Last clubs standing

[NAE NOOKIE]

Just for discussion ... I doubt it will get this bad, or at least I hope it wont.

What do folk think would happen if this was to play out for so long that we did lose a number of significant clubs like Motherwell, Dundee, St Mirren and Kilmarnock along with a whole tranche of smaller clubs, with a number of others permanently going from full time to part time.

Would folk be happy to be in a situation where we had all of the big city clubs with the exception of Dundee ( in this scenario ) surviving as full time outfits, but as a result playing in a league with competition so diluted finishing in the lower half of a 12 team league would be a once in every 10 years event and relegation was practically impossible, short of your club being run disastrously.

Or would folk prefer to see a situation like they have in Wales, where they have a domestic part time league and three big city clubs, if you include Wrexham, playing in the English leagues. IE Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd joined the EFL ... which in this scenario could well have a number of vacant spots left by losing clubs of their own and could be keen not to replace them with mere makeweights from the English semi pro leagues.

The other part of that is of course, what would our big city clubs see as best for their future if this possible scenario came to pass? ... would they see option 1 or option 2 as the future for them?

[DH1875]

If they had any ambition they'd go option 2. No reason why hibs couldn't be an EPL club within 5/10 years. Only issue is we'd need to take the rangers and celtic with us and they'd become even bigger pains in the archie. Tell you what would be hilarious. If after all these years of trying, the rangers went bust and the rest of us got inducted in to a British league.

[MWHIBBIES]

Things will continue as they are with very few if any clubs going bust. Hibs quite rightly will never be a part of the EFL.

[Ozyhibby]

Govt won’t let the clubs go bust. There will be bailouts if next season is delayed.


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[Viva_Palmeiras]

Govt won’t let the clubs go bust. There will be bailouts if next season is delayed.


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Where to draw the line tho’ - those clubs that between them squandered their share of the tv BILLIONS or those trying to be as self sufficient as possible such as Hamilton and Ross County?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Govt won’t let the clubs go bust. There will be bailouts if next season is delayed.


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Where to draw the line tho’ - those clubs that between them squandered their share of the tv BILLIONS or those trying to be as self sufficient as possible such as Hamilton and Ross County?

[Bostonhibby]

Got to be Hearts, they deserve it after spending all that money. They'll get to win their first treble by default.

I think that's what Mrs Doctor Budge is saying..........

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[hibbyfraelibby]

Govt won’t let the clubs go bust. There will be bailouts if next season is delayed.


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You think? 5m unemployed tax take down 35% and notional debt through the Trillion mark and they are going to bail out a non-essential industry.

You really do occupy a parallel universe at times.

[AltheHibby]

I doubt Scottish clubs would be allowed to join the English leagues from what I remember about the FIFA rules these days. Unless we went to a British league, and 1 team instead of 4, which wouldn't go down well anywhere in the UK.

[Keith_M]

If they had any ambition they'd go option 2. No reason why hibs couldn't be an EPL club within 5/10 years. Only issue is we'd need to take the rangers and celtic with us and they'd become even bigger pains in the archie. Tell you what would be hilarious. If after all these years of trying, the rangers went bust and the rest of us got inducted in to a British league.


If we were part of the English Leagues, we'd pretty much be rattling about between the 2nd and 3rd tiers.

No chance of trophies, no chance of qualifying for Europe.

[calumhibee1]

Got to be Hearts, they deserve it after spending all that money. They'll get to win their first treble by default.

I think that's what Mrs Doctor Budge is saying..........

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:greengrin

[matty_f]

I think that if it gets to the point where clubs are looking likely to go bust, both North and South of the border, then the TV companies will play a large part in ensuring their survival - after all, the football is a huge factor in their subscription numbers.

What we might see, for example, is Sky coming back to the table with BT (for example) to look at broadcast rights for all of the top flight matches if they are played behind closed doors, with the full card being made available each matchday.

The potential to increase their subscribers grows, the clubs recoup ticket revenue (or some of it) and the fans have the chance to watch the game, albeit from their sofa.

I think that is the route we'll go down before we lose a top flight team altogether.

[superfurryhibby]

You think? 5m unemployed tax take down 35% and notional debt through the Trillion mark and they are going to bail out a non-essential industry.

You really do occupy a parallel universe at times.

Agreed. Football is the least of the Government's worries, never mind the laughable notion that they will give clubs bail out money, no chance!

