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Since452
14-11-2019, 06:28 AM
When asked who was the best manager he played under - Twitter.

"To be honest, it will sound like sitting on the fence I know, I enjoyed parts of all of them! Best on the training ground for sessions and learning was Paul though and he was the least successful!"

No surprise as he is widely regarded as an excellent coach. Maybe suited to that instead of manager.

Niffy
14-11-2019, 06:49 AM
Makes you wonder learning what ???

No evidence of amazing skill or knowledge on the pitch.

I mind when we ran a family pub, customers always said this lass was the best barmaid ever.
Turns out she was giving out free booze all the time.
That’s why she was the best barmaid.

So being best , but best why ???

Viva_Palmeiras
14-11-2019, 06:58 AM
Hecky will in time admit he should not have given out those tequila shots.

ian cruise
14-11-2019, 08:30 AM
Looking at the St Johnstone game the main failing with Heckingbottom during his time here was his tactics. Play two upfront and have a go and he'd probably have been much more successful. Unfortunately he was too afraid to lose games and it's a massive failing as a, manager if you can't get the tactics right. I don't find it hard to believe he was excellent on the training ground, there were plenty stories during his time that players liked working with them. He's probably ideal for someone as a youth academy or sporting director.

McKenzie
14-11-2019, 08:37 AM
Makes you wonder learning what ???

No evidence of amazing skill or knowledge on the pitch.

I mind when we ran a family pub, customers always said this lass was the best barmaid ever.
Turns out she was giving out free booze all the time.
That’s why she was the best barmaid.

So being best , but best why ???

It literally says it in the quote. Best for quality of training sessions and learning eg developing players. It’s not always easy when you’re trying to implement a style which is completely different to what’s went before as well as gelling a new team together.

Guy tried his best, just didn’t work out for him

McKenzie
14-11-2019, 08:38 AM
Looking at the St Johnstone game the main failing with Heckingbottom during his time here was his tactics. Play two upfront and have a go and he'd probably have been much more successful. Unfortunately he was too afraid to lose games and it's a massive failing as a, manager if you can't get the tactics right. I don't find it hard to believe he was excellent on the training ground, there were plenty stories during his time that players liked working with them. He's probably ideal for someone as a youth academy or sporting director.

Correct. He needed somewhere more experienced beside him who could guide him through games as he is clearly a very knowledgeable coach.

gorgie greens
14-11-2019, 08:39 AM
bit unsure about this as I heard that they never did set pieces this season at all ,or spoken about the opposition prior to playing them and it was all about do our job and let the opposition worry about us

Allant1981
14-11-2019, 08:51 AM
bit unsure about this as I heard that they never did set pieces this season at all ,or spoken about the opposition prior to playing them and it was all about do our job and let the opposition worry about us

Bartley hasnt been here this season though so he is basing it on the back end of last season

The Captain....
14-11-2019, 09:27 AM
It's strange how highly regarded Heckingbottom is by the players/ex players Usually when results are as poor players will blame the manager as the alternative is that the blame lies with them. Generalising maybe but its often a truism.

A common theme from supporters, that I agree with, is that he seemed to talk a good game but everyone struggled to see any of the things he talked about being played out on the pitch. There was some sort of disconnect between ideas and execution. I've no doubt Heckingbottom was a decent bloke who treated the players well but I find this insistence that he was a good coach hard to swallow, as the evidence of my eyes (when I didn't have my head in my hands) told me something completely different. The team set up was a mess..without the ball we were shapeless and.our formation didn't seem to accommodate our better players in their best positions. Ex and current pros I've spoken to were also pretty damning on the team set up. Maybe I'm missing something on Heckingbottom but I cant see how he was a good coach at all.






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ian cruise
14-11-2019, 09:30 AM
It's strange how highly regarded Heckingbottom is by the players/ex players Usually when results are as poor players will blame the manager as the alternative is that the blame lies with them. Generalising maybe but its often a truism.

A common theme from supporters, that I agree with, is that he seemed to talk a good game but everyone struggled to see any of the things he talked about being played out on the pitch. There was some sort of disconnect between ideas and execution. I've no doubt Heckingbottom was a decent bloke who treated the players well but I find this insistence that he was a good coach hard to swallow, as the evidence of my eyes (when I didn't have my head in my hands) told me something completely different. The team set up was a mess..without the ball we were shapeless and.our formation didn't seem to accommodate our better players in their best positions. Ex and current pros I've spoken to were also pretty damning on the team set up. Maybe I'm missing something on Heckingbottom but I cant see how he was a good coach at all.






