St Johnstone can't sustain their wage bill!!!

[where'stheslope]

The next club falling into trouble seems to be St Johnstone, their chairman says they are running at a massive loss, but has funds to cover this year?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51607656

It even gives a insight into why they turned 3 stands over to the old firm to try and arrest their losses!

It seems that it is again down to their home support not turning up for games?

Yesterday, when watching their game V Rangers, made me think, if they get to a semi or final will they ask for a 50/50 split of tickets or settle for 3000 tickets???

[Since452]

Sixth biggest wage bill in the Premiership with crowds of 2k. Something doesn't add up.

[Peevemor]

Sixth biggest wage bill in the Premiership with crowds of 2k. Something doesn't add up.

Which is exactly what their chairman is saying.

At least he acknowledges that they're overspending. Unlike some...

[The 90+2]

Which is exactly what their chairman is saying.

At least he acknowledges that they're overspending. Unlike some...

Isn’t it making excuses for selling out to the old firm?

[CMurdoch]

Think Mr Brown is redressing the balance with Mr Wright.
Has sensibly let Tommy's January blast pass over and then waited until the team is performing before having his say.
It's an answer in kind to Wrights original criticism of the club not spending on players. It's also an answer to those asking why they gave 3 stands to Rangers.
Along with Hamilton & Livingston, St Johnstone are a poorly supported team.
Teams need to be averaging 6000 fans at home games to bring in sufficient income but it's never going to happen for these teams.
Dundee Utd will be back in the top league next season and that will leave only Dunfermline and Falkirk of the better supported teams outside the top league.
Hamilton, Livingston and St Johnstone are Champioship teams in all but their current league status so will always struggle unless they can somehow stem the flow of locals to Parkhead and Ibrox.

[chrisski33]

Not if its true and need more money coming in if not enough st johnstone fans turning up

[MWHIBBIES]

Cheats

[KingPat4]

Isn’t it making excuses for selling out to the old firm?


Perth is not a big city. What are they supposed to do?
Pressgang people into McDiarmid Park?

St Johnstone punch above their weight and took a point off the Hun yesterday, which is more than we have done this season.

I've noticed around an extra 2,000 on the gates against the Old Firm recently. Needs must and all that, good luck to them.

[Unseen work]

Hopefully could get guys like Jason Kerr and Alistair McCann from them on the cheap in summer then.

[H18 SFR]

The chairman does quantify that they have cash reserves and are using them to plug the gap in finances.

I'd imagine there will be no demise of St Johnstone here or a flash sale of players in the summer.

[hibeerealist]

Think Mr Brown is redressing the balance with Mr Wright.
Has sensibly let Tommy's January blast pass over and then waited until the team is performing before having his say.
It's an answer in kind to Wrights original criticism of the club not spending on players. It's also an answer to those asking why they gave 3 stands to Rangers.
Along with Hamilton & Livingston, St Johnstone are a poorly supported team.
Teams need to be averaging 6000 fans at home games to bring in sufficient income but it's never going to happen for these teams.
Dundee Utd will be back in the top league next season and that will leave only Dunfermline and Falkirk of the better supported teams outside the top league.
Hamilton, Livingston and St Johnstone are Champioship teams in all but their current league status so will always struggle unless they can somehow stem the flow of locals to Parkhead and Ibrox.

Dundee, think they get bigger crowds than pars?

[NAE NOOKIE]

The absence of Dundee and Dundee Utd in the same season probably hasn't helped them either, both clubs would bring far bigger away supports to Perth than the likes of Hamilton or St Mirren.

You have to ask how long the non big city clubs can sustain full time football for, I can see some of them ending up part time unless things improve, if St Johnstone cant pay full time wages how can Hamilton, Ross County or Killie for example. If anything will get our clubs thinking of British leagues that might, how long would the likes of Hibs and Hearts want to hang around in a league whose appeal and stature is being diminished by having part time clubs in its top division?

