Another grooming gang uncovered.

[Andy Bee]

Sadly they were first brought to light in 2004 in Manchester but Police shelved the case because apparently they lacked the resources, there's some serious answers needed from all the services of the time including social services. Predominantly men of Pakistani descent again, yes Asian but predominantly Pakistani not Chinese, not Indian, not Burmese, not Korean this is a cultural thing in which some Pakistani males feel they have the right to systematically abuse young white female kids and it needs to stop, that's Telford, Rochdale, Oxford, Huddersfield, Rotherham and god knows where else. I listened to the grandmother of one of their victims and it was heartbreaking, she spoke of putting her grandaughter in a warm bath frequently to try and soothe her bruising, she reported the abuse to the police numerous times to no avail, unfortunately the 15yr old after years of sexual abuse was injected with a lethal dose of heroin by one of her abusers. 97 people reported and not one has been convicted although I stand to be corrected.

Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?

[Moulin Yarns]

Are you sure it's being swept under the carpet?

I don't think it has anything to do with political correctness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51052076

[Cataplana]

What distressed me the most was that the original investigation was shelved due to "resourcing", suggesting GMP had bigger priorities than children being sexually exploited.

They must have thought people were more concerned about burglary, than children in care being abused.

The fact that the grooming ring was South Asian men has to have some significance too. We have had similar reports from places like Rochdale and Govanhill, and in many ways ethnicity is the elephant in the room.

My concern is that all focus goes on people from that background and that others escape under that smokescreen. However, we know from Rochdale that political correctness was part of the problem.

[Slavers]

Are you sure it's being swept under the carpet?

I don't think it has anything to do with political correctness.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-51052076

Can you please explain how your post & link relates to the OP? I'm trying to see the connection or how it is in anyway relevant to the thread but i can't make any connection.

[Moulin Yarns]

Can you please explain how your post & link relates to the OP? I'm trying to see the connection or how it is in anyway relevant to the thread but i can't make any connection.

Grooming of young girls?

[Slavers]

Grooming of young girls?

There is evidence of police and social services not acting on reports of abuse, that is the definition of sweeping it under the carpet.

There is also evidence that the police were told to investigate other ethnicities which leads to the accusations of political correctness hampering investigations.

I just do not see how your post or link is anyway connected to the OP as it's far removed from the topic being discussed.

[EH6 Hibby]

What distressed me the most was that the original investigation was shelved due to "resourcing", suggesting GMP had bigger priorities than children being sexually exploited.

They must have thought people were more concerned about burglary, than children in care being abused.

The fact that the grooming ring was South Asian men has to have some significance too. We have had similar reports from places like Rochdale and Govanhill, and in many ways ethnicity is the elephant in the room.

My concern is that all focus goes on people from that background and that others escape under that smokescreen. However, we know from Rochdale that political correctness was part of the problem.

I think even just 10/15 years ago there was a lack of understanding of the grooming process these girls were subjected to, and it was seen as though the girls were willing participants in what was happening. That’s my understanding of what happened in Rochdale anyway.

[Cataplana]

I think even just 10/15 years ago there was a lack of understanding of the grooming process these girls were subjected to, and it was seen as though the girls were willing participants in what was happening. That’s my understanding of what happened in Rochdale anyway.

I remember the local MP on Newsnight explaining exactly what was going on, and saying that nobody was listening. Whether they are willing participants, or not, the law was broken.

I can't accept that people were so naive as to deny the existence of paedophile rings, especially in the town where Cyril Smith used to be in charge.

It seems to me that a combination of contempt for the victims and their backgrounds, and a fear of going after influential people, combined to perpetuate this cycle.

15 years ago is not a long time, and for policemen to be saying the didn't understand until Saville is bollocks. Vulnerable kids in care have always been a target of nonces and it wouldn't have taken much to get to the bottom of things.

As a society, it is now our job to take those responsible to task.

[heretoday]

Pakistani guys again? Blimey, what's up with these blokes?

[Renfrew_Hibby]

Pakistani guys again? Blimey, what's up with these blokes?

Clearly a racist as well as a cultural thing going on here.
Its always vulnerable young white girls/women. Never any from their own ethnic group or community.

[Moulin Yarns]

Not JUST Pakistani perpetrators, and not just white victims

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-uk-britain-newcastle-serious-case-review-operation-sanctuary-shelter-muslim-asian-a8225106.html

(https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/grooming-gangs-uk-britain-newcastle-serious-case-review-operation-sanctuary-shelter-muslim-asian-a8225106.html)

Of eight victims covered in the trials, six were white and two were of African heritage, while the perpetrators came from a diverse range of backgrounds including Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Iranian, Iraqi, Kurdish, Turkish, Albanian and Eastern European.

Where is the evidence?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/11/84-per-cent-of-grooming-gangs-are-asians-we-dont-know-if-that-figure-is-right

[Cataplana]

Clearly a racist as well as a cultural thing going on here.
Its always vulnerable young white girls/women. Never any from their own ethnic group or community.

Was the case in Govanhill, where Roma families were prostituting children to predominantly people of Pakistani ethnicity. The entire extent of it has not come out, but workers on the frontline in areas such as social services and mental health have been raising concern for years.

Let's not blame all abuse on Pakistani grooming rings, but let's not deny the experience of their victims, as many still seem prepared to do.

[lord bunberry]

Clearly a racist as well as a cultural thing going on here.
Its always vulnerable young white girls/women. Never any from their own ethnic group or community.
:agree: And one of the problems is that people are to afraid to call it what it is. It doesn’t make you a racist to present the facts in these cases and when people don’t it’s left to idiots like Tommy Robinson to stoke up hatred and division.

[TheHibernator]

:agree: And one of the problems is that people are to afraid to call it what it is. It doesn’t make you a racist to present the facts in these cases and when people don’t it’s left to idiots like Tommy Robinson to stoke up hatred and division.

Bang on. The percentage of Pakistani men committing these crimes in relation to the total percentage of Pakistani men in the country is completely disproportionate, which tells us it's clearly a cultural problem, there is nothing racist about using statistics to come to a conclusion.

Too many people afraid of appearing racist so in turn ignore the evidence on show and like you say, the only people willing to call it out are known far-right activists like Robinson, all that does is make the problem even worse as people don't want to be associated with him or share his views.

[Moulin Yarns]

Bang on. The percentage of Pakistani men committing these crimes in relation to the total percentage of Pakistani men in the country is completely disproportionate, which tells us it's clearly a cultural problem, there is nothing racist about using statistics to come to a conclusion.

Too many people afraid of appearing racist so in turn ignore the evidence on show and like you say, the only people willing to call it out are known far-right activists like Robinson, all that does is make the problem even worse as people don't want to be associated with him or share his views.


Where is the evidence to support this?


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/11/84-per-cent-of-grooming-gangs-are-asians-we-dont-know-if-that-figure-is-right

[lord bunberry]

Where is the evidence to support this?


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/11/84-per-cent-of-grooming-gangs-are-asians-we-dont-know-if-that-figure-is-right
I know you weren’t replying to me and I’ve no idea if the claim is correct. I think the fact that every time one of these stories hits the headlines it always seems to be the same circumstances. There is a problem amongst a small number of men from that community, a fact that is recognised by prominent people in their community. The problem is that we have politicians tip toeing around it saying it doesn’t matter what their ethnicity is and we should be focusing on the appalling crimes they’ve committed. That would be fine if this was an isolated incident, but it isn’t. As well as the appalling crimes being committed by these men there’s also a racial aspect to it and that should be called out as well.

[Cataplana]

I know you weren’t replying to me and I’ve no idea if the claim is correct. I think the fact that every time one of these stories hits the headlines it always seems to be the same circumstances. There is a problem amongst a small number of men from that community, a fact that is recognised by prominent people in their community. The problem is that we have politicians tip toeing around it saying it doesn’t matter what their ethnicity is and we should be focusing on the appalling crimes they’ve committed. That would be fine if this was an isolated incident, but it isn’t. As well as the appalling crimes being committed by these men there’s also a racial aspect to it and that should be called out as well.

Many people say Pakistan has a real problem with misogyny to start with. What is important though, is that we acknowledge the racial element in these grooming gangs, and try to work out if it is a factor in the Establishment being shy to prosecute.

Rape, and grooming are wrong, and we need to know why the were prepared to turn a blind eye to wrongdoing.

[TheHibernator]

Where is the evidence to support this?


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/11/84-per-cent-of-grooming-gangs-are-asians-we-dont-know-if-that-figure-is-right

Not been on this thread in a while:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-50838823

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/police-chief-we-ignored-sex-abuse-of-children-hgrhc358v

http://theconversation.com/asian-grooming-gangs-how-ethnicity-made-authorities-wary-of-investigating-child-sexual-abuse-130099

Also plenty of in-article links for your interest

I've no idea if 84% is a correct figure, however, if you can't see there's a link between Pakistani men and grooming gangs then you need to get out from under that rock you've been living under.

[Cataplana]

[QUOTE=Moulin Yarns;6044026]Not JUST Pakistani perpetrators, and not just white victims

The article in the Guardian does not dispute that a disproportionate number of crimes are committed by Pakistanis. What it points out is that there is no evidence to support cultural reasons for their behaviour.

[Slavers]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5215881/police-scotland-glasgow-grooming-gang-secret/

A grooming gang in Glasgow caught but was kept quiet from the public.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5215881/police-scotland-glasgow-grooming-gang-secret/

A grooming gang in Glasgow caught but was kept quiet from the public.

That can't be right, not all of them were Pakistani. :rolleyes:

[Slavers]

That can't be right, not all of them were Pakistani. :rolleyes:

Not sure what point you are making?

