Is there anyone defending Jezza on hibs.net these days?

[Hibbyradge]

A couple of folk who I still respect, but I won't name, gave up arguing the toss on here a good while ago.

I'm sure they did so because their arguments were just being met with the same clichés and dismissive assertions time and time again, so there was little point debating.

However, is there anyone who thinks having him as the leader of the Labour Party is a positive thing?

[heretoday]

I like his policies on housing and education. He's not convinced me he can be PM though with his handling of the antisemitism furore.
I'm still voting Labour!

[Just_Jimmy]

I'm voting labour. Mainly because I'll never vote Tory and it's tactical to stop them where I live.

He's a total liability. If labour had realised and installed a proper leader theyd have strolled this election. Instead they've subjected us to hard brexit and more Tory rule, in effect spelling the end of the country as we know it.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[JeMeSouviens]

A couple of folk who I still respect, but I won't name, gave up arguing the toss on here a good while ago.

I'm sure they did so because their arguments were just being met with the same clichés and dismissive assertions time and time again, so there was little point debating.

However, is there anyone who thinks having him as the leader of the Labour Party is a positive thing?

Translation - come back hibsbollah! :wink:

[Ozyhibby]

If Labour had put in someone like Cooper they would have been looking at a landslide win in two weeks. The hard left would prefer to lose though with Corbyn than compromise with Cooper. Result = Hard right Tory government.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[One Day Soon]

If Labour had put in someone like Cooper they would have been looking at a landslide win in two weeks. The hard left would prefer to lose though with Corbyn than compromise with Cooper. Result = Hard right Tory government.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Spot on I'm afraid.

[Pretty Boy]

On policy I agree with a lot of what he says.

To enact that policy he has to show the leadership skills to make himself electable.

He has failed to do that.

[One Day Soon]

A couple of folk who I still respect, but I won't name, gave up arguing the toss on here a good while ago.

I'm sure they did so because their arguments were just being met with the same clichés and dismissive assertions time and time again, so there was little point debating.

However, is there anyone who thinks having him as the leader of the Labour Party is a positive thing?


The best defence of him I can offer - and it really is thin - is this.

The Labour Party post Blair and post New Labour probably needed to swing to the left in order to create the discussion and space within which it could start the long journey back to credibility. It needed detoxifying over Iraq in particular.

Getting horsed twice by the Tories in the fashion it is likely to happen may fuel a more sane discussion about creating a progressive Labour that is capable of meeting the twin chalenges of being both radical and electable.

Corbyn being really, truly awful - politically, personally and in the revolting company he keeps - has perhaps accelerated the recovery process.

On the other hand there is so much toxic stuff associated with his leadership in every way conceivable that the net effect is pretty much unmitigated disaster.

[Hibbyradge]

Translation - come back hibsbollah! :wink:

Not fair tbh.

[JeMeSouviens]

Not fair tbh.

Ach, it was tongue in cheek. Anyway, I'd like hb back.

[Hibbyradge]

Ach, it was tongue in cheek. Anyway, I'd like hb back.

I'd like Labour to win the GE.

Neither is about to happen.

[Hibernia&Alba]

I'm a Green Party member and will be voting for them (unless I need to vote tactically) but I like a lot of what Jeremy Corbyn has done in terms of offering the electorate the chance to vote for democratic socialist policies and offering a clean break from the neoliberal consensus which has dominated British politics for forty years. If we had a proportional voting system, Labour would definitely be my second choice on the ballot. There are people who are saying he is unfit to be prime minister, yet are going to vote for Boris Johnson, which is a clear case of pottle and kettle. The billionaires who own the Tory papers are of course running every scare story they can, but I'd take Corbyn over Johnson as PM every time.

[Hibernia&Alba]

The best defence of him I can offer - and it really is thin - is this.

The Labour Party post Blair and post New Labour probably needed to swing to the left in order to create the discussion and space within which it could start the long journey back to credibility. It needed detoxifying over Iraq in particular.

Getting horsed twice by the Tories in the fashion it is likely to happen may fuel a more sane discussion about creating a progressive Labour that is capable of meeting the twin chalenges of being both radical and electable.

Corbyn being really, truly awful - politically, personally and in the revolting company he keeps - has perhaps accelerated the recovery process.

On the other hand there is so much toxic stuff associated with his leadership in every way conceivable that the net effect is pretty much unmitigated disaster.

He wasn't horsed in the last election at all - quite the opposite. The polls predicted a Tory majority of over a hundred. As it transpired, Labour gained seats and the Tories 'won' with a minority government.

[One Day Soon]

He wasn't horsed in the last election at all - quite the opposite. The polls predicted a Tory majority of over a hundred. As it transpired, Labour gained seats and the Tories 'won' with a minority government.

He lost. He's going to be horsed twice. If you don't think its a horsing go and ask the people dealing with the consequences of the last horsing who are also going to have to suffer the consequences of the second horsing.

[Hibernia&Alba]

He lost. He's going to be horsed twice. If you don't think its a horsing go and ask the people dealing with the consequences of the last horsing who are also going to have to suffer the consequences of the second horsing.

It wasn't a horsing though. The predictions were a horsing, but he improved Labour's position. It was Teresa May who was in tears on election night, not big Jez.

[Hibbyradge]

He wasn't horsed in the last election at all - quite the opposite. The polls predicted a Tory majority of over a hundred. As it transpired, Labour gained seats and the Tories 'won' with a minority government.

YouGov predicted a hung parliament in 2017 which is why this latest poll is being treated so seriously.

[lyonhibs]

If he was in the background making policy or something, maybe his principles etc would find a more fruitful outlet there. He's not an inspiring, charismatic leader and ultimately people vote for people to a certain extent.

On that basis, god knows how anyone can stomach voting for Boris Johnson but that aside not enough folk are going to be inspired to vote for Corbyn to displace the Tories. Somehow.

[Ozyhibby]

It wasn't a horsing though. The predictions were a horsing, but he improved Labour's position. It was Teresa May who was in tears on election night, not big Jez.

To lose to both Theresa May and Boris Johnson is truly a dreadful electoral performance.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bristolhibby]

If Labour had put in someone like Cooper they would have been looking at a landslide win in two weeks. The hard left would prefer to lose though with Corbyn than compromise with Cooper. Result = Hard right Tory government.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It’s almost like the Spanish Civil War.

The right have a natural tendency to respect authority, hierarchy and orders.

The lefts very makeup is trying to do something different and there’s multiple ways to do that.

Britain / England is always going to lean to the right. We are a Monarchy, the very definition of hierarchy.

Guess this is why countries like France, Germany and Italy can flip flop, they don’t have the historical baggage.

Hit control alt delete, and start again.

J

[NAE NOOKIE]

A couple of folk who I still respect, but I won't name, gave up arguing the toss on here a good while ago.

I'm sure they did so because their arguments were just being met with the same clichés and dismissive assertions time and time again, so there was little point debating.

However, is there anyone who thinks having him as the leader of the Labour Party is a positive thing?

i vote SNP so a car crash of a Labour leader is a good thing for the party I support .. on that basis I cant really complain :greengrin

But ... This is a UK election and taking a wider view I think its an absolute disaster that Labour have refused to acknowledge that the MSM and especially the right wing written press has done an extremely effective job of making Jeremy Corbyn practically unelectable.

It's all very well the wider Labour membership taking what they see as the moral high ground and keeping Corbyn in place because they admire his principled and genuinely held beliefs ... but by doing that they seem determined to shut their eyes to the fact that if you refuse to take a pragmatic approach in politics you are doomed.

This election should be an open door to Labour, especially in England and Wales, when you look at the right wing nut jobs and self entitled bufoons currently running the Tories ... But by refusing to face the fact that Corbyn, like him or not, agree with him or not, has been turned into a massive liability they are in the process of throwing it all away.

In the decades to come political historians will look back on this period in politics and probably give it its own name as the moment when Labour handed the UK to the Tories on a plate and the Labour party itself will have gone through decades in the wilderness kicking themselves over the massive mistake they made in 2019.

From a Scottish perspective if this scenario does play out we could find ourselves in a situation where time after time the SNP win the majority of seats in UK elections and either an outright majority or a majority in coalition with a pro indy party in the Scottish parliament on manifesto after manifesto calling for a second referendum and time after time a Tory UK government with little or no support in Scotland refusing to grant one.

If that were to happen, which is far from unlikely as things stand, then it will be entirely accurate in my view to make the case that Scotland isnt a partner in a union with England but is in fact an English possession under the guise of another name IE the UK ... not a partner in this 'precious union' but a prisoner of it. At what point then will an element within the independence movement decide that if a democratic mandate is going to be continually ignored a different path is justified.

No I'm not advocating violence .... but to blindly ignore the fact that out of such scenarios terrorist organisations are born would be in my view naive in the extreme.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s almost like the Spanish Civil War.

The right have a natural tendency to respect authority, hierarchy and orders.

The lefts very makeup is trying to do something different and there’s multiple ways to do that.

Britain / England is always going to lean to the right. We are a Monarchy, the very definition of hierarchy.

Guess this is why countries like France, Germany and Italy can flip flop, they don’t have the historical baggage.

Hit control alt delete, and start again.

J

I don’t think we do lean to the right though. It’s just that the left leaning vote splits multiple ways. The Tories now have the right to themselves.
If the Tories win this election it’s because they could be pragmatic and get a deal done with Farage and those on the left are too busy attacking each other.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[lord bunberry]

If I didn’t believe so strongly in Scotland becoming independent I would definitely vote Labour. I agree with almost all of their manifesto. Brexit is his biggest problem, so much so that he has to contend with working class Labour voters voting Tory. I’m not sure having a different leader would make as much difference as some think, they’d still have to deal with the fact that no matter what position they took on brexit it will alienate half their voters.

[Hibernia&Alba]

If I didn’t believe so strongly in Scotland becoming independent I would definitely vote Labour. I agree with almost all of their manifesto. Brexit is his biggest problem, so much so that he has to contend with working class Labour voters voting Tory. I’m not sure having a different leader would make as much difference as some think, they’d still have to deal with the fact that no matter what position they took on brexit it will alienate half their voters.

Good point. The great unknown is how many Labour voters will peel away to the Brexit Party or Conservatives because of Brexit. The Labour vote is much more divided on Brexit than the Tory vote, which is strongly pro-Brexit.

[lord bunberry]

Good point. The great unknown is how many Labour voters will peel away to the Brexit Party or Conservatives because of Brexit. The Labour vote is much more divided on Brexit than the Tory vote, which is strongly pro-Brexit.
I think enough to give the Tories a majority. If you took brexit out of the equation, this labour manifesto would be a vote winner, especially after years of Tory austerity. Labour will probably lose this election and reinvent itself again as a more centre ground party and win the next election. The real shame in that is that it won’t make much of a difference to the lives of the poor in the UK. Hopefully we’re long gone by then.

[Cataplana]

The only explanation I can think of is he is not trying to win. Instead he is promoting a vision of how things could be, so that people accept there is an alternative.

[Ozyhibby]

The only explanation I can think of is he is not trying to win. Instead he is promoting a vision of how things could be, so that people accept there is an alternative.

There will always be people who believe his style of socialism is possible but not enough to win an election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[hibsbollah]

A couple of folk who I still respect, but I won't name, gave up arguing the toss on here a good while ago.

I'm sure they did so because their arguments were just being met with the same clichés and dismissive assertions time and time again, so there was little point debating.

However, is there anyone who thinks having him as the leader of the Labour Party is a positive thing?

:greengrin
That's nice of you HR and je me souviens, And yes you're spot on, I did feel like political discussion on here had become mostly 'cliches and dismissive assertions'. And just combined with the generally nastier and more toxic nature of political debate more widely, I decided to just not look at or contribute to political threads on here, the same way as I pick and choose which pubs I drink in. (Although this particular thread title did catch my eye) And it's been a good decision for me, definitely.

I am really energised by this election and the policies that Labour are prioritising, and I am involved in the campaign, so I haven't retired from politics altogether :faf: I just engage with it in different places. You might not have noticed but I had posted a number of times earlier this year in total frustration with the Leaders office Brexit flip flopping, and I still find Corbyns failings very annoying. Another of the cliches you refer to is that Labour supporters on the left are in some sense enslaved to a personality cult, when the truth is most of us can see his failings perfectly well; we just like the policies!

Good luck and enjoy the election anyway :aok:

[WhileTheChief..]

The only explanation I can think of is he is not trying to win. Instead he is promoting a vision of how things could be, so that people accept there is an alternative.

