SFA to follow USA in banning kids from heading the ball

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51129653

This has already been implemented in the USA since 2015 and presumably has very significant implications for the future of the game if it ultimately gets adopted worldwide. Remove heading from the game and there's a massive change in the way football is played. What happens at corners and set pieces? Not to mention the way defenders and strikers are coached.

If long-term health issues are the key factor here, why limit the move only to under-12s?

[Golden Bear]

Unless all other countries adopt the same policy then we'll fall even further behind in term in terms of technique and skill.

And what about other sports like boxing and Rugby.?

Personally I think the suggestion is overkill and yet another example of nannyism.

[G B Young]

Unless all other countries adopt the same policy then we'll fall even further behind in term in terms of technique and skill.

And what about other sports like boxing and Rugby.?

Personally I think the suggestion is overkill and yet another example of nannyism.

Significant changes in the pipeline to improve rugby safety:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/international/world-rugby-rule-changes-player-safety-injuries-50-22-kick-a8832031.html

[heretoday]

The big old heavy leather balls must have damaged lots of guys right enough.
It was always raining in those days too so the ball was even heavier.
Only goalies were safe.

[Centre Hawf]

I don't see the issue. Kids skulls/brains are developing and repeatedly getting objects to bounce off them during that time seems a bit daft. If they're older and want to participate in the sport and understand the risks associated with heading then that's fine. But someone under 12 doesn't really know what risks there are.

[Ozyhibby]

I’ve no problem with this. I coach kids football and there is very little heading of the ball anyway until they get to u14’s and I know for a fact that our club do zero practising of heading so it won’t make much difference to us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

Unless all other countries adopt the same policy then we'll fall even further behind in term in terms of technique and skill.

And what about other sports like boxing and Rugby.?

Personally I think the suggestion is overkill and yet another example of nannyism.

If this is the direction of travel, maybe we’ll steal a march on the competition by being earlier than everyone else to adapt to the change?

[Sergio sledge]

The ball shouldn't be in the air at training at that age anyway, all the focus should be on developing their skills with the ball at their feet.

[jacomo]

Unless all other countries adopt the same policy then we'll fall even further behind in term in terms of technique and skill.

And what about other sports like boxing and Rugby.?

Personally I think the suggestion is overkill and yet another example of nannyism.


It’s not ‘nannyism’. It’s science.

You are hardly the first person in the world to ignore the emerging science because you don’t like what it says, but it never does humanity any good.

[Northernhibee]

Unless all other countries adopt the same policy then we'll fall even further behind in term in terms of technique and skill.


Personally I think it'll go the opposite way. Kids learning how to play the game with the ball at their feet rather than "Hoof it" at the first sign of pressing.

[Golden Bear]

The ball shouldn't be in the air at training at that age anyway, all the focus should be on developing their skills with the ball at their feet.

I agree, but I very much doubt if any official policy will stop kids from trying to emulate what they see their heroes doing on TV.

[JimboHibs]

The ball shouldn't be in the air at training at that age anyway, all the focus should be on developing their skills with the ball at their feet.

Thats not entirely correct is it ?

On that theory you are potentially ignoring a huge part of the game.Do corner kicks & possibly free kicks become irrelevant.

[Hibby Bairn]

Is there really a link between heading a football and dementia?

I thought dementia was largely a “western” disease. Most probably therefore linked to diet or similar?

I think that the countries with the highest incidence of dementia are Scandinavia, Iceland, Canada and into Holland, Belgium, UK. Do these countries head a lot of footballs?

I read somewhere that one theory was around raw sewage in some of these countries into the North Sea/North Atlantic and subsequently affecting fish and rainfall into crops. No idea of the science behind this but the facts are that the Scandinavian countries are all in the top 10. I think Finland is highest.

[Since452]

Anything that may help should be considered seriously. Horrific illness for everyone involved.

[Sergio sledge]

Thats not entirely correct is it ?

On that theory you are potentially ignoring a huge part of the game.Do corner kicks & possibly free kicks become irrelevant.

At that age no-one should be wasting time at training on corner and free kick routines anyway, whether this ban is in place or not.

Why would they become irrelevant if you aren't heading the ball in training at under 12 level?

[Haymaker]

I use foam balls to practice heading (U12 and up) with my teams, get the technique right well before they actually come in contact with a real ball to the head. Works wonders.

As for corners and throw ins, we concentrated on playing short or receiving on the chest\thigh than just banging it high into the area.

The issue I have with banning it though is simple: 99% of coaches spend their first session after the ban ends getting their teams to head a real ball. A kid I know told me she came away from her first two sessions with a headache. Probably did more damage there than had she been able to head since the beginning.

[Brightside]

Most kids already struggle to head a ball once they move up to 11s as very few coaches teach them how to do it properly. It’s a great skill and a huge part of the game.

[Keith_M]

The ball shouldn't be in the air at training at that age anyway, all the focus should be on developing their skills with the ball at their feet.


Isn't that what they do in Brazil? Futsal, I think it's called.

:dunno:

[Pretty Boy]

If it stops the Alex Ferguson in their own head types berating bairns for not 'getting it forward to the big laddie' then it's probably a good thing.

[Cataplana]

Is there really a link between heading a football and dementia?

I thought dementia was largely a “western” disease. Most probably therefore linked to diet or similar?

I think that the countries with the highest incidence of dementia are Scandinavia, Iceland, Canada and into Holland, Belgium, UK. Do these countries head a lot of footballs?

I read somewhere that one theory was around raw sewage in some of these countries into the North Sea/North Atlantic and subsequently affecting fish and rainfall into crops. No idea of the science behind this but the facts are that the Scandinavian countries are all in the top 10. I think Finland is highest.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/oct/21/landmark-study-reveals-link-between-football-dementia

No it's not just a Western disease, it is a group of degenerative diseases of the brain, which could best be described as wear and tear. The longer you live increases the chances of the brain wearing out.

As you can see from this chart: https://www.dementiastatistics.org/statistics/incidence-in-the-uk-and-globally/

As people in the West tend to live longer as a result of better nutrition and healthcare, there are more cases reported in Western Countries.

I think you should find out a bit more about it, Google is your friend.

These guys are a good place to start though: https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/

[G B Young]

I’ve no problem with this. I coach kids football and there is very little heading of the ball anyway until they get to u14’s and I know for a fact that our club do zero practising of heading so it won’t make much difference to us.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Out of interest what's the strategy with corners and free kicks at that age if heading doesn't really feature? Are they just played short? One of my kids was keen up until the age of about nine then lost interest in football, but at that age most of the coaching focus seemed to be on teaching the kids to pass the ball and play as a team. Corners, free kicks and heading the ball were never really on the agenda.

I guess if heading was eliminated from the game, the keeper's role would change significantly too with next to no high balls to gather.

[Haymaker]

Out of interest what's the strategy with corners and free kicks at that age if heading doesn't really feature? Are they just played short? One of my kids was keen up until the age of about nine then lost interest in football, but at that age most of the coaching focus seemed to be on teaching the kids to pass the ball and play as a team. Corners, free kicks and heading the ball were never really on the agenda.

I guess if heading was eliminated from the game, the keeper's role would change significantly too with next to no high balls to gather.

I get mine to play short.

I still see loads of big punts into the box by other teams.

[Greenbeard]

All these games of headers in the sheds at Leithie done for me. Back in the day I was.....I was ....erm.....a half pint of milk and an Aztec bar please.

[Since452]

All these games of headers in the sheds at Leithie done for me. Back in the day I was.....I was ....erm.....a half pint of milk and an Aztec bar please.

Quarter to six I think

[Hibby Bairn]

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/oct/21/landmark-study-reveals-link-between-football-dementia

No it's not just a Western disease, it is a group of degenerative diseases of the brain, which could best be described as wear and tear. The longer you live increases the chances of the brain wearing out.

As you can see from this chart: https://www.dementiastatistics.org/statistics/incidence-in-the-uk-and-globally/

As people in the West tend to live longer as a result of better nutrition and healthcare, there are more cases reported in Western Countries.

I think you should find out a bit more about it, Google is your friend.

These guys are a good place to start though: https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/

Thanks for that. I have googled a bit but can’t see any explanation for the cluster around Scandinavia and Benelux countries (and also Iceland, Canada and USA). These are all in the top 10. Do you know if there is an explanation for this?

[Cataplana]

Thanks for that. I have googled a bit but can’t see any explanation for the cluster around Scandinavia and Benelux countries (and also Iceland, Canada and USA). These are all in the top 10. Do you know if there is an explanation for this?

That's an interesting one, and to be honest, i have no idea. My first thought would be to look at life expectancies in those countries. Other factors may relate to how they are recorded and reported.

[Hibby Bairn]

That's an interesting one, and to be honest, i have no idea. My first thought would be to look at life expectancies in those countries. Other factors may relate to how they are recorded and reported.

You would think that the scientists and charities would be all over this. Much more of a link than heading a football I would suggest. I’ve had another look and the top 10 per head of population is:

Finland
USA
Canada
Iceland
Sweden
Switzerland
Norway
Denmark
Netherlands
Belgium

Apart from Switzerland as an outlier the rest are all geographically clustered and have large coastal boundaries.

[Greenbeard]

Quarter to six I think
Wrong. It is two shillings and thruppence Jean.

[neil7908]

This is great news. I wonder how much heading Barcelona under 12s do?

Lets get kids passing the ball and enjoying themselves.

[Vault Boy]

Good stuff. There are workable alternatives to supplement the learning of aerial technique at that age, absolutely no need to jeopardise the long term wellbeing of children.

Vast majority of them won't be playing any professional football anyway.

[Cataplana]

You would think that the scientists and charities would be all over this. Much more of a link than heading a football I would suggest. I’ve had another look and the top 10 per head of population is:

Finland
USA
Canada
Iceland
Sweden
Switzerland
Norway
Denmark
Netherlands
Belgium

Apart from Switzerland as an outlier the rest are all geographically clustered and have large coastal boundaries.

Perhaps they have been, and have decided there is no significance.

One thing that jumped out at me from one of the sources I looked at (https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-rates-of-deaths-from-dementia.html) is that deaths from dementia are being compared. The differences may be due to what is recorded on the death certificate.

Anyway, in respect of heading the ball, I think that if there is a proven increase in risk, it makes sense to pull back from kids heading the ball.

[davhibby]

Perhaps they have been, and have decided there is no significance.

One thing that jumped out at me from one of the sources I looked at (https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/countries-with-the-highest-rates-of-deaths-from-dementia.html) is that deaths from dementia are being compared. The differences may be due to what is recorded on the death certificate.

Anyway, in respect of heading the ball, I think that if there is a proven increase in risk, it makes sense to pull back from kids heading the ball.

Your point about what is being recorded is probably not far off. I’d guess that it seems to be more prevalent in western countries because that’s where people will know more about it. In less advanced countries people won’t have the same knowledge of dementia

[Carheenlea]

Where will the David Grays of tomorrow learn the beautiful art of bulleting home cup winning, Hun deflating injury time goals?

[DetroitHibs]

The games gone down hill since they outlawed proper tackling and this VAR nonsense. Take away heading or kids being taught how to head the ball and the game will just continue to decline even further.

[danhibees1875]

Where will the David Grays of tomorrow learn the beautiful art of bulleting home cup winning, Hun deflating injury time goals?

In the under 13s. :dunno:

I think it seems to be a good move. There's a link that shows footballers are X times more likely to suffer from the disease than not and I would assume the damage is more likely to be done at younger ages (guesswork) while brains and bones develop and strengthen so may as well protect them when young.

If it all fails, what's the worst that's happened? We've spent too much time focusing on passing the ball on the ground.

I find the English FA response quite strange. They're saying there isn't enough evidence to ban it yet. That sounds to me like there isn't enough evidence to not ban it either. Surely the sensible solution at that point is to ban it until there's evidence to show it isn't an issue and then reintroduce it.

[Brightside]

If they arent going to ban it its pretty silly to say no heading before 13..... 7/8 years of time where they could be coached in how to head the ball properly lost and probably end up with worse injuries due to that.

[neil7908]

If they arent going to ban it its pretty silly to say no heading before 13..... 7/8 years of time where they could be coached in how to head the ball properly lost and probably end up with worse injuries due to that.

How much heading do 10 year olds need to do? Get the ball down and focus on passing, shooting and dribbling. Heading is certainly a skill but I don't see it being a priority for kids.

[Brightside]

How much heading do 10 year olds need to do? Get the ball down and focus on passing, shooting and dribbling. Heading is certainly a skill but I don't see it being a priority for kids.

Its not a priority but us others have stated on the thread its amazing how few kids are actually coached in it at all.... same goes for throw ins etc. They are all fundamentals of football, and lack of heading skill is the reason why you see so many goals are let in from corners etc.

[DetroitHibs]

Heading is a HUGE part of the game, especially defending and being able to attack the ball. I remember as a kid not being taught and how brutal it was heading the ball with the top of your head and not the forehead. Some proper coaching goes a long way.

[Phil MaGlass]

It was bound to happen, we stopped kicking the ball years ago and moved onto kicking the man.
Seriously though, I think its a good move anything to properly protect kids is good.

[Brightside]

I assume tackling in rugby is also banned for under 12s? I have no idea tbh but it must be as even more chance of brain jolts via that.

[The Spaceman]

I assume tackling in rugby is also banned for under 12s? I have no idea tbh but it must be as even more chance of brain jolts via that.

Not if you tackle properly.

[Vault Boy]

I assume tackling in rugby is also banned for under 12s? I have no idea tbh but it must be as even more chance of brain jolts via that.

There are quite a few changes to the rules for U13s rugby in order to make it safer. Tackles are allowed, but there are more restrictions to certain types of movement and challenges. They quite often don't scrum either.

I don't see any issue whatsoever with mitigating against risk to the long-term health of children, most of whom will never become professional footballers. The evidence linking headers to brain injury is pretty conclusive.

[Brightside]

There are quite a few changes to the rules for U13s rugby in order to make it safer. Tackles are allowed, but there are more restrictions to certain types of movement and challenges. They quite often don't scrum either.

I don't see any issue whatsoever with mitigating against risk to the long-term health of children, most of whom will never become professional footballers. The evidence linking headers to brain injury is pretty conclusive.

Boxing? Re the evidence I’d like to see more detail on players from recent times.

[Vault Boy]

Boxing? Re the evidence I’d like to see more detail on players from recent times.

Boxing is an incredibly dangerous sport when done competitively. I've got no interest in it and I'm not sure what the question is.

There have been peer reviewed studies that show that heading a modern football causes short term mental impairment, including inhibiting memory performance immediately after a heading drill. The long term effects of this are pretty widely considered to be damaging by neurologists/concussion experts. There's not much debate to be had on this front.

[Cataplana]

Boxing is an incredibly dangerous sport when done competitively. I've got no interest in it and I'm not sure what the question is.

There have been peer reviewed studies that show that heading a modern footbal causes short term mental impairment, including inhibiting memory performance immediately after a heading drill. The long term effects of this are pretty widely considered to be damaging by neurologists/concussion experts. There's not much debate to be had on this front.

Maybe a bit of caution is advisable. Players that have been heading the newer, lightweight balls that came in the 90s will not be at an age where dementia will be showing itself yet.

I recently saw an article that said aluminium was definitely a cause of dementia. When I looked into it more, another says there is no proof of that, at all

However, where a reasonable doubt exists (most of the people with dementia were not professional footballers) then a bit of care with young brains can't go amiss.

[Onceinawhile]

Its not a priority but us others have stated on the thread its amazing how few kids are actually coached in it at all.... same goes for throw ins etc. They are all fundamentals of football, and lack of heading skill is the reason why you see so many goals are let in from corners etc.

Don't get throw ins until they're about 11 or 12 either.

[jacomo]

The games gone down hill since they outlawed proper tackling and this VAR nonsense. Take away heading or kids being taught how to head the ball and the game will just continue to decline even further.


Science!

I don’t have time for those who point blank refuse to accept evidence being presented by experts in this field.

[hibsbollah]

Maybe a bit of caution is advisable. Players that have been heading the newer, lightweight balls that came in the 90s will not be at an age where dementia will be showing itself yet.

I recently saw an article that said aluminium was definitely a cause of dementia. When I looked into it more, another says there is no proof of that, at all

However, where a reasonable doubt exists (most of the people with dementia were not professional footballers) then a bit of care with young brains can't go amiss.

From what I've read, the perception that new lightweight balls are 'safer' in relation to head injury is totally wrong. The old 1970s wet leather ball from my distant memory was indeed heavier, but what causes injury is the weight of impact,which can be even more severe when a lighter ball hits you at twice the speed than if a heavier ball hits you at a slower speed.

There's no alternative, when it comes to child health you have to follow the science.

[lord bunberry]

Kids at that age never head the ball anyway, corners are almost always taken short. People saying the art of heading the ball will be lost obviously don’t watch much kids football. It’s not until under 13s that it even becomes competitive. Below that age it’s all about developing skills and keeping the ball on the deck.

[Peevemor]

From what I've read, the perception that new lightweight balls are 'safer' in relation to head injury is totally wrong. The old 1970s wet leather ball from my distant memory was indeed heavier, but what causes injury is the weight of impact,which can be even more severe when a lighter ball hits you at twice the speed than if a heavier ball hits you at a slower speed.

It'll even itself out (mass x velocity).

