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Ozyhibby
20-01-2020, 11:18 PM
https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2020/1/2/can-the-top-clubs-in-scotland-do-a-better-job-at-developing-young-players

Article showing the success Scotland’s top 6 clubs have had in the last 10 years developing players. We come a very unimpressive 6th. To be fair, Eddie May has only been here for 5 of those years but it does not seem to be improving.


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Stuart93
20-01-2020, 11:55 PM
https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2020/1/2/can-the-top-clubs-in-scotland-do-a-better-job-at-developing-young-players

Article showing the success Scotland’s top 6 clubs have had in the last 10 years developing players. We come a very unimpressive 6th. To be fair, Eddie May has only been here for 5 of those years but it does not seem to be improving.


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II’ve heard more bad than good regarding Eddie May and the way he’s portrayed by people who’ve been in and around hibs and the youth teams.

MagicSwirlingShip
21-01-2020, 12:06 AM
Interesting piece.

Still can't get my head around Wotherspoon being dropped for two cup finals. Madness

Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 12:08 AM
II’ve heard more bad than good regarding Eddie May and the way he’s portrayed by people who’ve been in and around hibs and the youth teams.

I can turn a blind eye to him allegedly being a bit of a dick if he gets results. However we def don’t seem to be getting results.


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DetroitHibs
21-01-2020, 12:26 AM
I’d be going old school and still have the boys cleaning boots and helping out around the place. Builds character and a bit back bone. We have too many “nice” boys coming thru. These boys are wrapped in cotton wool and the second they are exposed to shouts and abuse from the stands, most wilt.

green day
21-01-2020, 05:54 AM
https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2020/1/2/can-the-top-clubs-in-scotland-do-a-better-job-at-developing-young-players

Article showing the success Scotland’s top 6 clubs have had in the last 10 years developing players. We come a very unimpressive 6th. To be fair, Eddie May has only been here for 5 of those years but it does not seem to be improving.


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Given the financial muscle that the likes of Celtic have, you would think that we would be higher up this list (because teams that cant buy success need to develop it - see Hamilton).

I agree that this is a rather worrying (non) development - and even more frustrating because we went through a period of winning a lot at Dev level, but the players didnt seem to make the transition to first team.

As well as other issues, this should be close to the top of any grand plan that Ron G has.

Alfred E Newman
21-01-2020, 06:50 AM
The article only underlines what most of us have been saying for ages. Something is seriously wrong with
our scouting system and youth development or lack of it.

Brooster
21-01-2020, 08:05 AM
I’d be going old school and still have the boys cleaning boots and helping out around the place. Builds character and a bit back bone. We have too many “nice” boys coming thru. These boys are wrapped in cotton wool and the second they are exposed to shouts and abuse from the stands, most wilt.

When did the boys stop cleaning boots etc? They were still doing it at the end of last season. And yes Eddie May is the single largest blocker for us in terms of attracting top talent.

Hibee Mac
21-01-2020, 08:13 AM
That makes for some pretty grim reading, I trust the club will be looking into this kind of thing and how to improve although it is hard to tell how these figures are affected by previous years of failure (i.e. before Eddie May).

Must admit though I am not too impressed with his tenure (all be it relatively short) so far...

Onceinawhile
21-01-2020, 08:22 AM
The article only underlines what most of us have been saying for ages. Something is seriously wrong with
our scouting system and youth development or lack of it.

Not really. We are either the 3rd, 4th or 5th biggest side in Scotland depending on your take on things.

We've come 6th. it's hardly massive underachievement.

Good enough? Nope? Sign of something wrong? Yup but seriously wrong? bit ott.

Also - the stats in that article are devoid of context. In the last 10 years hearts have played lots of youngsters, and given them lots of game time. I wonder why? Perhaps it was the full season where they had to play their youth products because they went into administration?

Just a thought. Same with Rangers.

Viva_Palmeiras
21-01-2020, 08:29 AM
https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2020/1/2/can-the-top-clubs-in-scotland-do-a-better-job-at-developing-young-players

Article showing the success Scotland’s top 6 clubs have had in the last 10 years developing players. We come a very unimpressive 6th. To be fair, Eddie May has only been here for 5 of those years but it does not seem to be improving.


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As we know past performance is not an indication of the future.
What lens should we be looking at - the latest batch.

Juniper Greens
21-01-2020, 08:30 AM
I'm not sure those stats can be right. I can count 15 players who came though fairly easily, and am sure I'll be missing some

SideBurns
21-01-2020, 08:31 AM
The previous decade is one of unmitigated failure with regards to youth development, probably magnified by the success in the decade which preceded that. 'Golden generations' such as that which contained Brown, Thomson, Fletcher, Whittaker, Riordan etc aren't going to be regular occurrences but we need to be producing far more first team players from within our own ranks. Porteous is the only real success story in the last 10 years (you could make an argument for Spoony).

Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 08:32 AM
Not really. We are either the 3rd, 4th or 5th biggest side in Scotland depending on your take on things.

We've come 6th. it's hardly massive underachievement.

Good enough? Nope? Sign of something wrong? Yup but seriously wrong? bit ott.

Also - the stats in that article are devoid of context. In the last 10 years hearts have played lots of youngsters, and given them lots of game time. I wonder why? Perhaps it was the full season where they had to play their youth products because they went into administration?

Just a thought. Same with Rangers.

Annoying that the year Hearts played their youngsters they were better than us.[emoji35]


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Hibs4185
21-01-2020, 08:32 AM
I wrote about this a while ago. I have a tradesman who works for me. The family are all rabid yams. His laddie plays for hearts, rangers and hibs.

Very promising little player from what I’ve heard from other people. The dad has told me though that it’s between hibs and rangers who he signs for. I said not hearts? He said no they’re too regimented and strict with the kids so his son doesn’t like going to hearts. Hibs are the complete opposite and very relaxed. Rangers however are next level. Give all the younger players meals and nutrition etc. Basically treat them like mini professionals.

I don’t know his laddie has chosen but it was between hibs and rangers. Hibs because of the relaxed set up and close to the family home, but they really wanted to go to rangers even though it was 90 minute drive at rush hour 3-4 times a week.

GloryGlory
21-01-2020, 08:38 AM
The previous decade is one of unmitigated failure with regards to youth development, probably magnified by the success in the decade which preceded that. 'Golden generations' such as that which contained Brown, Thomson, Fletcher, Whittaker, Riordan etc aren't going to be regular occurrences but we need to be producing far more first team players from within our own ranks. Porteous is the only real success story in the last 10 years (you could make an argument for Spoony).

Yep. We seem to produce young players who can make the initial step up to the first team squad and look promising, but somehow their further development as professionals stalls at that point - thinking players like Harris, Stanton, Booth recently and Shaw and Murray currently.

Promoted too soon or just not adequately prepared for the professional game?

The 90+2
21-01-2020, 08:41 AM
Not really. We are either the 3rd, 4th or 5th biggest side in Scotland depending on your take on things.

We've come 6th. it's hardly massive underachievement.

Good enough? Nope? Sign of something wrong? Yup but seriously wrong? bit ott.

Also - the stats in that article are devoid of context. In the last 10 years hearts have played lots of youngsters, and given them lots of game time. I wonder why? Perhaps it was the full season where they had to play their youth products because they went into administration?

Just a thought. Same with Rangers.

In that ten years we have brought through next to nobody and have been relegated having finished second bottom in 2012 also. Hearts are still playing a lot more younger players than us every single season. If it’s Ron’s master plan to have the best youth policy in the country then it’s going to have to change and fast.

The 90+2
21-01-2020, 08:43 AM
The previous decade is one of unmitigated failure with regards to youth development, probably magnified by the success in the decade which preceded that. 'Golden generations' such as that which contained Brown, Thomson, Fletcher, Whittaker, Riordan etc aren't going to be regular occurrences but we need to be producing far more first team players from within our own ranks. Porteous is the only real success story in the last 10 years (you could make an argument for Spoony).

Porteous still has a hell of a lot to do.

Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 08:45 AM
Yep. We seem to produce young players who can make the initial step up to the first team squad and look promising, but somehow their further development as professionals stalls at that point - thinking players like Harris, Stanton, Booth recently and Shaw and Murray currently.

Promoted too soon or just not adequately prepared for the professional game?

Technically those guys are success stories as they are current professionals.


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hibee-boys
21-01-2020, 08:47 AM
Producing one youth over the last 10 years(Porteous), who has been able to contribute consistently for the first team , is simply not good enough. Not sure what the root cause is but it needs to be addressed now. This club, whether we like it or not, needs ongoing revenue from player sales. At the current rate we'd be as well binning the youth program and channel the money into buying young talent from smaller clubs e.g. players like Mcginn. Appreciate they don't come along often but when they do the likes if Aberdeen seem to be the one's moving for them first.

hibee-boys
21-01-2020, 08:49 AM
Technically those guys are success stories as they are current professionals.


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Success, maybe in their eyes, but what value have they produced for Hibs? Are we a feeder team, developing players for lower league teams?

Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 08:53 AM
Success, maybe in their eyes, but what value have they produced for Hibs? Are we a feeder team, developing players for lower league teams?

I totally agree, just pointing out that they are the best we have produced. Serious questions need asked of Hibs because a lot of money gets spent on youth development.


