NO to reconstruction

[Waxy]

A big NO. Nothing wrong with the leagues how they are.
No one has said anything about reconstruction for years.
NO NO NO.

[Humo]

Personally would like reconstruction. Playing the same teams 4 times a season is a bore.

16 or 18 teams playing twice would be more interesting and more competitive.



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[JimBHibees]

Don't think there is any need for it and certainly shouldn't be rushed through without given serious thought or reasonable length of time in considering it.

[Blaster]

No to reconstruction this coming season

I’d be happy with reconstruction for season 21/22 where it’s agreed for the right reasons

[Heisenberg]

It’ll be way too difficult for them to get it voted through. Complete non starter.

[we are hibs]

Hibs need to vote against it. I have no problem with it happening in the future but a forced, rushed through restructuring to suit certain clubs isnt on and i fully expect hibs to go against it.

[Hibeesmad]

Hearts relegated yet?

[tamig]

Personally would like reconstruction. Playing the same teams 4 times a season is a bore.

16 or 18 teams playing twice would be more interesting and more competitive.



Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

And losing home games would be palatable in what way to the clubs? Not to mention a TV deal with half the OF games. That set ups a non- starter.

[Humo]

And losing home games would be palatable in what way to the clubs? Not to mention a TV deal with half the OF games. That set ups a non- starter.That's a fair point. Unfortunately I can't see a team outwith the OF ever winning the league in it's current format

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[04Sauzee]

Would the TV deal allow for reconstruction

[AFKA5814_Hibs]

I wouldn't say there's nothing wrong with the league system, the splits always been a daft idea, but we shouldn't be rushed into a decision on reconstruction. Hearts and the rest of the relegated teams will just have to suck it up the now and maybe a change put in place for the following season.

[GonzoReturns]

Would the TV deal allow for reconstruction

The tv deal will all be dependent on the OF playing each other 4 tines a season. Any reconstruction will always need to have that.

[Kojock]

A 16 or 18 team league is a massive no from me. I remember the 18 team league and the second half of the season was a complete bore fest with so many meaningless games. Be careful what you wish for.

[Hibee87]

The tv deal will all be dependent on the OF playing each other 4 tines a season. Any reconstruction will always need to have that.

I read this a lot the 4 game thing. I don't want reconstruction, not rushed now anyway.
But how can sky put that in a deal? As unlikely as this could happen (stranger things have I e Leicester winning the league) but say one of the OF finished bottom 6? What would sky do then? Not pay out cause the contract states there must be 4 OF games?

[Humo]

A 16 or 18 team league is a massive no from me. I remember the 18 team league and the second half of the season was a complete bore fest with so many meaningless games. Be careful what you wish for.I think theres ways to fix or at least improve it.

Extending and expanding the playoffs would increase games for lower placed teams and ensure that all games in the league remain meaningful for longer

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[JimBHibees]

Only votes received by 5pm should be counted.

[04Sauzee]

By how much would the money Hibs receive in a 12 team league be diluted if it was a 14/16 team league. How much could we miss out on?

[whiskyhibby]

Only votes received by 5pm should be counted.


apparently the rules allow for 28 day response

[GonzoReturns]

I read this a lot the 4 game thing. I don't want reconstruction, not rushed now anyway.
But how can sky put that in a deal? As unlikely as this could happen (stranger things have I e Leicester winning the league) but say one of the OF finished bottom 6? What would sky do then? Not pay out cause the contract states there must be 4 OF games?

Don’t disagree but end of day Sky are only really interested in the OF. They will make plenty of noise about that not being the case the fact is it’s only really about the OF.

[The 90+2]

Reconstruction to save Hearts 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[Ozyhibby]

It will need to be a very impressive proposal for reconstruction that gets 11 of the premiership clubs to vote for it. It’s so unlikely that it’s barely worth giving it any thought.


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[Roxyhibee]

Anyone wanting an 18 or 16 league Premiership in Scotland has obviously never experienced it. By the time late February ish comes, the season can easily be over for 9 or 10 of those teams. Low crowds, meaningless games, it’s really really not good for a lot of fans or as a tv product.

Our current system of playing each other 3 or 4 times a season isn’t ideal but the top 6 / bottom 6 play offs right to the end between 12 is by far the most exciting and meaningful fixtures we can produce in our country. 14 would just be pointless.

[DH1875]

No idea how a 14 team league would work as not enough games. 16 and especially 18 would be to many.

[Sir David Gray]

Only votes received by 5pm should be counted.

Unenforceable. The 5pm deadline was only a guideline as the rules state clubs have 28 days to vote on proposals.

[RoYO!]

All it would take is one club to veto it.... over to you hibs!

[jacomo]

No to reconstruction this coming season

I’d be happy with reconstruction for season 21/22 where it’s agreed for the right reasons


:agree:

[GreenCastle]

Reconstruction should 100% not happen next season. That would be a farce.

Regarding the future and probably explored then possibly - the idea of playing someone possibly x6 a season x 7 if you include a replay in the cup is ludicrous.

[Iggy Pope]

Unenforceable. The 5pm deadline was only a guideline as the rules state clubs have 28 days to vote on proposals.

That allocated period would be extraordinary in the current Force Majeure.

[davhibby]

Thankfully due to the tv deal a straight 16/18 team league playing eachother twice will forever be a non starter. 16 is the absolute limit realistically for a top league here and any larger league than we have now would need some sort of split and playoffs to keep things interesting.

[Sir David Gray]

That allocated period would be extraordinary in the current Force Majeure.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52249263

[Pescarese]

No idea how a 14 team league would work as not enough games. 16 and especially 18 would be to many.
14 teams could split after match 26, then play home and away. 38 games, same as now. Not saying it's a good idea, but it is potentially better than a larger still league.

[Iggy Pope]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52249263

It remains an extraordinary length of pondering in extraordinary times don’t you think? 28 days. A month to vote when 39 of your peers have pitched? And I’ve long since gone to the BBC for information on anything.

PS
Force Majeure (that being what we are in) tends to kick current ‘rules’ into touch.

[weecounty hibby]

The problem with reconstruction is that NO-ONE has been talking about it or planned for it, or planned what it would look like, how many teams, any split, etc etc. Knee jerk reaction to a crisis that could end up making things worse in the long run. All completely made up to try to save two clubs who have been completely ***** all season and longer. Too many clubs voted selfishly and didn't think about the wider consequences. There will be clubs that go tits up and unbelievably the tarts look like they could be one of them

[murray26]

This is all because Hearts are bottom ( relegate them ) I’ve no idea what rangers are moaning about.. do they really want to start over with Celtic inevitable league win..

[neil7908]

Yes to reconstruction but it needs to be planned and thought out, nor rushed through

[NAE NOOKIE]

A big NO. Nothing wrong with the leagues how they are.
No one has said anything about reconstruction for years.
NO NO NO.

How can you say that? Making the top 6 is a huge deal, for the likes of Motherwell or St Johnstone especially. As it stands an unequal division of fixtures prior to the split means teams aren't competing on a level playing field with some having a tougher away schedule than others .... that's never been acceptable in my opinion.

If nobody has mentioned reconstruction for years it's because no matter how often the fans asked for it we were always ignored ... The desire to see a bigger league with a more varied number of teams to watch was always popular with fans.

[RoYO!]

How can you say that? Making the top 6 is a huge deal, for the likes of Motherwell or St Johnstone especially. As it stands an unequal division of fixtures prior to the split means teams aren't competing on a level playing field with some having a tougher away schedule than others .... that's never been acceptable in my opinion.

If nobody has mentioned reconstruction for years it's because no matter how often the fans asked for it we were always ignored ... The desire to see a bigger league with a more varied number of teams to watch was always popular with fans.

But, alas not this year!

Send them down!

[NAE NOOKIE]

But, alas not this year!

Send them down!

FFS ... It's not all about bloody Hearts, there are other considerations here.

[Cat Stanton]

A big NO. Nothing wrong with the leagues how they are.
No one has said anything about reconstruction for years.
NO NO NO.

7 in the morning. You need to calm down a little/sleep a lot better.

You are confusing (and worrying over) two different issues. There have been numerous polls showing the majority of Scottish football fans want an end to playing four times a season, and therefore want league reconstruction. Mainly because it's **** and boring.

But that's obviously not the reason it's been brought up this time. So it shouldn't be introduced this time for the wrong reasons, and by the looks of it it won't be. So that means you can sleep a bit better, rest a bit easier, and worry a lot less. Take it easy.

[Joe6-2]

FFS ... It's not all about bloody Hearts, there are other considerations here.

But it’s because they are bottom it’s being asked for!! For some reason.
F*** them

[Tug Wilson]

How can you say that? Making the top 6 is a huge deal, for the likes of Motherwell or St Johnstone especially. As it stands an unequal division of fixtures prior to the split means teams aren't competing on a level playing field with some having a tougher away schedule than others .... that's never been acceptable in my opinion.

If nobody has mentioned reconstruction for years it's because no matter how often the fans asked for it we were always ignored ... The desire to see a bigger league with a more varied number of teams to watch was always popular with fans.

I totally agree that league reconstruction should be discussed but not under these circumstances. This is a knee jerk reaction being used to try and appease a few clubs, Hearts being one.

Get this season drawn to a close.

Get next season ready to go for as soon as it can possibly start.

If league reconstruction is good for the game then it can be discussed at leisure and not rushed through.

The idea of a 14 team Premier League for ONE season just stores up problems for the season after. Would it be 3 down and 1 up? Would there be a play off system for the 4th bottom side and 2nd - 4th in the Championship? Potentially 4 out of 14 teams relegated. How does that make sense to the St Mirrens, Hamiltons and Ross Counties of this world?

So if the change is going to happen then it has to be permanent and thought through.

For the 20/21 season, relegate 12th place in the Premier League and promote 1st from the Championship.

For season 21/22, relegate 12th in the PL, promote the top 3 in the Championship and if needs be have a play off between 11th in PL and 4th in Championship.

[GordonHFC]

Would the TV deal allow for reconstruction

Only if Celtic and The Rangers still play 4 times a season.

[ScottB]

Could copy the Belgian format?

16 teams play each other twice, then enter into a couple different play off groups with the top sides from the league below. Gives the bigger league required, doesn’t reduce the number of games or, likely, the number of Old Firm games either.

Don’t see any point in changing for a season though, if we’re going to change it should be permanent, and not necessarily starting next season. Hell there’s no certainty we’ll be able to run a full season of the current format as it is!

[Waxy]

I like the split. It gives us all an interest as only celtic buy sorry i mean win the league.
It always going to be uneven games unless we have odd numbered leagues. Then a team has to sit out a round of fixtures.
16 team league play home and away = 30
Then split to another 7 games is probably best we could do.
Two down one playoff.
Your losing a derby a seaon both Glasgow and Edinburgh. Tv wouldnt go for that.
Maybe be as well just going back to a ten team league and play 36 games.

[green day]

Reconstruction (while a nice idea) is only being talked about now to help Hearts and a couple of Championship teams that see an opportunity.

As a reminder of the specifics -

"The Premiership will be shown live on Sky Sports after the SPFL agreed a new broadcast deal worth around £160m to Scottish clubs.

It represents an increase of around 20% from the last combined contract.

The five-year agreement will include 48 games per season, as well as the six Premiership play-off ties."


Sky are interested in maximising Rangers / Celtic matches (inc their derbies) - I would be gobsmacked if the new TV contract doesnt have a clause stating that the deals are dependent on the league format being as is and allowing them to walk away / renegotiate if we change it or reduce the number of matches.

Sky might reasonably think this was an opportunity to reduce their spend, so the clubs could feasibly lose out.

Perhaps I am wrong (I dont think so) but once the specifics of the deal and the financial implications are discussed then I am fairly sure that this concept will be thrown out.

[JimBHibees]

That allocated period would be extraordinary in the current Force Majeure.

Agree terms of the vote given the current situation should have been agreed beforehand so the farce didn't happen.

[Waxy]

Maybe a fairer way to do these things in future will be looked at.
If half the season has been played then thats what we go back to?
So we’d have played 22 games and each other home and away?
No idea how the league would have looked we’d stopped at that this season.

[tamig]

By how much would the money Hibs receive in a 12 team league be diluted if it was a 14/16 team league. How much could we miss out on?

I’m sure someone mentioned on another thread that the Aberdeen chairman said each club would lose 600k if the league increased to 14.

[tamig]

No idea how a 14 team league would work as not enough games. 16 and especially 18 would be to many.

There are models that can work for 14 team leagues. You just need to separate the thinking from how the current split works.

[Leith_Hibee]

I would be all for league reconstruction. We need to move to teams playing each other twice to stop the OF from having a 30 point gap to 3rd place every season. There might also be a challenge every now and then from a non OF team.

We need to look beyond Hearts getting relegated...although that would be funny but we need to think of the good of the game in Scotland.

[Northernhibee]

Disagree. Would love a league that allows a guaranteed two down, two up and a maximum of three ties against an opponent a season, ideally two. Teams like Hamilton play crap football as they have to scrap to survive, if they go down they ain’t coming back up and as long as they finish above one other team, the playoff system favours the top flight team.

The more teams can play good football and not have to constantly think of the threat of being put into a league that’s very, very tough to get out of (Dundee United, Rangers and is all failed to on the first time of asking) and by making that league slightly easier to get out of, we may see teams who are perennially fighting at the bottom third of the league encourage their youngsters to play better football and improve the standard of our fitba.

[tamig]

I would be all for league reconstruction. We need to move to teams playing each other twice to stop the OF from having a 30 point gap to 3rd place every season. There might also be a challenge every now and then from a non OF team.

We need to look beyond Hearts getting relegated...although that would be funny but we need to think of the good of the game in Scotland.
Why is now the appropriate time for that though? Why the sudden rush. It needs debating properly and an agreement in place as to when it will start. Before a ball has been kicked in the season leading up to any change.

[Billy Whizz]

I don’t think it does any harm, every so often to change things around. However this must be a planned approach, and not a knee jerk reaction

Think some of the issues around are, some of our traditional better supported clubs, are in lower leagues, and smaller supported teams, without naming them are in the top league
Yeah it’s their fault, but how without real investment how can they get back

[Chuck Rhoades]

I reckon those against are mainly driven by the Hearts relegation factor as opposed to what’s the right way forward for this country’s top flight league.

FWIW, it’s a no from me, FTH.

[greenlex]

Yes to reconstruction but it needs to be planned and thought out, nor rushed through
This

[we are hibs]

I reckon those against are mainly driven by the Hearts relegation factor as opposed to what’s the right way forward for this country’s top flight league.

FWIW, it’s a no from me, FTH.

Its partially that but mostly because when Scottish football makes rushed through decisions like this it ends up becoming farcical and clubs end up worse off. It needs to be thoroughly thought through and planned over at least a year before happening. Not 7 or 8 weeks.

[Lee Marvin]

Very little chance this gets voted through.

Only 2 teams have to vote against and Hibs, if they like selling season tickets, would be one of them. Why would Celtic or Rangers vote for it? Why would any other team needing money?

The only reason to vote for this for 1 season is 'fairness.' We have already seen that this does not exist in Scottish football.

[chippy]

Yes to reconstruction but it needs to be planned and thought out, nor rushed through

If the principle is agreed that there is a strong preference for a larger premier league, then we’ve got 3/4 months to look at various options, consult fans properly, engage Sky and come to some consensus. What else will we all be doing, not going on holiday and not many of us working

[Roxyhibee]

Disagree. Would love a league that allows a guaranteed two down, two up and a maximum of three ties against an opponent a season, ideally two. Teams like Hamilton play crap football as they have to scrap to survive, if they go down they ain’t coming back up and as long as they finish above one other team, the playoff system favours the top flight team.

The more teams can play good football and not have to constantly think of the threat of being put into a league that’s very, very tough to get out of (Dundee United, Rangers and is all failed to on the first time of asking) and by making that league slightly easier to get out of, we may see teams who are perennially fighting at the bottom third of the league encourage their youngsters to play better football and improve the standard of our fitba.

There’s absolutely no evidence to suggest that a better standard of football will be played because we have a bigger league with lots more teams. Quite the contrary in fact. Many more boring teams will sit in that big lump in the middle and be happy to survive every season guaranteeing revenue from playing Celtic, Sevco, us, Hertz etc.

Google Scottish League finishes in many previous seasons in the 60’s and 70’s before the SPL and imagine some of those fixtures from February onwards. Many of my generation lived through that period and it could be excruciating - there were just as many 0-0 draws, defensive negative teams etc but the difference was they were even more meaningless. And you could play these types of teams 6 or 7 weeks on the trot.! No wonder crowds went from 5,000 to 35/40,000 - you were choking on a big game. So - clear evidence right there that people wanted to watch football in Scotland in big numbers, but didn’t attend the large amount of small meaningless games that a big league offered.

People wanting reconstruction are wanting things to improve and I get that. But I’ve yet to see something practical put forward that would be better - just words reaching for something that isn’t there. In my opinion, because of the and standard of teams we have out with the handful of good sized clubs in Scotland, the current system is the best to maximise some continued excitement right to the end of the season.

[chippy]

Could copy the Belgian format?

16 teams play each other twice, then enter into a couple different play off groups with the top sides from the league below. Gives the bigger league required, doesn’t reduce the number of games or, likely, the number of Old Firm games either.

Don’t see any point in changing for a season though, if we’re going to change it should be permanent, and not necessarily starting next season. Hell there’s no certainty we’ll be able to run a full season of the current format as it is!
Belgian model is very good. 16 teams play 30. Top 6 play home and away for title and 4 Euro places. 7th -14th form 2 mini leagues and a playoff winner plays 5th in league for final Euro spot. Bottom 2 play off over 3 -5 games for relegation place. Personally I’d modify the split to Top 4 , middle 8 in 2 groups and bottom 4 play off for 1 or 2 relegation places, 2 promoted from Tier 2.
I think this answers all the questions except potentially diluting monies available in a 12 club league. I think that is balanced though by reducing risk of relegation and scope to develop and play more young and cheaper Scots

[Eyrie]

The best solution for me continues to be the 12/12=8/8/8 model, with regionalised leagues below that.

It gives an even split of home and away games in a 36 game season with an obvious break point for a winter shut down if desired.


It means that teams who currently struggle at the bottom of the Premiership have less pressure because there are four places to be earned in the next season's top twelve. And it's the same for those clubs currently desperate for promotion from the current second tier.

It means that there will be more variety in the teams that we face in the first half of the season.

It means that teams are facing sides of equal calibre, whether in the top eight (title & Europe), middle eight (placings in next season's 12s) and lower eight (relegation to the regional leagues).

It means that all fixtures will have meaning, which will not be the case for mid-table sides from February onwards in a 16 or 18 team league.

It means good money for Hibs, as we will still have two home games against Hearts and each of the Ugly Sisters. And that makes a season ticket more valuable, because you're going to need one unlike being able to walk up for a game against Morton or Hamilton.

It means reduced travel costs and more local rivalries for the teams in the regionalised leagues. Presumably these would both have ten clubs playing four times, but it could mean a merger with the Highland and Lowland Leagues subject to sorting out the finances.

I'm not in favour of rushing through reconstruction for next season, but the above would be very do-able. If it was for next season, it would mean the extra two clubs being Brora and Kelty who have earned their promotions, not Ugly Sister reserves.

[chippy]

The best solution for me continues to be the 12/12=8/8/8 model, with regionalised leagues below that.

It gives an even split of home and away games in a 36 game season with an obvious break point for a winter shut down if desired.


It means that teams who currently struggle at the bottom of the Premiership have less pressure because there are four places to be earned in the next season's top twelve. And it's the same for those clubs currently desperate for promotion from the current second tier.

It means that there will be more variety in the teams that we face in the first half of the season.

It means that teams are facing sides of equal calibre, whether in the top eight (title & Europe), middle eight (placings in next season's 12s) and lower eight (relegation to the regional leagues).

It means that all fixtures will have meaning, which will not be the case for mid-table sides from February onwards in a 16 or 18 team league.

It means good money for Hibs, as we will still have two home games against Hearts and each of the Ugly Sisters. And that makes a season ticket more valuable, because you're going to need one unlike being able to walk up for a game against Morton or Hamilton.

It means reduced travel costs and more local rivalries for the teams in the regionalised leagues. Presumably these would both have ten clubs playing four times, but it could mean a merger with the Highland and Lowland Leagues subject to sorting out the finances.

I'm not in favour of rushing through reconstruction for next season, but the above would be very do-able. If it was for next season, it would mean the extra two clubs being Brora and Kelty who have earned their promotions, not Ugly Sister reserves.

Better than what we have but I think it makes things too tight for all but old firm and won’t encourage clubs to play developing talent. A larger premier league allows some space for that. Also won’t get 2 home games Vs Hearts if one is 9th, same goes for old firm. Plenty times in history where Hibs or Hearts don’t make top 8

[Billy Whizz]

Better than what we have but I think it makes things too tight for all but old firm and won’t encourage clubs to play developing talent. A larger premier league allows some space for that. Also won’t get 2 home games Vs Hearts if one is 9th, same goes for old firm. Plenty times in history where Hibs or Hearts don’t make top 8

It’s no different to now though

[NAE NOOKIE]

There’s absolutely no evidence to suggest that a better standard of football will be played because we have a bigger league with lots more teams. Quite the contrary in fact. Many more boring teams will sit in that big lump in the middle and be happy to survive every season guaranteeing revenue from playing Celtic, Sevco, us, Hertz etc.

Google Scottish League finishes in many previous seasons in the 60’s and 70’s before the SPL and imagine some of those fixtures from February onwards. Many of my generation lived through that period and it could be excruciating - there were just as many 0-0 draws, defensive negative teams etc but the difference was they were even more meaningless. And you could play these types of teams 6 or 7 weeks on the trot.! No wonder crowds went from 5,000 to 35/40,000 - you were choking on a big game. So - clear evidence right there that people wanted to watch football in Scotland in big numbers, but didn’t attend the large amount of small meaningless games that a big league offered.

People wanting reconstruction are wanting things to improve and I get that. But I’ve yet to see something practical put forward that would be better - just words reaching for something that isn’t there. In my opinion, because of the and standard of teams we have out with the handful of good sized clubs in Scotland, the current system is the best to maximise some continued excitement right to the end of the season.

You have to remember that in the decades you mention it was 2 points for a win ... since the mid 90s a win is far more valuable than it used to be.

If you had a 14 team league with two automatic relegation spots and 12th being a play off spot being ultra defensive would be no more guaranteed to get you safety than it would do in a 12 team league ... we only have two less clubs in the premiership now than we would with 14 and I have to say that clubs like St Mirren have impressed me with their attacking intent at ER .. I doubt two more clubs in the league would change that, or at least make defensive attitudes any worse.

Yes it increases the danger of a few more meaningless games, but not by very much ... how many of a bottom 8 at the split would be absolutely safe from relegation with 14 games still to play?

[MWHIBBIES]

There is A LOT wrong with playing teams 4 times in a ****ing league season.

[NAE NOOKIE]

There is A LOT wrong with playing teams 4 times in a ****ing league season.

There is mate no doubt about it.

But a 16 team league home and away would only equate to 30 fixtures, so some sort of split would still be required. An 18 team league is an absolute non starter, there just aren't enough decent clubs around to make it competitive and you would have an absolute pile of meaningless fixtures two thirds of the way through the season.

A 14 team league could be the best of a series of options all admittedly with down sides to them:

1 ) .... You would still have a few clubs in the championship with some hope of competing if promoted to a 14 team league.

2 ) .... It would allow some of our bigger clubs who have fell on hard times the hope that even if they were relegated a quick return is possible .... We all know that a 4th season in the championship and no 2016 cup win would have been disastrous for Hibs.

3 ) .... It would give more leeway for clubs like Dunfermline with real potential to add to the league far more than the likes of Hamilton or Ross County a route back to the top table.

4 ) .... A 14 team league would still have the potential to minimise the number of meaningless fixtures if it had two automatic relegation spots and one playoff spot far more than a 16 team league would. It would also add to the excitement if 3rd bottom in the PL played 3rd top in the championship in a one off decider at a neutral venue.

The problem with Scottish football is that we just don't have enough decent sized clubs to have a competitive 18 team league and not enough decent sized clubs to make anybody coming from the championship into a 16 team league anything other than a makeweight almost certain to go straight back down again. Because of our lack of ( for want of a better word ) 'big' clubs we should do what we can to protect the survival of the ones we have, while still keeping within the bounds of fair play and for me a 14 team league would do that.

We can all go .... Ha ha the Huns are going bust ... Ha ha the Hearts are goosed .... Ha ha I hate Dundee Utd it's great to see them struggling. Keep it up and we'll laugh our way into being the northern version of the league of Ireland.

[Spike Mandela]

We can all go .... Ha ha the Huns are going bust ... Ha ha the Hearts are goosed .... Ha ha I hate Dundee Utd it's great to see them struggling. Keep it up and we'll laugh our way into being the northern version of the league of Ireland.

Never mind we’ll let them have their overspending fun f***ing us over time after time then we will bail them out of the mess they get themselve into like the the trusty doormats that we are.

[Glory Lurker]

Merge senior, Highland and junior games. Two top divisions of 12 each - both two down/two up automatically and a play-off up/remain. Football below that split in to regional leagues in a pyramid.

[where'stheslope]

Thankfully due to the tv deal a straight 16/18 team league playing eachother twice will forever be a non starter. 16 is the absolute limit realistically for a top league here and any larger league than we have now would need some sort of split and playoffs to keep things interesting.
I said on another thread, it depends on when the season starts?
It could be the League cup will be cancelled and the amount of games to be played in the league could end up only playing each other twice, so allowing for league reconstruction.
Then play the Scottish Cup if enough time left in the calender?
Its not ideal, but until we get a starting date for football, there is no point in making decisions now!!!
Except just to relegate the Yams!!!!

[Roxyhibee]

You have to remember that in the decades you mention it was 2 points for a win ... since the mid 90s a win is far more valuable than it used to be.

If you had a 14 team league with two automatic relegation spots and 12th being a play off spot being ultra defensive would be no more guaranteed to get you safety than it would do in a 12 team league ... we only have two less clubs in the premiership now than we would with 14 and I have to say that clubs like St Mirren have impressed me with their attacking intent at ER .. I doubt two more clubs in the league would change that, or at least make defensive attitudes any worse.

Yes it increases the danger of a few more meaningless games, but not by very much ... how many of a bottom 8 at the split would be absolutely safe from relegation with 14 games still to play?

Fair enough, I could just about live with giving this a go. And your point about the old 2 point for a win is valid which I missed.

But absolutely no more than 14.

[Bishop Hibee]

I don’t mind it the way it is. No need for reconstruction unless it’s a regional league for the first and second divisions.

[James Stephen]

Im not against reconstruction per se, but it wasnt on the agenda until this outbreak came along, but im still not clear what the rationale for it is?

What problems created does it help solve?

[NAE NOOKIE]

Never mind we’ll let them have their overspending fun f***ing us over time after time then we will bail them out of the mess they get themselve into like the the trusty doormats that we are.

In the name of all that's holy. This isn't about that for me and in the current circumstances we have to put these differences to one side and look at the bigger picture, which is how do we get the game back going again with the least amount of damage possible to the least amount of clubs.

The truth of the matter is any club being relegated on the back of yesterday's vote can't be accused of getting themselves into 'a mess' vis a vis relegation, be that Partick Thistle, Hearts or Brechin City ... I exempt Stranraer who were doomed anyway by the looks of things. But the undeniable truth is that of these three clubs still had ample opportunity to play their way out of trouble and have been denied that opportunity by a situation totally outwith their control. Sorry if it pisses folk off, but I just can't find any pleasure in gloating about that .. even if one of the club's concerned is sodding Hearts.

I have no problem with a vote to end the league as it stands, that seems like the logical decision to me and I think Hibs did the right thing. Ensuring what happens afterwards limits the damage to 'every' club is what concerns me and IMO what should be concerning everybody who actually cares about Scottish football.

Note .... It was easy to lift that section of my post to make your point, but you do recognise I presume that the thinking behind it was what might work to help and sustain our whole game and had little if anything to do with some sort of Jambo love in you seem to think I'm indulging in.

[weecounty hibby]

In the name of all that's holy. This isn't about that for me and in the current circumstances we have to put these differences to one side and look at the bigger picture, which is how do we get the game back going again with the least amount of damage possible to the least amount of clubs.

The truth of the matter is any club being relegated on the back of yesterday's vote can't be accused of getting themselves into 'a mess' vis a vis relegation, be that Partick Thistle, Hearts or Brechin City ... I exempt Stranraer who were doomed anyway by the looks of things. But the undeniable truth is that of these three clubs still had ample opportunity to play their way out of trouble and have been denied that opportunity by a situation totally outwith their control. Sorry if it pisses folk off, but I just can't find any pleasure in gloating about that .. even if one of the club's concerned is sodding Hearts.

I have no problem with a vote to end the league as it stands, that seems like the logical decision to me and I think Hibs did the right thing. Ensuring what happens afterwards limits the damage to 'every' club is what concerns me and IMO what should be concerning everybody who actually cares about Scottish football.
All of those clubs have had the same 30 games as everyone else to play themselves out of trouble. PTFC game in hand, but you get the gist. They are all at the bottom because that are the worst team in their league. Actually hearts have been worst team in prem for at least 12 months since they won the league in October. There is no resolution to this that suits all 42 senior clubs. Failure should not be overlooked and neither should success. Teams at the top should be champs, teams at the bottom should go down

[hibbyfraelibby]

The best solution for me continues to be the 12/12=8/8/8 model, with regionalised leagues below that.

