This stupid bloody split.

[greenlex]

If the top six and bottom six stay as is it will mean Celtic have played the other five twice away and once at home. Rangers will be the opposite having played the other five twice at home and once away. In an equitable world Celtic will face them all at home and Rangers all of them away. This won’t however happen. Bollocks.

[hibbysam]

If the top six and bottom six stay as is it will mean Celtic have played the other five twice away and once at home. Rangers will be the opposite having played the other five twice at home and once away. In an equitable world Celtic will face them all at home and Rangers all of them away. This won’t however happen. Bollocks.

Forgive me for not worrying about rangers and Celtic and fairness. The split for all its flaws gives many teams plenty to play for until at worst 5 games to go and then means everyone that’s either playing for Europe/league/relegation are playing against the others in that position.

[Since452]

I actually quite like the split. Keeps things interesting

[greenlex]

Forgive me for not worrying about rangers and Celtic and fairness. The split for all its flaws gives many teams plenty to play for until at worst 5 games to go and then means everyone that’s either playing for Europe/league/relegation are playing against the others in that position.
I’m not worried about them either mate. If either or both of them are getting messed around so will the rest. At least two will be going to Ibrox for a third time chasing Europe and conversely two wont have to go to Parkhead more than once over the season. It’s a pile of poo.

[Wakeyhibee]

If the top six and bottom six stay as is it will mean Celtic have played the other five twice away and once at home. Rangers will be the opposite having played the other five twice at home and once away. In an equitable world Celtic will face them all at home and Rangers all of them away. This won’t however happen. Bollocks.

Whether you're a fan of the split or not, you would have thought the organisers would have known this given the expectation of Rangers, Aberdeen, and Hibs all being likely to finish top 6 at the beginning off the campaign.

Maybe they thought Hearts + 1 other would have been there too :greengrin (dont know if that would make a difference).

It's not ideal and I'm no fan either, maybe the fixtures should be announced for the first 2 rounds of games. Then the 3rd and split done later once they see who's more likely to be there.

[JeMeSouviens]

If the top six and bottom six stay as is it will mean Celtic have played the other five twice away and once at home. Rangers will be the opposite having played the other five twice at home and once away. In an equitable world Celtic will face them all at home and Rangers all of them away. This won’t however happen. Bollocks.

Except that wouldn’t be equitable either because Celtc would have 22 home games over the season. It’s just pish.

[hibbysam]

Whether you're a fan of the split or not, you would have thought the organisers would have known this given the expectation of Rangers, Aberdeen, and Hibs all being likely to finish top 6 at the beginning off the campaign.

Maybe they thought Hearts + 1 other would have been there too :greengrin (dont know if that would make a difference).

It's not ideal and I'm no fan either, maybe the fixtures should be announced for the first 2 rounds of games. Then the 3rd and split done later once they see who's more likely to be there.

It’s all based on previous seasons league placings. Presuming if hearts and Killie had made the top 6 instead of Livingston and Motherwell that it would’ve worked out correctly.

[wookie70]

The most important thing is to get 19 home games. It doesn't matter a great deal to us if we miss an uglies fixture at home as it is only a couple of thousand extra tickets. More a difference for Livi. I'm more concerned about the 3 teams outwith the Uglies as they may be 6 pointers and I'd like 2 of them at home if we get top 6.

[Eyrie]

The correct time to have a split (if there has to be one) is after the second round of fixtures, when everyone has played each team home and away for a total of 22 games. This provides a natural time to hold the winter break.

Then the top eight clubs can play each other home and away again for a further 14 matches and a total of 36 games. Two less than at present, which means fewer midweek fixtures after the break. The final placings will determine the title and European football.

The bottom four clubs would also play a mini-league of 14 games with the top four from the Championship, with the top four clubs getting promoted for the next season. Relegation would therefore be much easier to recover from.

The Championship would need expanded to twelve teams so that its bottom eight sides would also form a mini-league.

