Ticket sales more important in Scotland than any other top league in Europe

[jacomo]

I found this report interesting:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51177558

Scottish clubs more reliant on matchday attendance than any other top league in Europe.

There are probably two sides to this story:

1) Scottish clubs are well supported per head of population and
2) Other sources of revenue are quite poor

Unfortunately, more sensible kick off times seem unlikely, as the SPFL shuffles fixtures to try and increase value of broadcasting rights etc.

[Lago]

I think Scottish clubs are well supported for a nation of 5 million, but of course that reliance on ticket sales could be a problem if interest in the game diminished The product unfortunately is never going to attract the wealthy individuals or corporations that currently pour money into football down South.

[jonny]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/42696675

Best in Europe as per head of population according to this BBC article.
Shows there is still a big appetite for the game here across the country.

[Bishop Hibee]

Those marketing Scottish football need to take a good look at themselves. My sister-in law’s dad comes over from Catalunya regularly to see his grandchildren He often comes to Easter Road and really enjoys it (apart from the weather) We’re quick to criticise but we have a lot of exciting games and passionate fans. I’ve got tickets to see Hibs for groundhoppers who love coming to experience Scottish games in the raw. The BBC should be paying a lot more for the highlights package for sure.

[hibbysam]

Hence why this ‘twenty’s plenty’ campaign isn’t as straight forward as everyone thinks, and takes far more thought behind it. We need better people in charge of our game getting far better deals for us. As it stands, lowering ticket prices will just lower revenues and lower the quality, which in turn makes it even harder to attract sponsors and commercial deals, while driving people away as the standard gets worse.

[jgl07]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/sport/amp/football/42696675

Best in Europe as per head of population according to this BBC article.
Shows there is still a big appetite for the game here across the country.

Take away Rangers and Celtic and it doesn't look too good.

Hibs and Hearts average crowds are poor compared to clubs in similar sized cities in England. See, for example, Sheffield United and Sheffield Wednesday. That's steering away from Manchester City and United plus Liverpool and Everton.

[Sioux]

Take away Rangers and Celtic and it doesn't look too good.

Hibs and Hearts average crowds are poor compared to clubs in similar sized cities in England. See, for example, Sheffield United and Sheffield Wednesday. That's steering away from Manchester City and United plus Liverpool and Everton.

Exactly. Take Hibs, Aberdeen & hertz out of the equation and average crowds are less than 5,000. But the most important stat is that the clubs rely on the fans for their revenue. It’s all very well saying the clubs should get money sponsorship. But when that sponsorship doesn’t exist, and there is no evidence that companies are queuing up to provide it, howling at the moon (not you) won’t change that fact.

[ABZHFC]

Hence why this ‘twenty’s plenty’ campaign isn’t as straight forward as everyone thinks, and takes far more thought behind it. We need better people in charge of our game getting far better deals for us. As it stands, lowering ticket prices will just lower revenues and lower the quality, which in turn makes it even harder to attract sponsors and commercial deals, while driving people away as the standard gets worse.

On the flip side, if we had a more European streak about us, we’d simply organise boycotts and force the clubs to drop the prices. But we let them take us for a ride, all to play pointless catch-up with two teams we will probably never catch

[hibbysam]

On the flip side, if we had a more European streak about us, we’d simply organise boycotts and force the clubs to drop the prices. But we let them take us for a ride, all to play pointless catch-up with two teams we will probably never catch

So you’d like us to drop prices, to drop revenue, to reduce quality, to lose European places/revenue/tv deals, to drive fans away who don’t want to watch even worse football... If the clubs were making millions of pounds of profit then I’d say fair enough, as it is, they aren’t, therefore cutting prices would just be spiting ourselves.

[neil7908]

I found it extremely disappointing in the article that Doncaster wasn't pressed on the complete absence of income from TV deals.

We're watching a poorer product and paying more for it than similar countries in Europe as he and his pals couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

However, individual clubs need to take their share of the blame. How we've ended up without a sponsor is unbelievable. Again, fans expected to pay more and more whilst those on big salaries fail to market out game properly.

Scottish football will keep falling further and further behind unless things change.

[weecounty hibby]

I found it extremely disappointing in the article that Doncaster wasn't pressed on the complete absence of income from TV deals.

We're watching a poorer product and paying more for it than similar countries in Europe as he and his pals couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery.

