Tin hat firmly secured on... yes to reconstruction

[edinburghhibee]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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[Haymaker]

Nope.

[CapitalGreen]

If we are missing out on big away supports are you suggesting there is no split and therefore everyone plays each other twice? So a total of just 30 games instead of 38?

[greenpaper55]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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It's a yes from me but not next season !

[Hibernian Verse]

Nope.

The OP is putting his opinion across and backing it up with why he feels it's a good idea, at least give him something constructive back!

[TimeForHeroes16]

Before this saga for years I’ve always wanted a 16/18 team league and reconstruction.

right now? Nope maybe next year or the year after let them suffer

[Peevemor]

Nah!

[superfurryhibby]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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On a purely football basis I would prefer an expanded league. From a financial perspective it doesn't make sense.

[edinburghhibee]

Before this saga for years I’ve always wanted a 16/18 team league and reconstruction.

right now? Nope maybe next year or the year after let them suffer

I’m the same I’ve always wanted the bigger league and although I couldn’t give a toss about them over the road it’s a crap situation for Patrick.

Just think with all the Derby’s and big games our league might offer a bit more to the paying public than playing Hamilton v st Johnstone for the 3/4th time in a year.


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[bod]

I’m open to reconstruction just not to save the bottom team this season regardless of who it is.i also don’t understand how Brechin are exempted .
Start discussing it now to possibly start when this new super duper sky contract finishes giving a few seasons notice .

[007]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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You'd need a top business person with the negotiating skills of Budge to renegotiate the Sky deal. As she indicated from her statement it shouldn't be hard so armed with your proposal she'd probably double the £160m, at the very least.

[HibeeLR]

Would love a 16 team league along the lines of the Czech league. 14 teams would be too similar to the 12 currently imo and 18 is probably too many.

[Ozyhibby]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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Where do you suggest Hibs make cuts? Playing budget? Sell Boyle? Maybe just get rid of East mains and go back to public parks?


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[nonshinyfinish]

I’m the same I’ve always wanted the bigger league and although I couldn’t give a toss about them over the road it’s a crap situation for Patrick.

Just think with all the Derby’s and big games our league might offer a bit more to the paying public than playing Hamilton v st Johnstone for the 3/4th time in a year.


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While obviously Hamilton vs Motherwell or Ayr vs Kilmarnock are big games for the clubs involved, are they really more attractive to everyone else than, say, Hamilton vs St Johnstone?

Have you ever gone out of your way to watch a Lanarkshire derby?

[Jdawg]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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Other than the derbies you mention, are you really excited about 100 or so fans from Ayr and Inverness coming to ER. There’s enough dross in the Premiership already without adding more.

[CentreLine]

As a football fan I think you are absolutely right. Playing the same teams over and over again is not healthy and in an ideal world I would go back to a 16 or 18 top league in a heartbeat.

However, the game has moved in from the 1960’s and it’s finance in no longer generated from pay-at-the-gate. Since TV dictates everything about our game, we are trapped in that situation. I feel the authorities have created the best possible balance with our 12 team structure, a split, European places at stake and play-offs. It means there are meaningful games, at both ends of the table right to the wire. That makes it attractive to fans, to sponsors and importantly to the TV money people. All of which is supported by the fact that attendance levels at matches are at the highest level since I started going to games in the mid 1960’s.

I too long for the days of no segregation and just one home game a year v the rest. Sadly, I believe, the game has come too far for that to happen and our current set up is the best option.

[edinburghhibee]

If we are missing out on big away supports are you suggesting there is no split and therefore everyone plays each other twice? So a total of just 30 games instead of 38?

Honestly I’ve no put much thought into it but you could always split after the 30 games?

Every team gets a week off, say if killie are sitting bottom 2 of the top split and no chance of Europe or winning the league they sit out the final week that then avoids the issue of a team waiting a week for the league/Europe to be decided.

In honesty I have no idea I’m just giving my opinion means nothing in the grand scheme of things.


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[Bostonhibby]

Not against considering a decent proposal put together independently and consulting widely, at the right pace probably starting after next season.

A whole task force couldn't come up with anything just to appease half a dozen clubs with vested interests at pace even though they had a vested interest. So bashing on in a similar vein isn't really on.



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[edinburghhibee]

While obviously Hamilton vs Motherwell or Ayr vs Kilmarnock are big games for the clubs involved, are they really more attractive to everyone else than, say, Hamilton vs St Johnstone?

Have you ever gone out of your way to watch a Lanarkshire derby?

Lanarkshire Derby no but the last few Ayrshire derbys I’ve seen have been brilliant.


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[jacomo]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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For me, this is the model that could really shake up Scottish football.

An even more radical model would be two divisions of 16, with a regional set up below that to reduce costs and create more derbies across the country.

But it needs proper thought and consultation... at least a season away.

[edinburghhibee]

Other than the derbies you mention, are you really excited about 100 or so fans from Ayr and Inverness coming to ER. There’s enough dross in the Premiership already without adding more.

I also get that point but having gone on numerous occasions to both Inverness and Ayr following hibs their both cracking away days for supporters.


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[Vault Boy]

I think there are likely some credible reasons for wanting a larger Premiership in the long term. Without putting much thought or research into it, my gut feeling is that I'd be in favour of a larger top league restructure at some point in the future. I'd need to consider all the details once it's being credibly discussed.

However, it needs to be carefully planned - not brought into fruition on a whim in order to appease a couple of entitled, shameful clubs. A restructure should be voted on, designed and prepared for well in advance of the start of a new season. It would have to be a methodical, agreeable process that would justifiably benefit Scottish football holistically.