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SquashedFrogg
21-01-2020, 09:04 AM
Annoying that the year Hearts played their youngsters they were better than us.[emoji35]


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Whilst they done that through necessity it brought a few of them on. Experience and confidence to play.

For me it's having both a manager who puts trust in younger players and who gives them 'proper' opportunities. 10 mins here and there isn't ideal.

It's also a club philosophy where young players are allowed to make mistakes.

I'm not saying that every young Hibs player will be a star, but we develop them right up to the edge of the first team but rarely push them through.

Almost write them of before they've started.

It's not going to happen but I'd love to see more play regularly. Not 10 mins here, 5 mins there then out the squad.

Shaw for me is the perfect example. Murray another. Gullan too. Give them a platform week in, week out to develop and grow in confidence.

I know there's probably at least a couple of others who may also could be considered.

If 1 in every 3 comes good then that's a start.

Not quite the same but if I think of Boyle when he arrived aged 22. Had the potential but never really got anyone too excited at first. He's has grown through support and opportunity into a fabulous player.

Maybe Brown, Deeks, Gaz et al were just a freak batch. Or maybe they were just given the platform, environment and confidence to really thrive?

Who knows.

SideBurns
21-01-2020, 09:30 AM
Whilst they done that through necessity it brought a few of them on. Experience and confidence to play.

For me it's having both a manager who puts trust in younger players and who gives them 'proper' opportunities. 10 mins here and there isn't ideal.

It's also a club philosophy where young players are allowed to make mistakes.

I'm not saying that every young Hibs player will be a star, but we develop them right up to the edge of the first team but rarely push them through.

Almost write them of before they've started.

It's not going to happen but I'd love to see more play regularly. Not 10 mins here, 5 mins there then out the squad.

Shaw for me is the perfect example. Murray another. Gullan too. Give them a platform week in, week out to develop and grow in confidence.

I know there's probably at least a couple of others who may also could be considered.

If 1 in every 3 comes good then that's a start.

Not quite the same but if I think of Boyle when he arrived aged 22. Had the potential but never really got anyone too excited at first. He's has grown through support and opportunity into a fabulous player.

Maybe Brown, Deeks, Gaz et al were just a freak batch. Or maybe they were just given the platform, environment and confidence to really thrive?

Who knows.

In some respects, Brown, Thomson et al got their chance through necessity too (albeit, not in the same desperate situation as the Hearts laddies were blooded in) as Bobby Williamson took over when we were looking to cut the wage bill. Luckily, they were up to the job and we got 4 or 5 fantastic years out of them (as well as a trophy, and some huge transfer fees).

Alfred E Newman
21-01-2020, 09:56 AM
Not really. We are either the 3rd, 4th or 5th biggest side in Scotland depending on your take on things.

We've come 6th. it's hardly massive underachievement.

Good enough? Nope? Sign of something wrong? Yup but seriously wrong? bit ott.

Also - the stats in that article are devoid of context. In the last 10 years hearts have played lots of youngsters, and given them lots of game time. I wonder why? Perhaps it was the full season where they had to play their youth products because they went into administration?

Just a thought. Same with Rangers.

We were told the multi million pound investment in East Mains and the Academy was supposed to give us a big advantage when attracting young players. That doesn't seem to be the case or else our scouting system is not good enough. Rangers and Celtic are able to spend millions on players yet they still manage to unearth and bring through young players good enough to play in the first team. Hibs record in that respect over the past 10 years or so has been poor to say the least.

SquashedFrogg
21-01-2020, 09:58 AM
In some respects, Brown, Thomson et al got their chance through necessity too (albeit, not in the same desperate situation as the Hearts laddies were blooded in) as Bobby Williamson took over when we were looking to cut the wage bill. Luckily, they were up to the job and we got 4 or 5 fantastic years out of them (as well as a trophy, and some huge transfer fees).

Very true.

Ronniekirk
21-01-2020, 10:44 AM
https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2020/1/2/can-the-top-clubs-in-scotland-do-a-better-job-at-developing-young-players

Article showing the success Scotland’s top 6 clubs have had in the last 10 years developing players. We come a very unimpressive 6th. To be fair, Eddie May has only been here for 5 of those years but it does not seem to be improving.


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Says in ten years only 15 players have come through our system
The Ajax model aspires to three or four a season Probsbly beyond our reach consistently but it’s an area we need to improve on
What’s Ron’s master plan for this An indoor pitch alone won’t improve this ratio


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Purple & Green
21-01-2020, 10:49 AM
I'm not sure those stats can be right. I can count 15 players who came though fairly easily, and am sure I'll be missing some

They’re wrong.

I counted 36 players.

The assertion about David Wotherspoon is wrong too.

Most of the minutes played by academy players is by Hanlon and Stevenson.