However, individual clubs need to take their share of the blame. How we've ended up without a sponsor is unbelievable. Again, fans expected to pay more and more whilst those on big salaries fail to market out game properly.

Scottish football will keep falling further and further behind unless things change.
Doncaster and others before him believe that Scottish football begins and ends with the bigot twins in Glasgow. Until those who run the game realise that actually without the other clubs Scottish football would have no product the better. Everything is geared around them. KO times at every other club get changed so that the OF kid on, armchair, never been to see them but still a fan, "supporters" get to see them every week is ****ing nauseating. Everyone else is inconvenienced to the benefit of them. We even have clubs now giving them 75% of their home stadium as there is no cash coming in from TV and the authorities have allowed them to be in a position where the likes of St Johnstone will be lucky to beat them one time out of fifty so why would their fans turn up. Add to that the sectarian singing, downright bigotry and anti social behaviour that follows the OF about no wonder folk won't go to watch that. I detest the OF, a blight in Scottish society never mind just Scottish football!!

[Itsnoteasy]

Take away Rangers and Celtic and it doesn't look too good.

Hibs and Hearts average crowds are poor compared to clubs in similar sized cities in England. See, for example, Sheffield United and Sheffield Wednesday. That's steering away from Manchester City and United plus Liverpool and Everton.

According to Wikipedia 2017 both Sheffield teams averaged 22000. I picked this year as both weren't flying high. They also have a population approx 250000 larger than Edinburgh. So there can't be as big a gap as what you claim.

[jgl07]

Doncaster and others before him believe that Scottish football begins and ends with the bigot twins in Glasgow. Until those who run the game realise that actually without the other clubs Scottish football would have no product the better. Everything is geared around them. KO times at every other club get changed so that the OF kid on, armchair, never been to see them but still a fan, "supporters" get to see them every week is ****ing nauseating. Everyone else is inconvenienced to the benefit of them. We even have clubs now giving them 75% of their home stadium as there is no cash coming in from TV and the authorities have allowed them to be in a position where the likes of St Johnstone will be lucky to beat them one time out of fifty so why would their fans turn up. Add to that the sectarian singing, downright bigotry and anti social behaviour that follows the OF about no wonder folk won't go to watch that. I detest the OF, a blight in Scottish society never mind just Scottish football!!

Absolutely correct.

The TV deal is ostensibly fair limiting the number of home games that can be screened live for each club. What it means is that ALL Celtic and Sevco away matches are screened and very few (OF matches aside) home matches for either of the bigot brothers are shown.

That means that other supporters have to put up with matches at silly times to accommodate this approach yet their clubs will get far less money out of this arrangement.

The TV (Sky, BT, Setanta, etc) companies showed next to no interest in screening anything outside of the Premiership until Rangers went bust. They they rediscovered the joys of the lower leagues to show Sevco matches. Since the zombies were promoted to the Premiership, they seem to have lost interest in the lower orders. Fair play to the BBC in this area for covering matches on Alba and the Scotland channel.

The other clubs are to blame for not tearing up the rulebook during Sevco's spell in the lower orders when the OF veto could not have been used.

[Hermit Crab]

Ticket prices should be capped in the SPL at £20 and £10 and ST prices adjusted accordingly, in 5 years time we're going to be paying over £40 for a game v Hearts for example, maybe even more. Lower, more family friendly pricing is whats needed and will get more through the gates. Normal fans on basic income are getting priced out the game now.

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Scottish clubs need to diversify revenue streams. Very little has changed in 25/30 years.

Match day ticket sales, limited merchandise, small local business sponsorship and shocking TV revenues in comparison to say Norway, Denmark or Greece means that your average Scottish top flight club struggles to grow and developed in any modern way shape or from.

For gods sakes, there are clubs in darkest Romania that would shame our sides.

[jgl07]

According to Wikipedia 2017 both Sheffield teams averaged 22000. I picked this year as both weren't flying high. They also have a population approx 250000 larger than Edinburgh. So there can't be as big a gap as what you claim.

You picked a time when Wednesday had been struggling for years and Sheffield United were in the third tier. This season it is around 31,000 for United and 26,000 for Wednesday.

Ok how about Liverpool (population 491,500) and Manchester (530,500) as compared to Edinburgh (489,000)?

[Chorley Hibee]

According to Wikipedia 2017 both Sheffield teams averaged 22000. I picked this year as both weren't flying high. They also have a population approx 250000 larger than Edinburgh. So there can't be as big a gap as what you claim.