Right now, that kind of restructure just isn't viable. There are media contracts to fulfil, existential problems to address and far more important issues to focus on, and more importantly, the clubs don't want it.

I certainly don't think the OP is an absurd idea, a 16 team league has been posited before now and it will be discussed in the future I'm sure. Timing, however, is everything.

[edinburghhibee]

Where do you suggest Hibs make cuts? Playing budget? Sell Boyle? Maybe just get rid of East mains and go back to public parks?


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Would you definitely need to make cuts? Possibly initially but Like I say the possibility of extra sponsorship coupled with the fact it might be an exciting product for supporters may see an upturn in ST and club sponsorship.





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[Cabbage East]

“Imagine the excitement”

[04Sauzee]

The OP is putting his opinion across and backing it up with why he feels it's a good idea, at least give him something constructive back!

Maybe he has on the other threads that reconstruction has been spoken about?

[Waxy]

More chance of meaningless games with 16.
After 30 another 7 games so you still have that imbalance.
Only 3 old firm games so they’d say no to that straight away.
Imo we’ll never be able to get away with anything other than the 12 we have now.
We could move upto 12 in the lower leagues though imo.
Have said all this in the other thread.

[greenpaper55]

Pretty sure it was a 16 team league when we last won the title, worth a try as nowadays ST's make up the bulk of the crowd rather than relying on walk ups like back in the day.

[Bobby's Cinema]

I used to be in favour of reconstruction for the point of view of playing more teams, not the same 3/4 times every year.

But I believe the excitement created from the current setup in terms all most of the league having something to play, even more so since introduction of the playoffs supersedes this.

Also after years of thinking the split was crack pot and ridiculous I have grown to like it.

[scoopyboy]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]



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It's a reasonable debate but I think Hibs would be against it.

We want / need financially the Old Firm and Hearts coming twice a season (yes, I realise Hearts probably wont be next season)

Larger League will undoubtably have lots of meaningless games which will hit the clubs financially. Imagine Hibs sitting 9th around Xmas with no chance of relegation or place in Europe. Crowds would dwindle and so would interest of many season ticket holders which could be dangerous at renewal time in March.

[high bee]

Would you definitely need to make cuts? Possibly initially but Like I say the possibility of extra sponsorship coupled with the fact it might be an exciting product for supporters may see an upturn in ST and club sponsorship.

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Agree this could have legs but only in a couple of years. Like you say it would probably affect finances initially and the initial period is the most important given the current financial climate. I just don’t see how we could take any risks at the moment, clubs may go bust due to this and their main defence against this is the ability to plan their finances, that’s difficult enough as it it, add in a reconstruction and all the tv/sponsorship uncertainty that adds then it makes the jobs so much harder.

As for having a team sit out every week, it would take some planning to ensure the team sitting out the last week has nothing to play for. If we find ourselves in a situation where it’s easy to predict this at the start of the split then the league has failed IMO because there are already teams with nothing to play very early and at the point where the split is meant to make it more exciting.

[weecounty hibby]

It's a no from me. Scotland just doesn't have enough clubs who are big/good enough to form an 18 team league and 16 doesn't work due to number if games, unless you make it really convuluted. 14 is a non starter so I think 12 is about right. It allows the 2nd tier to be a competitive league and allows for the best if that league to replqce the worst if the prem and not really effecting the overall quality and in some cases improve it. 18 teams means that you would end up relegating a team that is probably a large number of points behind to be replaced with another club who will end up the same. All you are doing is bringing in cannon fodder for the likes of celtic. They can already pump teams in our league by 4/5/6 and you expect it to be better by potentially promoting clubs like Alloa, Brechin, Clyde etc?
This year's league was actually pretty good, top, Euro places, top 6 and relegation were all pretty close run and looked like going to the wire
Change for the better is good, change for change sake is madness and change just to save the tarts is utter madness and irresponsible

[H18 SFR]

Absolutely drooling at the mouth here at the thought of playing Ayr Utd, ICT, and the Dundee teams at a quiet Easter Road rather than derbies or games against the old firm.

In all seriousness and I do not wish to offend, do you really think we and many other clubs could survive on only 15 homes games a year minus the games I've mentioned above?

[Barney McGrew]

The problem with a 16 or 18 team league where teams only play each other twice is that it would mean more than half the teams would be playing meaningless games for most of the season.

Take out two teams fighting for the title, three or four trying for European places and the same number trying avoid relegation and half the league are playing for nothing other than the odd local derby or Old Firm game.

[hibeerealist]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]

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Yes and I think a lot of fans nationwide would support this - 16 or 18 team Premier division. This would give teams a chance to stand up to the cheeks as you would not play them 8 times in a season.

Only problem is...... Cheeks will NEVER back this and likely that our broadcasters will not back it either, so we dream on.

[calumhibee1]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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If it’s for one season then no.

If it’s for more than one season then I’d be undecided. A lot of the benefits - the big derbies etc would be lost half the time anyway with teams like Ayr, Dundee, Inverness, RC etc being relegated most seasons. Throw in less OF games for everybody else and I’m not that big a fan of the idea.

I think for me the main issue is that for us to have a bigger top league it would just end up filled with wee diddy clubs who offer very little.

[Peevemor]

I really don't see the attraction.

Less "big" games
More "wee" games - potentially against teams like Arbroath or Morton trying to scrape together every point possible to avoid relegation.
Loads of mid-table meaningless games

Nah!

