HSL Donations Poll

[offshorehibby]

I see the results of the recenr HSL poll for where donations should go.

Recent Poll
Following the result of the recent poll with our existing donators, funds received from them from 1st October 2019 will be distributed as follows:

- 65% will be passed to the Club for the Football Dept.
- 35% will be retained for future share purchases as and when they become available.

Supporters joining from 1st October onwards will see 100% of their donation going to the Club.

James Adie

[linlithgowhibbie]

I'm quite happy at that. Monies still going in for players and a reserve being built up for shares when available:thumbsup:

[Clarence]

I'm quite happy at that. Monies still going in for players and a reserve being built up for shares when available:thumbsup:

Me too. I thought the split would have been more in favour of the playing budget but I’m actually happy to see that there is a sizeable minority keen to increase the HSL fans’ share of ownership.

[wallpaperman]

Fine with that, I voted for money to go to the playing budget, but the split seems ok.

Could i ask a question about the shares that are currently in circulation?

If an owner of a club wanted to raise money, say from a particular investor, could he issue new shares which would therefore dilute all existing shares, including HSL? Would HSL be given an equal opportunity to buy some of these shares, therefore keeping the same approximate percentage?

Just wondering that if HSL do go about trying to buy small shareholdings from others, but the whole exercise could be rendered pointless by a new share issue down the line.

[Purple & Green]

I’m not happy with chucking money at the club with no accountability - I think it’s a mistake for an owner that’s been in place for 5 months to be backed like this.

I’ll be withdrawing when I’ve paid up my full membership unless things change in the interim, which I hope they will.

[Golden Bear]

I'd consider joining if there was a method of transferring financial contribuitions directly to the Club as I don't see the need for any HS involvement.

Why pay money to one group for subsequent onward transmission to the Football Club?

:dunno:

[green day]

I’m not happy with chucking money at the club with no accountability - I think it’s a mistake for an owner that’s been in place for 5 months to be backed like this.

I’ll be withdrawing when I’ve paid up my full membership unless things change in the interim, which I hope they will.


When Farmer and Petrie were in charge, some people used that as a reason not to donate to HSL

Now that they have left, you are doing exactly the same.

Its difficult to know how HSL can win when we have skewed logic like this in play...........................

[Eyrie]

I'm not happy with the email.

The orginal email about the vote was unclear about an individual's contributions would be allocated, and I had to ask several times on here before getting confirmation from Official HSL that an individual's contributions would be allocated 100% in accordance with their vote and the overall result of the vote would only be applied to those who didn't vote.

The email this morning implies that my contributions will be split 65-35 which is not what I want to happen to my money. There is nothing on my account with HSL to confirm that my money will be allocated 100% as I want, which is concerning.

[MSK]

I'm not happy with the email.

The orginal email about the vote was unclear about an individual's contributions would be allocated, and I had to ask several times on here before getting confirmation from Official HSL that an individual's contributions would be allocated 100% in accordance with their vote and the overall result of the vote would only be applied to those who didn't vote.

The email this morning implies that my contributions will be split 65-35 which is not what I want to happen to my money. There is nothing on my account with HSL to confirm that my money will be allocated 100% as I want, which is concerning.I assumed the same, I thought my vote was for 100% of my money to go to the playing budget, not 65%, if thats what the email implies

Or perhaps it is 100%

HSL - You can be reassured that if you vote 100% for either category your contributions will go to the category you vote for.

We also have some donators who have an interest in both.

We want to make sure that going forward everyone is happy and that we can direct your funds in accordance with your wishes

[Purple & Green]

I'd consider joining if there was a method of transferring financial contribuitions directly to the Club as I don't see the need for any HS involvement.

Why pay money to one group for subsequent onward transmission to the Football Club?

:dunno:

What makes Hibernian Supporters contributions different from handing £300 in to the office?


Subject to meeting Member eligibility criteria, you will acquire legal ownership status in Hibernian Supporters which has legal ownership of shares in HFC. You will receive a Membership Certificate to demonstrate proof of ownership. And of course you’ll have a voice in a democratic process.

[wallpaperman]

I thought it was explained quite clearly that they couldn’t split every single monthly donation pound for pound, however, your vote would count equally the same as everyone else’s.

it does bring an anomaly that someone paying £10 would have the same weighting as someone paying £40 I admit, but it’s maybe the best they could come up with admin wise at the time, and something they could look at changing longer term.

Purple and Green - why should we not back the new owner? As far as I am aware he has already put some money where his mouth is, for example, we are no longer paying out £500k loan repayments each year, as that was cleared. Does he not deserve some goodwill until proven otherwise?

i’ve said this before, we are so far behind our city neighbours in backing our club financially for the long term. Almost feels like we are always trying to find a reason not to back Hibs, always looking for some ulterior motive, it’s quite sad in some ways.

[jacomo]

When Farmer and Petrie were in charge, some people used that as a reason not to donate to HSL

Now that they have left, you are doing exactly the same.

Its difficult to know how HSL can win when we have skewed logic like this in play...........................


When Farmer and Petrie was in charge, there was little doubt about the strategy. You might not have agreed with it - and many didn’t - but we all knew where we stood.

Now it feels like we are in the dark as to what the plan is.

[Purple & Green]

When Farmer and Petrie were in charge, some people used that as a reason not to donate to HSL

Now that they have left, you are doing exactly the same.

Its difficult to know how HSL can win when we have skewed logic like this in play...........................

I don’t know if you’re being deliberately disingenuous but, if Tom Farmer had come up with a scheme where I donate £10 a month and it went into the Hibernian cash pot to run the club for no say and no accountability then safe to say I wouldn’t have donated a penny. Actually, I might have if it was clear and straightforward...

The issue yet to come is the 10% nominee shareholder isn’t going to sell his shareholding at cost, so the 35% kept for future shares will be revisited and in all likelihood chucked into the hibs pot too.


If we’re going to have a donation scheme, have a donation scheme. If we’re going to have fan minority ownership, have a fan minority ownership scheme. Don’t mix the two up, because it won’t work, you won’t keep everyone happy with a mish mash of the two.

And that’s not meant as criticism of the good hibs men and women trying to do the best they can with HSL - they’ve been left to pick up the pieces from the club initiated and controlled scheme.

[Purple & Green]

If you want 100% of your money to go to the club, and you’re a full paid up member, you could create a new membership, no?

[Andy74]

This is unfortunately a bit of a mess now.

I think future share purchases are just a waste of cash. I’d need to be persuaded that there’s any chunk of private shares in Hibs owned by anyone who isn’t just a fan with the same general aims as the rest of us.

So I have some shares that I bought just to be part of it, get my certificate and an AGM invite. I can now keep one, sell the rest to HSL and get my money back. Paid for by other supporters with the aim of increasing HSL percentage for no real good reason.

This isn’t really a viable mechanism that fans can get behind in any numbers.

[Purple & Green]

I think I’ve detailed above my concerns, which I suppose is primarily as using HSL as a vehicle for donating money to the club without shares being obtained in return.

I don’t think we can make comparisons with Hearts or Aberdeen. They are both very different schemes, I’m not sure if either would work for us, but it might be worth exploring what RG’s exit strategy is, and whether an agreement similar to FOH would be feasible. A premium membership scheme like Aberdna might also see more money going into the club - I’d be amazed if RG and AP aren’t currently looking at this.


I thought it was explained quite clearly that they couldn’t split every single monthly donation pound for pound, however, your vote would count equally the same as everyone else’s.

it does bring an anomaly that someone paying £10 would have the same weighting as someone paying £40 I admit, but it’s maybe the best they could come up with admin wise at the time, and something they could look at changing longer term.

Purple and Green - why should we not back the new owner? As far as I am aware he has already put some money where his mouth is, for example, we are no longer paying out £500k loan repayments each year, as that was cleared. Does he not deserve some goodwill until proven otherwise?

i’ve said this before, we are so far behind our city neighbours in backing our club financially for the long term. Almost feels like we are always trying to find a reason not to back Hibs, always looking for some ulterior motive, it’s quite sad in some ways.

[hongkonghibee]

Question for hsl:
how will HSL use its voting rights at the AGM?
will people starting payments after october 1st 2019 , have any say in how HSL votes?

[hibbybob]

I'd consider joining if there was a method of transferring financial contribuitions directly to the Club as I don't see the need for any HS involvement.

Why pay money to one group for subsequent onward transmission to the Football Club?

:dunno:

100% of contributions always went to the club and we had the added bonus of gathering shares under HSL. Unfortunately the shares are no longer available but perhaps it's still better/easier for the club to receive money in larger amounts and leave most of the admin to the unpaid volunteers that run HSL. Does it really matter how the money gets to Hibs just as long as it gets there.

By joining HSL now 100% of your contributions will go the football club.

I really don't understand why people are so negative towards HSL, especially those who haven't joined and often use the most petty of excuses not to join but put the scheme down at every opportunity.
If you want to contribute do so and if not don't!
Perhaps those who constantly criticise the scheme should consider volunteering and try to change things from within.

Well done to those that run HSL as it seems to be a thankless task. Their efforts have provided the club with a substantial amount of money whilst placing shares in "safe" hands.

EDIT - I didn't mean to direct the above solely to Golden Bear.

[jacomo]

When Farmer and Petrie were in charge, some people used that as a reason not to donate to HSL

Now that they have left, you are doing exactly the same.

Its difficult to know how HSL can win when we have skewed logic like this in play...........................


When Farmer and Petrie was in charge, there was little doubt about the strategy. You might not have agreed with it - and many didn’t - but we all knew where we stood.

Now it feels like we are in the dark as to what the plan is.

[JohnM1875]

Think that'll be me done with it. Thought when I voted my money would be going to the cause I opted for. Not split in any way.

I really don't understand how difficult it is to set it up so the money I donate goes 100% to the footballing dept. Surely it's as simple as setting up two different subscription types. One for footballing dept and one for future shares?

I get the guys running it are doing this voluntarily and have other commitments so I'm not going to be too judgemental. Just don't fancy 35% of my donation going towards something that might never happen.

[wallpaperman]

Think that'll be me done with it. Thought when I voted my money would be going to the cause I opted for. Not split in any way.

I really don't understand how difficult it is to set it up so the money I donate goes 100% to the footballing dept. Surely it's as simple as setting up two different subscription types. One for footballing dept and one for future shares?

I get the guys running it are doing this voluntarily and have other commitments so I'm not going to be too judgemental. Just don't fancy 35% of my donation going towards something that might never happen.

I really hope you reconsider and see the bigger picture.

I understand that people are seeing it the way you do, but someone who has voted for all their money going towards shares will also say, ‘wait a minute, only 35% of my money is going to shares’.

While technically they are right, it’s evened up by the opposite for people like you (and me!).

It’s not the time to bail out folks unless we’re happy falling ever financially behind our neighbours.

[weecounty hibby]

I'm amazed that enough people voted to potentially give their hard earned cash to someone ither than Hibs. I will take some time to consider my position. I 100% do not work hard to give my cash to someone I don't know, probably never heard of and if they really are taking cash for their Hibs shares, then someone who I probably wouldn't be too happy to talk to. They could we'll make a profit. I want all of my money to go directly to Hibs not people profiteering

[JohnM1875]

I really hope you reconsider and see the bigger picture.

I understand that people are seeing it the way you do, but someone who has voted for all their money going towards shares will also say, ‘wait a minute, only 35% of my money is going to shares’.

While technically they are right, it’s evened up by the opposite for people like you (and me!).

It’s not the time to bail out folks unless we’re happy falling ever financially behind our neighbours.

I'm not going to make any rash decisions just yet.

But that's kinda my point. Surely there doesn't have to be any one questioning where a percentage of their donation is going? Just set it up as two different subscription options. Then 100% of everyone's money goes exactly where they want it to.

Like I said I have no experience in setting things like this up. So have no idea of the difficulties involved. But it sounds like an easy option.

[Gloucester Hibs]

I'm amazed that enough people voted to potentially give their hard earned cash to someone ither than Hibs. I will take some time to consider my position. I 100% do not work hard to give my cash to someone I don't know, probably never heard of and if they really are taking cash for their Hibs shares, then someone who I probably wouldn't be too happy to talk to. They could we'll make a profit. I want all of my money to go directly to Hibs not people profiteering

Because they have a preference for safeguarding the long term future of our club rather then blindly lobbing money (with no accountability) to the club which could then be siphoned off into infrastructure projects?

Not having a go BTW - donating to either option is better than not donating at all IMO, just giving the alternative viewpoint.

[MacGruber]

It sounds fine to me. Maybe misunderstood by some.... or me!

People saying I voted 100% for club so not happy their contribution is being split - I don't think it is split. The same with voting for shares.

If you voted 100% either way surely that is what happens. Is that not what they have said this morning.

For example

Hibby 1 - £100 contribution - 100% shares
Hibby 2 - £1000 contributon - 100% club
Hibby 3 - £2000 contribution - 50% each

Pot to HSL = £3100.
Made up of £ 1100 shares, £2000 club.

So HSL say the contributions are split:-
35% shares and 65% club.

So... on this basis, HSL say the split for contibutions is 35% and 65% but Hibbies 1,2 & 3 still pay the way they voted.

They don't understand that though so bump gums....

Or have I got it wrong? ... If so, is my way better lol

[OfficialHSL]

It sounds fine to me. Maybe misunderstood by some.... or me!

People saying I voted 100% for club so not happy their contribution is being split - I don't think it is split. The same with voting for shares.

If you voted 100% either way surely that is what happens. Is that not what they have said this morning.

For example

Hibby 1 - £100 contribution - 100% shares
Hibby 2 - £1000 contributon - 100% club
Hibby 3 - £2000 contribution - 50% each

Pot to HSL = £3100.
Made up of £ 1100 shares, £2000 club.

So HSL say the contributions are split:-
35% shares and 65% club.

So... on this basis, HSL say the split for contibutions is 35% and 65% but Hibbies 1,2 & 3 still pay the way they voted.

They don't understand that though so bump gums....

Or have I got it wrong? ... If so, is my way better lol
You have it right.

Hibernian Supporters

[wallpaperman]

You have it right.

Hibernian Supporters

Excellent, so HSL have categorically confirmed that 100% of each person’s donation goes to what they want.

I wasn’t sure, but now confirmed so that can be put to bed, can’t it?

[Pagan Hibernia]

Think that'll be me done with it. Thought when I voted my money would be going to the cause I opted for. Not split in any way.

I really don't understand how difficult it is to set it up so the money I donate goes 100% to the footballing dept. Surely it's as simple as setting up two different subscription types. One for footballing dept and one for future shares?

I get the guys running it are doing this voluntarily and have other commitments so I'm not going to be too judgemental. Just don't fancy 35% of my donation going towards something that might never happen.

i really don’t see the issue. If you voted for your money to go solely to the playing budget then you’re monthly contribution will be part of the 65% that goes to that

[JohnM1875]

So, let me get this straight. The 65% - 35% split is the outcome of the poll total.

Meaning of all members polled 65% of the people want their money going to the footballing dept and all of their contribution will go towards that.

The other 35% want their donation going towards future shares and all of their donations will go to that.

If so, that's good stuff.

[Eric]

:agree:
It sounds fine to me. Maybe misunderstood by some.... or me!

People saying I voted 100% for club so not happy their contribution is being split - I don't think it is split. The same with voting for shares.

If you voted 100% either way surely that is what happens. Is that not what they have said this morning.

For example

Hibby 1 - £100 contribution - 100% shares
Hibby 2 - £1000 contributon - 100% club
Hibby 3 - £2000 contribution - 50% each

Pot to HSL = £3100.
Made up of £ 1100 shares, £2000 club.

So HSL say the contributions are split:-
35% shares and 65% club.

So... on this basis, HSL say the split for contibutions is 35% and 65% but Hibbies 1,2 & 3 still pay the way they voted.

They don't understand that though so bump gums....

Or have I got it wrong? ... If so, is my way better lol

Also the contribution from Hibby 4 - who didn't vote - will be split 35/65 in accordance with the final outcome of the vote. :agree:

[hibbybob]

OfficialHSL - could you please clear some space in your mailbox. Thx.

[May21/05/16]

Its straightforward for me I'm a member and I continue to contribute my monthly donations as I think it's a positive
However if people think it's not positive then dont become a member but I just wish people would not just keep having a pop all the time at the concept I know one of people that runs it and I trust him to do the right thing and he does it as a volunteer

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

[1875STEVE]

Are people not misunderstanding here??? or maybe I am??

If you voted 100% of your cash goes to club, thats what happens.

HSl (i think) are saying OVERALL that means 65% of ALL monies taken are going to the club, the other 35% set aside to buy shares.

[BT58]

I was on vaction at time of vote. I got email about it but didnt have my membship number with me to vote. I want all my cash to go to club, if there is a split then i will have to think seriously about wether i want to continue. Perhaps i never really took it in properly when i first started contributing, but i thought all cash was for club to buy new players not shares
B

[wallpaperman]

I was on vaction at time of vote. I got email about it but didnt have my membship number with me to vote. I want all my cash to go to club, if there is a split then i will have to think seriously about wether i want to continue. Perhaps i never really took it in properly when i first started contributing, but i thought all cash was for club to buy new players not shares
B

My god, people can find every excuse to have a go.

You were on holiday (the whole period the vote was open?), but that’s HSL’s fault, of course.

If you had access to your phone and email you could easily have accessed your account with a few minutes effort.

[tamig]

My god, people can find every excuse to have a go.

You were on holiday (the whole period the vote was open?), but that’s HSL’s fault, of course.

If you had access to your phone and email you could easily have accessed your account with a few minutes effort.
Exactly. Rocket science its not.

[BT58]

My god, people can find every excuse to have a go.

You were on holiday (the whole period the vote was open?), but that’s HSL’s fault, of course.

If you had access to your phone and email you could easily have accessed your account with a few minutes effort.

Calm down matey. Im no techy wizard. In fact im a dunce. But i never said it was HSLs fault, but its my cash, and ive donated fir a good few years and will reconsider my donations
B

[wallpaperman]

Calm down matey. Im no techy wizard. In fact im a dunce. But i never said it was HSLs fault, but its my cash, and ive donated fir a good few years and will reconsider my donations
B

I’m extremely mellow.

[BT58]

Exactly. Rocket science its not.

Well u could only vote if u inputed your membership number. I did say i didnt have it. Is tgat all right by you ??
B

[Rocky]

Are people not misunderstanding here??? or maybe I am??

If you voted 100% of your cash goes to club, thats what happens.

HSl (i think) are saying OVERALL that means 65% of ALL monies taken are going to the club, the other 35% set aside to buy shares.

Yes, you're misunderstanding (not without good reason to be fair). HSL's position is that the outcome is roughly the same either way though.

[penihibs]

OfficialHSL - could you please clear some space in your mailbox. Thx.

Can anybody explain why they don't reply to members who have been paying monthly for a while and send you email to pay the wrong amount to reach your goal for full membership.
Yet when you pay what you need to, they take 3 times what's due! and say they will sort this out yet do nothing.
I'm lucky I'm in position to take this hit imagine if you weren't charges all round from bank .
Get your house in order maybe this is reason why it's not been more successful.
Please reimburse me £110.00 you requested from my bank or I'm out..

[WestStandMoaner]

Think that'll be me done with it. Thought when I voted my money would be going to the cause I opted for. Not split in any way.

I really don't understand how difficult it is to set it up so the money I donate goes 100% to the footballing dept. Surely it's as simple as setting up two different subscription types. One for footballing dept and one for future shares?

I get the guys running it are doing this voluntarily and have other commitments so I'm not going to be too judgemental. Just don't fancy 35% of my donation going towards something that might never happen.

Me too, I'm not done because of the split although I do question the 35 % for future shares that may or may not come available. My problem is I'm putting money into the club and the present owner is like the invisible man. I won't make a knee jerk reaction to his silence but I will not continue with my contribution past the end of November if the silence from the club stays the same. I think he is taking stock and I am prepared to give him time but he must keep the fans onside and complete silence is not the way.

[LeithMike]

This is unfortunately a bit of a mess now.

I think future share purchases are just a waste of cash. I’d need to be persuaded that there’s any chunk of private shares in Hibs owned by anyone who isn’t just a fan with the same general aims as the rest of us.

So I have some shares that I bought just to be part of it, get my certificate and an AGM invite. I can now keep one, sell the rest to HSL and get my money back. Paid for by other supporters with the aim of increasing HSL percentage for no real good reason.

This isn’t really a viable mechanism that fans can get behind in any numbers.Agree with this Andy. I don't think this is the fault of those who have worked tirelessly to make HSL succeed but it really is in limbo now.

1. Not sure of the exact shareholding currently but am I right that its below the level that was required to appoint a director? It's also below the level necessary to offer proper minority shareholder protections.

2. Now that HSL possesses those shares then it needs to stay in existence to manage that shareholding but I don't see what a future purpose is unless it can get the shareholding.

3. I don't think giving money to the club for the football budget for nothing in return is right. Fans would be as well buying strips etc. The AberDNA is definitely a better model and this is something for the club to initiate.

4. Rather than buy shares from existing shareholders, what about seeking those shareholders to assign the voting rights on their shares to HSL so HSL can at least try to control 25% of voting rights?

5. I know the uptake from the fans has generally been poor but the sale of the club without protecting the HSL scheme had been really ill-considered. Why were those shares not ring-fenced for HSL? This was all kept very quiet when the sale to Ron Gordon was announced and has never been answered.

6. I joined HSL to help get a significant part of the club in community ownership as I really don't think football clubs should be at the mercy of wealthy individuals. It was a bonus that this money was going to the football side.

7. In my view HSL have been treated very poorly and I recognise the genuine efforts being made to give it a purpose going forward. It's not something, however, I can continue to invest in without some significant revamp that would restore it's original purpose.







Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[Eyrie]

It sounds fine to me. Maybe misunderstood by some.... or me!

People saying I voted 100% for club so not happy their contribution is being split - I don't think it is split. The same with voting for shares.

If you voted 100% either way surely that is what happens. Is that not what they have said this morning.

For example

Hibby 1 - £100 contribution - 100% shares
Hibby 2 - £1000 contributon - 100% club
Hibby 3 - £2000 contribution - 50% each

Pot to HSL = £3100.
Made up of £ 1100 shares, £2000 club.

So HSL say the contributions are split:-
35% shares and 65% club.

So... on this basis, HSL say the split for contibutions is 35% and 65% but Hibbies 1,2 & 3 still pay the way they voted.

They don't understand that though so bump gums....

Or have I got it wrong? ... If so, is my way better lol

Thanks for the explanation which Official HSL have confirmed is correct.

The above is administratively simple, which is understandable for a volunteer run organisation, but it only reflects the split at the time of the vote. That isn't what we were told we were voting on, as it means that every individual's contributions are being split and not allocated 100% in accordance with their vote. I realise that regular votes will be taken which will revise the proportions but that still doesn't address the issue.

I voted for all of my contribution to go to the club and none to be used for shares, making me Hibby 2. If I get a promotion and double my contribution then only £650 will go to the club and £350 will be held to buy shares - not what I want. Conversely if I retire and have to stop my contributions, then the football side only loses £650 and the share purchase pot loses out by £350 - again not what I was told would happen.

[tamig]

Well u could only vote if u inputed your membership number. I did say i didnt have it. Is tgat all right by you ??
B

Easy to find it. In the same place where you had to vote. Do you still use an old Nokia? If so, I apologise.

[Gloucester Hibs]

Agree with this Andy. I don't think this is the fault of those who have worked tirelessly to make HSL succeed but it really is in limbo now.

1. Not sure of the exact shareholding currently but am I right that its below the level that was required to appoint a director? It's also below the level necessary to offer proper minority shareholder protections.

2. Now that HSL possesses those shares then it needs to stay in existence to manage that shareholding but I don't see what a future purpose is unless it can get the shareholding.

3. I don't think giving money to the club for the football budget for nothing in return is right. Fans would be as well buying strips etc. The AberDNA is definitely a better model and this is something for the club to initiate.

4. Rather than buy shares from existing shareholders, what about seeking those shareholders to assign the voting rights on their shares to HSL so HSL can at least try to control 25% of voting rights?

5. I know the uptake from the fans has generally been poor but the sale of the club without protecting the HSL scheme had been really ill-considered. Why were those shares not ring-fenced for HSL? This was all kept very quiet when the sale to Ron Gordon was announced and has never been answered.

6. I joined HSL to help get a significant part of the club in community ownership as I really don't think football clubs should be at the mercy of wealthy individuals. It was a bonus that this money was going to the football side.

7. In my view HSL have been treated very poorly and I recognise the genuine efforts being made to give it a purpose going forward. It's not something, however, I can continue to invest in without some significant revamp that would restore it's original purpose.







Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

Great post and summarises my own thoughts and concerns on HSL too, other than I’ll probably be continuing with donations (albeit reduced ones).

[3pm]

Still backing HSL, 100%.

[penihibs]

Still backing HSL, 100%.

Good on you.
Maybe you've not had any problems like some of us.

[BT58]

Easy to find it. In the same place where you had to vote. Do you still use an old Nokia? If so, I apologise.

No need to apologise as ive stated, im an auld guy who is not pc literate. So it wasnt easy for me to find
B

[tamig]

No need to apologise as ive stated, im an auld guy who is not pc literate. So it wasnt easy for me to find
B

Ok no probs.

[Rocky]

Thanks for the explanation which Official HSL have confirmed is correct.

The above is administratively simple, which is understandable for a volunteer run organisation, but it only reflects the split at the time of the vote. That isn't what we were told we were voting on, as it means that every individual's contributions are being split and not allocated 100% in accordance with their vote. I realise that regular votes will be taken which will revise the proportions but that still doesn't address the issue.

I voted for all of my contribution to go to the club and none to be used for shares, making me Hibby 2. If I get a promotion and double my contribution then only £650 will go to the club and £350 will be held to buy shares - not what I want. Conversely if I retire and have to stop my contributions, then the football side only loses £650 and the share purchase pot loses out by £350 - again not what I was told would happen.

Where did they confirm that's correct as I don't think it is. It's one member one vote as I understand it so the split in that example would be £1550 each. I do accept there have been plenty of contradictory posts from HSL though so who knows.

[Rocky]

Where did they confirm that's correct as I don't think it is. It's one member one vote as I understand it so the split in that example would be £1550 each. I do accept there have been plenty of contradictory posts from HSL though so who knows.

I see the post where they confirmed it now but I still reckon it's not right if I'm honest.

[Eyrie]

I see the post where they confirmed it now but I still reckon it's not right if I'm honest.

I agree it's not right, but Official HSL have confirmed that is what will happen.

[Rocky]

I agree it's not right, but Official HSL have confirmed that is what will happen.

I know but they've confirmed both ways several times!

It would be really helpful if HSL could confirm whether it was:

a) one member one vote, votes totalled and percentage split calculated or
b) some kind of calculation where votes were weighted according to monthly donation level / Francks held / whatever

I reckon it's a, MacGruber's analysis is based on some version of b.

There was definitely an HSL post on one of the threads that said it's a) but that a) gives the same outcome as b). Clearly it doesn't in the exaggerated numbers posted in the example we're discussing but in reality it quite possibly does.

[MSK]

I know but they've confirmed both ways several times!

It would be really helpful if HSL could confirm whether it was:

a) one member one vote, votes totalled and percentage split calculated or
b) some kind of calculation where votes were weighted according to monthly donation level / Francks held / whatever

I reckon it's a, MacGruber's analysis is based on some version of b.

There was definitely an HSL post on one of the threads that said it's a) but that a) gives the same outcome as b). Clearly it doesn't in the exaggerated numbers posted in the example we're discussing but in reality it quite possibly does.I initially didn't understand the recent email but I edited my post earlier in the thread after reading a previous email, how I understand it is for example, if 65% donate £20,000 per month that goes to the playing budget (100% of my donation) & if 35% donate £6000 per month for the purchase of shares should they become available.

For some reason I read it as 65% of my donation goes to the playing budget & 35% of it goes towards the purchase of shares, which I would have been against.

[Rocky]

I initially didn't understand the recent email but I edited my post earlier in the thread after reading a previous email, how I understand it is for example, if 65% donate £20,000 per month that goes to the playing budget (100% of my donation) & if 35% donate £6000 per month for the purchase of shares should they become available.

For some reason I read it as 65% of my donation goes to the playing budget & 35% of it goes towards the purchase of shares, which I would have been against.

I really don't think that's right but perhaps if HSL can categorically reply to confirm whether it's a or b that would help. I think they're probably right and it makes little odds either way, it's just frustrating not being able to get a straight answer.

And I don't think you're looking at it quite right. If you look at it the way you're looking at it you need to bear in mind that the converse is true too. I.e. someone who voted for shares is actually contributing 65% of their donation to the club. I do think it balances out and everyone's wishes are being more or less honoured but there's just more noise around this than there needs to be due to the lack of clarity.

[jacomo]

I really don't think that's right but perhaps if HSL can categorically reply to confirm whether it's a or b that would help. I think they're probably right and it makes little odds either way, it's just frustrating not being able to get a straight answer.

And I don't think you're looking at it quite right. If you look at it the way you're looking at it you need to bear in mind that the converse is true too. I.e. someone who voted for shares is actually contributing 65% of their donation to the club. I do think it balances out and everyone's wishes are being more or less honoured but there's just more noise around this than there needs to be due to the lack of clarity.


I think it probably balances out. If they’ve not weighted the results it might not be exact but I doubt it’s more than +5 / -5 from that figure. So if you want your contribution to go towards the playing budget, it probably is.

I do think HSL has been orphaned by the club though, trying to find a way forward on its own. A share fund is a bit pointless given there are no shares to buy right now.

[Purple & Green]

I really don't think that's right but perhaps if HSL can categorically reply to confirm whether it's a or b that would help. I think they're probably right and it makes little odds either way, it's just frustrating not being able to get a straight answer.

And I don't think you're looking at it quite right. If you look at it the way you're looking at it you need to bear in mind that the converse is true too. I.e. someone who voted for shares is actually contributing 65% of their donation to the club. I do think it balances out and everyone's wishes are being more or less honoured but there's just more noise around this than there needs to be due to the lack of clarity.

I don’t remember if they ever clarified if all members had a vote, or whether it was just current contributing members and part members. If 500 full members had a vote and no longer contributed it would affect the figures. To my mind, ALL MEMBERS should have been able to vote, but I think this goes back to the pig in a poke the club off loaded onto HSL.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Simpler to realise where we are. Probably not going to "regularly" get more shares, so forget it and put every penny to the playing budget, advertise it widely and get many more on board...I move.

[Beefster]

Given the constant debate about HSL every time they do something, the sooner the club sets up some type of subscription scheme, similar to Aberdeen’s, the better. Personally, I think the fact that they haven’t so far is one of the most damning failures of Dempster’s reign. Hopefully, Gordon’s on it.

[WhileTheChief..]

Must he great to have no credit card debt, be mortgage free and know that your pension is well funded.

I mean you wouldn’t be giving your cash away to highly paid footballers if you hadn’t sorted yourself out first right?

I always here the mantra “only donate if you can afford it”.

Well, unless you’ve sorted out all of the above, you can’t afford it if you’re anything like the average person in the uk.

£20 a month over 20 years could mean thousands in your future self’s pocket.

Just think about that for a moment.

[Rocky]

Given the constant debate about HSL every time they do something, the sooner the club sets up some type of subscription scheme, similar to Aberdeen’s, the better. Personally, I think the fact that they haven’t so far is one of the most damning failures of Dempster’s reign. Hopefully, Gordon’s on it.

A scheme like Aberdeen's attracts VAT so there's one very good reason not to go down that track. HSL is a very straightforward concept that should make it easy to just lob a few extra quid at the club for those who wish to. And it's succeeded in that aim. Obviously Ron's takeover has changed the game quite a lot but I think the approach HSL have taken is a sensible one and means that supporters can have a say in where their contribution goes.

It's just unfortunate that the lack of clarity in some of the communication has led to endless debate on the minutiae of the setup but we can't expect a fully professional marketing and comms operation when it's being run by volunteers. I'm grateful to those that give up their own time to run it on our behalf.

[MSK]

Must he great to have no credit card debt, be mortgage free and know that your pension is well funded.

I mean you wouldn’t be giving your cash away to highly paid footballers if you hadn’t sorted yourself out first right?

I always here the mantra “only donate if you can afford it”.

Well, unless you’ve sorted out all of the above, you can’t afford it if you’re anything like the average person in the uk.

£20 a month over 20 years could mean thousands in your future self’s pocket.

Just think about that for a moment.Aye yer right, **** the season ticket for next season, no way am I going to help contribute to the already highly paid footballers, I will just ***** it on smokes, beers and fish suppers instead

[hibbybob]

Must he great to have no credit card debt, be mortgage free and know that your pension is well funded.

I mean you wouldn’t be giving your cash away to highly paid footballers if you hadn’t sorted yourself out first right?

I always here the mantra “only donate if you can afford it”.

Well, unless you’ve sorted out all of the above, you can’t afford it if you’re anything like the average person in the uk.

£20 a month over 20 years could mean thousands in your future self’s pocket.

Just think about that for a moment.

If a good number of people who can afford it make a small contribution (£20 equates to about a pint of been each week) we might see more days like we enjoyed in May 2016.

Just think about that for a moment!

HSL isn't perfect but some of us are happy to contribute. Why knock it at every opportunity?

[jacomo]

Must he great to have no credit card debt, be mortgage free and know that your pension is well funded.

I mean you wouldn’t be giving your cash away to highly paid footballers if you hadn’t sorted yourself out first right?

I always here the mantra “only donate if you can afford it”.

Well, unless you’ve sorted out all of the above, you can’t afford it if you’re anything like the average person in the uk.

£20 a month over 20 years could mean thousands in your future self’s pocket.

Just think about that for a moment.


This is an argument for never doing anything ever.

Why are you buying tickets for football matches? Or anything you enjoy? It only eats into your pension...

[Eric]

I don’t remember if they ever clarified if all members had a vote, or whether it was just current contributing members and part members. If 500 full members had a vote and no longer contributed it would affect the figures. To my mind, ALL MEMBERS should have been able to vote, but I think this goes back to the pig in a poke the club off loaded onto HSL.

When it was announced that NEW shares were no longer available for HSL to purchase, existing DONATORS were given the opportunity to let HSL know whether the wanted THEIR donation to go, A to buy existing shares as and when any became available, B to the football management of the Club or, C divided 50/50 between A and B. The donation from any donor who didn't respond would be split between A and B in accordance with the final outcome of the responses which turned out to be 35% to A and 65% to B.

The donation from NEW donors from 1 Oct 19 will go 100% to the football management of the Club.

A lot of the recent confusion is due to the words "Vote" and "Poll" being used in announcements and posts when neither are appropriate on this occasion. My first para explains what it was but I can't think of a single word which would specify it unambiguously.

Looking forward to HSL's response!

[WhileTheChief..]

If a good number of people who can afford it make a small contribution (£20 equates to about a pint of been each week) we might see more days like we enjoyed in May 2016.

Just think about that for a moment!

HSL isn't perfect but some of us are happy to contribute. Why knock it at every opportunity?

You think giving more money to PH to spend will see more days like May 2016?

I admire your optimism!

[WhileTheChief..]

This is an argument for never doing anything ever.

Why are you buying tickets for football matches? Or anything you enjoy? It only eats into your pension...

Not really. You’re taking it to extremes.

Someone earning, say £20k a year giving their cash to someone earning £200k a year?

You crack on but don’t ever complain about austerity or your standard of living!

[MSK]

Not really. You’re taking it to extremes.

Someone earning, say £20k a year giving their cash to someone earning £200k a year?

You crack on but don’t ever complain about austerity or your standard of living!Its not taking it to extremes, how much per year do you spend on hibs ? If you are a season ticket holder or a walk up fan then you are doing exactly the same as folk who contribute to HSL, Im not on a great wage but I contribute because I want to and I can afford to. No-one is forcing me to contribute and Im certainly not gonna piss my pants comparing my contributions to any loss of income.

[hibbybob]

You think giving more money to PH to spend will see more days like May 2016?

I admire your optimism!

Perhaps not - who knows - but at least I'm contributing to something I care about rather than discouraging others from doing so.

If your grievance is against PH and not HSL you're on the wrong thread.

And just for the record HSL pre-dates PH and 21/5/16 so probably did contribute to that wonderful day - even if just playing a small part in getting McGinn, McGeoch or Stokes to the club!

[Bostonhibby]

Me too, I'm not done because of the split although I do question the 35 % for future shares that may or may not come available. My problem is I'm putting money into the club and the present owner is like the invisible man. I won't make a knee jerk reaction to his silence but I will not continue with my contribution past the end of November if the silence from the club stays the same. I think he is taking stock and I am prepared to give him time but he must keep the fans onside and complete silence is not the way.Pretty close to where I am at the moment, I worked out that Ron killed off what I wanted from HSL for the moment and thought I'd take stock to see if what comes next makes getting a protective share in the club via HSL a possibility again. If it doesn't I'll be interested in any alternative

Hoping the AGM might at least give us a clue, especially around what ponying up might amount to but i won't be interested in any more infrastructure or property investments which need to be a distant goal to the on the pitch offering for the foreseeable future.

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[WhileTheChief..]

Not on a great wage yet giving your cash away and I’m the daftie?!

Cool.

[Allant1981]

Not really. You’re taking it to extremes.

Someone earning, say £20k a year giving their cash to someone earning £200k a year?

You crack on but don’t ever complain about austerity or your standard of living!

Do you spend no money following hibs?

[WhileTheChief..]

This season so far I’ve bought 2 STs and 2 hospitality deals so probably around grand.

[MSK]

Not on a great wage yet giving your cash away and I’m the daftie?!

Cool.Im mortgage free, Ive no debt, Ive next to no outlay, I dont drive, I hardly drink, my Daughters have left home so arent leeching from me, every penny I earn is mines, so this ****ing dafty can do whatever he wants with his money, and if thats contributing to HSL then so be it, now why dont you toddle off and start a miserable anti HSL thread so you can grab yourself some much needed attention and leave us daftys alone 👍

[Allant1981]

This season so far I’ve bought 2 STs and 2 hospitality deals so probably around grand.

So why moan about others spending money how they want, you have done the exact same but in a different format

[MSK]

This season so far I’ve bought 2 STs and 2 hospitality deals so probably around grand.A grand !! ****ing dafty, imagine contributing to those highly paid players wages !! 😆

[WhileTheChief..]

You’re the one doing the name calling.

You’re in the fortunate position of being able to do what you want. Others aren’t so lucky.

[hongkonghibee]

I have just checked the official HSL website, and they are still claiming on the front page "to raise funds to acquire shares in Hibernian Football Club"
This has been untrue since October 1st. I find this really unacceptable for HSL not to have changed the website or taking it down until it is corrected .
Earlier on this thread i asked how HSL will deal with voting at the AGM with no reply . Anyone know? We now own 15.4% of our club, so if there is a vote on something at an AGM will we all be balloted on it first?

[MSK]

You’re the one doing the name calling.

You’re in the fortunate position of being able to do what you want. Others aren’t so lucky.Folk who contribute to HSL no matter how large or small a contribution do so because they can afford it, its that simple really so Im struggling to see your logic, other than to be an attention seeker. Ive no problems with anyone who contributes financially to hibs by whatever means, be it HSL, the club shop, or by attending matches, we (or most of us) want whats best for the club and that starts on the pitch, whether its PH at the helm or someone else Im happy to know that a portion of my cash is going on the team.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Not really. You’re taking it to extremes.

Someone earning, say £20k a year giving their cash to someone earning £200k a year?

You crack on but don’t ever complain about austerity or your standard of living!

I thought the point was to get money to the club to help them buy more of these players.
I'm skint, that's why I live abroad, its a cheaper lifestyle, but any little bit I can do to help provide success and allow us to compete with other teams at our level is worth it in my eyes.

[hongkonghibee]

Folk who contribute to HSL no matter how large or small a contribution do so because they can afford it, its that simple really so Im struggling to see your logic, other than to be an attention seeker. Ive no problems with anyone who contributes financially to hibs by whatever means, be it HSL, the club shop, or by attending matches, we (or most of us) want whats best for the club and that starts on the pitch, whether its PH at the helm or someone else Im happy to know that a portion of my cash is going on the team.

i think there were a lot of us who didnt really have the money , but felt it extremely important to help hsl to get to the 25%(?) shareholding level which could save the club from a hostile takeover. This is very different from other club expenditure like match tickets, as it could potentially be about the very existence of our club.

[Hibbyradge]

This season so far I’ve bought 2 STs and 2 hospitality deals so probably around grand.

Imagine that in 20 years!

[MSK]

i think there were a lot of us who didnt really have the money , but felt it extremely important to help hsl to get to the 25%(?) shareholding level which could save the club from a hostile takeover. This is very different from other club expenditure like match tickets, as it could potentially be about the very existence of our club.Yes but things have moved on now haven't they, so Whilethechiefs finger wagging post is needless and nothing short of attention seeking. He doesn't contribute to HSL so why be concerned in what others do with their cash ?

[tamig]

Must he great to have no credit card debt, be mortgage free and know that your pension is well funded.

I mean you wouldn’t be giving your cash away to highly paid footballers if you hadn’t sorted yourself out first right?

I always here the mantra “only donate if you can afford it”.

Well, unless you’ve sorted out all of the above, you can’t afford it if you’re anything like the average person in the uk.

£20 a month over 20 years could mean thousands in your future self’s pocket.

Just think about that for a moment.
Aye right enough. I’ve not read such guff on here for a long time.

[hongkonghibee]

Yes but things have moved on now haven't they, so Whilethechiefs finger wagging post is needless and nothing short of attention seeking. He doesn't contribute to HSL so why be concerned in what others do with their cash ?

i think though that the poorest in society often give the most percentagewise to football clubs, and this should sometimes be acknowledged. i agree not in a finger wagging way.

[Beefster]

A scheme like Aberdeen's attracts VAT so there's one very good reason not to go down that track. HSL is a very straightforward concept that should make it easy to just lob a few extra quid at the club for those who wish to. And it's succeeded in that aim. Obviously Ron's takeover has changed the game quite a lot but I think the approach HSL have taken is a sensible one and means that supporters can have a say in where their contribution goes.

It's just unfortunate that the lack of clarity in some of the communication has led to endless debate on the minutiae of the setup but we can't expect a fully professional marketing and comms operation when it's being run by volunteers. I'm grateful to those that give up their own time to run it on our behalf.

It wasn’t a criticism of HSL. It was a point about there seemingly being lots of folk who could be paying regular money to Hibs who, for whatever reason, won’t contribute via HSL. At the moment, there is no alternative.

Not sure why VAT should stop something happening. Most of the money going into Hibs attracts VAT. They don’t shut up the shop as a result.

[hongkonghibee]

It wasn’t a criticism of HSL. It was a point about there seemingly being lots of folk who could be paying regular money to Hibs who, for whatever reason, won’t contribute via HSL. At the moment, there is no alternative.

Not sure why VAT should stop something happening. Most of the money going into Hibs attracts VAT. They don’t shut up the shop as a result.
i agree with beefster. Now that new donators to hsl are no longer getting shares in hibernian football club, it would be run much more efficiently in house by the club. they could then advertise it properly on the official site, which would easily make up for the lost VAT money. and they could easily offer incentives of shop discounts etc. I would much prefer that model.
Meanwhile HSL can continue with its original aim of acquiring shares in the club as they become available.
Now is the best time to seperate these two totally different things.

[Golden Bear]

i agree with beefster. Now that new donators to hsl are no longer getting shares in hibernian football club, it would be run much more efficiently in house by the club. they could then advertise it properly on the official site, which would easily make up for the lost VAT money. and they could easily offer incentives of shop discounts etc. I would much prefer that model.
Meanwhile HSL can continue with its original aim of acquiring shares in the club as they become available.
Now is the best time to seperate these two totally different things.

I like the idea of a straight direct debit arrangement between the supporter and the Club. This would provide traceability/accountability in the knowledge that the individual donations have been transferred regularly. Perhaps its something that the Supporters Reps could look in to?

[Purple & Green]

I have a problem with new donators becoming members and a say on the shareholding when they’ve never contributed to it - their donation will just be chucked at the club.

HSL wasn’t perfect, but I think it might have helped if RG, AP or LD had explained why the new owner wanted to rip up the share transfer agreement - I think it’s reasonable for HSL to be able to explain to its members why the club still wants us to donate but the club no longer wants to give us minority ownership through shares. I don’t necessarily think that’s a worry, but the lack of an explanation is worrying. Unless I’ve missed it - which is possible. LD for example must know she sits on both boards.


When it was announced that NEW shares were no longer available for HSL to purchase, existing DONATORS were given the opportunity to let HSL know whether the wanted THEIR donation to go, A to buy existing shares as and when any became available, B to the football management of the Club or, C divided 50/50 between A and B. The donation from any donor who didn't respond would be split between A and B in accordance with the final outcome of the responses which turned out to be 35% to A and 65% to B.

The donation from NEW donors from 1 Oct 19 will go 100% to the football management of the Club.

A lot of the recent confusion is due to the words "Vote" and "Poll" being used in announcements and posts when neither are appropriate on this occasion. My first para explains what it was but I can't think of a single word which would specify it unambiguously.

Looking forward to HSL's response!

[Purple & Green]

Now that new donators to hsl are no longer getting shares in hibernian football club

They are though? Each new member donates his £225 straight to the football club, and becomes a member of HSL with a “say” on the 15% shareholding just the same as the 1500 existing members?

I agree with what I think you are saying - create a separate scheme for donating money to the club.

[hongkonghibee]

They are though? Each new member donates his £225 straight to the football club, and becomes a member of HSL with a “say” on the 15% shareholding just the same as the 1500 existing members?

I agree with what I think you are saying - create a separate scheme for donating money to the club.

HSL need to make this clear. Surely its only existing members who have a say on the voting of the 15% shareholding. As new donaters are only doing it as a donation to the club, nothing to do with shareholding any more.
Thats another reason why it needs seperating.
It would be good if someone from hsl to clarify this on here.

[CentreLine]

I’m not happy with chucking money at the club with no accountability - I think it’s a mistake for an owner that’s been in place for 5 months to be backed like this.

I’ll be withdrawing when I’ve paid up my full membership unless things change in the interim, which I hope they will.

I suspect what you meant to say was
“Thank you HSL for giving me the opportunity to have my name on a shirt to be worn by the team I love. It was an outstanding initiative but once I have done that I intend to stop my contribution and simply be a supporter in the conventional way”
But instead it came out as a dig at HSL and, by inference, at the club.
Everyone is absolutely entitled to support or be a fan of the club exactly as they please or as their financial position will allow but is it really necessary to use that as an excuses to introduce such negativity?

[Beefster]

I suspect what you meant to say was
“Thank you HSL for giving me the opportunity to have my name on a shirt to be worn by the team I love. It was an outstanding initiative but once I have done that I intend to stop my contribution and simply be a supporter in the conventional way”
But instead it came out as a dig at HSL and, by inference, at the club.
Everyone is absolutely entitled to support or be a fan of the club exactly as they please or as their financial position will allow but is it really necessary to use that as an excuses to introduce such negativity?

“Everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion but here’s exactly what you should be thinking...”

[CentreLine]

“Everyone is absolutely entitled to their opinion but here’s exactly what you should be thinking...”

Nope. I said “I suspect” what you intended to say.
That’s what I was thinking

[Purple & Green]

I suspect what you meant to say was
“Thank you HSL for giving me the opportunity to have my name on a shirt to be worn by the team I love. It was an outstanding initiative but once I have done that I intend to stop my contribution and simply be a supporter in the conventional way”
But instead it came out as a dig at HSL and, by inference, at the club.
Everyone is absolutely entitled to support or be a fan of the club exactly as they please or as their financial position will allow but is it really necessary to use that as an excuses to introduce such negativity?

You suspect wrong Sherlock because firstly, I signed up prior to the shirt initiative, and secondly because my name won't be going on the shirt as I won't be paid up on time - and I'm not going to pay up early. I will however see out my contribution to full membership.

[basehibby]

I'm not about to stop my HSL donations - however I do agree that, given the new ownership arrangements whereby HSL contributions will no longer contribute to fan ownership, the goalposts have now been moved and therefore the model on which HSL works needs to change also.

Personally I would favour some kind of membership scheme whereby the overriding purpose remains to be additional fundraising directly for the benefit of the football team - some sort of benefits could be granted which we could all then have massive arguments on here about - falling out with each other and casting aspersions on Petrie's dubious motives before realising that he's now buggered off to the SFA and has nothing to do with it.

[Just Alf]

I'm not about to stop my HSL donations - however I do agree that, given the new ownership arrangements whereby HSL contributions will no longer contribute to fan ownership, the goalposts have now been moved and therefore the model on which HSL works needs to change also.

Personally I would favour some kind of membership scheme whereby the overriding purpose remains to be additional fundraising directly for the benefit of the football team - some sort of benefits could be granted which we could all then have massive arguments on here about - falling out with each other and casting aspersions on Petrie's dubious motives before realising that he's now buggered off to the SFA and has nothing to do with it.I genuinely thought that was what the vote was for, they've also already said that there will be follow up votes so that we can change our minds as the picture develops.

At meetings it was made clear that HSL were looking to get a dialogue going with the Nominees and that any money pot for shares was to support any talks etc.

There will also be a point at which the pot of money covers what we're willing to pay for those shares, at that time I'm sure HSL would be advocating that 100% of monies collected goes to the playing side. In short, the shares/team split is only temporary anyway.

That's my take on it from reading what HSL have said on here/elsewhere and at the meetings.

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