudice ..perhaps you should look inward and consider - which one is it ?

[hibsbollah]

There’s a video this morning of an old white guy being shoved over and then bleeding from the head.

It is an issue with police brutality in general.

If this old guy had been black would it have automatically have been racist? There are countless videos of protestors of all backgrounds being treated this way. The same thing happens on the streets every day.

This is just my point - I don’t think in a widespread way that black people are targeted by racist police. This is the way, largely, that they treat anyone.

Racism absolutely is a major problem that needs addressed. The economic conditions that exacerbate it need addressed and police brutality needs addressed, but they aren’t necessarily all the same issue. That’s too simplistic.

You didn’t respond to my post a couple of days ago, which asked you particular questions fleshing out your views. You have now expanded on that by being explicit that ‘black people aren’t targeted by racist police in any widespread way’. Despite millions of black people telling you the opposite. You haven’t given any proper evidence for your scepticism, except you’ve done some sort of criminology degree and you worked in financial services in Georgia for a while. You can’t just say ‘it’s more complicated’ ‘it’s nuanced’, without explaining what that nuance actually is. You, who are white, are telling black people in the US who are complaining of racism that they are somehow wrong. That is a ridiculous position to take and it’s called whitesplaining. You need to own it.

[matty_f]

You didn’t respond to my post a couple of days ago, which asked you particular questions fleshing out your views. You have now expanded on that by being explicit that ‘black people aren’t targeted by racist police in any widespread way’. Despite millions of black people telling you the opposite. You haven’t given any proper evidence for your scepticism, except you’ve done some sort of criminology degree and you worked in financial services in Georgia for a while. You can’t just say ‘it’s more complicated’ ‘it’s nuanced’, without explaining what that nuance actually is. You, who are white, are telling black people in the US who are complaining of racism that they are somehow wrong. That is a ridiculous position to take and it’s called whitesplaining. You need to own it.

Superb.

[StevesFamau5]

You didn’t respond to my post a couple of days ago, which asked you particular questions fleshing out your views. You have now expanded on that by being explicit that ‘black people aren’t targeted by racist police in any widespread way’. Despite millions of black people telling you the opposite. You haven’t given any proper evidence for your scepticism, except you’ve done some sort of criminology degree and you worked in financial services in Georgia for a while. You can’t just say ‘it’s more complicated’ ‘it’s nuanced’, without explaining what that nuance actually is. You, who are white, are telling black people in the US who are complaining of racism that they are somehow wrong. That is a ridiculous position to take and it’s called whitesplaining. You need to own it.Nail. On. The. Head.

Bollah, do you think it's down to fear or acceptance or ignorance that drives certain people to 'whitesplain'?

I'm asking because I seem to come across both of the above with people I know and it's difficult to judge if they are being plain ignorant or they are actually afraid admit that they are privileged white people regardless of their social status or financial past/present.

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[Rumble de Thump]

There is a lot of ignorance on this thread from people with various points of view, and it's led to a rather toxic discussion.

[JimBHibees]

This is a simple demonstration of privilege in action.

For anyone who doesn't like the term "privilege", just think of it as having all the advantages.

Have you ever looked at other people and thought "I'm lucky" or "There, but for the grace of God, go I".

As the guy in the video points out, being privileged isn't your fault. You've done nothing wrong. But you've got a huge head start.

https://youtu.be/4K5fbQ1-zps

That is brilliant thanks for sharing that.

[Smartie]

There is a lot of ignorance on this thread from people with various points of view, and it's led to a rather toxic discussion.

I'd say the opposite.

This is an emotional and difficult subject that often gets out of hand very quickly.

Folk are stating their case in a very reasonable manner.

I have my opinions and there is a side I am definitely on here, but I've quite enjoyed the discussion.

Although I don't think anyone is going to be changing anybody else's mind and time soon...

[hibsbollah]

I’m
Nail. On. The. Head.

Bollah, do you think it's down to fear or acceptance or ignorance that drives certain people to 'whitesplain'?

I'm asking because I seem to come across both of the above with people I know and it's difficult to judge if they are being plain ignorant or they are actually afraid admit that they are privileged white people regardless of their social status or financial past/present.

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I don’t really know mate, I’d hesitate to try to state with confidence what motivates other people. I’d be on shaky ground there :greengrin I’d want to avoid accusations of Liberalsplaining.

On the other point, I don’t think there’s any ‘toxicity’ on the thread at all. Just fundamental disagreements.

[Pretty Boy]

I’m

I don’t really know mate, I’d hesitate to try to state with confidence what motivates other people. I’d be on shaky ground there :greengrin I’d want to avoid accusations of Liberalsplaining.