Below that would be a national league of the remaining eighteen teams playing home and away for 34 matches.

If we wanted to be truly radical then whoever is top at the split gets a Europa League place and the points are reset at nil for the second part of the season. This could result in someone outwith the Ugly Sisters having a chance at the title so expect it to be a non-starter.

[DH1875]

Not a fan of the split. 6th or 7th, it's the same to me. Rubbish.
As for Celtic.....will work in our favour this time around. We will play them at ER 3 times.

[wookie70]

The correct time to have a split (if there has to be one) is after the second round of fixtures, when everyone has played each team home and away for a total of 22 games. This provides a natural time to hold the winter break.

Then the top eight clubs can play each other home and away again for a further 14 matches and a total of 36 games. Two less than at present, which means fewer midweek fixtures after the break. The final placings will determine the title and European football.

The bottom four clubs would also play a mini-league of 14 games with the top four from the Championship, with the top four clubs getting promoted for the next season. Relegation would therefore be much easier to recover from.

The Championship would need expanded to twelve teams so that its bottom eight sides would also form a mini-league.

Below that would be a national league of the remaining eighteen teams playing home and away for 34 matches.

If we wanted to be truly radical then whoever is top at the split gets a Europa League place and the points are reset at nil for the second part of the season. This could result in someone outwith the Ugly Sisters having a chance at the title so expect it to be a non-starter. I like that as an idea. Clubs could try and build knowing it is likely any relegation would likely be for just a season.

[ACLeith]

The correct time to have a split (if there has to be one) is after the second round of fixtures, when everyone has played each team home and away for a total of 22 games. This provides a natural time to hold the winter break.

Then the top eight clubs can play each other home and away again for a further 14 matches and a total of 36 games. Two less than at present, which means fewer midweek fixtures after the break. The final placings will determine the title and European football.

The bottom four clubs would also play a mini-league of 14 games with the top four from the Championship, with the top four clubs getting promoted for the next season. Relegation would therefore be much easier to recover from.

The Championship would need expanded to twelve teams so that its bottom eight sides would also form a mini-league.

Below that would be a national league of the remaining eighteen teams playing home and away for 34 matches.

If we wanted to be truly radical then whoever is top at the split gets a Europa League place and the points are reset at nil for the second part of the season. This could result in someone outwith the Ugly Sisters having a chance at the title so expect it to be a non-starter.
What an interesting and radical solution. Loads of common sense so no chance of SPFL considering it!

[dalkeith stu]

This happens every yearbut it only becomes a problem when it affects the OF!! ***** them!!!

[Hibbyradge]

What an interesting and radical solution. Loads of common sense so no chance of SPFL considering it!

The SPFL could consider it until the cows came home, but there's not a chance the clubs would agree to it.

[jonny]

The correct time to have a split (if there has to be one) is after the second round of fixtures, when everyone has played each team home and away for a total of 22 games. This provides a natural time to hold the winter break.

Then the top eight clubs can play each other home and away again for a further 14 matches and a total of 36 games. Two less than at present, which means fewer midweek fixtures after the break. The final placings will determine the title and European football.

The bottom four clubs would also play a mini-league of 14 games with the top four from the Championship, with the top four clubs getting promoted for the next season. Relegation would therefore be much easier to recover from.

The Championship would need expanded to twelve teams so that its bottom eight sides would also form a mini-league.

Below that would be a national league of the remaining eighteen teams playing home and away for 34 matches.

If we wanted to be truly radical then whoever is top at the split gets a Europa League place and the points are reset at nil for the second part of the season. This could result in someone outwith the Ugly Sisters having a chance at the title so expect it to be a non-starter.

Some of this concept sounds pretty good but you'll then have 8 championship teams playing for relegation survival - chances are 2 go down?
That leaves a good chance about 4 teams who will be more or less safe before the split have half a season playing for practically nothing. What's the incentive to finish top of that group?
No chance of going up, no / very little chance of going down and will literally be going through the motions. Half a season is too long for that unless there was some sort of incentive for the top 2/3 of that group.

