View Full Version : Mathie and Summer Signings
Since 2014 when ‘The Hibernian Way’ project was put in place at Hibernian FC, the manager role disappeared and the responsibility for signings passed to the Football Department under the Director of Football / Head of Recruitment model in place at other clubs. That team were tasked with identifying players who played the Hibernian Way.
The Head Coach then had a job of stating which positions needed strengthened and from the list presented, which he would take. But on the whole he wouldn’t get to fly solo and ‘build his own team’. This structure was to ensure some strategic signing policy and seemingly avoid the kind of mass turnover of journeymen that we had seen from Yogi to Butcher.
Lennon wasn’t impressed by the work of Craig and Mathie and I wouldn’t blame PH if he wasn’t also calling this approach into question. Yet for all the media and fan dissent about last summer’s signings, the Board saw fit to promote the Head of Recruitment.
Rewarding failure?
green day
31-10-2019, 06:10 AM
Since 2014 when ‘The Hibernian Way’ project was put in place at Hibernian FC, the manager role disappeared and the responsibility for signings passed to the Football Department under the Director of Football / Head of Recruitment model in place at other clubs. That team were tasked with identifying players who played the Hibernian Way.
The Head Coach then had a job of stating which positions needed strengthened and from the list presented, which he would take. But on the whole he wouldn’t get to fly solo and ‘build his own team’. This structure was to ensure some strategic signing policy and seemingly avoid the kind of mass turnover of journeymen that we had seen from Yogi to Butcher.
Lennon wasn’t impressed by the work of Craig and Mathie and I wouldn’t blame PH if he wasn’t also calling this approach into question. Yet for all the media and fan dissent about last summer’s signings, the Board saw fit to promote the Head of Recruitment.
Rewarding failure?
When the system has been used properly it has worked, imo.
Its clear Lennon didnt like it and its clear our current manager did his own thing too - I would argue that when we properly used the system we had a better, more balanced squad - and a better quality of player.
When Mathie and his team were recommending players, we had a blend of young Scottish players, plus the odd gem from abroad.
PH appears to have spent our budget on overpriced english league players leaving us with no wiggle room.
Lets not forget that you always get failures whatever the system - however I would argue that Stubbs team, and what he left to Lennon was the best blend we have had for many years.
I hope that Mathie goes back to this approach and enforces it when he gets in his new role.
PaulSmith
31-10-2019, 06:18 AM
When the system has been used properly it has worked, imo.
Its clear Lennon didnt like it and its clear our current manager did his own thing too - I would argue that when we properly used the system we had a better, more balanced squad - and a better quality of player.
When Mathie and his team were recommending players, we had a blend of young Scottish players, plus the odd gem from abroad.
PH appears to have spent our budget on overpriced english league players leaving us with no wiggle room.
Lets not forget that you always get failures whatever the system - however I would argue that Stubbs team, and what he left to Lennon was the best blend we have had for many years.
I hope that Mathie goes back to this approach and enforces it when he gets in his new role.
I’ve came full circle and firmly now in the camp that says:
Club has a style of playing the game - a framework which the coach must work within
Coach must have a pathway for young players
Club signs players that suit ethos and style of play
First Team coach accepts all of this when accepting the job
I am sick and tired of lack of continuity and going from watching brilliant expansive football to the mind numbing crap from PH
RoYO!
31-10-2019, 06:19 AM
How he managed to get promoted on the back of abject failure is beyond me but indicative of the problems at the club.
Ozyhibby
31-10-2019, 06:37 AM
When the system has been used properly it has worked, imo.
Its clear Lennon didnt like it and its clear our current manager did his own thing too - I would argue that when we properly used the system we had a better, more balanced squad - and a better quality of player.
When Mathie and his team were recommending players, we had a blend of young Scottish players, plus the odd gem from abroad.
PH appears to have spent our budget on overpriced english league players leaving us with no wiggle room.
Lets not forget that you always get failures whatever the system - however I would argue that Stubbs team, and what he left to Lennon was the best blend we have had for many years.
I hope that Mathie goes back to this approach and enforces it when he gets in his new role.
Any evidence that Lennon and Heckingbottom have brought in their own players? If this is the case and the board allow it while at the same time having an expensive recruitment dept then that calls into question Dempster job.
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green day
31-10-2019, 06:43 AM
Any evidence that Lennon and Heckingbottom have brought in their own players? If this is the case and the board allow it while at the same time having an expensive recruitment dept then that calls into question Dempster job.
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Well, Lennon brought in the likes of Efe, Kris Commons - cant see either as recruitment team spots.
Its self evident that the players brought in recently are Heckinbothams - both in the style of player and where we got them from.
Do I have a bit of paper from Hibs confirming this?
No
eta - I agree that last sentence.
Andy74
31-10-2019, 07:51 AM
I don't think anyone really knows enough about how this works to comment. It's never going to be recruitment team v manager and singings are never likely to be made by one or other in isolation.
Most of the comments on who made particular signings are based on what that individual thinks about the player or the manager or both.
Ozyhibby
31-10-2019, 08:15 AM
I don't think anyone really knows enough about how this works to comment. It's never going to be recruitment team v manager and singings are never likely to be made by one or other in isolation.
Most of the comments on who made particular signings are based on what that individual thinks about the player or the manager or both.
Agree 100%. If a signing is a bad signing it appears Heckingbottom gets the blame but if they look good it’s the recruitment dept that signed the player. There is no evidence for either. Heckingbottom needs to take responsibility for results, no doubt about that and he needs sacked but if the recruitment is poor and your job title is head of recruitment then Mathie has to take responsibility for that and certainly should not be getting a promotion.
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ScottB
31-10-2019, 08:24 AM
There’s a BBC Football podcast a couple weeks ago with Norwich’s Sporting Director. He has total control, he hires the coach, he has final say on players. Even to the point where he explained that, say they sell their left back next summer, he has a list of replacements they’d immediately target. Same with the coach, he implies he’s already had discussions with ****e’s likely replacement, in the same way he was already speaking to ****e prior to his appointment. His role is to establish continuity and ensure new pieces are ready to drop in as and when needed.
