Hibs Fans Most Critical in the League ?

[Sammy7nil]

I have heard lots of pundits say Jack has to get off to a good start he needs fans onside as it is a tough gig at ER when things don't go well. Whilst I think Hibs fans can be tough i don't think we are any worse than other clubs.

Hecky did get a tough time, I also recall Tudor Jones saying the whole team were terrified playing at ER when he was there. I know I know Tudor deserved it :wink:

What do you think are we too tough?

[bigwheel]

I once heard Ian Murray say that Hibs fans were known to be a tough crowd..amazing if we get on side early on..but if a player doesn’t get off to a good start, a really hard crowd to please ...

[Centre Hawf]

I don't think we're an opinion changing crowd. I think once you've been written off you tend to stay that way until you go. You can have good weeks or good runs but ultimately it will go back to the criticism eventually.

Not sure though if that's the same for other fans to be fair and not really the same as "tough to please"

[Golden Bear]

You only need to be a regular on Hibs Net to realise that some of the posters actually take more delight when things don't go as they should.

[Since452]

I think it's doubly hard to please the Hibs support as we have high expectations. We expect our team to win games but we also expect them to play with a certain style "the Hibs way" or whatever you want to call it. Definitely the most critical outside of Glasgow

[theonlywayisup]

I do feel we've got a vocal minority who are hypercritical. I would love it if they stayed away.

[CloudSquall]

Take a look at an Aberdeen forum when things are going slightly off plan and you'll see it isn't all that bad over here.

It always pisses me off when players or pundits say it's a tough crowd at ER when we're seeing half arsed performances against teams on half the budget.

We're tough on the team when they go out and get horsed off of the likes of Livingston or Ross County?

Dam ****ing right we should be.

The likes of Vela shouldn't ever think it's acceptable to be putting in half arsed jogs back while the opposition rattle in another goal.

[eastterrace]

Take a look at an Aberdeen forum when things are going slightly off plan and you'll see it isn't all that bad over here.

It always pisses me off when players or pundits say it's a tough crowd at ER when we're seeing half arsed performances against teams on half the budget.

We're tough on the team when they go out and get horsed off of the likes of Livingston or Ross County?

Dam ****ing right we should be.

The likes of Vela shouldn't ever think it's acceptable to be putting in half arsed jogs back while the opposition rattle in another goal.
Ah vela he will be found out if not already has by the new manager.

[Lago]

You only need to be a regular on Hibs Net to realise that some of the posters actually take more delight when things don't go as they should.
That's true unfortunately.

[Sioux]

Take a look at an Aberdeen forum when things are going slightly off plan and you'll see it isn't all that bad over here.

It always pisses me off when players or pundits say it's a tough crowd at ER when we're seeing half arsed performances against teams on half the budget.

We're tough on the team when they go out and get horsed off of the likes of Livingston or Ross County?

Dam ****ing right we should be.

The likes of Vela shouldn't ever think it's acceptable to be putting in half arsed jogs back while the opposition rattle in another goal.

The difference between a player earning £1,000 per week and one earning £2,000 is almost negligible.

[rcarter1]

Hearts have done well at home for ages so their home crowd has kept it together, but recently they have been garbage at home and I doubt that tynecastle is any easier than ER when team is Humpty. Same with Aberdeen. Have no feeling for how the Killie/Motherwell/Dundee united etc respond to gash performances

[Michael]

It probably seems like we're a tough crowd because we under perform so often. We have the 3rd/4th biggest support in the country - yet how often do we finish top 4?

So many bottom six (or lower) seasons.

[HibeeHibernian4]

It probably seems like we're a tough crowd because we under perform so often. We have the 3rd/4th biggest support in the country - yet how often do we finish top 4?

So many bottom six (or lower) seasons.

Football isn't decided by that, we have no right to finish in the top 4.

[Onion]

I have heard lots of pundits say Jack has to get off to a good start he needs fans onside as it is a tough gig at ER when things don't go well. Whilst I think Hibs fans can be tough i don't think we are any worse than other clubs.

Hecky did get a tough time, I also recall Tudor Jones saying the whole team were terrified playing at ER when he was there. I know I know Tudor deserved it :wink:

What do you think are we too tough?

Hibs fans have supported the club in droves since 2014, finally got the SC monkey off our backs and for once in a long time punched our weight under Lennon. Having done all that, we've quite rightly no wish to see the club mis-managed and £££ pissed away on crap managers and crap players... yet again. We've had our fill of that.

[lord bunberry]

I think Easter Road can at times be unforgiving, but there’s no other team in the country that’s underachieved more than us. When a manager comes in and gets it right Easter Road is one of the most intimidating stadiums in the country for away teams.

[Fife-Hibee]

I once heard Ian Murray say that Hibs fans were known to be a tough crowd..amazing if we get on side early on..but if a player doesn’t get off to a good start, a really hard crowd to please ...

We're certainly tough. Turning up week after week despite a disproportionate level of disappointments for our club size.

[Sammy7nil]

Football isn't decided by that, we have no right to finish in the top 4.

