Is Racism the same as Sectarianism?

[A Hi-Bee]

In these topical times I though a snap poll would be interesting in these days of ism’s.
I thought it very interesting that when Neil Lennon was Hibs manager he brought this up and it was followed by near enough silence from our club. (They issued some joint statement along with Dr Budgie, but that was about behaviour in general, they both dodge the issue)

[1van Sprou7e]

I don't see how one is worse than the other

[Peevemor]

I don't see how one is worse than the other

I agree, but I don't think they're the same either.

[Pretty Boy]

It's different but equally shameful. The argument about people 'choosing their religion' is a false flag.

[Groathillgrump]

Both are forms of discrimination and discrimination of any kind shouldn't be tolerated.

[calumhibee1]

In these topical times I though a snap poll would be interesting in these days of ism’s.
I thought it very interesting that when Neil Lennon was Hibs manager he brought this up and it was followed by near enough silence from our club. (They issued some joint statement along with Dr Budgie, but that was about behaviour in general, they both dodge the issue)

Technically no. But it’s not a lot different and it should be treated every bit as seriously.

[Bostonhibby]

No but they usually **** in the same nest.

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[neil7908]

To me they are. I don't see how there can be a hierarchy of types of prejudice, hatred and discrimination.

[Keith_M]

It's different but equally shameful. The argument about people 'choosing their religion' is a false flag.


What he said.

Im glad I dont live in one of the (many) countries where people that want to follow a different form of worship to the accepted kind (or none at all) are 2nd class citizens, sometimes in fear for their lives.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

https://twitter.com/AdamCatterall/status/1208840851176247297?s=19

Shame that sky shat it from what Neville said

[FilipinoHibs]

People of different races can be of the same religion - e.g. Catholicism.

But the discrimination can be racial. Rangers hatred of Irish Catholics but tolerance of latin Catholics.

Anti-semitism on the other hand is hatred of all Jews - European, Arab etc.

[1van Sprou7e]

https://twitter.com/AdamCatterall/status/1208840851176247297?s=19

Shane the sky shat it from what Neville said

Deary me

[BILLYHIBS]

https://twitter.com/AdamCatterall/status/1208840851176247297?s=19

Shane the sky shat it from what Neville said

Dearie me!

Well played Gary Neville

[BILLYHIBS]

Neil Lennon said it was so it must be!

:dunno:

[hibsbollah]

https://twitter.com/AdamCatterall/status/1208840851176247297?s=19

Shane the sky shat it from what Neville said

Generally, when white men of a certain age, who have never experienced racism, start telling people of colour whether they are suffering racism or not (as happened to Stormzy recently and was on display again on Question Time the other night), it all gets a bit beyond parody. Gary Neville represented a brilliant change from the usual narrative, the sky presenter not so much.

[Keith_M]

People of different races can be of the same religion - e.g. Catholicism.

But the discrimination can be racial. Rangers hatred of Irish Catholics but tolerance of latin Catholics.

Anti-semitism on the other hand is hatred of all Jews - European, Arab etc.


And how do you feel about someone reciting a tale of being in a room with a group of older German Ladies and presuming they're all Nazis?

[CMurdoch]

https://twitter.com/AdamCatterall/status/1208840851176247297?s=19

Shame that sky shat it from what Neville said

Wow!
That was good from Gary Neville.
Not surprising Sky shat it when you consider Sky owns most of the press which is fuelling racism and ....... Boris

[CMurdoch]

Generally, when white men of a certain age, who have never experienced racism, start telling people of colour whether they are suffering racism or not (as happened to Stormzy recently and was on display again on Question Time the other night), it all gets a bit beyond parody. Gary Neville represented a brilliant change from the usual narrative, the sky presenter not so much.

The Sky presenter would have had someone going ape**** in his ear.
Dave looked very embarrassed.

[judas]

They both end with an ‘ism’. But the preceding letters are largely different in number and arrangement.

Seriously though. I don’t think there is much difference. Just two classifications of ignorant prejudice.

[blackpoolhibs]

We have the odd idiot shouting racist remarks or noises, then you have a whole stadium or away end screaming bigoted songs.

None of it right, but one getting much more coverage than the other??????

Scotland really is a backwater that does not want change. :rolleyes:

[ancient hibee]

Neil Lennon said it was so it must be!