[Baader]

Governments won't be bailing out football clubs. They make no return and have a history of overspending and being poorly run. Governments might not even be bailing out airlines.

[G B Young]

Well if Nicola Sturgeon's implication today that matches in front of crowds won't be taking place until late 2021 proves to be accurate it's hard to believe there will be ANY clubs left standing by then:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52355228

[Peevemor]

Well if Nicola Sturgeon's implication today that matches in front of crowds won't be taking place until late 2021 proves to be accurate it's hard to believe there will be ANY clubs left standing by then:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52355228

She implies no such thing.

[G B Young]

I think that if it gets to the point where clubs are looking likely to go bust, both North and South of the border, then the TV companies will play a large part in ensuring their survival - after all, the football is a huge factor in their subscription numbers.

What we might see, for example, is Sky coming back to the table with BT (for example) to look at broadcast rights for all of the top flight matches if they are played behind closed doors, with the full card being made available each matchday.

The potential to increase their subscribers grows, the clubs recoup ticket revenue (or some of it) and the fans have the chance to watch the game, albeit from their sofa.

I think that is the route we'll go down before we lose a top flight team altogether.

I don't really get how closed doors matches can be feasible if social distancing is going to be part of our daily lives until a vaccine is found. Granted it's not on rugby's level, but physical contact is a regular feature of football.

[G B Young]

She implies no such thing.

Ms Sturgeon also cautioned that "some sort of social distancing" would still be required once restrictions are lifted, which would have consequences for attendances.
That could last, she confirmed, until a vaccine becomes available, with the latest reports suggesting that could be the second half of next year.

[matty_f]

I don't really get how closed doors matches can be feasible if social distancing is going to be part of our daily lives until a vaccine is found. Granted it's not on rugby's level, but physical contact is a regular feature of football.

You'd need to rely on testing for players and officials etc for each game, so that it was safe, I guess.

How practical/costly that is, I don't know, but you couldn't do social distancing and play football, that's simply not possible.

[Billy Whizz]

You'd need to rely on testing for players and officials etc for each game, so that it was safe, I guess.

How practical/costly that is, I don't know, but you couldn't do social distancing and play football, that's simply not possible.

Why should a footballer, for instance get tested before me

[Peevemor]

Ms Sturgeon also cautioned that "some sort of social distancing" would still be required once restrictions are lifted, which would have consequences for attendances.
That could last, she confirmed, until a vaccine becomes available, with the latest reports suggesting that could be the second half of next year.

"which would have consequences for attendances" - which to me implies spectators, ie. not behind closed doors.

[G B Young]

You'd need to rely on testing for players and officials etc for each game, so that it was safe, I guess.

How practical/costly that is, I don't know, but you couldn't do social distancing and play football, that's simply not possible.

I'm not sure I understand why, but Novak Djokovic says he would object to having to have a vaccine before being able to play again. Whether that's something that would unduly bother most sportsmen and women or whether it's just Djokovic being an oddball I don't know:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52349779?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5e9d701566886206639c16f7%26Djokovic%20 opposed%20to%20compulsory%20coronavirus%20vaccine% 262020-04-20T13%3A24%3A06.557Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:0fbf0a80-6f09-4aea-a8cb-cb0cbdd50686&pinned_post_asset_id=5e9d701566886206639c16f7&pinned_post_type=share

[Mon Dieu4]

I'm not sure I understand why, but Novak Djokovic says he would object to having to have a vaccine before being able to play again. Whether that's something that would unduly bother most sportsmen and women or whether it's just Djokovic being an oddball I don't know:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52349779?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5e9d701566886206639c16f7%26Djokovic%20 opposed%20to%20compulsory%20coronavirus%20vaccine% 262020-04-20T13%3A24%3A06.557Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:0fbf0a80-6f09-4aea-a8cb-cb0cbdd50686&pinned_post_asset_id=5e9d701566886206639c16f7&pinned_post_type=share

Might interrupt with his doping schedule ah sorry his gluten free diet

[MWHIBBIES]

If we were part of the English Leagues, we'd pretty much be rattling about between the 2nd and 3rd tiers.

No chance of trophies, no chance of qualifying for Europe.

Yep, utter mental anyone would want this and delusional to think we'd make the premier League. Would also take years to get to those tiers because we'd start much further down

[G B Young]

"which would have consequences for attendances" - which to me implies spectators, ie. not behind closed doors.