[danhibees1875]

I used to be in favour of reconstruction for the point of view of playing more teams, not the same 3/4 times every year.

But I believe the excitement created from the current setup in terms all most of the league having something to play, even more so since introduction of the playoffs supersedes this.

Also after years of thinking the split was crack pot and ridiculous I have grown to like it.

I agree with all of this.

I think we have the best solution as it is with 12 then a split.

Although I do flip flop on that as I used to be set on 16.

[The 90+2]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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Does anyone even watch the “highland derby” when they play in the championship or the Prem? Even the Dundee Derby got a bit rubbish and the viewing figures wouldn’t have been that impressive this season, it was poor football by two poor teams. Killie v Ayr would be good to see once but it would hardly capture the imagination of the country. Would these games even be televised? Major doubtful, Sky would show Celtic at Hamilton or Rangers in Paisley.


Then the season would be done, relegation would happen, some other club like Morton or Queens come up and we would be left with 16 teams for years and years. A lot less exciting games for the club personally and overall wishing for the return of even Aberdeen v Rangers on the TV two times a season or the excitement of Celtic at Tynie instead of a bigot fest down Ayr live on a Sunday when the huns visit and we’ve trecked up to Inverness instead of Celtic Park. I hardly think the players themselves would rather do that either.

Loss of commercial revenue through hospitality would be another reason for no, as well the obvious lack of away fans Inverness and Ayr or whoever would bring instead of the Cat a games then there’s less money in a tv deal.

No for me, the novelty would wear off very, very soon.

Plus, I like the league the way it is. Very little people have complained about the format for years now let alone reconstruction chat. It’s to save one team in the top league - the *****st side nonetheless who have over spent again.

[MWHIBBIES]

a 16 team league? No chance, that would lead to 5 rounds of pointless games and who wants to watch 10 rounds of pointless games? Sponsors and tv companies don't want to broadcast 15 rounds of pointless games.

Really though, I'd rather watch each team once at home than possibly some teams 3 times and then cup ties too. Current league is horrible. You're only ever 3 weeks away from playing the same team you played 3 weeks ago.

[weecounty hibby]

a 16 team league? No chance, that would lead to 5 rounds of pointless games and who wants to watch 10 rounds of pointless games? Sponsors and tv companies don't want to broadcast 15 rounds of pointless games.

Really though, I'd rather watch each team once at home than possibly some teams 3 times and then cup ties too. Current league is horrible. You're only ever 3 weeks away from playing the same team you played 3 weeks ago.

Copy and paste from you on another thread!

[QUOTE=MWHIBBIES;6169932]If you cant stay on topic, stop posting. Embarrassing stuff.[/QUOTE

[MWHIBBIES]

Copy and paste from you on another thread!


If you cant stay on topic, stop posting. Embarrassing stuff.

Nice fail quote there :faf: you tried though. I fixed it for you.

My comment was on topic, it is entirely about reconstruction. Which is what the thread is about. You are the one who has now taken it off topic.

[Keith_M]

Quite a lot of the larger leagues are eighteen teams, playing each other once at home and once away.

This would be my preferred option but, sadly, we're probably too small a country for this to work. There just aren't eighteen reasonably large sides in Scotland.


We basically have two massive clubs, a handful of medium size clubs and about thirty really small clubs

[weecounty hibby]

Nice fail quote there :faf: you tried though. I fixed it for you.

My comment was on topic, it is entirely about reconstruction. Which is what the thread is about. You are the one who has now taken it off topic.
No, what you tried to do was to be a smart arse. The OP asked a reasonable question and pretty much most on the thread have answered giving reasoned debate about what they felt was wrong, or right, with his proposal. You in the other hand.............

[MWHIBBIES]

No, what you tried to do was to be a smart arse. The OP asked a reasonable question and pretty much most on the thread have answered giving reasoned debate about what they felt was wrong, or right, with his proposal. You in the other hand.............

Me on the other hand posted a light hearted joke then my opinion. This thread isn't about me so stop posting about me. My PMs are always open if you want to talk to me, stop ruining threads on the main board.

[greenpaper55]

When Hibs play there are no meaningless games ! One of the points of a bigger league would enable teams to improve themselves and their players so the games would be of a better standard, are you telling me that teams such as Dunfermline, Dundee, Partick and Falkirk do not merit a place in a top league ?

[calumhibee1]

When Hibs play there are no meaningless games ! One of the points of a bigger league would enable teams to improve themselves and their players so the games would be of a better standard, are you telling me that teams such as Dunfermline, Dundee, Partick and Falkirk do not merit a place in a top league ?

Yup. Hence why they’re not in it.

There’s not enough money in Scottish football and there would be even less with less OF games. Diluting the money wouldn’t improve our game and lead to 18 or so very decent teams, it would just make our current mainstay top tier teams even worse imo.

[Barney McGrew]

When Hibs play there are no meaningless games ! One of the points of a bigger league would enable teams to improve themselves and their players so the games would be of a better standard, are you telling me that teams such as Dunfermline, Dundee, Partick and Falkirk do not merit a place in a top league ?

At the moment Partick and Falkirk don’t even merit a place in the second top league.

[Keith_M]

When Hibs play there are no meaningless games ! One of the points of a bigger league would enable teams to improve themselves and their players so the games would be of a better standard, are you telling me that teams such as Dunfermline, Dundee, Partick and Falkirk do not merit a place in a top league ?


There would a be a rotation of teams in the top league, so you'd really need twenty plus clubs.

When assessing the benefit of possible top league clubs, you have to look at: What are there average attendances? Do they have a decent size travelling support?

I know that's quite a cynical way of looking at it but we need to both improve the image of the game in Scotland, with decent size home crowds, and also have the financial benefit to other clubs of a reasonably large number of visiting Fans.

[easty]

Any league reconstruction that involves more teams in the league and less Old Firm league games a season, is just a pointless discussion.

Why would teams vote for less sponsorship money, to be shared out between more teams? Where's the incentive to vote for that?

Would it be more entertaining top play teams only twice a season? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not convinced.

Is it worth trying it out just to save hearts from the relegation they deserve? Nah

[Ronniekirk]

Just not the right time too many agendas from other clubs just now .0nce this is all over and things back to The New Normal whatever that is , then if still an appetite then , look at it then


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[weecounty hibby]

When Hibs play there are no meaningless games ! One of the points of a bigger league would enable teams to improve themselves and their players so the games would be of a better standard, are you telling me that teams such as Dunfermline, Dundee, Partick and Falkirk do not merit a place in a top league ?

You merit a place in the top league by being good enough to be in it. None of the teams mentioned are at the moment. Falkirk are in the 3rd division!! They finished being Alia last year and Partick are behind them this year.
You also don't make the league better by promoting teams who will be shooting practice for celtic and the hun

[Brightside]

Im all for it....just not now. Maybe in 2 years time... and i want a 20 team league 2 divs. Scottish football is boring now with the amount of teams we play each other. It will never happen obv as TV money is dictating the structure.

[Since452]

As the heading says, I know from reading the posts on here and the opposite thread that this isn’t really a popular opinion however it’s mine.

It would need to be a 16 team premiership.

The reason for this is imagine the excitement Glasgow Derby, Edinburgh Derby, Lanarkshire Derby, Dundee Derby, highland Derby and the Ayrshire Derby all in one season not to mention us v huns, dons v huns, them over the road v Celtic.

The season would in my opinion be exciting every weekend big games big rivalries.

The cons are the most important part ie missing the big 4 away supports every season and money that brings but I think it would be more encouraging to sponsorship deals both for the league and hibs.

Anyone of the same opinion or am I pissing into the wind... as usual! [emoji28]


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12 teams is the best set up for me

[Posh Hibby]

Personally don't mind the current format. Most positions have something to play for up until the end of the season. Less games against big teams in exchange for more games against smaller championship teams isn't that appealing to me.

Moot point though, as no one is willing to jeopardise the new TV deal.

[Jdawg]

The Championship has been pretty exciting over the past few seasons too. If you can finish 4th you have a chance of going up.

[MWHIBBIES]

The Championship has been pretty exciting over the past few seasons too. If you can finish 4th you have a chance of going up.

Has any team ever come up from 4th, though? Of course there is a chance but not a realistic one.

[MrSmith]

Definitely up for an entire reconstruction of Scottish Football. A well thought out and considered change that would take a good bit of time to formulate and put into place not some half assed piece of temporary nonsense put in to save the jumbo's skin. Change from 21/22 would be acceptable.

[Green_one]

Firstly reconstruction at this time is madness as none of us knows what state the clubs will be in by 2021

Secondly no-one puts actual figures against their options. However some, if not all, cost money. For example a ‘play just twice’ league means fewer games AND the loss of the big three home games (OF and Hearts). That is potentially a lot of big crowds lost if you get top 6. How do you offset them.

This approach of individuals stating what they think would be more interesting is just preference, not argued reasoning.

I think the last few seasons with Hibs has produced excellent games and the biggest season ticket numbers since the 50s. How does reconstruction better that. How does less chance of relegation make mid table games more exciting and what difference will the chances of Hibs ever winning the league make with more teams. We seem to throw away good crowds and visits from big teams

It’s a big NO from me until it can be explained how it will be better and how that works financially. Facts not opinions please.

[greenpaper55]

You merit a place in the top league by being good enough to be in it. None of the teams mentioned are at the moment. Falkirk are in the 3rd division!! They finished being Alia last year and Partick are behind them this year.
You also don't make the league better by promoting teams who will be shooting practice for celtic and the hun

You are forgetting the fact that it is harder for the OF to win the league when we only play each other twice a season. Would that be like the shooting practice Rangers had against Hamilton who are smaller than the teams i mentioned ? I still maintain there are no easy games in football nowadays as teams have found to their cost down the years, how is it the Dutch league can work with an eighteen team league when ten of the grounds hold less that 20 k down to 7K ? I would give it a go and it might youth a chance instead of getting loan players from lower leagues and the likes.

[007]

The main thing for me is any new structure should be agreed before any league sponsorship and broadcasting deals are arranged so that all parties know what the product is they're negotiating over. That means it wouldn't come into effect until after the new Sky deal ends.

[CraigHibee]

definitely open to reconstruction if it was going to be of benefit but not just now, reconstruction was only brought to the surface as a temporary measure to save the premiership status of that bunch of puddle drinkers along gorgie way.

They just need to accept relegation and suck it up, their position is their own doing due to mismanagement and it's great :greengrin

[weecounty hibby]

You are forgetting the fact that it is harder for the OF to win the league when we only play each other twice a season. Would that be like the shooting practice Rangers had against Hamilton who are smaller than the teams i mentioned ? I still maintain there are no easy games in football nowadays as teams have found to their cost down the years, how is it the Dutch league can work with an eighteen team league when ten of the grounds hold less that 20 k down to 7K ? I would give it a go and it might youth a chance instead of getting loan players from lower leagues and the likes.

The whole thing about it being more difficult for the OF to win is rubbish. Look at Spain, Italy, Germany, France, Portugal, Holland and a slightly lesser extent even England. Okay each other twice and the biggest, richest teams win every year. Barcelona, RM. Juventus, Bayern, PSG, Ajax, PSV, . It's just not true any more. Football has moved on and is completely controlled by finance

[Jones28]

We discuss this so often and I used to be in favour but the more it goes on the less inclined I am.

12 gives us the optimum number of games, meaning there’s not much dead rubber towards the end of the season, still allows for 4 derbies, 4 old firms, 4 games against the bigger sides that generate the most income for the club.

I’d far rather see us play rangers or Celtic under the lights than Ayr or Dundee. No offence to those clubs, it just doesn’t make financial sense to reduce our numbers of games against the bigger teams.

Who plugs the gap that leaves? It won’t come from TV because the bigger games have been reduced in number, it won’t come from sponsors because they will get less exposure and it won’t come from match tickets because fewer people will go to games.

[weecounty hibby]

I think this probably shows why reconstruction, tried to be pushed through quickly to save any club was always going to fail. So many permutations, so many vested interests and so many different opinions on what would be best. This needs to be properly worked through by an independent body set up to review it. Definitely not Budgie trying to save her skin

[Future17]

This was my idea for an increased Premier, trying to balance the many competing financial interests, maintain a similar number of home games, number of OF fixtures for TV, fewer meaningless games etc. Not without its flaws right enough!

Top League:*

14 Teams – Play each other twice (once at home and once away) = 26 games.

After 26 games, league splits into 2 sections (Champions Group and Lower Group).

*Champions Group:*

6 Teams – Teams continue on points accrued after first 26 games.

Play each other twice (once at home and once away) = 10 games.

1st place = Champions and subsequent places qualify for Europe based on available spaces at end of season (after a total of 36 games).

*Lower Group:*

8 Teams – Teams continue on points accrued after first 26 games.

Play each other once = 7 games (33 games total to this point).

After 7 games, Lower Group splits into 2 sections (Euro Group and Relegation Group).

*Euro Group:*

4 Teams – Teams continue on points accrued after first 33 games.

Play each other once (home or away decided by reverse of Lower Group fixture) = 3 games (36 games total)

Winner of Euro Group plays League Cup winner over two legs for a Europa League place.

*Relegation Group:*

4 Teams – Teams continue on points accrued after first 33 games.

Play each other once (home or away decided by reverse of Lower Group fixture) = 3 games (36 games total).

Bottom club relegated. Second bottom team plays-off against second top of Championship.

[jacomo]

Yes and I think a lot of fans nationwide would support this - 16 or 18 team Premier division. This would give teams a chance to stand up to the cheeks as you would not play them 8 times in a season.

Only problem is...... Cheeks will NEVER back this and likely that our broadcasters will not back it either, so we dream on.


You might be right, but it depresses me that this debate is always framed as a zero sum game.

The OF Derby is the most valuable match in the league season, but it is probably devalued because it happens so often. If there were only 2 every season, each one would be more eagerly anticipated and almost certainly get a bigger TV audience.

Equally, the Edinburgh and Dundee derbies.

If you make Scottish football a more attractive and enticing product, attendances and audiences will rise.

The sums may still not add up. It would need some careful and detailed modelling. But IMO it is far too simple to say playing 2x a season rather than 4x a season = half the money.

[Steve20]

12 teams is more than enough for the top league in Scotland.

The excitement of playing Ayr and Inverness? No thanks.

[Bishop Hibee]

I’m not against reconstruction but it would need to be a root and branch reform not just tinkering with the top league. Secondly, now is not the time. It should be done when emotions have cooled and there is a clear roadmap out of lockdown. Lastly, given the dire economic conditions Scotland will face post-lockdown, it couldn’t have a negative financial impact on Hibs. If that’s self-serving well so be it.

[PatHead]

I would like reconstruction in the form of

Banning plastic pitches
Taking the opportunity to move to summer football
A wider distribution of prize money rather than weighted to the top two clubs

Doubtless there will be others but would need time to think of it.

[Michael]

12 teams is more than enough for the top league in Scotland.

The excitement of playing Ayr and Inverness? No thanks.

I agree. I used to be in favour of a bigger Premiership, but out experiences in the Championship changed my mind. 12 is the best fit for Scotland.

10 is too small and gets very stale.

For 14, 16, or 18 you'll be adding more and more teams that aren't up to the right standard.

[Craig_in_Prague]

Would love a 16 team league along the lines of the Czech league. 14 teams would be too similar to the 12 currently imo and 18 is probably too many.

Surprised anyone mentioned the Czech league :-)

Though the league here has had changes in recent years as well, which suggests a bigger league does mean many tedious matches for many teams.

Play offs were introduced and also subsequent format changes ..and then last season with a split of THREE groups after 30 games, before each group then playing each other once , so 5 more games.
Kind of works unless you're in the 2nd group.

Overall I'm not sure about it.

[CMurdoch]

You are forgetting the fact that it is harder for the OF to win the league when we only play each other twice a season. Would that be like the shooting practice Rangers had against Hamilton who are smaller than the teams i mentioned ? I still maintain there are no easy games in football nowadays as teams have found to their cost down the years, how is it the Dutch league can work with an eighteen team league when ten of the grounds hold less that 20 k down to 7K ? I would give it a go and it might youth a chance instead of getting loan players from lower leagues and the likes.