I agree that he doesn't really want to become PM.

He couldn't handle having any real responsibility. It's much easier just shouting from the side that we need to spend more on everything and that the rich should pay for it. He's made a career of it.

Britain isn't, and never will be, a socialist country.

[Cataplana]

There will always be people who believe his style of socialism is possible but not enough to win an election.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I think Corbyn's tenure has been as much about marginalising the Blairites, as defeating the Tories.

It won't take long for the people seduced by a simplistic answer to their problems, like Brexit to realise they have been conned.

Give the Tories five years of heartless, greedy ineptitude, and offer a clear alternative.

[Betty Boop]

https://vimeo.com/324402664

[Crazyhorse]

Ach, it was tongue in cheek. Anyway, I'd like hb back.

What happened to hb?

[Crazyhorse]

I like his policies on housing and education. He's not convinced me he can be PM though with his handling of the antisemitism furore.
I'm still voting Labour!

Me too. But it’s tactical to try and unseat the local Tory and it probably won’t work.
A large Tory majority with the great buffoon in charge will ensure the break up of the UK in the next decade. The Tories won’t care about this they have become a right wing little englander party.
One side of me thinks the morons who voted for Brexit deserve what is coming to them. But on the other hand I feel sorry for them.

I would think it won’t be too long before the scapegoating will start in earnest, being BAME, Muslim, Irish, ‘foreign’ will become rather unpleasant in places like where I live (East Midlands).

[stoneyburn hibs]

I despise the Labour party almost as much as I despise the Tories.
They have an open goal from 2 yards out, unfortunately Jeremy is the man on the ball.
He isn't even looking to shoot, never mind score.

[Colr]

I despise the Labour party almost as much as I despise the Tories.
They have an open goal from 2 yards out, unfortunately Jeremy is the man on the ball.
He isn't even looking to shoot, never mind score.

He’d prefer sit with some likeminded fellows in the 18 yard box and try to redefine the semantics of the rules of the game that’s going on around him.

Bloody SWP theorist!!

[Cataplana]

He’d prefer sit with some likeminded fellows in the 18 yard box and try to redefine the semantics of the rules of the game that’s going on around him.

Bloody SWP theorist!!

More likely the board would go into the last game of the season and play the reserves as they knew that promotion would be disaster at this point.

[Betty Boop]

Funny there was no mention of anti-semetism when Ed Milliband was the Leader
of the Labour Party .

[Hibbyradge]

Funny there was no mention of anti-semetism when Ed Milliband was the Leader
of the Labour Party .

What do you think the reason for that was?

[Cataplana]

What do you think the reason for that was?

I'm not sure you're even allowed to think it any more.

[heretoday]

I'm a bit fed up with Jeremy but he still gets my vote on the day because of the radical policies in his manifesto, particularly on housing, education and waspi women.

[Colr]

I'm a bit fed up with Jeremy but he still gets my vote on the day because of the radical policies in his manifesto, particularly on housing, education and waspi women.

Waspi was not costed in the manifesto.

Was today’s announcement of 1/3 off rail fares?

They got a bit of a bounce in 2017 from making late financial commitments like on student loans but it feels like they are promising anything that comes into their heads.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Waspi was not costed in the manifesto.

Was today’s announcement of 1/3 off rail fares?

They got a bit of a bounce in 2017 from making late financial commitments like on student loans but it feels like they are promising anything that comes into their heads.

The man in your avatar would definitely have supported such policies :agree:

[RyeSloan]

Waspi was not costed in the manifesto.

Was today’s announcement of 1/3 off rail fares?

They got a bit of a bounce in 2017 from making late financial commitments like on student loans but it feels like they are promising anything that comes into their heads.

It’s totally mental...how you can just cook up cutting fares by a third, making travel free for under 16’s and then pretend it’s all costed and affordable is beyond me.

Waspi women, £55bn? No problem.

Nationalise huge swathes of industry? £xxbn. No problem.

Free broadband for all. £25bn - £150bn depending on who you listen to. No problem.

HS2? No problem.

Free double glazing and boilers for some, everyone else can get them to with grants and interest free loans. No problem.

Free uni education and 6 years free education for everyone else. No problem.

5% pay rise for all public workers. Even more billions. No problem.