[Moulin Yarns]

Not sure what point you are making?

The OP clearly blamed Pakistani for Grooming gangs.

[TheHibernator]

The OP clearly blamed Pakistani for Grooming gangs.

Obviously it's not going to be exclusively Pakistani's, but they do make up a very disproportionate amount of grooming gangs

[JeMeSouviens]

Is there any difference between "grooming gangs" of Pakistani ethnicity and Prince Andrew's pals, Epstein, Maxwell etc. or the Ulster rugby players or (allegedly) Kobe Bryant? They exploit young women they perceive to be of no worth to them other than as sexual objects. They should all be dealt with with the full force of the law. Misogyny is not a characteristic that can be assigned to one race more than another.

Cover ups and transparency are obviously a different but related matter and if lessons from Rochdale weren't learned then they ****** well should be.

[Moulin Yarns]

Obviously it's not going to be exclusively Pakistani's, but they do make up a very disproportionate amount of grooming gangs

I'll tell you what is worrying me. The way every male of Pakistan origin is being tarred with the same brush. How long before there is a vigilante group set up targeting Pakistani men?

Grooming is something that happens in every community, it could even be your neighbours. So this whole "predominantly Pakistani men" is a smoke screen IMO.

[lord bunberry]

I'll tell you what is worrying me. The way every male of Pakistan origin is being tarred with the same brush. How long before there is a vigilante group set up targeting Pakistani men?

Grooming is something that happens in every community, it could even be your neighbours. So this whole "predominantly Pakistani men" is a smoke screen IMO.
I don’t think every male of Pakistani origin is being tarred with the same brush. There will always be a racist element that will, but no one is taking them seriously. The failure to realise there is a problem amongst a minority of young Pakistani males is what leads to the perpetrators getting away with it for longer than they should. People are afraid of being accused of racism, but when you have community leaders saying there’s a problem then it needs to be tackled head on.

[Andy Bee]

The OP clearly blamed Pakistani for Grooming gangs.


No I never, what I said was "Predominantly men of Pakistani descent", which is factually correct whichever way you want to dress it up. There's a discussion to be had here but if you keep dismissing the facts then this will only detract from that. I'm actually really trying to choose my words very carefully and I shouldn't have to. I know I'm not a racist but I'm starting to feel a very slight hint in your posts of you suggesting that I and anyone else who sees the pattern here are, that is exactly why the Police and services didn't do their job properly in the first place.

[lord bunberry]

No I never, what I said was "Predominantly men of Pakistani descent", which is factually correct whichever way you want to dress it up. There's a discussion to be had here but if you keep dismissing the facts then this will only detract from that. I'm actually really trying to choose my words very carefully and I shouldn't have to. I know I'm not a racist but I'm starting to feel a very slight hint in your posts of you suggesting that I and anyone else who sees the pattern here are, that is exactly why the Police and services didn't do their job properly in the first place.
You’re absolutely spot on with that Andy, and that’s why this thread has had so few replies, people are afraid to say what they think for being accused of being racists. I’m not a racist and I don’t think you are, in fact I hate racism in any form. There’s an issue here that needs to be addressed and pretending it doesn’t exist only makes it worse.

[JeMeSouviens]

You’re absolutely spot on with that Andy, and that’s why this thread has had so few replies, people are afraid to say what they think for being accused of being racists. I’m not a racist and I don’t think you are, in fact I hate racism in any form. There’s an issue here that needs to be addressed and pretending it doesn’t exist only makes it worse.

The problem is that these horrendous crimes absolutely have been used as a strategic rallying point by racists who want to use them to engender a reactionary hatred of Pakistanis and eventually to introduce a twisted agenda of racial purity. Therefore when they're brought up here there is always going to be at least an initial wariness as to why?

The other reason for few replies is that there's, on the face of it, very little to discuss. Everybody would agree there should be no reluctance to investigate and no reluctance to hammer anyone found guilty.

[lord bunberry]

The problem is that these horrendous crimes absolutely have been used as a strategic rallying point by racists who want to use them to engender a reactionary hatred of Pakistanis and eventually to introduce a twisted agenda of racial purity. Therefore when they're brought up here there is always going to be at least an initial wariness as to why?

The other reason for few replies is that there's, on the face of it, very little to discuss. Everybody would agree there should be no reluctance to investigate and no reluctance to hammer anyone found guilty.
I agree completely with your first paragraph, there will always be people who will try and twist things to suit their own racist agenda. I’d like to think that the vast majority of people would ignore these idiots.

[TheHibernator]

I'll tell you what is worrying me. The way every male of Pakistan origin is being tarred with the same brush. How long before there is a vigilante group set up targeting Pakistani men?

Grooming is something that happens in every community, it could even be your neighbours. So this whole "predominantly Pakistani men" is a smoke screen IMO.

You can dismiss the facts and deflect all you want, but it's the kind of attitude that only adds to the problem.

I said Pakistani men make up a disproportionate amount of grooming gangs in this country, how can you disagree with that?

[TheHibernator]

No I never, what I said was "Predominantly men of Pakistani descent", which is factually correct whichever way you want to dress it up. There's a discussion to be had here but if you keep dismissing the facts then this will only detract from that. I'm actually really trying to choose my words very carefully and I shouldn't have to. I know I'm not a racist but I'm starting to feel a very slight hint in your posts of you suggesting that I and anyone else who sees the pattern here are, that is exactly why the Police and services didn't do their job properly in the first place.

Bang on.

[Smartie]

You can dismiss the facts and deflect all you want, but it's the kind of attitude that only adds to the problem.

I said Pakistani men make up a disproportionate amount of grooming gangs in this country, how can you disagree with that?

Do we have statistics or figures upon which to base our opinions regarding “grooming gangs”?

I don’t even really know what a grooming gang is.

Given the majority of the noise on this subject seems to come from the likes of Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins and the right wing gutter press rather than anyone remotely credible, I can’t pretend to hold an opinion either way.

I hope that anyone who commits any offence is caught and convicted as is appropriate.

[Cataplana]

The OP clearly blamed Pakistani for Grooming gangs.

Nonsense, it's almost as if you are trying to deflect from the real points being made here.

For me, the word "predominantly" in the origin post is very important. You appear to be blind to that.


Do we have statistics or figures upon which to base our opinions regarding “grooming gangs”?

I don’t even really know what a grooming gang is.

Given the majority of the noise on this subject seems to come from the likes of Tommy Robinson and Katie Hopkins and the right wing gutter press rather than anyone remotely credible, I can’t pretend to hold an opinion either way.

I hope that anyone who commits any offence is caught and convicted as is appropriate.

I don't think that's entirely fair. Coverage I have seen has involved a wide range of people. I am sure the two people you mention will make capital out of it, but that doesn't make the basic facts any different.

Not to admit to a pattern of this particular form of abuse is only playing into their hands. What is wrong is to say it is the only form of abuse, or that all Pakistani men are abusers.

It's the same thing as saying all Catholic men are abusers, because a small amount of priests were abusing children.

[Smartie]

Nonsense, it's almost as if you are trying to deflect from the real points being made here.

For me, the word "predominantly" in the origin post is very important. You appear to be blind to that.



I don't think that's entirely fair. Coverage I have seen has involved a wide range of people. I am sure the two people you mention will make capital out of it, but that doesn't make the basic facts any different.

Not to admit to a pattern of this particular form of abuse is only playing into their hands. What is wrong is to say it is the only form of abuse, or that all Pakistani men are abusers.

It's the same thing as saying all Catholic men are abusers, because a small amount of priests were abusing children.

Nothing, if that indeed is the case.

Are we talking about men specifically from the nation for Pakistan here? Is there something about men who are from that one one country who commit offences like this?

Or are we talking about muslims in general?

Either generalisation is acceptable if it has some foundation in truth.

Or are we just talking about brown-skinned people that we don't like very much and would like to chuck as much dirt as possible at, a bit like the way "paedo" has become a common playground insult in football grounds?

I have no more desire than anyone to see anyone who exploits children in a sexual way go unpunished, whether that is because they cannot be properly investigated due to police political correctness or because they're being sheltered by the Catholic Church or the royal family.

My work has taken me into contact with many Asian people, may people from Pakistan and many muslims. Purely in my experience I am at a loss to explain why these offences happen or that there may be a cultural issue. The most I hear about it is on the likes of Facebook from racist nuggets sharing stuff from the likes of Robinson and Hopkins. I'm not saying there isn't a problem or can't be one, but simply that I've not been overly impressed by the sources putting forward the argument so far.

[Cataplana]

Nothing, if that indeed is the case.

Are we talking about men specifically form the nation for Pakistan here? Is there something about men who are from that one one country who commit offences like this?

Or are we talking about muslims in general?

Either generalisation is acceptable if it has some foundation in truth.

Or are we just talking about brown-skinned people that we don't like very much and would like to chuck as much dirt as possible at, a bit like the way "paedo" has become a common playground insult in football grounds?

I have no more desire than anyone to see anyone who exploits children in a sexual way go unpunished, whether that is because they cannot be properly investigated due to police political correctness or because they're being sheltered by the Catholic Church or the royal family.

My work has taken me into contact with many Asian people, may people from Pakistan and many muslims. Purely in my experience I am at a loss to explain why these offences happen or that there may be a cultural issue. The most I hear about it is on the likes of Facebook from racist nuggets sharing stuff from the likes of Robinson and Hopkins. I'm not saying there isn't a problem or can't be one, but simply that I've not been overly impressed by the sources putting forward the argument so far.