Re the Dutch league, they can work an 18 team league because they have a population of over 17 million people. Scotland's population is less than a third of Holland so it's not a meaningful comparison.
Not sure what ground size has to do with anything. FWIW Kilmarnock have an 18,000 capacity at Rugby Park. The problem is getting it more than a third full.

[Future17]

Surprised anyone mentioned the Czech league :-)

Though the league here has had changes in recent years as well, which suggests a bigger league does mean many tedious matches for many teams.

Play offs were introduced and also subsequent format changes ..and then last season with a split of THREE groups after 30 games, before each group then playing each other once , so 5 more games.
Kind of works unless you're in the 2nd group.

Overall I'm not sure about it.

That's the difficulty - how do you make those games meaningful other than financially for final placings? It's very difficult to do anything that isn't to the detriment of the teams in the top group.

[O'Rourke3]

Dont think reconstruction is on the cards. I still quite like the idea of 16. The issue generally is Hibs will be mid table with nothing to play for rather than thinking we could be at the top and every game meaning something. Twa cheeks win out everytime over 4 games. A win at ER and a Draw in Glasgow means we get plus 3 not minus 3 on each of them. Other teams will take points off the OF. No surprise if they end up winning but could be a lot closer.
16 gives more space for cups and European competition. Less games overall so ticket prices likely to go up, but they go up every year.

Sent from my SM-T580 using Tapatalk

[Since452]

I like the 12 team set up. You're either fighting for Europe, fighting relegation or fighting to get in top 6. Exciting either way. Keeps every club on its toes.

[CMurdoch]

This was my idea for an increased Premier, trying to balance the many competing financial interests, maintain a similar number of home games, number of OF fixtures for TV, fewer meaningless games etc. Not without its flaws right enough!

Top League:*

14 Teams – Play each other twice (once at home and once away) = 26 games.

After 26 games, league splits into 2 sections (Champions Group and Lower Group).

*Champions Group:*

6 Teams – Teams continue on points accrued after first 26 games.

Play each other twice (once at home and once away) = 10 games.

1st place = Champions and subsequent places qualify for Europe based on available spaces at end of season (after a total of 36 games).

*Lower Group:*

8 Teams – Teams continue on points accrued after first 26 games.

Play each other once = 7 games (33 games total to this point).

After 7 games, Lower Group splits into 2 sections (Euro Group and Relegation Group).

*Euro Group:*

4 Teams – Teams continue on points accrued after first 33 games.

Play each other once (home or away decided by reverse of Lower Group fixture) = 3 games (36 games total)

Winner of Euro Group plays League Cup winner over two legs for a Europa League place.

*Relegation Group:*

4 Teams – Teams continue on points accrued after first 33 games.

Play each other once (home or away decided by reverse of Lower Group fixture) = 3 games (36 games total).

Bottom club relegated. Second bottom team plays-off against second top of Championship.

I like lots of that.
Only problem is that it gives the top teams 2 less matches than at present. That means less money for the top clubs and one less game for season ticket holders which pumps up the price per game.
Make it a 7 and 7 split after 26 matches and you get the same number of games for the top teams as at present. Only small issue is each team rests for 2 of the last 14 rounds of fixtures, however, given teams are playing twice a week at that point of the season it is a minor anomaly and it sorts out the current anomaly with post split fixtures where we end up playing teams 3 times away and once at home etc.

However, reconstruction can't happen for at least 2 seasons as a result of the combination of the pandemic and the new TV deal. Scottish football and the SPFL have been waiting a decade for a decent TV deal and can't blow it now. Sky Sports subscriptions are being hit by the non playing of football and their lawyers and money men will be desperate for a reason to renegotiate contracts. Reconstruction of our top league would hand that to them on a plate, hence the SPFL crow-barring the vote through on the 10th April. Hearts are collateral for the good of the Scottish game. There is nothing personal with the SPFL, Hibs or anyone else. It's simply prudent business in all the circumstances and the SPFL have rightly kept their eyes on the prize.

[CLASS OF 72 -73]

12 teams is more than enough for the top league in Scotland.

The excitement of playing Ayr and Inverness? No thanks.


Current 12 is pretty crap but financially the most viable. 16 would be the most attractive for me.
Don't buy no excitement in playing the likes of Ayr and ICT. Not so long ago we were in the championship and struggled to get out of it but won the Scottish cup while in there.
Also I can't think of a team in the current 12 that we could say home or away we'll definitely beat them. If Hamilton Livingston and St Mirren can survive in the premier then so can ICT or Ayr.

[greenpaper55]

I like the 12 team set up. You're either fighting for Europe, fighting relegation or fighting to get in top 6. Exciting either way. Keeps every club on its toes.

This is what's wrong with the league, it's all about the fear factor and because of this teams have no games to blood young players. If a team has a bad run before Christmas it's down to England to get a few loan players in year after year, Everything is fire fighting the drop or not getting near the European places and this is disastrous for the future of Scottish football.

[HibeeLR]

Surprised anyone mentioned the Czech league :-)

Though the league here has had changes in recent years as well, which suggests a bigger league does mean many tedious matches for many teams.

Play offs were introduced and also subsequent format changes ..and then last season with a split of THREE groups after 30 games, before each group then playing each other once , so 5 more games.
Kind of works unless you're in the 2nd group.

Overall I'm not sure about it.

I became interested in Czech football after spending the first half of 2019 studying in Prague. Managed to get to many Slavia games on their way to the double. I admit i'm still not 100% sure on the exact workings, however the europa playoffs (used in Belgium also I believe) really appeal to me. Just my preference, think it would spice up the middle of the table and make the fight for Europe a little more interesting. The more options we consider, the better I guess.