Tell that to Celtic, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Barca, Man City etc money counts for almost everything in football with the odd couple of blips along the wah.

[The 90+2]

Of course we aren’t. The amount of **** we’ve had to endure while being told to be patient it’s unbelievable we get the crowds we do. We must be the biggest underachieving team in the country.

[Fife-Hibee]

The difference between a player earning £1,000 per week and one earning £2,000 is almost negligible.

In that case, we should just start spending half on wages than we're spending now on the first time and invest the rest in youth development.

[OxoHibby]

Take a look at an Aberdeen forum when things are going slightly off plan and you'll see it isn't all that bad over here.

It always pisses me off when players or pundits say it's a tough crowd at ER when we're seeing half arsed performances against teams on half the budget.

We're tough on the team when they go out and get horsed off of the likes of Livingston or Ross County?

Dam ****ing right we should be.

The likes of Vela shouldn't ever think it's acceptable to be putting in half arsed jogs back while the opposition rattle in another goal.

This sums it up for me. We are a big club who have under performed for years. The uglies lose a few games and are up in arms if they don't win the league never mind relegation fodder

[JoeT]

Hecky got loads of time before we decided he was a muppet. We surely aren't that bad....so long as we get 15 points from the next 5 games then I'm happy Jack can stay to the end of the season 😊

[greenlex]

Just Hermit and a handful of others.

[Speedway]

Football isn't decided by that, we have no right to finish in the top 4.

That's how the under achievers think, certainly.

We have every right to finish top 4 and every season we don't is a failure from a league perspective.

[Michael]

Football isn't decided by that, we have no right to finish in the top 4.

How's it decided then?

more supporters -> more money -> better players -> better performance

If we're not a top 4 club then we're doing something wrong.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Tell that to Celtic, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Barca, Man City etc money counts for almost everything in football with the odd couple of blips along the wah.

The situations of those clubs you've named compared to ours could not be more different. :confused:

[Sammy7nil]

The situations of those clubs you've named compared to ours could not be more different. :confused:

Do they all out perform others in their leagues due to money 💰?
Money buys success in football EVERYONE knows that.

[Fife-Hibee]

Money buys success in football EVERYONE knows that.

Unless it's us. That's why we're so "critical". Getting regular pastings from clubs we outspend season after season isn't on.

[Sammy7nil]

Unless it's us. That's why we're so "critical". Getting regular pastings from clubs we outspend season after season isn't on.

I totally agree we have under performed massively for forty odd years with the odd blip. We should expect a ten year top six run but we end up with a relegation every ten years.

[Captain Trips]

No worse than any other club of this size.

[lord bunberry]

No worse than any other club of this size.
I agree up to a point, but the two other clubs of our size, Aberdeen and hearts have been more successful over the years than us. We can argue why that is, but the fact remains we are the biggest underachievers in Scotland. The ugly sisters are in their own league and below that we have ourselves hearts and the sheep. Why is it always us that fail to have a period of domination over the other two? We manage a season at best. Why?

[660]

This is the worst thread I’ve ever read on any forum

[GibbytheHibby2]

I have heard lots of pundits say Jack has to get off to a good start he needs fans onside as it is a tough gig at ER when things don't go well. Whilst I think Hibs fans can be tough i don't think we are any worse than other clubs.

Hecky did get a tough time, I also recall Tudor Jones saying the whole team were terrified playing at ER when he was there. I know I know Tudor deserved it :wink:

What do you think are we too tough?

In my experience Hibs are more tolerant of players who may be less skilful but who give a **** and try hard. If you play for the jersey / for the fans, you will get plenty of slack. If you’re a cocky bugger, then you better live it on the pitch or you’re an easy target.

When we lost over two legs to the Hun we applauded the team because they tried hard. We even applauded a team we’ll beat by celtc in a SC final, because they tried harder than the imposters a year earlier.

We can forgive effort, but don’t try and pull the wool over our eyes!

[NAE NOOKIE]

I agree up to a point, but the two other clubs of our size, Aberdeen and hearts have been more successful over the years than us. We can argue why that is, but the fact remains we are the biggest underachievers in Scotland. The ugly sisters are in their own league and below that we have ourselves hearts and the sheep. Why is it always us that fail to have a period of domination over the other two? We manage a season at best. Why?

Absolutely this. Of the big 4 clubs in Scotland outside of the uglies ( Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd ) we underachieve more than any of the others, that's probably why our fans seem more moany than the other clubs. Hibs have the potential to do far better than we do and its hard not to be disappointed by it. Since my first Hibs game in 1975 this is the respective records of the 4 clubs.

Aberdeen. League wins 3 ... Scottish cups 5 ... League cups 5 ... CWC 1 ..... never relegated

Dundee Utd. League wins 1 ... Scottish cup 2 ... League cup 2 .... relegated once

Hearts ... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 3 ... League cup 0 ..... relegated 4 times

Hibs .... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 1 ... League cup 2 ... relegated 3 times

It has to be said that Hearts record is pretty pish as well ... their only real boast over us being that the SC is the more prestigious trophy between the two cup competitions, but they have been relegated more than we have.