It gives an even split of home and away games in a 36 game season with an obvious break point for a winter shut down if desired.


It means that teams who currently struggle at the bottom of the Premiership have less pressure because there are four places to be earned in the next season's top twelve. And it's the same for those clubs currently desperate for promotion from the current second tier.

It means that there will be more variety in the teams that we face in the first half of the season.

It means that teams are facing sides of equal calibre, whether in the top eight (title & Europe), middle eight (placings in next season's 12s) and lower eight (relegation to the regional leagues).

It means that all fixtures will have meaning, which will not be the case for mid-table sides from February onwards in a 16 or 18 team league.

It means good money for Hibs, as we will still have two home games against Hearts and each of the Ugly Sisters. And that makes a season ticket more valuable, because you're going to need one unlike being able to walk up for a game against Morton or Hamilton.

It means reduced travel costs and more local rivalries for the teams in the regionalised leagues. Presumably these would both have ten clubs playing four times, but it could mean a merger with the Highland and Lowland Leagues subject to sorting out the finances.

I'm not in favour of rushing through reconstruction for next season, but the above would be very do-able. If it was for next season, it would mean the extra two clubs being Brora and Kelty who have earned their promotions, not Ugly Sister reserves.

Spot on...but from 21/22

[NAE NOOKIE]

All of those clubs have had the same 30 games as everyone else to play themselves out of trouble. PTFC game in hand, but you get the gist. They are all at the bottom because that are the worst team in their league. Actually hearts have been worst team in prem for at least 12 months since they won the league in October. There is no resolution to this that suits all 42 senior clubs. Failure should not be overlooked and neither should success. Teams at the top should be champs, teams at the bottom should go down

Which is exactly what yesterday's vote does, so long as it eventually goes through. Celtic will be champions, Dundee United will be champions and Hearts and Partick Thistle will be relegated and prize money will be allocated accordingly Unless I'm missing something that is what the record books will show for season 19/20 in Scottish football.

For sure there is no resolution which will suit all 42 senior clubs .... but a revamping of the leagues for next season will sure as hell suit, and more to the point help, more clubs than just maintaining the status quo will ... in the long run even clubs who had a chance of a play off spot like Dundee or ICT and now wont get the chance will be better off if they would just remove the blinkers for a second and look a year down the road ... which they must do, because if they think this season can be played to a finish they are truly insane.

Both these clubs will be in a championship with Hearts if there is no reconstruction, what chance will they have if the best they could do this season was to see Dundee Utd out of sight by new year? Whereas, if they got their vote out of the way now and concentrated on getting a 14 team league run along the lines I proposed instead, ICT would be promoted as 2nd in the championship and Dundee would have the chance of two automatic promotion spots and a play off spot next season ... those are pretty good odds without ICT, Dundee Utd or Hearts in the same league as them.

[Spike Mandela]

In the name of all that's holy. This isn't about that for me and in the current circumstances we have to put these differences to one side and look at the bigger picture, which is how do we get the game back going again with the least amount of damage possible to the least amount of clubs.

The truth of the matter is any club being relegated on the back of yesterday's vote can't be accused of getting themselves into 'a mess' vis a vis relegation, be that Partick Thistle, Hearts or Brechin City ... I exempt Stranraer who were doomed anyway by the looks of things. But the undeniable truth is that of these three clubs still had ample opportunity to play their way out of trouble and have been denied that opportunity by a situation totally outwith their control. Sorry if it pisses folk off, but I just can't find any pleasure in gloating about that .. even if one of the club's concerned is sodding Hearts.

I have no problem with a vote to end the league as it stands, that seems like the logical decision to me and I think Hibs did the right thing. Ensuring what happens afterwards limits the damage to 'every' club is what concerns me and IMO what should be concerning everybody who actually cares about Scottish football.

Note .... It was easy to lift that section of my post to make your point, but you do recognise I presume that the thinking behind it was what might work to help and sustain our whole game and had little if anything to do with some sort of Jambo love in you seem to think I'm indulging in.

I could have quoted your lengthy meanderings on league construction but wanted to get to the nub of why we are in this position. It isn’t the for good of Scottish football it is YET AGAIN purely and squarely to bail out the mismanaged duo from their own over indulgence.

If you want ‘fairness’ the obvious answer is a 20 team top league playing each other twice 38 games. As you know this isn’t going to fly as the Premier clubs self interest determines they want to play celtic and Rangers 4 times.

So instead they bundle together this 14 team league messY idea splitting to a 6 and an 8 after two rounds. A complete dogs dinner cooked up purely to be ‘fair’ to Hearts whilst completely ignoring the ‘unfairness’ to the 3rd and 4th place playoff teams in the championship..

You can pretend a solution is being desired for the common good but every single one of the 42 clubs is posturing and voting purely on a sel interest basis and couldn’t give a toss about the other clubs. Do you really think ICT voted no because it is unfair to relegate Hearts, of course it’s not, it’s to get in the top league themselves. Do you honestly believe thst Rangers are the honest arbitrators of Scottish football campaigning for the benefit of every one? Do you honestly think Hearts would give a f*** if they were sitting 11th?

We were the ‘bigger man’ and moved on after the last time Rangers and Hearts cheated Scottish football but here they are again sticking their fingers up to the rest of us and demanding, yes demanding we see sense and do what they want.

League reconstruction is a no no for me.

[Phil MaGlass]

I could have quoted your lengthy meanderings on league construction but wanted to get to the nub of why we are in this position. It isn’t the for good of Scottish football it is YET AGAIN purely and squarely to bail out the mismanaged duo from their own over indulgence.

If you want ‘fairness’ the obvious answer is a 20 team top league playing each other twice 38 games. As you know this isn’t going to fly as the Premier clubs self interest determines they want to play celtic and Rangers 4 times.

So instead they bundle together this 14 team league messY idea splitting to a 6 and an 8 after two rounds. A complete dogs dinner cooked up purely to be ‘fair’ to Hearts whilst completely ignoring the ‘unfairness’ to the 3rd and 4th place playoff teams in the championship..

You can pretend a solution is being desired for the common good but every single one of the 42 clubs is posturing and voting purely on a sel interest basis and couldn’t give a toss about the other clubs. Do you really think ICT voted no because it is unfair to relegate Hearts, of course it’s not, it’s to get in the top league themselves. Do you honestly believe thst Rangers are the honest arbitrators of Scottish football campaigning for the benefit of every one? Do you honestly think Hearts would give a f*** if they were sitting 11th?

We were the ‘bigger man’ and moved on after the last time Rangers and Hearts cheated Scottish football but here they are again sticking their fingers up to the rest of us and demanding, yes demanding we see sense and do what they want.

League reconstruction is a no no for me.

Hear hear, **** them

[CMurdoch]

I could have quoted your lengthy meanderings on league construction but wanted to get to the nub of why we are in this position. It isn’t the for good of Scottish football it is YET AGAIN purely and squarely to bail out the mismanaged duo from their own over indulgence.
If you want ‘fairness’ the obvious answer is a 20 team top league playing each other twice 38 games. As you know this isn’t going to fly as the Premier clubs self interest determines they want to play celtic and Rangers 4 times.
This is true but the real reason this won't happen is TV money. Love it or loathe them the Old Firm games are what drove the Sky TV deal

So instead they bundle together this 14 team league messY idea splitting to a 6 and an 8 after two rounds. A complete dogs dinner cooked up purely to be ‘fair’ to Hearts whilst completely ignoring the ‘unfairness’ to the 3rd and 4th place playoff teams in the championship.
Surely the split from 14 teams is 7 and 7 after 26 games. This is fairer than the present league in that you would then play each team home and away i.e. 12 further games. At the end of the season you will have played the same total of 38 games as currently but very importantly an equal number of games home and away against each team in your teams side of the post split. This currently doesn't happen i.e. it is the present post split fixtures that are a dogs dinner.

You can pretend a solution is being desired for the common good but every single one of the 42 clubs is posturing and voting purely on a sel interest basis and couldn’t give a toss about the other clubs. Do you really think ICT voted no because it is unfair to relegate Hearts, of course it’s not, it’s to get in the top league themselves. Do you honestly believe thst Rangers are the honest arbitrators of Scottish football campaigning for the benefit of every one? Do you honestly think Hearts would give a f*** if they were sitting 11th?
100% true, each club will always act in self interest. They might dress it up with words to look like something else. This situation will be no different.

We were the ‘bigger man’ and moved on after the last time Rangers and Hearts cheated Scottish football but here they are again sticking their fingers up to the rest of us and demanding, yes demanding we see sense and do what they want.
Contradicts what you correctly said in your last paragraph. Same rule applies. Each club, including our own, will always act in financial self interest. This was no different.

League reconstruction is a no no for me.

Comments on your points are above in bold.
The only thing the SPFL is looking to do is protect the new Sky deal and won't allow anything to jeopardise it or provide grounds for Sky to renegotiate the contract. This is why they tried to strong-arm yesterdays vote through. League reconstruction isn't in their thoughts.

[RoYO!]

I could have quoted your lengthy meanderings on league construction but wanted to get to the nub of why we are in this position. It isn’t the for good of Scottish football it is YET AGAIN purely and squarely to bail out the mismanaged duo from their own over indulgence.

If you want ‘fairness’ the obvious answer is a 20 team top league playing each other twice 38 games. As you know this isn’t going to fly as the Premier clubs self interest determines they want to play celtic and Rangers 4 times.

So instead they bundle together this 14 team league messY idea splitting to a 6 and an 8 after two rounds. A complete dogs dinner cooked up purely to be ‘fair’ to Hearts whilst completely ignoring the ‘unfairness’ to the 3rd and 4th place playoff teams in the championship..

You can pretend a solution is being desired for the common good but every single one of the 42 clubs is posturing and voting purely on a sel interest basis and couldn’t give a toss about the other clubs. Do you really think ICT voted no because it is unfair to relegate Hearts, of course it’s not, it’s to get in the top league themselves. Do you honestly believe thst Rangers are the honest arbitrators of Scottish football campaigning for the benefit of every one? Do you honestly think Hearts would give a f*** if they were sitting 11th?

We were the ‘bigger man’ and moved on after the last time Rangers and Hearts cheated Scottish football but here they are again sticking their fingers up to the rest of us and demanding, yes demanding we see sense and do what they want.

League reconstruction is a no no for me.

Very well said- thank you for taking the time to say it!

[Viva_Palmeiras]

You points answered above in bold.
The only thing the SPFL is looking to do is protect the new Sky deal and won't allow anything to jeopardise it or provide grounds for Sky to renegotiate the contract. This is why they tried to strong-arm yesterdays vote through. League reconstruction isn't in their thoughts.


Sky deal has yet to kick in tho’.

Sky will surely be looking at force majeure clauses across the board * at the mo’ so might not even be worth the paper it’s written on esp. if it’s yet to come into effect?

And they will guard against setting any precedents for a backwater like Scotland - one which has yet to commence whilst other contracts in progress...

[CMurdoch]

Sky deal has yet to kick in tho’.

Sky will surely be looking at force majeure clauses across the board * at the mo’ so might not even be worth the paper it’s written on esp. if it’s yet to come into effect?

And they will guard against setting any precedents for a backwater like Scotland - one which has yet to commence whilst other contracts in progress...

My presumption would be that the contract is signed off and legally binding and the only way Sky can change the terms of it is if the SPFL change the product they have agreed to pay for in some material way. League reconstruction could be such a loophole and if so would be a non runner for the SPFL.

[Spike Mandela]

Comments on your points are above in bold.
The only thing the SPFL is looking to do is protect the new Sky deal and won't allow anything to jeopardise it or provide grounds for Sky to renegotiate the contract. This is why they tried to strong-arm yesterdays vote through. League reconstruction isn't in their thoughts.


Problem with the 7 and 7 split is that every cycle 2 teams, one each side of split won’t be playing..

[Heisenberg]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5484409/dundee-could-propose-league-reconstruction-spfl-nelms/

This article seems like total nonesense. Nelms can insist on talks about reconstruction happening and they will happen, but there’s **** all chance it gets the backing required to be implemented. The way this is written makes it sound like reconstruction would happen no questions asked - “Dundee could put forward a motion which would see reconstruction pushed through” - it’s not getting pushed anywhere without the required backing of the clubs.

[CMurdoch]

Problem with the 7 and 7 split is that every cycle 2 teams, one each side of split won’t be playing..

Your right, it's not perfect but it's close. We play 2 games a week most weeks in the second half of the season at the moment so sitting out 3 dates out of 12 wouldn't be a massive issue and teams might be glad of them.
However, as I said it's all academic given the new Sky deal is what the SPFL will protect at all costs, including Hearts, and for that reason I can't see reconstruction.

What folk haven't spoken about is whether BT Sport will hold onto a large chunk of money if we call the season and don't play this seasons games and whether it is legal for them to do so given an Act of God. Mad times.

[percy veer]

I read this a lot the 4 game thing. I don't want reconstruction, not rushed now anyway.
But how can sky put that in a deal? As unlikely as this could happen (stranger things have I e Leicester winning the league) but say one of the OF finished bottom 6? What would sky do then? Not pay out cause the contract states there must be 4 OF games?

No chance either rangers and Celtic would finish bottom 6

[el_fletch]

Don’t think we need 4 divisions it seems a bit much for a country this size. 2 leagues of 14/16 would be ideal.

[CMurdoch]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sport/football/5484409/dundee-could-propose-league-reconstruction-spfl-nelms/

This article seems like total nonesense. Nelms can insist on talks about reconstruction happening and they will happen, but there’s **** all chance it gets the backing required to be implemented. The way this is written makes it sound like reconstruction would happen no questions asked - “Dundee could put forward a motion which would see reconstruction pushed through” - it’s not getting pushed anywhere without the required backing of the clubs.

The article is bollocks and the unequal split suggestion in said article is bollocks.
It would see a reduction for the top 6 teams from 19 home games per season to 18 which is a big loss of revenue every season.
Team owners won't be interested in getting less money. Plus the other negative revenue issue of cutting the cake into 14 pieces instead of 12.
It's all about the money for each team other than Rangers who are doing bat **** stuff to show their fans they are hard and not backing down to Celtic in order that they buy season tickets. A season ticket mating dance if you will.

[1875STEVE]

Im a yes for league reconstruction.

Playing the same team 4 times is piss poor.

Id go 16 or 18, play twice. 3 up, 3 down.

Not a fan of the split either.

[bigwheel]

Im a yes for league reconstruction.

Playing the same team 4 times is piss poor.

Id go 16 or 18, play twice. 3 up, 3 down.

Not a fan of the split either.

I’m old enough to recall the bigger leagues....so many meaningless games. It was such the right decision to reduce league size..

Likely in the minority, but I really like our league set up - almost every game makes a difference....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[CMurdoch]

I’m old enough to recall the bigger leagues....so many meaningless games. It was such the right decision to reduce league size..

Likely in the minority, but I really like our league set up - almost every game makes a difference....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

The old 18 team top league was horrific.
There was always 3 or 4 teams who were absolutely hosed by the big teams.

[Eyrie]

Season ticket sales will drop massively if there is a 16, 18 or 20 team league.

We'd be replacing full houses against Hearts and the Ugly Sisters with a couple of hundred fans from St Mirren or Inverness, so it will be much easier to get a walk up ticket. That means there's no need to pay in advance for games in the latter half of the season when we're as likely to be mired in mid-table mediocrity as having a realistic chance of Europe. Miss a couple of those games and the season ticket will cost more.

It's a financial non-starter.

[Ozyhibby]

Only takes two top flight teams to be against any of the proposed changes for it not to happen. I haven’t seen any proposal that increases revenue for the top flight teams.
Does anyone seriously expect anything that cuts revenue to get passed? That means 11 premiership teams voting to take less money?


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[Roxyhibee]

Im a yes for league reconstruction.

Playing the same team 4 times is piss poor.

Id go 16 or 18, play twice. 3 up, 3 down.

Not a fan of the split either.

No. 18 teams is utter purgatory, trust me. 16 is a big no too. There won’t be a product for any tv deals either.

Playing each other 3/4 times a season is not ideal but after you’ve played a handful of meaningless games in a row in an 18 team league, you’ll be dying to play one of the same big teams twice in one week if necessary, never mind over a season.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I could have quoted your lengthy meanderings on league construction but wanted to get to the nub of why we are in this position. It isn’t the for good of Scottish football it is YET AGAIN purely and squarely to bail out the mismanaged duo from their own over indulgence.

If you want ‘fairness’ the obvious answer is a 20 team top league playing each other twice 38 games. As you know this isn’t going to fly as the Premier clubs self interest determines they want to play celtic and Rangers 4 times.

So instead they bundle together this 14 team league messY idea splitting to a 6 and an 8 after two rounds. A complete dogs dinner cooked up purely to be ‘fair’ to Hearts whilst completely ignoring the ‘unfairness’ to the 3rd and 4th place playoff teams in the championship..

You can pretend a solution is being desired for the common good but every single one of the 42 clubs is posturing and voting purely on a sel interest basis and couldn’t give a toss about the other clubs. Do you really think ICT voted no because it is unfair to relegate Hearts, of course it’s not, it’s to get in the top league themselves. Do you honestly believe thst Rangers are the honest arbitrators of Scottish football campaigning for the benefit of every one? Do you honestly think Hearts would give a f*** if they were sitting 11th?

We were the ‘bigger man’ and moved on after the last time Rangers and Hearts cheated Scottish football but here they are again sticking their fingers up to the rest of us and demanding, yes demanding we see sense and do what they want.

League reconstruction is a no no for me.

So far as I'm aware the only benefit to the Huns would be a 100/1 chance of stopping Celtic winning the league .. so any vote makes little difference to them, in spite of their nonsense.

My idea for a 14 team league is at least manageable ... I haven't seen any other proposals. No it won't help 3rd and 4th in the championship in the short term, but it will cause damage to as few clubs as possible, in view of the fact that any league bigger than that would be unworkable in a country of this size.

As for the rest of your own 'lengthy meanderings' ... I couldn't give a rats arse what the clubs or the fans motivations are, I'm stating my point of view as I see it and saying what I think would be the best option for the game going forward ..... It's my honest opinion and I'm not allowing it to be influenced by the self serving attitude of a number of clubs and the parochialism of other fans.

I dont give a **** what Hearts think, what Celtic think, what ICT think or what anybody else thinks ... this is just my opinion of what's best for Scottish football as I see it. If it falls into line with some great ... if its hated by others that's too bad ... I'm not going to change what I feel is best for the game just to fit in.

[1875STEVE]

I’m old enough to recall the bigger leagues....so many meaningless games. It was such the right decision to reduce league size..

Likely in the minority, but I really like our league set up - almost every game makes a difference....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

There's plenty meaningless games now.

There's plenty teams big enough down in the Championship who would make a difference to the league.

IMO Dundee Utd, Dundee, ICT, Ayr, Dunfermline, Morton, Partick and QOS are all good sized clubs.

Go down a league further and you have Raith and Falkirk.

Id much rather have trips to tannadice, dens, firhill etc, than another two trips to fir park and killie.

Also, there would be a derby just about every other week.

The more i think about it, the more i like 18.

It's no coincidence, imo, that he best leagues in the world all have bigger leagues, it would allow the bleeding of youngsters more as well, as I think clubs would take a chance if they are not in trouble.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Scotland had some good national sides, and qualified for tournaments when we had bigger leagues.

If had my way, id promote the top 6 from the championship, and keep what we have, and keep doing it down the ladder, until we reach the bottom, then ask for new teams from juniors etc to apply to fill the gaps.

If they couldn't get enough teams to fill the gaps, id go down the colt route to fill it up.

[bigwheel]

There's plenty meaningless games now.

There's plenty teams big enough down in the Championship who would make a difference to the league.

IMO Dundee Utd, Dundee, ICT, Ayr, Dunfermline, Morton, Partick and QOS are all good sized clubs.

Go down a league further and you have Raith and Falkirk.

Id much rather have trips to tannadice, dens, firhill etc, than another two trips to fir park and killie.

Also, there would be a derby just about every other week.

The more i think about it, the more i like 18.

It's no coincidence, imo, that he best leagues in the world all have bigger leagues, it would allow the bleeding of youngsters more as well, as I think clubs would take a chance if they are not in trouble.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Scotland had some good national sides, and qualified for tournaments when we had bigger leagues.

If had my way, id promote the top 6 from the championship, and keep what we have, and keep doing it down the ladder, until we reach the bottom, then ask for new teams from juniors etc to apply to fill the gaps.

If they couldn't get enough teams to fill the gaps, id go down the colt route to fill it up.

There are not too many meaningless games today....well, anyway compared to what there would be in a bigger league....most games can affect something in the league. It’s not about being good sized clubs...it’s about games that have no relevance on championships, Europe, splits or relegation...Will never happen anyway - most they will go for,I reckon, is 14 with a split...


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[Bristolhibby]

Does the English Premiership have “meaningless games”?

J

[chippy]

The main arguments against a 16/18 team league are: 1) Meaningless games 2) lack of competition 3) lower crowds 4) not enough good teams 5) too small a country 6) lower value tv deal 7) less home games Vs old firm 8) 2nd tier too weak to produce competitive promoted clubs.

Points 1,2,4,8. Come off it the current set up is not competitive for the title. Barely has been since the early days of the 10 team league with the great Dundee United and Aberdeen teams, I would argue that most of the players in that era started off in the 18 team format. The only competition for clubs outside the old firm is for relegation or the odd European place. The focus of clubs on relegation has I believe been instrumental in stopping clubs playing young Scots. The top 10 or 12 set up suits the old firm who can carry large well paid squads of higher quality and pick off the better players in other clubs when it suits. This reduces the chances of other clubs getting closer to them. Evidence is clear over the last 35 years ,


Points 3,5,6 7
We have good crowds for a small country, Pros and cons having 8 games Vs old firm.. Makes games less special, some fans stay away, sectarian atmosphere among others. These days I don’t think fewer games Vs old firm would be very damaging to Hibs, Hearts , Aberdeen as we all have good nos of season ticket holders, etc.. Also less games Vs old firm makes it more likely to have a winning run and I would strongly argue play more open football and play younger Scots . More likely to get closer to old firm
Point 8 I find this the oddest . Some want a smalll premier league so you can have a strong 2nd tier . Talk about shooting yourself in both feet and the head. This just makes the whole thing a relegation shoot out outside the old firm, We need as many of our strong clubs in the premier as possible. So now that would mean United, ICT, Dundee and Ayr in a 16 team. Sure we will have yo yo clubs , good every league had them.
KEY POINT
What is missing from any of the pro small league arguments is the effect on the development of Scottish talent . Is there not a link between our decline as a football power and our league structure? In the old 18 team league we produced great teams and loads of quality players . European cup and cup winners, semi finalists . Great runs in Europe,. Great teams qualified for 74 and 78 World Cup.
This should be a key plank in any restructure but you never hear of it.

SOLUTION
An historic compromise that integrates expanded and small leagues
A 16 team premier that splits after 30 similar to Belgium ( they don’t do too badly)
The splits can be tweaked to suit Scotland but I kinda like a Top 4, middle 8 in 2 groups and a bottom 4. Bottom 4 play home and away and 1 or 2 get relegated. Top 4 , home and away for title and Euro places . Middle 8 in 2 groups . Winner overall of group play off wins 5th Euro place.
Yes there are some teams played 4 times but not many, keeps interest to season end, Why not?

[weecounty hibby]

League reconstruction should be looked at but not for next season as a knee jerk reaction. It needs proper planning and proper execution. Not just doing it and flying into it half cocked. You can see already even on here the different suggestions so how the **** do we expect to get one implemented in the next 3/4 months when you have 42 clubs with different agendas. Finish the league's as they are, plan for reconstruction if it is indeed necessary and not just a quick fix to prevent hearts, Dundee, ICT and PTFC moaning too much, because that is exactly what it looks like

[Danderhall Hibs]

Does the English Premiership have “meaningless games”?

J

There will be less as they have more European spots available so you’re a bit lower down the table before you’re classed as meaningless.

Looking at the current table the likes of Everton v Crystal Palace or Burnley v Southampton are pretty meaningless. If they had the same European spots as us - anyone playing from below Man U down to Southampton would be playing for nothing other than win bonuses.

[chippy]

League reconstruction should be looked at but not for next season as a knee jerk reaction. It needs proper planning and proper execution. Not just doing it and flying into it half cocked. You can see already even on here the different suggestions so how the **** do we expect to get one implemented in the next 3/4 months when you have 42 clubs with different agendas. Finish the league's as they are, plan for reconstruction if it is indeed necessary and not just a quick fix to prevent hearts, Dundee, ICT and PTFC moaning too much, because that is exactly what it looks like

We’ve got 3/4 months that’s plenty time to discuss , consult , plan and implement. Reconstruction is always in the background .Also it resolves promotion and relegation issues. What else are we gonna be doing in this time ?

[weecounty hibby]

We’ve got 3/4 months that’s plenty time to discuss , consult , plan and implement. Reconstruction is always in the background .Also it resolves promotion and relegation issues. What else are we gonna be doing in this time ?

That's total nonsense that it's always in the background. It's not been mentioned for ages. It is a knee jerk reaction and will not end well. 3/4 months is not plenty time at all. 42 clubs in the senior leagues, lowland league, Highland league, multiple sponsors, multiple TV companies to all deal with.

[Wakeyhibee]

I think we will see a couple more votes fail. And if Sevco do actually have any evidence of SPFl impropriety then I reconstruction will be cobbled together to suit as many as possible to get it through.

3 leagues of 14

No relegations (sadly)

Split at some configuration after 2 rounds to guarantee 4 OF games for TV. 2-4 extra games

No change in prize money splits so 13th in Prem gets what it would coming top of championship.

And mad though it might seem given the time restrictions possibly even a truncated pre season playoff to decide the extra promotion. The is Scottish Football after all.

Then a switch back to status quo following season with 3 down one up and playoffs is the trade off.

You've now got Jambos, Partick, Falkirk etc on board.

TV deal wont really be affected

[Danderhall Hibs]

If the 14 team league is such a good idea why do folk only want it for one season?

[Wakeyhibee]

If the 14 team league is such a good idea why do folk only want it for one season?

Whilst I would like to see a bigger league, my post was what I think might happen. Long term the clubs are all short sighted and will vote for now/cash.

One season in my view is a waste of time but it might be required to get enough clubs on board on how to go forward.

[weecounty hibby]

The thing is that most clubs are on board and the ones who aren't are 100% only looking after themselves and are not in the least bit interested in whats best for everyone

[bigwheel]

The main arguments against a 16/18 team league are: 1) Meaningless games 2) lack of competition 3) lower crowds 4) not enough good teams 5) too small a country 6) lower value tv deal 7) less home games Vs old firm 8) 2nd tier too weak to produce competitive promoted clubs.

Points 1,2,4,8. Come off it the current set up is not competitive for the title. Barely has been since the early days of the 10 team league with the great Dundee United and Aberdeen teams, I would argue that most of the players in that era started off in the 18 team format. The only competition for clubs outside the old firm is for relegation or the odd European place. The focus of clubs on relegation has I believe been instrumental in stopping clubs playing young Scots. The top 10 or 12 set up suits the old firm who can carry large well paid squads of higher quality and pick off the better players in other clubs when it suits. This reduces the chances of other clubs getting closer to them. Evidence is clear over the last 35 years ,


Points 3,5,6 7
We have good crowds for a small country, Pros and cons having 8 games Vs old firm.. Makes games less special, some fans stay away, sectarian atmosphere among others. These days I don’t think fewer games Vs old firm would be very damaging to Hibs, Hearts , Aberdeen as we all have good nos of season ticket holders, etc.. Also less games Vs old firm makes it more likely to have a winning run and I would strongly argue play more open football and play younger Scots . More likely to get closer to old firm
Point 8 I find this the oddest . Some want a smalll premier league so you can have a strong 2nd tier . Talk about shooting yourself in both feet and the head. This just makes the whole thing a relegation shoot out outside the old firm, We need as many of our strong clubs in the premier as possible. So now that would mean United, ICT, Dundee and Ayr in a 16 team. Sure we will have yo yo clubs , good every league had them.
KEY POINT
What is missing from any of the pro small league arguments is the effect on the development of Scottish talent . Is there not a link between our decline as a football power and our league structure? In the old 18 team league we produced great teams and loads of quality players . European cup and cup winners, semi finalists . Great runs in Europe,. Great teams qualified for 74 and 78 World Cup.
This should be a key plank in any restructure but you never hear of it.

SOLUTION
An historic compromise that integrates expanded and small leagues
A 16 team premier that splits after 30 similar to Belgium ( they don’t do too badly)
The splits can be tweaked to suit Scotland but I kinda like a Top 4, middle 8 in 2 groups and a bottom 4. Bottom 4 play home and away and 1 or 2 get relegated. Top 4 , home and away for title and Euro places . Middle 8 in 2 groups . Winner overall of group play off wins 5th Euro place.
Yes there are some teams played 4 times but not many, keeps interest to season end, Why not?

Some Interesting points on here.

Bosman ruling and money distribution is a much bigger factor in lack of title competition, that the league size. There is nothing that a bigger league will do to change that.. Want to make it more competitive - have a more equal money distribution with max salaries , then we may have more like the 70s and 80s.....

The youth dev points are interesting...football was a national passion in the 70s..kids out playing from dusk until dawn....I suspect the change in this is the biggest factor for lack of talent emerging ..and also likely the over coaching at a young age...

I like our league. Most games can affect big outcomes. This years league was a big example. Rangers with an outside chance. European battle still hot. Top six not certain for us. Relegation battle still highly active....if you put 4-6 more teams in the mix the tension reduces.