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If the players are talking about coaching to improve skill and fitness and he's bringing new ideas and keeping it varied rather than the same old stuff they've been doing for years you can see how they'd feel they were benefiting individually. They're maybe not talking about tactical coaching and thinking about their own individual improvements.

jacomo
14-11-2019, 09:46 AM
It literally says it in the quote. Best for quality of training sessions and learning eg developing players. It’s not always easy when you’re trying to implement a style which is completely different to what’s went before as well as gelling a new team together.

Guy tried his best, just didn’t work out for him


I’m struggling to think of a single player who noticeably improved under Hecky. The players might have enjoyed going to work, but what did it produce? Certainly none of our younger players have developed under his charge.

lucky
14-11-2019, 09:50 AM
Bartley seems to be in the press every week talking about Hibs. I’d be pissed off if an ex Old Firm player who was now at Hibs talked constantly about their old club. He should be concentrating on his new club instead looking backwards all the time.

Vault Boy
14-11-2019, 09:53 AM
Bartley seems to be in the press every week talking about Hibs. I’d be pissed off if an ex Old Firm player who was now at Hibs talked constantly about their old club. He should be concentrating on his new club instead looking backwards all the time.

He's been branching out and doing a lot of media work to be fair, he's gonna be talking about more than just his current club. I'm sure Livi will be fine with it so long as he keeps performing for them!

TimeForHeroes16
14-11-2019, 09:53 AM
Didn't griffiths also come out and say Fenlon was the best coach he'd ever worked under and was owe a lot to him

Brightside
14-11-2019, 10:49 AM
bit unsure about this as I heard that they never did set pieces this season at all ,or spoken about the opposition prior to playing them and it was all about do our job and let the opposition worry about us

Dont think thats true at all. Ive watched them working on corners loads of times before he left. And the teams meetings prior to games after training was all about the oppo. He'd be probably the first manager ever to ignore the oppo!

eastcoasthibby
14-11-2019, 11:03 AM
Looking at the St Johnstone game the main failing with Heckingbottom during his time here was his tactics. Play two upfront and have a go and he'd probably have been much more successful. Unfortunately he was too afraid to lose games and it's a massive failing as a, manager if you can't get the tactics right. I don't find it hard to believe he was excellent on the training ground, there were plenty stories during his time that players liked working with them. He's probably ideal for someone as a youth academy or sporting director.

Also main failings was persistence in trying to shoehorn players into a team like Mallan and Vela ..who just don't give us enough of the attributes needed in a midfielder ....Mallan has a couple of attributes, that we can benefit from as a sub coming on in games, Vela needs to find a sharpness and awareness of how the game plays up here, both also need to find an extra yard of pace ! Hecky couldn't play 2 up front cos he wanted at least Mallan starting would love him to tell us all what he thought he gave us ..that outweighed what we lost with him playing !!

Just_Jimmy
14-11-2019, 11:05 AM
Bartley seems to be in the press every week talking about Hibs. I’d be pissed off if an ex Old Firm player who was now at Hibs talked constantly about their old club. He should be concentrating on his new club instead looking backwards all the time.Old firm sells more papers or gets more clicks than Hibs.

Hibs sells more papers or gets more clicks than livvy...

That's how it works.

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Tyler Durden
14-11-2019, 11:24 AM
bit unsure about this as I heard that they never did set pieces this season at all ,or spoken about the opposition prior to playing them and it was all about do our job and let the opposition worry about us

Can’t believe that.

Our goal at Aberdeen was a move clearly from the training ground (with a bit of luck also).

jacomo
14-11-2019, 11:25 AM
Didn't griffiths also come out and say Fenlon was the best coach he'd ever worked under and was owe a lot to him


Pat was great with Leigh to be fair. Managed him brilliantly. One of his biggest achievements imo.

ian cruise
14-11-2019, 12:17 PM
I’m struggling to think of a single player who noticeably improved under Hecky. The players might have enjoyed going to work, but what did it produce? Certainly none of our younger players have developed under his charge.

I know I've made this point before, so apologies, but I think his poor tactics will have led to an improvement in skill or fitness not being noticed. Given May only had a week with the players and the performance we witnessed in Perth I'm fairly confident the training, etc was all pretty good, it was just the tactical dude if things on match day that let us down badly. Ultimately Hecky cost himself his job with his poor decision making tactically.

ian cruise
14-11-2019, 12:21 PM
Also main failings was persistence in trying to shoehorn players into a team like Mallan and Vela ..who just don't give us enough of the attributes needed in a midfielder ....Mallan has a couple of attributes, that we can benefit from as a sub coming on in games, Vela needs to find a sharpness and awareness of how the game plays up here, both also need to find an extra yard of pace ! Hecky couldn't play 2 up front cos he wanted at least Mallan starting would love him to tell us all what he thought he gave us ..that outweighed what we lost with him playing !!