Allowing a new manager to turn up and, say, sign a bunch of players who don’t fit the established system and may even not be approved by the recruitment team would be, well, stupid. The above system is intended to provide stability at clubs who, with the best will in the world, will always have high staff turnovers, between guys who didn’t work out and guys moving on to higher levels. Our ability to replace multiple first team squad members every year is critical to our survival, and we can see this year what happens when we get it wrong. Managers are themselves short term fixtures that can either work out or not, and we ramp up our risk by allowing one to throw the budget at players who don’t fit, ruining his own tenure and effecting even the next boss.
*Edit* whit? Why is the Norwich coach name being treated as a swear word?! Come on guys...
Unseen work
31-10-2019, 08:32 AM
I find it weird that prior to the transfer window PH came out and said we will see a much more powerful and athletic hibs team.
We have the complete opposite to that.
The Modfather
31-10-2019, 08:40 AM
There’s a BBC Football podcast a couple weeks ago with Norwich’s Sporting Director. He has total control, he hires the coach, he has final say on players. Even to the point where he explained that, say they sell their left back next summer, he has a list of replacements they’d immediately target. Same with the coach, he implies he’s already had discussions with ****e’s likely replacement, in the same way he was already speaking to ****e prior to his appointment. His role is to establish continuity and ensure new pieces are ready to drop in as and when needed.
Allowing a new manager to turn up and, say, sign a bunch of players who don’t fit the established system and may even not be approved by the recruitment team would be, well, stupid. The above system is intended to provide stability at clubs who, with the best will in the world, will always have high staff turnovers, between guys who didn’t work out and guys moving on to higher levels. Our ability to replace multiple first team squad members every year is critical to our survival, and we can see this year what happens when we get it wrong. Managers are themselves short term fixtures that can either work out or not, and we ramp up our risk by allowing one to throw the budget at players who don’t fit, ruining his own tenure and effecting even the next boss.
*Edit* whit? Why is the Norwich coach name being treated as a swear word?! Come on guys...
That’s definitely the way forward. Dempster spoke about the very thing with her succession planning for all areas. We’ve either moved away from that approach, to what is not clear. Or it’s a lot harder to successfully implement than it seems.
As far as I believe, the coach will have team meeting with recruitment about targets, the scouts will have theirs and the coach will have his own list of players he wants brought in. AFAIK Heckingbottom brought in Vela, Newell, Jackson, Doidge and James, the recruitment team brought in Naismith, Maxwell, Middleton and Hallberg. I was told 2 players were flagged up by Mathie as not being worth the money being paid.
Lennon also used his contacts to bring in Efe, Flo etc, and Slivka were scouted by Mathie and his team.
It's usually a 2 way system with Stubbs using it to it's fullest.
How he managed to get promoted on the back of abject failure is beyond me but indicative of the problems at the club.
If he was failing so badly how you think he also managed to be linked with other clubs? Including the rangers?
It’s been said that the manager is also part of the team who picks which players come in, he’s given a list of players to fit the positions he wants and he chooses which one, any chance lennon and PH just didn’t pick very well? Lennons first stint at celtic showed sometimes he got it right and quite a lot he got it wrong have a look at how many strikers he signed and the cash wasted, PH left Barnsley just as a consortium including Billy Beane took over maybe he didn’t fancy the recruitment team approach I believe this was also a problem with his time at Leeds...maybe it’s actually LD and the board who have made a mistake in appointing PH in the first place as he doesn’t fit the model their trying to install
Unseen work
31-10-2019, 09:10 AM
As far as I believe, the coach will have team meeting with recruitment about targets, the scouts will have theirs and the coach will have his own list of players he wants brought in. AFAIK Heckingbottom brought in Vela, Newell, Jackson, Doidge and James, the recruitment team brought in Naismith, Maxwell, Middleton and Hallberg. I was told 2 players were flagged up by Mathie as not being worth the money being paid
Lennon also used his contacts to bring in Efe, etc Flo and Slivka were scouted by Mathie and his team.
It's usually a 2 way system with Stubbs using it to it's fullest.
My understanding is that during this meeting the head coach says the attributes and types of player that he wants. It’s from what he says that the recruitment team go and try to identify players who stand out within our budget.
Stubbs, by the looks of it bought into trusting the recruitment team but back then we never had the money to go and pay more for your championship/top end league 1 players. Don’t forget as well some of the players he signed that were maybe thought as successful might not have cut it in the premiership. The same way some of Heckingbottoms might look good if they went into a team full of confidence at the top end of the championship.
I think getting battered by Rangers in our second game has killed a lot of our players confidence and they’re struggling to come back from it.
If you look at the signings of all 3 broken down and going by assumption, the recruitment team aren’t as perfect as some make out.
Stubbs
His signings
Kennedy? Chris Dagnall?
Recruitment team
Dylan McGeouch, Scott Allan, John McGinn, Liam Henderson, Martin Boyle, David Gray, Liam Fontaine, Dominique Malonga, Fraser Fyvie, Marvin Bartley, Darren McGregor, Conrad Logan, Niklas Gunnarsson, Anthony Stokes, Mark Oxley, Keith Watson, Tomáš Černý, James Keatings, Jamie Insall, Dan Carmichael, Otso Virtanen, Jake Sinclair, Farid El Alagui, Franck Dja Djédjé, Antonio Reguero, Adam Eckersley, Kevin Thomson, Henri Anier, Islam Feruz
Lennon
His signings
Stokes, Efe Ambrose, Kris Commons, Steven Whittikar, Grant Holt, Simon Murray
Recruitment team
Florian Kamberi, Jamie Maclaren, Brandon Barker, Scott Allan, Daryl Horgan, Vykintas Slivka, Andrew Shinnie, Ofir Marciano, Ryan Gauld, Stephane Omeonga, Mark Milligan, Stevie Mallan, Thomas Agyepong, Danny Swanson, Emerson Hyndman, Chris Humphrey, Ross Laidlaw, Adam Bogdan, Cammy Bell, Brian Graham, Neal Eardley, Brian McLean, Charalampos Mavrias, Miquel Nelom, Deivydas Matulevicius, Faycal Rherras
Heckingbottom
His signings
Tom James, Adam Jackson, Josh Vela
Recruitment team
Joe Newell, Christian Doidge, Chris Maxwell, Hallberg, Jason Naismith, Glen Middleton
Before folk question some like I say it’s going by assumption and stuff that’s read on forums or PH has said. Joe Newell was someone Hibs had spoke about before PH was even with us and I’m sure I see Doidge was too. Someone on here said Maxwell was a recruitment signing and another said Vela was too off the back of Lennons recommendation.