On the other point, I don’t think there’s any ‘toxicity’ on the thread at all. Just fundamental disagreements.

I think as far as the HG goes it's been a very good thread. I've enjoyed seeing other views and debating what is an obviously emotive topic.

[neil7908]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/buffalo-police-department-old-man-push-protests-video-a9551941.html

Whilst race is understandably and absolutely the main focus, I think there needs to be further discussion of policing in the US and the 2nd Amendment. Incidents like the above show how twisted policing has become - this wasn't a race issue and police were absolutely unquestionably in the wrong but the first statement when this incident was reported was to lie about it and only after the video was shown was there any action. And now the union are flexing their muscles.

Police in the US act like a gang - they protect their own no matter what they have done and are pretty much untouchable. That has to end.

But alongside that we have to acknowledge that policing in the US (especially in a city) is a pretty terrible job. When you know that every person you stop could pull a pistol, or everything house could have people armed with assault rifles, that clearly leads to a dangerous mentality in every encounter, all exacerbated by racism.

[hibsbollah]

https://www.nfl.com/news/players-send-message-to-league-in-coordinated-video-post

[Callum_62]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/buffalo-police-department-old-man-push-protests-video-a9551941.html

Whilst race is understandably and absolutely the main focus, I think there needs to be further discussion of policing in the US and the 2nd Amendment. Incidents like the above show how twisted policing has become - this wasn't a race issue and police were absolutely unquestionably in the wrong but the first statement when this incident was reported was to lie about it and only after the video was shown was there any action. And now the union are flexing their muscles.

Police in the US act like a gang - they protect their own no matter what they have done and are pretty much untouchable. That has to end.

But alongside that we have to acknowledge that policing in the US (especially in a city) is a pretty terrible job. When you know that every person you stop could pull a pistol, or everything house could have people armed with assault rifles, that clearly leads to a dangerous mentality in every encounter, all exacerbated by racism.Your not wrong about protecting there own

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html?__twitter_impression=true

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[Bristolhibby]

Your not wrong about protecting there own

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html?__twitter_impression=true

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That’s a disgrace. They should all be fired. Bunch of bar stewards.

J

[Bristolhibby]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/buffalo-police-department-old-man-push-protests-video-a9551941.html

Whilst race is understandably and absolutely the main focus, I think there needs to be further discussion of policing in the US and the 2nd Amendment. Incidents like the above show how twisted policing has become - this wasn't a race issue and police were absolutely unquestionably in the wrong but the first statement when this incident was reported was to lie about it and only after the video was shown was there any action. And now the union are flexing their muscles.

Police in the US act like a gang - they protect their own no matter what they have done and are pretty much untouchable. That has to end.

But alongside that we have to acknowledge that policing in the US (especially in a city) is a pretty terrible job. When you know that every person you stop could pull a pistol, or everything house could have people armed with assault rifles, that clearly leads to a dangerous mentality in every encounter, all exacerbated by racism.

Your last paragraph, shows that this again, goes back to gun control. De arm the citizens and automatically you take away the fear from the cops. Then they would have to be less like Robocop and could Police by consent again.

J

[Ozyhibby]

https://twitter.com/bdaviskc/status/1268401251978563585?s=21

These guys don’t even look like proper police? Look more like mercenaries.


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[Callum_62]

That’s a disgrace. They should all be fired. Bunch of bar stewards.

JI seriously need to limit my twitter use

Getting into an argument with someone who is defending the police saying that 75 year old man deserved it because he came close to them flailing his arms around there gun

He was holding a riot helmet ffs.

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[Betty Boop]

https://www.nfl.com/news/players-send-message-to-league-in-coordinated-video-post



NFL to allow players to protest during National Anthem


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52945934

[Berwickhibby]

Your last paragraph, shows that this again, goes back to gun control. De arm the citizens and automatically you take away the fear from the cops. Then they would have to be less like Robocop and could Police by consent again.

J

Been saying the same since the start of the thread.

[Callum_62]

https://twitter.com/pat_lee/status/1268731712143581185?s=19

False flag! Cloning tech

Worlds gone mental.

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[Antifa Hibs]

Have any governments had the balls to speak out against America yet?

If these scenes were in Moscow or Tehran i can't help but think everyone would be lining up to speak out against it.

Has this happened with the yanks yet?

[Callum_62]

Have any governments had the balls to speak out against America yet?

If these scenes were in Moscow or Tehran i can't help but think everyone would be lining up to speak out against it.

