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Squirrel 1875
05-11-2019, 09:58 AM
Shocking comments being reported by Graeme Spiers from the mouth of our former manager. Not only did he hold the level here in disregard, but he also admitted to not knowing the game in Scotland. The signings are so bad because he thought hibs were nothing more than a lower level
League One team. Zero ambition and arrogant. How this man was hired by Dempster I don’t know.

Manager got player recruitment badly wrong

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/916d2e66-ff4a-11e9-89d5-2f6d95957dda

zlatan
05-11-2019, 10:00 AM
Shocking comments being reported by Graeme Spiers from the mouth of our former manager. Not only did he hold the level here in disregard, but he also admitted to not knowing the game in Scotland. The signings are so bad because he thought hibs were nothing more than a lower level
League One team. Zero ambition and arrogant. How this man was hired by Dempster I don’t know.

Manager got player recruitment badly wrong

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/916d2e66-ff4a-11e9-89d5-2f6d95957dda

Not subscribed, can you copy and paste the full article please

Allant1981
05-11-2019, 10:08 AM
It's simple really why he was employed, as mentioned in the article, he was thought of as one of the best up and coming managers in england, no different to jack ross coming up through the ranks in scotland and folk are clambering for him to be our new manager, he has obviously made a mistake with the level of football up here but he isnt that far off the mark really, the standard up here isnt great, not league 1 that he suggests but probably lower end championship. He is gone though and hopefully we move on to better things

Chorley Hibee
05-11-2019, 10:09 AM
To think there's people wishing him well on another thread. Good riddance to pompous ******** I say on the back of reading that.

hibbie02
05-11-2019, 10:09 AM
Shocking comments being reported by Graeme Spiers from the mouth of our former manager. Not only did he hold the level here in disregard, but he also admitted to not knowing the game in Scotland. The signings are so bad because he thought hibs were nothing more than a lower level
League One team. Zero ambition and arrogant. How this man was hired by Dempster I don’t know.

Manager got player recruitment badly wrong

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/916d2e66-ff4a-11e9-89d5-2f6d95957dda

I have to say, that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. It was bleeding obvious from the dross he signed that that was what he rated us as. In saying that, he should have been put straight on the quality required in the last 5 matches where we were playing the better teams with some ambition. Clearly that didn't alter his overall view and he carried on with the dross. I am pretty sure our recruitment team were told to back off, as Hecky had this transfer window covered. I am pretty sure the signing of Hallberg was them starting to reassert themselves.

If these are indeed the views of our ex-manager, that does put our Exec Management's judgement in serious doubt.

jacomo
05-11-2019, 10:10 AM
Well, if he thought the standard was so low, how come he and his chosen players weren’t good enough to compete?

Barman Stanton
05-11-2019, 10:13 AM
It's simple really why he was employed, as mentioned in the article, he was thought of as one of the best up and coming managers in england, no different to jack ross coming up through the ranks in scotland and folk are clambering for him to be our new manager, he has obviously made a mistake with the level of football up here but he isnt that far off the mark really, the standard up here isnt great, not league 1 that he suggests but probably lower end championship. He is gone though and hopefully we move on to better things

I think there is actually a big difference between lower half Championship and lower half League 1. The fact most of the players look no where near good enough for this level also shows Scottish football is not as bad as some would like to make out.

Bostonhibby
05-11-2019, 10:13 AM
Guessing his aspirations for his next role are not that high then, having failed to deliver much at lower half of league one level.

Club's short statement relieving him of his duties sounds about right if this is true.

Mind the door doesn't hit your head on the way out.

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Diclonius
05-11-2019, 10:13 AM
Copy paste the article please.

Keith_M
05-11-2019, 10:13 AM
So he thought the league was really poor but he was unable to put out a team that could beat them

That's quite an admission of failure.

fairafarhib
05-11-2019, 10:16 AM
We were at the Sunderland- Southend game on Saturday and both sides were poorer than Hibs.

MWHIBBIES
05-11-2019, 10:17 AM
Now I dislike him and he can gtf. Poor stuff.

jacomo
05-11-2019, 10:17 AM
ARTICLE HERE:


I spent two hours in football conversation with Paul Heckingbottom in April. He was not long in the door at Easter Road and explained to me his reasons for having gone back to university to take a BSc in sports coaching, how he might have been content to remain a youth coach all his days and why he believed “academia” — his word — was becoming increasingly important in football.

Our conversation bowled along in spate as Heckingbottom unloaded idea after idea about the ways of modern football.

What a coup it seemed for Hibs to have attracted him. Twelve months earlier he had been viewed as one of the coming men of coaching in England, having had success with Barnsley before being lured away by Leeds United. There, in February last year, Heckingbottom was taking on one of the most prestigious jobs in English football, and also one of the most notorious. He was Leeds’ ninth manager in five years before being binned like the rest of them: turfed out after four months in charge.

So it was impressive to see Heckingbottom re-enter the game at Easter Road. But, on that April afternoon, he interrupted me to say: “As a coach, you have to understand what your skill-set is, and be the best at it. Plus, at the top end, the game is all about winning, and not so much about education.”

This became the nub of it for Paul Heckingbottom. “The winning” for him came to be severely rationed at Easter Road, as Hibs boast an atrocious league record stretching back to last April. This season they have won only one of their 11 games so far in the Ladbrokes Premiership to leave them a point off the foot of the table. There was no escaping it: Heckingbottom has been prime sacking fodder for weeks, and the Hibbee faithful have not yearned for him to remain.

Two other thoughts sprang to mind about my long conversation with him, when news of his sacking emerged yesterday. The first concerned a question I put to him about the standard of the top flight in Scottish football, and where Heckingbottom would place it on quality within the league structure in England.

“Quality-wise it’s on a par with League One in England — lower half,” he replied. I was slightly startled by this, not that I hugely disagreed with him. If you exclude Celtic and Rangers, then there probably is a tranche of teams in the Scottish Premiership who are third-tier material in England. But what I do remember thinking was: is this the bar that Heckingbottom will set for Hibs on his player recruitment? Because if it is, it is a low bar.

I’m not convinced that the now former Hibs head coach called it right here. Over the summer he signed a bunch of players — Josh Vela, Christian Doidge, Tom James, Adam Jackson and more — who, on numerous occasions, have looked like English lower-league journeymen. Back in August, when Hibs lost 3-0 to Motherwell at Fir Park, I was scratching my head to work out why all Heckingbottom’s summer signings were either on the bench or not even stripped for action that afternoon. “They’re not good enough,” a seasoned Hibs watcher told me.

After that loss, Heckingbottom made the remarkable admission that he couldn’t wait for January to get new bodies in. I thought: were these recent ten weeks of summer not the time to get this done?


My second thought about my conversation with Heckingbottom in April was: just how much did he know about Scottish football, and would this be a factor? He told me: “It has been a real challenge for me, because I have gone from the Championship in England where I knew everything inside out — every manager, every player, every club, every game — to a situation here where I didn’t know the managers, their tactics, their substitution options, etc.

“In terms of Scottish football, it has been all about learning and taking in as many games as possible. I didn’t know a lot about it, being honest.”

In truth, this shouldn’t have been an insurmountable obstacle. Players and coaches change clubs and enter new environments the world over, and they simply adapt, bringing success or failure. A lack of knowledge of Scottish football should not have hindered Heckingbottom at Hibs, except in one area: in watching rival clubs and players, and assessing his own team, would he make the right judgment calls? In this context it seems he has failed.

I will be surprised if Heckingbottom is not a success once more in English football. He has proved himself there before. But at Hibs, he made some costly wrong calls, and has rightly paid for them with his job.

Cataplana
05-11-2019, 10:18 AM
Yet he still fell flat on his arse? The man learned nothing.

Scorrie
05-11-2019, 10:18 AM
Shocking comments being reported by Graeme Spiers from the mouth of our former manager. Not only did he hold the level here in disregard, but he also admitted to not knowing the game in Scotland. The signings are so bad because he thought hibs were nothing more than a lower level
League One team. Zero ambition and arrogant. How this man was hired by Dempster I don’t know.

Manager got player recruitment badly wrong

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/916d2e66-ff4a-11e9-89d5-2f6d95957dda

He did get recruitment wrong - his signings weren’t even bottom of League one standard going by his analysis. Woeful

J-C
05-11-2019, 10:20 AM
A real insight into his thoughts on us and football. Bring in lower level players who should be good enough and wing it up here with no clue about our league and other teams. I'm even more glad he's ****ed off, arrogant get

Mr Grieves
05-11-2019, 10:21 AM
Well, if he thought the standard was so low, how come he and his chosen players weren’t good enough to compete?

Because he's an absolute failure and his level is somewhere below league 1.

Allant1981
05-11-2019, 10:21 AM
I think there is actually a big difference between lower half Championship and lower half League 1. The fact most of the players look no where near good enough for this level also shows Scottish football is not as bad as some would like to make out.

I agree there is a difference, which is why I said we arent at league 1 level, probably bottom half of the championship in my opinion. Problem is there is a lot more money down there to spend so smaller teams can afford slightly better players. Fingers crossed we push on now

Smartie
05-11-2019, 10:22 AM
I think there is actually a big difference between lower half Championship and lower half League 1. The fact most of the players look no where near good enough for this level also shows Scottish football is not as bad as some would like to make out.

I also think there’s a big difference between top half Scottish premier league and bottom half, and that’s not just talking about Rangers and Celtic (this season might not back this up so far).

The teams at the bottom (such as Heckingbottom’s Hibs team) are about bottom half of league 1 standard.

The top half are much higher, and his failure to grasp this fact was a huge part of his failure.

badabing67
05-11-2019, 10:26 AM
Copy paste the article please.

I spent two hours in football conversation with Paul Heckingbottom in April. He was not long in the door at Easter Road and explained to me his reasons for having gone back to university to take a BSc in sports coaching, how he might have been content to remain a youth coach all his days and why he believed “academia” — his word — was becoming increasingly important in football.

Our conversation bowled along in spate as Heckingbottom unloaded idea after idea about the ways of modern football.

What a coup it seemed for Hibs to have attracted him. Twelve months earlier he had been viewed as one of the coming men of coaching in England, having had success with Barnsley before being lured away by Leeds United. There, in February last year, Heckingbottom was taking on one of the most prestigious jobs in English football, and also one of the most notorious. He was Leeds’ ninth manager in five years before being binned like the rest of them: turfed out after four months in charge.

So it was impressive to see Heckingbottom re-enter the game at Easter Road. But, on that April afternoon, he interrupted me to say: “As a coach, you have to understand what your skill-set is, and be the best at it. Plus, at the top end, the game is all about winning, and not so much about education.”

This became the nub of it for Paul Heckingbottom. “The winning” for him came to be severely rationed at Easter Road, as Hibs boast an atrocious league record stretching back to last April. This season they have won only one of their 11 games so far in the Ladbrokes Premiership to leave them a point off the foot of the table. There was no escaping it: Heckingbottom has been prime sacking fodder for weeks, and the Hibbee faithful have not yearned for him to remain.


Two other thoughts sprang to mind about my long conversation with him, when news of his sacking emerged yesterday. The first concerned a question I put to him about the standard of the top flight in Scottish football, and where Heckingbottom would place it on quality within the league structure in England.

“Quality-wise it’s on a par with League One in England — lower half,” he replied. I was slightly startled by this, not that I hugely disagreed with him. If you exclude Celtic and Rangers, then there probably is a tranche of teams in the Scottish Premiership who are third-tier material in England. But what I do remember thinking was: is this the bar that Heckingbottom will set for Hibs on his player recruitment? Because if it is, it is a low bar.

I’m not convinced that the now former Hibs head coach called it right here. Over the summer he signed a bunch of players — Josh Vela, Christian Doidge, Tom James, Adam Jackson and more — who, on numerous occasions, have looked like English lower-league journeymen. Back in August, when Hibs lost 3-0 to Motherwell at Fir Park, I was scratching my head to work out why all Heckingbottom’s summer signings were either on the bench or not even stripped for action that afternoon. “They’re not good enough,” a seasoned Hibs watcher told me.

After that loss, Heckingbottom made the remarkable admission that he couldn’t wait for January to get new bodies in. I thought: were these recent ten weeks of summer not the time to get this done?

Doidge, left, and Heckingbottom’s other signings have struggled to impressDoidge, left, and Heckingbottom’s other signings have struggled to impress
IAN MACNICOL/GETTY IMAGES
My second thought about my conversation with Heckingbottom in April was: just how much did he know about Scottish football, and would this be a factor? He told me: “It has been a real challenge for me, because I have gone from the Championship in England where I knew everything inside out — every manager, every player, every club, every game — to a situation here where I didn’t know the managers, their tactics, their substitution options, etc.

“In terms of Scottish football, it has been all about learning and taking in as many games as possible. I didn’t know a lot about it, being honest.”

In truth, this shouldn’t have been an insurmountable obstacle. Players and coaches change clubs and enter new environments the world over, and they simply adapt, bringing success or failure. A lack of knowledge of Scottish football should not have hindered Heckingbottom at Hibs, except in one area: in watching rival clubs and players, and assessing his own team, would he make the right judgment calls? In this context it seems he has failed.

I will be surprised if Heckingbottom is not a success once more in English football. He has proved himself there before. But at Hibs, he made some costly wrong calls, and has rightly paid for them with his job.

green with envy
05-11-2019, 10:28 AM
But he's a good guy, eh.:wink:

Bobby's Cinema
05-11-2019, 10:30 AM
I don't think anyone will be surprised by that as it was so badly reflected in his recruitment.

It does make you wonder how that mindset gets through an interview process.

Just_Jimmy
05-11-2019, 10:30 AM
It's funny how those that come from down south and embrace the clubs and the game up here even without a huge knowledge often leave as heroes. Dolan is one; Clarke (Scottish but worked for years in England) is another.

Those that think themselves too good leave looking stupid. Joey Barton; calderwood And the latest failure and no mark loser; Paul heckingbottom.

That said his record in England was nothing to bleat about either. Maybe it wasn't the standard of the club or the game up here that was the issue, rather the standard of the manager.

