Scotland ... Prisoner of a union.

[NAE NOOKIE]

There is a bill currently going through the lords concerning referendums relating to constitutional / Parliamentary matters. This is the main point in it:

'''In order for a referendum on any constitutional matter to receive consent it must have the support of two thirds of those MPs who vote on it and two thirds of members of the house of lords who vote on it'''

Given the demographics of the Westminster parliament and its cross party attitudes to the union if that bill is passed it will effectively cancel in perpetuity the sovereign right of the people of Scotland to ever decide for themselves if they want to leave this 'voluntary' union of nations. And it wont matter a toss if pro referendum parties hold every Scottish Westminster seat and 100% of non list seats at Holyrood.

It shouldn't matter a damn if you are a unionist or a nationalist, if you believe that there is a country called Scotland you must agree that the people who live in it and claim it as their 'country' have the absolute and inalienable right to decide on its status and future and the choice of when and how to do that. If you allow that right to be removed and effectively ... indisputably .... placed in the hands of another country, which the passing of this bill will do, no ifs, no buts, then how the hell in all good conscience can you with a straight face claim that there is such a country as Scotland and you belong to it?

Scotlandshire ... pure and simple.

[Cataplana]

There is a bill currently going through the lords concerning referendums relating to constitutional / Parliamentary matters. This is the main point in it:

'''In order for a referendum on any constitutional matter to receive consent it must have the support of two thirds of those MPs who vote on it and two thirds of members of the house of lords who vote on it'''

Given the demographics of the Westminster parliament and its cross party attitudes to the union if that bill is passed it will effectively cancel in perpetuity the sovereign right of the people of Scotland to ever decide for themselves if they want to leave this 'voluntary' union of nations. And it wont matter a toss if pro referendum parties hold every Scottish Westminster seat and 100% of non list seats at Holyrood.

It shouldn't matter a damn if you are a unionist or a nationalist, if you believe that there is a country called Scotland you must agree that the people who live in it and claim it as their 'country' have the absolute and inalienable right to decide on its status and future and the choice of when and how to do that. If you allow that right to be removed and effectively ... indisputably .... placed in the hands of another country, which the passing of this bill will do, no ifs, no buts, then how the hell in all good conscience can you with a straight face claim that there is such a country as Scotland and you belong to it?

Scotlandshire ... pure and simple.

I'm sure that the English would love to remove the "millstone round their neck that they have to pay money to support." Don't be too pessimist, cutting us loose may be a vote winner.

[JeMeSouviens]

There is a bill currently going through the lords concerning referendums relating to constitutional / Parliamentary matters. This is the main point in it:

'''In order for a referendum on any constitutional matter to receive consent it must have the support of two thirds of those MPs who vote on it and two thirds of members of the house of lords who vote on it'''

Given the demographics of the Westminster parliament and its cross party attitudes to the union if that bill is passed it will effectively cancel in perpetuity the sovereign right of the people of Scotland to ever decide for themselves if they want to leave this 'voluntary' union of nations. And it wont matter a toss if pro referendum parties hold every Scottish Westminster seat and 100% of non list seats at Holyrood.

It shouldn't matter a damn if you are a unionist or a nationalist, if you believe that there is a country called Scotland you must agree that the people who live in it and claim it as their 'country' have the absolute and inalienable right to decide on its status and future and the choice of when and how to do that. If you allow that right to be removed and effectively ... indisputably .... placed in the hands of another country, which the passing of this bill will do, no ifs, no buts, then how the hell in all good conscience can you with a straight face claim that there is such a country as Scotland and you belong to it?

Scotlandshire ... pure and simple.

The S30 order for indyref1 was passed unanimously in both houses at westminster. However, I do take your point. It doesn't really sit well with the claim of right that a ref can be vetoed at all, really.