Has this happened with the yanks yet?I believe our FM spoke out

Wouldn't hold your breathe on UK gov, we have a trade deal to secure

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[Sir David Gray]

I believe our FM spoke out

Wouldn't hold your breathe on UK gov, we have a trade deal to secure

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It's a lot easier to speak out when there's nothing at stake.

I'm not saying it's right and I have absolutely no time for Donald Trump but I'm pretty sure Nicola Sturgeon wouldn't be so outspoken if billions of pounds worth of trade deals depended on her having a cordial relationship with Trump.

[Berwickhibby]

It's a lot easier to speak out when there's nothing at stake.

I'm not saying it's right and I have absolutely no time for Donald Trump but I'm pretty sure Nicola Sturgeon wouldn't be so outspoken if billions of pounds worth of trade deals depended on her having a cordial relationship with Trump.

Stop applying common sense and reason 😆😆

[hibsbollah]

Your not wrong about protecting there own

https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/06/05/us/buffalo-police-suspension-shoving-man-trnd/index.html?__twitter_impression=true

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Good news. Don’t let them back. Spend the money on community projects instead.

[G B Young]

Not sure if I've missed something but how come the mass gatherings about this - not just in the US but in other countries including the UK - have got the go-ahead? Why not crowds at football or music festivals? The rationale for the demos is all well and good but Covid-19 isn't selective in its spread according to how morally just the gathering might be.

There are surely, as Nicola Sturgeon suggested, other ways to make their point without flouting social distancing on such a reckless and dangerous scale.

[Slavers]

Not sure if I've missed something but how come the mass gatherings about this - not just in the US but in other countries including the UK - have got the go-ahead? Why not crowds at football or music festivals? The rationale for the demos is all well and good but Covid-19 isn't selective in its spread according to how morally just the gathering might be.

There are surely, as Nicola Sturgeon suggested, other ways to make their point without flouting social distancing on such a reckless and dangerous scale.

I think the real issue for the government is when they hold their hands up and admit they they listened to the wrong advice.

There will be no second wave after the protests just like there was no second wave when Boris allowed people back to work on packed tube stations.

The over the top reaction & the bogus Covid-19 deaths are the biggest government scandal in my life time.

[Berwickhibby]

I think the real issue for the government is when they hold their hands up and admit they they listened to the wrong advice.

There will be no second wave after the protests just like there was no second wave when Boris allowed people back to work on packed tube stations.

The over the top reaction & the bogus Covid-19 deaths are the biggest government scandal in my life time.

I have no idea if this correct ....time will tell, but either way the Government (both) will be Damned by their decisions.....I see AUOB are calling to their support to turn BLM into an independence rally and it's supported by the FM....I doubt the FM wants any mass gatherings at this time

[hibsbollah]

Have any governments had the balls to speak out against America yet?

If these scenes were in Moscow or Tehran i can't help but think everyone would be lining up to speak out against it.

Has this happened with the yanks yet?

China is the only foreign government I’ve heard being explicit about it. US and Chinese aircraft carriers currently steaming around Taiwan, needs to be kept an eye on.

[lapsedhibee]

China is the only foreign government I’ve heard being explicit about it. US and Chinese aircraft carriers currently steaming around Taiwan, needs to be kept an eye on.

Did Williamson not send our lads out there to keep an eye on both of them? Before he was thrown out of govt for lying, and then brought back in for lying, that is.

[Bostonhibby]

Did Williamson not send our lads out there to keep an eye on both of them? Before he was thrown out of govt for lying, and then brought back in for lying, that is.At a time like this the government needs it's best liars in the front line.

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[lapsedhibee]

At a time like this the government needs it's best liars in the front line.


You'd think so, but Hancock's on the tellybox nearly every day!

[Bostonhibby]

You'd think so, but Hancock's on the tellybox nearly every day!Amateur compared to Williamson.

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[Mon Dieu4]

China is the only foreign government I’ve heard being explicit about it. US and Chinese aircraft carriers currently steaming around Taiwan, needs to be kept an eye on.

North Korea, Iran and Russia have had a dig as well :agree:

[Callum_62]

I think the real issue for the government is when they hold their hands up and admit they they listened to the wrong advice.

There will be no second wave after the protests just like there was no second wave when Boris allowed people back to work on packed tube stations.

The over the top reaction & the bogus Covid-19 deaths are the biggest government scandal in my life time.Bogus deaths?

That needs expanded on surely

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[Ozyhibby]

It's a lot easier to speak out when there's nothing at stake.

I'm not saying it's right and I have absolutely no time for Donald Trump but I'm pretty sure Nicola Sturgeon wouldn't be so outspoken if billions of pounds worth of trade deals depended on her having a cordial relationship with Trump.