Good riddance.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

Bostonhibby
05-11-2019, 10:31 AM
Having read that article I can only assume he's a talker who blagged his way through whatever our recruitment process was.

Abject failure who had us heading towards relegation.

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CloudSquall
05-11-2019, 10:32 AM
I really hope we avoid anyone from down South that has no connection with Scottish football, the arrogance and ignorance towards the game up here is incredible.

Smartie
05-11-2019, 10:35 AM
But he's a good guy, eh.:wink:

Having read the article, I’m not sure he’s guilty of anything more than underestimating Scottish football. He’s not the first, he won’t be the last.

I’ll reserve my full character assassination until we have more to go on than an article by Graham Spiers reminiscing about an interview 6 months ago.

Tbh my main opinion after reading that was wtf was Leeann playing at? She was due a bad appointment but that article makes his appointment seem very bizarre.

Scorrie
05-11-2019, 10:37 AM
Having read that article I can only assume he's a talker who blagged his way through whatever our recruitment process was.

Abject failure who had us heading towards relegation.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

Absolutely. He freely admits he knew nothing about Scottish football yet our board appointed him. They are as culpable as he is for where we are.

Heckys Wheel
05-11-2019, 10:38 AM
Graeme ****ing Spiers. Mr Hindsight.

Brave enough to post his thoughts of answers given 7 months ago now that he’s gone.

Cataplana
05-11-2019, 10:38 AM
Having read that article I can only assume he's a talker who blagged his way through whatever our recruitment process was.

Abject failure who had us heading towards relegation.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

If what's in the article was his pitch, you have to question the interviewer's ability.

GloryGlory
05-11-2019, 10:38 AM
Having read that article I can only assume he's a talker who blagged his way through whatever our recruitment process was.

Abject failure who had us heading towards relegation.

Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk

He's obviously good at the powerpoint presentations - an essential business tool, but not really indicative of football coaching ability, IMHO.

Diclonius
05-11-2019, 10:43 AM
This confirms my long held suspicion that he was one of those idiots who bought into the mantra that Scottish football was *****, and if you brought in a bunch of average English 2nd/3rd tier players you'd piss it.

We're well rid of him.

Springbank
05-11-2019, 10:50 AM
Have to say, this interview from Spiers gives me a renewed faith in the collective wisdom of [most of] the Hibs support.

It was after the 1-1 game at Stirling Albion that most Hibs fans were saying "these guys are not the standard" and "they don't have it".

A few vocal folk chipped back saying it was too early to judge and so on.

But, nah, we nailed it.

Let's hope it's ten years or more til we have to endure signing a job lot of lower league dross from our neighbours to the south.

But yeah, well done the Hibs support - who I would argue do actually know a thing or two about the game...

Brightside
05-11-2019, 10:52 AM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.

FilipinoHibs
05-11-2019, 10:53 AM
The Dog has only done it in the fourth tier and lower of English/Welsh football. Not even good for Div 1. Apart from Hallberg and Maxwell I would not let any of the signings near ER again

The Harp Awakes
05-11-2019, 10:53 AM
A real insight into his thoughts on us and football. Bring in lower level players who should be good enough and wing it up here with no clue about our league and other teams. I'm even more glad he's ****ed off, arrogant get

The thing is, I'm no football genius, but when Heckingbottom was recruited the same questions went through my head at the time. What did he know about Scottish football, was he going to underestimate it etc.

More and more the recruitment of him is looking like gross negligence, as is keeping him on for months when it was clear to everyone he was so out of his depth. You do wonder about LD's position now.

A very expensive mistake by the club and one that will take a long time to recover from.

The 90+2
05-11-2019, 10:59 AM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.

I suppose we did struggle against League 2 Carlisle recently, saying that we struggled against Scottish League 2 Stirling Albion.

Scottish Football might be dire but Wycombe Wanderers with a stadium capacity of under 10,000 lead League 1 at the moment. The standard in that league mainly is ****, especially the rubbish at the bottom half of the table. Yet you think we compare to the likes of Southend, Rochdale, Accrington Stanley and Tranmere?

we are hibs
05-11-2019, 11:00 AM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.

As are hibs. Mainly due to the standard of player he has recruited.

Deansy
05-11-2019, 11:04 AM
ARTICLE HERE:


I spent two hours in football conversation with Paul Heckingbottom in April. He was not long in the door at Easter Road and explained to me his reasons for having gone back to university to take a BSc in sports coaching, how he might have been content to remain a youth coach all his days and why he believed “academia” — his word — was becoming increasingly important in football.

Our conversation bowled along in spate as Heckingbottom unloaded idea after idea about the ways of modern football.

What a coup it seemed for Hibs to have attracted him. Twelve months earlier he had been viewed as one of the coming men of coaching in England, having had success with Barnsley before being lured away by Leeds United. There, in February last year, Heckingbottom was taking on one of the most prestigious jobs in English football, and also one of the most notorious. He was Leeds’ ninth manager in five years before being binned like the rest of them: turfed out after four months in charge.

So it was impressive to see Heckingbottom re-enter the game at Easter Road. But, on that April afternoon, he interrupted me to say: “As a coach, you have to understand what your skill-set is, and be the best at it. Plus, at the top end, the game is all about winning, and not so much about education.”

This became the nub of it for Paul Heckingbottom. “The winning” for him came to be severely rationed at Easter Road, as Hibs boast an atrocious league record stretching back to last April. This season they have won only one of their 11 games so far in the Ladbrokes Premiership to leave them a point off the foot of the table. There was no escaping it: Heckingbottom has been prime sacking fodder for weeks, and the Hibbee faithful have not yearned for him to remain.

Two other thoughts sprang to mind about my long conversation with him, when news of his sacking emerged yesterday. The first concerned a question I put to him about the standard of the top flight in Scottish football, and where Heckingbottom would place it on quality within the league structure in England.

“Quality-wise it’s on a par with League One in England — lower half,” he replied. I was slightly startled by this, not that I hugely disagreed with him. If you exclude Celtic and Rangers, then there probably is a tranche of teams in the Scottish Premiership who are third-tier material in England. But what I do remember thinking was: is this the bar that Heckingbottom will set for Hibs on his player recruitment? Because if it is, it is a low bar.

I’m not convinced that the now former Hibs head coach called it right here. Over the summer he signed a bunch of players — Josh Vela, Christian Doidge, Tom James, Adam Jackson and more — who, on numerous occasions, have looked like English lower-league journeymen. Back in August, when Hibs lost 3-0 to Motherwell at Fir Park, I was scratching my head to work out why all Heckingbottom’s summer signings were either on the bench or not even stripped for action that afternoon. “They’re not good enough,” a seasoned Hibs watcher told me.

After that loss, Heckingbottom made the remarkable admission that he couldn’t wait for January to get new bodies in. I thought: were these recent ten weeks of summer not the time to get this done?


My second thought about my conversation with Heckingbottom in April was: just how much did he know about Scottish football, and would this be a factor? He told me: “It has been a real challenge for me, because I have gone from the Championship in England where I knew everything inside out — every manager, every player, every club, every game — to a situation here where I didn’t know the managers, their tactics, their substitution options, etc.

“In terms of Scottish football, it has been all about learning and taking in as many games as possible. I didn’t know a lot about it, being honest.”

In truth, this shouldn’t have been an insurmountable obstacle. Players and coaches change clubs and enter new environments the world over, and they simply adapt, bringing success or failure. A lack of knowledge of Scottish football should not have hindered Heckingbottom at Hibs, except in one area: in watching rival clubs and players, and assessing his own team, would he make the right judgment calls? In this context it seems he has failed.

I will be surprised if Heckingbottom is not a success once more in English football. He has proved himself there before. But at Hibs, he made some costly wrong calls, and has rightly paid for them with his job.


If this is true (after all, it is our 'football media' !!??) then it's a damning indictment on Leeann Dempster and the rest of the team responsible for bringing this wage-drain to Easter Road !. We're gonna have to pay for the footballing and financial damage that Heckingbottom and his signings have done to us and it's something we can ill-afford - yet again at Easter Road it's 'Back to the drawing-board' !.

Barman Stanton
05-11-2019, 11:07 AM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.

If Scottish football is so dire you would think that all these players he brought from English lower leagues would walk this league. And not look completely out their depth.

calumhibee1
05-11-2019, 11:10 AM
Have to say, this interview from Spiers gives me a renewed faith in the collective wisdom of [most of] the Hibs support.

It was after the 1-1 game at Stirling Albion that most Hibs fans were saying "these guys are not the standard" and "they don't have it".

A few vocal folk chipped back saying it was too early to judge and so on.

But, nah, we nailed it.

Let's hope it's ten years or more til we have to endure signing a job lot of lower league dross from our neighbours to the south.

But yeah, well done the Hibs support - who I would argue do actually know a thing or two about the game...

Whether it proved to be correct or not it is too early to judge players on their first or second appearances.

Leigh Griffiths spent half a season at us being generally pretty average. He then went on to become one of our best players in my life time. Scott Allan took a good while to get up and running first time round. Martin Boyle took a season or two to get to where he is now. Not everyone hits the ground running.

Brightside
05-11-2019, 11:13 AM
As are hibs. Mainly due to the standard of player he has recruited.

I’m not disagreeing. Our recruitment hasn’t worked this season for sure. But outside of the old firm the whole league is eye bleeding stuff for the majority of times.

matty_f
05-11-2019, 11:14 AM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.

That is what I was thinking - St Johnstone, Hamilton, St Mirren, Ross County, Livingston, Motherwell, us, Hearts, and Aberdeen (who have I missed?) would not be challenging the top of the Championship in England, nowhere near it.

It's too easy to be outraged that he's called that out but what's the argument against it?

That's not a criticism of Scottish football. The top end of the Championship will have budgets many multiples of the budgets of Scottish clubs.

Rangers and Celtic are, at the moment, on another level to the rest of us. They're competitive in Europe and pumping teams left, right, and centre here.

I would find it ridiculous if someone tried to make a case for Hamilton etc to be competitive against a top Championship side.

blackpoolhibs
05-11-2019, 11:15 AM
He's one of the biggest bluffers ever to manage in Scottish football, and our board were taken in hook line and sinker with his waffle.

we are hibs
05-11-2019, 11:18 AM
I’m not disagreeing. Our recruitment hasn’t worked this season for sure. But outside of the old firm the whole league is eye bleeding stuff for the majority of times.

I agree with that. I said it last week but it feels like the quality and standard of player in the league as a whole is poorer this season compared to our first season back up. Maybe its just because hibs are poor it feels like that but you look back to that season and there were some excellent games involving hibs, aberdeen, celtic, rangers, motherwell ect and many people saying how entertaining and marketable Scottish football was. It doesnt have the same feel at the minute

Hibernia&Alba
05-11-2019, 11:24 AM
His signings suggest that he did indeed underestimate the SPL, thinking lower league English players would be competitive here. He quickly learned that wasn't the case; most of them were on the bench. Now he's gone, but we are stuck with his players, upon whom he spent a good amount.

Scorrie
05-11-2019, 11:28 AM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.

Shows how bad Heckinbottom was then that he couldn’t even get players who were good enough to be called dire

Viva_Palmeiras
05-11-2019, 11:28 AM
I have to say, that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. It was bleeding obvious from the dross he signed that that was what he rated us as. In saying that, he should have been put straight on the quality required in the last 5 matches where we were playing the better teams with some ambition. Clearly that didn't alter his overall view and he carried on with the dross. I am pretty sure our recruitment team were told to back off, as Hecky had this transfer window covered. I am pretty sure the signing of Hallberg was them starting to reassert themselves.

If these are indeed the views of our ex-manager, that does put our Exec Management's judgement in serious doubt.

If this is the case we should watch out for the current Motherwell managers signing policies which has their fans scratching their heads.

Joe6-2
05-11-2019, 11:36 AM
Cheeky, ignorant b******

stubru59
05-11-2019, 11:38 AM
That is what I was thinking - St Johnstone, Hamilton, St Mirren, Ross County, Livingston, Motherwell, us, Hearts, and Aberdeen (who have I missed?) would not be challenging the top of the Championship in England, nowhere near it.

It's too easy to be outraged that he's called that out but what's the argument against it?

That's not a criticism of Scottish football. The top end of the Championship will have budgets many multiples of the budgets of Scottish clubs.

Rangers and Celtic are, at the moment, on another level to the rest of us. They're competitive in Europe and pumping teams left, right, and centre here.

I would find it ridiculous if someone tried to make a case for Hamilton etc to be competitive against a top Championship side.

Spot on. But you do get the feeling some (our last manager being a prime example) are inclined to think the game up here is lot worst than it actually is.

I've watched some eye bleeding stuff from the lower end of the English Champs.

Smartie
05-11-2019, 11:39 AM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.

If he was chortling off to an English Premier League job having pissed it with us, improving us (and Scottish football) along the way then he might have a point.

He crashed and burned, and during his time with us made us a poorer side, weakening Scottish football further.

Scottish football might not be brilliant, there are clubs who do a lot right and clubs who do a lot wrong but at the very least it is deserving of a wee bit of respect.

Barman Stanton
05-11-2019, 11:41 AM
I don't think Scottish football is any where near as bad quality as some on here are making out. Its physical and pretty fast but you get plenty exciting games. Have watched so many disappointing and boring EPL games. And the English Championship is nowhere near as good as some would have you believe. Watched plenty of it last season due to McGinn and a lot of the time the quality was poor. We don't half like to put ourselves down in this country.

greenpaper55
05-11-2019, 11:43 AM
Motherwell manage to find a few gems in the English lower leagues !

The Harp Awakes
05-11-2019, 11:44 AM
If he was chortling off to an English Premier League job having pissed it with us, improving us (and Scottish football) along the way then he might have a point.

He crashed and burned, and during his time with us made us a poorer side, weakening Scottish football further.

Scottish football might not be brilliant, there are clubs who do a lot right and clubs who do a lot wrong but at the very least it is deserving of a wee bit of respect.

In terms of technical ability Scottish football may not be brilliant. However it is played at pace and is strongly physical. That is what Heckingbottom failed to grasp. His signings lacked pace and the physicality to cope with Scottish football.