Sheffield doesn't have 250,000 more than Edinburgh.

[superfurryhibby]

According to Wikipedia 2017 both Sheffield teams averaged 22000. I picked this year as both weren't flying high. They also have a population approx 250000 larger than Edinburgh. So there can't be as big a gap as what you claim.

Not accurate. Edinburgh is estimated to have c 530,00 people, Sheffield around 630,000. Quite a significant difference. Crowds in our city are comparatively low.

[Itsnoteasy]

Not accurate. Edinburgh is estimated to have c 530,00 people, Sheffield around 630,000. Quite a significant difference. Crowds in our city are comparatively low.

I did say according to Wiki. I looked up record attendances in British football for domestic league & cup games & give or take a place Hibs were 18th, not including Wembley or Hampden. That's pretty impressive. But back then "It was the best brand of football the worlds ever seen"

Maybe it has everything to do with the dross that Edinburgh fans watch, week in, week out.

[ABZHFC]

So you’d like us to drop prices, to drop revenue, to reduce quality, to lose European places/revenue/tv deals, to drive fans away who don’t want to watch even worse football... If the clubs were making millions of pounds of profit then I’d say fair enough, as it is, they aren’t, therefore cutting prices would just be spiting ourselves.

My point wasn't 'only Hibs should do it', my point was all fans should unite and boycott until they lower the prices. We are the lifeblood of clubs (and not just in some corny, romanticised sense, quite literally) and if we pulled the plug, they'd soon listen. Sadly, like I say, so many fans in Scotland are short-termist and, to an extent, selfish, and fail to see the bigger picture completely

[lord bunberry]

Our game is chronically under promoted due to our tv deals coming from the same companies that cover the game in England. There should be legislation brought in to address this imbalance. We live in a country that lives and breathes football but we suffer from our national broadcasters paying obscene amounts to one league and buttons to ours.

[hibbysam]

My point wasn't 'only Hibs should do it', my point was all fans should unite and boycott until they lower the prices. We are the lifeblood of clubs (and not just in some corny, romanticised sense, quite literally) and if we pulled the plug, they'd soon listen. Sadly, like I say, so many fans in Scotland are short-termist and, to an extent, selfish, and fail to see the bigger picture completely

I’m not just talking hibs either, you lower ticket prices, the product gets so much worse across the whole league, which in turn means the tv deals and sponsorship deals get even worse than they are now, and in the end punters are driven away even more than they are already. I fail to see the bigger picture of destroying the quality of our game over the next 5/10 years also.

We need more from our game before we can lower ticket prices, to get more punters through the door, ways of keeping revenues up while lowering prices, the fact that ticket prices make up the majority of our clubs incomes says we can’t do that just now without prejudicing what we currently have and taking us back to near semi pro levels.

There’s no doubt we can get better commercial deals, better tv deals, innovation, much more than just ‘lower the ticket prices’ which has been proven time and time again not to get new punters through the door.

[ABZHFC]

I’m not just talking hibs either, you lower ticket prices, the product gets so much worse across the whole league, which in turn means the tv deals and sponsorship deals get even worse than they are now, and in the end punters are driven away even more than they are already. I fail to see the bigger picture of destroying the quality of our game over the next 5/10 years also.

We need more from our game before we can lower ticket prices, to get more punters through the door, ways of keeping revenues up while lowering prices, the fact that ticket prices make up the majority of our clubs incomes says we can’t do that just now without prejudicing what we currently have and taking us back to near semi pro levels.

There’s no doubt we can get better commercial deals, better tv deals, innovation, much more than just ‘lower the ticket prices’ which has been proven time and time again not to get new punters through the door.

All very good, enjoy paying £38 for a Tynecastle ticket next season

[hibbysam]

All very good, enjoy paying £38 for a Tynecastle ticket next season

My point exactly, no one has put a proposal in front of me which backs up why tickets should be £20 and how we propose to make a success of this. Put that point to me and I’ll get right behind it. I’m all for saving myself some dosh. Throw a random statement out there with no facts or figures to back up having the same quality/better quality than we do at the moment and I’ll quite rightly doubt it and agree with the status quo.