At the end of the day the fact that arguably the 4th best supported club in the country, and potentially the 3rd, over the last 44 years has entered 132 domestic competitions and won 6 times if you count 1st division / championship can only be viewed as a bloody poor return.

[lord bunberry]

Absolutely this. Of the big 4 clubs in Scotland outside of the uglies ( Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd ) we underachieve more than any of the others, that's probably why our fans seem more moany than the other clubs. Hibs have the potential to do far better than we do and its hard not to be disappointed by it. Since my first Hibs game in 1975 this is the respective records of the 4 clubs.

Aberdeen. League wins 3 ... Scottish cups 5 ... League cups 5 ... CWC 1 ..... never relegated

Dundee Utd. League wins 1 ... Scottish cup 2 ... League cup 2 .... relegated once

Hearts ... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 3 ... League cup 0 ..... relegated 4 times

Hibs .... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 1 ... League cup 2 ... relegated 3 times

It has to be said that Hearts record is pretty pish as well ... their only real boast over us being that the SC is the more prestigious trophy between the two cup competitions, but they have been relegated more than we have.

At the end of the day the fact that arguably the 4th best supported club in the country, and potentially the 3rd, over the last 44 years has entered 132 domestic competitions and won 6 times if you count 1st division / championship can only be viewed as a bloody poor return.
Yes and that’s my point. When we were relegated the last time I looked at the league containing us hearts and the huns and I thought we would be the last of the three to be promoted. I love hibs and I love being a hibby, but we chronically underachieve. I’m starting to believe that it’s just destiny and it’s the way it’s always going to be.

[Sammy7nil]

This is the worst thread I’ve ever read on any forum

Thanks for this I am powd vey vey powd :greengrin

[bigwheel]

Absolutely this. Of the big 4 clubs in Scotland outside of the uglies ( Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd ) we underachieve more than any of the others, that's probably why our fans seem more moany than the other clubs. Hibs have the potential to do far better than we do and its hard not to be disappointed by it. Since my first Hibs game in 1975 this is the respective records of the 4 clubs.

Aberdeen. League wins 3 ... Scottish cups 5 ... League cups 5 ... CWC 1 ..... never relegated

Dundee Utd. League wins 1 ... Scottish cup 2 ... League cup 2 .... relegated once

Hearts ... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 3 ... League cup 0 ..... relegated 4 times

Hibs .... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 1 ... League cup 2 ... relegated 3 times

It has to be said that Hearts record is pretty pish as well ... their only real boast over us being that the SC is the more prestigious trophy between the two cup competitions, but they have been relegated more than we have.

At the end of the day the fact that arguably the 4th best supported club in the country, and potentially the 3rd, over the last 44 years has entered 132 domestic competitions and won 6 times if you count 1st division / championship can only be viewed as a bloody poor return.

Tbf. Hasn’t it been once or even twice that Aberdeen / Dundee Utd we’re both saved from relegation through league restructure ??

[Sammy7nil]

Tbf. Hasn’t it been once or even twice that Aberdeen / Dundee Utd we’re both saved from relegation through league restructure ??

I am not sure but Hibs were :greengrin

[theonlywayisup]

Absolutely this. Of the big 4 clubs in Scotland outside of the uglies ( Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd ) we underachieve more than any of the others, that's probably why our fans seem more moany than the other clubs. Hibs have the potential to do far better than we do and its hard not to be disappointed by it. Since my first Hibs game in 1975 this is the respective records of the 4 clubs.

Aberdeen. League wins 3 ... Scottish cups 5 ... League cups 5 ... CWC 1 ..... never relegated

Dundee Utd. League wins 1 ... Scottish cup 2 ... League cup 2 .... relegated once

Hearts ... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 3 ... League cup 0 ..... relegated 4 times

Hibs .... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 1 ... League cup 2 ... relegated 3 times

It has to be said that Hearts record is pretty pish as well ... their only real boast over us being that the SC is the more prestigious trophy between the two cup competitions, but they have been relegated more than we have.

At the end of the day the fact that arguably the 4th best supported club in the country, and potentially the 3rd, over the last 44 years has entered 132 domestic competitions and won 6 times if you count 1st division / championship can only be viewed as a bloody poor return.

Not like you to get your facts wrong. Dundee United were relegated in 1995 and also in 2016, both times the game that sent them down was held at neighbours Dundee Dens Park.

[Keith_M]

Did anybody hear the St Johnstone Fans at the weekend?

I thought WE were bad.

:greengrin

[The Leith Dutch]

Tell that to Celtic, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, Barca, Man City etc money counts for almost everything in football with the odd couple of blips along the wah.


In that case, we should just start spending half on wages than we're spending now on the first time and invest the rest in youth development.

Money is clearly relevant when it's huge sums and/or a huge difference.

The difference between a £1k a week player and a £2k a week player is negligible - both are small wages for footballers.
It's entirely possible that those same players could, with a different manager find their salaries reversed.
You've probably got more chance picking up a player who could make a difference at a club like ours paying £2k a week but it's really just a roll of the dice to an extent.