Yes, perhaps teams can give youth more a chance in that model - but perhaps also at the cost of more meaningful games.

Tough one..but I like the current set up.


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[Eyrie]

SOLUTION
An historic compromise that integrates expanded and small leagues
A 16 team premier that splits after 30 similar to Belgium ( they don’t do too badly)
The splits can be tweaked to suit Scotland but I kinda like a Top 4, middle 8 in 2 groups and a bottom 4. Bottom 4 play home and away and 1 or 2 get relegated. Top 4 , home and away for title and Euro places . Middle 8 in 2 groups . Winner overall of group play off wins 5th Euro place.
Yes there are some teams played 4 times but not many, keeps interest to season end, Why not?
We have four European places at present, one of which goes to the winners of the Scottish Cup.

Under that scenario it would be better to finish fifth and play in Europe than make the top four only to finish third or fourth and miss out on Europe. It's unnecessarily complicated and leaves teams in the third group (and potentially those at the bottom of the top two groups, or top of the bottom group) with nothing to play for.

[FilipinoHibs]

The big problem is the Sky deal. They want a guaranteed 4 old firm games a season. For 14 you could play each other twice then post split play each other twice again - 6/8 split.

[Ozyhibby]

Not a single model above puts more money into the top clubs. In fact they all result in less money for the top clubs. They can therefore be discounted as being a non starter when it comes to a vote requiring 11 out of 12 teams in favour.


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[Since452]

How about a 10 team league and we relegate Hearts and Hamilton. More money for the top clubs and get rid of two diddy teams. Job done.

[where'stheslope]

If the 14 team league is such a good idea why do folk only want it for one season?
Its mainly proposed as a one off, to help get us out of lockdown and as know one kinows when that is likely to happen it could be a restricted season next time.
The way some are talking, football will be ready to go in August, not a chance of that, it will be nearer the end of the year or early next year till things settle.

[Ozyhibby]

How about a 10 team league and we relegate Hearts and Hamilton. More money for the top clubs and get rid of two diddy teams. Job done.

Dundee Utd might be a bit p’ed off.[emoji23]


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[CockneyRebel]

There will be less as they have more European spots available so you’re a bit lower down the table before you’re classed as meaningless.

Looking at the current table the likes of Everton v Crystal Palace or Burnley v Southampton are pretty meaningless. If they had the same European spots as us - anyone playing from below Man U down to Southampton would be playing for nothing other than win bonuses.

They would, more importantly, be playing for final position payments which involves considerable sums.

[Ozyhibby]

Its mainly proposed as a one off, to help get us out of lockdown and as know one kinows when that is likely to happen it could be a restricted season next time.
The way some are talking, football will be ready to go in August, not a chance of that, it will be nearer the end of the year or early next year till things settle.

If it’s not ready for an August kick off then there is likely to be no European footy next season either so there will be lots of midweek slots freed up to allow the league to finish.


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[Danderhall Hibs]

Dundee Utd might be a bit p’ed off.[emoji23]


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3 down and 1 up then?

[Danderhall Hibs]

They would, more importantly, be playing for final position payments which involves considerable sums.

Are we talking Premiership or EPL here?

[Wakeyhibee]

Not a single model above puts more money into the top clubs. In fact they all result in less money for the top clubs. They can therefore be discounted as being a non starter when it comes to a vote requiring 11 out of 12 teams in favour.


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No team will get more money from any deal, if anything they're all gonna take a hit from this season. If this gets protracted some may go to the wall.

I can only see Sevco voting against, after cash their agenda is different from everyone elses in that they will anything to stop, delay or devalue this season's title.

[RoYO!]

As the title states- no to reconstruction. I'm yet to see any model that makes me think differently.

[chippy]

That's total nonsense that it's always in the background. It's not been mentioned for ages. It is a knee jerk reaction and will not end well. 3/4 months is not plenty time at all. 42 clubs in the senior leagues, lowland league, Highland league, multiple sponsors, multiple TV companies to all deal with.

Politeness costs nothing and it’s not total nonsense.

cheers

[Tug Wilson]

I quite like Eyrie's idea of 12/12 splitting into 8/8/8

It solves a number of key issues arising at this time.

Swap Hearts and Dundee United to give us 12 in the Premiership.

No relegation from the Championship and Raith and Falkirk promoted from League 1.

After 22 games the Premiership top 8 is could be.

Celtic
The Rangers
Motherwell
Aberdeen
Hibs
Dundee United
Livingston
St Johnstone

and Bottom 4

Kilmarnock
Ross County
St Mirren
Hamilton

Top 4 in the Championship

Hearts
ICT
Dundee
Ayr

Leaving

Falkirk
Raith
Morton
Arbroath
QotS
Partick
Dunfermline
Alloa

In the Bottom 8

14 more games each to decide

1. the league and European places in the Top 8

2. the Middle 8 fighting for a place in next season's Premiership

3. Bottom 8 trying to avoid relegation. Make it 2 down to ramp up the pressure.

Should mean quite a few meaningful and competitive games at the business end of the season.

Should guarantee 4 Uglies games.

Only issue I can see is what do you do about the games already played. Especially in the Middle 8?

Unfair on Top and Bottom 8s to start again from zero but the Middle 8 have to or the 4 from the Premiership have no chance.

Few questions to solve but overall worth considering?

[chippy]

I quite like Eyrie's idea of 12/12 splitting into 8/8/8

It solves a number of key issues arising at this time.

Swap Hearts and Dundee United to give us 12 in the Premiership.

No relegation from the Championship and Raith and Falkirk promoted from League 1.

After 22 games the Premiership top 8 is could be.

Celtic
The Rangers
Motherwell
Aberdeen
Hibs
Dundee United
Livingston
St Johnstone

and Bottom 4

Kilmarnock
Ross County
St Mirren
Hamilton

Top 4 in the Championship

Hearts
ICT
Dundee
Ayr

Leaving

Falkirk
Raith
Morton
Arbroath
QotS
Partick
Dunfermline
Alloa

In the Bottom 8

14 more games each to decide

1. the league and European places in the Top 8

2. the Middle 8 fighting for a place in next season's Premiership

3. Bottom 8 trying to avoid relegation. Make it 2 down to ramp up the pressure.

Should mean quite a few meaningful and competitive games at the business end of the season.

Should guarantee 4 Uglies games.

Only issue I can see is what do you do about the games already played. Especially in the Middle 8?

Unfair on Top and Bottom 8s to start again from zero but the Middle 8 have to or the 4 from the Premiership have no chance.

Few questions to solve but overall worth considering?

I’m not against this I’d prefer the 16 plus splits but this isn’t a bad compromise

[Ozyhibby]

I’m happy with it as it is. You don’t improve the standard of a league by bringing in lower quality teams.


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[Wilson]

I’m happy with it as it is. You don’t improve the standard of a league by bringing in lower quality teams.


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I'm not sure you improve the standard of our league by freezing some of our better supported clubs out of the top division for years on end.

[Joe6-2]

I would be all for league reconstruction. We need to move to teams playing each other twice to stop the OF from having a 30 point gap to 3rd place every season. There might also be a challenge every now and then from a non OF team.

We need to look beyond Hearts getting relegated...although that would be funny but we need to think of the good of the game in Scotland.

I was always for league reconstruction, but no way if it’s just to save their skin, who the F*** are they!!!!

[weecounty hibby]

Politeness costs nothing and it’s not total nonsense.

cheers

Where was I impolite? Can you direct me to any articles since the split came in where clubs were looking for league reconstruction and it was actually being seriously discussed please. Thanks awfully.

[Heisenberg]

There’s Budgie confirmed she is going to put forward a temporary league reconstruction for next season in order to save her club. If it means less money for clubs then there’s no hope of it passing, but if it’s somehow worked that everyone gets the same money she could get enough votes to make it pass. Here’s the paragraph from her statement:

“Given that the Resolution is not yet approved and given that time is marching on, I can confirm that Hearts, either alone or in conjunction with other Clubs, will be proposing a Temporary Adjustment to the Leagues, aimed at bringing matters to a close in a manner that ensures no Club is financially penalised as a consequence of these exceptional circumstances.”

[Ozyhibby]

There’s Budgie confirmed she is going to put forward a temporary league reconstruction for next season in order to save her club. If it means less money for clubs then there’s no hope of it passing, but if it’s somehow worked that everyone gets the same money she could get enough votes to make it pass. Here’s the paragraph from her statement:

“Given that the Resolution is not yet approved and given that time is marching on, I can confirm that Hearts, either alone or in conjunction with other Clubs, will be proposing a Temporary Adjustment to the Leagues, aimed at bringing matters to a close in a manner that ensures no Club is financially penalised as a consequence of these exceptional circumstances.”

Small matter but can they bring it forward alone? Don’t they need two other clubs? I’m sure they will get two other clubs but she should know that.


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[Billy Whizz]

Small matter but can they bring it forward alone? Don’t they need two other clubs? I’m sure they will get two other clubs but she should know that.


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Is that 2 clubs in the Premiership, or all the leagues

[Hibeesmad]

There’s Budgie confirmed she is going to put forward a temporary league reconstruction for next season in order to save her club. If it means less money for clubs then there’s no hope of it passing, but if it’s somehow worked that everyone gets the same money she could get enough votes to make it pass. Here’s the paragraph from her statement:

“Given that the Resolution is not yet approved and given that time is marching on, I can confirm that Hearts, either alone or in conjunction with other Clubs, will be proposing a Temporary Adjustment to the Leagues, aimed at bringing matters to a close in a manner that ensures no Club is financially penalised as a consequence of these exceptional circumstances.”

I believe the SKY deal will scupper any chance of it happening in the immediate future.

[hibbyfraelibby]

There’s Budgie confirmed she is going to put forward a temporary league reconstruction for next season in order to save her club. If it means less money for clubs then there’s no hope of it passing, but if it’s somehow worked that everyone gets the same money she could get enough votes to make it pass. Here’s the paragraph from her statement:

“Given that the Resolution is not yet approved and given that time is marching on, I can confirm that Hearts, either alone or in conjunction with other Clubs, will be proposing a Temporary Adjustment to the Leagues, aimed at bringing matters to a close in a manner that ensures no Club is financially penalised as a consequence of these exceptional circumstances.”

Does she not get it? Every single team in the SPFL is currently being financially disadvantage because of the on going Covid19 crisis and there is actually no magic money tree (that'll shock them at the PBS the way they've spent other people's money and renaged on their debts repeatedly).

The money to cushion the Covid19 blow simply does not exist, even with the new Sky deal and the Bank of SPFL is not licensed by the FCA to lend money it doesnt have. Its called reality and living within your actual means.

[Ozyhibby]

Is that 2 clubs in the Premiership, or all the leagues

All leagues I think. Needs 5% of members which is just over 2.


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[Roxyhibee]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6141813]I’m happy with it as it is. You don’t improve the standard of a league by bringing in lower quality teams.

This is spot on. Expanding the league in Scotland anything beyond 12 teams will have a detrimental effect in the quality of games we attend as Hibs fans. If people are just bored playing the same teams 3/4 times a season, ok that’s their motivation to expand and I respect that.. But it’s an odd one to be so passionate about (as many strangely are on this thread) as many games will be boring in multiple weeks.

[Smartie]

I'm not sure you improve the standard of our league by freezing some of our better supported clubs out of the top division for years on end.

If they can learn to use their resources a bit more wisely then they shouldn’t be gone for long.

I have less than zero sympathy for the likes of ourselves, Hearts, Dundee United and Rangers who have found themselves outside the top league for various reasons recently.

Having big crowds is great, but if you can’t do what is necessary to finish ahead of Hamilton Accies then you don’t deserve to be in the league ahead of them.

I actually do think we should have more access to our top league - at least 2 relegation places then playoffs but that measure shouldn’t be introduced in a knee jerk way at this time. That, for me, is the only reorganisation that needs to happen.

[greenpaper55]

[QUOTE=Ozyhibby;6141813]I’m happy with it as it is. You don’t improve the standard of a league by bringing in lower quality teams.

This is spot on. Expanding the league in Scotland anything beyond 12 teams will have a detrimental effect in the quality of games we attend as Hibs fans. If people are just bored playing the same teams 3/4 times a season, ok that’s their motivation to expand and I respect that.. But it’s an odd one to be so passionate about (as many strangely are on this thread) as many games will be boring in multiple weeks.

Celtic won the European cup when we had an eighteen team league in 1967, just for your info Clyde were 3rd 12 points behind them ! Hibs were 5th 16 points behind Celtic so you see it does not have to be a detrimental move.

[Tug Wilson]

[QUOTE=Roxyhibee;6141952]

Celtic won the European cup when we had an eighteen team league in 1967, just for your info Clyde were 3rd 12 points behind them ! Hibs were 5th 16 points behind Celtic so you see it does not have to be a detrimental move.

The league set up from 53 years ago probably has little bearing on the present day.

[greenpaper55]

[QUOTE=greenpaper55;6141962]

The league set up from 53 years ago probably has little bearing on the present day.

It was two points for a win back then which was the only difference i can think of. I admit that a few years after this there was some dire teams in the top flight and some were even part time so there was a call for re construction and we changed to a ten team league. I would think that the teams in the championship bear no resemblance to the teams back then, coaching and fitness is much better and there are no games that you could say nowadays was a walkover. Would you take Hibs to hammer any team in the championship ? i would not and many other teams would struggle against them.

[malcolm]

[QUOTE=Roxyhibee;6141952]

Celtic won the European cup when we had an eighteen team league in 1967, just for your info Clyde were 3rd 12 points behind them ! Hibs were 5th 16 points behind Celtic so you see it does not have to be a detrimental move.

The financial rules were different then with no significant tv monies, teams sharing gates home and away and players tied to clubs by registration despite contracts ending. The absence of such levelling of the playing field would make a big difference.

I’d prefer a bigger league as don’t like the current split but not as a knee jerk response to one team’s self generated predicament.

Also I am assuming that the really odd ‘pre-season’ league cup format will have to be ditched whenever this next season starts. That may be a bonus as many clearly are uninterested in such games. This is a key issue for a bigger league as would the same uninterested people be interested in attending run of the mill nothing to play for league games that a bigger league may bring.:confused:

[Since452]

Big fat NO unless it's 10 teams

[Weegreenman]

Meaningless games, I mean why on earth buy a season ticket and force torture upon yourself?

[The Baldmans Comb]

I find it quite admirable and refreshing that people devote hours and hours devising and debating reconstruction proposals.

Many are excellent ideas and well thought out.✔.

An 11:1 vote is impossible to get from the Top league but still the ideas keep on coming and nothing can stop them.

[Roxyhibee]

[QUOTE=greenpaper55;6141962]

The financial rules were different then with no significant tv monies, teams sharing gates home and away and players tied to clubs by registration despite contracts ending. The absence of such levelling of the playing field would make a big difference.

I’d prefer a bigger league as don’t like the current split but not as a knee jerk response to one team’s self generated predicament.