Moulin Yarns posted an interesting Guardian article, on this thread. It says it is not possible to establish cultural reasons for groups of men, predominantly of Pakistani origin bring involved in grooming gangs.

It seems beyond dispute that there is a disproportionate number of men from a similar background committing these offences. What is more difficult to establish is why.

Attempts by some to ignore what is plain to see are only providing ammunition to the likes of Hopkins and Robinson. IMO things like that play right into the downtrodden white people mindset.

People constantly say they are ignored. Usually there is a good reason - they are talking pants. However, when they have concrete evidence of what they see as others getting away with what they wouldn't, it doubles their grievance.

We have to acknowledge that these crimes were covered up for some reason. It is essential that we establish what that reason was, learn, and move on.

[Moulin Yarns]

Moulin Yarns posted an interesting Guardian article, on this thread. It says it is not possible to establish cultural reasons for groups of men, predominantly of Pakistani origin bring involved in grooming gangs.

It seems beyond dispute that there is a disproportionate number of men from a similar background committing these offences. What is more difficult to establish is why.

Attempts by some to ignore what is plain to see are only providing ammunition to the likes of Hopkins and Robinson. IMO things like that play right into the downtrodden white people mindset.

People constantly say they are ignored. Usually there is a good reason - they are talking pants. However, when they have concrete evidence of what they see as others getting away with what they wouldn't, it doubles their grievance.

We have to acknowledge that these crimes were covered up for some reason. It is essential that we establish what that reason was, learn, and move on.

Nowhere in the Guardian article does it use the description 'Pakistani' It refers to Asian or Muslim, which is why I am unhappy with the way this thread is blaming one nationality over all others.

The Independent article about Child sex exploitation in Newcastle does mention nationalities both as perpetrators and victims.


Of eight victims covered in the trials, six were white and two were of African heritage, while the perpetrators came from a diverse range of backgrounds including Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, Iranian, Iraqi, Kurdish, Turkish, Albanian and Eastern European.


A judge concluded that the defendants "selected their victims not because of their race, but because they were young, impressionable, naive, and vulnerable”, including young girls and women with learning difficulties and mental health issues.


The review said that while perpetrators’ individual beliefs are not known, they “all appear to come from a non-white, predominantly Asian/British minority ethnic culture or background” – as in Rotherham, Rochdale and Oxfordshire, while a grooming gang in Bristol were from a Somali background.

[Cataplana]

Nowhere in the Guardian article does it use the description 'Pakistani' It refers to Asian or Muslim, which is why I am unhappy with the way this thread is blaming one nationality over all others.

The Independent article about Child sex exploitation in Newcastle does mention nationalities both as perpetrators and victims.

I hear what you are saying. Many of the perps in question, will actually be British. It does appear to be something that those of Pakistani descent are disproportionately represented.

[Moulin Yarns]

I hear what you are saying. Many of the perps in question, will actually be British. It does appear to be something that those of Pakistani descent are disproportionately represented.

So you, and others, keep saying without providing any evidence.

Let's be clear, anyone found to be involved in the exploitation of girls deserves to be brought to court, regardless of their ethnicity, but this unwarranted hounding of one nationality is frankly rubbish. I almost said racist,but we can't have that now, can we.

[Cataplana]

So you, and others, keep saying without providing any evidence.

Let's be clear, anyone found to be involved in the exploitation of girls deserves to be brought to court, regardless of their ethnicity, but this unwarranted hounding of one nationality is frankly rubbish. I almost said racist,but we can't have that now, can we.

There have been repeated cases of men from a particular ethnic background being involved in grooming gangs. Your desperation not to see that is completely disrespectful to the victims.

The evidence stems from victim testimony and from whistle blowers who were ignored and worse. However, it seems there are still some who are getting the wrong end of the stick, and accusing anybody who points this out of being a racist.

[Moulin Yarns]

There have been repeated cases of men from a particular ethnic background being involved in grooming gangs. Your desperation not to see that is completely disrespectful to the victims.

The evidence stems from victim testimony and from whistle blowers who were ignored and worse. However, it seems there are still some who are getting the wrong end of the stick, and accusing anybody who points this out of being a racist.

At least the article I quoted provides evidence that there are more nationalities than Pakistani men involved.

The fact that some are trying to single out a single nationality is the smokescreen as far as I'm concerned.

[Smartie]

There have been repeated cases of men from a particular ethnic background being involved in grooming gangs. Your desperation not to see that is completely disrespectful to the victims.

The evidence stems from victim testimony and from whistle blowers who were ignored and worse. However, it seems there are still some who are getting the wrong end of the stick, and accusing anybody who points this out of being a racist.

What background though?

The nation of Pakistan?

The faith of Islam?

Groups made up of immigrants of various nationalities and faiths?


Are there other social aspects involved - poverty (on behalf of victims or perpetrators) or social class? Education levels?

I'm not saying there isn't a problem, I'm not saying there isn't a "cultural aspect" - there might be - but solid evidence of that is thin on the ground as far as I can see.

Personally, I would be astonished if political correctness stopped police from adequately investigating child abuse of any nature, although I accept that this has been put forward by some and is worthy of conversation and investigation.


As far as I can see, what we mainly have are a lot of racist people who have racist beliefs looking for evidence to justify their own beliefs rather than forming their opinions based on evidence, which so far appears to be thin on the ground.

I should also add that I am not accusing anyone who has contributed to this thread of being in any way racist - as nobody has been - and the subject is certainly worthy of debate. Please just be careful of being drawn in by the propaganda of the racist and the ignorant and forming opinions about nationalities, faiths and groups of people based on flimsy evidence because even though not racist you run the risk of being labelled as one by being taken in by weak argument.

This has consequences. The more we build barriers amongst ourselves, the more we alienate members of society, the more likely they are to become the people that you are scared of them being.

[matty_f]

There have been repeated cases of men from a particular ethnic background being involved in grooming gangs. Your desperation not to see that is completely disrespectful to the victims.

The evidence stems from victim testimony and from whistle blowers who were ignored and worse. However, it seems there are still some who are getting the wrong end of the stick, and accusing anybody who points this out of being a racist.
This post is out of order, IMHO - there is nothing whatsoever that is disrespectful to the victims in asking for evidence or stats to back up statements that are being made.

In fact, it's a perfectly sensible and rational starting point for the discussion.

[Andy Bee]

This post is out of order, IMHO - there is nothing whatsoever that is disrespectful to the victims in asking for evidence or stats to back up statements that are being made.

In fact, it's a perfectly sensible and rational starting point for the discussion.

The problem being Matty that there isn't any stats because the authorities choose not to record ethnicity or religion, TBF why would they? There's plenty pics of men who have been convicted for the crime but it would be wrong to assume that they're all Pakistani muslims or British of pakistani descent.

Maajid Nawaz covered the topic on LBC but highlights more the fact that they're predominantly Pakistani Muslims or muslims of Pakistani descent

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/accuses-caller-denial-asian-grooming-gangs/

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

A little research goes a long way.


The true number of offences remains doubtful, generally assumed to be larger, due to expected unreported cases of child abuse. Some 90% of the sexually abused children were abused by people who they knew, and about one out of every three abused children did not tell anyone else about it. The vast majority of child sex offenders in England and Wales are male, with men representing 98% of all defendants in 2015/16, and white, with whites representing 85% of convicted child sex offenders and 86% of the general population in 2011. Asians represent 8% of the general population of England and Wales as of 2011. A 2011 analysis by the Child Exploitation and online Protection Command of 940 possible offenders reported for "street grooming and child sexual exploitation" found that 38% were white, 36% were Asian, while 32% were of an unknown ethnicity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_in_the_United_Kingdom


Where offenders’ ethnicity was known, 81% of people convicted of sexual offences in 2014 were white, 7% were black and 9% were Asian in 2014. These proportions were similar over the previous four years.

https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/

Debunking the sweeping it under the carpet argument

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/asian-grooming-gangs-media-state-and-the-far-right/

[JeMeSouviens]

I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

Spot on.

It is exactly the same phenomenon as the way the worst kind of bigoted Huns bang on about Jock Stein, Celtic Boys Club and the Catholic church. Zero concern or respect for the victims, just a propaganda opportunity.

[Cataplana]

This post is out of order, IMHO - there is nothing whatsoever that is disrespectful to the victims in asking for evidence or stats to back up statements that are being made. In fact, it's a perfectly sensible and rational starting point for the discussion. I apologise to MY.

I accept that no disrespect was intended.

I think the crux of this debate is whether there have been a number of cover ups of grooming by "Pakistani" gangs which have been covered up by the police and social services. It is not about whether Pakistanis are paedophiles or whether they are the biggest problem.

There have been several reports of cover ups of abuse of vulnerable children, by predominantly Pakistani males, I think it is fair to accept that this is an area of child protection that needs to be explored.

To consistently say that there is no evidence is wrong, as it has been pointed out on this thread several times that there is. It's not a good debate when people don't respond to evidence that is laid before them, and continue to say none exists.

If the evidence is pants, then say it's pants. Ignoring it just muddies the waters completely.

It's not very helpful when the counter argument contains thinly veiled suggestions that people asking why this has been happening have a racist agenda. When ethnicity is a common factor, there may well be areas to explore.

[Andy Bee]

I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.


You're absolutely right, the majority of child sexual abuse in the UK is carried out by white males, the vast majority of males in the UK are white so that's to be expected but for this specific crime it's predominantly Pakistani or British Pakistani muslims and it's wrong and also doing the victims a disservice to say it's a "tiny minority" it's 1,000's of kids being abused, the same MO every time involving young white girls and Pakistani/British Pakistani muslims and it's happening in nearly if not all major cities and large towns in the UK, there's a pattern here.

I listened to a lady high up in child services who's spent years dealing with this explaining the process.

"The Hook, a young girl who's already been indoctrinated into the group is dropped off at places where young girls hangout, they're usually a couple of years older than the victim, they'll then befriend a prospective victim, hangout for an hour or so and then she'll mention her mate had arrived and was waiting in the car for them, usually a sporty car with blacked out windows, you've all seen them, parked up, young male playing the stereo loudly, they're in every city in the UK. The victim then follows on as she's just wanting to hangout with the older kids, they drive around for an hour or two with the victim getting fed soft drugs and alcohol. She's then asked if she wants to go to a party, assured by her new found friend that everything is good, they then arrive and find males from teenagers upto 50-60 yr olds and other victims and the abuse ensues, harder drugs are introduced and before long the victim then turns into another hook"

I've no problem with you thinking I'm racist, it's actually understandable, I'm too long in the tooth and comfortable in the fact to know that I'm not, it sadly tells me more about you than me. You simply can't read the above and disregard the fact that this is happening and there's a pattern. Not to mention the fact that this specific crime being committed is predominantly by a minority of Pakistani/British Pakistani muslim males on predominantly young white female kids is wrong and doing a disservice to the victims and TBF also the vast majority of good Pakistani muslim males that live their life within the confines of the law and contribute a lot to this society.

A little research goes a long way.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_in_the_United_Kingdom



https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/

Debunking the sweeping it under the carpet argument

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/asian-grooming-gangs-media-state-and-the-far-right/

Debunking, debunking the sweeping it under the carpet arguement https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/margaret-oliver-rochdale-police-grooming-13027067


Spot on.

It is exactly the same phenomenon as the way the worst kind of bigoted Huns bang on about Jock Stein, Celtic Boys Club and the Catholic church. Zero concern or respect for the victims, just a propaganda opportunity.

When you talk about zero respect for the victims, what would you call Police and Child Services sweeping this under the carpet because of fear of being labelled racist, the abuse carrying on for years when it didn't need to because of the same fear, exactly what's happening here.

[Cataplana]

I'm guessing now but I'd guess that the vast majority of child abuse in the UK is carried out by white European males. They'll be uncles, cousins, fathers and people close to and in most cases it will be people with authority over the victims. It might be that Pakistani paedophiles have cornered the child grooming gang end of the paedophile market by using drugs and other bait to empower themselves over their victims, but you can be sure that these "gangs" are just a tiny minority in the evil scourge of child molestation. To single out Pakistani paedophiles as being somehow more depraved than our own homegrown beasts is not only nonsense but also racist. There, I've said it.

Who said anything about scales of depravity? Likewise nobody suggested that anybody had "cornered a market?"

I think the questions people are asking are within context, and have perspective. To call people racist, is much the same thing as accusing people who questioned abuse within the church anti Catholic.

In fact calling people racist was the first line of defence for these gangs, and fear of being labeled with that may have resulted in more kids being exploited.

What can we learn, and how do we prevent it happening again? What was it that made the police and social services ignore the girls complaints?

We need to know if there is an institutional fear of race, or class, that allows perpetrators a curtain to hide behind.

[Hibrandenburg]

You're absolutely right, the majority of child sexual abuse in the UK is carried out by white males, the vast majority of males in the UK are white so that's to be expected but for this specific crime it's predominantly Pakistani or British Pakistani muslims and it's wrong and also doing the victims a disservice to say it's a "tiny minority" it's 1,000's of kids being abused, the same MO every time involving young white girls and Pakistani/British Pakistani muslims and it's happening in nearly if not all major cities and large towns in the UK, there's a pattern here.

I listened to a lady high up in child services who's spent years dealing with this explaining the process.

"The Hook, a young girl who's already been indoctrinated into the group is dropped off at places where young girls hangout, they're usually a couple of years older than the victim, they'll then befriend a prospective victim, hangout for an hour or so and then she'll mention her mate had arrived and was waiting in the car for them, usually a sporty car with blacked out windows, you've all seen them, parked up, young male playing the stereo loudly, they're in every city in the UK. The victim then follows on as she's just wanting to hangout with the older kids, they drive around for an hour or two with the victim getting fed soft drugs and alcohol. She's then asked if she wants to go to a party, assured by her new found friend that everything is good, they then arrive and find males from teenagers upto 50-60 yr olds and other victims and the abuse ensues, harder drugs are introduced and before long the victim then turns into another hook"

I've no problem with you thinking I'm racist, it's actually understandable, I'm too long in the tooth and comfortable in the fact to know that I'm not, it sadly tells me more about you than me. You simply can't read the above and disregard the fact that this is happening and there's a pattern. Not to mention the fact that this specific crime being committed is predominantly by a minority of Pakistani/British Pakistani muslim males on predominantly young white female kids is wrong and doing a disservice to the victims and TBF also the vast majority of good Pakistani muslim males that live their life within the confines of the law and contribute a lot to this society.


Debunking, debunking the sweeping it under the carpet arguement https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/margaret-oliver-rochdale-police-grooming-13027067



When you talk about zero respect for the victims, what would you call Police and Child Services sweeping this under the carpet because of fear of being labelled racist, the abuse carrying on for years when it didn't need to because of the same fear, exactly what's happening here.

You've still not explained why you would appear to find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind. Why does the fact that it's mainly Pakistani men seem to bother you more than when dads, uncles, cousins and other men close to the victims is much more wide spread? We've had plenty of examples in the past where groups of white men have abused and passed around children amongst themselves, the Catholic Church, football clubs, scout groups, orphanages, the Westminster paedophile ring and countless other groups that I can remember off the top of my head and not to mention many thousand cases of individual predators, what makes these groups more distasteful to you than the others? The only difference I see is their race and method, the crimes themselves are the same.

[Hibrandenburg]

Who said anything about scales of depravity? Likewise nobody suggested that anybody had "cornered a market?"

I think the questions people are asking are within context, and have perspective. To call people racist, is much the same thing as accusing people who questioned abuse within the church anti Catholic.

In fact calling people racist was the first line of defence for these gangs, and fear of being labeled with that may have resulted in more kids being exploited.

What can we learn, and how do we prevent it happening again? What was it that made the police and social services ignore the girls complaints?

We need to know if there is an institutional fear of race, or class, that allows perpetrators a curtain to hide behind.

I've no problem with any of that, but again, to think that child abuse is a Pakistani trait is ridiculous and racist.

[Hibrandenburg]

A little research goes a long way.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_sexual_abuse_in_the_United_Kingdom



https://fullfact.org/crime/what-do-we-know-about-ethnicity-people-involved-sexual-offences-against-children/

Debunking the sweeping it under the carpet argument

http://www.irr.org.uk/news/asian-grooming-gangs-media-state-and-the-far-right/

I don't have much time on my hands at the moment (skiing holiday) but I normally will research something before posting it. Tbf I was pretty certain about this anyway.

[Andy Bee]

You've still not explained why you would appear to find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind. Why does the fact that it's mainly Pakistani men seem to bother you more than when dads, uncles, cousins and other men close to the victims is much more wide spread? We've had plenty of examples in the past where groups of white men have abused and passed around children amongst themselves, the Catholic Church, football clubs, scout groups, orphanages, the Westminster paedophile ring and countless other groups that I can remember off the top of my head and not to mention many thousand cases of individual predators, what makes these groups more distasteful to you than the others? The only difference I see is their race and method, the crimes themselves are the same.


You've never asked me to explain why I seemingly "find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind" is there a much more prevalent kind? TBH child abuse is abhorrent, are you suggesting otherwise to suit your agenda?

[Hibrandenburg]

You've never asked me to explain why I seemingly "find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind" is there a much more prevalent kind? TBH child abuse is abhorrent, are you suggesting otherwise to suit your agenda?

No I'm suggesting that all child abuse is abhorrent but can't quite fathom why anyone would think it's worse if it's carried out by Pakistani men.

What's my agenda?

[Cataplana]

I've no problem with any of that, but again, to think that child abuse is a Pakistani trait is ridiculous and racist.

No cultural links have been established. However we have to get to the bottom of why these grooming gangs seemed to be above the law.


I don't have much time on my hands at the moment (skiing holiday) but I normally will research something before posting it. Tbf I was pretty certain about this anyway.

In what way is ignoring what the girls were saying, and pulling resources from the enquiry not sweeping it under the carpet?

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in grooming gangs and this particular model of abuse. And no that is not a racist statement. Neither is it racist to say that when it comes to wider child abuse nearly 90 per cent of those convicted and on the sex offenders register are white men.” Naz Shah MP,


Let’s be clear about “Pakistani” men – are we including the The Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government, Sajid Javid, in this sweeping statement? Because he’s Pakistani. Or how about Sadiq Khan, the Mayor of London? The list goes on.


There is no community where men don’t rape girls and we must face up to it. Yes Pakistani men are disproportionately involved in grooming gangs and this particular model of abuse. And no that is not a racist statement. Neither is it racist to say that when it comes to wider child abuse nearly 90 per cent of those convicted and on the sex offenders register are white men. However, focussing entirely on one community ignores the fact that vulnerable young girls of all ethnicities are targeted by men.


it is crucial to recognise that in many child sexual exploitation cases, victims are also of different cultural and ethnic backgrounds, including Pakistani victims. If anything, some women’s groups have indeed put forward the case that in fact Pakistani girls are preferred targets as they are less likely to come forward and seek help due to the concepts of honour and shame.