:dunno:

I think what he actually said was on the lines of "it's not sectarianism it's just racism pure and simple".

[BILLYHIBS]

I think what he actually said was on the lines of "it's not sectarianism it's just racism pure and simple".
👍🏾

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's different but equally shameful. The argument about people 'choosing their religion' is a false flag.

Very much so. Bigotry is bigotry and any attempt to justify it by differentiation is disingenuous. How many people 'choose' a religious belief, as opposed to being raised in faith; and what difference does it make it anyway? Prejudice based upon a perceived difference is still prejudice. Semantics do not offer any solution.

[The dalmeny]

https://twitter.com/AdamCatterall/status/1208840851176247297?s=19

Shame that sky shat it from what Neville said


Yip shat it big time

[Scouse Hibee]

The difference is one is rearing it’s ugly head again while the other doesn’t exist in Scottish football. Source: SFA GLASGOW.

[gbhibby]

Be interesting to find out how many of the bigot brothers are are church/chapel goers. Very few. I have been following hibs since the 1965 and am sick of hearing the bigots and racist comments and by the way the worst racist chants have come from the bigot brothers. My opinion is that racism and sectarianism are the same. It is nearly 2020 and nothing has really changed since I attended my first game the same bigoted songs are still on the go and I hear racist comments most weeks. Both are equally repugnant. Unless we have strict liability nothing will change.

[FilipinoHibs]

Generally, when white men of a certain age, who have never experienced racism, start telling people of colour whether they are suffering racism or not (as happened to Stormzy recently and was on display again on Question Time the other night), it all gets a bit beyond parody. Gary Neville represented a brilliant change from the usual narrative, the sky presenter not so much.

That happens on here to me. I am of Latin American with indiginous indian ancestory. I have been repeatedly told that portraying my heritage as drug dealers and the use of coconut is not racist. I put it down to the fact that percentage of Scots of non Asian/Black African who have overseas ancestory is less than 0.1%. I expect a barrage of people refuting these are not racist slurs. I will not be replying but leave them to stupper in their racist ignorance.

[TrinityHibs]

And how do you feel about someone reciting a tale of being in a room with a group of older German Ladies and presuming they're all Nazis?

Did Gary Neville say that?

[FilipinoHibs]

Did Gary Neville say that?

In the mid 1970s if you were in an old folks home in Germany a high percentage of the occupants would have been members of the Nazi party or supporters of the Nazis. They certainly would not have been Jews or gypsies. That is a statistical fact and is not racist.

[DetroitHibs]

Where is the line drawn? Calling someone a fat basturd could be just as hurtful as calling someone a black basturd.

[FilipinoHibs]

Where is the line drawn? Calling someone a fat basturd could be just as hurtful as calling someone a black basturd.

One us hurtful but not racist but the other is racist. He could have been a thin *******

[one day maybe...]

You are a fenian
You are a fenian *******
You are a hun
You are a hun *******
You are black
You are a black ....,, !!!!
If you don’t get the above please leave

[Vault Boy]

I suppose by definition the answer is no. Sectarianism at its core is about religious or cultist devotions that are diametrically opposed.

Sectarianism in the UK does seem to cross into the realms of racism though, and it's probably more intellectual honest to put it all under the label of sectarianism (even if some of it is in fact anti-Irish racism). So from this standpoint I'd oppose my first paragraph and say, yeah it is racism.

The term fenian is used to not only describe Catholics (I believe its original purpose), but also anyone with Irish origin - which makes its use an inherently racist one when used in Scotland.

Ultimately this is really a discussion of semantics. The overwhelming consensus here is that whatever it should be categorised as, it's a vile form of bigotry and it's a true shame for humanity that it persists in 2019 Scotland.

As the atheist son of an Irish Catholic immigrant and a non-practicing Scottish Protestant, it doesn't half confuse the **** outta me. Probably doesn't help that it's 1AM!

[1875godsgift]

I suppose by definition the answer is no. Sectarianism at its core is about religious or cultist devotions that are diametrically opposed.

Sectarianism in the UK does seem to cross into the realms of racism though, and it's probably more intellectual honest to put it all under the label of sectarianism (even if some of it is in fact anti-Irish racism). So from this standpoint I'd oppose my first paragraph and say, yeah it is racism.