You mean fans would be allowed in but would have to be two metres apart? I guess that might be feasible, though a big logistical challenge and a major dent in the gate receipts for big matches.

It just sounds as though nobody can say with even a hint of certainty when events like football matches are likely to be played again, with or without fans.

[G B Young]

Might interrupt with his doping schedule ah sorry his gluten free diet

:wink:

[Peevemor]

You mean fans would be allowed in but would have to be two metres apart? I guess that might be feasible, though a big logistical challenge and a major dent in the gate receipts for big matches.

For me, if there's any implication it's that attendances would be restricted - not that matches will remain behind closed doors until the end of next year (which is what you said).


It just sounds as though nobody can say with even a hint of certainty when events like football matches are likely to be played again, with or without fans.

Correct.

[roo62]

I don't really get how closed doors matches can be feasible if social distancing is going to be part of our daily lives until a vaccine is found. Granted it's not on rugby's level, but physical contact is a regular feature of football.

Can just see it now 2m zonal marking and no defensive walls allowed 😂👍

[Peevemor]

Can just see it now 2m zonal marking and no defensive walls allowed 😂👍

And you have to change the ball after every header and/or throw-in.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Why should a footballer, for instance get tested before me

ultimate test of fan / player loyalty ;) we’re all human although it would appear some are more worthy than others.

[Power]

I was musing elsewhere not long ago that It might be the biggest issue right now for Scottish football - clubs and the game in Scotland surviving (‘the most important of least important things’ - after health, family, friends, community and jobs) but it’s getting minimal air time in my eyes.
It will reach a crisis point shortly down the line and casting an early and thorough lense on it would be sensible.


SPFL have today issued a timely ‘Operational steps necessary to restart football later in the year’ update https://spfl.co.uk/news/coronavirus-joint-response-group-update-20-april

[Viva_Palmeiras]

I'm not sure I understand why, but Novak Djokovic says he would object to having to have a vaccine before being able to play again. Whether that's something that would unduly bother most sportsmen and women or whether it's just Djokovic being an oddball I don't know:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52349779?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=5e9d701566886206639c16f7%26Djokovic%20 opposed%20to%20compulsory%20coronavirus%20vaccine% 262020-04-20T13%3A24%3A06.557Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:0fbf0a80-6f09-4aea-a8cb-cb0cbdd50686&pinned_post_asset_id=5e9d701566886206639c16f7&pinned_post_type=share

He’s hardly at the beginning of his career - waiting for a vaccine (still don’t have one for the original SARS or so I’ve read recently) probably would end him and the other tennis greats of his era.

[Ozyhibby]

You think? 5m unemployed tax take down 35% and notional debt through the Trillion mark and they are going to bail out a non-essential industry.

You really do occupy a parallel universe at times.

I don’t think the tax take will be a factor in how much the govt spend on this. We are already way past what is affordable. The govt will be printing money to get out of this and football will be grabbing what it can from that.
The furlough scheme has already helped bail out football and it won’t finish until the clubs get the go ahead to play again.
There will be other measures that will follow. The depth of the financial hole we are in is not quite appreciated yet but it will be soon. Govt will do whatever is needed to protect jobs and football will benefit from that.


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[JimBHibees]

He’s hardly at the beginning of his career - waiting for a vaccine (still don’t have one for the original SARS or so I’ve read recently) probably would end him and the other tennis greats of his era.

Maybe he is worried what reaction there may be with other medication he might be taking. :greengrin

[Scouse Hibee]

I don’t think the tax take will be a factor in how much the govt spend on this. We are already way past what is affordable. The govt will be printing money to get out of this and football will be grabbing what it can from that.
The furlough scheme has already helped bail out football and it won’t finish until the clubs get the go ahead to play again.
There will be other measures that will follow. The depth of the financial hole we are in is not quite appreciated yet but it will be soon. Govt will do whatever is needed to protect jobs and football will benefit from that.


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If the government were to start bailing out football clubs it would see the end of inflated wages for players surely.

[JimBHibees]

Might interrupt with his doping schedule ah sorry his gluten free diet

:greengrin

[Ozyhibby]

If the government were to start bailing out football clubs it would see the end of inflated wages for players surely.

It didn’t when they bailed out the banks. Who knows?