[Spike Mandela]

People act like we’ve never had reconstruction.

We’ve had 18 team league then 10, then 12 then yoyoing between 10 and 12 until we arrived at current setup with split after 3 cycle of games.. Imo we have reached the optimum setup., with imperfections but many pluses.

My personal preference would be 18 team setup but it is a non starter as some teams want more games against RanTic and mid table meaning less games would abound for too many clubs.

10 team league was too restrictive and the fear factor of relegation led to a cautious, unexpansive game with little entertainment.

The proposal for a 14 team league with a 6/8 split is ridiculous imo with potential to be out of euro race by early February leading to a long period of meaningless games and crowds dropping off.

A 16 team league has just too few games and we are starting to get into the realms of restructure for restructures sake.

The current setup has been good to us and costly to us when we have been poor. In the chase for Europe right into April or nervy but exciting games to save our skin including playoffs.

Any change right now is not for the better of the game but to save relegated clubs. Understandable, I would be the same in their position. However, somebody has to be the grown ups in the room and genuinely do what is best for Scottish football. Imo that is status quo.

[inglisavhibs]

12 teams is more than enough for the top league in Scotland.

The excitement of playing Ayr and Inverness? No thanks.

People are too young to remember that the 18 club league nearly finished Scottish Football. Far too many meaningless games which nobody was going to. Would i rather go and watch another game with Aberdeen, Hearts, Rangers or Celtic or replace them with Ayr, Morton, Raith and whoever. Simple answer and despite what fans say they will never attend these games in big numbers as there is little atmosphere and the whole thing is low key. Current set up has it's faults but it's the best we will get.

[chippy]

After today’s vote new proposals have been leaked to me inside a charity bag that just popped through the door, 3 Leagues 27, 2, 13 . Genius

[Pete]

Tin hat on here too but If it was up to me I'd have reconstruction for a season or two to ensure clubs were rewarded for their achievements and none were punished due to these crazy circumstances.

Relegating teams when they have a chance of survival isn't fair, as is null and voiding seasons when teams are set to win titles and promotions. Some of what's happened in Europe and in the lower leagues in england has been scandalous.

I know there are other factors such as money and TV deals but the fact that its Hearts who are going to be relegated doesn't change the feeling that it's slightly unfair.

[jacomo]

Tin hat on here too but If it was up to me I'd have reconstruction for a season or two to ensure clubs were rewarded for their achievements and none were punished due to these crazy circumstances.

Relegating teams when they have a chance of survival isn't fair, as is null and voiding seasons when teams are set to win titles and promotions. Some of what's happened in Europe and in the lower leagues in england has been scandalous.

I know there are other factors such as money and TV deals but the fact that its Hearts who are going to be relegated doesn't change the feeling that it's slightly unfair.


Shame Budge never came up with a workable proposal then eh?

I think a 14 team top flight would damage the game and damage our club. Is that fair?

[Pete]

Would a 14 team top flight really damage the game and our club? How so?

[Future17]

I like lots of that.
Only problem is that it gives the top teams 2 less matches than at present. That means less money for the top clubs and one less game for season ticket holders which pumps up the price per game.
Make it a 7 and 7 split after 26 matches and you get the same number of games for the top teams as at present. Only small issue is each team rests for 2 of the last 14 rounds of fixtures, however, given teams are playing twice a week at that point of the season it is a minor anomaly and it sorts out the current anomaly with post split fixtures where we end up playing teams 3 times away and once at home etc.

Yeah, you could do it that way. I prefer my way because I think all teams should play their final league game at the same time, otherwise you run the risk of teams doing each other favours when they know what result suits both teams.

We currently play 18 home league games on average every second season do we not? Not much of a change on that front.


Shame Budge never came up with a workable proposal then eh?

I think a 14 team top flight would damage the game and damage our club. Is that fair?

You've mentioned this a few times, but did the task force not get shut down by the Prem clubs before it had a chance to present any proposal? God knows you can criticise the woman for a lot, but I think this is pushing it.

[inglisavhibs]

Yeah, you could do it that way. I prefer my way because I think all teams should play their final league game at the same time, otherwise you run the risk of teams doing each other favours when they know what result suits both teams.

We currently play 18 home league games on average every second season do we not? Not much of a change on that front.



You've mentioned this a few times, but did the task force not get shut down by the Prem clubs before it had a chance to present any proposal? God knows you can criticise the woman for a lot, but I think this is pushing it.

She didn't have an agreed proposal with the lower league clubs. Clyde came out yesterday and said so. That said any reconstruction is very difficult to get agreement on.

[chippy]

I became interested in Czech football after spending the first half of 2019 studying in Prague. Managed to get to many Slavia games on their way to the double. I admit i'm still not 100% sure on the exact workings, however the europa playoffs (used in Belgium also I believe) really appeal to me. Just my preference, think it would spice up the middle of the table and make the fight for Europe a little more interesting. The more options we consider, the better I guess.

Yep the Belgian model combines 16 team league and then Top 6, middle 8 and bottom 2 split. Personally I’d tweak it to 6,6 4 but it seems to work for them. It was touted by RP many moons ago

[Spike Mandela]

Tin hat on here too but If it was up to me I'd have reconstruction for a season or two to ensure clubs were rewarded for their achievements and none were punished due to these crazy circumstances.

Relegating teams when they have a chance of survival isn't fair, as is null and voiding seasons when teams are set to win titles and promotions. Some of what's happened in Europe and in the lower leagues in england has been scandalous.

