John Park, Tony Mowbray and East Mains

[RIP]

https://www.scotsman.com/sport/football/premiership/hibs-unveil-163-3m-training-centre-1-986430

12 years ago, and due to my involvement in Fans Forums, I was fortunate to receive an invite to attend the 2007 opening of East Mains. This venture had been the dream of Tony Mowbray, then fresh into football management and supported by then Head of Youth Academy John Park.

John and Tony believed that with a dedicated Academy and Training centre, they would be able to attract and develop even more young talent and kick on for an even higher finish and tilt at trophies. The latter ambition was borne out in 2007 under John Collins by reaching a semi-final of the Scottish Cup and winning the League Cup. Tony had taken the 'Golden Generation' of home grown talent from the academy run by John since 1998 to two successive top four finishes.

East Mains concentrates all the other aspects of a football operation into a single site e.g. offices, kitchens, video analysis, gym, medical treatment, training pitches, indoor facilities - all away from the city in a beautiful location. This impressive facility offers us the chance to recruit players to Hibs.


Why was it that when we were using the more basic facilities in central Scotland, players such as Brown, Thomson, O'Connor, Whittaker, Riordan and then Caldwell, Stevenson and Hanlon were drawn to Hibs and came through the first team? Yet in the past 12-14 years how many players have come through from our youth development structure and held down a first-team role?
Was John Park the 'One Who Got Away' when he left his role at Hibs for Celtic in 2007 (after turning down Rangers, West Brom and a youth coaching opportunity at Chelsea)? He was brought in by Alex McLeish in 1998 which was when he had brought in the Golden Generation some as young as 10
Has the location been a mistake? Under McLeish and Park at Motherwell John had secured facilities that parents could transport their kids to from the main population bases? Was Ormiston too far for kids and parents from central Scotland
Can anyone out there put forward a theory?

[Hakim Sar]

It’s not just the car you drive it’s the driver of the car, i.e we need to have the right people running the show from behind the scenes. John Park clearly could develop talent in a cabbage patch and we have missed him and his abilities.

Video analysis is a wonderful thing, but when all your competitors also have it, once again, your competitive advantage comes down to WHO is doing the analysis, not WHAT computers you have.

The NFL has been at the forefront of video analysis for decades, other sports are only now beginning to wake up and catch up, but it’s the same over there... the quality of your facilities are only as good as the quality of your staff. The brain is still the best tool for deploying strategy and also studying nuances and trends. An intelligent coach holding paper prints is still more effective than a clueless coach with an iPad and bespoke software.

Anyways, Brown, Riordan and O’Connor all had talent yes, but they also had personality, perhaps even more so than what they could do with a ball, and thats quite a statement on reflection, but I hold it true.Whether that was bred in the streets, or the public parks of 1990s Edinburgh is anyone’s guess, but I wonder how much East Mains can truly contribute to character building. The strongest steel is forged in the hottest fires. Perhaps East Mains is too sheltered and safe.

However, I genuinely admire Hibs and the board for being the proud owners of one of Scotland’s premier sports technology facilities. It’s a project that is long term though and 13 years, in my opinion only, is perhaps too short a period for a significant increase in youth talent to be evident.

It will come though. Thanks to Mogga et al for building this vision and facility. Imagine if we were training the boys at Peffermill in 2020? I just wonder if the Lochend land we had could have been a suitable spot for the HFC academy? Anyhoo, East Mains is an asset not a liability and long may it continue to be part of our club.

[Torto7]

I think there's also an argument that bringing them through together and putting several into the first team at once can help. Hibs were in big financial trouble then and Bobby Williamson didn't really have a choice but to throw them in.

[Smartie]

I think there's also an argument that bringing them through together and putting several into the first team at once can help. Hibs were in big financial trouble then and Bobby Williamson didn't really have a choice but to throw them in.

I think there’s quite a lot of merit in this argument.