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/newcastle-grooming-scandal-exploitation-victims-sarah-champion-race-a7890106.html?amp


Researchers point out that the disproportionate representation of people of Asian ethnicity in studies on grooming gangs may be caused by a number of things including: bias in the collecting of information, the high profile nature of similar cases, and small sample sizes. This might mean, for example, that when recording information about offenders or suspected offenders, the organisations involved are more likely to record ethnicity if the person is Asian. Or it might mean that, because they had seem similar cases in the media, child protection organisations look out for specific types and patterns of grooming and abuse more than others leading to similar types of groups being caught.

[Hibrandenburg]

No cultural links have been established. However we have to get to the bottom of why these grooming gangs seemed to be above the law.



In what way is ignoring what the girls were saying, and pulling resources from the enquiry not sweeping it under the carpet?

The original post on this thread claimed that it would appear to be a cultural thing amongst Pakistani men. That's my only real objection to the statements on this thread. Any failures to investigate the allegations in the first place lie with the authorities and not the Pakistani community. In the 50+ years I've been on this earth I've read about many different child abuse scandals in many different communities and organisations. Many of these scandals didn't come to light for years because the authorities didn't listen to the victims or didn't believe that the people committing these abhorrent deeds were capable of doing so.

Yes it's correct to ensure that these crimes are fully and thoroughly investigated, however it's wrong and racist to single out one community for extra vitriol and that's exactly what's happening here.

[Cataplana]

The original post on this thread claimed that it would appear to be a cultural thing amongst Pakistani men. That's my only real objection to the statements on this thread. Any failures to investigate the allegations in the first place lie with the authorities and not the Pakistani community. In the 50+ years I've been on this earth I've read about many different child abuse scandals in many different communities and organisations. Many of these scandals didn't come to light for years because the authorities didn't listen to the victims or didn't believe that the people committing these abhorrent deeds were capable of doing so.

Yes it's correct to ensure that these crimes are fully and thoroughly investigated, however it's wrong and racist to single out one community for extra vitriol and that's exactly what's happening here.

I've not seen much vitriol. However, I think we're on the same page mostly.

I would be dismayed if it transpires that the authorities ignored it so as not to offend one group.

[Killiehibbie]

I've not seen much vitriol. However, I think we're on the same page mostly.

I would be dismayed if it transpires that the authorities ignored it so as not to offend one group.

I would think this is probably the case. Years ago there was a squad set up to target Asian criminal gangs in Glasgow, it was disbanded because it could be seen as racist.

[Smartie]

I would think this is probably the case. Years ago there was a squad set up to target Asian criminal gangs in Glasgow, it was disbanded because it could be seen as racist.

Seen as racist or actually racist?

Is there a need for a squad to target Asian criminal gangs in addition to a squad who investigate criminal gangs, some of whom are Asian?

I know there are people on here who will long for the days when you could call a spade a spade etc but whilst modern policing may be imperfect and have its flaws, I wouldn’t swap them for the Hillsborough police or the “Stephen Lawrence era” institutionally racist metropolitan police.

Black people. Football fans. Men from pakistan. Scots.

Be careful what you wish for.

[Killiehibbie]

Seen as racist or actually racist?

Is there a need for a squad to target Asian criminal gangs in addition to a squad who investigate criminal gangs, some of whom are Asian?

I know there are people on here who will long for the days when you could call a spade a spade etc but whilst modern policing may be imperfect and have its flaws, I wouldn’t swap them for the Hillsborough police or the “Stephen Lawrence era” institutionally racist metropolitan police.

Black people. Football fans. Men from pakistan. Scots.

Be careful what you wish for.

Is using officers of Asian origin to target criminals within the community they grew up in racist or good policing? i believe they got victims of protection and extortion to be more cooperative.

[Cataplana]

I would think this is probably the case. Years ago there was a squad set up to target Asian criminal gangs in Glasgow, it was disbanded because it could be seen as racist.

I have heard similar stories, but have no proof they are true, regarding prostitution in Govanhill.

I suppose similar tales were doing the rounds in the likes of Doncaster and Rochdale. A public enquiry would go a long way towards telling us what the reasons were that complaints by alleged victims were ignored.

A broad spectrum of people are interested in the result. It would be ludicrous if some of the parties asking the questions were called racist, as they represent communities that are suffering as a result of all this attention.

[lord bunberry]

You've still not explained why you would appear to find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind. Why does the fact that it's mainly Pakistani men seem to bother you more than when dads, uncles, cousins and other men close to the victims is much more wide spread? We've had plenty of examples in the past where groups of white men have abused and passed around children amongst themselves, the Catholic Church, football clubs, scout groups, orphanages, the Westminster paedophile ring and countless other groups that I can remember off the top of my head and not to mention many thousand cases of individual predators, what makes these groups more distasteful to you than the others? The only difference I see is their race and method, the crimes themselves are the same.
I’m sorry but that is totally missing the point. No one is saying that one form of child abuse is worse than another. This thread as started after another Muslim gang has been exposed. I’m fed up up with trying to be politically correct in these cases. Theses a minority of Muslim men who prey on young girls in order to either use them as sex slaves or put them out for prostitution. This in itself is horrendous, but when you add in the fact that none of these girls being exploited are Muslim leads to the inevitable conclusion that it’s racially motivated. Some people might be afraid to say it, but I’ve got broad shoulders.

[lapsedhibee]

This in itself is horrendous, but when you add in the fact that none of these girls being exploited are Muslim leads to the inevitable conclusion that it’s racially motivated.

Not necessarily. It might be that young white girls are simply more vulnerable than young Muslim girls. There might be cultural reasons for that.

[Hibrandenburg]

I’m sorry but that is totally missing the point. No one is saying that one form of child abuse is worse than another. This thread as started after another Muslim gang has been exposed. I’m fed up up with trying to be politically correct in these cases. Theses a minority of Muslim men who prey on young girls in order to either use them as sex slaves or put them out for prostitution. This in itself is horrendous, but when you add in the fact that none of these girls being exploited are Muslim leads to the inevitable conclusion that it’s racially motivated. Some people might be afraid to say it, but I’ve got broad shoulders.

Young vulnerable girls (and boys) have always been in danger of falling into the hands of human traffickers, perverts and pimps. There's literature going back centuries that tell the tales of unscrupulous individuals and gangs taking advantage of vulnerable kids. These gangs haven't invented it, they're just one group of *******s in a long history of *******s abusing children.

The vast majority of easy pickings for these monsters will be white and from broken or disadvantaged homes. I can't get my head around why you think it's more disgusting because Pakistani men are this time the perpetrators. Child abuse in the church, communities, orphanages, amongst celebrities, politicians and numerous other groups have previously been swept under the carpet, why the extra outrage at this group?

[Hibrandenburg]

You've never asked me to explain why I seemingly "find this particular method of child sex abuse worse than the much more prevalent kind" is there a much more prevalent kind? TBH child abuse is abhorrent, are you suggesting otherwise to suit your agenda?

Still waiting to hear what my agenda is?

[makaveli1875]

Still waiting to hear what my agenda is?

Whenever there's a thread about terrorists or grooming gangs your all over it calling folk racist.

[Hibrandenburg]

Whenever there's a thread about terrorists or grooming gangs your all over it calling folk racist.

I think you're the only person on here that I've called racist.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/newcastle-grooming-scandal-exploitation-victims-sarah-champion-race-a7890106.html?amp

I'm amazed that no one commented on the above post, must have been the first one that had facts and not just some made up rubbish about foreigners.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm amazed that no one commented on the above post, must have been the first one that had facts and not just some made up rubbish about foreigners.

It's a good article, the idea that rape and child abuse in the UK is a cultural phenomenon is simply ridiculous.

[Andy Bee]

Still waiting to hear what my agenda is?


To turn this thread into a is he/isn't he racist competition instead of addressing my initial question. "Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?"


You keep rolling out this line of why some people here find this type of abuse "more disgusting", I can guarantee that nobody here finds this type of abuse "more disgusting" than any other abuse and you know it so stop saying it.

This is a fairly new phenomenon, more and more of these gangs and victims are coming to light and it's current, it's happening right now in a lot of UK cities and towns, that's why it's being discussed, not because you've stumbled onto some kind of secret KKK sleeper cell.

36 of the 39 territorial Police forces in England have or are in the process of investigating a grooming gang. Two of those forces are investigating more than one gang at the moment. Eighteen of those forces have investigated a grooming gang case or cases where all of or most of the perpetrators are "Asian", three forces have brought a case to trial that the perps were all white and two where the perps were black. In ten forces FactCheck couldn't establish the ethnicity of the accused and in half of those it was because the case was still to be brought to trial.



To give some background to my initial question..Maggie Oliver a Det Const in Greater Manchester Police was chosen to lead Operation Augusta in 2004, started because of the death of a 15yr old girl who overdosed on heroin injected by a 50yr old man. She identified 16 victims, gained their trust and then went on to identify 97 suspects, predominantly of Pakistani Muslim descent. She then took 3 months compassionate leave to care for her husband and upon her return the investigation had been closed down. Lack of finances was the official line but it's thought it was also to do with fear of racial tension, only three convictions were established and the investigation was buried. That's the reason for my initial OP, when I said a new grooming gang had been uncovered it was more that Andy Burnham initiated an enquiry and the findings uncovered the cases from back in 2004 and operation Augusta. There's going to be some horrific stories coming from the upcoming investigation and it could of all been stopped 16 years ago.