In terms of the overall budget within the league - same thing.
Being 3rd or 4th is all well and good - better chance to succeed than being 5th or 6th - but it's a marginal difference (like the £1k / £2k) in terms of what you're buying.
If we were 3rd highest and midway between the 4th placed budget and whichever of the old firm (presumably sevco?) is lower then you'd have a right to expecting something
as we'd be blowing the team in 4th out the water and having a few 10k a week players.

Money does count but only when it's significant.

[Cataplana]

Absolutely this. Of the big 4 clubs in Scotland outside of the uglies ( Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd ) we underachieve more than any of the others, that's probably why our fans seem more moany than the other clubs. Hibs have the potential to do far better than we do and its hard not to be disappointed by it. Since my first Hibs game in 1975 this is the respective records of the 4 clubs.

Aberdeen. League wins 3 ... Scottish cups 5 ... League cups 5 ... CWC 1 ..... never relegated

Dundee Utd. League wins 1 ... Scottish cup 2 ... League cup 2 .... relegated once

Hearts ... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 3 ... League cup 0 ..... relegated 4 times

Hibs .... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 1 ... League cup 2 ... relegated 3 times

It has to be said that Hearts record is pretty pish as well ... their only real boast over us being that the SC is the more prestigious trophy between the two cup competitions, but they have been relegated more than we have.

At the end of the day the fact that arguably the 4th best supported club in the country, and potentially the 3rd, over the last 44 years has entered 132 domestic competitions and won 6 times if you count 1st division / championship can only be viewed as a bloody poor return.

Microscopic differences that have no real statistical significance.

[where'stheslope]

I once heard Ian Murray say that Hibs fans were known to be a tough crowd..amazing if we get on side early on..but if a player doesn’t get off to a good start, a really hard crowd to please ...
One name Doidge, up until last week he was a whipping boy on this forum, now he's a world beater???
Just give the fans what they want and the world is a rosy place!!!!

[judas]

We are certainly the most frustrated support in the land.

Given our fanbase, financial clout and general infrastructure over the years we have underperformed against clubs of comparable status

Hearts and Aberdeen have a vastly superior Scottish Cup haul despite have being in a similar number of finals.

I guess all clubs out with the OF could claim under achievement. But Hibs have by far the strongest case in this regard.

Perhaps that’s where our fans hyper critical nature comes from.

As for me. I fully support Ross. He is already on my right side and his rejection of Hearts in our favour has fortified this position further still.

[The Leith Dutch]

Aberdeen. League wins 3 ... Scottish cups 5 ... League cups 5 ... CWC 1 ..... never relegated
Dundee Utd. League wins 1 ... Scottish cup 2 ... League cup 2 .... relegated once
Hearts ... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 3 ... League cup 0 ..... relegated 4 times
Hibs .... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 1 ... League cup 2 ... relegated 3 times


Microscopic differences that have no real statistical significance.

Versus Hearts? Yes.
Versus Aberdeen - surely a major statistical difference no?

- 3 League titles (what most clubs look at as the big success) to our zero.
- Nearly four times as many cups with one of them European and two of ours being the least good trophy to win.
- Never relegated to our 3 times.

Aberdeen have a completely different level of success to us during the period and the only way you'd say it was poor was by comparison to the Old firm during that time.

[we are hibs]

We arent.


Without doubt there are who look for any miniscule reason to have a dig at fellow Hibs fans. Its quite tedious and embarrassing in all honesty. I dont particularly care if your ultra positive or ultra negative in your general outlook. Youre a hibs fan and want them to succeed regardless of what angle you come from. We all want the same feeling leaving Easter Road. We all want to watch the same style of football. We all want to watch good players giving their all. There are people who deliberately try and claim hibs fans are terrible and they are this and that to try and wind people up.

[jgl07]

Aberdeen. League wins 3 ... Scottish cups 5 ... League cups 5 ... CWC 1 ..... never relegated
Dundee Utd. League wins 1 ... Scottish cup 2 ... League cup 2 .... relegated once
Hearts ... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 3 ... League cup 0 ..... relegated 4 times
Hibs .... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 1 ... League cup 2 ... relegated 3 times

I must have imagined Hibs winning three League Championships in five years or so. And also a couple of wins for Hearts.

You have to go back around 35 years for a League win for anyone bar Rangers or Celtc. Why count trophies won in the early 1980s but not those won in the 1940s through to the 1970s?

[HibeeHibernian4]

Absolutely this. Of the big 4 clubs in Scotland outside of the uglies ( Hibs, Hearts, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd ) we underachieve more than any of the others, that's probably why our fans seem more moany than the other clubs. Hibs have the potential to do far better than we do and its hard not to be disappointed by it. Since my first Hibs game in 1975 this is the respective records of the 4 clubs.

Aberdeen. League wins 3 ... Scottish cups 5 ... League cups 5 ... CWC 1 ..... never relegated

Dundee Utd. League wins 1 ... Scottish cup 2 ... League cup 2 .... relegated once

Hearts ... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 3 ... League cup 0 ..... relegated 4 times

Hibs .... League wins 0 ... Scottish cup 1 ... League cup 2 ... relegated 3 times

It has to be said that Hearts record is pretty pish as well ... their only real boast over us being that the SC is the more prestigious trophy between the two cup competitions, but they have been relegated more than we have.