Col L
05-11-2019, 11:45 AM
Have to say, this interview from Spiers gives me a renewed faith in the collective wisdom of [most of] the Hibs support.

It was after the 1-1 game at Stirling Albion that most Hibs fans were saying "these guys are not the standard" and "they don't have it".

A few vocal folk chipped back saying it was too early to judge and so on.

But, nah, we nailed it.

Let's hope it's ten years or more til we have to endure signing a job lot of lower league dross from our neighbours to the south.

But yeah, well done the Hibs support - who I would argue do actually know a thing or two about the game...


Absolutely agree with this. I was prepared to judge Heckingbottom on the team he assembled for this season. What I and other Hibbies saw at Stirling set off the alarm bells big time, and what I have seen since has just added to the feeling that we had the wrong man and had allowed him to build the wrong team, with the wrong style of play. Christ, you could even see it in the Carlisle friendly which we nearly lost.

I must admit it jars with me a bit when people say 'ah, but he's a good coach' - is he really?! Good coaches don't play pedestrian, predictable football like that, or stubbornly stick to a 4-5-1 without the attack-minded players needed to make it work. Leeds sussed him out quick enough, and I can't believe we made the same mistake. Thankfully, we can still get someone in to give us a lift for the remainder of the season.

Let's get someone in who is at least committed to the Hibs way of playing entertaining, attacking football and giving the fans something to enjoy again.

Lancs Harp
05-11-2019, 11:46 AM
The English leagues are a pretty obvious place to look for players, its a much bigger market than in Scotland. There will be some good finds and some duds not suited to the game North of the Border. Its more of a question of us doing better due diligence on the players we are looking to recruit. If a player comes north and turns out to be crap, is that the EFLs fault or Hibs recruitments fault?

Eaststand
05-11-2019, 11:46 AM
The thing is, I'm no football genius, but when Heckingbottom was recruited the same questions went through my head at the time. What did he know about Scottish football, was he going to underestimate it etc.

More and more the recruitment of him is looking like gross negligence, as is keeping him on for months when it was clear to everyone he was so out of his depth. You do wonder about LD's position now.

A very expensive mistake by the club and one that will take a long time to recover from.

I agree with this.

The last 2 decent managers we've had from engerland (Mowbray and Stubbs) importantly, both played in our spl so knew a fair bit about the Scottish game.
I reckon Hecky not having similar experience is the core of the problem.

If the rumours are to be believed that Hecky was second choice, the guy that was supposedly offered the job, Michael Appleton, very probably had the same lack of knowledge about the Scottish game.

I hope our recruitment team keep this issue in mind when they select our new manager.

GGTTH

JeMeSouviens
05-11-2019, 11:46 AM
The thing is, it's not like he arrived in June and brought the dross with him. He had almost half a season to get to know the league and then brought in the dross.

Got to be one of the worst, if not the worst, ever transfer window we've had.

How long are the contracts of Doidge, Newell, Vela, James? How much more is it going to cost us going forward?

Crab apple
05-11-2019, 11:49 AM
Hindsight's a wonderful thing but it was obvious early on he was way out of his depth and should never have been appointed. There isn't one positive thing to take from his legacy. The players he signed appear to be poor quality. He hasn't brought on our young players. The team is bereft of confidence. There is now a bigger disconnect with the fans that there has been for many years. The board have finally done the right thing in getting shot but they can't afford to make another mistake.

neil7908
05-11-2019, 11:55 AM
My initial reaction was anger here but with only one selective quote I don't think it's entirely fair to jump on Heckingbottom for this.

The honest answer is the likes of Hamilton, St Mirren and the smaller clubs in the SPL are lower half of League 1 level. Celtic and Rangers are English Premiership. Aberdeen, Hibs and Hearts should be aiming for Championship level to be pushing for 3rd and having a go in the cups and Europe.

So I don't think it's fair to judge him purely on the comments but the calibre of player he's brought in does feel like he's underestimated the quality required to compete at the top end of the table.

One Day Soon
05-11-2019, 11:59 AM
What a complete and utter fud. The utter complacency that lies behind his assumpton as to the standard of the Scottish Premier league in general and Hibernian in particular at that time is breathtaking.

The sheer level of ignorance and arrogance that his attitude speaks to, explains almost completely the underperformance of the failed players he signed and the completely uninspiring and insipid performances his teams regularly turned in.

And it raises massive questions about those who recruited him and the recruitment process.

Onion
05-11-2019, 11:59 AM
Confirms what a lot of Hibs fans thought of his perception of the game up here and why his signings are so poor. His approach to the first Celtic game at ER was a disgrace and told us everything we needed to know about PH. Should have got alarm bells ringing long before we handed him a load of cash to bring in sub-standard jersey fillers.

Hiber-nation
05-11-2019, 12:02 PM
In his interview I assume Leann didn't ask him the same question as Spiers...???

Lancs Harp
05-11-2019, 12:04 PM
In his interview I assume Leann didn't ask him the same question as Spiers...???

Leann was struggling with the Yorkshire Dialect......... as it seems the team did.

hhibs
05-11-2019, 12:05 PM
This confirms my long held suspicion that he was one of those idiots who bought into the mantra that Scottish football was *****, and if you brought in a bunch of average English 2nd/3rd tier players you'd piss it.

We're well rid of him.


:top marks

The board and CEO must share the blane for this appointment,and all the other failures.

Captain Trips
05-11-2019, 12:08 PM
He's one of the biggest bluffers ever to manage in Scottish football, and our board were taken in hook line and sinker with his waffle.

As I said in another thread he is the stereotype of an 80s car salesman, the man was full of pish.

Captain Trips
05-11-2019, 12:10 PM
We can call this "The Barton effect"

Super Joey came up here like billy big baws and was *****

hhibs
05-11-2019, 12:11 PM
As I said in another thread he is the stereotype of an 80s car salesman, the man was full of pish.



In one word ,carpetbagger.

HibeeHibernian4
05-11-2019, 12:14 PM
That is what I was thinking - St Johnstone, Hamilton, St Mirren, Ross County, Livingston, Motherwell, us, Hearts, and Aberdeen (who have I missed?) would not be challenging the top of the Championship in England, nowhere near it.

It's too easy to be outraged that he's called that out but what's the argument against it?

That's not a criticism of Scottish football. The top end of the Championship will have budgets many multiples of the budgets of Scottish clubs.

Rangers and Celtic are, at the moment, on another level to the rest of us. They're competitive in Europe and pumping teams left, right, and centre here.

I would find it ridiculous if someone tried to make a case for Hamilton etc to be competitive against a top Championship side.

There is, I'm led to believe, middle ground between bottom half of League 1 and top half of the Championship.

Hibs4185
05-11-2019, 12:14 PM
To be fair to Heckingbottom, the wages on offer are probably league 2 wages so that’s the Calibre of player he was in the market for.

Far better finding players from Scotland who are over the moon getting a pay rise to 2-4K a week rather than English duds who think that wage is a pittance.

John McGinn from St Mirren over Josh Vela from Bolton as an example.

Makes me think we need a Scottish manager or someone with a thorough knowledge of the Scottish game as our new manager

Deansy
05-11-2019, 12:16 PM
What a complete and utter fud. The utter complacency that lies behind his assumpton as to the standard of the Scottish Premier league in general and Hibernian in particular at that time is breathtaking.

The sheer level of ignorance and arrogance that his attitude speaks to, explains almost completely the underperformance of the failed players he signed and the completely uninspiring and insipid performances his teams regularly turned in.

And it raises massive questions about those who recruited him and the recruitment process.

I agree - but how-the-**** did he get past his interview with LD/board ?. Did they ask him of his knowledge of our game - if they did then he obviously lied and if they didn't then why not ?. Dear God, this 'interview' (if true) makes him look and sound like a complete ****wit and likewise LD/board !

WhileTheChief..
05-11-2019, 12:18 PM
The man was a complete fraud.

Arrogant, smug, useless and never a manager in a million years.

Conned his way into the job on the back of a sports science degree.

I doubt he'll ever manage again. He'll be a scout for one of these lower English league teams if he's lucky.

Quality wise he's on a par with Cathro.

PeeJay
05-11-2019, 12:21 PM
I am surprised anybody on here is surprised about Heckingbottom's "knowledge" of the game in Scotland - let's face it most people outwith Scotland - when they talk of the game here - mean two clubs only. Have to wonder why our club management didn't spot this during the job interview ...:confused: could have saved us all a lot of anguish?

Pretty Boy
05-11-2019, 12:25 PM
Whether his opinion is accurate or otherwise is irrelevant.

Somewhere along the line he underestimated the quality of the league and/or the scale of the job. If he didn't then he would have been a roaring success in what he perceived as a piss poor league as he operated with a budget significantly higher than several of the teams currently sitting above us in the league.

It's probably a bit below the belt for Spiers to run with this now but it was naive in the extreme for Heckingbottom to say it and not expect it to be both made public and there to be a backlash when it inevitably was.

greenlex
05-11-2019, 12:27 PM
Having read the article, I’m not sure he’s guilty of anything more than underestimating Scottish football. He’s not the first, he won’t be the last.

I’ll reserve my full character assassination until we have more to go on than an article by Graham Spiers reminiscing about an interview 6 months ago.

Tbh my main opinion after reading that was wtf was Leeann playing at? She was due a bad appointment but that article makes his appointment seem very bizarre.
Not really. He would be being interviewed for the job. He's hardly going today he saying the standard is poor. He obviously talks the talk but can it walk the walk.

The Harp Awakes
05-11-2019, 12:27 PM
He's one of the biggest bluffers ever to manage in Scottish football, and our board were taken in hook line and sinker with his waffle.

Yes, the high press and fitness levels never seen before immediately spring to mind.

Beefster
05-11-2019, 12:29 PM
Since the very first Celtic game, I thought that he had a pretty low opinion of Scottish football, outside the Old Firm, so I’m not particularly surprised that he said that.

He’s a blowhard. Best forgotten about.

Since452
05-11-2019, 12:29 PM
Don't really care what he supposedly said or what Speirs has to say in order to get clicks. He's away.

Hibs4185
05-11-2019, 12:29 PM
Yes, the high press and fitness levels never seen before immediately spring to mind.

I did feel a bit sorry for him yesterday even though I’ve been desperate for him to go for weeks but when I think of this comments it does make me think he is an absolute blagger and has no idea.

The 90+2
05-11-2019, 12:32 PM
That is what I was thinking - St Johnstone, Hamilton, St Mirren, Ross County, Livingston, Motherwell, us, Hearts, and Aberdeen (who have I missed?) would not be challenging the top of the Championship in England, nowhere near it.

It's too easy to be outraged that he's called that out but what's the argument against it?

That's not a criticism of Scottish football. The top end of the Championship will have budgets many multiples of the budgets of Scottish clubs.

Rangers and Celtic are, at the moment, on another level to the rest of us. They're competitive in Europe and pumping teams left, right, and centre here.

I would find it ridiculous if someone tried to make a case for Hamilton etc to be competitive against a top Championship side.

He didn’t say that though Matty, he said the league was lower half of the English League 1. He’s obviously brought in players he thought was better than English league 2 and try to develop them against the clubs he under estimated.

The Leith Dutch
05-11-2019, 12:33 PM
Well, if he thought the standard was so low, how come he and his chosen players weren’t good enough to compete?

100% this.

pollution
05-11-2019, 12:37 PM
No mention of the incredible level of fitness? That's when I knew he was a prat.

One little comment blew the gaff. Twas ever thus.

matty_f
05-11-2019, 12:39 PM
There is, I'm led to believe, middle ground between bottom half of League 1 and top half of the Championship.

You're right - I mis-read the quote and took it as him comparing the Scottish Premiership to the lower half of the Championship...

I have no idea what League One is like!

matty_f
05-11-2019, 12:39 PM
He didn’t say that though Matty, he said the league was lower half of the English League 1. He’s obviously brought in players he thought was better than English league 2 and try to develop them against the clubs he under estimated.

Yes, I realise that. Now. :greengrin

matty_f
05-11-2019, 12:42 PM
No mention of the incredible level of fitness? That's when I knew he was a prat.

One little comment blew the gaff. Twas ever thus.

I don't think that he was too far wide of the mark.

Hibs.net were invited to the training centre where we saw a presentation of how they use the GPS devices that we paid for through our donations.

During that talk, it was confirmed that we'd only been out-run in two games (Rangers away and Motherwell away), so the evidence suggests that the fitness levels are better than most of the other teams.

Carheenlea
05-11-2019, 12:43 PM
Have to say, this interview from Spiers gives me a renewed faith in the collective wisdom of [most of] the Hibs support.

It was after the 1-1 game at Stirling Albion that most Hibs fans were saying "these guys are not the standard" and "they don't have it".

A few vocal folk chipped back saying it was too early to judge and so on.

But, nah, we nailed it.

Let's hope it's ten years or more til we have to endure signing a job lot of lower league dross from our neighbours to the south.

But yeah, well done the Hibs support - who I would argue do actually know a thing or two about the game...

The Hibs supporters have proven once again that they are the best judges of a manager. The alarm bells were ringing very early in the season and those who were accused of being too quick to write off certain players at that time have been proved right.

Supporters with many years following the club have a natural sense of how things will pan out given their experience of seeing it all before, and this time round the board have ignored those concerns from the fans for too long. Not too long that the season isn’t unsalvageable, but a good few weeks have been lost.

Smartie
05-11-2019, 12:50 PM
The Hibs supporters have proven once again that they are the best judges of a manager. The alarm bells were ringing very early in the season and those who were accused of being too quick to write off certain players at that time have been proved right.

Supporters with many years following the club have a natural sense of how things will pan out given their experience of seeing it all before, and this time round the board have ignored those concerns from the fans for too long. Not too long that the season isn’t unsalvageable, but a good few weeks have been lost.

With hindsight, possibly.

It was probably right to give him the first round of fixtures and the semi-final.

Hanging on too long would have been giving him until Christmas.

A new man can size the squad up before making changes in January.