The term fenian is used to not only describe Catholics (I believe its original purpose), but also anyone with Irish origin - which makes its use an inherently racist one when used in Scotland.

Ultimately this is really a discussion of semantics. The overwhelming consensus here is that whatever it should be categorised as, it's a vile form of bigotry and it's a true shame for humanity that it persists in 2019 Scotland.

As the atheist son of an Irish Catholic immigrant and a non-practicing Scottish Protestant, it doesn't half confuse the **** outta me. Probably doesn't help that it's 1AM!

It was actually more of a political term for an Irish Nationalist, regardless of race or religion.

[Vault Boy]

It was actually more of a political term for an Irish Nationalist, regardless of race or religion.

Ah I see, cheers! So was the religious connotation brought into play in Northern Ireland?

I can't cite my bloody sources, would probably help prevent mistakes!

[heid the baw]

I would imagine on a global scale you are more likely to be killed on sectarian grounds than on racial grounds.

Both are wrong to any decent human being

[J-C]

Racism is a hatred towards someone's ethnicity and birthplace, sectarianism is a hatred of someone's religious beliefs. Occasionally the 2 overlap but they are quite different.

[Peevemor]

Racism is a hatred towards someone's ethnicity and birthplace, sectarianism is a hatred of someone's religious beliefs. Occasionally the 2 overlap but they are quite different.

It doesn't have to be hatred. It can be intolerance or even much less.

Somebody who likes Chinese people and food will, these days, be called a racist if he/she speaks about going for a "chinky". Where's the hatred?

[MWHIBBIES]

You are a fenian
You are a fenian *******
You are a hun
You are a hun *******
You are black
You are a black ....,, !!!!
If you don’t get the above please leave

Hun isn't sectarian.

[Greencore]

If it was hate towards Jews or Muslims something would definitely be done by the sfa.

[Fuzzywuzzy]

Hun isn't sectarian.

I would never think to call a Protestant fan from any other club a hun. The phrase is something that's secular.

[Scott Allan Key]

If it was hate towards Jews or Muslims something would definitely be done by the sfa.Ah, a prick arrives, who thinks minority groups have it better. There will be far fewer Christians in UK attacked or abused because of their faith than Jews or Muslims. I'd bet that includes NI as well.

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[BILLYHIBS]

Hun isn't sectarian.

Interesting point MWH

Nil by Mouth reckon the term is sectarian

Good wee article on the origin of the word Hun here

https://www.irishpost.com/news/what-does-the-word-hun-mean-and-what-is-its-place-in-todays-society-91001

[Irish-Hibee]

As an Irishman, I take absolutely no offense to people using the word "fenian". This word was first used by Irish soldiers themselves. It comes from word fianna, who were warriors in Irish folklore.

Therefore to be called a fenian you are effectively being called an Irish warrior.

It's quite humourous to be honest and shows the complete lack of knowledge of anyone who tries to use it in a derogatory sense.

[whiskyhibby]

The difference is one is rearing it’s ugly head again while the other doesn’t exist in Scottish football. Source: SFA GLASGOW.


Absolutely spot on, the indifference is unbelievable, lots of commentary with next to no action, turkeys don’t vote for Christmas in the SFA .......

[Smartie]

Where is the line drawn? Calling someone a fat basturd could be just as hurtful as calling someone a black basturd.

Ginger and bald are both also socially acceptable, so I accept it is a bit of a grey area.

The answer to the original question is "it should be, but for some reason in 21st century Scotland it is not".

In my eyes it is, and it really should be, but the acceptance of it by everyone from the police to the government to our club would suggest that it is not.

With the likes of Neil Lennon pointing out the ridiculousness of the situation, we can cling onto some hope that it will not always be the case.

[whiskyhibby]

The difference is one is rearing it’s ugly head again while the other doesn’t exist in Scottish football. Source: SFA GLASGOW.


Absolutely spot on, the indifference is unbelievable, lots of commentary with next to no action, turkeys don’t vote for Christmas in the SFA .......

[J-C]

It doesn't have to be hatred. It can be intolerance or even much less.

Somebody who likes Chinese people and food will, these days, be called a racist if he/she speaks about going for a "chinky". Where's the hatred?
True, hatred was a bit strong but casual racism liked going for a chunky isn't as bad as calling someone a Pakki *******, or a black ****er if you get my drift.