[Hibrandenburg]

There is a bill currently going through the lords concerning referendums relating to constitutional / Parliamentary matters. This is the main point in it:

'''In order for a referendum on any constitutional matter to receive consent it must have the support of two thirds of those MPs who vote on it and two thirds of members of the house of lords who vote on it'''

Given the demographics of the Westminster parliament and its cross party attitudes to the union if that bill is passed it will effectively cancel in perpetuity the sovereign right of the people of Scotland to ever decide for themselves if they want to leave this 'voluntary' union of nations. And it wont matter a toss if pro referendum parties hold every Scottish Westminster seat and 100% of non list seats at Holyrood.

It shouldn't matter a damn if you are a unionist or a nationalist, if you believe that there is a country called Scotland you must agree that the people who live in it and claim it as their 'country' have the absolute and inalienable right to decide on its status and future and the choice of when and how to do that. If you allow that right to be removed and effectively ... indisputably .... placed in the hands of another country, which the passing of this bill will do, no ifs, no buts, then how the hell in all good conscience can you with a straight face claim that there is such a country as Scotland and you belong to it?

Scotlandshire ... pure and simple.

That would definitely lead to a violent struggle at some point. The only thing stopping that just now is the realistic democratic possibility to gain independence, if that was taken away it would be game on for extremists.

[lapsedhibee]

That would definitely lead to a violent struggle at some point. The only thing stopping that just now is the realistic democratic possibility to gain independence, if that was taken away it would be game on for extremists.

:agree: This could all develop very badly indeed. Wonder if Johnson has even the remotest conception of the possible implications of his current stance, or if he's just parroting his Master's voice.

[Ozyhibby]

That would definitely lead to a violent struggle at some point. The only thing stopping that just now is the realistic democratic possibility to gain independence, if that was taken away it would be game on for extremists.

That’s the biggest worry and I wonder if it’s the unionist plan?


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[Hibrandenburg]

:agree: This could all develop very badly indeed. Wonder if Johnson has even the remotest conception of the possible implications of his current stance, or if he's just parroting his Master's voice.

Can't see it happening though. It would set alarms off on a cross party basis.

[Hibrandenburg]

That’s the biggest worry and I wonder if it’s the unionist plan?


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It would be utter madness, if their plan is to ignite a new civil war then that would be the way to go.

[NAE NOOKIE]

There's been a few replies which echo my own thoughts on this subject.

Notwithstanding Johnson's dismissal of the SNP's mandate handed to it under the system which he, his party and every other party in the UK is elected by, it also seems that the Tories under his leadership and with the tacit support of other parties seem determined to make it impossible for the people of Scotland to ever break away from this union ... even if the vast majority of us wanted to, even if the polls showed 99% support for it. Not even refusing independence, but even simply an independence referendum.

If the ability ( not to mention the right ) to choose, is made subject to and reliant on the overwhelming support of a UK parliament almost exclusively populated by pro union MPs from countries outwith Scotland and a house of lords, which by its very nature since time immemorial has supported the status quo and the establishment, then what he is doing is nothing more than subjugating the will of the Scottish people and their right to determine their own path to the will of countries other than Scotland itself under the guise of 'the UK'. There is absolutely no other conclusion to be drawn from the nature of that bill, its intention is abundantly clear.

If this bill is passed, then as I said in my original post it wouldn't matter what the people of Scotland voted for, even if that vote in UK and Scottish parliamentary elections was 100% for a party or parties in favour of not even independence but simply the Scottish peoples right to make the decision. If that comes to pass I doubt many people will be impressed by utterances from Westminster or the UK establishment that the criteria for a referendum being granted created by that bill isn't 100% impossible to achieve ... because the truth would be that it would take a political miracle for a Scottish independence referendum bill to make it through the commons and the house of lords, no matter what the people of Scotland have voted for. They know it and that is exactly what this bill is designed to achieve.