A similar story in Rochdale. Sara Rowbotham was a sexual health worker, now an MP and suspected abuse was happening in girls from the age of 13yr old who attended her clinic. She reported her suspicions to child services and police and was fobbed off for years. Her and her team collected names, addresses, even reg numbers for cars for 100's of suspects and kept reporting them without any of the services taking it further because of what she thought was fear of being labelled racist. Initially a case was opened, one of the victims came forward and made a statement but the case was dropped because the CPS doubted the witnesses credibility. Years later Maggie Oliver was involved in re-opening the case where she mentions that it was almost a carbon copy of what was happening in Manchester. She brought some of the perps to justice but mentions the fact that she had only scratched the surface, that's bolstered by the fact when a girl who was 13yr's old at the time and had serious learning difficulties was finally interviewed 6 years later she mentions in her testimony that she was taken to flats, dropped off, taken in, then confronted by a circle of around 50 men who "passed her around like a ball", only a gang of 9 were convicted.

The final nail in the coffin for that gang was the witness who initially was deemed not credible years previously, cross examined by 9 different defence barristers and she nailed them.

Maggie Oliver then resigned from the force because of the way some witnesses were treated and to be able to talk openly about it.

Nafir Afzal's first job on becoming the chief crown Prosecutor was to reopen the Rochdale case stating "white professionals' over-sensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled"


Just to add and on some reflection, on posting my original post I was reluctant to label these gangs Asian because I'm not comfortable generalising like that. I'm also not comfortable naming them as Muslims because I'm no expert in the Quran but I know for a fact that every practising Muslim who is devoted to their religion would not dream of committing these crimes and are as appalled, probably more than I am, they simply wouldn't identify these animals as being true Muslims and I'm not actually comfortable singling them out as predominantly Pakistani or Pakistani heritage either. Nobody has a problem naming catholic priests and the way some of them behaved for example so what's the difference?

[Killiehibbie]

To turn this thread into a is he/isn't he racist competition instead of addressing my initial question. "Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?"


You keep rolling out this line of why some people here find this type of abuse "more disgusting", I can guarantee that nobody here finds this type of abuse "more disgusting" than any other abuse and you know it so stop saying it.

This is a fairly new phenomenon, more and more of these gangs and victims are coming to light and it's current, it's happening right now in a lot of UK cities and towns, that's why it's being discussed, not because you've stumbled onto some kind of secret KKK sleeper cell.

36 of the 39 territorial Police forces in England have or are in the process of investigating a grooming gang. Two of those forces are investigating more than one gang at the moment. Eighteen of those forces have investigated a grooming gang case or cases where all of or most of the perpetrators are "Asian", three forces have brought a case to trial that the perps were all white and two where the perps were black. In ten forces FactCheck couldn't establish the ethnicity of the accused and in half of those it was because the case was still to be brought to trial.



To give some background to my initial question..Maggie Oliver a Det Const in Greater Manchester Police was chosen to lead Operation Augusta in 2004, started because of the death of a 15yr old girl who overdosed on heroin injected by a 50yr old man. She identified 16 victims, gained their trust and then went on to identify 97 suspects, predominantly of Pakistani Muslim descent. She then took 3 months compassionate leave to care for her husband and upon her return the investigation had been closed down. Lack of finances was the official line but it's thought it was also to do with fear of racial tension, only three convictions were established and the investigation was buried. That's the reason for my initial OP, when I said a new grooming gang had been uncovered it was more that Andy Burnham initiated an enquiry and the findings uncovered the cases from back in 2004 and operation Augusta. There's going to be some horrific stories coming from the upcoming investigation and it could of all been stopped 16 years ago.

A similar story in Rochdale. Sara Rowbotham was a sexual health worker, now an MP and suspected abuse was happening in girls from the age of 13yr old who attended her clinic. She reported her suspicions to child services and police and was fobbed off for years. Her and her team collected names, addresses, even reg numbers for cars for 100's of suspects and kept reporting them without any of the services taking it further because of what she thought was fear of being labelled racist. Initially a case was opened, one of the victims came forward and made a statement but the case was dropped because the CPS doubted the witnesses credibility. Years later Maggie Oliver was involved in re-opening the case where she mentions that it was almost a carbon copy of what was happening in Manchester. She brought some of the perps to justice but mentions the fact that she had only scratched the surface, that's bolstered by the fact when a girl who was 13yr's old at the time and had serious learning difficulties was finally interviewed 6 years later she mentions in her testimony that she was taken to flats, dropped off, taken in, then confronted by a circle of around 50 men who "passed her around like a ball", only a gang of 9 were convicted.

The final nail in the coffin for that gang was the witness who initially was deemed not credible years previously, cross examined by 9 different defence barristers and she nailed them.

Maggie Oliver then resigned from the force because of the way some witnesses were treated and to be able to talk openly about it.

Nafir Afzal's first job on becoming the chief crown Prosecutor was to reopen the Rochdale case stating "white professionals' over-sensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled"


Just to add and on some reflection, on posting my original post I was reluctant to label these gangs Asian because I'm not comfortable generalising like that. I'm also not comfortable naming them as Muslims because I'm no expert in the Quran but I know for a fact that every practising Muslim who is devoted to their religion would not dream of committing these crimes and are as appalled, probably more than I am, they simply wouldn't identify these animals as being true Muslims and I'm not actually comfortable singling them out as predominantly Pakistani or Pakistani heritage either. Nobody has a problem naming catholic priests and the way some of them behaved for example so what's the difference?

I heard stories of similar things happening 40 years ago in Edinburgh. I'm sure a few of us heard rumours of schoolgirls being paid for sex with a pair of jeans then taken to flats to be passed around groups of men.

[wpj]

I heard stories of similar things happening 40 years ago in Edinburgh. I'm sure a few of us heard rumours of schoolgirls being paid for sex with a pair of jeans then taken to flats to be passed around groups of men.

There were all kinds of things going on in the 80s that were pretty well known. There were convictions, even without the internet the accusations were pretty damning.

[JeMeSouviens]

To turn this thread into a is he/isn't he racist competition instead of addressing my initial question. "Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?"


You keep rolling out this line of why some people here find this type of abuse "more disgusting", I can guarantee that nobody here finds this type of abuse "more disgusting" than any other abuse and you know it so stop saying it.

This is a fairly new phenomenon, more and more of these gangs and victims are coming to light and it's current, it's happening right now in a lot of UK cities and towns, that's why it's being discussed, not because you've stumbled onto some kind of secret KKK sleeper cell.

36 of the 39 territorial Police forces in England have or are in the process of investigating a grooming gang. Two of those forces are investigating more than one gang at the moment. Eighteen of those forces have investigated a grooming gang case or cases where all of or most of the perpetrators are "Asian", three forces have brought a case to trial that the perps were all white and two where the perps were black. In ten forces FactCheck couldn't establish the ethnicity of the accused and in half of those it was because the case was still to be brought to trial.



To give some background to my initial question..Maggie Oliver a Det Const in Greater Manchester Police was chosen to lead Operation Augusta in 2004, started because of the death of a 15yr old girl who overdosed on heroin injected by a 50yr old man. She identified 16 victims, gained their trust and then went on to identify 97 suspects, predominantly of Pakistani Muslim descent. She then took 3 months compassionate leave to care for her husband and upon her return the investigation had been closed down. Lack of finances was the official line but it's thought it was also to do with fear of racial tension, only three convictions were established and the investigation was buried. That's the reason for my initial OP, when I said a new grooming gang had been uncovered it was more that Andy Burnham initiated an enquiry and the findings uncovered the cases from back in 2004 and operation Augusta. There's going to be some horrific stories coming from the upcoming investigation and it could of all been stopped 16 years ago.

A similar story in Rochdale. Sara Rowbotham was a sexual health worker, now an MP and suspected abuse was happening in girls from the age of 13yr old who attended her clinic. She reported her suspicions to child services and police and was fobbed off for years. Her and her team collected names, addresses, even reg numbers for cars for 100's of suspects and kept reporting them without any of the services taking it further because of what she thought was fear of being labelled racist. Initially a case was opened, one of the victims came forward and made a statement but the case was dropped because the CPS doubted the witnesses credibility. Years later Maggie Oliver was involved in re-opening the case where she mentions that it was almost a carbon copy of what was happening in Manchester. She brought some of the perps to justice but mentions the fact that she had only scratched the surface, that's bolstered by the fact when a girl who was 13yr's old at the time and had serious learning difficulties was finally interviewed 6 years later she mentions in her testimony that she was taken to flats, dropped off, taken in, then confronted by a circle of around 50 men who "passed her around like a ball", only a gang of 9 were convicted.

The final nail in the coffin for that gang was the witness who initially was deemed not credible years previously, cross examined by 9 different defence barristers and she nailed them.

Maggie Oliver then resigned from the force because of the way some witnesses were treated and to be able to talk openly about it.

Nafir Afzal's first job on becoming the chief crown Prosecutor was to reopen the Rochdale case stating "white professionals' over-sensitivity to political correctness and fear of appearing racist may well have contributed to justice being stalled"


Just to add and on some reflection, on posting my original post I was reluctant to label these gangs Asian because I'm not comfortable generalising like that. I'm also not comfortable naming them as Muslims because I'm no expert in the Quran but I know for a fact that every practising Muslim who is devoted to their religion would not dream of committing these crimes and are as appalled, probably more than I am, they simply wouldn't identify these animals as being true Muslims and I'm not actually comfortable singling them out as predominantly Pakistani or Pakistani heritage either. Nobody has a problem naming catholic priests and the way some of them behaved for example so what's the difference?