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[hibbyfraelibby]

I don’t think the tax take will be a factor in how much the govt spend on this. We are already way past what is affordable. The govt will be printing money to get out of this and football will be grabbing what it can from that.
The furlough scheme has already helped bail out football and it won’t finish until the clubs get the go ahead to play again.
There will be other measures that will follow. The depth of the financial hole we are in is not quite appreciated yet but it will be soon. Govt will do whatever is needed to protect jobs and football will benefit from that.


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Yeah and Warp Drives exist and Jean Luc Picard is the worlds leading expert on Romulan Wine and Klingon Opera. Engage!

[hibbyfraelibby]

It didn’t when they bailed out the banks. Who knows?


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They took controlling share in the banks they bailed out...can you see the Government taking control of certain clubs who screwed over HMRC. It would mean they owed it to themselves

[Sioux]

It didn’t when they bailed out the banks. Who knows?


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So, the Govt is going to pay out millions per month to help pay the wages of football players, many of whom have no affiliation to the UK other than the fact it just happens to be their very lucrative gravy train?

By the way, who appointed you as the resident expert in all this?

[Lago]

And you have to change the ball after every header and/or throw-in.
And a rota system for season ticket holders as they all can't be accommodated at once 😊

[Ozyhibby]

So, the Govt is going to pay out millions per month to help pay the wages of football players, many of whom have no affiliation to the UK other than the fact it just happens to be their very lucrative gravy train?

By the way, who appointed you as the resident expert in all this?

I didn’t know I had been appointed resident expert in anything.
The government is already paying out millions a month paying footballers and a whole lot more.


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[Billy Whizz]

I didn’t know I had been appointed resident expert in anything.
The government is already paying out millions a month paying footballers and a whole lot more.


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🤣🤣🤣🤣

[hibbyfraelibby]

I didn’t know I had been appointed resident expert in anything.
The government is already paying out millions a month paying footballers and a whole lot more.


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To be accurate the government has not yet paid out a single penny to finance any footballers wage as at today's date and will not until at least 6 days from now. Furlough payment claims could only be submitted from today.

[ancient hibee]

Chancellor- “So let me get this right,you want the taxpayer to bail you out so that you can continue to pay people £40 Million a year to play football.”

[Ozyhibby]

Chancellor- “So let me get this right,you want the taxpayer to bail you out so that you can continue to pay people £40 Million a year to play football.”

There is no way wages at that level would be covered.
I don’t see the current furlough scheme ending anytime soon though, last thing the govt want is mass unemployment.


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[ancient hibee]

There is no way wages at that level would be covered.
I don’t see the current furlough scheme ending anytime soon though, last thing the govt want is mass unemployment.


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That’s my point.There is no chance of a bailout of the football industry.

[matty_f]

Why should a footballer, for instance get tested before me

The tests would be done privately, you'd not really come into that equation.

[matty_f]

I don’t think the tax take will be a factor in how much the govt spend on this. We are already way past what is affordable. The govt will be printing money to get out of this and football will be grabbing what it can from that.
The furlough scheme has already helped bail out football and it won’t finish until the clubs get the go ahead to play again.
There will be other measures that will follow. The depth of the financial hole we are in is not quite appreciated yet but it will be soon. Govt will do whatever is needed to protect jobs and football will benefit from that.


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UEFA are more likely to prop clubs up than governments are. They announced they had money to use for this earlier in the month IIRC.

[NAE NOOKIE]

So, the Govt is going to pay out millions per month to help pay the wages of football players, many of whom have no affiliation to the UK other than the fact it just happens to be their very lucrative gravy train?

By the way, who appointed you as the resident expert in all this?

Wow .. what was the point of that, the guy is entitled to his opinion.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I doubt Scottish clubs would be allowed to join the English leagues from what I remember about the FIFA rules these days. Unless we went to a British league, and 1 team instead of 4, which wouldn't go down well anywhere in the UK.

We continue to look at this situation as if things are going to be the same as they ever were before Covid 19 became a thing. Like everybody else from individuals to governments to business the football landscape will be very different when things begin to start moving again. FIFA like everybody else will be forced to face new realities.

What may or may not have been allowed or acceptable before this year will have to change drastically IMO.

It was hinted today that crowds might not be allowed before at least mid 2021 ... Closed doors pay per view games might sustain the EPL giants and the old firm with huge fan bases until then, but could 50% or more of the UK's clubs say the same? .... I doubt it.