Bobo
21-01-2020, 11:27 AM
When did the boys stop cleaning boots etc? They were still doing it at the end of last season. And yes Eddie May is the single largest blocker for us in terms of attracting top talent.

They still do, they have 2 or 3 senior players boots that then need to look after. It's always been the case.

Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 11:29 AM
They’re wrong.

I counted 36 players.

The assertion about David Wotherspoon is wrong too.

Most of the minutes played by academy players is by Hanlon and Stevenson.

They came through more than 10 years ago.


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GoalsMcGinley
21-01-2020, 11:41 AM
Whilst they done that through necessity it brought a few of them on. Experience and confidence to play.

For me it's having both a manager who puts trust in younger players and who gives them 'proper' opportunities. 10 mins here and there isn't ideal.

It's also a club philosophy where young players are allowed to make mistakes.

I'm not saying that every young Hibs player will be a star, but we develop them right up to the edge of the first team but rarely push them through.

Almost write them of before they've started.

It's not going to happen but I'd love to see more play regularly. Not 10 mins here, 5 mins there then out the squad.

Shaw for me is the perfect example. Murray another. Gullan too. Give them a platform week in, week out to develop and grow in confidence.

I know there's probably at least a couple of others who may also could be considered.

If 1 in every 3 comes good then that's a start.

Not quite the same but if I think of Boyle when he arrived aged 22. Had the potential but never really got anyone too excited at first. He's has grown through support and opportunity into a fabulous player.

Maybe Brown, Deeks, Gaz et al were just a freak batch. Or maybe they were just given the platform, environment and confidence to really thrive?

Who knows.

Our only genuine success in brining through young players in the last 30 years was at a time when finances dictated we HAD to play them regularly. That is the only reason we’ve failed to produce any since Steven Fletcher that we’ve sold on. Pure and simple we have talented young players but our managers would rather blow an entire transfer budget on journeyman from the lower reaches of English fitbaw because it’s seen as a level above ours. Fact of the matter is it’s not and we MUST give our young players the platform to progress. It’s the only way we are going to be able to grow as a club. The Ajax model of you will. Coach them, play them, sell them.


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Billy Whizz
21-01-2020, 11:45 AM
Our only genuine success in brining through young players in the last 30 years was at a time when finances dictated we HAD to play them regularly. That is the only reason we’ve failed to produce any since Steven Fletcher that we’ve sold on. Pure and simple we have talented young players but our managers would rather blow an entire transfer budget on journeyman from the lower reaches of English fitbaw because it’s seen as a level above ours. Fact of the matter is it’s not and we MUST give our young players the platform to progress. It’s the only way we are going to be able to grow as a club. The Ajax model of you will. Coach them, play them, sell them.


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100% agree with this. Look at Motherwell, players have a pathway to play in the 1st team
Hecky’s treatment of Oli and Fraser was shocking, knocked their careers back by a full season

J-C
21-01-2020, 11:54 AM
Our only genuine success in brining through young players in the last 30 years was at a time when finances dictated we HAD to play them regularly. That is the only reason we’ve failed to produce any since Steven Fletcher that we’ve sold on. Pure and simple we have talented young players but our managers would rather blow an entire transfer budget on journeyman from the lower reaches of English fitbaw because it’s seen as a level above ours. Fact of the matter is it’s not and we MUST give our young players the platform to progress. It’s the only way we are going to be able to grow as a club. The Ajax model of you will. Coach them, play them, sell them.


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I agree, instead of spending on Doidge, play Shaw regularly, instead of Newell promote Murray. Only way these lads will get better is exposing them to regular 1st team football.

Andy74
21-01-2020, 11:55 AM
100% agree with this. Look at Motherwell, players have a pathway to play in the 1st team
Hecky’s treatment of Oli and Fraser was shocking, knocked their careers back by a full season

I don't think they are good enough though. You need to have a pathway but not just for the sake of it.

It should be pretty tough getting into the Hibs first team - we have a good budget and can attract good, established players in and so the young players have to be better than those we can just go out and sign.

Eddie May produced a very high number of players through Falkirk. I've no idea how long that took to come to fruition but if we have totally changed the way we approach youth then I don't think you start producing a pile of payers straight away.

I think we've been a bit guilty at looking at the youth team and worrying about results - a lot of our fans still do. We need to forget about that and focus on producing players with the attributes to play first team football. We seem to have produced in recent years a lot of nice footballers who lack any of the physical and mental abilities needed to go with it.

Wheat Hound
21-01-2020, 11:59 AM
Surely developing a winning mentality at youth level cant be a bad thing. Sure the results arent all important but think ot still matters a bit.