Absolutely agree, I was including team set up as tactical decision making. Same issue the English national team had for years, just because you've two players who are great in the same role doesn't mean you play them both and go out with an unbalanced team.

I actually think most, if not all of his signings will come good, they've shown it in flashes while with us, the most frustrating part of his reign for me was the insistence on trying to just shoehorn players in to the team and hope a formation could be made out of it.

patlowe
14-11-2019, 12:34 PM
It's a strange one as it was made clear to me by a first team player how much more tactical work was done under Hecky than under Lennon, ie an awful lot! But it clearly didn't translate into results and you have to wonder whether it might be better, under our current structure, for the first team manager to be more of a motivational figurehead with a simple footballing identity, backed up by a strategic/coaching team who concentrate on the minutiae.

The failure of Hecky doesn't necessarily mean his model is intrinsically wrong by the way, and the Lennon model (if we can call it that) was certainly creaking badly towards the end. But it's thrown into question any assumptions I'd made that having a manager with a laser-like focus on the detail is the only way forward for us.

007
14-11-2019, 12:42 PM
bit unsure about this as I heard that they never did set pieces this season at all ,or spoken about the opposition prior to playing them and it was all about do our job and let the opposition worry about us

Heard from who? A Jambo by any chance?

FilipinoHibs
14-11-2019, 12:56 PM
Looking at the St Johnstone game the main failing with Heckingbottom during his time here was his tactics. Play two upfront and have a go and he'd probably have been much more successful. Unfortunately he was too afraid to lose games and it's a massive failing as a, manager if you can't get the tactics right. I don't find it hard to believe he was excellent on the training ground, there were plenty stories during his time that players liked working with them. He's probably ideal for someone as a youth academy or sporting director.

Think there was too much detail and instruction. We played with an energetic gay abandon on Saturday. Bill Shankly once said football is a simple game made complicated by managers.

lord bunberry
14-11-2019, 01:17 PM
Heckingbottom obviously was a good coach with good ideas, his problem is he didn’t bring in the right players to implement what he wanted to do. When it was obvious this was the case he stubbornly carried on with tactics that weren’t working.

Since452
14-11-2019, 01:21 PM
I think he'll get a good coaching job down south. For whatever reason it's not worked as manager. Hibs and Leeds saw it very quickly and he was on the slide towards the end with Barnsley. Sure he'll realise that himself now.

Keith_M
14-11-2019, 01:51 PM
Bartley hasnt been here this season though so he is basing it on the back end of last season


Yep, and results under Hecky last season were much better than this.

W: 6, D: 4, L: 3 (league games only)


For whatever reason, it just hasn't worked out here. I'm happy he's gone but don't feel any ill will towards him.

hibeerealist
14-11-2019, 02:24 PM
Heckingbottom obviously was a good coach with good ideas, his problem is he didn’t bring in the right players to implement what he wanted to do. When it was obvious this was the case he stubbornly carried on with tactics that weren’t working.

Good post LB, agree with all of that.

davhibby
14-11-2019, 03:09 PM
bit unsure about this as I heard that they never did set pieces this season at all ,or spoken about the opposition prior to playing them and it was all about do our job and let the opposition worry about us

Set piece routines are the only thing we’ve looked good at this season so that would be surprising

Aim Here
14-11-2019, 03:24 PM
bit unsure about this as I heard that they never did set pieces this season at all ,or spoken about the opposition prior to playing them and it was all about do our job and let the opposition worry about us

I dunno about not caring about the opposition. This graphic via some Rangers twitter account suggests that we may have set up to exploit St Johnstone's weak points on Saturday

https://twitter.com/TheGersReport/status/1194399082128658432

CRAZYHIBBY
14-11-2019, 04:22 PM
Old firm sells more papers or gets more clicks than Hibs.

Hibs sells more papers or gets more clicks than livvy...

That's how it works.

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Plus hes a scottish cup winning legend

jacomo
14-11-2019, 04:24 PM
It's a strange one as it was made clear to me by a first team player how much more tactical work was done under Hecky than under Lennon, ie an awful lot! But it clearly didn't translate into results and you have to wonder whether it might be better, under our current structure, for the first team manager to be more of a motivational figurehead with a simple footballing identity, backed up by a strategic/coaching team who concentrate on the minutiae.

The failure of Hecky doesn't necessarily mean his model is intrinsically wrong by the way, and the Lennon model (if we can call it that) was certainly creaking badly towards the end. But it's thrown into question any assumptions I'd made that having a manager with a laser-like focus on the detail is the only way forward for us.


No I think you need a single voice and direction. Obviously coaches can focus on specific things but the manager has to have the full picture and be able to set the team up and get the players to execute his tactics.

It’s all about good leadership, and leadership is hard.

Irish-Hibee
14-11-2019, 05:22 PM
Hecky will in time admit he should not have given out those tequila shots.

:top marks

ancient hibee
14-11-2019, 07:38 PM
It seems to me that under Hecky the players couldn’t play because they were overburdened with tactical info.In one of his interviews Kamberi said that training under May had been good “doing normal things”.Maybe their lack of fitness/pace has been due to spending too much time standing around listening to tactical briefings :greengrin

J-C
14-11-2019, 09:30 PM
It seems to me that under Hecky the players couldn’t play because they were overburdened with tactical info.In one of his interviews Kamberi said that training under May had been good “doing normal things”.Maybe their lack of fitness/pace has been due to spending too much time standing around listening to tactical briefings :greengrin


Happiehibbie on the PM board said Heckingbottom would stop full matches in training on a regular basis to go over tactics and positional parts of the game, it was all very stop start and the players got frustrated with it, just wanted to play, maybe just tactical overload.

Brightside
15-11-2019, 10:01 AM
Happiehibbie on the PM board said Heckingbottom would stop full matches in training on a regular basis to go over tactics and positional parts of the game, it was all very stop start and the players got frustrated with it, just wanted to play, maybe just tactical overload.

The players then need a wake up call! Pep does this all the time in training. Its not a kick about down the pitz.

bingo70
15-11-2019, 10:06 AM
The players then need a wake up call! Pep does this all the time in training. Its not a kick about down the pitz.

Like everything it’s about getting the balance right.

Too stop start and players won’t be as engaged, not enough stopping and it turns into a kick around at the Pitz.

I’ve often thought managers job at a top level club isn’t about the coaching, that’s a tiny part of it. Imo the players will mostly know the things they’re being coached, it’s about motivating them and engaging with them to get the best out of the players.

Some players will enjoy the educational side of training and some won’t, I always think the chances of all players liking or dislike a certain coach is small, there’ll be a mix of some who do and some who won’t.

MWHIBBIES
15-11-2019, 10:29 AM
The players then need a wake up call! Pep does this all the time in training. Its not a kick about down the pitz.

There difference is he needs very specific players to fit his style. That's why he struggled at city before spending hundreds of millions. Hecky probably has many good ideas, just struggled to execute at Hibs.

brog
15-11-2019, 10:44 AM
bit unsure about this as I heard that they never did set pieces this season at all ,or spoken about the opposition prior to playing them and it was all about do our job and let the opposition worry about us

We had an excellent set piece move recently from a corner where Tom James had a shot touched over. Someone must have introduced that!

ancient hibee
15-11-2019, 02:44 PM
Like everything it’s about getting the balance right.

Too stop start and players won’t be as engaged, not enough stopping and it turns into a kick around at the Pitz.

I’ve often thought managers job at a top level club isn’t about the coaching, that’s a tiny part of it. Imo the players will mostly know the things they’re being coached, it’s about motivating them and engaging with them to get the best out of the players.

Some players will enjoy the educational side of training and some won’t, I always think the chances of all players liking or dislike a certain coach is small, there’ll be a mix of some who do and some who won’t.
The training/coaching of the great Liverpool teams consisted of playing five a sides.

hibee316
15-11-2019, 03:25 PM
The training/coaching of the great Liverpool teams consisted of playing five a sides.

Do you think the current Liverpool side do that though?

I'm sure all sides at the time would have done something similar, they just happened to have the best players.

Broken Gnome
15-11-2019, 09:15 PM
Do you think the current Liverpool side do that though?

I'm sure all sides at the time would have done something similar, they just happened to have the best players.

Pretty sure they said Salah's goal against Man City came about from doing drills, based around switching the play, over and over and over again.

If you're top level it's probably easier to buy into the need to make absolutely everything second nature to players. Your Scottish Premiership player on a grand a week before an away day at Hamilton is likelier to have a moan about a similar approach to training.