That would .... that will ..... make the opinion of the actual people of Scotland regarding what they want their country to be absolutely immaterial, utterly null and void ... of no consequence whatsoever. If you actually believe that Scotland is a country then for you such a state of affairs can only be viewed as intolerable because it does nothing more, nothing less, than relegate Scotland to a 'region' of the UK or more accurately the biggest county of England masquerading as something called Great Britain, with no more say or right to a say over our future than the people of Yorkshire, Essex, Cornwall, or any other British ... lets call a spade a spade, English ... county.

If you deny people democracy ... even if you cynically manipulate democracy to do it ... then where do they turn? You don't have to be a f'kng genius to work out the answer to that question. If the stupidity and arrogance of the people currently in charge makes them ignore that simple but fundamental truth then hell mend them.

Have the British establishment learnt nothing from the bitter lesson of Ireland ... SEW THE WIND.

[lapsedhibee]

SEW THE WIND
That's not going to work. Suggest instead sticking the needles in to effigies of Johnson. Agree with the rest though.

[makaveli1875]

We're not a prisoner of anything, we had a referendum quite recently on leaving the UK and I'm sure there will be another in 4 or 5 years time to look forward to
Dry your pants and get ready for it

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/why-tories-madrid-style-stance-on-indyref2-will-backfire-on-unionists-kenny-macaskill-1-5075141/amp?__twitter_impression=true


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[Ozyhibby]

We're not a prisoner of anything, we had a referendum quite recently on leaving the UK and I'm sure there will be another in 4 or 5 years time to look forward to
Dry your pants and get ready for it

And what is the democratic process for triggering it?


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[makaveli1875]

And what is the democratic process for triggering it?


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Same as last time I'd guess

[Ozyhibby]

Same as last time I'd guess

Which is?


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[Ozyhibby]

If I was the Heading the Yes campaign I would be expanding the brand into a pro democracy (because who’s not in favour of democracy?) movement now.


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[Renfrew_Hibby]

Which is?


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Exactly! There is no democratic process.
No written constitution, unelected upper chambers and a farcical royal situation means Great Britain is a joke of a nation really.

[Bristolhibby]

Which is?


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I’m sure Johnson will be along in a minute to clarify exactly how long a “generation” is. Just so I can get it in my diary.

J

[lyonhibs]

Same as last time I'd guess

You've not been paying attention have you?

[Future17]

We're not a prisoner of anything, we had a referendum quite recently on leaving the UK and I'm sure there will be another in 4 or 5 years time to look forward to
Dry your pants and get ready for it

I understand "prisoner" may seem hyperbolic, but if a Government denies a democratic right AND refuses to state how that right may be achieved in the future, I find the language hard to argue with.

[makaveli1875]

I understand "prisoner" may seem hyperbolic, but if a Government denies a democratic right AND refuses to state how that right may be achieved in the future, I find the language hard to argue with.

If enough people in Scotland want it then it will happen, nobody's a prisoner.

[Ozyhibby]

If enough people in Scotland want it then it will happen, nobody's a prisoner.

How would it happen?


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[makaveli1875]

How would it happen?


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By answering a yes/no question presumably

[Ozyhibby]

By answering a yes/no question presumably

The unionists won’t allow it. They have suspended democracy.


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[Future17]

By answering a yes/no question presumably

Ah, sorry. I thought you genuinely wanted to discuss the point you made. :rolleyes:

[Killiehibbie]

There's been a few replies which echo my own thoughts on this subject.

Notwithstanding Johnson's dismissal of the SNP's mandate handed to it under the system which he, his party and every other party in the UK is elected by, it also seems that the Tories under his leadership and with the tacit support of other parties seem determined to make it impossible for the people of Scotland to ever break away from this union ... even if the vast majority of us wanted to, even if the polls showed 99% support for it. Not even refusing independence, but even simply an independence referendum.