If it came to it .... and lets not forget Holland and Belgium are actively looking at a merger .... I could see the uglies along with Hibs, Hearts,Aberdeen and a merged Dundee club having a certain appeal to the EFL ...... though I would imagine Plymouth Argyle or Portsmouth would think of Aberdeen as a trip to the ends of the earth :greengrin

[CockneyRebel]

The absence of Dundee and Dundee Utd in the same season probably hasn't helped them either, both clubs would bring far bigger away supports to Perth than the likes of Hamilton or St Mirren.

You have to ask how long the non big city clubs can sustain full time football for, I can see some of them ending up part time unless things improve, if St Johnstone cant pay full time wages how can Hamilton, Ross County or Killie for example. If anything will get our clubs thinking of British leagues that might, how long would the likes of Hibs and Hearts want to hang around in a league whose appeal and stature is being diminished by having part time clubs in its top division?

If it came to it .... and lets not forget Holland and Belgium are actively looking at a merger .... I could see the uglies along with Hibs, Hearts,Aberdeen and a merged Dundee club having a certain appeal to the EFL ...... though I would imagine Plymouth Argyle or Portsmouth would think of Aberdeen as a trip to the ends of the earth :greengrin




That's how it feels when I go there and I'm only going from Edinburgh

[wpj]

The absence of Dundee and Dundee Utd in the same season probably hasn't helped them either, both clubs would bring far bigger away supports to Perth than the likes of Hamilton or St Mirren.

You have to ask how long the non big city clubs can sustain full time football for, I can see some of them ending up part time unless things improve, if St Johnstone cant pay full time wages how can Hamilton, Ross County or Killie for example. If anything will get our clubs thinking of British leagues that might, how long would the likes of Hibs and Hearts want to hang around in a league whose appeal and stature is being diminished by having part time clubs in its top division?

If it came to it .... and lets not forget Holland and Belgium are actively looking at a merger .... I could see the uglies along with Hibs, Hearts,Aberdeen and a merged Dundee club having a certain appeal to the EFL ...... though I would imagine Plymouth Argyle or Portsmouth would think of Aberdeen as a trip to the ends of the earth :greengrin

Plymouth v Carlisle is a mission for both teams this season. Watching Cambridge v Carlisle next Saturday which is a long enough schlep for them

[Sir David Gray]

St Johnstone should be nowhere near the 6th highest spenders in the league.

9th or 10th would be more realistic.

[The 90+2]

Perth is not a big city. What are they supposed to do?
Pressgang people into McDiarmid Park?

St Johnstone punch above their weight and took a point off the Hun yesterday, which is more than we have done this season.

I've noticed around an extra 2,000 on the gates against the Old Firm recently. Needs must and all that, good luck to them.

I didn’t say it was wrong, you take into account the amount of glory hunting bigots too.

[Deansy]

Cheats

It's Scottish football - it's allowed !

[500miles]

Cheats

Depends. If they find themselves in unsustainable debt by keeping those high earners, then try to write the debt off, then yeah.

If they flog the high earners at the end of the season, and balance the books, no.

[Smartie]

Cheats

Do we have any idea what constitutes a “cheat” in Scottish football these days?

[Viva_Palmeiras]

Ultimate irony - downfall of many Scottish institutions - failure to adhere to one of the accounting principles of prudence - not counting your chickens before they hatch. Shame as the irresponsible behaviour of a number of members tipping others into untenable positions. Dereliction of duty on behalf of the football authorities and it’s a global phenomenon - what is their vision? If it doesn’t include the _sustainable_ advancement of the game whilst protecting grass roots maybe need to rethink.

[ekhibee]

Without knowing what St Johnstone pay their players it's difficult to comment on really. They've often been complimented on how their club was run, but it's quite difficult to maintain that if there is a limited fanbase. There's always the possibility that Brown might be suggesting that there isn't going to be a constant supply of money to prop them up each season, and that other financial streams need to be explored.

[Bostonhibby]

Do we have any idea what constitutes a “cheat” in Scottish football these days?I'll nominate not paying the Lady Haig poppy fund, bumping the big Hearts charity and the Macraes Battalion trust so you can spend the money on football players wages in pursuit of yamageddon.

Other nominations welcome.

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[Vault Boy]

Depends. If they find themselves in unsustainable debt by keeping those high earners, then try to write the debt off, then yeah.