Phil MaGlass
21-01-2020, 12:00 PM
Says in ten years only 15 players have come through our system
The Ajax model aspires to three or four a season Probsbly beyond our reach consistently but it’s an area we need to improve on
What’s Ron’s master plan for this An indoor pitch alone won’t improve this ratio


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You cant really compare Ajax to Hibs, Ajax have an amazing youth set up,thousands of kids that want to play for them, they have their hands in almost every kids club in Holland, but, we should definitely doing better.

Purple & Green
21-01-2020, 12:01 PM
They came through more than 10 years ago.


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You can’t ignore them though, because 2 places in the hibs team every week is taken by academy graduates.

Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 12:20 PM
I don't think they are good enough though. You need to have a pathway but not just for the sake of it.

It should be pretty tough getting into the Hibs first team - we have a good budget and can attract good, established players in and so the young players have to be better than those we can just go out and sign.

Eddie May produced a very high number of players through Falkirk. I've no idea how long that took to come to fruition but if we have totally changed the way we approach youth then I don't think you start producing a pile of payers straight away.

I think we've been a bit guilty at looking at the youth team and worrying about results - a lot of our fans still do. We need to forget about that and focus on producing players with the attributes to play first team football. We seem to have produced in recent years a lot of nice footballers who lack any of the physical and mental abilities needed to go with it.

The current crop of 18 year olds would have been 13 when Eddie May arrived at the club. There should def be some banging at the door of the first team by now.


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Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 12:22 PM
You can’t ignore them though, because 2 places in the hibs team every week is taken by academy graduates.

I know that. The article is about the last 10 years though and in that time we have struggled to bring players through.


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number9dream
21-01-2020, 12:26 PM
Has the decision to leave the reserve league been a success? Will it be the same again next season?
More players out on loan looks like the way forward but it's been a mixed bag this term, with only Gullan standing out with a few goals in League One.
Mackie is up and down in a disappointing Dundee team, the two lads at Arbroath faded out of the team, while Block seems to have done well but probably needs to step up a division, as has been mooted.
Maybe the injury to Mallan will mean we hold on to Murray but if he is to flourish, then maybe it's best to loan him out to a Championship club to see if he can cut it (Dunfermline & Morton could do with a spark).

Porteous as a regular, with Shaw, Murray & maybe Gullan on the fringes is not too bad, while Hanlon & Stevenson (and Whittaker who earned us a hefty transfer fee) obviously came through the ranks.
Ideally, we'd be looking at one player coming through each season and others capable of being understudies to first team regulars but we're a good bit away from that.

Billy Whizz
21-01-2020, 12:26 PM
I don't think they are good enough though. You need to have a pathway but not just for the sake of it.

It should be pretty tough getting into the Hibs first team - we have a good budget and can attract good, established players in and so the young players have to be better than those we can just go out and sign.

Eddie May produced a very high number of players through Falkirk. I've no idea how long that took to come to fruition but if we have totally changed the way we approach youth then I don't think you start producing a pile of payers straight away.

I think we've been a bit guilty at looking at the youth team and worrying about results - a lot of our fans still do. We need to forget about that and focus on producing players with the attributes to play first team football. We seem to have produced in recent years a lot of nice footballers who lack any of the physical and mental abilities needed to go with it.

In your opinion Andy

Barman Stanton
21-01-2020, 12:26 PM
The current crop of 18 year olds would have been 13 when Eddie May arrived at the club. There should def be some banging at the door of the first team by now.


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Only if they are good enough. We have had some great young players in the past. But we have also had ones getting game time that were probably not good enough for a club Hibs size.

Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 12:35 PM
Only if they are good enough. We have had some great young players in the past. But we have also had ones getting game time that were probably not good enough for a club Hibs size.

That’s my point. By now we should have produced some young players who are good enough. Only Porteous has managed to breakthrough in 5 years and even he is finding it difficult. 1 player in 5 years is a very poor return and I bet Eddie May never predicted that at his job interview.


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where'stheslope
21-01-2020, 12:41 PM
You've got to remember the Hertz total minutes are sky high as the season they were relegated they had a few journeymen and the rest were kids!
The next season was again full of youngsters and they won the league at a canter?
Ever since then they have rolled out youngsters on after the other, not all are any good, but its still producing.
We need the same thing at East Mains!!!!

hhibs
21-01-2020, 12:48 PM
Not really. We are either the 3rd, 4th or 5th biggest side in Scotland depending on your take on things.

We've come 6th. it's hardly massive underachievement.

Good enough? Nope? Sign of something wrong? Yup but seriously wrong? bit ott.

Also - the stats in that article are devoid of context. In the last 10 years hearts have played lots of youngsters, and given them lots of game time. I wonder why? Perhaps it was the full season where they had to play their youth products because they went into administration?

Just a thought. Same with Rangers.