If the ability ( not to mention the right ) to choose, is made subject to and reliant on the overwhelming support of a UK parliament almost exclusively populated by pro union MPs from countries outwith Scotland and a house of lords, which by its very nature since time immemorial has supported the status quo and the establishment, then what he is doing is nothing more than subjugating the will of the Scottish people and their right to determine their own path to the will of countries other than Scotland itself under the guise of 'the UK'. There is absolutely no other conclusion to be drawn from the nature of that bill, its intention is abundantly clear.

If this bill is passed, then as I said in my original post it wouldn't matter what the people of Scotland voted for, even if that vote in UK and Scottish parliamentary elections was 100% for a party or parties in favour of not even independence but simply the Scottish peoples right to make the decision. If that comes to pass I doubt many people will be impressed by utterances from Westminster or the UK establishment that the criteria for a referendum being granted created by that bill isn't 100% impossible to achieve ... because the truth would be that it would take a political miracle for a Scottish independence referendum bill to make it through the commons and the house of lords, no matter what the people of Scotland have voted for. They know it and that is exactly what this bill is designed to achieve.

That would .... that will ..... make the opinion of the actual people of Scotland regarding what they want their country to be absolutely immaterial, utterly null and void ... of no consequence whatsoever. If you actually believe that Scotland is a country then for you such a state of affairs can only be viewed as intolerable because it does nothing more, nothing less, than relegate Scotland to a 'region' of the UK or more accurately the biggest county of England masquerading as something called Great Britain, with no more say or right to a say over our future than the people of Yorkshire, Essex, Cornwall, or any other British ... lets call a spade a spade, English ... county.

If you deny people democracy ... even if you cynically manipulate democracy to do it ... then where do they turn? You don't have to be a f'kng genius to work out the answer to that question. If the stupidity and arrogance of the people currently in charge makes them ignore that simple but fundamental truth then hell mend them.

Have the British establishment learnt nothing from the bitter lesson of Ireland ... SEW THE WIND.

I thought we'd been there for quite a while.

[NAE NOOKIE]

If enough people in Scotland want it then it will happen, nobody's a prisoner.


By answering a yes/no question presumably

"Nobody's a prisoner" ... Oh really?

There are 650 UK MPs in parliament of which 59 represent Scottish seats. Even if every Scottish seat was in the hands of the SNP, under this legislation 374 MPs from elsewhere in the UK would have to join those 59 in order to win a Scottish independence referendum vote.

Even if every MP from Wales and Ireland abstained you would still need 335 English MPs to support the 59 SNP MPs.

You pop down to the bookies mate and see what odds they would give you on a bill asking for an independence referendum getting through both the commons and the lords with that level of support required .... you would get closer odds on a double of Hibs winning the Champions league and Scotland the world cup within the next 10 years.

And I haven't even mentioned that if by some miracle ... and lets face it, it would be an honest to God miracle ... the legislation allowing a referendum did pass, that same bill will impose a 60/40 margin on a YES vote before it was accepted as a vote for independence by the UK parliament.

We aren't even talking about Westminster putting a bar on independence, we are talking about Westminster effectively preventing the people of Scotland from ever having the chance ( or the choice ) to vote on it again.

In all honesty, in spite of the fact that the source I was made aware of this bill from seems to be reliable, I'm still not convinced it isn't a joke or some sort of early April fools day prank. Because if it isn't and it gets passed into law IMO it's nothing short of colonialism minus the tanks and guns and once folk become aware of it ( I've never seen it mentioned anywhere in the media ) the backlash will be biblical.

[weecounty hibby]

"Nobody's a prisoner" ... Oh really?

There are 650 UK MPs in parliament of which 59 represent Scottish seats. Even if every Scottish seat was in the hands of the SNP, under this legislation 374 MPs from elsewhere in the UK would have to join those 59 in order to win a Scottish independence referendum vote.

Even if every MP from Wales and Ireland abstained you would still need 335 English MPs to support the 59 SNP MPs.