Obviously they were all talented, but they got an opportunity loads of players don’t get - a chance in the first team, and a decent chance to stay there. By playing regular football at a high level at an early age they all grew as players and the rough edges youngsters often have were quickly knocked off.

It’s funny how often necessity throws up stuff like this. When Hearts lost all their higher earners a few years ago their youngsters (who wouldn’t normally have had a look in) got their chance, formed the core of a decent side and many went on to have decent careers.

[matty_f]

I think we've evolved how the training centre has been used and improved the staff there over the years since it has been opened. I've been on three or four tours up there and each time there's been a change and improvement to the operations.

To address the OP's points, here are my thoughts:

- I don't think this is necessarily a Hibs-specific issue. No team is churning out youngsters like we did with the Golden Generation. This is partly due to social changes - fewer spaces to play, other alternatives for kids, structured coaching being the main option which, while good, takes away the instinctive aspect that you get from playing with your mates in the street etc. You could ask the question whether Stevenson, and Hanlon would have had the careers that they have had without the benefit of the training centre. Additionally, the net that English clubs can cast to find the best youth players is now worldwide. If there's an outstanding Scottish prospect, the pecking order is English EPL clubs, then the OF, then the rest of us. The bigger fish would have snapped up Brown, Riordan and Thomson etc back in the day.

- John Park was undoubtedly talented, keeping him would likely have helped.

- I don't know what arrangements there are for players outside the Edinburgh and Lothians area, so can't answer this one.

- I think you'd need to look at where we'd be without those facilities. Would we attract the same standard of player? Would we get the improvements in players like we've seen in (for example) John McGinn and Martin Boyle? I suspect not. Certainly the Scottish Cup win was achieved through analysing Rangers' deficiencies at corners and taking advantage of it - that required the tools that we have...

[jacomo]

EM has undoubtedly helped us attract and retain good players imo.

I am as frustrated as other fans that more young players haven’t broken through into the first team but the ‘golden generation’ was aptly named: a genuinely once in a generation occurrence.

I think the location was probably determined for us by high land values in Edinburgh itself. It’s no bad thing to have a facility away in the countryside, isolated from negative influences.

[Cataplana]

EM has undoubtedly helped us attract and retain good players imo.

I am as frustrated as other fans that more young players haven’t broken through into the first team but the ‘golden generation’ was aptly named: a genuinely once in a generation occurrence.

I think the location was probably determined for us by high land values in Edinburgh itself. It’s no bad thing to have a facility away in the countryside, isolated from negative influences.

Was it not a piece of land that STF wanted rid of?

[Peevemor]

Was it not a piece of land that STF wanted rid of?

Not at all. It was bought by STF specifically for the training centre.

[Seveno]

John Park’s ability was in developing a scouting system to identify young talent. That would work whether or not we we had EM.

The coaching staff then develop them.

[Cataplana]

Not at all. It was bought by STF specifically for the training centre.

Fair enough. Probably should have been closer to town in that case.

[Bishop Hibee]

Is it not the case that the City of Edinburgh Council rejected an approach from Hibs for a joint facility at Hunter’s Hall which would have in some way incorporated a revamped Jack Kane Centre?

[Peevemor]

Fair enough. Probably should have been closer to town in that case.

The closer to Edinburgh the more difficult and expensive it would have become.

[Peevemor]

Is it not the case that the City of Edinburgh Council rejected an approach from Hibs for a joint facility at Hunter’s Hall which would have in some way incorporated a revamped Jack Kane Centre?

Yes.

[Smartie]

Whilst we’ve maybe not brought through as many of our own youngsters as we might have liked, we have seen a few “raw talents” develop and improve.

Jason Cummings became a better player year on year and Martin Boyle improved massively. John McGinn IMO became a much better player at Hibs (from a strong starting position), Scott Allan has played his best football for Hibs.

Do they progress as much on dug***** strewn parks? Do we attract Stubbs, Lennon, Ross to work in drastically inferior surroundings?