Nobody would dispute that the failure to properly investigate the cases you mention was scandalous and seems to have been down to 3 things:

- because they concentrated on crimes in which they had targets to meet and child sexual exploitation wasn't one of those
- because they feared exacerbating existing racial tensions between communities
- because of over sensitivity due to their own history of "institutional racism", the Lawrence case etc.

However, those cases were over a decade ago. Is there a serious concern/do you have evidence that the lessons weren't learned and the same failings are continuing? If so, then there is some basis for your initial question, although I would argue that none of the 3 factors can be described as "political correctness", gone mad or otherwise.

Otoh, if investigations into such cases are now being carried out with the resources and thoroughness they should be, then what are you trying to achieve?

[Hibrandenburg]

To turn this thread into a is he/isn't he racist competition instead of addressing my initial question. "Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?"


You keep rolling out this line of why some people here find this type of abuse "more disgusting", I can guarantee that nobody here finds this type of abuse "more disgusting" than any other abuse and you know it so stop saying it.

This is a fairly new phenomenon, more and more of these gangs and victims are coming to light and it's current, it's happening right now in a lot of UK cities and towns, that's why it's being discussed, not because you've stumbled onto some kind of secret KKK sleeper cell.

Or I simply call out racism when I see it. FWIW I've not called anyone a racist on this thread and as far as I can remember have only ever done so once in all the years I've been on here, instead I've merely pointed out that claiming child abuse is culturally motivated or somehow acceptable in Pakistani culture then that is racist.

As has already been pointed out by other posters, there were more factors involved in why these particular cases might not have been confronted immediately and all I can add to that is there was also an element of victim blaming involved. Many of these girls were already viewed by the police as trouble and from trouble and were seen to be the architects of their own misery and their claims fell on deaf ears because of this.

I stand by what I said about other child abuse rings, they are equally monstrous but if you direct all your disgust at these particular rings and say it's related to the Pakistani culture then you shouldn't be too surprised if that is perceived by some to be racist.

This is anything but a new phenomenon, gangs like this have been abusing children and young adults since time began. If as you claim it is cultural then it's a part of every culture that has ever existed including our own.

[Kato]

I heard stories of similar things happening 40 years ago in Edinburgh. I'm sure a few of us heard rumours of schoolgirls being paid for sex with a pair of jeans then taken to flats to be passed around groups of men.

There are witnesses being protected (changed identities/moved out of the City) due to an investigation into an abuse ring which was based in Edinburgh city centre right now. The investigation has been going on for a few years and I've no idea why such secrecy surrounds it or why the witnesses require protection. A woman who was a victim as a girl was a friend of my wife and has been moved out, she said her farewells to my wife a while ago but there has been nothing in the papers for while.

[Hibrandenburg]

There are witnesses being protected (changed identities/moved out of the City) due to an investigation into an abuse ring which was based in Edinburgh city centre right now. The investigation has been going on for a few years and I've no idea why such secrecy surrounds it or why the witnesses require protection. A woman who was a victim as a girl was a friend of my wife and has been moved out, she said her farewells to my wife a while ago but there has been nothing in the papers for while.

Have a wee read up on "Operation Planet". Edinburgh has history with this kind of thing. Sexual abuse goes right to the top of our society .

[Cataplana]

Have a wee read up on "Operation Planet". Edinburgh has history with this kind of thing. Sexual abuse goes right to the top of our society .

One of the best things I ever saw at the festival was a play called "One of Oor Ain", it was an insight into how paedophile rings in central Scotland operated, and highlighted that for the lower level operators to stay out of jail, they have to procure for those higher up, such as judges.

[Killiehibbie]

One of the best things I ever saw at the festival was a play called "One of Oor Ain", it was an insight into how paedophile rings in central Scotland operated, and highlighted that for the lower level operators to stay out of jail, they have to procure for those higher up, such as judges.


A story I heard was one of the guys selling porn at Ingliston was charged and remanded for 7 days, the next week he was given bail and all charges later dropped once his lawyer was given his mailing list.

[Cataplana]

A story I heard was one of the guys selling porn at Ingliston was charged and remanded for 7 days, the next week he was given bail and all charges later dropped once his lawyer was given his mailing list.

The play is a one woman show about her father. She is certain that he abducted and murdered a child in Coatbridge.

At the end she was careful to stress that he was on bail for other child offences, and that she was certain this was because he had friends in the justice system.

[Moulin Yarns]

I see yet another 'Grooming gang' has been convicted. This time the predominantly Pakistani men are from Latvia and groomed a girl in Glasgow.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-51498165

[Cataplana]

I see yet another 'Grooming gang' has been convicted. This time the predominantly Pakistani men are from Latvia and groomed a girl in Glasgow.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-51498165

What's your point?

[lapsedhibee]

I see yet another 'Grooming gang' has been convicted. This time the predominantly Pakistani men are from Latvia and groomed a girl in Glasgow.



https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-51498165

Come over here, interfering with our stereotypes.

[Cataplana]

Come over here, interfering with our stereotypes.

Yes, but this gang was convicted, whereas there's more than a hint that the actions of Pakistani gangs have been covered up, or ignored because of "resourcing issues."

[Moulin Yarns]

Yes, but this gang was convicted, whereas there's more than a hint that the actions of Pakistani gangs have been covered up, or ignored because of "resourcing issues."

It's funny how many reports appear in the media of CSE groups being convicted, of all nationalities and backgrounds, that suggests it is no longer covered up. And it's not funny how many people seem to think people of one particular background are worse than others, and get away with it because of some PCs being PC.

[Cataplana]

It's funny how many reports appear in the media of CSE groups being convicted, of all nationalities and backgrounds, that suggests it is no longer covered up. And it's not funny how many people seem to think people of one particular background are worse than others, and get away with it because of some PCs being PC.

Right, I don't think many people on this thread fit that bill. It they do, they aren't the only people making judgements on others.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's funny how many reports appear in the media of CSE groups being convicted, of all nationalities and backgrounds, that suggests it is no longer covered up. And it's not funny how many people seem to think people of one particular background are worse than others, and get away with it because of some PCs being PC.

It's incredible that with around 50 000 cases of sexual abuse on children per annum in England and Wales alone, that so much attention is concentrated on those cases where the perpetrators are of different racial profile to the majority of child abusers. All it achieves is to deflect from the real problem and play into the hands of political populism.

[Cataplana]

It's incredible that with around 50 000 cases of sexual abuse on children per annum in England and Wales alone, that so much attention is concentrated on those cases where the perpetrators are of different racial profile to the majority of child abusers. All it achieves is to deflect from the real problem and play into the hands of political populism.

The attention is on the cover up. That is the real problem. If there is a racial link to the abuse bring covered up then it has to be questioned.

Was there a fear of investigating and prosecuting certain gangs because of their race? It's something that has been repeated over and again on this thread.

[Moulin Yarns]

The attention is on the cover up. That is the real problem. If there is a racial link to the abuse bring covered up then it has to be questioned.

Was there a fear of investigating and prosecuting certain gangs because of their race? It's something that has been repeated over and again on this thread.

It has been repeated with no evidence to back it up. Yes, historically there have been cases dropped for reasons some claim were cover ups, lack of resources, powers that be, but any cases cited are something like 15 years ago, there is no evidence that cover ups are taking place now because of the ethnic origin of perpetrators. And to make claims that are blatantly racist that "Pakistani Men" are more involved than any other group is diverting attention away from the victims.

There, I've said it.

[Cataplana]

It has been repeated with no evidence to back it up. Yes, historically there have been cases dropped for reasons some claim were cover ups, lack of resources, powers that be, but any cases cited are something like 15 years ago, there is no evidence that cover ups are taking place now because of the ethnic origin of perpetrators. And to make claims that are blatantly racist that "Pakistani Men" are more involved than any other group is diverting attention away from the victims.

There, I've said it.

No need for emotive stuff like "there I've said it," we are all adults here after all.

We still don't know why the situations in Rochdale and other towns was allowed to continue unchecked.

Your concern for the victims should extend to finding out why it happened, identifying those responsible, and ensuring that it can't happen again.

You seem to think that because it's all historic that there is nothing to worry about anymore.

If it is being covered up now, how woukd we know?

[JeMeSouviens]

No need for emotive stuff like "there I've said it," we are all adults here after all.

We still don't know why the situations in Rochdale and other towns was allowed to continue unchecked.

Your concern for the victims should extend to finding out why it happened, identifying those responsible, and ensuring that it can't happen again.

You seem to think that because it's all historic that there is nothing to worry about anymore.

If it is being covered up now, how woukd we know?

Maybe we should read this?

https://www.gmpcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/81461-Coffey-Report_v5_WEB-single-pages.pdf

[Cataplana]

Maybe we should read this?

https://www.gmpcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/81461-Coffey-Report_v5_WEB-single-pages.pdf

Yes, that would be a very good source. If it questioned the ethnicity of the offenders, as an objective, independent review it could have done everyone a service by confirming, or destroying the suspicions of those who think it is an issue.

If people had accepted the findings of the original enquiries into Bloody Sunday, or Hillsborough we wouldn't be where we are today.

[JeMeSouviens]

Yes, that would be a very good source. If it questioned the ethnicity of the offenders, as an objective, independent review it could have done everyone a service by confirming, or destroying the suspicions of those who think it is an issue.

If people had accepted the findings of the original enquiries into Bloody Sunday, or Hillsborough we wouldn't be where we are today.

A very good point. (I haven't read the report myself, btw, was just looking to see if there was anything out there.)

[Cataplana]

A very good point. (I haven't read the report myself, btw, was just looking to see if there was anything out there.)

