Employment question, can an employer dock holidays?

[Moulin Yarns]

Hi folks, a question about contracts.

My wife is employed to work 40 hours per week, but due to the type of business (tourist related) she generally works less than this in winter and more than 40 hours in the summer.

All managers (3) got an email saying that they expected those on 40 hour contracts to work a minimum of 40 hours per week and any shortfall would be deducted from holidays (28 days per annum). At the same time the email said there was no mechanism to accrue any hours over 40 hours worked per week.

Firstly, is this legal?

Also, the way it is written it is unclear if this is worked out weekly, monthly or annually.


I hope that makes sense.

Thanks in advance for any advice.

[bigwheel]

On the surface it seems legally fine
A)please work your full hours, or we will deduct them from your holidays
B) if you work more, we have no way of recompensing that

Both are fair statements...

I guess the real issue is the expected practice of more hours at certain times in the year - if that’s the case it seems unfair..and could warrant a challenge .

[Killiehibbie]

When you take a weeks holiday you should be paid an average of your previous 13 weekly hours, if you regularly exceed your contracted hours.
Deducting hours or days has got to be illegal?
Lots of companies are at it, one of the reasons I left my last job was because they refused to give me the legal minimum holiday entitlement.

[Moulin Yarns]

When you take a weeks holiday you should be paid an average of your previous 13 weekly hours.
Deducting hours or days has got to be illegal?
Lots of companies are at it, one of the reasons I left my last job was because they refused to give me the legal minimum holiday entitlement.

That's why I think it may be illegal. Normal shop opening hours in winter are 10 to 5. In summer they are 10 to 5:30, and at the busiest time 10 to 6, but my wife is manager and is in the shop working at 9:30 and stays open later when there are customers, the problem is how you record the hours worked in retail compared to opening hours.

[ronaldo7]

If she's not on an annual hours contract, and she's willing to work 40 hours per week, they cannot take it off her holidays. She's contracted for those holidays when it's suitable to both parties to take them.

She should ask about flexible working to protect her holidays, and at least she has reached out to the company to get some conclusion to the issue.

Annual hours contracts may be the way to go, if she's willing to work more than 40 hours at peak times.

[Peevemor]

That's why I think it may be illegal. Normal shop opening hours in winter are 10 to 5. In summer they are 10 to 5:30, and at the busiest time 10 to 6, but my wife is manager and is in the shop working at 9:30 and stays open later when there are customers, the problem is how you record the hours worked in retail compared to opening hours.

You're wife should inform her employer that without the elements of trust and give/take, she'll accept the conditions with a view to working to rule, even if that means emptying a full shop bang on closing time during the busy period and sitting on her arse doing nothing in the off season.

[Killiehibbie]

That's why I think it may be illegal. Normal shop opening hours in winter are 10 to 5. In summer they are 10 to 5:30, and at the busiest time 10 to 6, but my wife is manager and is in the shop working at 9:30 and stays open later when there are customers, the problem is how you record the hours worked in retail compared to opening hours.
If the bosses don't take her word for it or have a clocking in device then it's hard to prove what time you finished. We all moan about the places that shut the door at 6 but if they won't pay the staff.

[danhibees1875]

Are you saying that due to the opening times she can't physically work the 40 hours a week and so would have to lose holiday?

As already said, I think an email explaining the situation and how it wouldn't work in practice would be a good starting point. There's maybe a good chance that someone has just followed through with an idea without thinking it through and it can be rectified with a bit of common sense.

[Onceinawhile]

You're wife should inform her employer that without the elements of trust and give/take, she'll accept the conditions with a view to working to rule, even if that means emptying a full shop bang on closing time during the busy period and sitting on her arse doing nothing in the off season.

Absolutely. If it's to be a 40hr week, with nothing granted for working overtime (not even TOIL for the winter months) then the shop shuts bang on time every day during the summer.

A few weeks of takings being substantially down and I'm sure the owners will be willing to listen.

[Peevemor]

Are you saying that due to the opening times she can't physically work the 40 hours a week and so would have to lose holiday?

As already said, I think an email explaining the situation and how it wouldn't work in practice would be a good starting point. There's maybe a good chance that someone has just followed through with an idea without thinking it through and it can be rectified with a bit of common sense.


Absolutely. If it's to be a 40hr week, with nothing granted for working overtime (not even TOIL for the winter months) then the shop shuts bang on time every day during the summer.

A few weeks of takings being substantially down and I'm sure the owners will be willing to listen.

It looks to me that either the employer is being an arse or there have been employees that have been taking more than giving.

[Killiehibbie]

Another employment question.

Is there any reason why an apprentice, earning more than £7500, isn't auto-enrolled into company pension scheme?

[WeeRussell]

Another employment question.

Is there any reason why an apprentice, earning more than £7500, isn't auto-enrolled into company pension scheme?

Sounds like they may just fall shy of the earnings threshold to qualify for enrolment.

[Killiehibbie]

Sounds like they may just fall shy of the earnings threshold to qualify for enrolment.

He's on £11000 and my reading of the rules was any employee earning over £7500 qualified.

[WeeRussell]

He's on £11000 and my reading of the rules was any employee earning over £7500 qualified.

Hmm.. apprentice suggests quite young? Think you have to be over 22

[Killiehibbie]

Hmm.. apprentice suggests quite young? Think you have to be over 22

If you’re under the age of 22, you won’t be automatically enrolled into your employer’s workplace pension scheme along with your older colleagues.But provided you earn £6,136 or more a year (tax year 2019-20), you have the right to opt in to the scheme.


The site I first read didn't mention any age restrictions for auto-enrolment. When he asked about pension his management told him apprentices don't qualify.

[WeeRussell]

If you’re under the age of 22, you won’t be automatically enrolled into your employer’s workplace pension scheme along with your older colleagues.But provided you earn £6,136 or more a year (tax year 2019-20), you have the right to opt in to the scheme.


The site I first read didn't mention any age restrictions for auto-enrolment. When he asked about pension his management told him apprentices don't qualify.

I see. If nothing else it's refreshing to hear of a young man actively seeking to be enrolled. When I was that age I had no idea about any of it and only ended up paying larger contributions due to being involved in financial services.

It really does add-up, and if you're as bad as me with money, a great way to ensure you are saving decent amounts however else you squander your income!