If they flog the high earners at the end of the season, and balance the books, no.

Exactly. They've been transparent in saying their top six spending is going to all but eradicate their reserves and that this won't continue, can't see how they've cheated anything as it stands.

[CMurdoch]

Dundee, think they get bigger crowds than pars?

Correct.
Basically things would be healthier in the top league if 3 of Dundee Utd, Dundee, Dunfermline and Falkirk can replace Hamilton, Livingston and St Johnstone.
Less than 5000 fans on average per game brings insufficient income in a league where our clubs are massively dependent on fans money.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

This is an illustration of the potential downside of speculating to accumulate.

[Bostonhibby]

This is an illustration of the potential downside of speculating to accumulate.[emoji106]

Accumulate before speculating, or paying your way - it's your own money and no charities are harmed in pursuit of your dreams, attainable or otherwise.

Not to mention the stigma that follows you around if you do it the other way, the yam/sevco way.

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[Peevemor]

Exactly. They've been transparent in saying their top six spending is going to all but eradicate their reserves and that this won't continue, can't see how they've cheated anything as it stands.Exactly. Hibs run at a loss one year in every two or three. Doesn't mean we're cheating.


I suspect the initial "cheats" comment was tongue in cheek though.

[The 90+2]

[emoji106]

Accumulate before speculating, or paying your way - it's your own money and no charities are harmed in pursuit of your dreams, attainable or otherwise.

Not to mention the stigma that follows you around if you do it the other way, the yam/sevco way.

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If they have money in the bank to cover it then they can speculate all they like. Fair play for having the baws to do so.

[Frazerbob]

Clubs like St Johnstone, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Hamilton, Aidrie etc used to pull in far bigger crowds in the 80’s and early ‘90’s. Ironically, our crowds would regularly drop to 5 or 6k in those days. Dunfermline in particular used to have a great support. I remember we played them in the cup at ER when they where in the 3rd tier and they brought about 5k. Also recall a 3-3 draw at East End on the opening day of the season and the stadium was bursting at the seems. Fast forward 20 years or so and we played them again at EEP on the opening day with the game moved to a Monday night for TV. Think there was about 2k home fans.

[Bostonhibby]

If they have money in the bank to cover it then they can speculate all they like. Fair play for having the baws to do so.If you mean St. Johnstone we're in agreement [emoji106]

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[theonlywayisup]

You can see why they gave the Old Firm three stands. Makes it better when you score a late equaliser.

[jgl07]

Clubs like St Johnstone, Dunfermline, Falkirk, Hamilton, Aidrie etc used to pull in far bigger crowds in the 80’s and early ‘90’s. Ironically, our crowds would regularly drop to 5 or 6k in those days.

Hibs crowds sometimes dropped to 4,000 or less in the early 1990s. Usually against St Johnstone.

On April 6 1993, the crowd against St Johnstone was 3,526.

The following season on November 30, there were 4,998 at Easter Road for the same team.

The daft thing was that Hibs away matches at McDiarmid Park usually attracted better crowds than those at Easter Road. On August 29, 1992 there were 6,017. There were 4,206 on January 23 1993 and 5,008 on September 18 1993.

So while Hibs, Hearts, and Aberdeen fans (not to mention Rangers and Celtic) have increased crowds considerably since the early 1990s, the likes of St Johnstone (along with Kilmarnock, Falkirk, etc) have gone down the pan.

[RIP Bestie]

Correct.
Basically things would be healthier in the top league if 3 of Dundee Utd, Dundee, Dunfermline and Falkirk can replace Hamilton, Livingston and St Johnstone.
Less than 5000 fans on average per game brings insufficient income in a league where our clubs are massively dependent on fans money.

Unfortunately you can't just hand pick the teams that are going to form the top league. Surely doing so would take away every element of sporting.integrity.
I agree bigger crowds and better supported clubs may increase the amount of money spent on players but that doesnt always guarantee an increase in quality. I think the likes of Livingston and Hamilton should be commended for the way they are now being run and still maintaining their top flight status. Thats healthy.
If we are not careful we could be accused of a snobbery that we associate with the old firm who regularly spout off about how its all the other clubs that are holding them back

[Geo_1875]

Cheats

Not really. They're spending their own money.