The truth is very few know.
What I know is that is a ridiculous amount of players to be coming in over about 5 years or so, not all can be quality but we need to try keep our squads together for longer and build consistency
Coco Bryce
31-10-2019, 09:14 AM
Vela was a Lennon target.
My understanding is that during this meeting the head coach says the attributes and types of player that he wants. It’s from what he says that the recruitment team go and try to identify players who stand out within our budget.
Stubbs, by the looks of it bought into trusting the recruitment team but back then we never had the money to go and pay more for your championship/top end league 1 players. Don’t forget as well some of the players he signed that were maybe thought as successful might not have cut it in the premiership. The same way some of Heckingbottoms might look good if they went into a team full of confidence at the top end of the championship.
I think getting battered by Rangers in our second game has killed a lot of our players confidence and they’re struggling to come back from it.
If you look at the signings of all 3 broken down and going by assumption, the recruitment team aren’t as perfect as some make out.
Stubbs
His signings
Kennedy? Chris Dagnall?
Recruitment team
Dylan McGeouch, Scott Allan, John McGinn, Liam Henderson, Martin Boyle, David Gray, Liam Fontaine, Dominique Malonga, Fraser Fyvie, Marvin Bartley, Darren McGregor, Conrad Logan, Niklas Gunnarsson, Anthony Stokes, Mark Oxley, Keith Watson, Tomáš Černý, James Keatings, Jamie Insall, Dan Carmichael, Otso Virtanen, Jake Sinclair, Farid El Alagui, Franck Dja Djédjé, Antonio Reguero, Adam Eckersley, Kevin Thomson, Henri Anier, Islam Feruz
Lennon
His signings
Stokes, Efe Ambrose, Kris Commons, Steven Whittikar, Grant Holt, Simon Murray
Recruitment team
Florian Kamberi, Jamie Maclaren, Brandon Barker, Scott Allan, Daryl Horgan, Vykintas Slivka, Andrew Shinnie, Ofir Marciano, Ryan Gauld, Stephane Omeonga, Mark Milligan, Stevie Mallan, Thomas Agyepong, Danny Swanson, Emerson Hyndman, Chris Humphrey, Ross Laidlaw, Adam Bogdan, Cammy Bell, Brian Graham, Neal Eardley, Brian McLean, Charalampos Mavrias, Miquel Nelom, Deivydas Matulevicius, Faycal Rherras
Heckingbottom
His signings
Tom James, Adam Jackson, Josh Vela
Recruitment team
Joe Newell, Christian Doidge, Chris Maxwell, Hallberg, Jason Naismith, Glen Middleton
Before folk question some like I say it’s going by assumption and stuff that’s read on forums or PH has said. Joe Newell was someone Hibs had spoke about before PH was even with us and I’m sure I see Doidge was too. Someone on here said Maxwell was a recruitment signing and another said Vela was too off the back of Lennons recommendation.
The truth is very few know.
What I know is that is a ridiculous amount of players to be coming in over about 5 years or so, not all can be quality but we need to try keep our squads together for longer and build consistency
We also seem to have taken a few punts on players on lower wages,had far too many average loan signings and far too many quick fix/cover signings who seldom played.
jacomo
31-10-2019, 09:24 AM
How he managed to get promoted on the back of abject failure is beyond me but indicative of the problems at the club.
The squad is a mess, no question about it.
Not only have we signed some players who don’t look up to it but the balance is all wrong and contradicts our stated policy.
Injuries are only part of it.
DetroitHibs
31-10-2019, 09:25 AM
I really want to know who sanctioned 4 year deals for SDG and McGregor. That was the biggest waste of the budget going.
Ozyhibby
31-10-2019, 09:31 AM
My understanding is that during this meeting the head coach says the attributes and types of player that he wants. It’s from what he says that the recruitment team go and try to identify players who stand out within our budget.
Stubbs, by the looks of it bought into trusting the recruitment team but back then we never had the money to go and pay more for your championship/top end league 1 players. Don’t forget as well some of the players he signed that were maybe thought as successful might not have cut it in the premiership. The same way some of Heckingbottoms might look good if they went into a team full of confidence at the top end of the championship.
I think getting battered by Rangers in our second game has killed a lot of our players confidence and they’re struggling to come back from it.
If you look at the signings of all 3 broken down and going by assumption, the recruitment team aren’t as perfect as some make out.
Stubbs
His signings
Kennedy? Chris Dagnall?
Recruitment team
Dylan McGeouch, Scott Allan, John McGinn, Liam Henderson, Martin Boyle, David Gray, Liam Fontaine, Dominique Malonga, Fraser Fyvie, Marvin Bartley, Darren McGregor, Conrad Logan, Niklas Gunnarsson, Anthony Stokes, Mark Oxley, Keith Watson, Tomáš Černý, James Keatings, Jamie Insall, Dan Carmichael, Otso Virtanen, Jake Sinclair, Farid El Alagui, Franck Dja Djédjé, Antonio Reguero, Adam Eckersley, Kevin Thomson, Henri Anier, Islam Feruz
Lennon
His signings
Stokes, Efe Ambrose, Kris Commons, Steven Whittikar, Grant Holt, Simon Murray
Recruitment team
Florian Kamberi, Jamie Maclaren, Brandon Barker, Scott Allan, Daryl Horgan, Vykintas Slivka, Andrew Shinnie, Ofir Marciano, Ryan Gauld, Stephane Omeonga, Mark Milligan, Stevie Mallan, Thomas Agyepong, Danny Swanson, Emerson Hyndman, Chris Humphrey, Ross Laidlaw, Adam Bogdan, Cammy Bell, Brian Graham, Neal Eardley, Brian McLean, Charalampos Mavrias, Miquel Nelom, Deivydas Matulevicius, Faycal Rherras
Heckingbottom
His signings
Tom James, Adam Jackson, Josh Vela
Recruitment team
Joe Newell, Christian Doidge, Chris Maxwell, Hallberg, Jason Naismith, Glen Middleton
Before folk question some like I say it’s going by assumption and stuff that’s read on forums or PH has said. Joe Newell was someone Hibs had spoke about before PH was even with us and I’m sure I see Doidge was too. Someone on here said Maxwell was a recruitment signing and another said Vela was too off the back of Lennons recommendation.
The truth is very few know.
What I know is that is a ridiculous amount of players to be coming in over about 5 years or so, not all can be quality but we need to try keep our squads together for longer and build consistency
Marciano came from the same Israeli agent Lennon regularly uses.
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oldbutdim
31-10-2019, 09:39 AM
I really want to know who sanctioned 4 year deals for SDG and McGregor. That was the biggest waste of the budget going.
Thought it was great news for the club.
If they never play again they'll still be better value than Newell or Doidge.
Heisenberg
31-10-2019, 09:41 AM
Marciano came from the same Israeli agent Lennon regularly uses.
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Flo also came from an agent recommendation.
DetroitHibs
31-10-2019, 09:42 AM
Thought it was great news for the club.
If they never play again they'll still be better value than Newell or Doidge.
It doesn’t help the product on the pitch though. It’s two wages that could be the difference of signing other players that are younger and less injury prone.
I really want to know who sanctioned 4 year deals for SDG and McGregor. That was the biggest waste of the budget going.
They are being seen as mentors to the young players and are currently working on their badges, sometimes you have to look beyond the playing side of things.
DetroitHibs
31-10-2019, 09:52 AM
They are being seen as mentors to the young players and are currently working on their badges, sometimes you have to look beyond the playing side of things.
I think that’s where we go wrong. We focus too much on things behind the scenes and neglect the product on the pitch. This has been going on for years.
I think that’s where we go wrong. We focus too much on things behind the scenes and neglect the product on the pitch. This has been going on for years.
But why would you not have a succession plan, keeping 2 legends at the club, both going into coaching and both great role models for the younger players. It works well at many clubs, these two could be our future managers in 5-6 years time.
DetroitHibs
31-10-2019, 10:01 AM
But why would you not have a succession plan, keeping 2 legends at the club, both going into coaching and both great role models for the younger players. It works well at many clubs, these two could be our future managers in 5-6 years time.
I’d personally rather the club focus on the now, rather than the then. Those two wages could have been better spent else where. Yes they are two legends, but we can’t make the mistake of living in the past.
oldbutdim
31-10-2019, 10:30 AM
I’d personally rather the club focus on the now, rather than the then. Those two wages could have been better spent else where. Yes they are two legends, but we can’t make the mistake of living in the past.
Keeping them as mentors and role models is looking to the future rather than living in the past, so I'm delighted they are at the Club and if it meant that their wages would have been spent on another Doidge or Newell then I'm absolutely ecstatic.
Reading back through the posts, particularly the excellent research from Unseen Work, it looks like at most, 2 signings were down to Heckingbottom. Indeed it’s solely conjecture that ANY were PH spots.
Hardly surprising then why he is being granted more time by the Board to work with players identified by the club. He’s definitely to blame for the way he sets the team up and the tactics. But only the club are responsible for the recruitment.
I’m pretty sure he regrets coming to the club and trying to create a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with players that others identified. As he said in his after match interview, it shouldn’t take a rocket from the manager for the players that the club signed to show commitment and fight. Lennon said the same several times during his miserable run of 2 wins from 14.
When you have 2 successive head coaches complaining about commitment and attitude you have to wonder why these players had been discarded by other clubs or only played at a lower level.
Questions need to be asked of the recruitment team why we have a midfield with no Bartley or Milligan and are now reliant upon a set of players with the heart of a pea to protect the defence.
Ozyhibby
31-10-2019, 11:09 AM
Reading back through the posts, particularly the excellent research from Unseen Work, it looks like at most, 2 signings were down to Heckingbottom. Indeed it’s solely conjecture that ANY were PH spots.
Hardly surprising then why he is being granted more time by the Board to work with players identified by the club. He’s definitely to blame for the way he sets the team up and the tactics. But only the club are responsible for the recruitment.
I’m pretty sure he regrets coming to the club and trying to create a silk purse out of a sow’s ear. As he said in his after match interview, it shouldn’t take a rocket from the manager for the players that the club signed to show commitment and fight. Lennon said the same several times during his miserable run of 2 wins from 14.
Questions need to be asked of the recruitment team why we have a midfield with no Bartley or Milligan and are now reliant upon a set of players with the heart of a pea to protect the defence.
And not bothering to sign Shankland and instead spending £350k on the completely useless Doidge.
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Eyrie
31-10-2019, 11:23 AM
We'll never be privy to which players Heckingbottom wanted, which ones Mathie wanted and which ones both wanted.
But it's noticable that Mathie has just been promoted, which indicates to me that his recommendations on signing or not signing have been reasonably accurate so far based on how those players have performed for us or their current club this season.
CapitalGreen
31-10-2019, 11:37 AM
I really want to know who sanctioned 4 year deals for SDG and McGregor. That was the biggest waste of the budget going.
How does the length of deal impact this seasons budget? Only their salary for 19/20 impacts the budget for 19/20. Unless you’re suggesting we should have released them during the summer, their impact on this seasons budget is the same whether their contracts ended in summer 2020 or summer 2023..
Ozyhibby
31-10-2019, 11:44 AM
We'll never be privy to which players Heckingbottom wanted, which ones Mathie wanted and which ones both wanted.
But it's noticable that Mathie has just been promoted, which indicates to me that his recommendations on signing or not signing have been reasonably accurate so far based on how those players have performed for us or their current club this season.
Mathie’s promotion could just be a case of lazy management.
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The 90+2
31-10-2019, 11:48 AM
Mathie’s promotion could just be a case of lazy management.
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There must be a reason Killie and Rangers wanted him though?
Ozyhibby
31-10-2019, 01:30 PM
There must be a reason Killie and Rangers wanted him though?
Amazing how stories like that come out when someone is up for a top job.
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Hibee Mac
31-10-2019, 04:08 PM
Reading back through the posts, particularly the excellent research from Unseen Work, it looks like at most, 2 signings were down to Heckingbottom. Indeed it’s solely conjecture that ANY were PH spots.
Hardly surprising then why he is being granted more time by the Board to work with players identified by the club. He’s definitely to blame for the way he sets the team up and the tactics. But only the club are responsible for the recruitment.
I’m pretty sure he regrets coming to the club and trying to create a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with players that others identified. As he said in his after match interview, it shouldn’t take a rocket from the manager for the players that the club signed to show commitment and fight. Lennon said the same several times during his miserable run of 2 wins from 14.
When you have 2 successive head coaches complaining about commitment and attitude you have to wonder why these players had been discarded by other clubs or only played at a lower level.
Questions need to be asked of the recruitment team why we have a midfield with no Bartley or Milligan and are now reliant upon a set of players with the heart of a pea to protect the defence.
Just to add to this, if this is indeed the case and the board think the poor signings are mostly at fault, then it begs the question why have we just promoted our head of recruitment?
Heisenberg
31-10-2019, 04:18 PM
Just to add to this, if this is indeed the case and the board think the poor signings are mostly at fault, then it begs the question why have we just promoted our head of recruitment?
Because it’s quickly becoming obvious that Ron Gordon hasn’t a clue about football?
ancient hibee
31-10-2019, 04:19 PM
Reading back through the posts, particularly the excellent research from Unseen Work, it looks like at most, 2 signings were down to Heckingbottom. Indeed it’s solely conjecture that ANY were PH spots.
Hardly surprising then why he is being granted more time by the Board to work with players identified by the club. He’s definitely to blame for the way he sets the team up and the tactics. But only the club are responsible for the recruitment.
I’m pretty sure he regrets coming to the club and trying to create a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with players that others identified. As he said in his after match interview, it shouldn’t take a rocket from the manager for the players that the club signed to show commitment and fight. Lennon said the same several times during his miserable run of 2 wins from 14.
When you have 2 successive head coaches complaining about commitment and attitude you have to wonder why these players had been discarded by other clubs or only played at a lower level.
Questions need to be asked of the recruitment team why we have a midfield with no Bartley or Milligan and are now reliant upon a set of players with the heart of a pea to protect the defence.
Unseen Work has undoubtedly put in a great deal of work but as he says in his post that a lot is based on assumptions.As such it could be that all the assumptions are wrong and it is unfair to blame the coach or the recruiting team for the poor signings when nobody outside that group knows the truth.
Bearders
31-10-2019, 08:50 PM
Lennon also used his contacts to bring in Efe, Flo etc, and Slivka were scouted by Mathie and his team along with Mavrais, Nelom, Big Dave, Eardley, Maclean and Rherras
jacomo
31-10-2019, 09:11 PM
Lennon also used his contacts to bring in Efe, Flo etc, and Slivka were scouted by Mathie and his team along with Mavrais, Nelom, Big Dave, Eardley, Maclean and Rherras
I don’t think Lennon identified Flo.
He was a bit of a panic signing after Lennon fell out with Stokes and lost confidence in Simon Murray.
Unseen work
31-10-2019, 09:20 PM
Mark Fotheringham recommend Flo to Lennon.
Andy74
31-10-2019, 09:24 PM
Reading back through the posts, particularly the excellent research from Unseen Work, it looks like at most, 2 signings were down to Heckingbottom. Indeed it’s solely conjecture that ANY were PH spots.
Hardly surprising then why he is being granted more time by the Board to work with players identified by the club. He’s definitely to blame for the way he sets the team up and the tactics. But only the club are responsible for the recruitment.
I’m pretty sure he regrets coming to the club and trying to create a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with players that others identified. As he said in his after match interview, it shouldn’t take a rocket from the manager for the players that the club signed to show commitment and fight. Lennon said the same several times during his miserable run of 2 wins from 14.
When you have 2 successive head coaches complaining about commitment and attitude you have to wonder why these players had been discarded by other clubs or only played at a lower level.
Questions need to be asked of the recruitment team why we have a midfield with no Bartley or Milligan and are now reliant upon a set of players with the heart of a pea to protect the defence.
By research you mean total guesswork, don’t you?
green day
31-10-2019, 09:30 PM
So, the summary of this thread seems to be - nobody knows the full story but it seems that the players are always a combo of recruitment team and manager picks but the ratio changes depending on the manager?
What I dont understand though - when we let Marv and Milligan go, why wasnt a DM one of our first buys??
There must have been a few knocking around in the summer.............
Unseen work
01-11-2019, 12:57 AM
By research you mean total guesswork, don’t you?
I never claimed to know who signed who. I merely said what players were recruited under what managers, I think the research he is meaning is regarding me listing the players signed.
To me the majority of Lennons signings are obvious - ex Celtic.
Stubbs knee Kennedy from Everton also.
Ozyhibby
01-11-2019, 02:25 AM
So, the summary of this thread seems to be - nobody knows the full story but it seems that the players are always a combo of recruitment team and manager picks but the ratio changes depending on the manager?
What I dont understand though - when we let Marv and Milligan go, why wasnt a DM one of our first buys??
There must have been a few knocking around in the summer.............
And why weren’t we interested in Glen Kamara the summer before instead of Milligan? It would have been the obvious choice to replace McGeough and we would have a cracking young international player on our books? When you have a recruitment dept surely they should not be missing such easy decisions?
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And why weren’t we interested in Glen Kamara the summer before instead of Milligan? It would have been the obvious choice to replace McGeough and we would have a cracking young international player on our books? When you have a recruitment dept surely they should not be missing such easy decisions?
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkProbably because the rangers were sniffing around Kamara, if he was aware of their interest then we would obviously have had no chance of getting him.
NC1875
01-11-2019, 06:10 AM
Probably because the rangers were sniffing around Kamara, if he was aware of their interest then we would obviously have had no chance of getting him.
Rangers signed him in the January. If I remember rightly there was no talk from Rangers about Kamara last summer.
Danderhall Hibs
01-11-2019, 06:12 AM
And why weren’t we interested in Glen Kamara the summer before instead of Milligan? It would have been the obvious choice to replace McGeough and we would have a cracking young international player on our books? When you have a recruitment dept surely they should not be missing such easy decisions?
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Who said we weren’t interested? Maybe Lennon over rules the recruitment team on that one?
Rangers signed him in the January. If I remember rightly there was no talk from Rangers about Kamara last summer.Still doesn't rule out the possibility they could have been keeping tabs on him though, perhaps we were, perhaps many other clubs were, perhaps we decided against moving for him. For what its worth I didn't rate him the times I saw him play for Dundee, seems to have came on a bit though with the rangers, suppose thats what happens when you are surrounded with good players
green day
01-11-2019, 06:19 AM
And why weren’t we interested in Glen Kamara the summer before instead of Milligan? It would have been the obvious choice to replace McGeough and we would have a cracking young international player on our books? When you have a recruitment dept surely they should not be missing such easy decisions?
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Probably because the rangers were sniffing around Kamara, if he was aware of their interest then we would obviously have had no chance of getting him.
Both valid points, but there must have been a strategic decision regarding us running with no Defensive Midfielders taken before the end of last season?
It was mentioned (might have been on the PM board) that Heckinbotham prefers box to box midfielders and that he sees this as a better option than an out and out DM. Seems that we put all our eggs in one basket there, but Vela didnt really fall into the B2B category either so we had to bring in Hallberg to shore that area up.
This decision seems to have been the management teams choice - this was a clear error and I think based on a lack of knowledge of the Scottish game.
Individual players can slot in and out, but if you have a system with an inbuilt failing then you end up with where we are now.
It was also mentioned elsewhere that the recruitment team flagged up at least two of Heckinbothams picks as lacking in the required quality. However we signed them anyway............
While I have no problem with the management bringing in good players (Lennon with Efe, for example) they must at least be of the right calibre for us - and the gauge of that is not what they earn in inflated English league salaries.
The Leith Dutch
01-11-2019, 06:19 AM
Since 2014 when ‘The Hibernian Way’ project was put in place at Hibernian FC, the manager role disappeared and the responsibility for signings passed to the Football Department under the Director of Football / Head of Recruitment model in place at other clubs. That team were tasked with identifying players who played the Hibernian Way.
The Head Coach then had a job of stating which positions needed strengthened and from the list presented, which he would take. But on the whole he wouldn’t get to fly solo and ‘build his own team’. This structure was to ensure some strategic signing policy and seemingly avoid the kind of mass turnover of journeymen that we had seen from Yogi to Butcher.
Lennon wasn’t impressed by the work of Craig and Mathie and I wouldn’t blame PH if he wasn’t also calling this approach into question. Yet for all the media and fan dissent about last summer’s signings, the Board saw fit to promote the Head of Recruitment.
Rewarding failure?
The depressing thing about the bit in bold is that the fail is twofold: a lot of the players we signed don't appear to be good enough and I think we've got an unbalanced pool of players.
Forza Fred
01-11-2019, 06:29 AM
Reading back through the posts, particularly the excellent research from Unseen Work, it looks like at most, 2 signings were down to Heckingbottom. Indeed it’s solely conjecture that ANY were PH spots.
Hardly surprising then why he is being granted more time by the Board to work with players identified by the club. He’s definitely to blame for the way he sets the team up and the tactics. But only the club are responsible for the recruitment.
I’m pretty sure he regrets coming to the club and trying to create a silk purse out of a sow’s ear with players that others identified. As he said in his after match interview, it shouldn’t take a rocket from the manager for the players that the club signed to show commitment and fight. Lennon said the same several times during his miserable run of 2 wins from 14.
When you have 2 successive head coaches complaining about commitment and attitude you have to wonder why these players had been discarded by other clubs or only played at a lower level.
Questions need to be asked of the recruitment team why we have a midfield with no Bartley or Milligan and are now reliant upon a set of players with the heart of a pea to protect the defence.
We can argue debatet which players Hecky was responsible for bringing to the club, but the decision to punt Milligan was definitely Hecky's.
theonlywayisup
01-11-2019, 06:50 AM
I was talking to a Dundee United fan yesterday about their record £3.7m loss. Without being in the know, he stated it was partly because they brought in so many new players in the past year and had a big change behind the scenes. The £3.7m figure has been inflated by a 39% wage increase of £1.13m.
For all those who state "get rid" of the current duds, that won't be achieved without a similar big hit on the wage bill. Given that most of them were signed on 3 year contracts, we're either stuck with them for another two years plus or we enter the situation where we have to pay off some of their contract. Or, we've a "relegation release clause" that can be triggered.
Whilst I'm sure the huge majority, myself included, want Hecky away from my club, we need to be mindful that we need to recruit his replacement carefully. The new coach will not have a big recruitment budget. We can't take a risk in getting in Hecky Mark II. We need an experienced manager who can get the best out of the current players. I really do believe that the club are currently looking for Hecky's replacement and once identified the change will happen quickly.
WhileTheChief..
01-11-2019, 08:21 AM
We won't be stuck with these players.
New manager comes in and tells them they won't play much, look for a new club.
Their agents get them a move back down south. Doesn't need to cost us a penny!
CraigHibee
01-11-2019, 08:33 AM
I find it weird that prior to the transfer window PH came out and said we will see a much more powerful and athletic hibs team.
We have the complete opposite to that.
He is better at reverse psychology than being a football manager
CraigHibee
01-11-2019, 08:36 AM
For all those who state "get rid" of the current duds, that won't be achieved without a similar big hit on the wage bill. Given that most of them were signed on 3 year contracts, we're either stuck with them for another two years plus or we enter the situation where we have to pay off some of their contract. Or, we've a "relegation release clause" that can be triggered.
The players that hecky signed a few of them were wanted by other teams as well (i believe), good chance that we might be able to shift them on for a fee (fingers crossed)
Alfred E Newman
01-11-2019, 08:42 AM
Because it’s quickly becoming obvious that Ron Gordon hasn’t a clue about football?
Just as STF didn't have a clue about football. The missing link between the owner and the CE has gone, namely Rod Petrie.
tamig
01-11-2019, 08:42 AM
We won't be stuck with these players.
New manager comes in and tells them they won't play much, look for a new club.
Their agents get them a move back down south. Doesn't need to cost us a penny!
Thats not how it works though. It will cost us. Any agent worth their salt will negotiate a pay-off if a contract is ended early.
When we had the best midfield in the league 2 seasons ago, we never had a DM. Dylan was a deep playmaker, McGinn was bix2box and Allan was an attacking midfielder.
Brightside
01-11-2019, 09:24 AM
Amazing how stories like that come out when someone is up for a top job.
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He 100% was in for the job at Killie. Was offered the role.
Brightside
01-11-2019, 09:25 AM
When we had the best midfield in the league 2 seasons ago, we never had a DM. Dylan was a deep playmaker, McGinn was bix2box and Allan was an attacking midfielder.
We had SJM. Its just that simple. One player did actually make that difference. We have nothing like him now.
Smartie
01-11-2019, 09:31 AM
When we had the best midfield in the league 2 seasons ago, we never had a DM. Dylan was a deep playmaker, McGinn was bix2box and Allan was an attacking midfielder.
There’s less need for a “holding midfielder” when you have 3 CH’s.
When you play a back 4 with 2 x CH’s you have more need to protect them. Our defence has been horribly exposed at times, we look much stronger for having Hallberg in there.
Our current midfielders and strikers would be better suited to 3 at the back.
WhileTheChief..
01-11-2019, 09:41 AM
Thats not how it works though. It will cost us. Any agent worth their salt will negotiate a pay-off if a contract is ended early.
That's exactly how it works.
Why would we pay them off when another club comes along to sign them?
Unseen work
01-11-2019, 09:43 AM
We will easily manage to shift players that were recruited this summer. The majority as still a good age and have a decent cv in England.
Plenty of teams will come in for them if offered and I’m sure we’d manage to negotiate a, albeit small, transfer fee
The only one we would make a loss on would be Doidge.
B.H.F.C
01-11-2019, 09:48 AM
There’s less need for a “holding midfielder” when you have 3 CH’s.
When you play a back 4 with 2 x CH’s you have more need to protect them. Our defence has been horribly exposed at times, we look much stronger for having Hallberg in there.
Our current midfielders and strikers would be better suited to 3 at the back.
We’re stronger for having Hallberg in there but it’s not his natural position.
He’s got a bit quality IMO but it’s going to end up wasted. You can see he wants to get about the pitch. None of the clips from before he signed showed him as being a defensive midfielder.
We had SJM. Its just that simple. One player did actually make that difference. We have nothing like him now.
Exactly my point, many teams don't play with an out and out DM, it's getting that blend in your midfield 3, we just don't have that blend.
Vela shirks challenges and doesn't close down, Mallan tries but is not defensively good enough and Hallberg is better suited more box2box, we have no one who can win the ball back.
Smartie
01-11-2019, 09:56 AM
We’re stronger for having Hallberg in there but it’s not his natural position.
He’s got a bit quality IMO but it’s going to end up wasted. You can see he wants to get about the pitch. None of the clips from before he signed showed him as being a defensive midfielder.
3 at the back, an energetic midfielder to play in the middle with Allan and Hallberg, some more depth up front to compete for places with Kamberi and Doidge, Boyle RWB and Stevenson LWB and I think we've got a decent first XI.
Unseen work
01-11-2019, 09:58 AM
3 at the back, an energetic midfielder to play in the middle with Allan and Hallberg, some more depth up front to compete for places with Kamberi and Doidge, Boyle RWB and Stevenson LWB and I think we've got a decent first XI.
Looks decent enough, for me Lewis would really struggle in the left wing back role now however. Really need to start looking at a replacement for him imo
Looks decent enough, for me Lewis would really struggle in the left wing back role now however. Really need to start looking at a replacement for him imo
He actually looked decent in the 2nd half on Wednesday, due to us going for it and being more positive, he's being told to sit back most games but he put in some good runs and crosses.
Smartie
01-11-2019, 10:08 AM
Looks decent enough, for me Lewis would really struggle in the left wing back role now however. Really need to start looking at a replacement for him imo
I know what you mean, he does have limitations going forward but he's done well in that role in good teams, I think he would do again. Obviously if there was somebody better out there then I'd happily take them. We've not done very well at upgrading on good players in recent years though so I'd be happy to stick with Lewis. He had a decent game on Wednesday night imo, as mentioned above.
The Leith Dutch
01-11-2019, 11:06 AM
We had SJM. Its just that simple. One player did actually make that difference. We have nothing like him now.
Yep. McGinn - as he's proving at Villa - is the complete midfield package.
There's a bit of the Paul Scholes to him imo - does all the bits of the midfield role somewhere between well and excellently.
Kind of guy that regardless of formation or gameplan you can just stick his name in one of the CM boxes and it works.
Taking my Hibs specs off I'm glad he went down South as I can support him 100% :)
tamig
01-11-2019, 11:22 AM
That's exactly how it works.
Why would we pay them off when another club comes along to sign them?
Are you assuming clubs will be bidding for them? If its a transfer it won’t cost us. If we’re releasing early from a contract there will be a negotiated pay-off. Otherwise the player sticks around picking up his pay for nothing.
Vela and Newell were free agents, so any small fee would cover their signing on fee, Doidge was also wanted by a Championship club. I'd keep Jackson and James as they're good cover, as is Maxwell.
FilipinoHibs
01-11-2019, 11:30 AM
Vela and Newell were free agents, so any small fee would cover their signing on fee, Doidge was also wanted by a Championship club. I'd keep Jackson and James as they're good cover, as is Maxwell.
Which championship club? He had 17 games in the championship and scored one goal. Looks as if he won't beat that here.
The 90+2
01-11-2019, 11:32 AM
Which championship club? He had 17 games in the championship and scored one goal. Looks as if he won't beat that here.
Alloa?
WhileTheChief..
01-11-2019, 12:14 PM
Are you assuming clubs will be bidding for them? If its a transfer it won’t cost us. If we’re releasing early from a contract there will be a negotiated pay-off. Otherwise the player sticks around picking up his pay for nothing.
Not sure about clubs bidding but if a club wants one of these players and we're happy to let him go for free then that's all there is to it.
Which championship club? He had 17 games in the championship and scored one goal. Looks as if he won't beat that here.
There was talk before he signed that a Championship team were after him too.
Anthony Soprano
01-11-2019, 01:35 PM
Vela was a Lennon target.
Would make sense with NL having been at bolton but also seems strange as Vela's an absolute s****bag, wouldn't of thought Lennon would rate him.
CapitalGreen
01-11-2019, 01:51 PM
When we had the best midfield in the league 2 seasons ago, we never had a DM. Dylan was a deep playmaker, McGinn was bix2box and Allan was an attacking midfielder.
To think there is folk on here who think McGeough was overrated 🤯
Smartie
01-11-2019, 01:55 PM
Would make sense with NL having been at bolton but also seems strange as Vela's an absolute s****bag, wouldn't of thought Lennon would rate him.
I think he's a player who supposedly got off to a great start at Bolton as a youngster (possibly whilst Lennon was there) but for "various reasons" hasn't really developed into the player many people thought he might.
ancient hibee
01-11-2019, 03:08 PM
Not sure about clubs bidding but if a club wants one of these players and we're happy to let him go for free then that's all there is to it.
Obviously a player will only move if he’s getting more money.If the money is about the same he will want a pay off from us to come off our wage bill.
tamig
01-11-2019, 04:52 PM
Obviously a player will only move if he’s getting more money.If the money is about the same he will want a pay off from us to come off our wage bill.
Exactly. And he might even want a pay-off regardless. If a player knows we’re keen to offload the agent will be pushing hard to see what they can get.
we are hibs
01-11-2019, 07:24 PM
Would make sense with NL having been at bolton but also seems strange as Vela's an absolute s****bag, wouldn't of thought Lennon would rate him.
He signed Mallan.
Thanks for the contributions. It’s pretty clear that Heckingbottom has a job of coaching a squad recruited by the recruitment team at Hibs.
As with Lennon before him he has called the character off these personnel into question. Lennon went further by challenging the effectiveness of other aspects of the club such as the medical injury team.
However his failure, as with Lennon’s was in failing to get the best out of them. That ultimately cost NL his job (although he was clearly working his passage back to Lawwell) and as the excellent article in the Scotsman states, it will be Heckingbottom’s downfall too.
green day
02-11-2019, 08:02 AM
Thanks for the contributions. It’s pretty clear that Heckingbottom has a job of coaching a squad recruited by the recruitment team at Hibs.
As with Lennon before him he has called the character off these personnel into question. Lennon went further by challenging the effectiveness of other aspects of the club such as the medical injury team.
However his failure, as with Lennon’s was in failing to get the best out of them. That ultimately cost NL his job (although he was clearly working his passage back to Lawwell) and as the excellent article in the Scotsman states, it will be Heckingbottom’s downfall too.
You saying the same thing over and over again doesnt actually make it "pretty clear"
You saying the same thing over and over again doesnt actually make it "pretty clear"
The head coach and recruitment work hand in hand, they identify players and he will have his own list, the head coach has final say on who comes in. Occasionally the recruitment team will bring in someone when really needed like Middleton and Hallberg.
blackpoolhibs
02-11-2019, 08:09 AM
Thanks for the contributions. It’s pretty clear that Heckingbottom has a job of coaching a squad recruited by the recruitment team at Hibs.
As with Lennon before him he has called the character off these personnel into question. Lennon went further by challenging the effectiveness of other aspects of the club such as the medical injury team.
However his failure, as with Lennon’s was in failing to get the best out of them. That ultimately cost NL his job (although he was clearly working his passage back to Lawwell) and as the excellent article in the Scotsman states, it will be Heckingbottom’s downfall too.
Clear to who?
Clear to who?
Clear to LD when he called her a stupid d**e
tamig
02-11-2019, 08:12 AM
You saying the same thing over and over again doesnt actually make it "pretty clear"
Indeed. There are differing opinions yet the OP comes to the conclusion that those opinions coming down on the side of his anti-GM agenda are pretty clear 😂
blackpoolhibs
02-11-2019, 08:14 AM
Clear to LD when he called her a stupid d**e
So he said that to her so he could leave and get back to celtic?
That will be why she still keeps his picture on her desk.
So he said that to her so he could leave and get back to celtic?
Not at all, I've never believed he worked his ticket,it was a joke G.😁
blackpoolhibs
02-11-2019, 08:17 AM
Not at all, I've never believed he worked his ticket,it was a joke G.😁
:greengrin straight over my head.
:greengrin straight over my head.
Too early for you, why are you up?
blackpoolhibs
02-11-2019, 08:22 AM
Too early for you, why are you up?
Watching the rugby.
Watching the rugby.
Ah! I'm working all day, got the rugby on the radio.
green day
02-11-2019, 09:06 AM
Indeed. There are differing opinions yet the OP comes to the conclusion that those opinions coming down on the side of his anti-GM agenda are pretty clear 😂
Aye, tbh in football you always get some good, some bad and some "meh" signings. Also, you get players (Allan) who just click at one club.
While I dont think its ideal, the recruitment team are probably about 10th in my current list of "****ed up things that Hibs need to sort out".
Hope you have a good day later tam - I cant make it (un)fortunately.
tamig
02-11-2019, 11:05 AM
Aye, tbh in football you always get some good, some bad and some "meh" signings. Also, you get players (Allan) who just click at one club.
While I dont think its ideal, the recruitment team are probably about 10th in my current list of "****ed up things that Hibs need to sort out".
Hope you have a good day later tam - I cant make it (un)fortunately.
On the bus just now and won’t be long til we rock up at the bowling club. The early guard 😀🍺
hibs#1
02-11-2019, 11:26 AM
We had SJM. Its just that simple. One player did actually make that difference. We have nothing like him now.
Yes the more and more you think about McGinn what a signing he was, Dylan and Allan are no mugs either.
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