Problem is conspiracy theorists will always question the motivation, and impartiality of people who don't confirm their version of the truth. Really though, that report has a big part to play in creating suspicions that ethnicity is not allowed to be questioned, and that there is an inner circle of people in child protection and the police who are protecting themselves and others from scrutiny on the matter.

When people who you never considered to be racist, start asking questions that you consider racist, you have to look at your own ability to have an open mind. Particularly when that involves admitting to yourself that you might be guilty of some of the things they are concerned about.

I am not expecting a great holding up of hands any time soon. What is more worrying, is that those that may have "got away with it" will see that report as confirmation that they didn't really do anything wrong.

[Cataplana]

https://www.itv.com/news/granada/update/2014-10-30/coffey-report-ethnicity-of-offenders-not-reflected-say-critics/



Former Detective Constable Margaret Oliver told ITV News that Ann Coffey is aware of the ethnicity of the offenders and the profile of victims. She says the MP has employed 'wilful blindness' by intentionally watering down the report to look at child abuse in general, rather than looking at child sexual exploitation.


This is not about any specific ethnicity being superior or inferior to others in its proclivity for this type of activity. It is about whether failure to investigate a common ethnicity has been right or wrong. The last sentence seems to mirror what has been going on here - namely distracting from a question about specific actions by widening the debate to take in paedophilia (these guys were not paedophiles), and then using that as a context to minimise the actions of the gangs in question.

Yes there may well have been 50,000 sexual offences against children. We are concerned about the ones that involved collusion between grooming gangs, social services and the police.

What we are focussing on in this topic, is the sub set that involves grooming gangs who have evaded justice and whom appear to have been aided by those responsible for protecting children.

[Moulin Yarns]

Maybe we should read this?

https://www.gmpcc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/81461-Coffey-Report_v5_WEB-single-pages.pdf

Some useful information there.


Figures obtained from Greater Manchester Police, as part
of this inquiry, reveal that many children are still being
preyed on each day and there are currently 260 ‘live’
investigations into child sexual exploitation. Of these,
174 are recorded crimes and 18 of those cases involve
multiple perpetrators.
The majority of cases of children and young people who
have been sexually abused involve single offenders, and
there are big variations across police divisions.


Police, social workers, prosecutors and juries, made up of
ordinary people, all carry attitudes around with them. This
could go some way to explain why in the past six years
in Greater Manchester there have only been about 1,000
convictions out of 13,000 reported cases of nine major
sexual offences against under-16-year-olds.


High-profile court cases, such as Rochdale, have elevated
CSE into the public consciousness, but at the same time
Thave left the impression that CSE is only about vulnerable
white girls being exploited by groups of Asian men.
This isn’t the case, as GMP figures show that 10.34 per
cent of recorded crimes currently being investigated
involve multiple offenders, with the remaining being
single perpetrators. The Rochdale Sunrise CSE team
also told me that about 15 per cent of their cases involve
groups, with the other 85 per cent being single offenders
including peer on peer (where young people sexually
exploit other young people).


In Rochdale, the nine men convicted of grooming
girls with alcohol, drugs and gifts and then passing
them round multiple men for sex were predominantly
British/Pakistani.


A small minority of British Pakistani men are
criminal sex offenders as in other communities. So
it is important to understand why those particular
men became criminal sex offenders. The assertion
that it was a racial crime in that the girls were targeted
because they were white is undermined by the fact
that one of the men in the Rochdale case was also
convicted of a serious sexual offence on a British/
Pakistani girl. We do not know whether these men
also abused other British/Pakistani girls.


I hope that this puts the racial elements into context.

[Cataplana]

Some useful information there.


I hope that this puts the racial elements into context.

The problem is that it is this report that has brought the suggestions of a cover up. It has been discredited by many of the people who worked on the case.

In short the facts presented are disputed and even discredited. However it appear that questioning this report draws accusations of racism, and ignoring the victims in the case.

To me there are two tiers of victims. Firstly the girls who were abused and let down by the justice system, for whatever reason - we have yet to find out.

Secondly, justice and freedom are also victims when the people accused of the crime are also those we trust to investigate wrong doing.

[Moulin Yarns]

Sadly they were first brought to light in 2004 in Manchester but Police shelved the case because apparently they lacked the resources, there's some serious answers needed from all the services of the time including social services. Predominantly men of Pakistani descent again, yes Asian but predominantly Pakistani not Chinese, not Indian, not Burmese, not Korean this is a cultural thing in which some Pakistani males feel they have the right to systematically abuse young white female kids and it needs to stop, that's Telford, Rochdale, Oxford, Huddersfield, Rotherham and god knows where else. I listened to the grandmother of one of their victims and it was heartbreaking, she spoke of putting her grandaughter in a warm bath frequently to try and soothe her bruising, she reported the abuse to the police numerous times to no avail, unfortunately the 15yr old after years of sexual abuse was injected with a lethal dose of heroin by one of her abusers. 97 people reported and not one has been convicted although I stand to be corrected.

Has political correctness went that far that people and more to the point Police and Social Services are actually that scared to confront something like this that they'd rather sweep it under the carpet?


Another Grooming Gang convicted, and not a Pakistani among them. I wonder what the proportion is now? Dropping all the time. And certainly no brushing it under the carpet as some like to think.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-51740608

[Cataplana]

Another Grooming Gang convicted, and not a Pakistani among them. I wonder what the proportion is now? Dropping all the time. And certainly no brushing it under the carpet as some like to think.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-51740608

Funny, you didn't share the same concerns about football coaches being targeted. I take it you'll put the same energy into protecting those who are victims of that slur ?

Nobody said all grooming gangs were Pakistani. What they said was that there were several cover ups of abuse rings involving Pakistani men, and wondered what the common thread was.

Why do you say there was no cover up in Rochdale when senior social workers, and police officers who worked on the case said there was?

[Cataplana]

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?345344-Scottish-Football-Paedophile-Rings&p=6098963#post6098963

That's the thread there.

[Moulin Yarns]

https://www.hibs.net/showthread.php?345344-Scottish-Football-Paedophile-Rings&p=6098963#post6098963

That's the thread there.

There are no blatant racist accusations against the perpetrators in the football abuse which is what I find is wrong with the original post in this thread.


predominantly Pakistani not Chinese, not Indian, not Burmese, not Korean this is a cultural thing in which some Pakistani males feel they have the right to systematically abuse young white female kids

And there is several instances where that is clearly not the case, the latest lot are Kurdish, so I will continue to call out the racism on this thread, thank you very much.

[Cataplana]

There are no blatant racist accusations against the perpetrators in the football abuse which is what I find is wrong with the original post in this thread.



And there is several instances where that is clearly not the case, the latest lot are Kurdish, so I will continue to call out the racism on this thread, thank you very much.

Fair enough. Why are people objecting to the Rochdale report?

Do you agree there is a case for a cover up?

[Moulin Yarns]

Fair enough. Why are people objecting to the Rochdale report?

Do you agree there is a case for a cover up?

I'll make my mind up when you provide a verified link.

Most of the alleged cover ups are historic and not current cases as shown by the number of cases coming to court.

[Cataplana]

I'll make my mind up when you provide a verified link.

Most of the alleged cover ups are historic and not current cases as shown by the number of cases coming to court.

Here is a link to someone questioning the report. Why would she do that?

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/operation-augusta-police-tried-cover-17565347

I'm actually interested in the allegation of cover ups in the report.

[Andy Bee]

There are no blatant racist accusations against the perpetrators in the football abuse which is what I find is wrong with the original post in this thread.



And there is several instances where that is clearly not the case, the latest lot are Kurdish, so I will continue to call out the racism on this thread, thank you very much.


Are you seriously denying that this type of gang rape isn't an issue that involves predominantly men of Pakistani heritage? You just picked out of thin air a case involving Kurdish men but you failed to mention a case from last week in Huddersfield where 7 men all of Pakistani heritage were jailed for a total of 55 years, why? One of the victims was thought to have been raped by an estimated 300 men before her 15th birthday yet only 7 were convicted, why is that?

There's a recurring theme with victims in which they all mention having to "walk past men who raped me on the street". In Rochdale a victim mentions being taken into a flat and being surrounded by around 50 men who "passed me around like a football" she was 13 at the time, given that's only one instance on one night I can't even imagine how many were/are still involved and what these girls went through yet the majority of the abusers are still walking the streets, why? Sara Rowbotham in Rochdale highlighted around 150 men who she suspected, names, reg plates and addresses and thought she was only scratching the surface yet the majority still walk the streets.

Here's an excerpt from the Rochdale Wiki, some very prominent Pakistani men and women acknowledge what's happening. You should maybe think about what Sayeeda Warsi says below, I suggest you do more research before throwing around the racist card so easily.

"In a BBC documentary investigating grooming young girls for sex by some Pakistani men, Imam Irfan Chishti from the Rochdale Council of Mosques deplored the practice, saying it was "very shocking to see fellow British Muslims brought to court for this kind of horrific offence."[38][39] Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused elders of the Pakistani community of "burying their heads in the sand" on the matter of sexual grooming. He said that of convictions involving child sexual exploitation, 87% were of British Pakistani men and it was a significant problem for that community. He said the actions of criminals who thought "white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused" were "bringing shame on our community."[3]

Sayeeda Warsi, co-chairperson of the Conservative Party, in an interview with the Evening Standard, said "You can only start solving a problem if you acknowledge it first," and added, "This small minority who see women as second class citizens, and white women probably as third class citizens, are to be spoken out against." She described the Rochdale case as "even more disgusting" than cases of girls being passed around street gangs, as the perpetrators "were grown men, some of them religious teachers or running businesses, with young families of their own."