You pop down to the bookies mate and see what odds they would give you on a bill asking for an independence referendum getting through both the commons and the lords with that level of support required .... you would get closer odds on a double of Hibs winning the Champions league and Scotland the world cup within the next 10 years.

And I haven't even mentioned that if by some miracle ... and lets face it, it would be an honest to God miracle ... the legislation allowing a referendum did pass, that same bill will impose a 60/40 margin on a YES vote before it was accepted as a vote for independence by the UK parliament.

We aren't even talking about Westminster putting a bar on independence, we are talking about Westminster effectively preventing the people of Scotland from ever having the chance ( or the choice ) to vote on it again.

In all honesty, in spite of the fact that the source I was made aware of this bill from seems to be reliable, I'm still not convinced it isn't a joke or some sort of early April fools day prank. Because if it isn't and it gets passed into law IMO it's nothing short of colonialism minus the tanks and guns and once folk become aware of it ( I've never seen it mentioned anywhere in the media ) the backlash will be biblical.
You put this so well and better than I could. You are spot on and anyone living in Scotland, whether hereditary or through choice should read what you say. We are in danger of having our rights, our choices, our opportunity to decide for ourselves what we want for the country we live in decided for us more and more by people who don't live here. I say it time after time but we need to get off our knees and take our country back into the hands of those who want the best for her. And that is the people who live here

[NAE NOOKIE]

You put this so well and better than I could. You are spot on and anyone living in Scotland, whether hereditary or through choice should read what you say. We are in danger of having our rights, our choices, our opportunity to decide for ourselves what we want for the country we live in decided for us more and more by people who don't live here. I say it time after time but we need to get off our knees and take our country back into the hands of those who want the best for her. And that is the people who live here

The National ( for the uninitiated that's about the only paper in Scotland that isn't editorially controlled by Tories or unionists ) has thrown more light on this. It transpires the bill in question is a private member's bill originating from the house of lords under the name of 'Lord Patrick Cormack' ... as such fortunately it has little chance of making it through the commons, though that's more down to technicalities than sanity. Cormack was chairman of the commons Irish affairs committee for 5 years when an MP and apparently he claims to be somewhat of a historian.

You would think with a CV like that he would be the last person on earth to think an idea like the one he has just proposed wouldn't be an utterly terrible one. Either that or he enjoyed recent Irish history and being involved in it so much he thinks it would be a simply spiffing idea to recreate it in Scotto Jocko land.

If that's the quality of thinking in our undemocratic, unelected, throwback to feudal medievalism second chamber, never mind the fact that basic democracy should preclude it from existing, stupid and dangerous crap like this should put the tin lid on it anyway.

[Steven79]

If anybody is free on the 1st of Feb before the St Mirren then feel free to join us at the Scottish Parliament.

https://www.facebook.com/events/1472387349592630/

[Hibrandenburg]

Rabbie might have been onto something. Replace race with parliament and it's aged well:

Written on a windowsill in Stirling.

Here Stuarts once in glory reigned,
And laws for Scotland's weal ordained;
But now unroof'd their palace stands,
Their sceptre's sway'd by other hands;
Fallen indeed, and to the earth
Whence groveling reptiles take their birth.
The injured Stuart line is gone,
A race outlandish fills their throne;
An idiot race, to honour lost;
Who know them best despise them most.

[HiBremian]

Rabbie might have been onto something. Replace race with parliament and it's aged well:

Written on a windowsill in Stirling.

Here Stuarts once in glory reigned,
And laws for Scotland's weal ordained;
But now unroof'd their palace stands,
Their sceptre's sway'd by other hands;
Fallen indeed, and to the earth
Whence groveling reptiles take their birth.
The injured Stuart line is gone,
A race outlandish fills their throne;
An idiot race, to honour lost;
Who know them best despise them most.Big night here in Bremen with the Bremen Scotch Club. In between the free at point of use, and damn good, whisky a lot of understanding of the Burns message for today's UK. Tae a Haggis in German is actually quite moving :-)

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