We are the sixth of SIX,i.e. bottom of the pile,biggest failure etc,etc. !

ancient hibee
21-01-2020, 12:49 PM
So Hearts have been in never ending financial bother and are bottom of the league.Clearly the model to follow.Unless you know what the academy and youth development costs year on year you can’t judge whether it’s the way to go or not.Ma bye it’s much better to let other clubs do the development and bring in the finished article.

Henderson2Del
21-01-2020, 01:01 PM
In your opinion Andy

What part is his opinion? I’d say it’s obvious that the youth players
Coming through are simply not good enough as that a few managers not selecting them.
I think Andy is spot on

Billy Whizz
21-01-2020, 01:04 PM
What part is his opinion? I’d say it’s obvious that the youth players
Coming through are simply not good enough as that a few managers not selecting them.
I think Andy is spot on

Doesn’t help any youth academy, when you have 3 First Coach’s in a year, hardly anyone of them get an opportunity

McKenzie
21-01-2020, 01:10 PM
So Hearts have been in never ending financial bother and are bottom of the league.Clearly the model to follow.Unless you know what the academy and youth development costs year on year you can’t judge whether it’s the way to go or not.Ma bye it’s much better to let other clubs do the development and bring in the finished article.

Doesn’t matter how much is costing to hibs, it’s not value for money as we are seeing zero rewards. If we’d scrapped the academy for the last 10 years we wouldn’t be any worse off.

J-C
21-01-2020, 01:23 PM
The current crop of 18 year olds would have been 13 when Eddie May arrived at the club. There should def be some banging at the door of the first team by now.


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There is to be fair, Gullan back from loan and looking to push into the squad, Murray has been there abouts this season, Mackie doing fairly well at Dundee, Shaw a regular squad player and Porteous, add in Stirling and Dabrowski the goalie both on loan and doing not too bad. That's 6 and if 3 out of that make it here that's not a bad return.

I also think the mind set of some youngsters is important and having the quality of our senior players to look up to, cant be a bad thing, especially if they go into coaching.

Henderson2Del
21-01-2020, 01:49 PM
Doesn’t help any youth academy, when you have 3 First Coach’s in a year, hardly anyone of them get an opportunity

I agree but surely if they were good enough one of the 3 would use them. Not as if we are overflowing with talent

Is It On....
21-01-2020, 02:00 PM
We should be looking at the analysis that contrubuted to us releasing LG and McNulty as 16 year olds. Hearts also released a 16 year old called Jason Cummings who did quite well elsewhere. But the prize for the biggest error was Celtic releasing a 16 year called Andrew Robertson who a few people will have heard off!! This is now "free information" so if we can learn from the past and avoid similar mistakes in the future then the we should be in for a better future.

Peevemor
21-01-2020, 02:05 PM
We should be looking at the analysis that contrubuted to us releasing LG and McNulty as 16 year olds. Hearts also released a 16 year old called Jason Cummings who did quite well elsewhere. But the prize for the biggest error was Celtic releasing a 16 year called Andrew Robertson who a few people will have heard off!! This is now "free information" so if we can learn from the past and avoid similar mistakes in the future then the we should be in for a better future.

Cummings was carrying a long term injury and Hearts were in administration. I'm not sure they could have kept him on even if they wanted to.

Is It On....
21-01-2020, 02:24 PM
Cummings was carrying a long term injury and Hearts were in administration. I'm not sure they could have kept him on even if they wanted to.

The injury would have played a factor but if they thought he was going to make it they wouldn't have released him (his wages would have been low anyway). So what else could it have been? Was it it that all 4 were not very tall and coaching staff, such as Levein, couldn't see past that?

I would be stunned if we don't analyse why transfers did/didn't work so would hope we are doing the same thing with youth players and their development.

nobodyinparticu
21-01-2020, 02:58 PM
Anyone know how the Development team are doing this afternoon

Ozyhibby
21-01-2020, 03:02 PM
There is to be fair, Gullan back from loan and looking to push into the squad, Murray has been there abouts this season, Mackie doing fairly well at Dundee, Shaw a regular squad player and Porteous, add in Stirling and Dabrowski the goalie both on loan and doing not too bad. That's 6 and if 3 out of that make it here that's not a bad return.

I also think the mind set of some youngsters is important and having the quality of our senior players to look up to, cant be a bad thing, especially if they go into coaching.

Shaw and Macklemore both came from other set ups. And none of them apart from porteous is really threatening to make an impact although sounds like Gullan doing well.
If the system is only going to bring through one player every five years maybe we should look at the Brentford model?


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Billy Whizz
21-01-2020, 03:19 PM
Anyone know how the Development team are doing this afternoon

We don’t play until next Monday

Billy Whizz
21-01-2020, 03:23 PM
Shaw and Macklemore both came from other set ups. And none of them apart from porteous is really threatening to make an impact although sounds like Gullan doing well.
If the system is only going to bring through one player every five years maybe we should look at the Brentford model?