If NS was in charge we wouldn’t be begging Trump for a trade deal because we would still be in the EU.[emoji849]


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[Pretty Boy]

Bogus deaths?

That needs expanded on surely

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I'd like to hear more about that as well. Slavers theories are always entertaining reading. More Booker prize than Samual Johnson award material but entertaining nonetheless.

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure if I've missed something but how come the mass gatherings about this - not just in the US but in other countries including the UK - have got the go-ahead? Why not crowds at football or music festivals? The rationale for the demos is all well and good but Covid-19 isn't selective in its spread according to how morally just the gathering might be.

There are surely, as Nicola Sturgeon suggested, other ways to make their point without flouting social distancing on such a reckless and dangerous scale.

You do not need permission to protest.


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[Sir David Gray]

If NS was in charge we wouldn’t be begging Trump for a trade deal because we would still be in the EU.[emoji849]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How many EU leaders have personally criticised Donald Trump in the way that Nicola Sturgeon has?

[G B Young]

You do not need permission to protest.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I thought such large-scale gatherings were illegal at present though? Thought it was six people maximum in England and eight in Scotland.

[Sir David Gray]

I thought such large-scale gatherings were illegal at present though? Thought it was six people maximum in England and eight in Scotland.

Apparently it will be fine for the Glasgow one to go ahead because they've moved it from George Square to Glasgow Green and they're asking people to social distance and stay within their household groups.

I'm sure that will all go to plan.

[G B Young]

Apparently it will be fine for the Glasgow one to go ahead because they've moved it from George Square to Glasgow Green and they're asking people to social distance and stay within their household groups.

I'm sure that will all go to plan.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52933076

Sturgeon (and Manchester mayor Andy Burnham) have tried to be especially reasonable I would say, but the response from organisers is essentially 'we're going ahead no matter what you think'. Selfish stuff in the current climate IMHO no matter what the cause:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52936440

[Sir David Gray]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52933076

Sturgeon (and Manchester mayor Andy Burnham) have tried to be especially reasonable I would say, but the response from organisers is essentially 'we're going ahead no matter what you think'. Selfish stuff in the current climate IMHO no matter what the cause:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52936440

Correct, unfortunately no one in authority will dare to call them out for it though.

[EH6 Hibby]

I think the real issue for the government is when they hold their hands up and admit they they listened to the wrong advice.

There will be no second wave after the protests just like there was no second wave when Boris allowed people back to work on packed tube stations.

The over the top reaction & the bogus Covid-19 deaths are the biggest government scandal in my life time.

You have the most appropriate username I’ve ever seen.

[Betty Boop]

The Edinburgh march has been moved to Holyrood Park at 1.



https://www.edinburghlive.co.uk/news/edinburgh-news/black-lives-matter-protest-edinburgh-18364641

[weecounty hibby]

I have no idea if this correct ....time will tell, but either way the Government (both) will be Damned by their decisions.....I see AUOB are calling to their support to turn BLM into an independence rally and it's supported by the FM....I doubt the FM wants any mass gatherings at this time

That is utter bull**** and I suspect that you know that. AUOB said no such thing but a made up account with no links at all to AUOB did. Also NS asked people not to go to large gatherings but to find other ways to make their feelings known and protest. Again I think you probably knew that

[Berwickhibby]

That is utter bull**** and I suspect that you know that. AUOB said no such thing but a made up account with no links at all to AUOB did. Also NS asked people not to go to large gatherings but to find other ways to make their feelings known and protest. Again I think you probably knew that

The Twitter account looks pretty authentic with name "all under one banner Glasgow".... but I will take your word of it being fake...I honestly don't know. I already said I doubted that FM would support any mass gatherings

[CapitalGreen]

The Twitter account looks pretty authentic with name "all under one banner Glasgow".... but I will take your word of it being fake...I honestly don't know. I already said I doubted that FM would support any mass gatherings

Are you new to Twitter?

[Berwickhibby]

Are you new to Twitter?

I am not on twitter... the link was sent on Facebook

[CapitalGreen]

I am not on twitter... the link was sent on Facebook

That explains a lot.

[Keith_M]

I have no doubts whatsoever that some of the incidents of Black people killed by Police in the US had some racial motive or overtone.

However, given the policing of the demonstrations in the last week, I now think the biggest issue is that the Police are far too inclined to use violence even if it really isn't required. The attacks on the Media (of all races and genders), and the two policemen knocking over a totally nonthreatening 75 y/o white guy, kind of backs that up.

Having seen the video of the latter incident, I was totally gobsmacked to read that the police's first report said that the guy 'fell over'.

[Antifa Hibs]

I have no doubts whatsoever that some of the incidents of Black people killed by Police in the US had some racial motive or overtone.