The list goes on and on...so much so they haven’t actually worked out what they are going to spend all the billions on!

We really have travelled into the twilight zone in this election.

Radical is one way of describing it...not quite the term I would use though.

[Ozyhibby]

It’s totally mental...how you can just cook up cutting fares by a third, making travel free for under 16’s and then pretend it’s all costed and affordable is beyond me.

Waspi women, £55bn? No problem.

Nationalise huge swathes of industry? £xxbn. No problem.

Free broadband for all. £25bn - £150bn depending on who you listen to. No problem.

HS2? No problem.

Free double glazing and boilers for some, everyone else can get them to with grants and interest free loans. No problem.

Free uni education and 6 years free education for everyone else. No problem.

5% pay rise for all public workers. Even more billions. No problem.

The list goes on and on...so much so they haven’t actually worked out what they are going to spend all the billions on!

We really have travelled into the twilight zone in this election.

Radical is one way of describing it...not quite the term I would use though.

It’s embarrassing that anyone thinks it’s a serious offer. The only reason I wish him well is because I would like a hung parliament and there is zero chance he could win a majority. There would be a financial collapse if this plan had any hope of being introduced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Cataplana]

It’s embarrassing that anyone thinks it’s a serious offer. The only reason I wish him well is because I would like a hung parliament and there is zero chance he could win a majority. There would be a financial collapse if this plan had any hope of being introduced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

There are financial collapses regardless of how governments spend. Give them enough rope.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

Essentially Corbyn is a protestor and a best an influencer but not a leader. I am a life long card carrying Labour Party member, but the reality of a Labour Party toiling against this horrifying ideologically motivated Tory Party is all the evidence needed.

[Colr]

Essentially Corbyn is a protestor and a best an influencer but not a leader. I am a life long card carrying Labour Party member, but the reality of a Labour Party toiling against this horrifying ideologically motivated Tory Party is all the evidence needed.

Many of us joined the Labour party but seem to have been taken over by the SWP

[Cataplana]

Essentially Corbyn is a protestor and a best an influencer but not a leader. I am a life long card carrying Labour Party member, but the reality of a Labour Party toiling against this horrifying ideologically motivated Tory Party is all the evidence needed.

I think Labours problems started long before Corbyn. Let's face it he's done better than Milliband.

Ed summed up the disconnect between the party and the people it was supposed to represent. It saw movement to the SNP in Scotland, and fanned the flames of English Nationalism too.

[Mibbes Aye]

I think Labours problems started long before Corbyn. Let's face it he's done better than Milliband.

Ed summed up the disconnect between the party and the people it was supposed to represent. It saw movement to the SNP in Scotland, and fanned the flames of English Nationalism too.

I will stand up for Miliband. He stood up to Rupert Murdoch and the Daily Mail and changed the power balance with the press. The NOTW got closed down and nobody seriously thinks the print press has the sway it had in eighties or early-mid nineties. Everything is online now and Fleet Street papers have no hegemony over reporting, it is splintered and people take their reportage from a variety of sources, albeit unfortunately probably less objective and neutral than in previous times.

Miliband also stood up to the energy companies and vested interests in a manner which no other contemporary politician could claim to.

Where I think we may agree is that, in an unintended way, he tried to set a tone of populism. His populism was of the left, of social justice, of equity, of resentment against vested interests, against certain institutions.

The problem was that his arguments were equally able to be voiced by the right. Against the EU, against the welfare state, against the public sector.

[Bristolhibby]

I don’t think we do lean to the right though. It’s just that the left leaning vote splits multiple ways. The Tories now have the right to themselves.
If the Tories win this election it’s because they could be pragmatic and get a deal done with Farage and those on the left are too busy attacking each other.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Essentially exactly what I was saying. The right can “fall in” the left fights amongst itself and wonders why it lost.

I’m just saying the natural tendency of the U.K. voter (not saying the Scottish voter), is to tow the line. (Ie naturally Conservative, and loves an “order” to things).

J

[RyeSloan]

I will stand up for Miliband. He stood up to Rupert Murdoch and the Daily Mail and changed the power balance with the press. The NOTW got closed down and nobody seriously thinks the print press has the sway it had in eighties or early-mid nineties. Everything is online now and Fleet Street papers have no hegemony over reporting, it is splintered and people take their reportage from a variety of sources, albeit unfortunately probably less objective and neutral than in previous times.