At the end of the day the fact that arguably the 4th best supported club in the country, and potentially the 3rd, over the last 44 years has entered 132 domestic competitions and won 6 times if you count 1st division / championship can only be viewed as a bloody poor return.

That's such an arbitrary way to look at things. Hibs' success as a club isn't defined by the year you started attending.

[NAE NOOKIE]

That's such an arbitrary way to look at things. Hibs' success as a club isn't defined by the year you started attending.

No it isnt. But its as good a way to look at it as any to be honest. I didnt pick my starting point to be unfair to Hibs, it was about 2 in the morning and i couldnt be arsed to check stats for 4 clubs back to WWII or 1875 for that matter :greengrin ... hence me missing the fact that Dundee Utd have been relegated twice since 1975 and not the once I said it was.

But even if I had gone back to 1875 lets not pretend that for a club who are historically one of Scotland's 'big five' winning a major trophy once every 14 years on average is a good return, because it's not.

But its not just trophies that make a great club and when it comes to Hibs we have a brilliant and colourful history to look back on ... there's so much that's good about this club who couldnt be proud to be a supporter of it.
:thumbsup:

[Weegreenman]

I must admit there are plenty boo boys around us in the East. They just love to booooooo!

I can’t stand it.

[Tom Hart RIP]

The game after Hibs beat Naples 5-0 they lost to Morton and were booed off the park. That was 52 years ago so some things never change.

When Jimmy Nick was caretaker manager he said that the Hibs players were frightened to take chances due to crowd reaction if it didn’t come off.

[The 90+2]

One name Doidge, up until last week he was a whipping boy on this forum, now he's a world beater???
Just give the fans what they want and the world is a rosy place!!!!

To be fair to this place, many backed Doidge up top as a two and loads backed him after they heard the team last week.

[Sammy7nil]

Money is clearly relevant when it's huge sums and/or a huge difference.

The difference between a £1k a week player and a £2k a week player is negligible - both are small wages for footballers.
It's entirely possible that those same players could, with a different manager find their salaries reversed.
You've probably got more chance picking up a player who could make a difference at a club like ours paying £2k a week but it's really just a roll of the dice to an extent.

In terms of the overall budget within the league - same thing.
Being 3rd or 4th is all well and good - better chance to succeed than being 5th or 6th - but it's a marginal difference (like the £1k / £2k) in terms of what you're buying.
If we were 3rd highest and midway between the 4th placed budget and whichever of the old firm (presumably sevco?) is lower then you'd have a right to expecting something
as we'd be blowing the team in 4th out the water and having a few 10k a week players.

Money does count but only when it's significant.

I understand what you are saying but I am Sorry I disagree if you are paying more year on year it definitely should make a difference. Hibs have under achieved for about 40 out of 50 years.

[Unseen work]

Don’t know if we’re the most critical but we’re probably up there.

Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen and Hearts all have bigger budgets than us but we expect to be competing for 3rd in the league, a good cup run and all done playing good football.

[Keith_M]

Don’t know if we’re the most critical but we’re probably up there.

Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen and Hearts all have bigger budgets than us but we expect to be competing for 3rd in the league, a good cup run and all done playing good football.


What's wrong with expecting to compete for third place? Or a decent cup run?

Nobody's expecting us to actually be in the top three every year, just to be up their challenging.

[Unseen work]

What's wrong with expecting to compete for third place? Or a decent cup run?

Nobody's expecting us to actually be in the top three every year, just to be up their challenging.

Never said anything is wrong with it as I’m one that also expects a good challenge for it. I’m just saying if we finished 5th, which is where our budget would put us in the league there would be a lot of angry fans and the manager would be under pressure imo.

[SingaporeHibs]

I don’t believe we are a harder crowd to please than any other but we do have more people turning up than other under achieving clubs so any vocal dissatisfaction would sound multiplied to neutrals.
That said, there are quite a number of miserable punters in ER at every home game. I sat next to one for a number of Seasons, would be moaning before any game even kicked off. Each pre-season I would think about moving seats but thought to myself, surely he won’t renew his season ticket this year......the moaning sod was clearly as stubborn as they come and never failed to renew. Bless his miserable Hibee ways.

[B.H.F.C]

Don’t know if we’re the most critical but we’re probably up there.

Celtic, Rangers, Aberdeen and Hearts all have bigger budgets than us but we expect to be competing for 3rd in the league, a good cup run and all done playing good football.

I think the issue is that, most of the time, we don’t even put ourselves is a position where we are in line with our budget, which would be fifth. I’ve been watching Hibs for 20 years and I think we’ve probably finished in the top five half a dozen times.

Get to a position that we are doing that consistently and it would mean we would be competing for Europe regularly.

[basehibby]

We certainly have some fans who will not hesitate to register their disapproval when things are going bad - but I don't think we're worse than any other club in that respect. Perhaps as some have pointed out, this is more apparent at Hibs because we have so often underachieved as a club - Hibs fans will rightly not be impressed if we are not up there and competing in the top six and all too often we are not.