[The 90+2]

The splits good. Best teams play each other looking for Europe the league etc and the ***** sides battle relegation against each other. Who cares if the fixtures inconvenience some, some of the time? We finish top six play the best sides in good games or if we miss out play the 21s apart from hearts and play a big part in relegating they ****s.

[The 90+2]

What an interesting and radical solution. Loads of common sense so no chance of SPFL considering it!

Clubs would sell a lot less season tickets this way.

[Diclonius]

We should get 2 home and 3 away after the split - if the top six stays at it is, we've played the following:
Celtic: two home, one away
Rangers: one home, two away
Motherwell: one home, two away
Aberdeen: one home, two away
Livingston: two home, one away

Therefore we're going to have to play one of Rangers, Motherwell and Aberdeen away three times. I'll take Rangers at Ibrox as we've less chance of a win anyway and I'd be delighted not to see them a second time at ER.

[Hibbyradge]

Some of this concept sounds pretty good but you'll then have 8 championship teams playing for relegation survival - chances are 2 go down?
That leaves a good chance about 4 teams who will be more or less safe before the split have half a season playing for practically nothing. What's the incentive to finish top of that group?
No chance of going up, no / very little chance of going down and will literally be going through the motions. Half a season is too long for that unless there was some sort of incentive for the top 2/3 of that group.

Correct. Crowds for those clubs would fall, as would ST renewals.

Plus the loss of income from 1 less home game, fewer visits from the bigger teams and less TV money, would potentially bankrupt some clubs.

The split isn't perfect, but the alternatives are worse.

[hibbysam]

We should get 2 home and 3 away after the split - if the top six stays at it is, we've played the following:
Celtic: two home, one away
Rangers: one home, two away
Motherwell: one home, two away
Aberdeen: one home, two away
Livingston: two home, one away

Therefore we're going to have to play one of Rangers, Motherwell and Aberdeen away three times. I'll take Rangers at Ibrox as we've less chance of a win anyway and I'd be delighted not to see them a second time at ER.

Think it would be rangers as they will have played everyone at home twice, so they will effectively be ‘looking’ to find 2 teams to travel to ibrox a third time, we will be one of those.

[offshorehibby]

I like the split, it keeps a bit of excitement going. There are still teams fighting to get into the top 6 with St J and Killie still with an outside chance. After the split the fight for 3 and 4 is still going on and obviously the fight 11th and 12th still going on.

[JeMeSouviens]

A split after 3 rounds of fixtures is just wrong. The whole point of a league with home and away fixtures is everybody ends up having the same set of games. I can't believe it was ever proposed in the first place, let alone accepted. Then again it's Scottish football, so why wouldn't it? :rolleyes:

[Hibbyradge]

A split after 3 rounds of fixtures is just wrong. The whole point of a league with home and away fixtures is everybody ends up having the same set of games. I can't believe it was ever proposed in the first place, let alone accepted. Then again it's Scottish football, so why wouldn't it? :rolleyes:

Several European leagues have a split, some of which are a lot more complicated than ours.

Ireland's system is similar to ours, but they have added playoffs for the Europa place.

[JeMeSouviens]

Several European leagues have a split, some of which are a lot more complicated than ours.

Ireland's system is similar to ours, but they have added playoffs for the Europa place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_League_of_Ireland_Premier_Division

"The Premier Division consists of 10 teams. Each team plays each other four times for a total of 36 matches in the season." :dunno:

[JeMeSouviens]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_League_of_Ireland_Premier_Division

"The Premier Division consists of 10 teams. Each team plays each other four times for a total of 36 matches in the season." :dunno:

Ah, you meant Northern Ireland. Daft enough to copy ours it turns out. :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Ah, you meant Northern Ireland. Daft enough to copy ours it turns out. :greengrin

Ah, yes, I did mean Norn Iron.

Have a look at the Danish system. Then have a look at Belgian version.