[Cataplana]

The closer to Edinburgh the more difficult and expensive it would have become.

Maybe they didn't spend enough then, as it doesn't seem to have delivered in terms of youth development.

I'd hate to be a parent of a kid coming from North Edinburgh and trying to get there for evening training.

[Seveno]

Is it not the case that the City of Edinburgh Council rejected an approach from Hibs for a joint facility at Hunter’s Hall which would have in some way incorporated a revamped Jack Kane Centre?

That was the vision of STF. He wanted it to be a community facility as well as a training centre.

[Hibeesforever]

Maybe they didn't spend enough then, as it doesn't seem to have delivered in terms of youth development.

I'd hate to be a parent of a kid coming from North Edinburgh and trying to get there for evening training.

I tend to agree with this, the location is a problem for parents doing taxi duties. I dont think there is a railway station nearby either.

[Helensburghhibs]

It's definately not to do with location as when John Park was here we had to travel to Dalziel near Holytown for training which is much more inconvenient than Tranent. Also on a side note John was head scout for a long time at hibs before he took over the academy side of things and his contact "developing" players was limited. It's in no doubt his running of the youth setup had a positive impact on players who came through but its worth remembering a lot of players at that time were signed from boys clubs. Riordon, oconner, brown etc never came to hibs until quite far down the development road.

[Helensburghhibs]

John Park’s ability was in developing a scouting system to identify young talent. That would work whether or not we we had EM.

The coaching staff then develop them.

Spot on mate. John Park was a scout not a coach

[Peevemor]

It's definately not to do with location as when John Park was here we had to travel to Dalziel near Holytown for training which is much more inconvenient than Tranent. Also on a side note John was head scout for a long time at hibs before he took over the academy side of things and his contact "developing" players was limited. It's in no doubt his running of the youth setup had a positive impact on players who came through but its worth remembering a lot of players at that time were signed from boys clubs. Riordon, oconner, brown etc never came to hibs until quite far down the development road.The combination of John & Donald Park seemed to work very well.

[offshorehibby]

The combination of John & Donald Park seemed to work very well.

Did Donald Park not come after John or were they there at the same time.

[Peevemor]

Did Donald Park not come after John or were they there at the same time.They were there at the same time. Donald was at ER from 1994 to 2002 (finishing as Sauzée's assistant) and then came back as Mixu's assistant in 2008.

[Hibs4185]

Personally In the darker years I always felt that East Mains was part of our problem. Poor players that were pampered by the facilities, maybe lead them to thinking that they had ‘made it’ and perhaps not having the hunger or desire to improve.

If you are in crap facilities It would maybe give players the hunger to improve and get a move to a bigger club.

East Mains is a tremendous asset though.

[Kato]

Is it not the case that the City of Edinburgh Council rejected an approach from Hibs for a joint facility at Hunter’s Hall which would have in some way incorporated a revamped Jack Kane Centre?They also made clear to Hibs that we would struggle to get any training facility past planning in the Edinburgh area. Petrie said working with East Lothian council was like night and day. Hunters Hall would have been amazing for Hibs and Niddrie.

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[JeMeSouviens]

I think there's also an argument that bringing them through together and putting several into the first team at once can help. Hibs were in big financial trouble then and Bobby Williamson didn't really have a choice but to throw them in.

Allegedly Williamson tried to swap Riordan and Whittaker for Bobby Mann who was at ICT at the time. Sometimes football management is as much luck as judgement it would seem.

[bigwheel]

Allegedly Williamson tried to swap Riordan and Whittaker for Bobby Mann who was at ICT at the time. Sometimes football management is as much luck as judgement it would seem.

Not quite what happened. Hibs offered to exchange player(s) for Mann. Donald Park who was at ICT at the time, and new the Hibs youngsters, asked for Riordan And Whittaker . Hibs told them no deal..... Williamson denies he was up for doing the deal ....

[jgl07]

Allegedly Williamson tried to swap Riordan and Whittaker for Bobby Mann who was at ICT at the time. Sometimes football management is as much luck as judgement it would seem.

Urban myth. It was put about by John Robertson many years after the event to stir trouble.

[JeMeSouviens]

Fair play, thanks for corrections. It did sound daft.

[Fanforlife]

For me East Mains is a great asset ,however not without its downside,travel,freezing etc .Having said that the coldest ivve been at any of my grandsons Hibs games (now playing for under 15 group)was Oriam indoors genuinely had to go outside for a heat and it had been snowing.As for the distance from city obviously this can be a problem, however in grandsons group at least one stays in Berwick upon Tweed ,probably more in other age groups as well travel a fair distance.On a downside note to finish post ive just heard a Hibs kid at Broughton performance school has been badly injured today,Son in Law said it's the worse injury he's ever seen,hopefully lad makes a full recovery.

[Smartie]

Fair play, thanks for corrections. It did sound daft.

It is funny how it is a story that has now entered folklore, mainly as a stick to beat Bobby Williamson with - a move that he didn’t instigate and ultimately he booted out.

[McKenzie]

100% the quality of coaching. Oriam isn’t exactly prime location for accessing but they manage to attract vast array of talents. All about the programmes put in place within the buildings. At what point do the youth team managers and leaders come into question when we continually fail to either produce or attract the quality of player to challenge the first team.

[Dmas]

I think the development league structure has been the cause of not just our youth team woes but the majority of the leagues. There’s a good article on the athletic if anyone subscribes about brentford, they ditched their academy structure in favour of B team 3 years ago, before that move they hadn’t had a notable young player come through in 3 years since then they’ve saw 16 players break into the first team and they made £100m in transfer fees.
We’ve recently done similar and we’ve played against brentford on a few occasions so you never know maybe reap similar rewards in a couple years time

[PaulSmith]

I wonder now if Hibs are looking at the facilities that are in plan by Edinburgh University at Peffermill and having any dialogue?


https://www.ed.ac.uk/estates/campus-development/central-campus/current-projects/peffermill-sports-village




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[MagicSwirlingShip]

I wonder now if Hibs are looking at the facilities that are in plan by Edinburgh University at Peffermill and having any dialogue?


https://www.ed.ac.uk/estates/campus-development/central-campus/current-projects/peffermill-sports-village




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Doubt it when we have our own space with room to develop.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

The idea that we could have a conveyer belt of talent was/is an easy to disrupt.

1) Entice away the key personnel - Park to Celtic
2) Kill the reserve league - iirc Rangers and Celtic withdrew ?
3) pay more to entice starlets away before they’ve had time to really develop.

To counter this
A) Establish and develop a network of hungry, smart key roles with development paths / succession planning
B) setup more targeted opposition friendless that will develop the players as opposed to trouncing East of Scotland league opponents which learns you nothing - Lewis Allan talked of this at Sponsors evening
C) offer to develop kids in a wider sense as human beings, care and nurture them appreciating not all of them will make it but if the mega bucks cone...

[Since452]

Fair enough. Probably should have been closer to town in that case.

Looking at various clubs training facilities distances to their grounds.

East Mains to Easter Road - 13 miles 24 mins
Hummel training center to Ibrox - 7.2 miles 18 mins
Lennoxtown to Celtic park - 14 miles 29 mins
Aberdeen training Center to Pittodrie - 7.6 miles 20 mins

Can't include Hearts as they obviously don't have their own facility

[Northern Hibby]

I like East Mains but I think it should be coupled with a bit of old school sand dunne running. 😉

[Brooster]

[QUOTE=McKenzie;6049985]100% the quality of coaching. Oriam isn’t exactly prime location for accessing but they manage to attract vast array of talents. All about the programmes put in place within the buildings. At what point do the youth team managers and leaders come into question when we continually fail to either produce or attract the quality of player to challenge the first team.[/QUOTE

Spot on. Said it before and I'll say it again.....as long as the current folk heading up the academy are still there we wont produce anywhere near the number of youths through the ranks that we should be.