I know there are other factors such as money and TV deals but the fact that its Hearts who are going to be relegated doesn't change the feeling that it's slightly unfair.

To expand the top league for a season you have to increase the chance of relegation for teams when the league is reverted back to a lower number of teams. Do you think it is fair to increase the chances of teams getting relegated next year to save another team this year?

[Pete]

To expand the top league for a season you have to increase the chance of relegation for teams when the league is reverted back to a lower number of teams. Do you think it is fair to increase the chances of teams getting relegated next year to save another team this year?

Yes, I thought of that and it definitely would be a down side. And it would be sods law that we'd have probably have a dreadful season that year :-D

[Craig_in_Prague]

Yep the Belgian model combines 16 team league and then Top 6, middle 8 and bottom 2 split. Personally I’d tweak it to 6,6 4 but it seems to work for them. It was touted by RP many moons ago

Here is 6,4,6.

[Future17]

To expand the top league for a season you have to increase the chance of relegation for teams when the league is reverted back to a lower number of teams. Do you think it is fair to increase the chances of teams getting relegated next year to save another team this year?

I think it's more fair - given that all teams will know the state of play from the start of the season - than relegating any club that's only played 80% of a full season.

[Future17]

She didn't have an agreed proposal with the lower league clubs. Clyde came out yesterday and said so. That said any reconstruction is very difficult to get agreement on.

I know, but as I understand it, the lower league clubs were in favour of reconstruction, but had certain restrictive demands. The Prem clubs were against it full stop at this point.

If reconstruction ever happens again, it'll be through discussion and negotiation. The Prem clubs weren't even open to that so it's harsh to lay blame with the task force.

[greenpaper55]

I think it's more fair - given that all teams will know the state of play from the start of the season - than relegating any club that's only played 80% of a full season.

But it's a huge health and safety issue, golf tournaments have declared early if there is an issue with players and crowd safety.

[makaveli1875]

**** that.

[Future17]

But it's a huge health and safety issue, golf tournaments have declared early if there is an issue with players and crowd safety.

I agree the season shouldn't be completed and that the decision taken is the best of the bad options available. I was just responding to the suggestion that changing relegation in advance of a full season was somehow less fair than essentially changing it during a season. I know people will argue that hasn't happened but that's just my opinion.

[Hibs Class]

I wouldn't be averse to some form of reconstruction but only if agreed at the start of the season what it would be. Changing the structure part way through the season is not on, even in exceptional circumstances like now.

[chippy]

Here is 6,4,6.

Yep could live with that, nothings perfect and it can be tweaked later

[PatHead]

I know, but as I understand it, the lower league clubs were in favour of reconstruction, but had certain restrictive demands. The Prem clubs were against it full stop at this point.

If reconstruction ever happens again, it'll be through discussion and negotiation. The Prem clubs weren't even open to that so it's harsh to lay blame with the task force.

Not how I understand it.

The lowest league clubs said they would only vote for 14,14,14 and on a permanent basis. That effectively put a stop on any league reconstruction as the likes of Clyde and clubs in a similar position would not agree.

By the time Queen Anne arrived at the Premiership clubs it was a dead duck.

Some of the Premiership clubs said they would consider discussing reconstruction but not just now. It was time to focus on the present. They did not disband the task force. They did not have the power to do that.

I can only assume Queen Anne has disbanded the task force after discussion with the other members. Surely she will be focusing on getting ready for life in the lower divisions.

[blackpoolhibs]

With so many people wanting so many different permutations, is it any wonder nobody can make their minds up within the game?

[JimboHibs]

More chance of meaningless games with 16.
After 30 another 7 games so you still have that imbalance.
Only 3 old firm games so they’d say no to that straight away.
Imo we’ll never be able to get away with anything other than the 12 we have now.
We could move upto 12 in the lower leagues though imo.
Have said all this in the other thread.

Meaningless games ?

The league under its current set up is meaningless to all bar Celtic/Rangers.

[greenpaper55]

Meaningless games ?

The league under its current set up is meaningless to all bar Celtic/Rangers.

Spot on

[Bishop Hibee]

Meaningless games ?

The league under its current set up is meaningless to all bar Celtic/Rangers.

As regards the title yes. Not as regards European places and relegation.

[JimboHibs]

As regards the title yes. Not as regards European places and relegation.

Your reply is the very reason that League Reconstruction should be considered.

[Sammy7nil]

Meaningless games ?

The league under its current set up is meaningless to all bar Celtic/Rangers.

And with a 14 or 16 team league this will change how ?

12 teams is not fantastic however it produces a good finish to the league with everyone The Rangers and Celtic still having some i go play for when the league was called.

[JimboHibs]

And with a 14 or 16 team league this will change how ?

12 teams is not fantastic however it produces a good finish to the league with everyone The Rangers and Celtic still having some i go play for when the league was called.

What about 18 team league ?

There was no meaningless games when we were in The Championship.

Its all hypothetical we could go back 10/20/30 years as an example do you think the 10/12 team league has been productive.

[Eyrie]

Expanding the league to 16, 18 or 20 teams will not change the title into a race that any other club could win ahead of the Ugly Sisters.

All that will happen is that there will be more cannon fodder for the Ugly Sisters to run up the score and more banana skins for other clubs. Look at how often Celtc have dropped points this season, and who against, compared to Motherwell or Aberdeen who are this year's best of the rest.

If any other team is in good enough form to win the league, then it will do so by taking more points off the Ugly Sisters than it drops regardless of how often those games are played.