[FilipinoHibs]

Attendances falling away. In 1989 when the stadium opened the average was just over 4,600 and sold out for the visit of Rangers (over 10,600).

[Phil MaGlass]

As long as they dinnae go bankrupt before hertz go doon, that"ll dae me :thumbsup:

[Caversham Green]

At 31 May 2019 St Johnstone had £2.1m useable reserves and a similar amount of cash in the bank. They made a loss of £175,400 for the year to that date. That's not unhealthy for a club of their size and they can afford to sustain a fairly large loss in the current year but couldn't let that continue into next year. Those reserves are profits they've made but not used in the past so they're anything but cheats.

By comparison, on 30 June 2019 Hearts had negative reserves of just over £17m and £591,000 in the bank (that's after an extra month of collecting season ticket money compared with St Johnstone). They would have made a loss of around £300,000 but for donations of £3.25m. If anyone can be called cheats......

[MB62]

How Livi can still exist on the gates they get are astonishing to me. About 2 weeks ago they had 1263 for a midweek game against St. Mirren, then a few days later they sign Efe Ambrose! How on earth can they afford to do that on those kind of attendances?

[Ozyhibby]

I didn’t say it was wrong, you take into account the amount of glory hunting bigots too.

That’s the same in every country in the world. People leave small town all over the north of England to go watch Man Utd every week.


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[Ozyhibby]

Do we have any idea what constitutes a “cheat” in Scottish football these days?

There is no FFP in Scottish football. We prefer to wait until a club goes bust and then hit them with a points penalty.
It’s a bit like not having speed limits but waiting till someone dies before punishing the speeding driver.


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[Peevemor]

That’s the same in every country in the world. People leave small town all over the north of England to go watch Man Utd every week.


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It's definitely worse in Scotland than France.
Out of the people I know here who follow football, the vast majority support Rennes, a few support Guingamp, a couple support Nantes and I know one each of PSG, Marseile & Lyon.

Guingamp's ST holders outnumber the town's population.

[The Baldmans Comb]

Absolutely crazy I know but they could maybe pay their players less and budget better.

Not the current lot who are contracted but in the summer when their will be a turnover of 7/8 players then you replace the £1.5K a week lads with £1K a week lads.

It really is so simple as wages and salaries is the biggest expense any club has.

18 months from now and you eradicate your deficit.

Brown of course knows this very well but made a gamble on the TV money by finishing Top 6 and a cup run but their awful start put paid to that.

[Kato]

How Livi can still exist on the gates they get are astonishing to me. About 2 weeks ago they had 1263 for a midweek game against St. Mirren, then a few days later they sign Efe Ambrose! How on earth can they afford to do that on those kind of attendances?In the past they were able to do that as the club was used to launder cash. Dunno about these days.

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[The Baldmans Comb]

How Livi can still exist on the gates they get are astonishing to me. About 2 weeks ago they had 1263 for a midweek game against St. Mirren, then a few days later they sign Efe Ambrose! How on earth can they afford to do that on those kind of attendances?

They would have signed Efe on the basis of TV money as at the start of season would have budgeted for being in the bottom 6 somewhere around 8th to 10th.

Finishing 5th or 6th will mean an extra £500,000 TV money based on a placement they didn't expect hence a luxury marquee signing like Efe.

[SquashedFrogg]

How Livi can still exist on the gates they get are astonishing to me. About 2 weeks ago they had 1263 for a midweek game against St. Mirren, then a few days later they sign Efe Ambrose! How on earth can they afford to do that on those kind of attendances?

Maybe their assistant has a wad of cash stashed away?

[lord bunberry]

They would have signed Efe on the basis of TV money as at the start of season would have budgeted for being in the bottom 6 somewhere around 8th to 10th.

Finishing 5th or 6th will mean an extra £500,000 TV money based on a placement they didn't expect hence a luxury marquee signing like Efe.
They’ve also been giving away teams 3 sides of their stadium for years, geographically they’re in a far better position than a team like St Johnstone for away fans. Both hibs and hearts will take 2 or 3 times the support to Livingston than Perth.