On the whole though our support is loyal to a fault. Perhaps a little over-entitled at times - ie not noisy enough for my liking against teams we expect to be beating - but on the whole a passionate and staunch support which I'm proud to be part of..

[Irish-Hibee]

We are...and I wonder how many players we've lost to other clubs because of this

[DetroitHibs]

Our average league position over the past two decades is a bottom six team, not including relegations. Fans have a right to moan.

[DH1875]

We are...and I wonder how many players we've lost to other clubs because of this

I think that's everything thats been wrong with us over the years. If these players have left because of the pressure of winning is too much then sack them. Hibs SHOULD be a top 3rd/4th team in the top division. I want winners in the team, not guys who think making top 6 is some sort of achievement.

[B.H.F.C]

We are...and I wonder how many players we've lost to other clubs because of this

Not many would be my guess. Most players that play for us, Hibs will be the biggest club they'll be at. Good players occasionally move on to better things.

Pretty rare that a player who doesn’t do well at us goes on to have a good career at a bigger club or at a higher level. There will be a few examples, but not that many in terms of how many come and go.

[DetroitHibs]

The young lads coming through should be better prepared too. They play these development games, no pressure, just enjoying the game and then don't know how to handle the pressure and fans when they play a real game.

[basehibby]

We are...and I wonder how many players we've lost to other clubs because of this

If there have been any then other clubs are welcome to them - we can do without faint hearted jessies who are scared to play in front of a crowd.

[jockodile]

There might be something in the critical nature of the suppprt but it is probably not materially different from the other clubs in the league.

Where there has been a problem over the years is the lack of killer instinct. Hibs have had a soft core and it was tolerated.

It was this that Neil Lennon was at his most successful at Hibs in reducing that. I hope Jack Ross has similar steel.

[The Leith Dutch]

I understand what you are saying but I am Sorry I disagree if you are paying more year on year it definitely should make a difference. Hibs have under achieved for about 40 out of 50 years.

Should have been clear - I don't disagree we've underachieved.
Was more making the point that money only buys success directly if it's significant money.

[The Leith Dutch]

I must have imagined Hibs winning three League Championships in five years or so. And also a couple of wins for Hearts.

You have to go back around 35 years for a League win for anyone bar Rangers or Celtc. Why count trophies won in the early 1980s but not those won in the 1940s through to the 1970s?

Was responding to the poster arguing that the stats posted by the guy were materially different.
Totally agree that there's no specific reason to include the 1980s but not other years.

We have, as others pointed out however, not achieved as much as we probably should have trophy wise.
Easy way to put the debate to bed would be a period of sustained success and trophies :D

[Onion]

Our average league position over the past two decades is a bottom six team, not including relegations. Fans have a right to moan.

Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

[NAE NOOKIE]

Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

Aye? What did we win under them excluding the 1st division / championship which you would expect any Hibs manager to achieve with the opposition we had to face. That's not to say they were bad managers, but they hardly support the case that the above failings you point out are the fault of any of the managers we have had ...... Stubbs was a quiet thoughtful manager, but I defy anybody to say they've seen a Hibs team with a better team spirit than his had or that they were a soft touch.

Having said that, there does seem to be something about this club which guarantees that 9 times out of 10 we will implode when it matters the most, no matter how good or tough a team we have. Our losing record ratio in cup finals has to be approaching some sort of world record and there are few clubs who could lose a second leg play off match at home with a 2 - 0 first leg win in its pocket, not even picking up a single yellow card in the process.

The thing that has always made a difference at Hibs has been the owner / chairman. Harry Swan, Tom Hart and to a lesser extent Tom Farmer. For a club like us a visionary owner is as important, perhaps more important, than who the manager is or what players we have. Its been a long long time since Hibs have had that type of owner .... Farmer was one in off field matters, but a 'haul' of two trophies in a 25 year tenure is not the stuff of legends .... or perhaps it is, which is a damning indictment of the historic on field efforts of the club.

If I do have a concern about Ron Gordon its that so far he hasn't given me the impression that he will be the dynamic go getting person this club needs to achieve what its capable of ... his approach seems to be very understated and concentrated just as much on Hibs as social asset for the community as Hibs successful club on the park ... I want a trophy room stuffed with awards from the SFA / SPFL ... and in my dreams UEFA :greengrin .... not the Scottish government and ECC for our good works ... I have a season ticket for Easter Road and not Social Bite for a reason.

There are three areas the Ron Gordon era Hibernian football club has to concentrate on if we are to progress and I'll list them in what I think are the order of importance.

1) The income of this club has to be raised to a level where the average first team players basic salary is a minimum of £3,000 per week ... IMO that is the level where we will be able to attract players above the standard we have just now provided we back it up with a generous bonus scheme .. I know that will involve a basic outlay of around £3,500,000 a year for a 22 man first team squad, but it has to be an ambition.