[Dmas]

Looking at various clubs training facilities distances to their grounds.

East Mains to Easter Road - 13 miles 24 mins
Hummel training center to Ibrox - 7.2 miles 18 mins
Lennoxtown to Celtic park - 14 miles 29 mins
Aberdeen training Center to Pittodrie - 7.6 miles 20 mins

Can't include Hearts as they obviously don't have their own facility

I know a young player at Celtic who regularly tells me East Mains is by far a better facility than Lennoxtown......minus the wind

[Dmas]

The idea that we could have a conveyer belt of talent was/is an easy to disrupt.

1) Entice away the key personnel - Park to Celtic
2) Kill the reserve league - iirc Rangers and Celtic withdrew ?
3) pay more to entice starlets away before they’ve had time to really develop.

To counter this
A) Establish and develop a network of hungry, smart key roles with development paths / succession planning
B) setup more targeted opposition friendless that will develop the players as opposed to trouncing East of Scotland league opponents which learns you nothing - Lewis Allan talked of this at Sponsors evening
C) offer to develop kids in a wider sense as human beings, care and nurture them appreciating not all of them will make it but if the mega bucks cone...

The fixture list put in place will be key as you say you learn nothing hammering east of scotland players every week,you need to get a challenging schedule set up so that it in effect takes out the ‘friendly’ atmosphere surrounding it, the guys need challenged and they need to be playing to compete but also can’t be getting hammered every week themselves, quite the balancing act

[Dmas]

[QUOTE=McKenzie;6049985]100% the quality of coaching. Oriam isn’t exactly prime location for accessing but they manage to attract vast array of talents. All about the programmes put in place within the buildings. At what point do the youth team managers and leaders come into question when we continually fail to either produce or attract the quality of player to challenge the first team.[/QUOTE

Spot on. Said it before and I'll say it again.....as long as the current folk heading up the academy are still there we wont produce anywhere near the number of youths through the ranks that we should be.

Can I ask why you think this is the case? has Eddie May been there long enough for anything he’s done to have an effect on younger guys?

[Since452]

Think the club are doing all they can. We've got elite status so meeting the top criteria

[Brightside]

I know a young player at Celtic who regularly tells me East Mains is by far a better facility than Lennoxtown......minus the wind

Both have almost the exact same facilities. Celtic were supposed to build a dome a few years back but it’s never happened. The Celtic Astro is better than any of the league astros.

[Brooster]

[QUOTE=Brooster;6050195]

Can I ask why you think this is the case? has Eddie May been there long enough for anything he’s done to have an effect on younger guys?

Without going in to it too much Eddie May has an impact on all youths at the club, he also has an impact on the players we try attract to the club. Note...for impact read negative impact.

[Greenworld]

[QUOTE=Brooster;6050195]

Can I ask why you think this is the case? has Eddie May been there long enough for anything he’s done to have an effect on younger guys?He has been at Hibs for almost 6 years heading up the academy.
Personally I think that is long enough and would like to see a fresh face lead it. I am never enthused by Eddie but to be fair to him it is what all the coaches and kids think I've read on here before he was not overly liked .

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[Dmas]

[QUOTE=Dmas;6050211]

Without going in to it too much Eddie May has an impact on all youths at the club, he also has an impact on the players we try attract to the club. Note...for impact read negative impact.


[QUOTE=Dmas;6050211]He has been at Hibs for almost 6 years heading up the academy.
Personally I think that is long enough and would like to see a fresh face lead it. I am never enthused by Eddie but to be fair to him it is what all the coaches and kids think I've read on here before he was not overly liked .

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I see, I was of the thinking Eddie maybe enjoyed his job more that it seemed he did the caretaker role,I don’t know much about the academy set up at all really one of the things I wished hibs opened up a little more to the fans.

really need more out of East Mains youth wise really important for a club like ours hopefully we start to see something soon

[hibee-boys]

Off topic I know but whenever I see Tony Mowbray's name I can't say without breaking into "Tony Mowbray...Mark Venus" etc etc song.