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We had around 4 Development players in the match day squad on Sunday, think that’s a decent number
I’m hoping most of them get some game time over the next few weeks

As an aside Celtic Academy has a budget around 15 times what Hibs have, Rangers won’t be far short of that
Just shows you how hard it is to get players through the system, and into the 1st team
Celtic I think only have Mikey Johnson of recent, and Rangers played an 18 year old right back against Stranraer, so it’s tough for everyone

Sergio sledge
22-01-2020, 03:46 PM
The current crop of 18 year olds would have been 13 when Eddie May arrived at the club. There should def be some banging at the door of the first team by now.


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The second part of the article you posted above is pretty interesting in this regard: https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2020/1/3/a-statistical-look-at-how-clubs-can-do-a-better-job-of-developing-players

I always had it in my head that if a player wasn't a first team regular by the time he was 21 then he wouldn't make it, but it seems from the statistics that generally the player needs to have played by the time they are 19 if they want to become a first team regular (played more than 4,000 minutes for the parent club in this study);

"67% of the 4,000 minute club made their debuts by the age of 18 & 89% had played by the time they were 19"

If we want to be able to sell prospects develop the club that way, then they need to have played the equivalent of more than 11 full games by the time they are 18 if we want to have any hope of selling them on for a significant fee as only 7% of players who hadn't played 1,000 minutes or more by 18 earned their club a transfer fee. 50% of players who had played 1,000 minutes before 18 earned their club a transfer fee.

"the players who played at least 1,000 minutes by the time they were 18 brought in 95% of the transfer fees collected by clubs for players developed in their systems."

We need to be playing our younger players earlier. Fraser Murray has been touted in a lot of quarters as a big prospect but he had hardly any minutes before he turned 18 and is only on 1,259 at nearly 21. I'd suggest on that basis, he might become a first team regular but is unlikely to net us a transfer fee. This isn't a bad thing if he plays to a high level for us, but as a club we do need to be selling players sometimes.

Porteous is in a better position as he's on the verge of getting to 4,000 minutes already.

Is there anyone under 18 or 19 at the club who's likely to make a first team appearance this year?

greenlex
22-01-2020, 04:32 PM
I agree, instead of spending on Doidge, play Shaw regularly, instead of Newell promote Murray. Only way these lads will get better is exposing them to regular 1st team football.

This isn’t going to happen with the league set up as it is. It needs more teams and breathing space. You’re either chasing Europe or fighting the drop. No chance taken on youngsters in those circumstances unless you have to financially

Billy Whizz
22-01-2020, 04:40 PM
This isn’t going to happen with the league set up as it is. It needs more teams and breathing space. You’re either chasing Europe or fighting the drop. No chance taken on youngsters in those circumstances unless you have to financially

And that’s the crux of the matter

J-C
22-01-2020, 04:51 PM
This isn’t going to happen with the league set up as it is. It needs more teams and breathing space. You’re either chasing Europe or fighting the drop. No chance taken on youngsters in those circumstances unless you have to financially
And probably why Hamilton are always relegation candidates, once you have your established regular team, you can introduce youth. I understand if we want to be at the top or near to it, youth will struggle unless they're exceptional.

greenlex
22-01-2020, 04:52 PM
And probably why Hamilton are always relegation candidates, once you have your established regular team, you can introduce youth. I understand if we want to be at the top or near to it, youth will struggle unless they're exceptional.

Yup and if they had the finance they wouldn’t have as many in the first team.

delbert
22-01-2020, 04:58 PM
And probably why Hamilton are always relegation candidates, once you have your established regular team, you can introduce youth. I understand if we want to be at the top or near to it, youth will struggle unless they're exceptional.

Producing players through their academy is ALL that Hamilton can hope for every season, they had 900 fans at home for Saturday’s fixture against Edinburgh City.

greenlad
22-01-2020, 04:58 PM
The second part of the article you posted above is pretty interesting in this regard: https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2020/1/3/a-statistical-look-at-how-clubs-can-do-a-better-job-of-developing-players

I always had it in my head that if a player wasn't a first team regular by the time he was 21 then he wouldn't make it, but it seems from the statistics that generally the player needs to have played by the time they are 19 if they want to become a first team regular (played more than 4,000 minutes for the parent club in this study);

"67% of the 4,000 minute club made their debuts by the age of 18 & 89% had played by the time they were 19"

If we want to be able to sell prospects develop the club that way, then they need to have played the equivalent of more than 11 full games by the time they are 18 if we want to have any hope of selling them on for a significant fee as only 7% of players who hadn't played 1,000 minutes or more by 18 earned their club a transfer fee. 50% of players who had played 1,000 minutes before 18 earned their club a transfer fee.