It'll make you fall in love with our split all over again. :crazy:

[JeMeSouviens]

Anyway, NI is the only one I've heard of that has an asymmetric split like ours. The Belgians, Danes and so on all have even splits where the pre and post split fixtures are home and away. The Belgian system is truly mental btw, but not systematically unfair like ours.

[Hibbyradge]

Here you go. Flow charts required, ffs!

https://medium.com/@alexmarr14/five-european-leagues-that-do-the-split-much-differently-than-scotland-8ffab4d17a82

[JeMeSouviens]

The Belgian system in a simple (:greengrin) flowchart:

https://miro.medium.com/max/757/1*df_hzmMWy0ht89Y1k2CZWA.jpeg

[JeMeSouviens]

Here you go. Flow charts required, ffs!

https://medium.com/@alexmarr14/five-european-leagues-that-do-the-split-much-differently-than-scotland-8ffab4d17a82

Awesome! :greengrin

Fiendishly complex and crap for that reason but ultimately fair, so better than ours.

[Diclonius]

Looked a bit more into this, as things stand this is how it turns out:

Celtic: due 3 home, 2 away. Would ordinarily play all five teams away
Rangers: due 2 home, 3 away. Would ordinarily play all five teams at home
Motherwell: due 2 home, 3 away. Would ordinarily play Rangers and Livingston at home, Celtic, Aberdeen and Hibs away
Aberdeen: due 3 home, 2 away. Would ordinarily play Rangers, Motherwell and Livingston at home, Celtic and Hibs away
Livingston: due 3 home, 2 away. Would ordinarily play Rangers and Hibs at home, and Celtic, Motherwell and Aberdeen away
Hibs: due 2 home, 3 away. Would ordinarily play Rangers, Motherwell and Aberdeen at home, Celtic and Livingston away

This lineup should fix it:
Celtic: (H) Rangers, Aberdeen, Hibs, (A) Motherwell, Livingston
Rangers: (H) Motherwell, Hibs, (A) Celtic, Aberdeen, Livingston
Motherwell: (H) Celtic, Livingston, (A) Rangers, Aberdeen, Hibs
Aberdeen: (H) Rangers, Motherwell, Livingston, (A) Celtic, Hibs
Livingston: (H) Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, (A) Motherwell, Aberdeen
Hibs: (H) Motherwell, Aberdeen, (A) Celtic, Rangers, Livingston

Aberdeen's schedule is at it should be, we go to Glasgow twice, Livingston get an extra money spinning home OF tie, and Motherwell get a home game against Celtic instead of Rangers. So long as the positions stay the same and RG/LD don't insist on Rangers coming here, we're sorted. :aok:

[Daydreamer]

The home and away games will be the least of the SFA and SPFL worries if Rangers get through against Braga then draw with Hearts in the Cup. Because of the Scotland game or games the last midweek in March will mean that Rangers will either have 2 league games to play or one cup replay and one outstanding league game before the split. All ifs or buts but could happen. They will be preying Rangers lose to Braga.

[NAE NOOKIE]

16 Team top league with an 8/8 split after the first round of fixtures ... 44 games. It also means you have a fair balance of home and away fixtures.

If they could shoehorn in group stages for the league cup in the current structure they can bin that to accommodate the extra league fixtures in the new one, which would without a doubt provide better crowds than the LC group matches do.

In fact with the league cup you could wait until there are 16 non premiership teams left in the league cup and have the 16 top league clubs join at that stage .... and here's the radical bit .... the set of premiership league fixtures after the 16 from outwith the premiership have been sorted out can be played as a double header where the premiership clubs are not only playing for 3 points but also a place in the last 16 of the league cup in the same game ... the fixtures are chosen by computer so it would be the same as a random draw. :greengrin

2 automatic relegation spots with the 14th and 13th clubs in a home and away playoff to determine who takes on 3rd in the championship in a one off game at a neutral venue for the 3rd promotion / relegation spot.

