Hamilton playoff - Would you change outcome?

[Since452]

So, we play Hamilton tonight and it's got me thinking about that depressing playoff 2nd leg six years ago. If you knew then what you know now, would you change the outcome meaning we stayed up?

For me it's a resounding NO. As gutting as that result was it changed our club for the better without us realising it.

Butcher and Malpass emptied
Stubbs, Doolan and Taff brought in
Deadwood gone meaning complete fresh slate
Gray, Malonga, Allan, McGinn etc brought in
Ibrox wins
Derby wins
Cup finals
Scottish cup win
Almost defending our trophy
Lennon/Europe etc

Yes there was some low moments after relegation but I wouldn't swap it for a second. I actually shudder to think what staying up would have done...

Thoughts?

[Sir David Gray]

100% would change it.

All these other things could have happened regardless since it came at the start of Leeann Dempster's tenure so I'm confident she would have made the changes required even if we had stayed up.

[hibbydog]

Ach, difficult to tell.

We’ve had a great time over the last few years, and the playoff defeat certainly sparked a chain of events.

I guess I wouldn’t change it. I can remember surviving the Airdrie playoff in the mid nineties only to get relegated a few years later.

So, nah, terrible day but wouldn’t change it !!

[matty_f]

So, we play Hamilton tonight and it's got me thinking about that depressing playoff 2nd leg six years ago. If you knew then what you know now, would you change the outcome meaning we stayed up?

For me it's a resounding NO. As gutting as that result was it changed our club for the better without us realising it.

Butcher and Malpass emptied
Stubbs, Doolan and Taff brought in
Deadwood gone meaning complete fresh slate
Gray, Malonga, Allan, McGinn etc brought in
Ibrox wins
Derby wins
Cup finals
Scottish cup win
Almost defending our trophy
Lennon/Europe etc

Yes there was some low moments after relegation but I wouldn't swap it for a second. I actually shudder to think what staying up would have done...

Thoughts?

No, wouldn't change it. It is what it is, life's too short for regrets and it did allow for a significant rebuild that may or may not have happened anyway.

We also had some great moments in the Championship - getting the better of Hearts and Rangers regularly, 2 cup finals and the most special cup win ever.

Nobody wanted relegation, but what happened after has been great fun, in the main.

[Jones28]

It was good in the long run, but hindsight is a great thing.

[Just_Jimmy]

Nope. Since then it's been the most fun I've had as a Hibs supporter. I even loved expecting to win every week in the league.

Back to playing and underachievering for 3rd and 4th is just meh...



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[Dashing Bob S]

The last six years has been the best six I’ve had as a Hibs fan. Irrespective of all the other things losing our top flight status brought home that a club of our size should never be out the top six and really should be top four. We had a huge reality check as a club and have benefited greatly from it.

I doubt we’d have won the cup had we not been relegated. It was such a monkey on our back that hoodoo had to be broken in exceptional circumstances. If we were just a strong top half of the SPL side in that final we’d have blown it.

[truehibernian]

Only thing I would change is MAC not to celebrate in front if the Hibs fans :boo hoo:big Hibs fan still. Lovely lad too.

It was the perfect storm that turned into the perfect event (rebirth of the club as we know and want it and the Scottish Cup victory) :agree::aok:

[heidtheba]

Nope.
It led the way to what happened two years later.
There's a thing in Buddhism about seeming misfortune/fortune not turning out the way you'd expect it.
When I see this clip I think of things like that relegation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2L1-TgfKb4

[Sir David Gray]

Genuine question to those saying they wouldn't change things because of what happened over the next 2-3 years, why would that not have happened if we had managed to stay up in 2014?

I don't really follow that logic.

[heidtheba]

Genuine question to those saying they wouldn't change things because of what happened over the next 2-3 years, why would that not have happened if we had managed to stay up in 2014?

I don't really follow that logic.