Also I am assuming that the really odd ‘pre-season’ league cup format will have to be ditched whenever this next season starts. That may be a bonus as many clearly are uninterested in such games. This is a key issue for a bigger league as would the same uninterested people be interested in attending run of the mill nothing to play for league games that a bigger league may bring.:confused:


I didn’t send that message you replied to, but it has my name on it.! 😂

[Roxyhibee]

[QUOTE=greenpaper55;6141962]

The league set up from 53 years ago probably has little bearing on the present day.

Sorry, I didn’t send that message you replied to. Strange slip of text and names there.!

[Ozyhibby]

If I was running Hearts I would be thinking along the lines of getting together with Inverness and offer to take zero prize money next season in a 14 team league no matter where they finish. That way nobody else needs to lose out.
They take a prize money hit but other top flight teams don’t lose out. Needs a 6-8 split which means some clubs may even gain from more games.
Hearts need a solution that everyone else is not hurt by but to do that they have to take a hit. Still a tricky proposition because two teams need added to bottom league.
It’s that kind of thinking that may save them but I doubt they would consider anything that does not give them full membership rights.


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[greenpaper55]

Meaningless games, I mean why on earth buy a season ticket and force torture upon yourself?

Think we could win a game against Dundee, Dundee United, Dunfermline, ICT, easily ? these games would not be meaningless. Meaningless games are when Celtic have the league sown up by December !

[greenpaper55]

And another thing ! with the smaller league we have been relegated twice !

[weecounty hibby]

Think we could win a game against Dundee, Dundee United, Dunfermline, ICT, easily ? these games would not be meaningless. Meaningless games are when Celtic have the league sown up by December !
I think the point being that if you are mid table in an 18 team league, you can't go down, can't win the league and can't qualify for Europe and you are playing a similar places team then it is a non event. More likely to happen in a bigger league. I actually think that this year was pretty exciting until it stopped.

[greenpaper55]

The bottom line for me is there are no meaningless games where Hibs are concerned !

[Smartie]

I think the point being that if you are mid table in an 18 team league, you can't go down, can't win the league and can't qualify for Europe and you are playing a similar places team then it is a non event. More likely to happen in a bigger league. I actually think that this year was pretty exciting until it stopped.

This year was shaping up to be excellent.

The relegation battle was interesting.

The battle for top 6 was wide open.

The battle for European places was far from over.

Rangers had fallen away but had made a decent fist of a title challenge for much of the season.

Celtic still had to get past some decent clubs if they were to win the Scottish Cup.

Playoffs would, as ever, have been interesting.

There is no good reason to reconstruct anything.

There are plenty of bad reasons, most of all placating Rangers and Hearts, 2 badly run clubs who should be facing natural consequences of their mismanagement.

[Jim44]

No to reconstruction. ....... as long as it doesn’t end up in destruction, which looks a distinct possibility at this moment in time.

[tamig]

No to reconstruction. ....... as long as it doesn’t end up in destruction, which looks a distinct possibility at this moment in time.

Maybe a bit extreme but I’d love to see the hun and their despicable mini version expelled from the leagues for bringing the game into disrepute.

[allezsauzee]

Big fat NO unless it's 10 teams

I agree with this. Back to a 10 team Premier league with 2 up 2 down would ensure a better quality top division and most teams if not all have a title/european place/avoid relegation to play for. The Championship would be pretty decent with the likes of Hearts, Hamilton, Ross County, Dundee, ICT, Ayr , Dunfermline fighting it out.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I agree with this. Back to a 10 team Premier league with 2 up 2 down would ensure a better quality top division and most teams if not all have a title/european place/avoid relegation to play for. The Championship would be pretty decent with the likes of Hearts, Hamilton, Ross County, Dundee, ICT, Ayr , Dunfermline fighting it out.

I saw somebody else saying go back to 10 and I thought it was just a joke and then I see a couple of others saying the same. Ye gods ... only having a 12 team top league is bad enough without going back to those days, we might as well change the SPFL logo to Mickey Mouse.

That aside, the chances of being relegated from a league of that size are enormous and with a far stronger championship the chances of bouncing straight back up again would be far far slimmer than at present and even under today's circumstances its taken a club as big as Dundee Utd 4 seasons to get out of this far weaker one.

The fans hated the 10 team format after a few years and crowds dropped like a stone .... it was during these 'golden years' that I remember being at ER with league crowds of 4 and 5 thousand for some games .... in fact I distinctly recall getting all excited at one point because for a season opener at ER against Motherwell Hibs drew a crowd of 9,000.

Anybody wanting to seriously return to a 10 team format either wasn't around the first time or is trying to be funny ..... hell. if you want to down the road of insanity we might just as well have a 20 team top division and go down in a blaze of glory :faf:

[1875STEVE]

There are not too many meaningless games today....well, anyway compared to what there would be in a bigger league....most games can affect something in the league. It’s not about being good sized clubs...it’s about games that have no relevance on championships, Europe, splits or relegation...Will never happen anyway - most they will go for,I reckon, is 14 with a split...


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Yes and that cut-throat attitude is why clubs don't take chances on youngsters unless they really have to.

IMO, it IS about good sized clubs, they attract bigger crowds and carry bigger travelling supports.

There's defo meaningless games today and plenty of them.

Our game is stale and our national team struggles and I sthink this kind of change would help it.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

Yes and that cut-throat attitude is why clubs don't take chances on youngsters unless they really have to.

IMO, it IS about good sized clubs, they attract bigger crowds and carry bigger travelling supports.

There's defo meaningless games today and plenty of them.

Our game is stale and our national team struggles and I sthink this kind of change would help it.

The right change would, I agree.

Any reconstruction should be discussed fully, when this is all over. And in my opinion there should be a full consultation done with Scottish football's fans before any change is made.

Rushing through any reconstruction now is madness.

[Waxy]

A temporary one year reconstruction is incredible.
To say its so no team is financially punished due to the virus is chancing it.All teams are losing the same amount here.
Hearts are trying to escape the justice of going down.
They were going down anyway.
I cant believe i’m actually hearing this from them.It’s cheating every team ever relegated.

[danhibees1875]

I quite like Eyrie's idea of 12/12 splitting into 8/8/8

Only issue I can see is what do you do about the games already played. Especially in the Middle 8?

Unfair on Top and Bottom 8s to start again from zero but the Middle 8 have to or the 4 from the Premiership have no chance.

Few questions to solve but overall worth considering?

I don't mind the current set up as it is, but if there's change I think this is one of the better ideas.

As to those points, I would restart the middle 8 at 0 as you say.

The top and bottom 8's could either play as they are or could do as the Belgians do and cut everyone's points in half.

[Greenworld]

Agree it was a great season apart maybe that Celtic had proven to be to good again .

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[allezsauzee]

I saw somebody else saying go back to 10 and I thought it was just a joke and then I see a couple of others saying the same. Ye gods ... only having a 12 team top league is bad enough without going back to those days, we might as well change the SPFL logo to Mickey Mouse.

That aside, the chances of being relegated from a league of that size are enormous and with a far stronger championship the chances of bouncing straight back up again would be far far slimmer than at present and even under today's circumstances its taken a club as big as Dundee Utd 4 seasons to get out of this far weaker one.

The fans hated the 10 team format after a few years and crowds dropped like a stone .... it was during these 'golden years' that I remember being at ER with league crowds of 4 and 5 thousand for some games .... in fact I distinctly recall getting all excited at one point because for a season opener at ER against Motherwell Hibs drew a crowd of 9,000.

Anybody wanting to seriously return to a 10 team format either wasn't around the first time or is trying to be funny ..... hell. if you want to down the road of insanity we might just as well have a 20 team top division and go down in a blaze of glory :faf:

I'm not sure the better crowds at Easter Road are anything to do with having 2 extra teams in the league. How about much less crowd trouble and a modern stadium rather than a crumbling death trap being more conducive to taking families, the football being much more entertaining than it was in the 80s, the economics of having limited number of seats leading people to buy season tickets therefore they turn up at all the games rather than just the big games against Hearts, Celtic and Rangers. Also, people on average are better off now than they were in the 1980s and have more disposable income to spend on entertainment. Don't also forget that our crowds have risen substantially since winning the Scottish Cup, there were plenty of seasons with a 12 team league where our crowds weren't that much better.....but aye having the likes of Hamilton and Ross County in the division might be the key to it right enough.

[we are hibs]

Cannot wait to hear Hearts big plan. Wonder how it will work consdidering they think NO club should be left worse off financially. Particularly interested to hear:

1) how they plan on 12 current premiership clubs being compensated for loss of prize money due to diluting the league.


2) how they plan on sweetening sky who agreed to cover the 12 team premiership with a set number of games to be shown live already in place.


3) how they think the clubs currently sitting in 3rd and 4th in the lower leagues will be compensated considering they will miss out on a chance of promotion.


4) where the money is coming from to compensate the above.



Its also hilarious that all this is going to come from an owner and club that is so badly run on and off the park. All of scottish football is to support hearts lead when it comes to financial matters? Scottish football will be dead by this time next year if we do that.

[ScottB]

Cannot wait to hear Hearts big plan. Wonder how it will work consdidering they think NO club should be left worse off financially. Particularly interested to hear:

1) how they plan on 12 current premiership clubs being compensated for loss of prize money due to diluting the league.


2) how they plan on sweetening sky who agreed to cover the 12 team premiership with a set number of games to be shown live already in place.


3) how they think the clubs currently sitting in 3rd and 4th in the lower leagues will be compensated considering they will miss out on a chance of promotion.


4) where the money is coming from to compensate the above.



Its also hilarious that all this is going to come from an owner and club that is so badly run on and off the park. All of scottish football is to support hearts lead when it comes to financial matters? Scottish football will be dead by this time next year if we do that.

Do they even have one? I figure it’s all Brexit style nonsense at play; vote for our idea, then it’ll be for the authorities to figure out an actual plan.

[Gaz]

It’s simple from me end the leagues now finish as is 1 up 1 down in all leagues.

Send hearts down they have been the worst team in the league for some time and deserve to go down.

[Ozyhibby]

Cannot wait to hear Hearts big plan. Wonder how it will work consdidering they think NO club should be left worse off financially. Particularly interested to hear:

1) how they plan on 12 current premiership clubs being compensated for loss of prize money due to diluting the league.


2) how they plan on sweetening sky who agreed to cover the 12 team premiership with a set number of games to be shown live already in place.


3) how they think the clubs currently sitting in 3rd and 4th in the lower leagues will be compensated considering they will miss out on a chance of promotion.


4) where the money is coming from to compensate the above.



Its also hilarious that all this is going to come from an owner and club that is so badly run on and off the park. All of scottish football is to support hearts lead when it comes to financial matters? Scottish football will be dead by this time next year if we do that.

1) offer to take no prize money next season. They would still be better off in the top league than going down and it means the prize money is not diluted.
2) so long as Sky get the same amount of games and crucially the old firm games the will be happy. Plus I’m sure they will be happy to have the Edinburgh derby as well.
3) Those clubs are staying where they are no matter what but they have more chance of promotion without Hearts and ICT there.
4) They should not have to compensate if nobody loses out.

That is Hearts best chance of getting a deal. They have to accept that they are going to take a hit in order to make sure nobody else does. That’s the only way of getting a vote through.


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[Greenworld]

Revolutionary thinking hearts might manage in that scenario not so sure about ICT .

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[NAE NOOKIE]

I'm not sure the better crowds at Easter Road are anything to do with having 2 extra teams in the league. How about much less crowd trouble and a modern stadium rather than a crumbling death trap being more conducive to taking families, the football being much more entertaining than it was in the 80s, the economics of having limited number of seats leading people to buy season tickets therefore they turn up at all the games rather than just the big games against Hearts, Celtic and Rangers. Also, people on average are better off now than they were in the 1980s and have more disposable income to spend on entertainment. Don't also forget that our crowds have risen substantially since winning the Scottish Cup, there were plenty of seasons with a 12 team league where our crowds weren't that much better.....but aye having the likes of Hamilton and Ross County in the division might be the key to it right enough.

You make some good points mate, there is no doubt that going to games is a different experience from back then and that has attracted more families and especially female supporters. When I started going regularly in the mid 70s seeing women and girls at games was as rare as hen's teeth, the change to that has been a massive and welcome benefit to our game and does account somewhat for the better crowds.

But it doesn't change my attitude to a 10 team league. As I said, I want to make it easier for clubs to get into the top division, a wee bit easier for them to stay there and a bit easier for them to return if they are relegated. All that is aimed at saving clubs from the huge financial hit of a protracted stay in the championship. If circumstances were different that wouldn't be my main consideration when it came to league reconstruction, but in this country and especially in these times I feel its more important than ever that we protect the clubs who are still full time and and give better opportunities to the likes of Dunfermline.

I don't think a 10 team league does that in any measure, whereas IMO a 14 team league will without having a massive impact on the quality of our game. I can't recall the football being much better than it is now with 10 teams. The whole point was to mount a challenge to the OF domination and yes it worked for a bit, but it took the two best teams in the history of Aberdeen and Dundee Utd to do it, as their European efforts surely proved. There is utterly no chance Aberdeen would keep that team together for as long as they did in today's market.

14 is the way to go for me, but certainly not just for one season to suit the bloody Jambos ... even I'm not swallowing that one :aok:

[James Stephen]

There was absolutely zero call for reconstruction until about 2 weeks ago. That suggests to me it is not a good solution for our league.

I dont understand the push to change now, for a 10 team league that we recently got rid of because clubs didnt like it, or for some weird, overly complicated and convoluted solution that amounts to everyone else jumping through hoops to the benefit of 1 or 2 clubs.

The league format is fine as is, i see no need to change it, especially if its for one season, which is a naked attempt to manipulate the situation to the benefit of some, at the expense of others.

[NAE NOOKIE]

There was absolutely zero call for reconstruction until about 2 weeks ago. That suggests to me it is not a good solution for our league.

I dont understand the push to change now, for a 10 team league that we recently got rid of because clubs didnt like it, or for some weird, overly complicated and convoluted solution that amounts to everyone else jumping through hoops to the benefit of 1 or 2 clubs.

The league format is fine as is, i see no need to change it, especially if its for one season, which is a naked attempt to manipulate the situation to the benefit of some, at the expense of others.

Maybe not from the clubs, but the fans had been talking about it for years and there's a pile of threads on this forum and other club's forums, not to mention elsewhere on social media to prove it. The reason talk died down was because it was obvious the clubs didn't want it no matter how many fans did and especially the clubs to whom the size of the league didn't matter IE the Uglies .. why would they dilute their share of the pot for the benefit of Hamilton or ICT.

These are different times. Yes this new enthusiasm for reconstruction looks unsavoury because Hearts are the main pushers of it, but that doesn't mean its not something that isn't long overdue. Lets not kid ourselves on, there are two sides to this coin and the other one is a lot of fans, especially Hibs fans, who might have been up for reconstruction suddenly against it because it will bail out Hearts.

Having said that, I will repeat that 14 teams for one season is a non starter for me as well ... this has to be tried for as many seasons as it takes to prove it is or isn't working, not as a sop to one club.

[Diclonius]

League reconstruction will never get through any other way. Do it now or do it never. A 14 team league would be great.

[NAE NOOKIE]

League reconstruction will never get through any other way. Do it now or do it never. A 14 team league would be great.

Why is it all of a sudden I feel like Henry Fonda 20 minutes into '12 angry men'

Which would have been a far better film if it had had 14 angry men of course :greengrin

[allezsauzee]

You make some good points mate, there is no doubt that going to games is a different experience from back then and that has attracted more families and especially female supporters. When I started going regularly in the mid 70s seeing women and girls at games was as rare as hen's teeth, the change to that has been a massive and welcome benefit to our game and does account somewhat for the better crowds.

But it doesn't change my attitude to a 10 team league. As I said, I want to make it easier for clubs to get into the top division, a wee bit easier for them to stay there and a bit easier for them to return if they are relegated. All that is aimed at saving clubs from the huge financial hit of a protracted stay in the championship. If circumstances were different that wouldn't be my main consideration when it came to league reconstruction, but in this country and especially in these times I feel its more important than ever that we protect the clubs who are still full time and and give better opportunities to the likes of Dunfermline.

I don't think a 10 team league does that in any measure, whereas IMO a 14 team league will without having a massive impact on the quality of our game. I can't recall the football being much better than it is now with 10 teams. The whole point was to mount a challenge to the OF domination and yes it worked for a bit, but it took the two best teams in the history of Aberdeen and Dundee Utd to do it, as their European efforts surely proved. There is utterly no chance Aberdeen would keep that team together for as long as they did in today's market.

14 is the way to go for me, but certainly not just for one season to suit the bloody Jambos ... even I'm not swallowing that one :aok:

I agree that we should not be changing the league format to suit Hearts or any other club that routinely engages in financial doping. Any changes should be decided prior to the season starting whichever way we go. Whatever the size of the top division, i think it makes sense to regionalise the lower divisions. It would surely lower the costs for these clubs as well as encourage more people to attend as lot of the clubs come from outside the central belt.

[James Stephen]

Maybe not from the clubs, but the fans had been talking about it for years and there's a pile of threads on this forum and other club's forums, not to mention elsewhere on social media to prove it. The reason talk died down was because it was obvious the clubs didn't want it no matter how many fans did and especially the clubs to whom the size of the league didn't matter IE the Uglies .. why would they dilute their share of the pot for the benefit of Hamilton or ICT.

These are different times. Yes this new enthusiasm for reconstruction looks unsavoury because Hearts are the main pushers of it, but that doesn't mean its not something that isn't long overdue. Lets not kid ourselves on, there are two sides to this coin and the other one is a lot of fans, especially Hibs fans, who might have been up for reconstruction suddenly against it because it will bail out Hearts.

Having said that, I will repeat that 14 teams for one season is a non starter for me as well ... this has to be tried for as many seasons as it takes to prove it is or isn't working, not as a sop to one club.

I disagree, i haven't one had conversation about it, yes its always there as a concept, but there has been zero push or momentum for things to change in recent years.

Im not saying its a bad thing per se, but a temporary restructuring that costs every other club money to stop one, fairly poorly run club, getting relegated, is a terrible basis to make such a fundamental decision and should be given the short shrift it deserves.

And no, not because its Hearts, but because any team facing relegation who propose such a solution in a naked attempt to save themselves at everyone elses expense should be laughed out of town. And i would say exactly the same if it were Hibs doing this.

[chippy]

Maybe not from the clubs, but the fans had been talking about it for years and there's a pile of threads on this forum and other club's forums, not to mention elsewhere on social media to prove it. The reason talk died down was because it was obvious the clubs didn't want it no matter how many fans did and especially the clubs to whom the size of the league didn't matter IE the Uglies .. why would they dilute their share of the pot for the benefit of Hamilton or ICT.

These are different times. Yes this new enthusiasm for reconstruction looks unsavoury because Hearts are the main pushers of it, but that doesn't mean its not something that isn't long overdue. Lets not kid ourselves on, there are two sides to this coin and the other one is a lot of fans, especially Hibs fans, who might have been up for reconstruction suddenly against it because it will bail out Hearts.

Having said that, I will repeat that 14 teams for one season is a non starter for me as well ... this has to be tried for as many seasons as it takes to prove it is or isn't working, not as a sop to one club.

Although I’m a 3 x 16 fan, your arguments against 12 and the even more cut throat 10 club mini league are sound and well made. I would totally support a 14 club league as you envisage if as seems likely not enough fancy the 16 teamer. Would you split the 14 after 26 games either 8/6 or 6/8 or 7/7. Frankly I’d accept either. But totally with you no support for it as a 1 year escape route for the Jambos. 4/5 year period then review

[Wakeyhibee]

I'm not sure the better crowds at Easter Road are anything to do with having 2 extra teams in the league. How about much less crowd trouble and a modern stadium rather than a crumbling death trap being more conducive to taking families, the football being much more entertaining than it was in the 80s, the economics of having limited number of seats leading people to buy season tickets therefore they turn up at all the games rather than just the big games against Hearts, Celtic and Rangers. Also, people on average are better off now than they were in the 1980s and have more disposable income to spend on entertainment. Don't also forget that our crowds have risen substantially since winning the Scottish Cup, there were plenty of seasons with a 12 team league where our crowds weren't that much better.....but aye having the likes of Hamilton and Ross County in the division might be the key to it right enough.

I think that was down to 2 things, only 2pts for a win and a high attrition rate for relegation made games defensive and negative. Hoofball reigned in large swathes from my memory.

3pts have made a difference but I would not like to chance a 10 team league again.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I disagree, i haven't one had conversation about it, yes its always there as a concept, but there has been zero push or momentum for things to change in recent years.

Im not saying its a bad thing per se, but a temporary restructuring that costs every other club money to stop one, fairly poorly run club, getting relegated, is a terrible basis to make such a fundamental decision and should be given the short shrift it deserves.

And no, not because its Hearts, but because any team facing relegation who propose such a solution in a naked attempt to save themselves at everyone elses expense should be laughed out of town. And i would say exactly the same if it were Hibs doing this.

Maybe you haven't mate, but plenty others have.

I've already said I don't support a one season measure just to suit Hearts or anybody else for that matter. A change to a bigger league no matter when or how it took place was always going to require some clubs to accept a smaller share of the pot, but in my opinion ( and it should be theirs as well ) the overall benefits would be worth it.

Sometimes doing the right thing pushed by the wrong reasons or bad reasons is still the right thing.

[Steve20]

League reconstruction will never get through any other way. Do it now or do it never. A 14 team league would be great.

No, it would be awful.

Why is there people so keen on keeping that lot in the league? Short memories of the cheating and winning trophies at our expense by doing so.

14 team league means you’re still going to play teams four times that are in your half of the league, so it’s a nonsense.

I really hope Hibs do the right thing and vote NO to any reconstruction plans.

[Waxy]

Would there be any vote anyway. Can any club just propose a vote at any time? Wouldnt think it could be done.It has to be thought through properly and for the right reasons with fair notice given.
Hearts are acting the psychological bully here as its a small hope of nullifying and getting away with their poor sporting performance this season.

[Diclonius]

No, it would be awful.

Why is there people so keen on keeping that lot in the league? Short memories of the cheating and winning trophies at our expense by doing so.

14 team league means you’re still going to play teams four times that are in your half of the league, so it’s a nonsense.

I really hope Hibs do the right thing and vote NO to any reconstruction plans.

I care more about Hibs than anything to do with Hearts. Whether or not Hearts get relegated doesn't make a difference to my decision.

[NAE NOOKIE]

No, it would be awful.

Why is there people so keen on keeping that lot in the league? Short memories of the cheating and winning trophies at our expense by doing so.

14 team league means you’re still going to play teams four times that are in your half of the league, so it’s a nonsense.

I really hope Hibs do the right thing and vote NO to any reconstruction plans.

Its not all about Hearts, for them it is, but not for me ... this is bigger than bloody Hearts and much as I hate them my obsession doesn't extend to denying something I actually think would benefit our game overall just to see them suffer.

If you dont think league reconstruction is a good idea from the POV of our whole game then that's a valid stance and I respect it. But if your only argument against it is because it will benefit Hearts then its a poor one if you ask me.

[Ozyhibby]

Would there be any vote anyway. Can any club just propose a vote at any time? Wouldnt think it could be done.It has to be thought through properly and for the right reasons with fair notice given.
Hearts are acting the psychological bully here as its a small hope of nullifying and getting away with their poor sporting performance this season.

Needs 5% of clubs, so 2.1 clubs.[emoji3]


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[Ozyhibby]

Its not all about Hearts, for them it is, but not for me ... this is bigger than bloody Hearts and much as I hate them my obsession doesn't extend to denying something I actually think would benefit our game overall just to see them suffer.

If you dont think league reconstruction is a good idea from the POV of our whole game then that's a valid stance and I respect it. But if your only argument against it is because it will benefit Hearts then its a poor one if you ask me.

I haven’t seen a proposal that puts more money in the pockets of the current top flight yet? Show me one and it’s worth discussing but until then you are wasting your time.


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[StevieC]

Reading the sports news today it seems like Dundee are holding off their vote for league reconstruction. Given that they are in 3rd position, I assume that means they want 3 Championship teams going into the Premiership .. and the only way for that to happen is if one drops out of it :hmmm:

[Waxy]

Reading the sports news today it seems like Dundee are holding off their vote for league reconstruction. Given that they are in 3rd position, I assume that means they want 3 Championship teams going into the Premiership .. and the only way for that to happen is if one drops out of it :hmmm:

Well when i said No to reconstruction.......,.,

[chippy]

I think the point being that if you are mid table in an 18 team league, you can't go down, can't win the league and can't qualify for Europe and you are playing a similar places team then it is a non event. More likely to happen in a bigger league. I actually think that this year was pretty exciting until it stopped.

That’s total nonsense. A larger league whether 14/16/18 can easily integrate splits into mini leagues that make games meaningful up to season end, have lots of derbies , exciting mini leagues with relegation or Europe as the prize . The Belgians(16) and the Danes(14) do it.

[NAE NOOKIE]

I haven’t seen a proposal that puts more money in the pockets of the current top flight yet? Show me one and it’s worth discussing but until then you are wasting your time.


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I've never once said that there is any form of reconstruction that would put more money into the pockets of the top flight, unless you want to go to 10 teams of course. My whole argument is that it would enable more clubs to benefit from a wider distribution of money and enable more to be promoted, more to stay in the top league for more than just a season and less chance of clubs languishing in the championship for season after season.

That's from my POV as a fan .... From the clubs point of view I agree that not many of them would be up for a smaller share of the pot, narrow self interest is for sure the main stumbling block to any chances of reconstruction, just as much as narrow self interest if driving Hearts sudden enthusiasm for it.

[greenpaper55]

I've never once said that there is any form of reconstruction that would put more money into the pockets of the top flight, unless you want to go to 10 teams of course. My whole argument is that it would enable more clubs to benefit from a wider distribution of money and enable more to be promoted, more to stay in the top league for more than just a season and less chance of clubs languishing in the championship for season after season.

That's from my POV as a fan .... From the clubs point of view I agree that not many of them would be up for a smaller share of the pot, narrow self interest is for sure the main stumbling block to any chances of reconstruction, just as much as narrow self interest if driving Hearts sudden enthusiasm for it.

Spot on, lets raise the standard across the board instead of the few.

[Dibben]

Reading the sports news today it seems like Dundee are holding off their vote for league reconstruction. Given that they are in 3rd position, I assume that means they want 3 Championship teams going into the Premiership .. and the only way for that to happen is if one drops out of it :hmmm:

Without talking about the finances... this is the only way to do reconstruction fairly... 😁

[Greenworld]

That’s total nonsense. A larger league whether 14/16/18 can easily integrate splits into mini leagues that make games meaningful up to season end, have lots of derbies , exciting mini leagues with relegation or Europe as the prize . The Belgians(16) and the Danes(14) do it.The thing is league has actually been exciting the last few seasons lots of meaningful games in the current 12 team format . Had this caronavirus not happened we woukd be trundleing along quite nicely.
This season is over there will be no more games so what do people want. We now have only a small number of clubs against this the vast majority for. We have rangers making all sorts of allegations and Hearts complaining bitterly that they would suddenly come good after 18 months of *****.
I'm sorry this needs settled very quickly and no reconstruction is required . I actually agree with what the spfl are trying to do and thats a first for me


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[greenpaper55]

It wouldn't be very exiting if we had been in the bottom six and safe from relegation, five meaningless games ?

[The dalmeny]

SLFL concluded no relegation.

[Ozyhibby]

SLFL concluded no relegation.

That’s because there is no lowland league 2. Spfl did the same with league 2.


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[SMAXXA]

Hearing Lowland met today and made the decision without consulting any club. Feeling is that Kelty and Brora will be promoted into league 2 with promotion to Lowland if either Bo’ness or threave. Would mean leagues are being reconstructed for a decision to be taken so quickly by the LL, but there again who can say at this stage.

I feel reconstruction is going to win the day and to be honest as much as I don’t want it and I want hearts down it may be the least worse option on the table.

[Ozyhibby]

Hearing Lowland met today and made the decision without consulting any club. Feeling is that Kelty and Brora will be promoted into league 2 with promotion to Lowland if either Bo’ness or threave. Would mean leagues are being reconstructed for a decision to be taken so quickly by the LL, but there again who can say at this stage.

I feel reconstruction is going to win the day and to be honest as much as I don’t want it and I want hearts down it may be the least worse option on the table.

I think the opposite. In fact I would not be surprised to see the top flight vote 11-1 against any change.


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[The dalmeny]

That’s because there is no lowland league 2. Spfl did the same with league 2.


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Furthermore, the board would like to make it clear that it feels that no member club should be disadvantaged by the current health crisis we face, and as such there will be no relegation from the SLFL in season 2019/20. We are aware of the implications for our fellow pyramid leagues, the EoSFL and SoSFL, and will announce contingency plans to cover this in due course.

[Waxy]

SLFL concluded no relegation.

Yes i think the lowland is its own organisation. They can do this. Scottish league can only stop relegation at the very bottom (Brechin)

[Waxy]

Bump

[Lee Marvin]

Hibs will do the right thing when we vote on this next week, I'm sure of that.

[Heisenberg]

Ann Budge in charge of the reconstruction task force set up by the SPFL along with the Hamilton chairman.

[EI255]

The current SPL clubs (Hearts and The Rangers aside) have always avoided any talk of a bigger top flight. Why would they want another two clubs to enter now?

Not a chance they'll vote it through.

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[we are hibs]

Hibernian must vote against this. It goes against all sporting integrity to change the leagues for one season and to declare champions and no relegation.