Anyway, just wanted to share that thought.

[RIP]

Thanks for the responses. Some excellent points.

I made it clear that the facilities are a superb asset to the club. But given their location it is highly unlikely that Hibs will ever attract kids from Lanarkshire Ayrshire Stirling or Fife due to the huge travelling distances to Ormiston.

After McLeish and Park left Motherwell in 1998 they kept on an academy in Holytown and used that for Hibs. Mums and dads could get there from most population centres in an hour. At that point youth training was twice a week.

At East Mains training is three times a week. Few parents can support those travelling distances and public transport for the youth would take hours in each direction. My son Cammy had a trial there at age 13 but to get him there from Perth in after work rush hour 3 times per week would have been unrealistic.

There’s no doubt we’ve really missed John Park as a youth scout who had a network of contacts across youth football. He did superb work at Well with bringing through youth, then at Hibs, then Celtic.

[Since452]

East Mains isn't going to produce a conveyor belt of talent that are good enough for top level football in this country. I don't think people realise how good you have to be. Robbie Neilson said after Sundays game that his players weren't used to playing at that intensity against a top flight team and that's a team scooshing the Championship. Any academy will produce a gem or two every decade but the vast majority just won't be good enough and end up in the lower leagues or juniors. It's rare to be good enough at a young age for the Premiership. Porteous is a gem then we have Shaw, Murray and Gullane that might make it. That's decent. Don't think Hearts, Aberdeen, and the ugliies are any better than us

[Spionen]

Maybe they didn't spend enough then, as it doesn't seem to have delivered in terms of youth development.

I'd hate to be a parent of a kid coming from North Edinburgh and trying to get there for evening training.

But many of those same parents (for reasons only known to them) are happy to battle their way for hours through traffic to Lennoxtown and Murray Park instead of East Mains or Oriam!

[The Modfather]

Think the club are doing all they can. We've got elite status so meeting the top criteria

I’d be weary of using any criteria set by the dinosauric institute that is the SFA as too much of a yardstick in measuring the success of our youth set up.

[The Modfather]

[QUOTE=McKenzie;6049985]100% the quality of coaching. Oriam isn’t exactly prime location for accessing but they manage to attract vast array of talents. All about the programmes put in place within the buildings. At what point do the youth team managers and leaders come into question when we continually fail to either produce or attract the quality of player to challenge the first team.[/QUOTE

Spot on. Said it before and I'll say it again.....as long as the current folk heading up the academy are still there we wont produce anywhere near the number of youths through the ranks that we should be.

I don’t know much about the set up, but I’d love us to try and get John Collins involved in it if possible.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

Thanks for the responses. Some excellent points.

I made it clear that the facilities are a superb asset to the club. But given their location it is highly unlikely that Hibs will ever attract kids from Lanarkshire Ayrshire Stirling or Fife due to the huge travelling distances to Ormiston.

After McLeish and Park left Motherwell in 1998 they kept on an academy in Holytown and used that for Hibs. Mums and dads could get there from most population centres in an hour. At that point youth training was twice a week.

At East Mains training is three times a week. Few parents can support those travelling distances and public transport for the youth would take hours in each direction. My son Cammy had a trial there at age 13 but to get him there from Perth in after work rush hour 3 times per week would have been unrealistic.

There’s no doubt we’ve really missed John Park as a youth scout who had a network of contacts across youth football. He did superb work at Well with bringing through youth, then at Hibs, then Celtic.

Sounds like a logistical problem to me.

East Mains is a brilliant facility. Surely the cost of a few old buses to pick up kids from around the country a few nights a week would be a sensible investment.

[Brightside]

I've not seen anything at any of the youth sessions in the Oriam that would make me want to go there rather than HTC.