[where'stheslope]

Racism is a fairly new concept, as back in the 70's everyone was laughing at "Love thy Neighbour", which was the most racist tv program ever produced, yet was loved by everyone?
Now of course it is treated with total disdain, its was the same as the "Golly" on the jam jar, millions collected the different badges yet they were not termed Racist?
Just a small change in culture and political correctness and everyone has to change or be damned, and all some of them are doing is saying the way they were brought up????

[Keith_M]

Racism is a fairly new concept, as back in the 70's everyone was laughing at "Love thy Neighbour", which was the most racist tv program ever produced, yet was loved by everyone?
Now of course it is treated with total disdain, its was the same as the "Golly" on the jam jar, millions collected the different badges yet they were not termed Racist?
Just a small change in culture and political correctness and everyone has to change or be damned, and all some of them are doing is saying the way they were brought up????


I'm not sure if it's just me but I'm struggling to see what point your trying to make.

Maybe you could clarify, because it didn't really come over in a good way (which I'm willing to believe you didn't intend).

[neil7908]

Racism is a fairly new concept, as back in the 70's everyone was laughing at "Love thy Neighbour", which was the most racist tv program ever produced, yet was loved by everyone?
Now of course it is treated with total disdain, its was the same as the "Golly" on the jam jar, millions collected the different badges yet they were not termed Racist?
Just a small change in culture and political correctness and everyone has to change or be damned, and all some of them are doing is saying the way they were brought up????

Total nonsense. Society changes, big deal. Not being racist isn't politically correct, it's not being a terrible person.

Is it really beyond people from the 70s to understand that stuff from nearly 50 years ago isn't OK any more? My mum and dad were born in the late 40s so have lived through a lot of changes in the world and have managed to adapt and adjust.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Ah, a prick arrives, who thinks minority groups have it better. There will be far fewer Christians in UK attacked or abused because of their faith than Jews or Muslims. I'd bet that includes NI as well.

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I think you're being harsh in that reply to Greencore. I think he has a valid point, in that sectarianism remains the elephant in the room in Scotland. If the behaviour was anti-Semitic or Islamophobic, national soul searching would be intense, yet interdenominational bigotry between Christian sects happens every week at the football. It's accepted as part of life, but the Old Firm can't get away with it in European competitions.

[where'stheslope]

I'm not sure if it's just me but I'm struggling to see what point your trying to make.

Maybe you could clarify, because it didn't really come over in a good way (which I'm willing to believe you didn't intend).
I'm just trying to point out that back then it was never considered problem, it was a joke!
Comedian Jim Davidson had a character called "Chalkie White" and audiences fell about laughing at it?
The difference today is we're getting to a point when we are no longer allowed to have the wrong type of memories, as that is what they are just memories.

[matty_f]

Total nonsense. Society changes, big deal. Not being racist isn't politically correct, it's not being a terrible person.

Is it really beyond people from the 70s to understand that stuff from nearly 50 years ago isn't OK any more? My mum and dad were born in the late 40s so have lived through a lot of changes in the world and have managed to adapt and adjust.

Totally agree with your first point in particular. I'm not a racist not because of political correctness, but because being racist is abhorrent, ignorant, and disgusting.

[Keith_M]

I'm just trying to point out that back then it was never considered problem, it was a joke!
Comedian Jim Davidson had a character called "Chalkie White" and audiences fell about laughing at it?
The difference today is we're getting to a point when we are no longer allowed to have the wrong type of memories, as that is what they are just memories.


Then I have to disagree, as a lot of the stuff that was said was offensive and a lot of people viewed it that way, even then.

When I was about 7-8 years old, my best friend was black and that was at the time when Love Thy Neighbour and the like were on TV. Some nasty kids used to repeat the horrible names and phrases to him that they heard on that program.

Trust me, it wasn't funny.

[heid the baw]

Racism is a fairly new concept
Wrong. Anti racism is a fairly new concept.
Racism has been around for a long long time

[Kato]

Racism is a hatred towards someone's ethnicity and birthplace, sectarianism is a hatred of someone's religious beliefs. Occasionally the 2 overlap but they are quite different.Not when the term used is simply bigotry. I doubt the haters go seeking out semantic nuances to define who they hate.