I tend to think we'd have possibly kept Butcher, or there wouldn't have been the seismic changes that Stubbs managed. Hibs had no confidence after that game and I think that a regrouping year in the Championship (and one of the best funded/viewed championships due to Hearts and The Rangers being down with us) meant we got a bit of a kick so that the team Stubbs put together could go on and beat teams in the league above us during that cup run.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Genuine question to those saying they wouldn't change things because of what happened over the next 2-3 years, why would that not have happened if we had managed to stay up in 2014?

I don't really follow that logic.

If it had been that Rangers side in the 2016 final with us as a top flight side, the unknown quantity/fear factor in them would've made us **** the bed and lose 2 or 3-0. I'm very confident of that.

[Sir David Gray]

I tend to think we'd have possibly kept Butcher, or there wouldn't have been the seismic changes that Stubbs managed. Hibs had no confidence after that game and I think that a regrouping year in the Championship (and one of the best funded/viewed championships due to Hearts and The Rangers being down with us) meant we got a bit of a kick so that the team Stubbs put together could go on and beat teams in the league above us during that cup run.

Neither of us know what would have happened with Butcher. I accept that relegation made the decision to sack him a lot easier however I do think Leeann Dempster still had enough about her to have figured out that a change was required. I'm fairly certain a change would have happened even if we had stayed up.


If it had been that Rangers side in the 2016 final with us as a top flight side, the unknown quantity/fear factor in them would've made us **** the bed and lose 2 or 3-0. I'm very confident of that.

Fair enough I can't possibly argue or agree with that as neither of us can go back in time. I just don't see why relegation and us winning the cup and getting a general feelgood factor back under Stubbs need to be seen as only being possible to happen together.

[Danderhall Hibs]

SDG - you can’t mess with the timespace continuum.

[ABZHFC]

Genuine question to those saying they wouldn't change things because of what happened over the next 2-3 years, why would that not have happened if we had managed to stay up in 2014?

I don't really follow that logic.

Need the lows to really appreciate the highs, we went from one of our lowest moments to one of our finest in less than two seasons, not the same had we survived

[Sir David Gray]

Need the lows to really appreciate the highs, we went from one of our lowest moments to one of our finest in less than two seasons, not the same had we survived

Winning the Scottish Cup for the first time in 114 years wouldn't have been the same if we hadn't been relegated?

[The 90+2]

No chance.

[CathroMustStay]

I would not change a thing.

Relegation was a necessary evil to justify implementing a total overhaul of various aspects within the club.

Furthermore, some of the memories both Stubbs & Lennon gave our club will never be forgotten.

[lord bunberry]

We wouldn’t have won the cup if we hadn’t been relegated so I’m glad it happened. Anyone saying different is in denial. If we hadn’t been relegated the whole chain of events that led to that great day would never have happened. It was **** at the time, but it happened and the outcome was ****ing brilliant. FACT.

[lord bunberry]

Winning the Scottish Cup for the first time in 114 years wouldn't have been the same if we hadn't been relegated?
It probably wouldn’t have happened at all.

[Sir David Gray]

We wouldn’t have won the cup if we hadn’t been relegated so I’m glad it happened. Anyone saying different is in denial. If we hadn’t been relegated the whole chain of events that led to that great day would never have happened. It was **** at the time, but it happened and the outcome was ****ing brilliant. FACT.


It probably wouldn’t have happened at all.

You've said in one post that we categorically would not have won the cup without being relegated, people who disagree with you are in denial etc but then in your next post you've said we PROBABLY wouldn't have won the cup without being relegated? :confused:

The facts are that none of us know whether we would have won the cup or not if we had stayed up. We may have been even more successful if that relegation hadn't happened.

[Dibben]

I wouldn’t change it.

After relegation, we regrouped, improved and won the cup.

If we avoided relegation. Butcher MAY still have been in charge, so the Cup win, in my opinion wouldn’t happen.