[Bostonhibby]

Ann Budge in charge of the reconstruction task force set up by the SPFL along with the Hamilton chairman.Kick it, sorry her, into the long grass for a couple of months then when the one dimensional Save Hearts In Trouble proposal comes forward, obviously stopping the bottom club being relegated, make sure they don't meet the voting threshold, job done, bottom club and biggest losers in the league relegated.

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[Lee Marvin]

Hibernian must vote against this. It goes against all sporting integrity to change the leagues for one season and to declare champions and no relegation.

I'd guess at least 90% of the fans want a no vote, Hibs will vote on behalf of the vast majority of its stakeholders. The board almost dont have a choice

[Since452]

League reconstruction isn't going to happen

[Since452]

Ann Budge in charge of the reconstruction task force set up by the SPFL along with the Hamilton chairman.

She couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. Pleasing.

[bringbackbenny]

The current SPL clubs (Hearts and The Rangers aside) have always avoided any talk of a bigger top flight. Why would they want another two clubs to enter now?

Not a chance they'll vote it through.

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So, assuming Annie votes yes to her own proposal it only needs 2 of the remaining 11 to vote No and it'll be scuppered. Got to be lip service to keep her quiet.

[we are hibs]

I'd guess at least 90% of the fans want a no vote, Hibs will vote on behalf of the vast majority of its stakeholders. The board almost dont have a choice

90% is kind. I think 98% of hibs fans would oppose the leagues being changed (100% if they propose a one season change) purely to save clubs who are run that poorly they sit bottom after 30 odd games.

[Waxy]

Hearts should do the right thing now and accept relegation. They were by far the worst team this season and finished bottom.
In the spfl that means you get demoted to the championship.
Now lets move on.

[bringbackbenny]

Hearts should do the right thing now and accept relegation. They were by far the worst team this season and finished bottom.
In the spfl that means you get demoted to the championship.
Now lets move on.

That would rely on them doing the decent thing. Goes against all Yam principles.

[Bishop Hibee]

Reconstruction will happen and the clubs will vote unanimously for it. It will be 11-1 for Celtc being voted Champions.

[judas]

I am absolutely opposed to league reconstruction.

This is all about saving Hearts from a fate they deserved.

There should be a poll, and the result of that poll should be presented to Leanne.

Hibs net represents a sizeable sample of the Hibs support.

If 3 top flight clubs oppose reconstruction, then it’s a dead duck.

[RoxburghHibs]

I am absolutely opposed to league reconstruction.

This is all about saving Hearts from a fate they deserved.

There should be a poll, and the result of that poll should be presented to Leanne.

Hibs net represents a sizeable sample of the Hibs support.

If 3 top flight clubs oppose reconstruction, then it’s a dead duck.

Agreed 100% and I will sign that - but think it should be passed to Leeann.

[Waxy]

4 leagues of 12 now maybe as the spfl wont change.
Brora, inverurie and Fraserburgh from the Highland and Kelty,Bonnyrigg and East Stirling (remember them) from the lowland all join the bottom div along with the bottom six
Top four in div 2 are promoted and join bottom 8 in div 1
Falkirk Raith and Hearts all join the championship with Dundee utd up.
There you are, four leagues of 12 and jobs a goodun.
With the added bonus of only one relegation keeping almost everyone happy. I just did the reconstruction task forces job for them.

[RoxburghHibs]

4 leagues of 12 now maybe as the spfl wont change.
Brora, inverurie and Fraserburgh from the Highland and Kelty,Bonnyrigg and East Stirling (remember them) from the lowland all join the bottom div along with the bottom six
Top four in div 2 are promoted and join bottom 8 in div 1
Falkirk Raith and Hearts all join the championship with Dundee utd up.
There you are, four leagues of 12 and jobs a goodun.
With the added bonus of only one relegation keeping almost everyone happy. I just did the reconstruction task forces job for them.

Agreed but go for 12-12-10-10 format with two clubs added to league two.

[Scotty Leither]

I am absolutely opposed to league reconstruction.

This is all about saving Hearts from a fate they deserved.

There should be a poll, and the result of that poll should be presented to Leanne.

Hibs net represents a sizeable sample of the Hibs support.

If 3 top flight clubs oppose reconstruction, then it’s a dead duck.

Yes, that's pretty much where I am. It's quite incredible that the one club that stands to lose the most is jointly heading up the "steering group" for reconstruction.

I think that Budge will try and paint this as being all for the "greater good" of Scottish football and try and manufacture an EGM of all clubs in the Scottish leagues having an equal vote, with the usual SPFL 11-1 majority being suspended for this one vote.

If she can get the lower league clubs on side with some vague sweeteners like a bigger share of prize money it could carry the day and effectively nobble the Premiership clubs and render their votes meaningless.

I also think Hibs have got to be more vocal in all of this.

I'm not talking about competing with the other statement drama queens, as the outpourings from some of them have verged on the banal, but dignified silence and taking the moral high ground over the years has brought us precisely nothing, especially when it has involved how we engage with the fur coat and nae knickers mob from across the city.

The club have either got to publically back NO reconstruction, with the bottom team being relegated and the top team from the Championship being promoted thus retaining the 12-team set up; or three up from the Championship with the bottom team again being relegated to increase the top league to 14, if there's a clamour for expansion.

16 teams is a total non-starter financially, especially as all clubs are going to be heading into straitened times anyway with the after-effects of Covid 19.

If that's seen as sticking it to them, so be it, it's the very least they would do to us if the roles were reversed, and they would take great delight in doing so.

The Board have got to pick their moment too...they chose the right path last week, let's see them stick to that. Please.

[H18 SFR]

I want to know what our board think of this nonsense before hitting the pay button for our season tickets.

[Real Emerald]

It really is like giving the head turkey the task of cancelling Christmas at Halloween as a last throw to save their lives. I wish I could draw a cartoon of that 😂

[truehibernian]

I want to know what our board think of this nonsense before hitting the pay button for our season tickets.

Why bud ? Our club have been clear. transparent, and dealt with things with great humility and compassion. I'd have absolutely no hesitation if you can afford it - hit 'pay now' :aok::flag:

[H18 SFR]

Why bud ? Our club have been clear. transparent, and dealt with things with great humility and compassion. I'd have absolutely no hesitation if you can afford it - hit 'pay now' :aok::flag:

Totally agree. They are the polar opposite. If we vote to support them after their clear lack of fiscal prudence then I won’t feel the need to buy a season ticket.

[Waxy]

Every other team who finished the season bottom goes down.
Why are hearts any different?
All they see is an oppertunity. Using the C19 situation for their own benefit.
Scandalous as they’ve always been.
Mercer, Romanov, poppy debts etc.

[truehibernian]

Totally agree. They are the polar opposite. If we vote to support them after their clear lack of fiscal prudence then I won’t feel the need to buy a season ticket.

I'd buy one regardless (if you can) - Hibs need the money too for next season - club needs our financial (and vocal) support more than ever. The way Hibs have conducted themselves throughout this horrible crisis has been commendable and I'd buy one just for that alone.

[Waxy]

Another smallish thing.
Clubs have already sold thousands of season tickets
On the premise there will be 12 clubs in the league.
Surely that in itself makes it impossible to have more than 12 clubs in the league next season?

[neil7908]

This was always my worry.

If the season was played out as it should have been Hearts would be down. Allowing lower league clubs to be relegated but saving the worst team in the SPL would be an absolute travesty.

If I was a Partick Thistle fan I'd be raging.

How reconstruction can be led by the two clubs occupying the bottom 2 places is beyond me.

We as a club must resist this strongly unless there are clear benefits to Hibs. And that is highly unlikely.

[steviehibsleith]

Posted this maybe in wrong chat but if the season is now over. Surely future vote for reconstruction is Dundee UTD vote Hearts don’t get one they are relageted

[CropleyWasGod]

Posted this maybe in wrong chat but if the season is now over. Surely future vote for reconstruction is Dundee UTD vote Hearts don’t get one they are relageted

The Premiership hasn't been called yet.

[danhibees1875]

Have they said when the vote will be?

[steviehibsleith]

The Premiership hasn't been called yet.
Blast so it hasn’t

[Real Emerald]

It really is like giving the head turkey the task of cancelling Christmas at Halloween as a last throw to save their lives. I wish I could draw a cartoon of that 😂

[hibbyfraelibby]

4 leagues of 12 now maybe as the spfl wont change.
Brora, inverurie and Fraserburgh from the Highland and Kelty,Bonnyrigg and East Stirling (remember them) from the lowland all join the bottom div along with the bottom six
Top four in div 2 are promoted and join bottom 8 in div 1
Falkirk Raith and Hearts all join the championship with Dundee utd up.
There you are, four leagues of 12 and jobs a goodun.
With the added bonus of only one relegation keeping almost everyone happy. I just did the reconstruction task forces job for them.

I've been banging on for 12/12 for a while so taking it to 12/12/12/12 would be acceptable if we move to the 8/8/8 split fod the top 2 as well as the bottom two.

It has a symetry that comes with 48 teams, including a nice regular playdown for cup competitions.

One thing though. As the top league is already a 12 one team minimum needs relegated to alliw DUFC up if it happens for next season.😉

[Billy Whizz]

I want to know what our board think of this nonsense before hitting the pay button for our season tickets.

I think we’ll take our council private as usual

No point having Hearts in the top league, their fans are boycotting all away grounds

[Aldo]

Why are we even looking at reconstruction. It’s really all about 1 team and that’s Ha Ha Hearts!

They are not interested in anyone else bar themselves.

**** league Reconstruction and **** Ha Ha Hearts.


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[Onion]

Difficult to see why 10 of the top clubs would agree to share the proceeds of the Sky TV deal with 2 more clubs at a time when all but Celtic will be in a pretty dire financial position after the COVID close down ? Some of these clubs will be running on air by the time the season starts and worried about their own survival. Their responsibility to their shareholders and fans will be top priority. Giving up cash to save Hearts (a club that has pissed away more money than most of these clubs could dream about) won't be high on their wish list.

[Billy Whizz]

Why are we even looking at reconstruction. It’s really all about 1 team and that’s Ha Ha Hearts!

They are not interested in anyone else bar themselves.

**** league Reconstruction and **** Ha Ha Hearts.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It is in a way for the Premiership, but if she was to get agreement for a 14 team league, would save Partick, and get Falkirk up

[CB_NO3]

Reconstruction will happen and the clubs will vote unanimously for it. It will be 11-1 for Celtc being voted Champions.

Care to elaborate?

[Aldo]

It is in a way for the Premiership, but if she was to get agreement for a 14 team league, would save Partick, and get Falkirk up

It is but I wonder if the SPFL are just giving her lip service? Dangle the carrot do the knees scenario?


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[greenginger]

The first question to Mrs Budge when she starts calling her fellow chair people of the Premier league is.

Have you ran these proposals past the people at Sky and have they given you cast iron guarantees in writing, triple signed in blood that the proposals will not affect the new tv deal ?

If not there’s no point in discussing anything !

[Tyler Durden]

There is nothing to worry about, there’s absolutely no chance of reconstruction. It’s a token gesture to placate Budge, nothing more.

[Onion]

This was always my worry.

If the season was played out as it should have been Hearts would be down. Allowing lower league clubs to be relegated but saving the worst team in the SPL would be an absolute travesty.

If I was a Partick Thistle fan I'd be raging.

How reconstruction can be led by the two clubs occupying the bottom 2 places is beyond me.

We as a club must resist this strongly unless there are clear benefits to Hibs. And that is highly unlikely.

Hearts have most to gain, unless they propose 3 up 1 down :greengrin Making them come up with a structure that ticks all the boxes for fairness, integrity, money distribution, practicality and meets the approval of Sky is very smart.

Now that Dundee have released the reigns, power has shifted firmly to the SPFL and the 85% and they'll remember exactly how the Huns and Hearts threatened and behaved. This is dead before they even start and Ann Budge will be worked like a dog for nothing.:thumbsup:

[Stokesy's on fire]

No to reconstruction 100%

[tamig]

Care to elaborate?

I couldn’t make my mind up if it was a strange joke that went right over my head or not. I didn’t think it was a serious view though.

[hibbyfraelibby]

It is in a way for the Premiership, but if she was to get agreement for a 14 team league, would save Partick, and get Falkirk up

A 12 team Championship saves Partick and buys Falkirk's vote and as a consequence Stranraer and Edinburgh City.

[CB_NO3]

Another thing to consider is the TV money goes upto £26M next season. Why would the current 12 clubs (minus Hearts) want to split that between 14 clubs?

[Waxy]

Another thing to consider is the TV money goes upto £26M next season. Why would the current 12 clubs (minus Hearts) want to split that between 14 clubs?

Wont the jambos get a parachute payment?

[CB_NO3]

They will.

[WoreTheGreen]

Wont the jambos get a parachute payment?

Oh f——g great don’t mention the war

[coldingham hibs]

If reconstruction allows Hearts to stay in the Premiership then Hibs will support it. 2,3 or 4 derbies a season will have a significant financial impact and nobody in the Hibs hierarchy will turn that down.

[StevieC]

Let’s focus on the other team involved with this reconstruction plan .. Hamilton have had an annual play-off battle, when it’s one team getting relegated .. why would their chairman put forward a plan that would involve 2 (possibly 3) teams getting automatically relegated?

As I’ve said, it’s a master stroke to have those two teams organising a reconstruction plan that is doomed to fail.

[007]

Any proposal will be worse than what we currently have otherwise the league would have been restructured before now. We have already agreed to take a £125k hit to get the leagues called and help out struggling clubs. Why should we take a further hit to help out Hearts who have the 4th biggest income in the league but are the worst team and the worst managed club. If they can show how not one single current Premiership club will be worse off under their proposal then they can come to the table, otherwise, tell them to gtf.

[erin go bragh]

If reconstruction allows Hearts to stay in the Premiership then Hibs will support it. 2,3 or 4 derbies a season will have a significant financial impact and nobody in the Hibs hierarchy will turn that down.
1 or 2 home Derby’s won’t compensate for the loss of diluting the Sky money with an extra 2 or more clubs than the present 12 .
Throw in Utd and for the 1 or 2 games at ER ( brought nearly 2 k fans for a midweek night game )
We get nowt for the Derby’s at the PBS .

[StevieC]

If reconstruction allows Hearts to stay in the Premiership then Hibs will support it. 2,3 or 4 derbies a season will have a significant financial impact and nobody in the Hibs hierarchy will turn that down.

They will if it means one less OF game (and potentially one less derby game) for the next however many seasons until it’s changed again.
And that’s what we’d potentially be looking at with a larger league and a split after 2 rounds of fixtures instead of 3.

[Peevemor]

If reconstruction allows Hearts to stay in the Premiership then Hibs will support it. 2,3 or 4 derbies a season will have a significant financial impact and nobody in the Hibs hierarchy will turn that down.Hibs have already voted to take a financial hit because it was the right thing to do. Why do you assume we'll do differently this time?

Also, Hearts in the same league would only guarantee 1 derby at ER.