[ABZHFC]

My point exactly, no one has put a proposal in front of me which backs up why tickets should be £20 and how we propose to make a success of this. Put that point to me and I’ll get right behind it. I’m all for saving myself some dosh. Throw a random statement out there with no facts or figures to back up having the same quality/better quality than we do at the moment and I’ll quite rightly doubt it and agree with the status quo.

Tickets should be £20 because the game of football was created by the working classes and we are increasingly straying away from that. And if you want to know where we could save money, look at the large bonuses each director takes for themselves each year. Maybe if we stopped running clubs like they were Wall Street businesses, and started running them like community assets (as it always used to be), then that would go some way?

You may say I'm a dreamer

[hhibs]

Absolutely correct.

The TV deal is ostensibly fair limiting the number of home games that can be screened live for each club. What it means is that ALL Celtic and Sevco away matches are screened and very few (OF matches aside) home matches for either of the bigot brothers are shown.

That means that other supporters have to put up with matches at silly times to accommodate this approach yet their clubs will get far less money out of this arrangement.

The TV (Sky, BT, Setanta, etc) companies showed next to no interest in screening anything outside of the Premiership until Rangers went bust. They they rediscovered the joys of the lower leagues to show Sevco matches. Since the zombies were promoted to the Premiership, they seem to have lost interest in the lower orders. Fair play to the BBC in this area for covering matches on Alba and the Scotland channel.

The other clubs are to blame for not tearing up the rulebook during Sevco's spell in the lower orders when the OF veto could not have been used.


Oh I think we should place the blame squarly where it belongs........ S.Milne,Aberdeens then Chairman, dick and a hypocrite

[hibbysam]

Tickets should be £20 because the game of football was created by the working classes and we are increasingly straying away from that. And if you want to know where we could save money, look at the large bonuses each director takes for themselves each year. Maybe if we stopped running clubs like they were Wall Street businesses, and started running them like community assets (as it always used to be), then that would go some way?

You may say I'm a dreamer

If that’s the case then why stop at £20? Football clubs have been businesses for decades now, if you want the Scottish game to stray away from that and go in its own direction, fair enough, absolutely heehaw chance of getting anyone to pay £20 to watch that product, though.

Do I think there are certain games (like tomorrow) where the club gets pricing wrong, absolutely. Do I want to see ticket prices fall to the detriment of the product that I’m paying to watch? Absolutely not.

Fair enough, you’ve got your view which your entitled to, but without serious investment in our game with the correct individuals marketing it then I’m content with paying what I do.

[hhibs]

Not accurate. Edinburgh is estimated to have c 530,00 people, Sheffield around 630,000. Quite a significant difference. Crowds in our city are comparatively low.



Not really their catchment area is considerably higher

.

[hibbysam]

Oh I think we should place the blame squarly where it belongs........ S.Milne,Aberdeens then Chairman, dick and a hypocrite

Your heads up your backend if you think Stewart Milne was the only chairman to vote with the Sellick. Plenty clubs happy to play along to the party tune as the old firm fill their coffers year on year. Couldn’t even tell you if it was ever put to a vote to amend since the appetite for it was so low, and I can’t find results online.

[jgl07]

Not really their catchment area is considerably higher

.
And there are far more clubs nearby.

Edinburgh have Edinburgh City and Livingston who attract around 1,500 between them if they are lucky.

Sheffield have Rotherham, Barnsley, Doncaster, not to mention Leeds United and the Manchester clubs within 35 miles.

[monktonharp]

Take away Rangers and Celtic and it doesn't look too good.

Hibs and Hearts average crowds are poor compared to clubs in similar sized cities in England. See, for example, Sheffield United and Sheffield Wednesday. That's steering away from Manchester City and United plus Liverpool and Everton.I have no figures, bur surely South Yorkshire has a population on a par with Scotland? hence the relatively larger(although not massively) attendances if if they are not winning regularly?

[hhibs]

Your heads up your backend if you think Stewart Milne was the only chairman to vote with the Sellick. Plenty clubs happy to play along to the party tune as the old firm fill their coffers year on year. Couldn’t even tell you if it was ever put to a vote to amend since the appetite for it was so low, and I can’t find results online.


I believe it was reported that the vote from the members of the SPL was 9. to 2 ,the two being celtic and aberdeen to change the crucial voting structure in the league which remains decision must have 11 votes to change rules .

Hope you can remove your head from from your backend by any means though,the echo must be mighty loud.