We did get relegated and it did happen. Wouldn’t change that journey!

[Since452]

If we hadn't been relegated I don't think we'd have been left with around 5 first team players and if we did sack Butcher I think we'd have gone for a safer option than Stubbs. For those reasons and what followed I'm thankful

[danhibees1875]

I can see how you could argue either way, and I certainly don't think anyone is deluded or in denial when it comes to what could have happened either way - that's just silly talk.

There's plenty of examples of Hibs getting rid of managers even without being relegated, so there's no reason that we wouldn't have had the exact same overhaul, or a very similar one at least. It would have been great to have a couple of cracks at the premier league without rangers in the mix during that time period and there's nothing to say that we couldn't have had our cup success as well as some league success and European experience, and brought in a fair whack of money to set us up better now and going forward.

However what happened is what happened, and it was good. So there's no real need to gamble on that for an uncertain path - so, no.

[James Stephen]

Good original question, and one i have thought a lot about.

I undoubtedly wouldnt change a thing now.

The reasons being that while relegation was a very bad thing, and for a while seemed like it was going to be ruinous, it hasnt turned out like that.

Contrary to the popular belief among Hibs detractors in the media, Hibs actually turned that severe adversity into a triumph, and probably still dont get the credit they deserve for winning the cup, and being runners up in the cup in the same season as a lower league club. We also got to scottish cup semi finals the other two seasons we were down, as well as beating brondby away from home in europe.

It gave the board the impetus to radically shake up the club, and im not convinced a hibs team limping on into another season of mid table mediocrity would have had that urge and confidence to achieve that.

I also think that collective feeling of proving people wrong and taking scalps from the league above helped to forge the identity and mentality of that team, and being down there with hearts, rangers and dundee utd, and our wee rivalry with falkirk, meant there was no shortage of drama or big games.

So while relegation was emphatically not a good thing in itself, how the club and team responded was magnificent, and helped launch the club forward with significant less baggage dragging us down.

[BILLYHIBS]

Good original question, and one i have thought a lot about.

I undoubtedly wouldnt change a thing now.

The reasons being that while relegation was a very bad thing, and for a while seemed like it was going to be ruinous, it hasnt turned out like that.

Contrary to the popular belief among Hibs detractors in the media, Hibs actually turned that severe adversity into a triumph, and probably still dont get the credit they deserve for winning the cup, and being runners up in the cup in the same season as a lower league club. We also got to scottish cup semi finals the other two seasons we were down, as well as beating brondby away from home in europe.

It gave the board the impetus to radically shake up the club, and im not convinced a hibs team limping on into another season of mid table mediocrity would have had that urge and confidence to achieve that.

I also think that collective feeling of proving people wrong and taking scalps from the league above helped to forge the identity and mentality of that team, and being down there with hearts, rangers and dundee utd, and our wee rivalry with falkirk, meant there was no shortage of drama or big games.

So while relegation was emphatically not a good thing in itself, how the club and team responded was magnificent, and helped launch the club forward with significant less baggage dragging us down.

:top marks

[.Sean.]

Genuine question to those saying they wouldn't change things because of what happened over the next 2-3 years, why would that not have happened if we had managed to stay up in 2014?

I don't really follow that logic.
Had we stayed up we wouldn’t have had the cup run we did and we wouldn’t have won the cup in the manner we did. The butterfly effect.

Would not change the cup win for anything

[Keith_M]

I think three seasons outside the top flight was a decent price to pay for finally winning the cup.

We might have won it if we'd stayed up, who knows, but there also might not have been the clear out that led to us having Stubbs, McGinn, Stokes, etc, so I doubt it.

[.Sean.]

Genuine question to those saying they wouldn't change things because of what happened over the next 2-3 years, why would that not have happened if we had managed to stay up in 2014?

I don't really follow that logic.
Had we stayed up we wouldn’t have had the cup run we did and we wouldn’t have won the cup in the manner we did. The butterfly effect.