However, given the policing of the demonstrations in the last week, I now think the biggest issue is that the Police are far too inclined to use violence even if it really isn't required. The attacks on the Media (of all races and genders), and the two policemen knocking over a totally nonthreatening 75 y/o white guy, kind of backs that up.

Having seen the video of the latter incident, I was totally gobsmacked to read that the police's first report said that the guy 'fell over'.

Seriously?

Police are some of the biggest crooks out there. Those involved in the Sheku Bayoh death up here refused to be interviewed for almost a month til they got their story right. **** me it took almost forty years to get some truths and justice for Hillsborough due to their lies. There are some very good coppers who do alot of good and put up with a helluva lot of ***** but as a collective unit and organisation they are bullying lying *******s.

[Antifa Hibs]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52933076

Sturgeon (and Manchester mayor Andy Burnham) have tried to be especially reasonable I would say, but the response from organisers is essentially 'we're going ahead no matter what you think'. Selfish stuff in the current climate IMHO no matter what the cause:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52936440



Let's be honest after last weekends scenes I don't think a few protests are going to make much difference.

Could argue 1000's at the meadows and porty beach, governments sending kids back to school and opening furniture stores so folk can buy cheap chinese made "Swedish" furniture is selfish.

[Pretty Boy]

I know the protests are very important and I don't mean to make light of a very serious cause.

However I do find myself amused by some of the people on my social media. A few of the biggest curtain twitchers who couldn't wait to grass their neighbours for such heinous crimes as going going 2 walks in one day, going to the supermarket for nothing more than alcohol and nuts or having a visitor stand outside their window for 5 minutes are now proudly proclaiming they will be attending a mass gathering tomorrow despite it being against the guidelines at this time.

Personally I have no real issue with people attending but there's a lovely dose of hypocrisy on show.

[Keith_M]

I know the protests are very important and I don't mean to make light of a very serious cause.

However I do find myself amused by some of the people on my social media. A few of the biggest curtain twitchers who couldn't wait to grass their fo neighbours for such heinous crimes as going going 2 walks in one day, going to the supermarket for nothing more than alcohol and nuts or having a visitor stand outside their window for 5 minutes are now proudly proclaiming they will be attending a mass gathering tomorrow despite it being against the guidelines at this time.

Personally I have no real issue with people attending but there's a lovely dose of hypocrisy on show.


Indeed, and that includes some sections of the media.

It's either safe to gather in large groups, with little social distancing, or it's not.

[Keith_M]

Let's be honest after last weekends scenes I don't think a few protests are going to make much difference.

Could argue 1000's at the meadows and porty beach, governments sending kids back to school and opening furniture stores so folk can buy cheap chinese made "Swedish" furniture is selfish.


If they're not taking proper safety precautions and applying social distancing procedures, then yes it is wrong.

I'm not sure if you've noticed, but there has been widespread criticism of people gathering in large groups.

[Sir David Gray]

Indeed, and that includes some sections of the media.

It's either safe to gather in large groups, with little social distancing, or it's not.

Correct.

I'd love the media to call these demonstrations what they are - illegal and dangerous.

[B.H.F.C]

Protests turning into violence. Entirely predictable and disgraceful in the circumstances.

The reason for protesting is absolutely justified. But when you have folk turning up with their carry out who proceed to launch their empties at the police, the protest probably isn’t the reason why they went along.

[Berwickhibby]

The people of the UK isolated themselves, abandoned our elderly to die alone, missed funerals, can't visit loved ones in hospital, cancelled weddings, cancer treatments etc not completed, destroyed businesses, our recovering economy is back down the drain its shattered our children’s and grandchildren's futures, some folk are on the bones of their backsides .

Yet these clowns toss aside that sacrifice
To gather for something that did not happen in this country and to honour a man who shouldn’t have been killed in the way he was.

Should we get second wave of the Coronavirus in a few weeks and locked down again. I Hope everyone knows who to blame!!

[lapsedhibee]

The people of the UK isolated themselves, abandoned our elderly to die alone, missed funerals, can't visit loved ones in hospital, cancelled weddings, cancer treatments etc not completed, destroyed businesses, our recovering economy is back down the drain its shattered our children’s and grandchildren's futures, some folk are on the bones of their backsides .

Yet these clowns toss aside that sacrifice
To gather for something that did not happen in this country and to honour a man who shouldn’t have been killed in the way he was.

Should we get second wave of the Coronavirus in a few weeks and locked down again. I Hope everyone knows who to blame!!
Yup, Cummings and Johnson.

[Betty Boop]

Yup, Cummings and Johnson.


:agree: