Is it fair to judge Paul Heckingbottom against the Old Firm..?

[Carheenlea]

Some may argue that it isn’t when you take into consideration the financial gulf between squads, but we used to be held up as an example of how to play against them, and our positive approach to games served us well and fans would go to Ibrox and Celtic Park with real expectation and would be disappointed with only a point, and there was still a huge gulf financially between the clubs.

We have slipped alarmingly quickly from being a side who went to Glasgow and caused problems to trying to keep the score respectable and hoping we don’t get embarrassed. This to me is a good example as to why Paul Heckingbottom is not the man for us.

[Fife-Hibee]

He's not being judged against the old firm, he's being judged against the entirety of his time here. Lets not make his criticism about the Hibs/Celtic game. It's about so much more than that.

[J-C]

As above, he's being judged on league position and his record over the past 15 games.

[matty_f]

Rangers and Celtic have upped their game considerably this season, after Celtic having been able to coast the leagues over the last however many years. The result of the competition that Rangers are now giving Celtic is that they're both having to play exceptionally well consistently.
So far, Celtic have scored :
5 against us
4 against Aberdeen
6 against Ross County
7 against St Johnstone
5 against Motherwell

Without going through Rangers' scores as well, I know they tell a similar story.

The Glasgow sides are miles ahead of the rest now, and while you might see the odd result that bucks the trend, the overwhelming story is that they are significantly better than the rest of the league.

Hecky shouldn't be judged on yesterday, but unfortunately for him there is a whole load of other games with teams we should be doing much better against.

[Since452]

Celtic and Rangers are pumping most teams not just us

[A Hi-Bee]

Not judging him against the filth from the west, judging him on all the games this season he is crap and needs to go before its to late. We will never be able to compete against the uglies but we can put up a bit of a fight.
The old firm died bye the way a few years ago, no such thing now.

[Pete]

Game management against the other teams is where we're falling short. It needs to improve and fast.

[makaveli1875]

yes its fair to judge him , with the resources they have expect them to win more often than not but have a go at them FFS and at least go out on your shield
He's shat the bed every time weve played either of them

[SRHibs]

As above, he's being judged on league position and his record over the past 15 games.

Except, the general consensus before yesterday was that we expected to get hammered, and it was effectively a "free hit" at Celtic, which would have no bearing on Hecky's situation. After the game, based on the toxicity on here, this was not the case.

[Andy74]

yes its fair to judge him , with the resources they have expect them to win more often than not but have a go at them FFS and at least go out on your shield
He's shat the bed every time weve played either of them

Think we did have a go.

When you look at Hearts today they did sit in and are now 3 adrift at this point.

We were largely a couple in it and were close enough to being within 1.

I get the wider complaint but not about yesterday.

We did draw against them recently too.

[HFC 0-7]

Rangers and Celtic have upped their game considerably this season, after Celtic having been able to coast the leagues over the last however many years. The result of the competition that Rangers are now giving Celtic is that they're both having to play exceptionally well consistently.
So far, Celtic have scored :
5 against us
4 against Aberdeen
6 against Ross County
7 against St Johnstone
5 against Motherwell

Without going through Rangers' scores as well, I know they tell a similar story.

The Glasgow sides are miles ahead of the rest now, and while you might see the odd result that bucks the trend, the overwhelming story is that they are significantly better than the rest of the league.

Hecky shouldn't be judged on yesterday, but unfortunately for him there is a whole load of other games with teams we should be doing much better against.

He should definitely be judged against the old firm, maybe not results but definitely the performances. It’s not been long since we were very competitive against them. Yesterday could have been an absolute tanking, when you look at how easily the got forward against us, if Forrest hadn’t been so greedy at times plus the boy that got a couple for them could have had about 5.

These threads to me are just people looking for excuses as to why we aren’t so bad.

[chrisski33]

It's plain and clear he's being judged by our league position and results against other teams. Where has the op been??

[makaveli1875]

Think we did have a go.

When you look at Hearts today they did sit in and are now 3 adrift at this point.

We were largely a couple in it and were close enough to being within 1.

I get the wider complaint but not about yesterday.

We did draw against them recently too.

By have a go i mean get tore into them for 90 mins not 10 minutes when were already 2 down and being torn to shreds

[basehibby]

I don't think anyone's been judging Hecks exclusively on games vs the OF although if they had then the record would not look too encouraging. As it goes I think most would agree though that at least we had a good go at Celtic yesterday - which was a welcome improvement from our last cup tie against them where we seemed to be merely trying to keep the score down - a ridiculous objective in a cup tie.

Nope - it's the results against the Hamiltons, Livingstons and Ross Countys which have convinced many fans that he's not got what it takes. That's certainly been the case for me anyway.

[greenlex]

By have a go i mean get tore into them for 90 mins not 10 minutes when were already 2 down and being torn to shreds

We were Having a go yesterday and left a 5 v 3 situation for their last goal. I dread to think what the score might have been after 90 mins of that.

[erin go bragh]

No it’s not but his inability to beat any other team bar St Mirren should have him sacked on Monday.

[MrSmith]

I never even considered the old firm as part of his judgement. Last season's final home game against Kilmarnock was the first indication where things were going. Its gotten worse since, I even complained - on this very board - that I thought we did our transfer business far too early (contradicting my previous years complaints!) making it feel cheap instead of thoughtful. From there, we had the LC 'warm ups' FFS! And for me, it went down hill rapidly.

[J-C]

Except, the general consensus before yesterday was that we expected to get hammered, and it was effectively a "free hit" at Celtic, which would have no bearing on Hecky's situation. After the game, based on the toxicity on here, this was not the case.


Yes we all expected to get well beaten but to set the team up so negatively in the first half was brutal, a semi final you have nothing to lose, stick on 2 strikers and go for it. It was just another nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned.

[B.H.F.C]

We were Having a go yesterday and left a 5 v 3 situation for their last goal. I dread to think what the score might have been after 90 mins of that.

We had a go when it was too late. You can have a go without leaving massive gaps like that. Our ‘conservative’ approach hardly works given we have a complete inability to defend.

Having a go doesn’t mean you have to recklessly throw bodies forward. But passing the ball forward generally helps. Supporting the striker. Not playing a central midfielder who can’t run in a wide position.

[Carheenlea]

It's plain and clear he's being judged by our league position and results against other teams. Where has the op been??

The point I was trying to make, maybe clumsily in the opening post was that for me the alarm bells started ringing after Heckingbottom’s first game against the Old Firm at Easter Road when we were far too negative against Celtic and didn’t lay a glove on them, and this was after his excellent start to his tenure.

The opinion of many was of the “free hit” mentality against them - just a year or so after going to Glasgow and also at Easter Road and having a real go at them with lots of positive results to look back on. I want a manager who doesn’t fear the Old Firm, and who can ignore the financial gulf excuses and set up a team to give them plenty to think about on a one off game basis ((which Stubbs and Lennon did and Mowbray a few years earlier)

Beating the weaker teams in the league is the least of the expectations and for that he has failed. Competing against the Old Firm should also be demanded rather than damage limitation, and I hope a new manager will do something to restore that. I’ve had many Old Firms note how weak we have be become against them in such a quick period of time.

[IngolstadtHarry]

The point I was trying to make, maybe clumsily in the opening post was that for me the alarm bells started ringing after Heckingbottom’s first game against the Old Firm at Easter Road when we were far too negative against Celtic and didn’t lay a glove on them, and this was after his excellent start to his tenure.

The opinion of many was of the “free hit” mentality against them - just a year or so after going to Glasgow and also at Easter Road and having a real go at them with lots of positive results to look back on. I want a manager who doesn’t fear the Old Firm, and who can ignore the financial gulf excuses and set up a team to give them plenty to think about on a one off game basis ((which Stubbs and Lennon did and Mowbray a few years earlier)

Beating the weaker teams in the league is the least of the expectations and for that he has failed. Competing against the Old Firm should also be demanded rather than damage limitation, and I hope a new manager will do something to restore that. I’ve had many Old Firms note how weak we have be become against them in such a quick period of time.

And that's what we had until last season but, for many people on here, it was apparently necessary to jettison a manger who refused to accept Hibs' station in life and got angry at those who wouldn't match his ambitions.
Unless something completely unexpected occurs at the club, we are now destined for a run of mediocre managers, each of whom will be turfed out after half a season for failing to reach the standard of mediocrity which we desire.

[The 90+2]

I never even considered the old firm as part of his judgement. Last season's final home game against Kilmarnock was the first indication where things were going. Its gotten worse since, I even complained - on this very board - that I thought we did our transfer business far too early (contradicting my previous years complaints!) making it feel cheap instead of thoughtful. From there, we had the LC 'warm ups' FFS! And for me, it went down hill rapidly.


I agree with all of that apart from one thing - ****ting the bed against Celtic at home in the Scottish was an early, very early indication what was going to happen in the future.

[MrSmith]

And that's what we had until last season but, for many people on here, it was apparently necessary to jettison a manger who refused to accept Hibs' station in life and got angry at those who wouldn't match his ambitions.
Unless something completely unexpected occurs at the club, we are now destined for a run of mediocre managers, each of whom will be turfed out after half a season for failing to reach the standard of mediocrity which we desire.

I honestly don't think we did jettison Neil Lennon. I do believe that Celtic came calling and hibs constructed a way out for all concerned. Don't forget, Neil wanted that job.

He is well known in Glasgow - where I work - and many people I have spoken to re his alleged comments to Leanne have said no, that is not him and he is not in anyway anti-LGBT.

[greenlex]

We had a go when it was too late. You can have a go without leaving massive gaps like that. Our ‘conservative’ approach hardly works given we have a complete inability to defend.

Having a go doesn’t mean you have to recklessly throw bodies forward. But passing the ball forward generally helps. Supporting the striker. Not playing a central midfielder who can’t run in a wide position.
Having a go means having a go regardless of the score or period of the game. Being positive is completely different. The rest is neither here nor there.

[Keith_M]

I think people are mainly judging him on the basis of mostly pedestrian style football, 1 win from 11 league games, his poor signings and his inability to play people in their correct positions.

His style of play was obvious from the very first game this season, against Stirling Albion, and I've seen nothing in the intervening games to make me think it's going to get any better.

[greenlex]

I think people are mainly judging him on the basis of mostly pedestrian style football, 1 win from 11 league games, his poor signings and his inability to play people in their correct positions.

His style of play was obvious from the very first game, against Stirling Albion, and I've seem nothing in the intervening games to make me think it's going to get any better.
This. One striker at home against teams we should be beating there is not what anyone wants to see.

[B.H.F.C]

Having a go means having a go regardless of the score or period of the game. Being positive is completely different. The rest is neither here nor there.

Call it what you want. We were positive or had a bit of a go for a period of the second half. We didn’t set up in a way that allowed that in the first half. Again. Waiting until we were out of the game before we tried to be positive or have a go was brutal in a semi final. Not unexpected though.

[IngolstadtHarry]

I honestly don't think we did jettison Neil Lennon. I do believe that Celtic came calling and hibs constructed a way out for all concerned. Don't forget, Neil wanted that job.

He is well known in Glasgow - where I work - and many people I have spoken to re his alleged comments to Leanne have said no, that is not him and he is not in anyway anti-LGBT.

I'd agree that the alleged comments were completely fictitious - Lennon isn't a bigot. As a player, especially in N. Ireland, he was a victim of bigotry and knows what that means.
But I feel that you are being very generous to those running the club. He didn't want to leave and had that really been the case then a simple statement would have stopped the PR fiasco in its tracks.
Anyway, who are we to question what they have in store for us?
My guess is that after this trough, and a couple of more clueless managers, someone will be appointed who will maintain us mid-table, with the odd cup run, and we will tug our forelocks and be grateful.

[Pedantic_Hibee]

Yes.

[#2 Double Tap]

you should always judge against the best, it is the only way to know how far you have come or how far you have to go.