2) Since the HTC was opened 12 years ago I am seriously struggling to think of one regular first team player it has produced with the exception of Ryan Porteous ... yes there have been a few who have made the first team and hung about the fringes like Fraser Murray and Oli Shaw, but nobody apart from Porteous has looked like becoming a regular starter. Any club looking for a regular conveyor belt of talent from its youth program will always be disappointed ... even Man Utd and Dundee Utd will attest to that ... but one player in 12 years is nothing short of abject failure and there has to be questions asked as to why that is.

3) And this is probably the most contentious one ... We must continue to improve the stadium, the ambition for this club must be to eventually have a fully enclosed ground with one way or another the corners filled in and a roof that's joined up all the way round the stadium. I know its down the list compared to the team on the park, but it all goes towards an ambition to make this club everything it can and should be and it shouldn't be neglected or ignored.

At the very least I want Ron Gordon when he stands up at the AGM in the new year to express an ambition that this is what he wants for the club. I have a horrible feeling I'm going to be disappointed.

[Paisley Hibby]

Don't think we're worse in general than any other team. But what we ARE bad for, in my opinion, is getting on the backs of particular players who the consensus agrees are useless/not hibs class/a wage thief/slow as a week in jail/worst ever in a hibs shirt (delete as applicable). Ironically, these are often the very players who are doing the important unseen work creating space for others to do the creative stuff. The best example I can think of is Stuart Lovell but more recent ones include Milligan and Whittaker.

[Cataplana]

What's hacking me off is the total absence of objective evidence to back up this claim.

R. Meldrew

[The Leith Dutch]

Don't think we're worse in general than any other team. But what we ARE bad for, in my opinion, is getting on the backs of particular players who the consensus agrees are useless/not hibs class/a wage thief/slow as a week in jail/worst ever in a hibs shirt (delete as applicable). Ironically, these are often the very players who are doing the important unseen work creating space for others to do the creative stuff. The best example I can think of is Stuart Lovell but more recent ones include Milligan and Whittaker.

Nish springs to mind there too.
I remember him getting dog's abuse in a game at ER and you could see the nerves coming into his play.
He miscontrolled a couple of passes badly after some particularly vitriolic abuse.

Seems like a mad thing to do to me - shouting at your own players.

The bit about "wage thief" (or it's companion "imposter") also bugs me.
I've seen some poor players in a Hibs shirt but I seriously doubt many of them were doing it deliberately.

Off the top of my head I can think of Matt Doherty as a player who was maybe taking the piss and not trying.
Most of them were just players with limitations.

[Golden Bear]

Nish springs to mind there too.
I remember him getting dog's abuse in a game at ER and you could see the nerves coming into his play.
He miscontrolled a couple of passes badly after some particularly vitriolic abuse.

Seems like a mad thing to do to me - shouting at your own players.

The bit about "wage thief" (or it's companion "imposter") also bugs me.
I've seen some poor players in a Hibs shirt but I seriously doubt many of them were doing it deliberately.

Off the top of my head I can think of Matt Doherty as a player who was maybe taking the piss and not trying.
Most of them were just players with limitations.

I remember a game at Rugby Park when Colin Nish was being subjected to so much abuse from so called "Hibs fans" that he almost willed the Manager to sub him, which he eventually did.

[The Leith Dutch]

I remember a game at Rugby Park when Colin Nish was being subjected to so much abuse from so called "Hibs fans" that he almost willed the Manager to sub him, which he eventually did.

10th on the all time SPL scorers list too. And one of the only two players in the top 10 (Michael Higdon) never to have played for either of the ugly sisters.
Clearly wanted to make it work at Hibs too.

[Since452]

Don't think we're worse in general than any other team. But what we ARE bad for, in my opinion, is getting on the backs of particular players who the consensus agrees are useless/not hibs class/a wage thief/slow as a week in jail/worst ever in a hibs shirt (delete as applicable). Ironically, these are often the very players who are doing the important unseen work creating space for others to do the creative stuff. The best example I can think of is Stuart Lovell but more recent ones include Milligan and Whittaker.

Stevie Mallan too which is unbelievable

[DH1875]

10th on the all time SPL scorers list too. And one of the only two players in the top 10 (Michael Higdon) never to have played for either of the ugly sisters.
Clearly wanted to make it work at Hibs too.

Could be wrong but is he not a Hibs fan too?

[The Leith Dutch]

Could be wrong but is he not a Hibs fan too?

That was always my understanding.
Sometimes that brings some odd nervousness too - always felt that was an issue with Danny Swanson too.

[Iggy Pope]

Could be wrong but is he not a Hibs fan too?

He is, and a nice big fellah with it. Currently has a role coaching at the club.

[jgl07]

Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

And all they won with Hibs was a second tier championship each.

Alex Miller, John Collins and Alan Stubbs have won actual silverware.

[HibeeHibernian4]

Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

And look what they have to show for it, a second division title apiece.

Meanwhile, in the real world where snarling bullies don't actually prosper merely by being snarling bullies, nice guys like Stubbs and Miller have won Hibs major honours.

[Hibeesmad]

Apart from the odd hiccup of success, Hibs record over the last 30 - 40 years has been pathetic. IMO it has much to do with the culture of the club - invariably soft, weak, pretty, boy-band, meek, accommodating and accepting. So when Hibs fans demand more than mediocrity, the team/club are usually unable to deliver.