He shouldn't have been appointed in the first place, that is becoming increasingly clear, but having got the job I thought he was given an appropriate amount of time to show that he had what it took to succeed.

I don't want Hibs to be the kind of club to sack managers every few months.

J-C
05-11-2019, 12:50 PM
I don't think that he was too far wide of the mark.

Hibs.net were invited to the training centre where we saw a presentation of how they use the GPS devices that we paid for through our donations.

During that talk, it was confirmed that we'd only been out-run in two games (Rangers away and Motherwell away), so the evidence suggests that the fitness levels are better than most of the other teams.

But when certain players are slow and ponderous no matter what fitness levels they have it wont improve their speed and pace etc. Vela does a lot of running about, I noticed his stats that night, one of the highest on the chart but he has little pace, hardly tackles but he does a lot of just running about.

Fife-Hibee
05-11-2019, 12:52 PM
I'm more furious about our recruitment process than Hecky tbh.

matty_f
05-11-2019, 12:55 PM
But when certain players are slow and ponderous no matter what fitness levels they have it wont improve their speed and pace etc. Vela does a lot of running about, I noticed his stats that night, one of the highest on the chart but he has little pace, hardly tackles but he does a lot of just running about.

That's not his fitness that's the issue then, in which case it doesn't contradict what Hecky said.

HFC 0-7
05-11-2019, 12:56 PM
I don't think that he was too far wide of the mark.

Hibs.net were invited to the training centre where we saw a presentation of how they use the GPS devices that we paid for through our donations.

During that talk, it was confirmed that we'd only been out-run in two games (Rangers away and Motherwell away), so the evidence suggests that the fitness levels are better than most of the other teams.

Out running other teams does not mean you are fitter than them. My sons team have these gps things and they analyse them but they don’t provide good example of fitness.

Some of the people that run around a massive amount don’t recover as well from sprinting a large area. Fitness in football is more about sprinting forward when attacking and being able to recover and have enough in the tank for tracking back when the ball is lost. Look at Vela and Mallan, they don’t seem to be able to bust a gut back.

BlackSheep
05-11-2019, 12:58 PM
This "quote" should have been sent to LD as soon as it was said... waste of a summer transfer window and waste of money on these players.

matty_f
05-11-2019, 12:59 PM
Out running other teams does not mean you are fitter than them. My sons team have these gps things and they analyse them but they don’t provide good example of fitness.

Some of the people that run around a massive amount don’t recover as well from sprinting a large area. Fitness in football is more about sprinting forward when attacking and being able to recover and have enough in the tank for tracking back when the ball is lost. Look at Vela and Mallan, they don’t seem to be able to bust a gut back.

They also track time spent at over 90% (or 95%) of top speed, how many sprints they do, heart rate etc IMHO, after hearing the detail, they're an excellent measure of fitness.

Certainly a better measure than watching from the stands.

J-C
05-11-2019, 12:59 PM
That's not his fitness that's the issue then, in which case it doesn't contradict what Hecky said.

My point was no matter how fit they are, it means nowt when they're either slow or just pish. I don't care if Rangers out ran us, the fact that the majority of the players just gave up was the main problem, get out ran but at least fight for the club and fans.

Smartie
05-11-2019, 01:01 PM
This "quote" should have been sent to LD as soon as it was said... waste of a summer transfer window and waste of money on these players.

Unfortunately snidey Speirs sat on the quote for 7 months and chose the moment of maximum impact to release it.

Not sure I really want to rip into LD or PH too much off the back of it.

He underestimated the job on his hands. We've forgiven other people for much worse in the past.

Biggie
05-11-2019, 01:01 PM
I'm more furious about our recruitment process than Hecky tbh.

Exactly......looks like he mugged Leeann and the rest of the board off....probably intoxicated them with "high press" and "fitter than ever before"...

matty_f
05-11-2019, 01:01 PM
My point was no matter how fit they are, it means nowt when they're either slow or just pish. I don't care if Rangers out ran us, the fact that the majority of the players just gave up was the main problem, get out ran but at least fight for the club and fans.

I get that, what I was saying is that your opinion on that is irrelevant to the point that was being made :greengrin


No offence.

J-C
05-11-2019, 01:02 PM
I get that, what I was saying is that your opinion on that is irrelevant to the point that was being made :greengrin


No offence.

None taken 😁

HFC 0-7
05-11-2019, 01:04 PM
They also track time spent at over 90% (or 95%) of top speed, how many sprints they do, heart rate etc IMHO, after hearing the detail, they're an excellent measure of fitness.

Certainly a better measure than watching from the stands.

They may not be the same devices etc but the stats on these gps systems never backed up what you saw when you did the fitness training. Often what the gps systems said to indicate the best levels of fitness, when you did the old school sprints with recoveries and sprint again, the drop offs never matched the gps systems analysis. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an over reliance on these systems with the results skewing the actual performances in games.

matty_f
05-11-2019, 01:07 PM
They may not be the same devices etc but the stats on these gps systems never backed up what you saw when you did the fitness training. Often what the gps systems said to indicate the best levels of fitness, when you did the old school sprints with recoveries and sprint again, the drop offs never matched the gps systems analysis. I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an over reliance on these systems with the results skewing the actual performances in games.

I would have confidence that the data that Hibs are getting from the very expensive devices is reliable.

Hibbyradge
05-11-2019, 01:09 PM
Unfortunately snidey Speirs sat on the quote for 7 months and chose the moment of maximum impact to release it.

Not sure I really want to rip into LD or PH too much off the back of it.

He underestimated the job on his hands. We've forgiven other people for much worse in the past.

If he had printed that last year, the fans would have turned on Heckingbottom immediately.

I think he knew that and kept it back.

lord bunberry
05-11-2019, 01:12 PM
I wonder if he was saying this to his signings before they came up? They all seem to have struggled with Scottish football.

Tyler Durden
05-11-2019, 01:14 PM
I would have confidence that the data that Hibs are getting from the very expensive devices is reliable.

If the squad are infact showing positive fitness levels, it’s had no impact on the team results. Which is just another reason to criticise Hecky to be honest - not that we need more.

I can’t remember a Hibs team showing less intensity. There was no co-ordinated pressing of opponents and the apparent fitness, didn’t translate to winning back possession more often or any other valid footballing metric.

Just another of the resources available to this management team that they wasted.

Sioux
05-11-2019, 01:15 PM
Having read the article, I’m not sure he’s guilty of anything more than underestimating Scottish football. He’s not the first, he won’t be the last.

I’ll reserve my full character assassination until we have more to go on than an article by Graham Spiers reminiscing about an interview 6 months ago.

Tbh my main opinion after reading that was wtf was Leeann playing at? She was due a bad appointment but that article makes his appointment seem very bizarre.

Really?

HFC 0-7
05-11-2019, 01:16 PM
I would have confidence that the data that Hibs are getting from the very expensive devices is reliable.

Matty, not questioning the data, it will be reliable. It’s how it’s interpreted. My sons football gps trackers are the same ones used by Tottenham. Some of the professional teams have already voiced concerns over an initial over reliance on the output of these systems as they were not correlating to actual events on the pitch.

That aside, what did they actually show you to prove they had outrun all other teams apart from 2? Distance travelled?

I would also ask, how did we know how far the oppositions teams ran?

neil7908
05-11-2019, 01:17 PM
If he had printed that last year, the fans would have turned on Heckingbottom immediately.

I think he knew that and kept it back.

Agreed. That was actually quite responsible of him.

We criticise on here journalists chasing a click bait headline. Well that was a whopper but he kept it back.

It wouldn't have helped the club - what is LD going to do, sack him off the back of that?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

matty_f
05-11-2019, 01:20 PM
If the squad are infact showing positive fitness levels, it’s had no impact on the team results. Which is just another reason to criticise Hecky to be honest - not that we need more.

I can’t remember a Hibs team showing less intensity. There was no co-ordinated pressing of opponents and the apparent fitness, didn’t translate to winning back possession more often or any other valid footballing metric.

Just another of the resources available to this management team that they wasted.

I don't disagree with that, the point I was making was that it wasn't fair to call Hecky out for saying the team would have high fitness levels. The evidence supports him there.

It doesn't excuse the rest of it, though :greengrin

matty_f
05-11-2019, 01:22 PM
Matty, not questioning the data, it will be reliable. It’s how it’s interpreted. My sons football gps trackers are the same ones used by Tottenham. Some of the professional teams have already voiced concerns over an initial over reliance on the output of these systems as they were not correlating to actual events on the pitch.

That aside, what did they actually show you to prove they had outrun all other teams apart from 2? Distance travelled?

I would also ask, how did we know how far the oppositions teams ran?

They showed us a couple of slides which showed a whole load of different measures. As a tool for assessing fitness, I would say that when used in conjunction with a qualified sports scientist, then it's being used properly.

The opponent's data is available to buy from a stats company.

Smartie
05-11-2019, 01:27 PM
Agreed. That was actually quite responsible of him.

We criticise on here journalists chasing a click bait headline. Well that was a whopper but he kept it back.

It wouldn't have helped the club - what is LD going to do, sack him off the back of that?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

If the quote was published in April, might it have been received differently to now?

At that point Heckingbottom had beaten a lot of the weaker sides, won at Tynecastle and the post-split slump hadn't happened. His stock was high and we might have believed him.

If his comments suggested that Dundee, Hamilton or St Mirren (who iirc were dozens of points behind us) were bottom half of league one standard might we have argued that he was being generous?

Now we've had some poor recruitment and a terrible start to the season, his comments have an entirely different context.

BlackSheep
05-11-2019, 01:31 PM
Agreed. That was actually quite responsible of him.

We criticise on here journalists chasing a click bait headline. Well that was a whopper but he kept it back.

It wouldn't have helped the club - what is LD going to do, sack him off the back of that?

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Leeann could have sat him down and talked him through how wrong he was...!!!

No one is saying he should have been sacked but surely a bit of guidance from the CEO in the knowledge that her manager has underestimated the job ahead then things could have been different!!

HFC 0-7
05-11-2019, 01:36 PM
They showed us a couple of slides which showed a whole load of different measures. As a tool for assessing fitness, I would say that when used in conjunction with a qualified sports scientist, then it's being used properly.

The opponent's data is available to buy from a stats company.

It probably is very accurate but assessing fitness levels based on other teams isn’t great. Rangers and Celtic won’t have to run or sprint as much as hibs because they probably pass the ball a lot more and have us chasing. Formations mean teams may have to run more, a 3-5-2 will have wing backs running a massive amount. My point is that saying we are very fit simply because we ran or sprinted more than other teams isn’t correct. Opposition teams probably don’t need to run or sprint as much as us because we don’t stretch the game enough.

Sir David Gray
05-11-2019, 01:51 PM
Around a year ago I attended Sunderland v Southend with the visitors a lower half League One team. A year ago I would have said we would have easily beaten them.

The standard in England's League One, with the exception of a few teams, is crap and we should certainly be aiming for much better.

Keith_M
05-11-2019, 02:03 PM
Have to say, this interview from Spiers gives me a renewed faith in the collective wisdom of [most of] the Hibs support.

It was after the 1-1 game at Stirling Albion that most Hibs fans were saying "these guys are not the standard" and "they don't have it".

A few vocal folk chipped back saying it was too early to judge and so on.

But, nah, we nailed it.
...


:agree:


Ive repeated ad-infinitum that what I saw that day was a total shock, and made me worry about the season ahead...and I saw absolutely nothing in the intervening period to make me change my mind.

JimBHibees
05-11-2019, 02:23 PM
Well, if he thought the standard was so low, how come he and his chosen players weren’t good enough to compete?

Yes they should have strolled it if that was the case. I wonder what level he rated Stirling Albion as?

JimBHibees
05-11-2019, 02:30 PM
I also think there’s a big difference between top half Scottish premier league and bottom half, and that’s not just talking about Rangers and Celtic (this season might not back this up so far).

The teams at the bottom (such as Heckingbottom’s Hibs team) are about bottom half of league 1 standard.

The top half are much higher, and his failure to grasp this fact was a huge part of his failure.

Agree he has made us lower league 1 standard while obviously Celtic and Rangers are much higher there are other teams Aberdeen, Kilmarnock last season, Hearts at their best who are higher. Incredible attitude to be honest.

Quarters
05-11-2019, 02:37 PM
So I’m a lurker on here, STH at Wycombe with a soft spot for the Hibees. Seeing as we get a mention up the thread, thought I’d offer a view.

If the right manager cherry-picked players from L1, they’d probably do okay (and only ‘okay’) in the SPL. From the outside, it looks to me as if Heckingbottom has simply picked up some players who are arguably average L1 and then didn’t manage to get anything out of them - a double failure.

For what it’s worth, I’d say that Hibs should be capable of holding their own in the Championship (say at the level of Derby or Birmingham City); there’s still a fair gap from the English Championship to L1.

As a response to the mention Wycombe get above, the fact that we’re doing so well at the moment shouldn’t be seen as proof that that L1 is poor, it’s more that we’ve got a good manager who gets the best from the players he has available. Not sure it’ll last but it’s fun at the moment.

Cabbage-Patch
05-11-2019, 02:38 PM
If he thought the SPL was on par with lower level league one why was his marquee signing from a team who were lower half league 2. Why not sign players from the championship or SPL teams(im not including vela in this or the Middleton loan)

The level of naivety and incompetence shown by Heckingbottom is incredible. Unfortunately I have now lost what little respect I had for him.

Good riddance... A proven SPL manager next please the experiments are over

J-C
05-11-2019, 02:38 PM
So I’m a lurker on here, STH at Wycombe with a soft spot for the Hibees. Seeing as we get a mention up the thread, thought I’d offer a view.

If the right manager cherry-picked players from L1, they’d probably do okay (and only ‘okay’) in the SPL. From the outside, it looks to me as if Heckingbottom has simply picked up some players who are arguably average L1 and then didn’t manage to get anything out of them - a double failure.

For what it’s worth, I’d say that Hibs should be capable of holding their own in the Championship (say at the level of Derby or Birmingham City); there’s still a fair gap from the English Championship to L1.