[monktonharp]

Hence why this ‘twenty’s plenty’ campaign isn’t as straight forward as everyone thinks, and takes far more thought behind it. We need better people in charge of our game getting far better deals for us. As it stands, lowering ticket prices will just lower revenues and lower the quality, which in turn makes it even harder to attract sponsors and commercial deals, while driving people away as the standard gets worse.point taken, but

there are circumstances that should initially be addressed re-attendances. Lots will not be able to afford tonight's game .It's a replay. why not drop the price? the first match, was a Sunday. it was on tv. we had a great support but the ground should have been filled to the brim. the price was too high, and the home club left an end virtually empty. these are all points that need addressed by the clubs and the SFA. let's big up our game, whenever possible, and this fixture is a case in point!

[monktonharp]

My point exactly, no one has put a proposal in front of me which backs up why tickets should be £20 and how we propose to make a success of this. Put that point to me and I’ll get right behind it. I’m all for saving myself some dosh. Throw a random statement out there with no facts or figures to back up having the same quality/better quality than we do at the moment and I’ll quite rightly doubt it and agree with the status quo.I think he is reffering to the high price mainly for a derby game. nevertheless, I am happy to pay more for a game like that when we all know that it is a supercharged event. still think 38quid is a bit much though!. but, as for getting more bodies in, cut yer cloth to suit the situation. that can be a start to getting fans on a regular basis.

[monktonharp]

There’s no doubt we can get better commercial deals, better tv deals, innovation, much more than just ‘lower the ticket prices’ which has been proven time and time again not to get new punters through the door.cant really make my mind up on this, but I do feel for fans that Want to be at games but cant afford to at times. I am surprised that our new owner in particular, given his background , has not made much movement on innovative moves for income at least for our club. maybe he needs to sit down with people like the new Aberdeen gadgie, etc?

[judas]

I found this report interesting:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/51177558

Scottish clubs more reliant on matchday attendance than any other top league in Europe.

There are probably two sides to this story:

1) Scottish clubs are well supported per head of population and
2) Other sources of revenue are quite poor

Unfortunately, more sensible kick off times seem unlikely, as the SPFL shuffles fixtures to try and increase value of broadcasting rights etc.

The article is a reassuring reminder that, per head of population, support for our clubs is outstanding.

The fans are doing their bit, the light must surely be shone on our footballing authorities for failing dismally to find appropriate financial support for our wonderful game

Austria, Denmark, Switzerland etc all get more TV Money for their leagues and you will be hard pressed to find more than 2-3 clubs in all 3 of those leagues who match Hibs or Hearts for attendances

I think the spark our league needs is a non OF club winning the league. Sadly that seems something of a fantasy right now.

[hibbysam]

point taken, but

there are circumstances that should initially be addressed re-attendances. Lots will not be able to afford tonight's game .It's a replay. why not drop the price? the first match, was a Sunday. it was on tv. we had a great support but the ground should have been filled to the brim. the price was too high, and the home club left an end virtually empty. these are all points that need addressed by the clubs and the SFA. let's big up our game, whenever possible, and this fixture is a case in point!

Tonight’s game I totally agree with FWIW, and think I made this point on another thread, it’s one of the rare occasions that lowering the price would have a meaningful impact on crowd size.

[hibbysam]

cant really make my mind up on this, but I do feel for fans that Want to be at games but cant afford to at times. I am surprised that our new owner in particular, given his background , has not made much movement on innovative moves for income at least for our club. maybe he needs to sit down with people like the new Aberdeen gadgie, etc?

100%. I’m not against lowering prices in the main, just not to the further detriment of the game, therefore we need to address the income side of it first, firstly as a league and country as a whole through our league and cups sponsorships and tv deals, and secondly as a club. Once revenues are raised elsewhere, then ticket prices should be lowered thus improving the overall product and enticing people through the door, as simply lowering the price by £5 is not going to encourage thousands more to attend regularly.

[hibbysam]

I believe it was reported that the vote from the members of the SPL was 9. to 2 ,the two being celtic and aberdeen to change the crucial voting structure in the league which remains decision must have 11 votes to change rules .

Hope you can remove your head from from your backend by any means though,the echo must be mighty loud.

There was no vote in 2012 on it, Milne did indeed advise he was against changing it at that point, however it is a certainty that Celtic would hold all the weight throughout the league and every single other club would fold in regards to it. The clubs have never voted against the old firm en mass, absolutely no reason to see that change as they bring so much money to the rest of the sides.