Neil Lennon and Red Lex are among the few managers who had a raging winning mentality and the gravitas to make a difference.

And people still go on about them as if they preferred Butcher.

[Smartie]

I remember a game at Rugby Park when Colin Nish was being subjected to so much abuse from so called "Hibs fans" that he almost willed the Manager to sub him, which he eventually did.

I remember a game at Rugby Park when Colin Nish was playing for Killie, and he was everything that we, as a team, were screaming out for at the time.

Nish wasn’t a bad player for us at all but he had a few stinkers, and we certainly helped contribute towards him maybe not quite achieving what he could/ should have with us.

[Keith_M]

As most of our older Fans will remember....

If the old North Stand* didn't like you, they made it very obvious (F'n booo!!!!), and the most memorable signing to win them over was Jackie Mac.

He had the misfortune to arrive at Hibs as part of a transfer deal that took Saint Patrick of Stanton to the Lesser Greens, so a lot of bitter feeling and resentment remained. Jackie won the Hibs support over big style and remains one of my favourite ever Hibbies... even though he had the misfortune to arrive at Hibs at the beginning of our slide into a decade of mediocrity.



* It was actually the North wing of the Main Stand, but everybody called it the North Stand

[Lancs Harp]

Aye? What did we win under them excluding the 1st division / championship which you would expect any Hibs manager to achieve with the opposition we had to face. That's not to say they were bad managers, but they hardly support the case that the above failings you point out are the fault of any of the managers we have had ...... Stubbs was a quiet thoughtful manager, but I defy anybody to say they've seen a Hibs team with a better team spirit than his had or that they were a soft touch.

Having said that, there does seem to be something about this club which guarantees that 9 times out of 10 we will implode when it matters the most, no matter how good or tough a team we have. Our losing record ratio in cup finals has to be approaching some sort of world record and there are few clubs who could lose a second leg play off match at home with a 2 - 0 first leg win in its pocket, not even picking up a single yellow card in the process.

The thing that has always made a difference at Hibs has been the owner / chairman. Harry Swan, Tom Hart and to a lesser extent Tom Farmer. For a club like us a visionary owner is as important, perhaps more important, than who the manager is or what players we have. Its been a long long time since Hibs have had that type of owner .... Farmer was one in off field matters, but a 'haul' of two trophies in a 25 year tenure is not the stuff of legends .... or perhaps it is, which is a damning indictment of the historic on field efforts of the club.

If I do have a concern about Ron Gordon its that so far he hasn't given me the impression that he will be the dynamic go getting person this club needs to achieve what its capable of ... his approach seems to be very understated and concentrated just as much on Hibs as social asset for the community as Hibs successful club on the park ... I want a trophy room stuffed with awards from the SFA / SPFL ... and in my dreams UEFA :greengrin .... not the Scottish government and ECC for our good works ... I have a season ticket for Easter Road and not Social Bite for a reason.

There are three areas the Ron Gordon era Hibernian football club has to concentrate on if we are to progress and I'll list them in what I think are the order of importance.

1) The income of this club has to be raised to a level where the average first team players basic salary is a minimum of £3,000 per week ... IMO that is the level where we will be able to attract players above the standard we have just now provided we back it up with a generous bonus scheme .. I know that will involve a basic outlay of around £3,500,000 a year for a 22 man first team squad, but it has to be an ambition.

2) Since the HTC was opened 12 years ago I am seriously struggling to think of one regular first team player it has produced with the exception of Ryan Porteous ... yes there have been a few who have made the first team and hung about the fringes like Fraser Murray and Oli Shaw, but nobody apart from Porteous has looked like becoming a regular starter. Any club looking for a regular conveyor belt of talent from its youth program will always be disappointed ... even Man Utd and Dundee Utd will attest to that ... but one player in 12 years is nothing short of abject failure and there has to be questions asked as to why that is.

3) And this is probably the most contentious one ... We must continue to improve the stadium, the ambition for this club must be to eventually have a fully enclosed ground with one way or another the corners filled in and a roof that's joined up all the way round the stadium. I know its down the list compared to the team on the park, but it all goes towards an ambition to make this club everything it can and should be and it shouldn't be neglected or ignored.

At the very least I want Ron Gordon when he stands up at the AGM in the new year to express an ambition that this is what he wants for the club. I have a horrible feeling I'm going to be disappointed.

Thats a cracking post fella but personally I'd substitute number three for "match day experience" of which stadium improvements would be part of.

[Dashing Bob S]

We've underachieved. We should never be out the top five and always be battling for third. And if the huns or Celtic have a crisis session ready to pounce. I would say the same for Hearts and Aberdeen.

[HibeeHibernian4]

We've underachieved. We should never be out the top five and always be battling for third. And if the huns or Celtic have a crisis session ready to pounce. I would say the same for Hearts and Aberdeen.

So by that logic, the top five in the league should never, ever change from Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen?

Even though this hasn't happened since the 2004/05 season.