As a response to the mention Wycombe get above, the fact that we’re doing so well at the moment shouldn’t be seen as proof that that L1 is poor, it’s more that we’ve got a good manager who gets the best from the players he has available. Not sure it’ll last but it’s fun at the moment.

👍

hibIBZ
05-11-2019, 02:40 PM
Have to say, this interview from Spiers gives me a renewed faith in the collective wisdom of [most of] the Hibs support.

It was after the 1-1 game at Stirling Albion that most Hibs fans were saying "these guys are not the standard" and "they don't have it".


A few vocal folk chipped back saying it was too early to judge and so on.

But, nah, we nailed it.

.

This for me 100% I said to the Mrs after the Stirling game that he wouldn't make the end of October like that and only missed it by 4 days

JimBHibees
05-11-2019, 02:45 PM
The thing is, it's not like he arrived in June and brought the dross with him. He had almost half a season to get to know the league and then brought in the dross.

Got to be one of the worst, if not the worst, ever transfer window we've had.

How long are the contracts of Doidge, Newell, Vela, James? How much more is it going to cost us going forward?

Couldn't agree more he didn't just sign the players when he first came in the door. He had a good number of games including playing the top teams 2 or 3 times before he signed them which seriously undermines his competence with regard to what was required.

neil7908
05-11-2019, 02:46 PM
Leeann could have sat him down and talked him through how wrong he was...!!!

No one is saying he should have been sacked but surely a bit of guidance from the CEO in the knowledge that her manager has underestimated the job ahead then things could have been different!!

That should be happening anyway though. The whole recruitment department should be part of the signing process. If Heckingbottom was just left entirely to his own devices and there weren't discussions of quality of the league, players required etc then the club needs a hard look at itself.

It shouldn't need a journalist flagging something to them CEO.

EI255
05-11-2019, 02:54 PM
Shocking comments being reported by Graeme Spiers from the mouth of our former manager. Not only did he hold the level here in disregard, but he also admitted to not knowing the game in Scotland. The signings are so bad because he thought hibs were nothing more than a lower level
League One team. Zero ambition and arrogant. How this man was hired by Dempster I don’t know.

Manager got player recruitment badly wrong

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/916d2e66-ff4a-11e9-89d5-2f6d95957ddaI'm afraid I have to agree. Saw plenty games in L1 and L2 and to be fair, it's bang on par with the Scottish Premier. Absolutely. In fact, I'd say L1 is of a slightly better standard.

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Cabbage-Patch
05-11-2019, 02:58 PM
I'm afraid I have to agree. Saw plenty games in L1 and L2 and to be fair, it's bang on par with the Scottish Premier. Absolutely. In fact, I'd say L1 is of a slightly better standard.

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The team at the moment would struggle in the Vanarama North league but under Stubbs and Lennon we could have held our own in the championship. Regularly beating the old firm and playing attractive attacking football.

We have regressed massively in the last year

JimBHibees
05-11-2019, 03:01 PM
I don't think that he was too far wide of the mark.

Hibs.net were invited to the training centre where we saw a presentation of how they use the GPS devices that we paid for through our donations.

During that talk, it was confirmed that we'd only been out-run in two games (Rangers away and Motherwell away), so the evidence suggests that the fitness levels are better than most of the other teams.

Not sure that you can make that assumption from distances run. You can be chasing the ball for 80% of the game and cover more distance but not necessarily be fitter than other teams who move the ball well, are well organised and have a good shape. You can also cover more distance if the other team are sitting in and defending for long spells. The type of running is a factor you might be running further but slower rather than a team sharp and intense in short distances.

JimBHibees
05-11-2019, 03:05 PM
But when certain players are slow and ponderous no matter what fitness levels they have it wont improve their speed and pace etc. Vela does a lot of running about, I noticed his stats that night, one of the highest on the chart but he has little pace, hardly tackles but he does a lot of just running about.

Was Stevie Mallan not by a distance the player who ran the furthest?

Brightside
05-11-2019, 03:05 PM
Not sure that you can make that assumption from distances run. You can be chasing the ball for 80% of the game and cover more distance but not necessarily be fitter than other teams who move the ball well, are well organised and have a good shape. You can also cover more distance if the other team are sitting in and defending for long spells. The type of running is a factor you might be running further but slower rather than a team sharp and intense in short distances.

Agree with this and probably most of the mileage came from Lewis!! You just need to see our midfield being out paced by Marvin and you see the problem.

Since452
05-11-2019, 03:09 PM
Around a year ago I attended Sunderland v Southend with the visitors a lower half League One team. A year ago I would have said we would have easily beaten them.

The standard in England's League One, with the exception of a few teams, is crap and we should certainly be aiming for much better.

How was Jack Ross's football? 😉

essexhibee
05-11-2019, 03:12 PM
I'm afraid I have to agree. Saw plenty games in L1 and L2 and to be fair, it's bang on par with the Scottish Premier. Absolutely. In fact, I'd say L1 is of a slightly better standard.

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Being a regular watcher of Southend I have to disagree here massively. Ive also seen Ipswich three times this season and once on the TV who are leading League 1 and will be big spenders in that division they really arent that impressive.

All opinions I guess :greengrin

brog
05-11-2019, 03:19 PM
Shocking comments being reported by Graeme Spiers from the mouth of our former manager. Not only did he hold the level here in disregard, but he also admitted to not knowing the game in Scotland. The signings are so bad because he thought hibs were nothing more than a lower level
League One team. Zero ambition and arrogant. How this man was hired by Dempster I don’t know.

Manager got player recruitment badly wrong

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/916d2e66-ff4a-11e9-89d5-2f6d95957dda

I said this some time ago. He paid English inflated fees & wages for players who he thought would be stars in this league. That was always my major concern with him, along with his poor treatment of Murray, Shaw & Mackie.

Bostonhibby
05-11-2019, 03:37 PM
The Hibs supporters have proven once again that they are the best judges of a manager. The alarm bells were ringing very early in the season and those who were accused of being too quick to write off certain players at that time have been proved right.

Supporters with many years following the club have a natural sense of how things will pan out given their experience of seeing it all before, and this time round the board have ignored those concerns from the fans for too long. Not too long that the season isn’t unsalvageable, but a good few weeks have been lost.

One of the better posts I've read recently. [emoji106]

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BlackSheep
05-11-2019, 03:39 PM
That should be happening anyway though. The whole recruitment department should be part of the signing process. If Heckingbottom was just left entirely to his own devices and there weren't discussions of quality of the league, players required etc then the club needs a hard look at itself.

It shouldn't need a journalist flagging something to them CEO.

Do you think Hecky went to the board/recruitment department and said I think the league is no better than lower EFL1 so I’m going to buy players I think would play to that level...??

No, he would not have said that, he would have said here are a list of players I think would do a job for us. The recruitment department would have trusted Heckingbottom’s opinion in the players ability to prosper in the SPFL Premiership.

Had they known he saw our league in such a bad light, they may have questioned his targets a bit more.

The quote shows he had the wrong idea about Scottish football and was trusted that he knew what he was doing!

The board and recruitment team cannot read his mind... this is why this snippet of information would have greatly helped the board and recruitment team steer Heckingbottom right.

Bostonhibby
05-11-2019, 03:44 PM
They also track time spent at over 90% (or 95%) of top speed, how many sprints they do, heart rate etc IMHO, after hearing the detail, they're an excellent measure of fitness.

Certainly a better measure than watching from the stands.

I'll start by saying that I want every penny our site can give to Hibs to continue and I won't waiver in my support of it but I'm not really bothered if the numbers tell us we can beat sevco in a marathon.

I've become a bit more polarised recently around the contradiction between text book Cathro/heckingbottom style football coaches and their statements and reality - that is the chat and the outcome on the pitch - so maybe after a few weeks of reflection away from what's been allowed to happen recently I'll be less reactionary.

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J-C
05-11-2019, 03:48 PM
Was Stevie Mallan not by a distance the player who ran the furthest?

I cant remember tbh, I did notice Allan did less running, sprints etc but 1st name on the team sheet. Heckingbottom did mention about Messi having poor stats but makes up for that by being brilliant, problem we have is having fit enough players but poor ones also.

Phil MaGlass
05-11-2019, 03:49 PM
I can only imagine how much we have spent on players who cant hack it or are not good enough for us, to underestimate us like that is as someone else said mind boggling.

jacomo
05-11-2019, 03:49 PM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.


If scottish football is dire how bad is he?

He got it wrong because he signed a bunch of players who have shown themselves to be nowhere near good enough.

Bishop Hibee
05-11-2019, 03:53 PM
I’m absolutely raging at this. What an absolute tool. It certainly explains all the Tom Kite that he signed turning us into a League 1 side. Useless twat.

brog
05-11-2019, 03:56 PM
Have to say, this interview from Spiers gives me a renewed faith in the collective wisdom of [most of] the Hibs support.

It was after the 1-1 game at Stirling Albion that most Hibs fans were saying "these guys are not the standard" and "they don't have it".

A few vocal folk chipped back saying it was too early to judge and so on.

But, nah, we nailed it.

Let's hope it's ten years or more til we have to endure signing a job lot of lower league dross from our neighbours to the south.

But yeah, well done the Hibs support - who I would argue do actually know a thing or two about the game...

The Stirling game was on 13 July, the new signings had just arrived in Edinburgh. It was a shocking performance but it was IMO far too early to make a considered judgement about our signings. As others have pointed out there's Hibs legends, SDG for 1 who were written off after 1 or 2 games. The next game was against Alloa, only 2 of the new signings took to the park that night & they scored our 2 goals! There was still considerable disquiet on here about our performance despite it being an old guard team. Incidentally Doidge & Flo were partnered up front in 50% of our LC group games. It was obviously not the panacea that many on here have repeatedly called for. There's no doubt that our signings have been very poor but ironically, IIRC, our poorest signing IMO, Vela, was lauded on here after his debut!

Eaststand
05-11-2019, 03:57 PM
Was Stevie Mallan not by a distance the player who ran the furthest?

Yep, I think that was what the stats showed during the presentation at Eastmains, and vela was also up amongst most yards covered.
Vela is def one of the worst players I've seen playing for us in my time watching Hibs, so the stats are def not an indicator of a players ability.

GGTTH

heretoday
05-11-2019, 03:59 PM
Scottish football is on a par with Division One apart from The Old Firm.
We're on a down patch right now.
It'll get better if we, Hearts and Aberdeen improve.

J-C
05-11-2019, 04:02 PM
If scottish football is dire how bad is he?

He got it wrong because he signed a bunch of players who have shown themselves to be nowhere near good enough.

Vela, quoted as a player when younger but became decidedly average at a poor Bolton, their fans pages don't paint a great picture of him and our own Boltonhibs didn't have great things to say about him.

Newell, lower level Championship player at Rotherham, on his day is decent but shows that very rarely.

Jackson, only 90 odd games in a pro career at 25 yr old, back up at best.

Doidge, late bloomer but at a very low level, poor on loan at Bolton, 1 goal in 17 games.

James, played in a Yeovil that got relegated from div2, very slow and tactically naive, not good enough.

All these players were his key signings from the lower leagues, Naismith, Middleton and Maxwell were brought in as cover.

Heisenberg
05-11-2019, 04:04 PM
Yep, I think that was what the stats showed during the presentation at Eastmains, and vela was also up amongst most yards covered.
Vela is def one of the worst players I've seen playing for us in my time watching Hibs, so the stats are def not an indicator of a players ability.

GGTTH

Vela must have to keep moving quite a lot so he can hide from the ball to be fair.

Sir David Gray
05-11-2019, 04:07 PM
How was Jack Ross's football? 😉

Can't really remember, I was too busy enjoying hospitality. :greengrin

Bostonhibby
05-11-2019, 04:09 PM
Vela must have to keep moving quite a lot so he can hide from the ball to be fair.His running about a lot stats should be good then?

Combination of high pressing game and never seen before levels of fitness makes all the difference.[emoji6]

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Eaststand
05-11-2019, 04:12 PM
Vela must have to keep moving quite a lot so he can hide from the ball to be fair.

Yep, thats the only explanation to it for me too bud.

GGTTH

matty_f
05-11-2019, 04:16 PM
It probably is very accurate but assessing fitness levels based on other teams isn’t great. Rangers and Celtic won’t have to run or sprint as much as hibs because they probably pass the ball a lot more and have us chasing. Formations mean teams may have to run more, a 3-5-2 will have wing backs running a massive amount. My point is that saying we are very fit simply because we ran or sprinted more than other teams isn’t correct. Opposition teams probably don’t need to run or sprint as much as us because we don’t stretch the game enough.

Regardless of that, it tells the club how the players are doing against their own levels, so Hecky's assertion that they were going to be fitter than they had been before stands up.

matty_f
05-11-2019, 04:19 PM
I'll start by saying that I want every penny our site can give to Hibs to continue and I won't waiver in my support of it but I'm not really bothered if the numbers tell us we can beat sevco in a marathon.

I've become a bit more polarised recently around the contradiction between text book Cathro/heckingbottom style football coaches and their statements and reality - that is the chat and the outcome on the pitch - so maybe after a few weeks of reflection away from what's been allowed to happen recently I'll be less reactionary.

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Agreed, and it's important to position those figures in context - they were relevant to the specific discussion about whether or not we're fitter than previously (as they are objective and measurable) but hold no weight as to assessing whether or not that fitness is being used effectively in a game of football.

Both the manager and the sports science head were absolutely clear that the figures are used in conjunction with lots of other factors and that football performance would always be prioritised.

matty_f
05-11-2019, 04:21 PM
Not sure that you can make that assumption from distances run. You can be chasing the ball for 80% of the game and cover more distance but not necessarily be fitter than other teams who move the ball well, are well organised and have a good shape. You can also cover more distance if the other team are sitting in and defending for long spells. The type of running is a factor you might be running further but slower rather than a team sharp and intense in short distances.

That's right if it's the only measure being used. The GPS data used measures all sorts of stuff, not just distance run (it includes sprints, changes in direction (IIRC), time running at top speed, along with many other data points).

AngloHibs
05-11-2019, 04:29 PM
I think comparing the quality in Scotland to a particular "level" in England is a bit simplistic, TBH.

By this, I mean that good players in one country often just don't have the particular requirements to play in the other country's set up.

I still look back in horror at the raft of players Gordon Strachan brought down to Middlesbrough; all good performers at the top level in Scotland, but it just didn't translate to bottom half Championship in England. But many of them ended up back in Scotland and performed well again.

On the other side of the coin, players like Juninho and Ravanelli were stand-outs in the Premier League, but ordinary in Scotland. They weren't suddenly poorer players, they just didn't have the particular requirements for Scottish football.

easty
05-11-2019, 04:42 PM
I'm afraid I have to agree. Saw plenty games in L1 and L2 and to be fair, it's bang on par with the Scottish Premier. Absolutely. In fact, I'd say L1 is of a slightly better standard.

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I went to the League 1 play-off final in 2017, so 2 teams who finished up the top end of the table, Bradford v Millwall, and it was some of the worst football I've ever seen. Like watching some of the crappy Scottish Championship games on a Friday night on telly. I can't imagine the standard of that leagues got much better or worse since then.

Keith_M
05-11-2019, 04:43 PM
If he was chortling off to an English Premier League job having pissed it with us, improving us (and Scottish football) along the way then he might have a point.

He crashed and burned, and during his time with us made us a poorer side, weakening Scottish football further.

Scottish football might not be brilliant, there are clubs who do a lot right and clubs who do a lot wrong but at the very least it is deserving of a wee bit of respect.


:agree:

I think he underestimated the quality of player required to compete in the top half of our league.

steakbake
05-11-2019, 04:47 PM
:agree:

I think he underestimated the quality of player required to compete in the top half of our league.

Can definitely see that with some of the pretenders he brought in.

What is startling, however, is to see that written down as something he said. I always had a suspicion he'd totally underestimated the job in hand - and my boiling point was reached when he was quick to write off a Celtic game as a 'big occasion' and deemed our league game with St Johnstone as our 'cup final'.

He can **** right off with that.

Bostonhibby
05-11-2019, 04:57 PM
Agreed, and it's important to position those figures in context - they were relevant to the specific discussion about whether or not we're fitter than previously (as they are objective and measurable) but hold no weight as to assessing whether or not that fitness is being used effectively in a game of football.

Both the manager and the sports science head were absolutely clear that the figures are used in conjunction with lots of other factors and that football performance would always be prioritised.

Indeed, Alan O'Brien springs to mind - once the medication wears off.

Similar speed to Arthur Duncan. And that was it really as far as comparisons went.

Arthur did things with the ball as well.



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The_Sauz
05-11-2019, 05:09 PM
I think comparing the quality in Scotland to a particular "level" in England is a bit simplistic, TBH.

By this, I mean that good players in one country often just don't have the particular requirements to play in the other country's set up.

I still look back in horror at the raft of players Gordon Strachan brought down to Middlesbrough; all good performers at the top level in Scotland, but it just didn't translate to bottom half Championship in England. But many of them ended up back in Scotland and performed well again.

On the other side of the coin, players like Juninho and Ravanelli were stand-outs in the Premier League, but ordinary in Scotland. They weren't suddenly poorer players, they just didn't have the particular requirements for Scottish football.
Spot on mate with this post :agree:

ABZHFC
05-11-2019, 05:11 PM
How on earth was this attitude not picked up on in the interview stage, is my worry

Beefster
05-11-2019, 05:15 PM
How on earth was this attitude not picked up on in the interview stage, is my worry

Maybe he didn’t say it in the interview.

NORTHERNHIBBY
05-11-2019, 05:18 PM
It's a shame that he never had any time before the close season to get assessment of players that he needed to get in. No matter what league you are in, replace quality with dross and you will get dross back. The supporters who said wait and see what Hecky does with his own players were not wrong.....

Baader
05-11-2019, 05:21 PM
I did not take to Heckingbottom, reminded me too much of Calderwood mark II and it is glaringly obvious he underestimated the Scottish game and the size of the job he was brought in to do.

What particularly annoys me is he had a good number of games at the end of last season to determine the level of player required for this league. He should have revised his opinion and signed players accordingly. He clearly didn't learn and signed a load of lower league dross on lengthy contracts as a result. It's cost him his job and his reputation is probably in tatters but unfortunately it's set our club back years.

HFC 0-7
05-11-2019, 05:29 PM
Regardless of that, it tells the club how the players are doing against their own levels, so Hecky's assertion that they were going to be fitter than they had been before stands up.

When did they get donated to hibs? Just wondering what the benchmark was to see that their fitness had improved.

snedzuk
05-11-2019, 05:41 PM
I have to say, that doesn't surprise me in the slightest. It was bleeding obvious from the dross he signed that that was what he rated us as. In saying that, he should have been put straight on the quality required in the last 5 matches where we were playing the better teams with some ambition. Clearly that didn't alter his overall view and he carried on with the dross. I am pretty sure our recruitment team were told to back off, as Hecky had this transfer window covered. I am pretty sure the signing of Hallberg was them starting to reassert themselves.

If these are indeed the views of our ex-manager, that does put our Exec Management's judgement in serious doubt.


“In terms of Scottish football, it has been all about learning and taking in as many games as possible. I didn’t know a lot about it, being honest.”

Wonder if he said that at his interview

heid the baw
05-11-2019, 05:55 PM
To be fair to Heckingbottom, the wages on offer are probably league 2 wages so that’s the Calibre of player he was in the market for.

Far better finding players from Scotland who are over the moon getting a pay rise to 2-4K a week rather than English duds who think that wage is a pittance.

John McGinn from St Mirren over Josh Vela from Bolton as an example.

Makes me think we need a Scottish manager or someone with a thorough knowledge of the Scottish game as our new manager

Killie got dumped out of Europe by Connach Quay Nomads, huns drew with Porto 2 weeks ago and Celtic beat Lazio. Heckingbottom has a valid point about the standard of most of the teams in our league, but that does not mean that teams such as Hibs Aberdeen and Hearts can't rise above it to, say the lower English Championship level.
I totally agree with this post about wages and signing good scottish players over below average players from Lower English leagues. We need someone with an understanding of the Scottish game.

HibeeBigFly
05-11-2019, 05:57 PM
Scottish football is on a par with Division One apart from The Old Firm.
We're on a down patch right now.
It'll get better if we, Hearts and Aberdeen improve.

I just don’t agree, the English lower leagues are vastly overrated in my opinion. Wycombe are top of league 1 currently! Aberdeen weren’t thumped by Burnley or Real Sociedad. It seems to be fashionable for everyone to have a pop at our league. Outside the top 4 English sides none of the rest would come close to winning our league.

Allant1981
05-11-2019, 06:02 PM
I just don’t agree, the English lower leagues are vastly overrated in my opinion. Wycombe are top of league 1 currently! Aberdeen weren’t thumped by Burnley or Real Sociedad. It seems to be fashionable for everyone to have a pop at our league. Outside the top 4 English sides none of the rest would come close to winning our league.

you reckon that arsenal, man utd and Leicester wouldnt come close to winning our league? They would destroy teams up here, celtic and rangers may give them a game now and then but they would be miles in fro t

Hibeesforever
05-11-2019, 06:05 PM
Got to wonder what happened with spending the budget. Scandalous that the McGinn money has been wasted in this way. The new Chairman needs to put a few more million in to sort this mess out.

Torto7
05-11-2019, 06:06 PM
Killie got dumped out of Europe by Connach Quay Nomads, huns drew with Porto 2 weeks ago and Celtic beat Lazio. Heckingbottom has a valid point about the standard of most of the teams in our league, but that does not mean that teams such as Hibs Aberdeen and Hearts can't rise above it to, say the lower English Championship level.
I totally agree with this post about wages and signing good scottish players over below average players from Lower English leagues. We need someone with an understanding of the Scottish game.

Heckingbottom has no point. He's a loser who's used to low expectation and tried to lower ours during his stint here. It's the same with his signings.

The game up here is fast and physical. It's also tactically dull and refereed like it's the 90's early 00's. So guys that have come up from England with no understanding of how it is quickly find out its a goldfish bowl and the intensity gets to them.

HibeeBigFly
05-11-2019, 06:06 PM
you reckon that arsenal, man utd and Leicester wouldnt come close to winning our league? They would destroy teams up here, celtic and rangers may give them a game now and then but they would be miles in fro t

Ok maybe top 6 then, I thought Arsenal were top 4 :/. Outside the old firm I reckon the rest are bottom championship and league one. I disagree about the lower league one stuff.

blackpoolhibs
05-11-2019, 06:15 PM
Vela, quoted as a player when younger but became decidedly average at a poor Bolton, their fans pages don't paint a great picture of him and our own Boltonhibs didn't have great things to say about him.

Newell, lower level Championship player at Rotherham, on his day is decent but shows that very rarely.

Jackson, only 90 odd games in a pro career at 25 yr old, back up at best.

Doidge, late bloomer but at a very low level, poor on loan at Bolton, 1 goal in 17 games.

James, played in a Yeovil that got relegated from div2, very slow and tactically naive, not good enough.

All these players were his key signings from the lower leagues, Naismith, Middleton and Maxwell were brought in as cover.

Not one of those players you mention is better than the players who they replaced or tried to replace with arguments for Maxwell split either way.

Lennon left and we had a website full of optimism, as any manager could come in and bring a few players in to supplement the decent players we had and that would give us the push we needed to reach the heights we had during the 2nd season under Lennon.

Instead, we had a clown appointed who brought in 9 players, 9 players who are very very very average to pure pish.

Hibby Bairn
05-11-2019, 06:50 PM
Not one of those players you mention is better than the players who they replaced or tried to replace with arguments for Maxwell split either way.

Lennon left and we had a website full of optimism, as any manager could come in and bring a few players in to supplement the decent players we had and that would give us the push we needed to reach the heights we had during the 2nd season under Lennon.

Instead, we had a clown appointed who brought in 9 players, 9 players who are very very very average to pure pish.

On balance I’d go with edging firmly towards the pure pish end of the spectrum.

Pagan Hibernia
05-11-2019, 06:52 PM
Just proves what many of us suspected in the summer when he brought in a load of lower league dross, and then had it confirmed with the results this season.

He completely underestimated the game up here. Scottish football wasn’t beneath him, he was beneath Scottish football, and to have failed so completely at ‘lower league one level’ is quite a stain on his cv.

G B Young
05-11-2019, 07:10 PM
He’s not wrong is he? Scottish football is dire right now.

Indeed. Bar the Glasgow giants I think the standard is the worst I've known it. The barometer is Europe and (again bar the big two) our clubs are consistently mere also rans. And as for the national team, well, there's no more to be said about how pathetic they are.

I think Heckingbottom wasn't far wrong, though I'd say upper half of League 1 might be more accurate. Most of our top clubs would toil in the Championship.

Danderhall Hibs
05-11-2019, 07:23 PM
you reckon that arsenal, man utd and Leicester wouldnt come close to winning our league? They would destroy teams up here, celtic and rangers may give them a game now and then but they would be miles in fro t

They’d have to take the same TV money as clubs up here though. And if we’re going down south we’d need to get a share of the billions.

Then we could do a fairer comparison of where we’d sit in the leagues.

J-C
05-11-2019, 07:24 PM
Not one of those players you mention is better than the players who they replaced or tried to replace with arguments for Maxwell split either way.

Lennon left and we had a website full of optimism, as any manager could come in and bring a few players in to supplement the decent players we had and that would give us the push we needed to reach the heights we had during the 2nd season under Lennon.

Instead, we had a clown appointed who brought in 9 players, 9 players who are very very very average to pure pish.


I left out Hallberg as I don't believe he was Hecky signing and so far he looks a pretty decent technical player.

He looked on paper a similar coach to Stubbs, young and with a good rep as an U21 coach at Barnsley, so yes we were all a bit optimistic but once we read about his time at Barnsley and Leeds and we saw the 1st few games, most were not impressed. He's managed in one fell swoop to take our club back 4 years.

Scouse Hibee
05-11-2019, 07:34 PM
I just don’t agree, the English lower leagues are vastly overrated in my opinion. Wycombe are top of league 1 currently! Aberdeen weren’t thumped by Burnley or Real Sociedad. It seems to be fashionable for everyone to have a pop at our league. Outside the top 4 English sides none of the rest would come close to winning our league.

Your having a laugh if you think teams outside the top four in England couldn’t win our league.

Sir David Gray
05-11-2019, 07:40 PM
I just don’t agree, the English lower leagues are vastly overrated in my opinion. Wycombe are top of league 1 currently! Aberdeen weren’t thumped by Burnley or Real Sociedad. It seems to be fashionable for everyone to have a pop at our league. Outside the top 4 English sides none of the rest would come close to winning our league.

The top 4 being...?

If you're meaning the actual top 4 just now then outside of that you have Arsenal and Tottenham who I'd say would stand a pretty good chance of winning the Scottish Premiership.

What people need to remember though is that the money in the English Premiership compared with the money in the Scottish Premiership is gigantic so it's not really a comparison that's worth making.

If Celtic, Rangers, Hibs, Hearts and Aberdeen had access to the finances that the clubs in England have, I've no doubt that all five clubs would be in the English Premiership.

blackpoolhibs
05-11-2019, 07:41 PM
I left out Hallberg as I don't believe he was Hecky signing and so far he looks a pretty decent technical player.

He looked on paper a similar coach to Stubbs, young and with a good rep as an U21 coach at Barnsley, so yes we were all a bit optimistic but once we read about his time at Barnsley and Leeds and we saw the 1st few games, most were not impressed. He's managed in one fell swoop to take our club back 4 years.

I'd forgotten about Hallberg, and yes he is probably the one player signed under Heckingbottom who we could say is a plus.

I wouldnt say he was an improvement on our midfield from 2 years ago, but he has started well and we'd all want him in our starting line up.

We had a slump under Lennon, he went and we were told how good the new man was and how he was going to bring the good times back.

He managed to bluff his way into the club with his waffle, he also managed to slaver enough bull to convince the fans too for a while, but if you had any football intelligence at all, just watching these signings against Stirling albion or Carlisle in that friendly should have had the bells ringing in your head.

The constant waffle after each game about how we should have played and what we should have done proved to me what a slaver he really was, and he'd be much better as a football pundit, as he can clearly see what needs to be done, with none of the skills to do it.

Frankhfc
05-11-2019, 07:44 PM
Bar Celtic and Rangers the rest of the Scottish teams would probably either struggle in the lower half of the Championship and possibly float around the top end of Division One.

The situation is a simple one - Finance. English football attracts money that Scotland can only dream of.

Until Scotland has a deal in place matching the English one I'm afraid we'll be the ones looking on at down south with envy for some time to come.

Doesn't stop us having competitive leagues up here though and striving to one day produce top class footballers.

Danderhall Hibs
05-11-2019, 07:46 PM
Your having a laugh if you think teams outside the top four in England couldn’t win our league.

They’d lose all their players mate - they couldn’t sustain the wages on £/m a year from Sky.

J-C
05-11-2019, 07:48 PM
I'd forgotten about Hallberg, and yes he is probably the one player signed under Heckingbottom who we could say is a plus.

I wouldnt say he was an improvement on our midfield from 2 years ago, but he has started well and we'd all want him in our starting line up.

We had a slump under Lennon, he went and we were told how good the new man was and how he was going to bring the good times back.

He managed to bluff his way into the club with his waffle, he also managed to slaver enough bull to convince the fans too for a while, but if you had any football intelligence at all, just watching these signings against Stirling albion or Carlisle in that friendly should have had the bells ringing in your head.

The constant waffle after each game about how we should have played and what we should have done proved to me what a slaver he really was, and he'd be much better as a football pundit, as he can clearly see what needs to be done, with none of the skills to do it.


I mentioned during the group stages of the Betfred why was he treating them as glorified friendlies, surely these were our 1st competitive matches and should be treated as such, that set off alarm bells for me right away, they were played with little urgency and the rest of the season just plodded along the same way.

Frankhfc
05-11-2019, 07:50 PM
They’d lose all their players mate - they couldn’t sustain the wages on £/m a year from Sky.

We're referring to squads as they are just now, not a British league where every club had the same tv money.

Allant1981
05-11-2019, 07:54 PM
They’d lose all their players mate - they couldn’t sustain the wages on £/m a year from Sky.

That's not what the poster said though, think he was meaning as is

Scouse Hibee
05-11-2019, 07:55 PM
They’d lose all their players mate - they couldn’t sustain the wages on £/m a year from Sky.

Good point 😁
But as is existing teams would walk it.

Danderhall Hibs
05-11-2019, 08:00 PM
Good point 😁
But as is existing teams would walk it.

No doubt about it. Budget of multiples of 1000s x more so should win it and win every game on their way to winning it.

I wonder if PHs point was referring to the squad budgets rather than the standard? It would make more sense as to why Spiers didn’t bother with the quote in the spring?

Danderhall Hibs
05-11-2019, 08:01 PM
That's not what the poster said though, think he was meaning as is


We're referring to squads as they are just now, not a British league where every club had the same tv money.

:aok:

Bishop Hibee
05-11-2019, 08:04 PM
I saw Championship Middlesbrough pump League 1 Peterborough Utd 5-0 in the FA Cup in January. Our team at that time would have beaten that Peterborough team who were in the play off places.

League One in England is poor and Heckingbottom’s failure is explained in his ignorant comment to Spears.

calumhibee1
05-11-2019, 08:16 PM
Good point 😁
But as is existing teams would walk it.

:agree:

There’s probably at least 10 teams in the EPL who would win our league and could well remain unbeaten while doing it.

calamitus
05-11-2019, 08:30 PM
I said at the time that recruiting from the bottom of the English market, with it's over inflated prices instead of getting players from the obviously under-rated Scottish market seemed to be the exact opposite of what we should be doing.

Paisley Hibby
05-11-2019, 09:01 PM
In terms of technical ability Scottish football may not be brilliant. However it is played at pace and is strongly physical. That is what Heckingbottom failed to grasp. His signings lacked pace and the physicality to cope with Scottish football.

Nailed it. And as it's a small league in which teams play each other on average 4 times a season, if you're a one trick pony you'll soon get found out

Hi Heid Yin
05-11-2019, 09:02 PM
What a complete and utter fud. The utter complacency that lies behind his assumpton as to the standard of the Scottish Premier league in general and Hibernian in particular at that time is breathtaking.

The sheer level of ignorance and arrogance that his attitude speaks to, explains almost completely the underperformance of the failed players he signed and the completely uninspiring and insipid performances his teams regularly turned in.

And it raises massive questions about those who recruited him and the recruitment process.

My thoughts exactly.:top marks

Sammy7nil
05-11-2019, 09:10 PM
:agree:

There’s probably at least 10 teams in the EPL who would win our league and could well remain unbeaten while doing it.

There really isn't no way ten teams play the OF eight times and remain unbeaten all season. Maybe four at an absolute push.

BlackSheep
05-11-2019, 09:10 PM
How on earth was this attitude not picked up on in the interview stage, is my worry

Thing is, he would have been 100% convinced he knew what was needed... and if he talks a good game in an interview then he gets the job.

CMurdoch
05-11-2019, 09:15 PM
The Hibs Cathro.
Full of wind and pish and our wind and pishers fell for it :agree:.

calumhibee1
05-11-2019, 09:21 PM
There really isn't no way ten teams play the OF eight times and remain unbeaten all season. Maybe four at an absolute push.

Liverpool, Man City, Leicester, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs I'd fancy. I actually just had a look at the table and you're right, probably not as many as 10 but still a good few with plenty others that would win the league fairly comfortably I reckon.

Sammy7nil
05-11-2019, 09:25 PM
Liverpool, Man City, Leicester, Chelsea, Arsenal, Spurs I'd fancy. I actually just had a look at the table and you're right, probably not as many as 10 but still a good few with plenty others that would win the league fairly comfortably I reckon.

Yip and give the OF £300 million extra each over the next five years and they would be in the top six in the EPL

They EPL does not have six teams bigger than the OF they just have more money.

CMurdoch
05-11-2019, 09:34 PM
No doubt about it. Budget of multiples of 1000s x more so should win it and win every game on their way to winning it.

I wonder if PHs point was referring to the squad budgets rather than the standard? It would make more sense as to why Spiers didn’t bother with the quote in the spring?

That is a very good point. Had the quote been as Spiers now said it was he wouldn't have been able to stop himself making it the cornerstone of a big EXCLUSIVE to impress his colleagues and bosses.

Hibeesmad
05-11-2019, 09:43 PM
Yip and give the OF £300 million extra each over the next five years and they would be in the top six in the EPL

They EPL does not have six teams bigger than the OF they just have more money.

Give a team in Scotland the same budget as the OF and over the next 5 years they would finish above them.

Scouse Hibee
05-11-2019, 09:46 PM
Yip and give the OF £300 million extra each over the next five years and they would be in the top six in the EPL

They EPL does not have six teams bigger than the OF they just have more money.

Not so sure the OF would displace two of the top six teams in five years.

hibsbollah
05-11-2019, 09:50 PM
Reminds me of that old mantra about 'understanding the price of everything and the value of nothing'.

In terms of budgets, the likes of Lincoln City, Gillingham and Rochdale are in the same market for players as midtable SPL sides. (Lincoln I believe pay more than we do) That doesn't mean they are stronger sides or their players will automatically fit up here.

iwasthere1972
05-11-2019, 09:53 PM
I could sit here and write paragraph after paragraph about Paul Heckingbottom but I won't. I'll keep it short instead.

What an arrogant twat. Good riddance.

Sammy7nil
05-11-2019, 10:04 PM
Give a team in Scotland the same budget as the OF and over the next 5 years they would finish above them.

I don't disagree other than their ability to attract even more money with crowds sponsors etc.

[QUOTE=Scouse Hibee;5981825]Not so sure the OF would displace two of the top six teams in five years.[

They would generate far more money than the vast majority of other teams with crowds sponsors etc it may take them more than five years but it would be interesting to see.

#2 Double Tap
05-11-2019, 10:13 PM
Not so sure the OF would displace two of the top six teams in five years.

you give celtic the EPL money, they would challenge for the title pretty quickly imo, players would be lining up to sign for them, rangers would be right behind celtic, people forget how massive the OF clubs are.

in the EPL they would have so much pulling power, no player is gonna chose leciester, everton or even chelsea over the old firm......if they could match the wages obviously......it would be the biggest game on the calendar down there as well, its only really liverpool who can match the in ground atmosphere and passion the old firm fans can generate.

Scouse Hibee
05-11-2019, 10:17 PM
you give celtic the EPL money, they would challenge for the title pretty quickly imo, players would be lining up to sign for them, rangers would be right behind celtic, people forget how massive the OF clubs are.

in the EPL they would have so much pulling power, no player is gonna chose leciester, everton or even chelsea over the old firm......if they could match the wages obviously......it would be the biggest game on the calendar down there as well, its only really liverpool who can match the in ground atmosphere and passion the old firm fans can generate.

If it was that simple Liverpool would have won it recently rather than thirty years ago and Manchester United wouldn’t be in the doldrums.

Sammy7nil
05-11-2019, 10:22 PM
If it was that simple Liverpool would have won it recently rather than thirty years ago and Manchester United wouldn’t be in the doldrums.

Don't think anyone said they would win it but they would challenge. I think their home records would be pretty good. Most EPL teams play in Church like atmospheres. Man Utd and Chelsea are good examples of this.

Killiehibbie
05-11-2019, 10:25 PM
His thoughts on the players required were woeful just like his style of play. His level looks to be about National League North, Kettering might do for him.

#2 Double Tap
05-11-2019, 10:25 PM
If it was that simple Liverpool would have won it recently rather than thirty years ago and Manchester United wouldn’t be in the doldrums.

i never said win it, i said challenge, or meant too.........man u is poor recruitment, I had in my mind, the old firm not messing about and making good decisions. haha.

They would be able to attract the best, suppose that doesnt mean they would buy them, much like liverpool for the past 30 years.

I see your point and it is pretty valid, but I still believe the old firm, celtic particularly would hold their own down there against the best.

blackpoolhibs
05-11-2019, 10:25 PM
you give celtic the EPL money, they would challenge for the title pretty quickly imo, players would be lining up to sign for them, rangers would be right behind celtic, people forget how massive the OF clubs are.

in the EPL they would have so much pulling power, no player is gonna chose leciester, everton or even chelsea over the old firm......if they could match the wages obviously......it would be the biggest game on the calendar down there as well, its only really liverpool who can match the in ground atmosphere and passion the old firm fans can generate.

I used to think this, but Newcastle and Sunderland have had the money the EPL give out, and nobody who's any good wants to go that far north.

The best players do not want to go any further than the north west of England, and some of them are only there because they are owned by oil rich sheiks.

jacomo
05-11-2019, 10:27 PM
That is a very good point. Had the quote been as Spiers now said it was he wouldn't have been able to stop himself making it the cornerstone of a big EXCLUSIVE to impress his colleagues and bosses.


Not sure that’s the case. Journos sit on stories all the time, for all sorts of reasons.

Sammy7nil
05-11-2019, 10:29 PM
I used to think this, but Newcastle and Sunderland have had the money the EPL give out, and nobody who's any good wants to go that far north.

The best players do not want to go any further than the north west of England, and some of them are only there because they are owned by oil rich sheiks.

I might be wrong but I think OF are a bigger draw. They managed to get half the England national team, Albertz, Laudrup, Klose etc and that was to play in a Mickey Mouse league.

#2 Double Tap
05-11-2019, 10:31 PM
I used to think this, but Newcastle and Sunderland have had the money the EPL give out, and nobody who's any good wants to go that far north.

The best players do not want to go any further than the north west of England, and some of them are only there because they are owned by oil rich sheiks.

don;t you think that the players would want to play in the biggest game and best atmospheres?

Do you think england has a bigger game than the old firm derby>?
liverpool v man u? spurs v arsenal?

Those games are huge, but to my mind they lack the spark the old firm derby can have.

Renfrew_Hibby
05-11-2019, 10:40 PM
I used to think this, but Newcastle and Sunderland have had the money the EPL give out, and nobody who's any good wants to go that far north.

The best players do not want to go any further than the north west of England, and some of them are only there because they are owned by oil rich sheiks.

Even London born players think Manchester or Liverpool is the dark side of the moon. Raheem Sterling even now is constantly homesick for London.

Over the years many top class Spaniards, Italians and Brazilians have only made the move to England on the proviso their agent fixes a move to Arsenal or Chelsea.

Man United could never have put together the great Arsenal team of Henry, Bergkamp, Petit ect as it was the global culture of London, the opportunity to live the London life that enticed them to the Premiership, not necessarily the money as they could have earned as much with United.

The Baldmans Comb
05-11-2019, 11:04 PM
"He wiz a nice guy", "Ah wish him aww the best" "He tried really really hard",
"Thanks Hecky guid luck mate". "Nae hard feelings it never worked oot"

Pass the *** sick bag, Hecky is an arrogant Yorkshireman who thought he knew best and totally disrespected and underestimated Scottish football.

He completely failed to identify that there is an identity to Scottish football where hard work, pace, passion and strength are integral parts of the game in this country.

Its deep in the English football psyche to look down on other football cultures and Heckingbottom is no different to umpteen others.

England as a whole is much better than many of the football (and Rugby) managers, pundits and commentators it produces.

jgl07
05-11-2019, 11:05 PM
I saw Championship Middlesbrough pump League 1 Peterborough Utd 5-0 in the FA Cup in January. Our team at that time would have beaten that Peterborough team who were in the play off places.

League One in England is poor and Heckingbottom’s failure is explained in his ignorant comment to Spears.

Self delusion I’m afraid. Half of the SPFL Premiership attract crowds lower than many in League One and are nowhere near able to compete finianially for players with many clubs in that Division.

Scottish football is struggling financially even compared to lower League English clubs.

tonyrougier123
05-11-2019, 11:30 PM
Exactly as i thought!!
He thought he could stroll in sign any player coach them and it would pass,what he done was sign anyone and uncoached the lot!!
Cheers paul.
Pedigree means nothing!You have to have a knack to seeing what a player or coach can bring to your setup.

ehf
05-11-2019, 11:57 PM
I could sit here and write paragraph after paragraph about Paul Heckingbottom but I won't. I'll keep it short instead.

What an arrogant twat. Good riddance.

:agree: total bellend.

NAE NOOKIE
06-11-2019, 12:06 AM
Most of my opinion has already been echoed by others on this thread.

I was aghast when I watched his set up against Celtic at ER in the Scottish cup, it was like going back 10 or 20 years as a manager afraid of the 'Old Firm' opposition purely because it was them sent out a team to reflect his mindset. It was almost as if he hadnt watched or been aware of how Hibs had managed to be one of the few clubs in the last 4 years to actually regularly give both arse cheeks a game.

From the article it really did seem as if he had a poor but predictable view of Scottish football based on nothing more than hearsay without any practical knowledge ... all so reminiscent of Talk Sport pundits who think they know our game because they have had a few freebies to the Ugly Sisters hate fest, have never set foot in any other Scottish grounds in their lives but still think that makes them experts and qualified to comment. Even then he had enough time in charge to learn what was what and the result of that was signing a load of players who so far have produced nothing and a style of play totally unsuited to getting results from what he did have to work with.

For the whole of this season Heckingbottom's Hibs played one of two ways depending on the opposition .... get in front and then give up 30 yards of territory allowing the opposition back into the game, as we did with Hearts, or set out conservatively go behind and then play much better because he was forced to attack more decisively, the Livvie game and even the LC semi being classic examples.

When you are a manager your opinion of the league you are going into is irrelevant ... You must learn what works and what doesnt 'in that league' find a style of play that wins games and source the standard of player required to carry it out, Heckingbottom failed on both counts.

Its pretty clear that whoever we get next has to have at least some practical experience either as a manager or at least as a player in Scotland ... No more English 'students of the game' with their theories based on nothing more than knowing who Celtic and Rangers are and thinking that being not pish in the lower reaches of the EFL means you will be a high standard Scottish premiership player, because clearly 80% of the time its patently not true.

Colr
06-11-2019, 05:56 AM
Wages-wise, Scotland might compare with the bottom of Div 1 but all of the English league wages are inflated by the money coming into the game at the top. Players in England are paid more than their mark in terms of quality and don’t offer good value. We’ve seen that in the ones that have come in. No more over priced English league players. Home grown and international only.

Clarence
06-11-2019, 06:12 AM
I have no first hand evidence but I truly believe PH was hired because The Club had such a toxic relationship with Lennon and they wanted someone that they felt they could get on with and who wouldn’t be a challenge to them. PH’s track record and lack of knowledge of the Scottish game should have been red flags but these factors were overlooked because the board didn’t want another Enfant Terrible on their hands and PH presented what they felt was a cheep and cheerful solution.

Since452
06-11-2019, 06:28 AM
I have no first hand evidence but I truly believe PH was hired because The Club had such a toxic relationship with Lennon and they wanted someone that they felt they could get on with and who wouldn’t be a challenge to them. PH’s track record and lack of knowledge of the Scottish game should have been red flags but these factors were overlooked because the board didn’t want another Enfant Terrible on their hands and PH presented what they felt was a cheep and cheerful solution.

Agree. We went for Mr nice guy after Lennon. I don't want to slate him as there's been enough unsavoury things said about him on here but reading the Barnsley and Leeds forums since his sacking they've both said he's bland and uninspiring. Pretty much what many Hibs fans have said. Lennon to Hecky was one extreme to another personality wise.

Heisenberg
06-11-2019, 06:31 AM
Agree. We went for Mr nice guy after Lennon. I don't want to slate him as there's been enough unsavoury things said about him on here but reading the Barnsley and Leeds forums since his sacking they've both said he's bland and uninspiring. Pretty much what many Hibs fans have said. Lennon to Hecky was one extreme to another personality wise.

Which is maybe why it worked so well at the start? The players responded well to a change in style. It soon went stale though and his influx of new players only made matters worse.

Since452
06-11-2019, 07:55 AM
Which is maybe why it worked so well at the start? The players responded well to a change in style. It soon went stale though and his influx of new players only made matters worse.

Yeah i think it was a deliberate tactic

danhibees1875
06-11-2019, 08:01 AM
Wages-wise, Scotland might compare with the bottom of Div 1 but all of the English league wages are inflated by the money coming into the game at the top. Players in England are paid more than their mark in terms of quality and don’t offer good value. We’ve seen that in the ones that have come in. No more over priced English league players. Home grown and international only.

I agree with your point generally but disagree with the final point - we can still pick up good players from England - it's just the level of reliance we had on the market under PH that done us over.

Alex Trager
06-11-2019, 08:13 AM
Maybe he’s right about the quality.

He was definitely wrong about the style however.

Cataplana
06-11-2019, 08:33 AM
Most of my opinion has already been echoed by others on this thread.

I was aghast when I watched his set up against Celtic at ER in the Scottish cup, it was like going back 10 or 20 years as a manager afraid of the 'Old Firm' opposition purely because it was them sent out a team to reflect his mindset. It was almost as if he hadnt watched or been aware of how Hibs had managed to be one of the few clubs in the last 4 years to actually regularly give both arse cheeks a game.

From the article it really did seem as if he had a poor but predictable view of Scottish football based on nothing more than hearsay without any practical knowledge ... all so reminiscent of Talk Sport pundits who think they know our game because they have had a few freebies to the Ugly Sisters hate fest, have never set foot in any other Scottish grounds in their lives but still think that makes them experts and qualified to comment. Even then he had enough time in charge to learn what was what and the result of that was signing a load of players who so far have produced nothing and a style of play totally unsuited to getting results from what he did have to work with.

For the whole of this season Heckingbottom's Hibs played one of two ways depending on the opposition .... get in front and then give up 30 yards of territory allowing the opposition back into the game, as we did with Hearts, or set out conservatively go behind and then play much better because he was forced to attack more decisively, the Livvie game and even the LC semi being classic examples.

When you are a manager your opinion of the league you are going into is irrelevant ... You must learn what works and what doesnt 'in that league' find a style of play that wins games and source the standard of player required to carry it out, Heckingbottom failed on both counts.

Its pretty clear that whoever we get next has to have at least some practical experience either as a manager or at least as a player in Scotland ... No more English 'students of the game' with their theories based on nothing more than knowing who Celtic and Rangers are and thinking that being not pish in the lower reaches of the EFL means you will be a high standard Scottish premiership player, because clearly 80% of the time its patently not true.

I'm not sure if playing in Scotland is particularly relevant. Gerrard is making a good fist of it at Rangers, as Rodgers did at Celtic.

Looking to England, very few of the successful managers there had anything to do with English football before arrival

It is much more about what you say earlier in the post. A good manager sizes up the league and decides what will work there .

Heckingbottom's inability to learn from his own experiences was his weakness. I agree with everybody who says he had a clichéd and lazy view of Scotland.

Antifa Hibs
06-11-2019, 09:12 AM
Must have alot of League One fans on here if they are agreeing with Heckingbottom?

If the Scottish Premiership was or is on par with league one in England (and i'm going to assume it isn't) who the hell gives a ****? Why do English and Scottish have an obsession with comparing leagues? The only thing Scottish and English football have in common is wages and tickets are paid in the same currency. It's a different country, a different league, different structure, different population, different income. Weird behavior. Does a Juve fan in Italy have some weird obsession about Grasshopper Zurich and FC Basel and the Swiss League being tinpot? I wonder in Germany if some Munich fan laughs at Brondby being "Bundesliga 2" at best and my granny could win that league?

Alfiembra
06-11-2019, 09:23 AM
Haven't read the full thread and may have already been said. If PH reckons the SPFL is bottom half league one then that makes him a league 2 or lower head coach because he had us heading for relegation.

Biggie
06-11-2019, 09:28 AM
Haven't read the full thread and may have already been said. If PH reckons the SPFL is bottom half league one then that makes him a league 2 or lower head coach because he had us heading for relegation.

Exactly, the only thing that was lower league 1 standard was his ability....on a good day.
Bloody cheeky B....

jgl07
06-11-2019, 09:56 AM
I might be wrong but I think OF are a bigger draw. They managed to get half the England national team, Albertz, Laudrup, Klose etc and that was to play in a Mickey Mouse league.
Rangers got half the England team at a time when English teams were banned from playing in European competition thanks to the behaviour of Liverpool fans at Heysel.

They also recruited players by paying them money the club did not have and by using dubious tax dodging schemes. That ended up with the liquidation and demise of Rangers FC.

Scotty Leither
06-11-2019, 09:57 AM
I did not take to Heckingbottom, reminded me too much of Calderwood mark II and it is glaringly obvious he underestimated the Scottish game and the size of the job he was brought in to do.

What particularly annoys me is he had a good number of games at the end of last season to determine the level of player required for this league. He should have revised his opinion and signed players accordingly. He clearly didn't learn and signed a load of lower league dross on lengthy contracts as a result. It's cost him his job and his reputation is probably in tatters but unfortunately it's set our club back years.

Yup...the same Colin Calderwood who as David Forsyth told a Work Together meeting back in 2012, had to ask to be supplied with books about Hibs because he knew nothing about the club.

Looks like the same mistake has been made again with this gadgie, and his mythical "high press".

Those of us who called him out on here after the meek 0-2 surrender to Celtic in the Cup last season, in a free-hit game where his team barely crossed the halfway line, were told "be patient, he's just in the door, etc", yet that match summed up his dull, insipid, one-dimensional timid approach, so it does beg the question as to precisely what cack he spouted at interview, and who fell for it?

He's not the only one who should be on his bike, and i'll venture the AGM will be stage-managed so that any questions about our erstwhile manager will be deemed "out of bounds" (as he should have been after the P45 Derby).

J-C
06-11-2019, 10:19 AM
I'm not sure if playing in Scotland is particularly relevant. Gerrard is making a good fist of it at Rangers, as Rodgers did at Celtic.

Looking to England, very few of the successful managers there had anything to do with English football before arrival

It is much more about what you say earlier in the post. A good manager sizes up the league and decides what will work there .

Heckingbottom's inability to learn from his own experiences was his weakness. I agree with everybody who says he had a clichéd and lazy view of Scotland.

Gerard has a very good budget, learnt from last year has improved Rangers where they can challenge Celtic, Heckingbottom looked happy to mid table mediocrity.

brog
06-11-2019, 10:59 AM
Most of my opinion has already been echoed by others on this thread.

I was aghast when I watched his set up against Celtic at ER in the Scottish cup, it was like going back 10 or 20 years as a manager afraid of the 'Old Firm' opposition purely because it was them sent out a team to reflect his mindset. It was almost as if he hadnt watched or been aware of how Hibs had managed to be one of the few clubs in the last 4 years to actually regularly give both arse cheeks a game.

From the article it really did seem as if he had a poor but predictable view of Scottish football based on nothing more than hearsay without any practical knowledge ... all so reminiscent of Talk Sport pundits who think they know our game because they have had a few freebies to the Ugly Sisters hate fest, have never set foot in any other Scottish grounds in their lives but still think that makes them experts and qualified to comment. Even then he had enough time in charge to learn what was what and the result of that was signing a load of players who so far have produced nothing and a style of play totally unsuited to getting results from what he did have to work with.

For the whole of this season Heckingbottom's Hibs played one of two ways depending on the opposition .... get in front and then give up 30 yards of territory allowing the opposition back into the game, as we did with Hearts, or set out conservatively go behind and then play much better because he was forced to attack more decisively, the Livvie game and even the LC semi being classic examples.

When you are a manager your opinion of the league you are going into is irrelevant ... You must learn what works and what doesnt 'in that league' find a style of play that wins games and source the standard of player required to carry it out, Heckingbottom failed on both counts.

Its pretty clear that whoever we get next has to have at least some practical experience either as a manager or at least as a player in Scotland ... No more English 'students of the game' with their theories based on nothing more than knowing who Celtic and Rangers are and thinking that being not pish in the lower reaches of the EFL means you will be a high standard Scottish premiership player, because clearly 80% of the time its patently not true.

Perfect summary. As someone who lives in London, the arrogance & ignorance from many so called football fans down here is truly dreadful.

gillythehibby
06-11-2019, 11:14 AM
It doesn't take Graham Spiers to fill column inches to tell the vast majority of us what we knew from early on in the season. I turned to family and friends and said that most of those signings would be siting on the bench or in the stand. No doubt masses of Hibs fans said the same. Picking guys up from the 3rd and 4th tier of English football is a recipe for disaster. You don't have to be a coaching guru to have spotted that. The man talked a good game and no doubt wooed Dempster and Co with this rhetoric, but his respect and knowledge of the game here was sadly lacking. In Stubbs and Lennon you had guys who could spot a decent player AND they had the ability to convince or influence better players to come to Hibs for less wages. Yer man Hecky doesn't have that ability. You can spraff crap about ingenious coaching methods all you like, but it really comes down to good players and man management. Football's a simple game really and good players generally find a way to win regardless of what ***** managers say. Here's hoping we employ a good one this time around. GGTTH:flag:

Sammy7nil
06-11-2019, 09:00 PM
Must have alot of League One fans on here if they are agreeing with Heckingbottom?

If the Scottish Premiership was or is on par with league one in England (and i'm going to assume it isn't) who the hell gives a ****? Why do English and Scottish have an obsession with comparing leagues? The only thing Scottish and English football have in common is wages and tickets are paid in the same currency. It's a different country, a different league, different structure, different population, different income. Weird behavior. Does a Juve fan in Italy have some weird obsession about Grasshopper Zurich and FC Basel and the Swiss League being tinpot? I wonder in Germany if some Munich fan laughs at Brondby being "Bundesliga 2" at best and my granny could win that league?

Strange post we are part of the UK \ GB we are part of the same country. We have the same language TV \ press etc none of which Austrian Italians or Germans have. It may be a poor comparison but deary deary there there was always going to be one.