Miliband also stood up to the energy companies and vested interests in a manner which no other contemporary politician could claim to.

Where I think we may agree is that, in an unintended way, he tried to set a tone of populism. His populism was of the left, of social justice, of equity, of resentment against vested interests, against certain institutions.

The problem was that his arguments were equally able to be voiced by the right. Against the EU, against the welfare state, against the public sector.

Can’t believe you forgot about the EdStone!

[Smartie]

Can’t believe you forgot about the EdStone!

That was horrific.

I felt a wee bit sorry for him when he stumbled off the step on Question Time but the unveiling of the Stone was only ever beaten in the cringeworthiness stakes when those Tories (Hague?) wore baseball caps to appeal cool in an attempt to relate to younger voters.

[Ozyhibby]

Problem with Milliband was that he was always at the mercy of the daily news cycle. He was always reacting to things which made him look like a populist. He had no team behind him making sure he didn’t constantly walk in to traps.
People forget that when Blair took over Labour it was as part of a large team which managed his every move. Milliband had a chance to do that with his brother and other younger Labour Mp’s at the time but decided to go on his own with the unions backing him. It didn’t go well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Smartie]

Problem with Milliband was that he was always at the mercy of the daily news cycle. He was always reacting to things which made him look like a populist. He had no team behind him making sure he didn’t constantly walk in to traps.
People forget that when Blair took over Labour it was as part of a large team which managed his every move. Milliband has a chance to do that with his brother and other younger Labour Mp’s at the time but decided to go on his own with the unions backing him. It didn’t go well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Labour’s biggest problem over the past few years is that they haven’t had an Alastair Campbell.

He’s certainly a divisive figure but he understood the public and the importance of winning. I’ve gone from despising him to really quite liking him.

[Ozyhibby]

Labour’s biggest problem over the past few years is that they haven’t had an Alastair Campbell.

He’s certainly a divisive figure but he understood the public and the importance of winning. I’ve gone from despising him to really quite liking him.

Iraq killed the new Labour project. None of them ever really recovered. Nor did they deserve to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mibbes Aye]

Can’t believe you forgot about the EdStone!

But, but, but :greengrin

He was the first pol to successfully take on the Murdoch empire and played his part in the News of the World closing down. He was the only pol I think who stood up to the Daily Mail when they called his dad a traitor, disgusting but Ed stood up and made the case for his father, a fine and respected intellectual, and refuted the disgraceful and horrible invective. He was the first leader to call out energy companies for utter mismanagement and misappropriation of our energy bills.

He is a bright guy, a decent guy, a likeable guy. Sincere, clever and self-deprecating.

Given it looks like we have a choice between Johnson and Corbyn, I would be backing Ed.

The stone wasn’t great though :greengrin

[Bristolhibby]

It’s totally mental...how you can just cook up cutting fares by a third, making travel free for under 16’s and then pretend it’s all costed and affordable is beyond me.

Waspi women, £55bn? No problem.

Nationalise huge swathes of industry? £xxbn. No problem.

Free broadband for all. £25bn - £150bn depending on who you listen to. No problem.

HS2? No problem.

Free double glazing and boilers for some, everyone else can get them to with grants and interest free loans. No problem.

Free uni education and 6 years free education for everyone else. No problem.

5% pay rise for all public workers. Even more billions. No problem.

The list goes on and on...so much so they haven’t actually worked out what they are going to spend all the billions on!

We really have travelled into the twilight zone in this election.

Radical is one way of describing it...not quite the term I would use though.

Why not? We live in a Post Truth World.

You can say anything and not be held to account.

Interesting article.

https://www.vice.com/en_uk/article/mbm8p3/boris-johnson-lies-media-bbc?utm_campaign=sharebutton&fbclid=IwAR2cAi9tfCe0MzMda12bEAiYAYE1rDHViNLlP4KqD 9MRDe4Olvs6lqQifzI

J

[Smartie]

Iraq killed the new Labour project. None of them ever really recovered. Nor did they deserve to.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I wouldn't really argue with that, although the price we have all had to pay as a result has been massive, as there wasn't anything decent to replace it (you could argue that North of the border the independence movement has given many of us hope).