However, with kids the problems won't come from corners or free kicks anyway - it's being under/on the receiving end of a keeper's clearance from hand where an old, wet leather ball will be far worse, given that it'll drop at the same speed as a lighter ball.


There's no alternative, when it comes to child health you have to follow the science.

:agree:

[WeeRussell]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-51129653

This has already been implemented in the USA since 2015 and presumably has very significant implications for the future of the game if it ultimately gets adopted worldwide. Remove heading from the game and there's a massive change in the way football is played. What happens at corners and set pieces? Not to mention the way defenders and strikers are coached.

If long-term health issues are the key factor here, why limit the move only to under-12s?

I have no idea, but as we get older and grow, are our heids stronger and more resistant etc?

[Cataplana]

From what I've read, the perception that new lightweight balls are 'safer' in relation to head injury is totally wrong. The old 1970s wet leather ball from my distant memory was indeed heavier, but what causes injury is the weight of impact,which can be even more severe when a lighter ball hits you at twice the speed than if a heavier ball hits you at a slower speed.

There's no alternative, when it comes to child health you have to follow the science.

My point is there is no science to suggest the newer balls cause dementia, as the cohort in question has not reached the age where signs of dementia emerge.

Likewise, the science surrounding footballers is slightly flawed in that, it would require a control, such as how many times people have headed the ball, which is pretty much impossible to measure .

For example, you would expect a higher incidence in centre halfs, compared to wingers. As far as I am aware the science does not examine that.

However, while there is a slight doubt, it makes sense for official coaches to discourage headering. What the kids do in their own time is another matter.

[lyonhibs]

Thats not entirely correct is it ?

On that theory you are potentially ignoring a huge part of the game.Do corner kicks & possibly free kicks become irrelevant.

At u12 level, pretty much. But this is not some legal ban on any kids ever heading a ball, anywhere, ever again. There will still be kids down the park with their friends and parents having a kickaround as ever they did.

Much ado about nothing. Lots of the best teams play free kicks and corners on the ground already (as much as short corners drive me mad!)

[Brightside]

Don't get throw ins until they're about 11 or 12 either.

Ive had 7/8 year olds doing throw ins for years. I couldnt care less what the SFA or ESSDA say. Kick ins from the side re the worst thing in kids football. 15 years olds getting pulled up for not being able to do a throw in is embarrassing.

[Onceinawhile]

Kids at that age never head the ball anyway, corners are almost always taken short. People saying the art of heading the ball will be lost obviously don’t watch much kids football. It’s not until under 13s that it even becomes competitive. Below that age it’s all about developing skills and keeping the ball on the deck.

Maybe in theory, but the season of 7s I've just been through saw plenty headers and lots of corners getting put into the box.

and it might be "non-competitive", but it's usually anything but.

[hibsbollah]

My point is there is no science to suggest the newer balls cause dementia, as the cohort in question has not reached the age where signs of dementia emerge.

Likewise, the science surrounding footballers is slightly flawed in that, it would require a control, such as how many times people have headed the ball, which is pretty much impossible to measure .

For example, you would expect a higher incidence in centre halfs, compared to wingers. As far as I am aware the science does not examine that.

However, while there is a slight doubt, it makes sense for official coaches to discourage headering. What the kids do in their own time is another matter.

The scientists don't need to wait for the end of a cohort of players heading newer lighter balls, for them to know that repetitive heading of those balls will cause the same incidents of brain trauma that have been seen previously. It is inevitable when you apply the basic physics that you learn at school, with the emerging knowledge of what causes brain trauma. The heaviness of the ball isnt the decisive factor.

[Cataplana]

The scientists don't need to wait for the end of a cohort of players heading newer lighter balls, for them to know that repetitive heading of those balls will cause the same incidents of brain trauma that have been seen previously. It is inevitable when you apply the basic physics that you learn at school, with the emerging knowledge of what causes brain trauma. The heaviness of the ball isnt the decisive factor.

I'd argue that the weight of the object would be a factor using a simple mass X velocity equation, to calculate the amount of energy being absorbed by the brain.

However, I am not a scientist, and it's not really relevant to this discussion .

Given the number of variables that come to play on brain function, it's not possible to say with any certainty what causes dementia. So, the science is far from exact, and brain function is much more complex than simple physics.

I don't want to go further off track, but the science is little more than a stab in the dark, when it comes to working out how to prevent these terrible conditions. The majority of dementia sufferers are women, and it's a fair bet the never headed a ball in their life.

However with young bodies, you can never be too safe. So, I'm cool with the ban.