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[Kato]

I'm just trying to point out that back then it was never considered problem, it was a joke!
Comedian Jim Davidson had a character called "Chalkie White" and audiences fell about laughing at it?
The difference today is we're getting to a point when we are no longer allowed to have the wrong type of memories, as that is what they are just memories.Do you think it was a joke for black people? Irish people who couldn't find housing? People who were barred from certain jobs. Were they laughing?

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[FilipinoHibs]

Totally agree with your first point in particular. I'm not a racist not because of political correctness, but because being racist is abhorrent, ignorant, and disgusting.

Ultimately too used by the Boris's of this world to divide us instead of uniting us again his likes. Brexit a good example of blaming immigrants for peoples" poverty.

[Keith_M]

The media, and people within the game, go on endlessly about 'Old Firm' games having the most amazing and unmatched atmosphere.

They are happy to completely ignore the fact that they are perpetuating an ugly, sectarian divide, singing songs celebrating terrorists or their hatred of the other's religion.

If this was, dare I say this, a group singing ant-semitic songs, they would have been (quite rightly) condemned from every quarter and playing behind closed doors long before now.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Without having read all the comments in the thread I voted "no" as I assumed the OP's question to mean "can you class Sectarianism as racism" as Lennon and others do. If however he meant "is one as serious as the other" my answer would be yes.

[Northernhibee]

It’s not, religion is a belief rather than part of your genetic make up.

Neither are acceptable in society or our football grounds though.

[InchHibby]

They are two forms of the worse kind of abuse which should not be tolerated in this society and certainly have no place in Football. As far as Scotland is concerned most of the blame must go to our ruling body, the SPFL for its continuation of burying its head in the sand for decades regarding the two clubs from the west. This of course is the reason why the EFL would never accept either of them because of this. It’s a pity because this league would be so much better without them.

[hibby6270]

I voted NO. They are both different but equally abhorrent. Conflating both subjects leads many to believe “they are the same”.

[Greencore]

Ah, a prick arrives, who thinks minority groups have it better. There will be far fewer Christians in UK attacked or abused because of their faith than Jews or Muslims. I'd bet that includes NI as well.

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When did I say they have it better? Its a fact you can be jailed for being islamophobic and anti semetic. Rightly so too.

You sing about killing catholics or protestants week in week out nothing happens.

Just for the record I have many Muslim friends in real life and online and know the abuse they go through from neds and racists. So you don't need to inform me about the abuse they receive. But thank you, Merry Christmas. 😉😘🎄

[Vini1875]

Technically the two things are different but in Scotland they are the same because it really means anti-Irish Catholic.

[blackpoolhibs]

We are arguing over semantics here, both are hate crimes that have no place in a modern society.

[blackpoolhibs]

Listening to the radio this morning while waking up, and cheeky chappie McCoist talking to Alan Brazil showed his true colours when discussing Josh Taylor, saying to Brazil he's one of your lot, I think he's a Hibs supporter.

I wonder what he meant by that? :rolleyes:

[JimBHibees]

Listening to the radio this morning while waking up, and cheeky chappie McCoist talking to Alan Brazil showed his true colours when discussing Josh Taylor, saying to Brazil he's one of your lot, I think he's a Hibs supporter.

I wonder what he meant by that? :rolleyes:

Very strange thing to say. McCoist has more faces than the town clock.

[Future17]

Listening to the radio this morning while waking up, and cheeky chappie McCoist talking to Alan Brazil showed his true colours when discussing Josh Taylor, saying to Brazil he's one of your lot, I think he's a Hibs supporter.

I wonder what he meant by that? :rolleyes:

If I was talking to a Hearts, Rangers, Celtc, Liverpool or 1860 Munich supporter about someone who supported their club, I'd probably refer to then as "one of your lot".

[blackpoolhibs]

If I was talking to a Hearts, Rangers, Celtc, Liverpool or 1860 Munich supporter about someone who supported their club, I'd probably refer to then as "one of your lot".

Me too, but Brazil is a Celtic fan?

[JimBHibees]

If I was talking to a Hearts, Rangers, Celtc, Liverpool or 1860 Munich supporter about someone who supported their club, I'd probably refer to then as "one of your lot".

Brazil has never been a Hibs fan.