[Hibbyradge]

16 Team top league with an 8/8 split after the first round of fixtures ... 44 games. It also means you have a fair balance of home and away fixtures.

If they could shoehorn in group stages for the league cup in the current structure they can bin that to accommodate the extra league fixtures in the new one, which would without a doubt provide better crowds than the LC group matches do.

In fact with the league cup you could wait until there are 16 teams left in the league cup and have the 16 top league clubs join at that stage .... and here's the radical bit .... the set of premiership league fixtures after the 16 from outwith the premiership have been sorted out can be played as a double header where the premiership clubs are not only playing for 3 points but also a place in the last 16 of the league cup in the same game ... the fixtures are chosen by computer so it would be the same as a random draw. :greengrin

2 automatic relegation spots with the 14th and 13th clubs in a home and away playoff to determine who takes on 3rd in the championship in a one off game at a neutral venue for the 3rd promotion / relegation spot.

We can hardly accommodate 38 games in a season.

I don't see how we could schedule another 6.

[NAE NOOKIE]

We can hardly accommodate 38 games in a season.

I don't see how we could schedule another 6.

I kinda thought my post directly addressed that problem. With my league cup idea the most league cup games any premiership club would play is 4 including the final ... Hibs played 7 this season, it would have been 8 had we reached the final.

Do away with our daft winter break which in a country like Scotland makes absolutely no sense and that will free up a whole load of dates. It can be done and it would make our game fairer with each team playing home and away with no daft pre split disparity.

[Hibbyradge]

I kinda thought my post directly addressed that problem. With my league cup idea the most league cup games any premiership club would play is 4 including the final ... Hibs played 7 this season, it would have been 8 had we reached the final.

Do away with our daft winter break which in a country like Scotland makes absolutely no sense and that will free up a whole load of dates. It can be done and it would make our game fairer with each team playing home and away with no daft pre split disparity.

To be honest, I didn't quite understand your league cup suggestion. 😁

Can you explain the double header bit again? (I will say that I doubt any club would agree to playing for league points and cup progression at the same time, if that's what it would mean.)

[147lothian]

Who is St Johnstone's game in hand against?

[NAE NOOKIE]

To be honest, I didn't quite understand your league cup suggestion. 😁

Can you explain the double header bit again? (I will say that I doubt any club would agree to playing for league points and cup progression at the same time, if that's what it would mean.)

That's exactly what it would mean ... Yes it sounds mental, but it wouldn't half make for an interesting game :greengrin

[LustForLeith]

I always wish they’d done what I believe at one point they wanted to do with the split where after the split every team starts again on zero points. You could finish sixth at the split, win all your games and win the league. Likewise you could finish seventh, lose all your games and get relegated.

It would be a laugh if nothing else

[Hibbyradge]

That's exactly what it would mean ... Yes it sounds mental, but it wouldn't half make for an interesting game :greengrin

Not half.

Imagine playing hearts in the league and cup in the same game. :paranoid:

[Crazyhorse]

Anyway, NI is the only one I've heard of that has an asymmetric split like ours. The Belgians, Danes and so on all have even splits where the pre and post split fixtures are home and away. The Belgian system is truly mental btw, but not systematically unfair like ours.

I’m a big fan of the Belgian system. It has spread the league titles around quite well and restored the conveyor belt of fantastic talent over the past decade.
But on reflection who wants that let’s stick to the Scottish system and ensure total mediocrity for another century.

[Irish-Hibee]

I actually quite like the split. Keeps things interesting

Exactly - Great having all the relegation candidates playing each other and the European place challengers playing each other. Makes every game interesting.

[jgl07]

Think it would be rangers as they will have played everyone at home twice, so they will effectively be ‘looking’ to find 2 teams to travel to ibrox a third time, we will be one of those.
So that will mean have no post split home game against Rangers, Celtic or Hearts. That will knock a sizeable hole in Hibs finances.

Poor crowd for Motherwell and a mediocre one for Aberdeen!