"the players who played at least 1,000 minutes by the time they were 18 brought in 95% of the transfer fees collected by clubs for players developed in their systems."

We need to be playing our younger players earlier. Fraser Murray has been touted in a lot of quarters as a big prospect but he had hardly any minutes before he turned 18 and is only on 1,259 at nearly 21. I'd suggest on that basis, he might become a first team regular but is unlikely to net us a transfer fee. This isn't a bad thing if he plays to a high level for us, but as a club we do need to be selling players sometimes.

Porteous is in a better position as he's on the verge of getting to 4,000 minutes already.

Is there anyone under 18 or 19 at the club who's likely to make a first team appearance this year?


Great insight. No doubt there'll be those that counter those figures with "stats tell you nothing!" and "fitba's played on grass, no' in a maths class!" but if those are the norms and trends then you have to ask what makes Hibs young players so different they can avoid getting the requisite gametime by the appropriate age and still somehow become first team regulars down the line. Answer is that they are not and they won't.

J-C
22-01-2020, 04:59 PM
Yup and if they had the finance they wouldn’t have as many in the first team.

My biggest gripe over the past few years is the rubbish players brought in instead if giving youth a chance but when you sit back and look at it, were they any good anyway. This past 5-6 years the youth have been technically decent but mentally/physically not ready, why?

J-C
22-01-2020, 05:00 PM
Producing players through their academy is ALL that Hamilton can hope for every season, they had 900 fans at home for Saturday’s fixture against Edinburgh City.

Yep, the regular 1 or 2 sales pee year keep them going.

King conrad
22-01-2020, 05:12 PM
https://www.modernfitba.com/blogs/2020/1/2/can-the-top-clubs-in-scotland-do-a-better-job-at-developing-young-players

Article showing the success Scotland’s top 6 clubs have had in the last 10 years developing players. We come a very unimpressive 6th. To be fair, Eddie May has only been here for 5 of those years but it does not seem to be improving.


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To me our youth players don't look physically ready, Oli Shaw for example still looks too thin and has been around the first team for long enough to strengthen up. Fraser Murray is looking bigger but he is now 20 years old. I'm not saying that physicality is all you need to play proffesional football but it plays a huge part, Ryan Porteous was thrown in earlier in my opinion because he could handle playing against men. Diet and fitness doesn't get taken seriously enough with young players in Scotland not just Hibs

GoalsMcGinley
22-01-2020, 05:15 PM
My biggest gripe over the past few years is the rubbish players brought in instead if giving youth a chance but when you sit back and look at it, were they any good anyway. This past 5-6 years the youth have been technically decent but mentally/physically not ready, why?

Between them all you’d be lucky if they racked up 50/60 appearances for the 1st team. That’s the issue. We don’t play our young guys. We would rather sign lower league dross from England.


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Yorkshire HFC
22-01-2020, 06:00 PM
To me our youth players don't look physically ready, Oli Shaw for example still looks too thin and has been around the first team for long enough to strengthen up. Fraser Murray is looking bigger but he is now 20 years old. I'm not saying that physicality is all you need to play proffesional football but it plays a huge part, Ryan Porteous was thrown in earlier in my opinion because he could handle playing against men. Diet and fitness doesn't get taken seriously enough with young players in Scotland not just Hibs

I don't believe that professional football clubs aren't very strict with diet and fitness. In the Alex Miller era Hibs went on a winter break and I know someone who went with them - he said that the players were very careful with what they ate.

I know 50 year old men in my running club who keep food diaries, visit nutritionists and pt's - and they're just old guys running round the block a couple of times a week!

Dashing Bob S
22-01-2020, 06:04 PM
I think the training facility has been better in improving established players than developing youth players.

greenlex
22-01-2020, 07:17 PM
I don't believe that professional football clubs aren't very strict with diet and fitness. In the Alex Miller era Hibs went on a winter break and I know someone who went with them - he said that the players were very careful with what they ate.

I know 50 year old men in my running club who keep food diaries, visit nutritionists and pt's - and they're just old guys running round the block a couple of times a week!
The younger players are fed and watered at East Mains (as I’m sure the first team are.). It’s part of their remuneration thus lower wages.

greenlex
22-01-2020, 07:20 PM
My biggest gripe over the past few years is the rubbish players brought in instead if giving youth a chance but when you sit back and look at it, were they any good anyway. This past 5-6 years the youth have been technically decent but mentally/physically not ready, why?
If they aren’t getting serious game time we will never know. This is how I feel about Shaw l thought he done enough in his short stint(Starts in particular) to merit more game time. Playing one up front has hurt him the most.