[Lago]

Rangers and Celtic have upped their game considerably this season, after Celtic having been able to coast the leagues over the last however many years. The result of the competition that Rangers are now giving Celtic is that they're both having to play exceptionally well consistently.
So far, Celtic have scored :
5 against us
4 against Aberdeen
6 against Ross County
7 against St Johnstone
5 against Motherwell

Without going through Rangers' scores as well, I know they tell a similar story.

The Glasgow sides are miles ahead of the rest now, and while you might see the odd result that bucks the trend, the overwhelming story is that they are significantly better than the rest of the league.

Hecky shouldn't be judged on yesterday, but unfortunately for him there is a whole load of other games with teams we should be doing much better against.

Maybe the fair question should be can the rest of Scottish football compete with the OF? Perhaps the time has come to encourage, aid them to move to another more competitive league. The positives would be a more competitive Scottish league rather than the perennial 2 horse race. The negatives I guess would be a drop in exposure from all areas of broadcasting & media with the accompanying drop in revenue from TV for instance, no real push to show Livy v Hamilton for instance. Over time there could also be a drop in interest from the next generation of fans as the Glasgow 2 go into competition with say Liverpool or Man Utd.
It's a hard one but for sure with every year Cetic & Rangers will pull further away as they gain more revenue from Europe etc.

[Captain Trips]

His set up vs the old firm is that old shat it system.

That cup game last season v Celtic had an alarm bell. Total pish set up against every team.

[wookie70]

Some may argue that it isn’t when you take into consideration the financial gulf between squads, but we used to be held up as an example of how to play against them, and our positive approach to games served us well and fans would go to Ibrox and Celtic Park with real expectation and would be disappointed with only a point, and there was still a huge gulf financially between the clubs.

We have slipped alarmingly quickly from being a side who went to Glasgow and caused problems to trying to keep the score respectable and hoping we don’t get embarrassed. This to me is a good example as to why Paul Heckingbottom is not the man for us.

Did we not get pumped 4-2 by Celtc the last time we played them in a semi under Lennon. I thought yesterday's game was reminiscent of both semis under Lennon. Dodgy selection, poor starts and a comeback before being beaten.

[Just_Jimmy]

I only judge if we're competitive against them. I don't even expect to win. Just compete By an large he's a coward against them.

The cup game at ER last year was enough for me. It was the most pathetic cowardly performance against the OF for many a year.

That told me what kind of manager he was and he's never really won me back.

Sent from my Pixel 3a using Tapatalk

[jacomo]

Celtic and Rangers are pumping most teams not just us


I understand the gruesome twosome have much better resources than us, and so should win more often, but I expect Hibs to put up a fight. At least make them earn their victory.

Sounds like we made it easy for Celtc yesterday.

[IngolstadtHarry]

Did we not get pumped 4-2 by Celtc the last time we played them in a semi under Lennon. I thought yesterday's game was reminiscent of both semis under Lennon. Dodgy selection, poor starts and a comeback before being beaten.

Perhaps, but neither the team nor the fans went into the game expecting to get pumped. On the contrary, these games were looked forward to with relish by Lennon, by the team and, most of all, by the fans.
And no single matches which you can dig up can possibly change that.

[#2 Double Tap]

Maybe the fair question should be can the rest of Scottish football compete with the OF? Perhaps the time has come to encourage, aid them to move to anothermore competitive league. The positives would be a more competitive Scottish league rather than the perennial 2 horse race. The negatives I guess would be a drop in exposure from all areas of broadcasting & media with the accompanying drop in revenue from TV for instance, no real push to show Livy v Hamilton for instance. Over time there could also be a drop in interest from the next generation of fans as the Glasgow 2 go into competition with say Liverpool or Man Utd.
It's a hard one but for sure with every year Cetic & Rangers will pull further away as they gain more revenue from Europe etc.

If the OF left Hibs, hearts or the dons would just take up the mantle......eventually they would build up a financial advantage, due to league/cup wins and bigger crowds, just like the OF have......almost every league in the world has big dominant teams, the problem with Scotland is the other teams are, and have been, so badly run and managed that they have continually, over years and years, failed to build decent teams in order to launch any type of challenge. Using the financial advantage the OF have is just an easy excuse for accepting failure.