Would not change the cup win for anything

[EAZY-ME]

We could have been in aberdeens place coming second every season ...higher crowds more revenue and signed some decent players..... but at the same time maybe we still wouldn't have won the cup or had as much fun as we did or sign some of the gems we did or don't forget 9 in a row

[FilipinoHibs]

I am trying to forget about that game.

[Stevie Reid]

Definitely wouldn't have changed a thing in the lead up to us winning the cup - everything that led to it played its part in the unbelievable levels of elation and emotion that came with it. Was worth very single ounce of pain I'd experienced as a Hibs supporter to experience that.

Couple of things that I'd liked to have worked out differently since winning it -

Aberdeen semi final in 2017: deserved so much more that day, and it would have been amazing to defend our trophy that we won as a Championship team, all the way to the final - whilst still in the Championship.

Hearts league loss in May 2018: not a great performance on the night but again we deserved more. Still sticks in my throat that that wee rat Naismith scored the winner when he should have been suspended for the game. Even a point would have kept us in the hunt for 2nd place, I felt our performance over the season deserved to at least extent that possibility until the final day.

[Sir David Gray]

Had we stayed up we wouldn’t have had the cup run we did and we wouldn’t have won the cup in the manner we did. The butterfly effect.

Would not change the cup win for anything


Had we stayed up we wouldn’t have had the cup run we did and we wouldn’t have won the cup in the manner we did. The butterfly effect.

Would not change the cup win for anything

OK I get it! :greengrin

[CraigHibee]

What happened was a "few" years of mismanagement, gave us a wake up call and we had to get ourselves together, was gutting we went down but i believe it changed us for the better

[Hibs4185]

The Hamilton game was brutal and I’ve always disliked Hamilton since, but Kris Boyds goal for Kilmarnock was the goal actually put us in the play off.

Wouldn’t change a thing though, as we might have coasted along with more mediocrity for all these years without winning the Scottish cup.

[Pagan Hibernia]

only thing I would change would be the timing

any other year I wouldn’t have minded so much but to go down after holding a relegation party for hearts a month or two earlier was mortifying.

it takes a pretty special effort to emerge without bragging rights from a season when your city rivals have gone into administration, near liquidation, docked 15 points and relegated. Hibs made absolute fools out of us, but that’s all part and parcel of being a hibee :greengrin

[PH91]

If we hadn't got relegated then we don't know if we would have won the cup or not.

Surely no hibs fan would gamble that day in May 2016.

The answer is no.

[Steve20]

I don't understand how people can say we wouldn't have won the cup. Getting relegated wasn't the reason we won the Scottish Cup.

I think Dempster would also have emptied Butcher at the end of the season anyway. She's smart enough to realise he's an idiot.

[basehibby]

Genuine question to those saying they wouldn't change things because of what happened over the next 2-3 years, why would that not have happened if we had managed to stay up in 2014?

I don't really follow that logic.

The butterfly effect - if we hadn't been relegated you can be sure things would have worked out differently. It's impossible to fathom in precisely what ways but they would have been different alright. For starters, Butcher and Malpas may just have remained and the personnel on the pitch would have been different regardless of the manager. We probably would not have had such a big clear out and therefore would not have recruited in the same way. We would have had different games - different injuries and suspensions and different mentality in the squad. So to think we'd have had the same outcome in any given cup competition would be an enormous stretch.

[Barman Stanton]

I don't understand how people can say we wouldn't have won the cup. Getting relegated wasn't the reason we won the Scottish Cup.

I think Dempster would also have emptied Butcher at the end of the season anyway. She's smart enough to realise he's an idiot.

Well for a start would Celtic have loaned us Stokes and Henderson had we been in the same league? In fact I dont think they even could have due to the rules. Seeing how key they were its perfectly reasonable to suggest we dont win that cup unless we are relegated. Not in the way we did anyway.