I just cant see the government bailing out football clubs ... we even have discussions on here where match going football loving fans rail at the distastefulness of public money being spent on football when it could go to other far more ethical and worthy causes. Just check any thread where the rebuilding of Hampden gets mentioned in the same breath as 'public funds' for the proof of that. How would the overwhelming majority of the public with nothing, either financial or emotional, invested in the beautiful game react to public funds being spent on sport when the country is utterly skint and its tough to keep even vital services going?

Why would any government invite the backlash such a move would inevitably cause .. it would be political suicide.

If mid 2021 turns out to be the reality of it then us and any surviving big Scottish clubs might not just be looking down south as a possible new direction, it might become absolutely vital that we do so, with no chance of European football for the foreseeable future being the least of our worries by then. As I said, that door which was closed to us pre 2020 might be wide open if the carnage decimated leagues 1 and 2 in England, which it may very well do.

PS ... I saw someone above say UEFA would be a possible avenue for propping up clubs ... Aye, the clubs they have always sucked up to like Real Madrid et al beacause they are a huge draw on TV and have worldwide audiences ...... Hibs, St Mirren, Yeovil Town, Burton Albion ... no bloody chance.

[ScottB]

I think step one is ending the current season, clubs will shed every player they can, and likely do very little business. A brutal time for many footballers, no doubt, but a lot of Scottish clubs will heavily reduce their costs. Can’t see much desire to commit to new contracts until a new season starting is a certainty.

Rangers, by their own admission dependent on outside or director funding, and Hearts running on fan and benefactor donations, are arguably the most vulnerable, as those sources dry up in the wider economic crisis, if either fails to cut back sufficiently, which a Rangers obsessed with stopping 10 in a row seems unlikely to do, they seem more likely to go bust than lower league sides who were already running on a pittance in relative terms.

[MWHIBBIES]

We continue to look at this situation as if things are going to be the same as they ever were before Covid 19 became a thing. Like everybody else from individuals to governments to business the football landscape will be very different when things begin to start moving again. FIFA like everybody else will be forced to face new realities.

What may or may not have been allowed or acceptable before this year will have to change drastically IMO.

It was hinted today that crowds might not be allowed before at least mid 2021 ... Closed doors pay per view games might sustain the EPL giants and the old firm with huge fan bases until then, but could 50% or more of the UK's clubs say the same? .... I doubt it.

I just cant see the government bailing out football clubs ... we even have discussions on here where match going football loving fans rail at the distastefulness of public money being spent on football when it could go to other far more ethical and worthy causes. Just check any thread where the rebuilding of Hampden gets mentioned in the same breath as 'public funds' for the proof of that. How would the overwhelming majority of the public with nothing, either financial or emotional, invested in the beautiful game react to public funds being spent on sport when the country is utterly skint and its tough to keep even vital services going?

Why would any government invite the backlash such a move would inevitably cause .. it would be political suicide.

If mid 2021 turns out to be the reality of it then us and any surviving big Scottish clubs might not just be looking down south as a possible new direction, it might become absolutely vital that we do so, with no chance of European football for the foreseeable future being the least of our worries by then. As I said, that door which was closed to us pre 2020 might be wide open if the carnage decimated leagues 1 and 2 in England, which it may very well do.

PS ... I saw someone above say UEFA would be a possible avenue for propping up clubs ... Aye, the clubs they have always sucked up to like Real Madrid et al beacause they are a huge draw on TV and have worldwide audiences ...... Hibs, St Mirren, Yeovil Town, Burton Albion ... no bloody chance.

Why would UEFA protect Hibs when we make them zero money?

If Hibs had the choice, would we pay to keep Christian Doidge or some under 10s lad?

[FilipinoHibs]

There is going to be no live football until a vaccine is widely available. This will be in about 18 months. Clubs in Scotland will have no income. The main creditors a football club has is their players. I can see the SPFL rules being changed to allow clubs to pay off their players before an insolvency event happens. Clubs would then go into hibernation until a truncated 2021/2022 season can start. New TV deals will be done and season tickets sold. Clubs can then start recruiting players. Management and other staff could be put on a retainer during this period. Season 2020/21 is not going to happen. Most people will be hard strapped for cash until the vaccine is here. Even when it arrives football will not be people's first priority. This virus is going to change the face of the game.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Why would UEFA protect Hibs when we make them zero money?

If Hibs had the choice, would we pay to keep Christian Doidge or some under 10s lad?

Which is exactly what I'm saying .... If UEFA do have any money it sure as hell wont be going to the likes of us :rolleyes: