Steve Clarke ....... bad decision?

[Jim44]

Should Clarke have stayed with Killie where he was enjoying a successful run?

[Sir David Gray]

From a bank balance point of view he's done the right thing.

[chrisski33]

No we just have crap players

[Scottie]

Yes IMO he's got as much charisma as Potter. Only going to end 1 way. Poor selections like Malgrew and Snodgrass will see him away very soon. Clark didn't learn anything from Russia's victory at Hampden earlier. :rolleyes:

[Hibeesmad]

Killie were beginning to go through the transition period of losing their best players- Boyd retiring, Jones away, Mulumbu away, Taylor away. Similar season to Lennon with us last year and all his hard work prior would have started to become a distant memory. He made the right decision in leaving imo.

[California-Hibs]

No we just have crap players

I could name a good few in that Scotland lineup that many would clearly point out aren't 'crap'. Painfully obvious but we could start with Champions League Winner Robertson & English Prem assist machine Ryan Fraser...

Just for starters that is. If those 2 players are crap then you should take up another sport.

Dont get me wrong, alot of under quality player but a good few high quality ones. If you had said crap centre halfs then I would of cut you some slack

[Dmas]

I could name a good few in that Scotland lineup that many would clearly point out aren't 'crap'. Painfully obvious but we could start with Champions League Winner Robertson & English Prem assist machine Ryan Fraser...

Just for starters that is. If those 2 players are crap then you should take up another sport.

Dont get me wrong, alot of under quality player but a good few high quality ones. If you had said crap centre halfs then I would of cut you some slack

Means nothing if you can’t take your club form into international games and not one player does.

[heretoday]

Scotland should put the accent on homegrown youth talent. I'm fed up seeing the likes of Mulgrew on the pitch.

[The Leith Dutch]

Means nothing if you can’t take your club form into international games and not one player does.

I agree that form on paper is no use of you don't bring it on to the park but I think his point to the original post was that Robertson and Fraser at least aren't crap players

[lyonhibs]

I could name a good few in that Scotland lineup that many would clearly point out aren't 'crap'. Painfully obvious but we could start with Champions League Winner Robertson & English Prem assist machine Ryan Fraser...

Just for starters that is. If those 2 players are crap then you should take up another sport.

Dont get me wrong, alot of under quality player but a good few high quality ones. If you had said crap centre halfs then I would of cut you some slack

There are 3 or 4 diamonds (who need to be playing with other diamonds to shine) in amongst a sea of absolute *****. And 2 of these diamonds play their best in the exact same position.

We have a paucity of overall squad strength not seen for a good while.

[theonlywayisup]

Should Clarke have stayed with Killie where he was enjoying a successful run?

As I said on the Scotland thread, same circus, different clowns.

It's the circus that needs fixed, not changing the clowns.

[we are hibs]

We arent even at slovakia and Serbia and the likes level. More like Lithuania and Georgia. We are sitting 2nd bottom of a group with Kazakstan and Cyprus above us. It isnt a fluke. Its thouroughly merited. International minnows.

[HIBERNIAN-0762]

Just not got the players, there is no light at the end of the tunnel for me, we need radical change at the top and new investment in our grass roots game, I have family in Holland and the set up there is fantastic. Won't hold my breath however as this mob only care about the ugly sisters.

[MWHIBBIES]

We arent even at slovakia and Serbia and the likes level. More like Lithuania and Georgia. We are sitting 2nd bottom of a group with Kazakstan and Cyprus above us. It isnt a fluke. Its thouroughly merited. International minnows.

Serbia have had some top players in the past 15 years (Vidic, Stankovic, Ivanovic, Kolarov, Nastasic, Milinkovic savic, Jovic) so I'm not really too ashamed at Scotland being worse than them. Even Slovakia had Hamsik for years who is better than any midfielder Scotland have had in decades.

Scotland are just pish, never been anything else in my lifetime. No point caring about them that much because there is just nothing there. They have no idea how to play to their strengths.

[chrisski33]

I could name a good few in that Scotland lineup that many would clearly point out aren't 'crap'. Painfully obvious but we could start with Champions League Winner Robertson & English Prem assist machine Ryan Fraser...

Just for starters that is. If those 2 players are crap then you should take up another sport.

Dont get me wrong, alot of under quality player but a good few high quality ones. If you had said crap centre halfs then I would of cut you some slack

Premier League and champions League players blah blah blah.
Not exactly bringing to the national team.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Be realistic we havent got good enough players. If we did have good players we would have qualify for major tournaments which we haven't for decades.

Jeez Cyprus are 4 points ahead of us and I doubt we can beat them but no doubt someone with their head in the sand will say we will

[Phil MaGlass]

Hes a decent manager and will take time to put a decent team together, he needs a run of games like he has now to figure out his best team and players. Dont know why folk think we have crap players?

[calumhibee1]

Hes a decent manager and will take time to put a decent team together, he needs a run of games like he has now to figure out his best team and players. Dont know why folk think we have crap players?

We’ve some good players. Centre halves and strikers are dreadful though imo and until that changes we’ll always be atrocious at international level.

[BoomtownHibees]

Hes a decent manager and will take time to put a decent team together, he needs a run of games like he has now to figure out his best team and players. Dont know why folk think we have crap players?

You don’t think we have crap players?

[Phil MaGlass]

What we really need to be doing is getting the younger players in Porteous, Middleton etc... plan for the future.

Yes we do have some average players but to make sweeping generalizations nah

[Diclonius]

We have decent goalkeepers, good full-backs and decent midfielders. Our CBs and forwards are terrible.

It seems as though every national team in Europe has had at least one international class strker since we did (Dalglish?) and without that missing piece we'll continue to fail. Also, we keep ****ing conceding goals.

Clarke isn't the problem. He's the best man available for the position and he still can't do anything about it. Sack the SFA, get a proper ****ing youth system in place and we might qualify near the end of next decade.

[J-C]

McGinn, Fraser and Robertson all play with and against a higher level player at club level. You then ask them to do the same in a team that has Mulgrew, Snodgrass, Fleck, McBurnie and Burke, not going to happen.

[CorrieHibs]

Defensively we’re a shambles. Playing Devlin and Mulgrew was never going to work. Mulgrew is a very poor centre back. Don’t think Porteous is ready yet. Not had a full season in the first team. Although, I’m hopeful he’ll be in the squad for the WC qualifiers.

We have good players in midfield, but they all far too similar. No strikers, except for Griffiths.

Until we have a solid defence, I’m afraid we’ll be finishing 4th/5th in qualifiers.

[The 90+2]

I’m not sure what everyone expected with so many call offs?

[The 90+2]

McGinn, Fraser and Robertson all play with and against a higher level player at club level. You then ask them to do the same in a team that has Mulgrew, Snodgrass, Fleck, McBurnie and Burke, not going to happen.

Snodgrass Fleck and McBurnie play at the same level with their clubs?

[J-C]

Snodgrass Fleck and McBurnie play at the same level with their clubs?

Snodgrass past it, McBurnie more suited to rugby and Fleck is just average. The team is full of mediocrity with around 3 players at the standards we need. Time to get shot of all the pap and bring in the youngsters like Porteous, Middleton etc.

[Allant1981]

McGinn, Fraser and Robertson all play with and against a higher level player at club level. You then ask them to do the same in a team that has Mulgrew, Snodgrass, Fleck, McBurnie and Burke, not going to happen.

Is that the same fleck, mcburnie and snodgrass that play at the same level as them

[Not In The Know]

I could name a good few in that Scotland lineup that many would clearly point out aren't 'crap'. Painfully obvious but we could start with Champions League Winner Robertson & English Prem assist machine Ryan Fraser...

Just for starters that is. If those 2 players are crap then you should take up another sport.

Dont get me wrong, alot of under quality players but a good few high-quality ones. If you had said crap centre halfs then I would of cut you some slack
Agreed! the problem is they are both good players in good teams.

They will and are struggling coming into an average team. They are not the type of player or playing in a position that would enable them to drag a team through qualification (Gareth Bale). To a certain extent Mcginn did that for us, but its clear he's been told to play a very tight side of midfield and not do what he's good at... driving runs from the middle to get the team up the pitch.

We also have some very poor players on the pitch mostly in defence. Hence we look decent for 50-60 mins, then when the defence is called upon when we really need them - boom 3 goals down out of nowhere.

Can't really blame Clark too much......

[Allant1981]

Snodgrass past it, McBurnie more suited to rugby and Fleck is just average. The team is full of mediocrity with around 3 players at the standards we need. Time to get shot of all the pap and bring in the youngsters like Porteous, Middleton etc.

So stop playing guys playing at the highest level and play Middleton who cant start for a poor hibs team, glad you are no where near picking a team

[Pretty Boy]

It all boils down to both money and a series of plans and proposals that have failed.

In 1994 France failed to qualify for the World Cup in the USA. It was an embarrassment for them and with a home WC on the horizon they conducted a thorough investigation into what went wrong, the outcomes of said investigation and the plan put in place has been well documented elsewhere. They reached the semi finals of Euro 96, won the 1998 World Cup, won Euro 2000, reached the final of the 2006 World Cup, reached the final of Euro 2016 and won the 2018 World Cup. Of course there were a few lean years in among that. However in 12 major tournaments since 1994 France have appeared in 5 finals and won 3 of them. I don't think anyone in Scotland really believes we should be emulating that, reaching a major tournament is our aim. Since 1998 we have had 8 permanent managers, the McLeish report, Project Brave and 2 overhauls of youth development leagues and have one solitary play off appearance to show for it in which we were beaten 6-1 on aggregate. Whatever we have done and continue to do has not and does not work.

I said in my opening line it boils down to money and I think that covers a few areas. Firstly our top league is small and cut throat. There is close to a 17% chance of ending up in either a relegation or play off position, the economic impact of relegation is such that managers can't risk throwing untried youngsters into a team if there is any chance of getting dragged into that fight. Of course restructuring the league is far from simple and again comes down to money. Every club budgets on the OF bringing big crowds, our TV deal relies on their being 4 OF games a season and the various alternative suggestions for how to set up the league all have their problems. Secondly our next door neighbour is a financial behemoth and can lure our young talent away at a young age then discard them a few years later with no financial consequence. That creates a situation in which clubs become terrified of missing out on their next big asset so we take increasing numbers of young players out of youth football at an increasingly young age with an emphasis as much on quantity as quality. You can end up in a situation in which a late developer is out the game as a 'failed footballer' by 14 or 15 years old. Our facilities are expensive, our coaching courses at the entry levels are 'turn up and you pass' and I think our entire football culture has become less about enjoying and learning the game. I don't buy into the whole 'Playstations are to blame' nonsense. They have Playstations in Croatia, Wales, Iceland and Slovenia and they have all made it to major finals in recent years and often surpassed expectations.

Pointing out the problems is in many ways the easy part, finding the solutions is trickier. We seem determined to keep trying various incarnations of the same things that have failed before though and we keep navel gazing when they don't work. I think it requires and outside body with no vested interests in the status quo to come in and evaluate the whole game from top to bottom; it will never happen though as too many people have too much to lose.

[J-C]

So stop playing guys playing at the highest level and play Middleton who cant start for a poor hibs team, glad you are no where near picking a team

So you're happy to carry on playing the dross, bit similar to Heckingbottom picking Newell and Doidge over Murray and Shaw. Play crap average players and that's team you'll get, just look at Hibs right now.

Middleton's been a stand out in his last 2 U21 matches.

[Cataplana]

I think a bad decision would be to listen to people who are only capable of knee jerk reactions.

[Diclonius]

It all boils down to both money and a series of plans and proposals that have failed.

In 1994 France failed to qualify for the World Cup in the USA. It was an embarrassment for them and with a home WC on the horizon they conducted a thorough investigation into what went wrong, the outcomes of said investigation and the plan put in place has been well documented elsewhere. They reached the semi finals of Euro 96, won the 1998 World Cup, won Euro 2000, reached the final of the 2006 World Cup, reached the final of Euro 2016 and won the 2018 World Cup. Of course there were a few lean years in among that. However in 12 major tournaments since 1994 France have appeared in 5 finals and won 3 of them. I don't think anyone in Scotland really believes we should be emulating that, reaching a major tournament is our aim. Since 1998 we have had 8 permanent managers, the McLeish report, Project Brave and 2 overhauls of youth development leagues and have one solitary play off appearance to show for it in which we were beaten 6-1 on aggregate. Whatever we have done and continue to do has not and does not work.

I said in my opening line it boils down to money and I think that covers a few areas. Firstly our top league is small and cut throat. There is close to a 17% chance of ending up in either a relegation or play off position, the economic impact of relegation is such that managers can't risk throwing untried youngsters into a team if there is any chance of getting dragged into that fight. Of course restructuring the league is far from simple and again comes down to money. Every club budgets on the OF bringing big crowds, our TV deal relies on their being 4 OF games a season and the various alternative suggestions for how to set up the league all have their problems. Secondly our next door neighbour is a financial behemoth and can lure our young talent away at a young age then discard them a few years later with no financial consequence. That creates a situation in which clubs become terrified of missing out on their next big asset so we take increasing numbers of young players out of youth football at an increasingly young age with an emphasis as much on quantity as quality. You can end up in a situation in which a late developer is out the game as a 'failed footballer' by 14 or 15 years old. Our facilities are expensive, our coaching courses at the entry levels are 'turn up and you pass' and I think our entire football culture has become less about enjoying and learning the game. I don't buy into the whole 'Playstations are to blame' nonsense. They have Playstations in Croatia, Wales, Iceland and Slovenia and they have all made it to major finals in recent years and often surpassed expectations.

Pointing out the problems is in many ways the easy part, finding the solutions is trickier. We seem determined to keep trying various incarnations of the same things that have failed before though and we keep navel gazing when they don't work. I think it requires and outside body with no vested interests in the status quo to come in and evaluate the whole game from top to bottom; it will never happen though as too many people have too much to lose.

:aok: Couldn't agree more.

[Carheenlea]

With more and more Scotland fans becoming a bit detached from the National side, it’s probably a good opportunity to stick with Steve Clarke long term and give him the time to get a group together and try to create that club style environment and spirit at national level which has served the likes of Northern Ireland well in recent years.
It’s got to the stage where the fans are caring less (the armchair/pub fans) and have little appetite for further managerial change or care enough right now to heap a lot of pressure on the manager, so this might work out for Clarke in the long run and see the country becoming engaged with the Scotland team once again somewhere down the line.

[Allant1981]

So you're happy to carry on playing the dross, bit similar to Heckingbottom picking Newell and Doidge over Murray and Shaw. Play crap average players and that's team you'll get, just look at Hibs right now.

So you genuinely think the 2 players you stated( I like porteous) would have done better last night. Middleton is bang average at club level in scotland and would have done nothing and that man mountain up front for russia would have battered porteous last night, Devlin/mulgrew are more experienced and bigger than porteous and had no chance against him. I'm not even going to start debating our manager or selections as it's been do e to death on other threads

[supermcginn]

What we really need to be doing is getting the younger players in Porteous, Middleton etc... plan for the future.

Yes we do have some average players but to make sweeping generalizations nah

Glenn Middleton? Haha you must be joking, he can't even get a game for us.

[lyonhibs]

Is that the same fleck, mcburnie and snodgrass that play at the same level as them

If you think Fleck, Mcburnie and Snodgrass are football players actually of the same level as Robertson, McGinn and Forrest just because they eke out a living in the nether regions (or midriff) of the same league then a trip to Specsavers is required. Snodgrass a bit less so, but still the point stands.

We have 3 or 4 players who are capable of shining when surrounded by players of a similar standard but they aren't superhumans who are going to drag the wretched corpse of top level talent-deficient lumps that is most of the rest of the squad to a major championship.

[Allant1981]

If you think Fleck, Mcburnie and Snodgrass are football players actually of the same level as Robertson, McGinn and Forrest just because they eke out a living in the nether regions (or midriff) of the same league then a trip to Specsavers is required. Snodgrass a bit less so, but still the point stands.

We have 3 or 4 players who are capable of shining when surrounded by players of a similar standard but they aren't superhumans who are going to drag the wretched corpse of top level talent-deficient lumps that is most of the rest of the squad to a major championship.

I didnt once say they are at the same level, they are clearly better players, but they play at the same level as the players quoted and whether you and others want to admit it or not are the best players in the pool we can choose from, they should be doing better as they are good enough to be playing better.

[J-C]

Glenn Middleton? Haha you must be joking, he can't even get a game for us.

Ffs Murray, Shaw cant get a game for us and that's down to the manager. Middleton is another play being stifled by our managers dont lose tactics.

[Diclonius]

Here are the players we currently have who are capable of competing with other national teams and reaching a major tournament. Brackets for the ones who are potentially capable, if given time to develop/prove themselves more.


(Marshall)

N/A (McKenna) N/A Robertson/Tierney

McGinn McTominay (Christie)

Fraser N/A N/A


Basically, we have four definites, three maybes and the rest don't exist. Depressing.

[Allant1981]

Here are the players we currently have who are capable of competing with other national teams and reaching a major tournament. Brackets for the ones who are potentially capable, if given time to develop/prove themselves more.


(Marshall)

N/A (McKenna) N/A Robertson/Tierney

McGinn McTominay (Christie)

Fraser N/A N/A


Basically, we have four definites, three maybes and the rest don't exist. Depressing.

IF Griffiths ever gets sorted then he is more than capable of scoring against anyone, it's a big if just now though. Mental that we dont have any other options up front

[makaveli1875]

Glenn Middleton? Haha you must be joking, he can't even get a game for us.

He was man of the match for the under 21's last night .

[500miles]

We've got a real problem at centre half and centre forward. If you're not strong in these positions, you'll always struggle, regardless of the talent around them.

[supermcginn]

Ffs Murray, Shaw cant get a game for us and that's down to the manager. Middleton is another play being stifled by our managers dont lose tactics.

Maybe all 3 just aren't that great?

[Allant1981]

Maybe all 3 just aren't that great?

Nah it's the manager, keep up!!

[The Harp Awakes]

We've got a real problem at centre half and centre forward. If you're not strong in these positions, you'll always struggle, regardless of the talent around them.

I agree that the deficiencies are up front and in central defence. I'd also add right back to that list.

There is no magic wand when you don't have decent players to come into these positions, but I don't think the Manager has helped the situation with his team formations. With Kilmarnock he was successful by putting everyone behind the ball when out of possession and then breaking quickly in numbers on the break. His full backs with Scotland play too expansively and forget to defend, and when you add such a weak central defence it's no surprise we're leaking goals all over the place. He needs to get back to basics and make us harder to beat.

I do agree with some of the criticism of his team selection as well though. O'Donnell has played at right back up to last night, but IMO is completely out of his depth. Snodgrass has been tried, tested and has failed and Burke is clearly not international class. Not sure what was wrong with McTominay last night (injured?) but I like the look of him. McGinn, McGregor and Forrest are all decent midfielders. Fleck I thought did ok last night and Fraser is worth persevering with. I'd give Shankland a run in the team starting on Sunday. Goalkeeper and midfield aren't a problem and give us the foundation to build on.

[hibbie02]

Here are the players we currently have who are capable of competing with other national teams and reaching a major tournament. Brackets for the ones who are potentially capable, if given time to develop/prove themselves more.


(Marshall)

N/A (McKenna) N/A Robertson/Tierney

McGinn McTominay (Christie)

Fraser N/A N/A


Basically, we have four definites, three maybes and the rest don't exist. Depressing.

The defence is rank rotten. We are unfortunate in having Robertson and Tierney competing for the same position and no one else competing for the rest of the defence. Mulgrew should never play for Scotland again. We have struggled for years at Cb and he has never been the solution. We need to look to the 21s and start bringing them through. Now is the time when we are at a low ebb and a few meaningless matches to come.

McGinn has to play every game, but please play him further forward as he has cost us a few goals with crap passes when too deep. McTominay should also start, but I only because of lack of options. I had hoped Stuart Armstrong would have pushed on at Southampton but he hasn't. Celtic midfielders haven't progressed at international level either. Again, maybe time to bring in a youngster and let them run and show us what they can do.

Fraser is also a must start but I feel he is best on the Left but is then in Robertson's way coming forward. I think there is a player there in Ollie Burke, and Shankland may not be out of his depth. If we have to play one up front, don't play them wide, play wide players and get the ball in. Both Burke and Shankland spent too long out wide looking for the ball. We need a wee gallous winger who is not afraid to run at someone and take some punishment.
Snodgrass is still rated at West Ham, but I think his days are over at international level.

I suspect if we get rid of Clarke as manager, no one else will touch the job. So we have to stick with him and see what he can do over a longer period.

[hibstag]

It all boils down to both money and a series of plans and proposals that have failed.

In 1994 France failed to qualify for the World Cup in the USA. It was an embarrassment for them and with a home WC on the horizon they conducted a thorough investigation into what went wrong, the outcomes of said investigation and the plan put in place has been well documented elsewhere. They reached the semi finals of Euro 96, won the 1998 World Cup, won Euro 2000, reached the final of the 2006 World Cup, reached the final of Euro 2016 and won the 2018 World Cup. Of course there were a few lean years in among that. However in 12 major tournaments since 1994 France have appeared in 5 finals and won 3 of them. I don't think anyone in Scotland really believes we should be emulating that, reaching a major tournament is our aim. Since 1998 we have had 8 permanent managers, the McLeish report, Project Brave and 2 overhauls of youth development leagues and have one solitary play off appearance to show for it in which we were beaten 6-1 on aggregate. Whatever we have done and continue to do has not and does not work.

I said in my opening line it boils down to money and I think that covers a few areas. Firstly our top league is small and cut throat. There is close to a 17% chance of ending up in either a relegation or play off position, the economic impact of relegation is such that managers can't risk throwing untried youngsters into a team if there is any chance of getting dragged into that fight. Of course restructuring the league is far from simple and again comes down to money. Every club budgets on the OF bringing big crowds, our TV deal relies on their being 4 OF games a season and the various alternative suggestions for how to set up the league all have their problems. Secondly our next door neighbour is a financial behemoth and can lure our young talent away at a young age then discard them a few years later with no financial consequence. That creates a situation in which clubs become terrified of missing out on their next big asset so we take increasing numbers of young players out of youth football at an increasingly young age with an emphasis as much on quantity as quality. You can end up in a situation in which a late developer is out the game as a 'failed footballer' by 14 or 15 years old. Our facilities are expensive, our coaching courses at the entry levels are 'turn up and you pass' and I think our entire football culture has become less about enjoying and learning the game. I don't buy into the whole 'Playstations are to blame' nonsense. They have Playstations in Croatia, Wales, Iceland and Slovenia and they have all made it to major finals in recent years and often surpassed expectations.

Pointing out the problems is in many ways the easy part, finding the solutions is trickier. We seem determined to keep trying various incarnations of the same things that have failed before though and we keep navel gazing when they don't work. I think it requires and outside body with no vested interests in the status quo to come in and evaluate the whole game from top to bottom; it will never happen though as too many people have too much to lose.

I agree with all of this,
I d like to Add when we failed to qualify for 2002 Craig Brown (his second failure after the close England play off 2000) walked in to the press conference and stated 'do you want to talk about the game or my future' ...when are you going to resign was the question from the floor the press who were desperate to get rid 'my contract ends in June was his reply' the SFA appointed the buffoon from Germany to replace him the national team has never been the same since it was close under Smith/McLeish but just failing to qualify is a distant memory

[easty]

He was man of the match for the under 21's last night .

In a 0-0 draw at home to Lithuania U21's, dunno how big an achievement MOTM is there?

[California-Hibs]

I agree that form on paper is no use of you don't bring it on to the park but I think his point to the original post was that Robertson and Fraser at least aren't crap players

Exactly my point.

[California-Hibs]

Premier League and champions League players blah blah blah.
Not exactly bringing to the national team.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Be realistic we havent got good enough players. If we did have good players we would have qualify for major tournaments which we haven't for decades.

Jeez Cyprus are 4 points ahead of us and I doubt we can beat them but no doubt someone with their head in the sand will say we will

We'll see what the play offs bring and if we qualify or not for Euro 2020. I still retain we have more than capable players, abit centre halfs and striker is a huge concern. Full backs and midfielders have more than enough quality (and are of higher quality than the likes of Northern Ireland, Wales etc) to have us performing better and it could simply be a case of one or two tweaks by Clarke that sees them flourishing. Or building confidence which we have a perfect opportunity to do in the next 3 games.

Hopefully won't be long before Griffiths sorts out our striking problems

[ScottB]

Clarke has to shoulder some responsibility, there’s no shame in being beaten by Belgium, or away in Russia, but to be utterly turned over? Nah.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Can't blame Clarke for taking the national team job, but we are terrible, really dire, and it's a thankless task. Will we ever qualify for another tournament? It's been twenty years and we are getting worse.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Clarke has to shoulder some responsibility, there’s no shame in being beaten by Belgium, or away in Russia, but to be utterly turned over? Nah.

Russia is a country of 200 million; we are less than 6 million. A heavy beating is always a possibility.

[Chorley Hibee]

It all boils down to both money and a series of plans and proposals that have failed.

In 1994 France failed to qualify for the World Cup in the USA. It was an embarrassment for them and with a home WC on the horizon they conducted a thorough investigation into what went wrong, the outcomes of said investigation and the plan put in place has been well documented elsewhere. They reached the semi finals of Euro 96, won the 1998 World Cup, won Euro 2000, reached the final of the 2006 World Cup, reached the final of Euro 2016 and won the 2018 World Cup. Of course there were a few lean years in among that. However in 12 major tournaments since 1994 France have appeared in 5 finals and won 3 of them. I don't think anyone in Scotland really believes we should be emulating that, reaching a major tournament is our aim. Since 1998 we have had 8 permanent managers, the McLeish report, Project Brave and 2 overhauls of youth development leagues and have one solitary play off appearance to show for it in which we were beaten 6-1 on aggregate. Whatever we have done and continue to do has not and does not work.

I said in my opening line it boils down to money and I think that covers a few areas. Firstly our top league is small and cut throat. There is close to a 17% chance of ending up in either a relegation or play off position, the economic impact of relegation is such that managers can't risk throwing untried youngsters into a team if there is any chance of getting dragged into that fight. Of course restructuring the league is far from simple and again comes down to money. Every club budgets on the OF bringing big crowds, our TV deal relies on their being 4 OF games a season and the various alternative suggestions for how to set up the league all have their problems. Secondly our next door neighbour is a financial behemoth and can lure our young talent away at a young age then discard them a few years later with no financial consequence. That creates a situation in which clubs become terrified of missing out on their next big asset so we take increasing numbers of young players out of youth football at an increasingly young age with an emphasis as much on quantity as quality. You can end up in a situation in which a late developer is out the game as a 'failed footballer' by 14 or 15 years old. Our facilities are expensive, our coaching courses at the entry levels are 'turn up and you pass' and I think our entire football culture has become less about enjoying and learning the game. I don't buy into the whole 'Playstations are to blame' nonsense. They have Playstations in Croatia, Wales, Iceland and Slovenia and they have all made it to major finals in recent years and often surpassed expectations.

Pointing out the problems is in many ways the easy part, finding the solutions is trickier. We seem determined to keep trying various incarnations of the same things that have failed before though and we keep navel gazing when they don't work. I think it requires and outside body with no vested interests in the status quo to come in and evaluate the whole game from top to bottom; it will never happen though as too many people have too much to lose.

A good analysis, but as you rightly say, nobody with responsibility wants to listen.

[hibbie02]

Russia is a country of 200 million; we are less than 6 million. A heavy beating is always a possibility.

How did that work out at the Rugby?

[Hibernia&Alba]

How did that work out at the Rugby?

Aye, but the Russians don't play rugby; football has always been huge over there, and they have had several very good sides.

[GordonHFC]

Am I bad for not even realising there was an International game on last night. I knew it was an break for internationals but had no idea the game was last night.

[hibbie02]

Aye, but the Russians don't play rugby; football has always been huge over there, and they have had several very good sides.

They obviously do as they qualified for the World Cup. Clearly we are a useful at football as they are about rugby.... :greengrin

[HibeeBigFly]

Here are the players we currently have who are capable of competing with other national teams and reaching a major tournament. Brackets for the ones who are potentially capable, if given time to develop/prove themselves more.


(Marshall)

N/A (McKenna) N/A Robertson/Tierney

McGinn McTominay (Christie)

Fraser N/A N/A


Basically, we have four definites, three maybes and the rest don't exist. Depressing.

That’s how I see it also, I’m hoping Gilmour and Johnston in time will add to the definites.

[HoboHarry]

Am I bad for not even realising there was an International game on last night. I knew it was an break for internationals but had no idea the game was last night.
I only discovered it by chance, stopped for a coffee break and saw it mentioned on the BBC :greengrin

[BoomtownHibees]

Here are the players we currently have who are capable of competing with other national teams and reaching a major tournament. Brackets for the ones who are potentially capable, if given time to develop/prove themselves more.


(Marshall)

N/A (McKenna) N/A Robertson/Tierney

McGinn McTominay (Christie)

Fraser N/A N/A


Basically, we have four definites, three maybes and the rest don't exist. Depressing.

You do realise that Marshall is 34 aye?

[HoboHarry]

You do realise that Marshall is 34 aye?
Not sure that is a bad thing for a goalkeeper honestly.

[BoomtownHibees]

Not sure that is a bad thing for a goalkeeper honestly.

No but the post I quoted was stating that he was a player with potential to develop/prove himself further. I can’t see that with a 34 year old, goalkeeper or not

[HoboHarry]

No but the post I quoted was stating that he was a player with potential to develop/prove himself further. I can’t see that with a 34 year old, goalkeeper or not
It was being reported that Scotland had approached Angus Gunn but he took aim at us and fired off that he wasn't interested.......

[Hibernia&Alba]

No but the post I quoted was stating that he was a player with potential to develop/prove himself further. I can’t see that with a 34 year old, goalkeeper or not

Where is he playing now? He seemed to just disappear.

[BoomtownHibees]

Where is he playing now? He seemed to just disappear.

Wigan

I’m no saying he’s a bad goalie, prob the best we have just now. Just longing out he’s not going to improve/develop any further at this stage of his career

[BoomtownHibees]

It was being reported that Scotland had approached Angus Gunn but he took aim at us and fired off that he wasn't interested.......

No surprise

[easty]

It was being reported that Scotland had approached Angus Gunn but he took aim at us and fired off that he wasn't interested.......

Good. I wish more footballers would reject call ups to a country that they in no way claim to be from. A bit of patriotism.

[Hi Heid Yin]

It all boils down to both money and a series of plans and proposals that have failed.

In 1994 France failed to qualify for the World Cup in the USA. It was an embarrassment for them and with a home WC on the horizon they conducted a thorough investigation into what went wrong, the outcomes of said investigation and the plan put in place has been well documented elsewhere. They reached the semi finals of Euro 96, won the 1998 World Cup, won Euro 2000, reached the final of the 2006 World Cup, reached the final of Euro 2016 and won the 2018 World Cup. Of course there were a few lean years in among that. However in 12 major tournaments since 1994 France have appeared in 5 finals and won 3 of them. I don't think anyone in Scotland really believes we should be emulating that, reaching a major tournament is our aim. Since 1998 we have had 8 permanent managers, the McLeish report, Project Brave and 2 overhauls of youth development leagues and have one solitary play off appearance to show for it in which we were beaten 6-1 on aggregate. Whatever we have done and continue to do has not and does not work.

I said in my opening line it boils down to money and I think that covers a few areas. Firstly our top league is small and cut throat. There is close to a 17% chance of ending up in either a relegation or play off position, the economic impact of relegation is such that managers can't risk throwing untried youngsters into a team if there is any chance of getting dragged into that fight. Of course restructuring the league is far from simple and again comes down to money. Every club budgets on the OF bringing big crowds, our TV deal relies on their being 4 OF games a season and the various alternative suggestions for how to set up the league all have their problems. Secondly our next door neighbour is a financial behemoth and can lure our young talent away at a young age then discard them a few years later with no financial consequence. That creates a situation in which clubs become terrified of missing out on their next big asset so we take increasing numbers of young players out of youth football at an increasingly young age with an emphasis as much on quantity as quality. You can end up in a situation in which a late developer is out the game as a 'failed footballer' by 14 or 15 years old. Our facilities are expensive, our coaching courses at the entry levels are 'turn up and you pass' and I think our entire football culture has become less about enjoying and learning the game. I don't buy into the whole 'Playstations are to blame' nonsense. They have Playstations in Croatia, Wales, Iceland and Slovenia and they have all made it to major finals in recent years and often surpassed expectations.

Pointing out the problems is in many ways the easy part, finding the solutions is trickier. We seem determined to keep trying various incarnations of the same things that have failed before though and we keep navel gazing when they don't work. I think it requires and outside body with no vested interests in the status quo to come in and evaluate the whole game from top to bottom; it will never happen though as too many people have too much to lose.

:top marks

[weecounty hibby]

Aye, but the Russians don't play rugby; football has always been huge over there, and they have had several very good sides.
Rugby is a minority sport in both countries though. Football is Scotland's national sport. By a very large distance there are far more football players than rugby players in Scotland. There are more registered rugby players in Yorkshire than in Scotland but we seem to be able to at least challenge at rugby. In football we are marginally better than San Marino and Gibraltar. The rugby players also don't call off at the drop of a hat for minor injuries. They look like they want to be here, play with passion and commitment as well. Playing for Scotland at football has long since stopped being the pinnacle for these guys. Is anyone surprised that McBurnie called off from a trip to Russia? I'm not after his comments about Scotland. Get him to **** and get in players who actually want to play for the national side.
There are so many things wrong in Scottish football right now and it will take years to sort. Pretty Boy had a very good post above about France but France don't have the millstone of the OF to contend with. SPFL/SFA are more interested in keeping them happy than having a successful national team

[G B Young]

Should Clarke have stayed with Killie where he was enjoying a successful run?

He must now be thinking he was nuts to leave Killie for the Scotland job. He could have had his pick of some decent jobs down south if he'd waited a bit longer. Instead he's now seen his stock plummet and questions beginning to be asked about whether he's actually all that great a manager after all.

[One Day Soon]

It's unfixable. Literally cannot be turned around.

[JimBHibees]

It's unfixable. Literally cannot be turned around.

Dont think it is. Strachan should have been kept on unless oneill was definitely coming. He was making progress and was a stupid pass and half decent keeper from beating England. Clarke is a decent club manager. He was good at killie because he had the players every day. Even when his team were doing well they were functional and pretty dull to watch. Now he gets players for 2 or 3 days.

[Sir David Gray]

I've said before that I seriously think that Scotland should withdraw from all competitive tournaments for the foreseeable future. We should focus on getting the correct structures in place that will give us the best possible chance of succeeding.

Until we do that we're just wasting our time entering tournaments.

Does anyone seriously think we'll qualify for Euro 2020 through the play offs next year?

Not a chance in my opinion.

[Vault Boy]

Thought Clarke would bring a new approach and invoke some creativity into squad selections, but I've been really disappointed. Whilst the squad looks different, his starting 11 choices have baffled me, and the choice of defenders in particular has been dreadful.

We clearly don't have the most talented group right now, but there's definitely better choices to be made.

I really want to see players like Liam Lindsay, Porteous, Turnbull (when fit), Campbell, Bates, Sir Hendo, Billy Gilmour, Mikey Johnston, Aaron Hickey etc given a chance in the first team squad. It's time to look forward, not backwards at players like Mulgrew and Snoddy IMO.

Still can't believe we went with Mulgrew and Devlin, the mind boggles.

[pacorosssco]

Micheal O'Neill had awful first 2-3 years in job. We need to give him time. SFA are at fault state of team. No vision .

[Vault Boy]

Micheal O'Neill had awful first 2-3 years in job. We need to give him time. SFA are at fault state of team. No vision .

This is a completely fair point, not that I think he's blameless in the results. Things tend to take longer with international management.

[B.H.F.C]

This is a completely fair point, not that I think he's blameless in the results. Things tend to take longer with international management.

Thought Clarke was getting his excuses in before a ball was kicked in Russia. Talking about how he’s only really done 20 minutes of proper coaching on Monday. And then we had a flight and all that. That’s international football!

Agree on the O’Neill point though. He was given a bit time and managed to get a lesser group of players than we have to a tournament. And, although, they’re unlikely to qualify for this one he at least has them punching their weight in the group.

[One Day Soon]

Dont think it is. Strachan should have been kept on unless oneill was definitely coming. He was making progress and was a stupid pass and half decent keeper from beating England. Clarke is a decent club manager. He was good at killie because he had the players every day. Even when his team were doing well they were functional and pretty dull to watch. Now he gets players for 2 or 3 days.

We've been 5hit for pretty much 20 years, arguably longer. There's no sign of improvement or the hope of improvement. Our game is broken because its structure, management and purpose is focussed primarily on the interests of two teams, secondarily on the interests of the larger minnows around those teams - and in any event it can't even properly shape its top league in the best interests of the wider game.

The two top teams - top because they are bloated and dominant due to their sectarian history and its contemporary pan-Scottish catchment area which no other teams have - can't improve themselves or their players past a glass ceiling imposed by the lack of serious competition in our premier league. The two top teams also won't share resources on a fairer basis in order to allow those other teams to provide more meaningful competion. Catch 22. This gives us a game which TV deals will only fund to a relatively minor level because the only games they really want to cover involve the two top teams - because other teams are not seen as serious challengers so the tv advertising audience is largely followers of the Ugly Sisters,. Neutrals don't watch in large enough numbers to fuel the advertising revenues and never will because, again, the league is rightly seen as a two-horse race plus also-rans.

There's a cancer at the heart of our game. It doesn't care about Scottish football, it just cares about dominance within Glasgow, nurturing its own monopolistic tribal rivalry, the mind numbing meaninglessness of getting to or stopping 10 in a row and sustaining its position as two bigger fish in a tiny pond. All the action plans, all the grand ambitions, all the supposed innovation, all the demand for change will always, always, always break on the rocks of pleasing these two teams and the governing body that protects them. The need to serve their interests will inevitably mean compromising, undermining,diverting or delaying any substantive change that threatens their vested interests directly or indirectly.

It is unfixable and it literally cannot be turned around.

Steve Clarke isn't to blame, he's just the latest fall guy.

[Carheenlea]

I've said before that I seriously think that Scotland should withdraw from all competitive tournaments for the foreseeable future. We should focus on getting the correct structures in place that will give us the best possible chance of succeeding.

Until we do that we're just wasting our time entering tournaments.

Does anyone seriously think we'll qualify for Euro 2020 through the play offs next year?

Not a chance in my opinion.

I don’t think we will, but we have a better chance of qualifying through the play offs than if we just quit international football. By that logic, should the 158 countries below us in the rankings withdraw as well? A lot of people would be happy with that mind you - get rid of the dross and keep the sport at international level for elite nations only.

[JimBHibees]

We've been 5hit for pretty much 20 years, arguably longer. There's no sign of improvement or the hope of improvement. Our game is broken because its structure, management and purpose is focussed primarily on the interests of two teams, secondarily on the interests of the larger minnows around those teams - and in any event it can't even properly shape its top league in the best interests of the wider game.

The two top teams - top because they are bloated and dominant due to their sectarian history and its contemporary pan-Scottish catchment area which no other teams have - can't improve themselves or their players past a glass ceiling imposed by the lack of serious competition in our premier league. The two top teams also won't share resources on a fairer basis in order to allow those other teams to provide more meaningful competion. Catch 22. This gives us a game which TV deals will only fund to a relatively minor level because the only games they really want to cover involve the two top teams - because other teams are not seen as serious challengers so the tv advertising audience is largely followers of the Ugly Sisters,. Neutrals don't watch in large enough numbers to fuel the advertising revenues and never will because, again, the league is rightly seen as a two-horse race plus also-rans.

There's a cancer at the heart of our game. It doesn't care about Scottish football, it just cares about dominance within Glasgow, nurturing its own monopolistic tribal rivalry, the mind numbing meaninglessness of getting to or stopping 10 in a row and sustaining its position as two bigger fish in a tiny pond. All the action plans, all the grand ambitions, all the supposed innovation, all the demand for change will always, always, always break on the rocks of pleasing these two teams and the governing body that protects them. The need to serve their interests will inevitably mean compromising, undermining,diverting or delaying any substantive change that threatens their vested interests directly or indirectly.

It is unfixable and it literally cannot be turned around.

Steve Clarke isn't to blame, he's just the latest fall guy.

Fantastic summation of the corrupt game here however Clarke should be getting much more out the players than currently is and emphasises even more the nonsensical decision of getting rid of him and ending up with Mcleish.

[Sir David Gray]

I don’t think we will, but we have a better chance of qualifying through the play offs than if we just quit international football. By that logic, should the 158 countries below us in the rankings withdraw as well? A lot of people would be happy with that mind you - get rid of the dross and keep the sport at international level for elite nations only.

How many of the 158 nations currently below us in the rankings can say that they are underperforming in the way that Scotland has been for the last 21 years?

Many of those 158 nations have found their level and are quite happy just competing at that level and have very little chance of progressing any further either due to the size of the country i.e. San Marino and Gibraltar or due to the fact that football just doesn't rank very highly in that country's list of priorities in comparison with other sports i.e. India and Canada.

Football is by far the number one sport in Scotland and whilst we maybe don't have the population to rival the likes of Brazil, Germany, France or England which is likely to limit how far we are actually able to progress, we are massively underperforming for a country of 5 million people, many of whom consider football to be their main sport.

Just last year there was a report out stating that Scottish football was the best supported in Europe per head of population. Obviously a lot of that is down to Celtic and Rangers but we are punching massively below our weight right now and something radical has to be done to change that.

[Yorkshire HFC]

[QUOTE=Sir David Gray;5954575]How many of the 158 nations currently below us in the rankings can say that they are underperforming in the way that Scotland has been for the last 21 years?

I'd like to see all SPL clubs play only Scottish players as a start.

Why do Hibs (and Hearts, Livingston, Partick etc.) have payers from Ecuador, Trinidad etc. playing for them?

We should stop signing second rate foreign players and play Scottish players.

But the fans demand "exciting" signings, so this is unlikely to happen.

[B.H.F.C]

Fantastic summation of the corrupt game here however Clarke should be getting much more out the players than currently is and emphasises even more the nonsensical decision of getting rid of him and ending up with Mcleish.

I agree. Scottish football isn’t without its problems but I still think the national team should be capable of better than what we’re seeing.

There is loads of examples of countries who manage to be much more competitive than us whilst having poor domestic leagues and only one or two players playing at the real top level, if that.

Republic of Ireland are a good example. Full of players from the English Championship but managed to get to the last two Euros and top of their current group. For whatever reason, they manage to get a good spirit and punch their weight. We’ve got more players playing at a good level than them. Northern Ireland are the other example, are their players better than ours as individuals? Iceland had Victor Palsson and Kari Arnasan in their back four against France last night but managed to give them a game. It would have been a training session if we’d played them.

We should at least be managing to be competitive in games and groups.

[JimBHibees]

I agree. Scottish football isn’t without its problems but I still think the national team should be capable of better than what we’re seeing.

There is loads of examples of countries who manage to be much more competitive than us whilst having poor domestic leagues and only one or two players playing at the real top level, if that.

Republic of Ireland are a good example. Full of players from the English Championship but managed to get to the last two Euros and top of their current group. For whatever reason, they manage to get a good spirit and punch their weight. We’ve got more players playing at a good level than them. Northern Ireland are the other example, are their players better than ours as individuals? Iceland had Victor Palsson and Kari Arnasan in their back four against France last night but managed to give them a game. It would have been a training session if we’d played them.

We should at least be managing to be competitive in games and groups.

Agree Northern Ireland are the perfect example a mix of players playing at decent levels and others less so. They have a much better spirit and are competitive with better nations. They were unlucky against Germany at home and were a few minutes from beating holland away until the wheels fell off. In their home games they play in a full smaller stadium with a great atmosphere which is in total contrast from the not fit for purpose empty stadium we play our games in. We should be doing better and should also move some of the games to stadiums like ours.

[G B Young]

I've said before that I seriously think that Scotland should withdraw from all competitive tournaments for the foreseeable future. We should focus on getting the correct structures in place that will give us the best possible chance of succeeding.

Until we do that we're just wasting our time entering tournaments.

Does anyone seriously think we'll qualify for Euro 2020 through the play offs next year?

Not a chance in my opinion.

And even if we did, what really, would be the point? What's the thinking behind these back door play-offs? Do Uefa feel that rather than ensure the showpiece tournament contain only the best-performing teams they should try to add a few crappy cannon fodder teams like Scotland into the mix? Seems utterly pointless.

Instead of withdrawing form all competitive tournaments how about a 'B' tournament where teams like Scotland compete only with the other also-rans? Potentially winning a few games would feel better than endless humiliations at the hands of the top teams and if in event we ever looked able to hold our own in the 'A' tournaments there could be a promotion and relegation system introduced for qualifying.

[Carheenlea]

And even if we did, what really, would be the point? What's the thinking behind these back door play-offs? Do Uefa feel that rather than ensure the showpiece tournament contain only the best-performing teams they should try to add a few crappy cannon fodder teams like Scotland into the mix? Seems utterly pointless.

Instead of withdrawing form all competitive tournaments how about a 'B' tournament where teams like Scotland compete only with the other also-rans? Potentially winning a few games would feel better than endless humiliations at the hands of the top teams and if in event we ever looked able to hold our own in the 'A' tournaments there could be a promotion and relegation system introduced for qualifying.

A two or three tiered international format with promotion and demotion is not a bad shout at first thoughts.

[Jim44]

I would say that, considering our history, experience and standing in International football ( never great but generally ok ) and despite the number of players, playing at a decent club level ( some at a high level) and despite the fervour ( declining ) of our fans, we are possibly one of the worst, certainly the most underperforming, National teams in the world. I think SC has made a huge career error in taking on the job.

[Sir David Gray]

And even if we did, what really, would be the point? What's the thinking behind these back door play-offs? Do Uefa feel that rather than ensure the showpiece tournament contain only the best-performing teams they should try to add a few crappy cannon fodder teams like Scotland into the mix? Seems utterly pointless.

Instead of withdrawing form all competitive tournaments how about a 'B' tournament where teams like Scotland compete only with the other also-rans? Potentially winning a few games would feel better than endless humiliations at the hands of the top teams and if in event we ever looked able to hold our own in the 'A' tournaments there could be a promotion and relegation system introduced for qualifying.

It's not just endless humiliation at the hands of the top teams though. In the last three qualification groups we have lost to Kazakhstan, Slovakia and Georgia.

Scotland are in danger of losing touch with second and third rate teams if things keep going the way they are.

[ancient hibee]

Andorra has won a game.Nothing is impossible.

[stoneyburn hibs]

He has to be given time to turn our fortunes. We're hopeless just now but I think we have the players to perform much better, and certainly against teams like Russia.
The only concern I have is his constant chopping and changing of the starting eleven. He should have somewhat a fair idea of his first picks by now.

[Here’s Lucy!]

He’s not a great manager and he’s not a poor manager.

It’s the fact that Scotland has some absolutely rank footballers at its disposal that is the problem.

Mulgrew :faf::faf:

[cad]

We've been 5hit for pretty much 20 years, arguably longer. There's no sign of improvement or the hope of improvement. Our game is broken because its structure, management and purpose is focussed primarily on the interests of two teams, secondarily on the interests of the larger minnows around those teams - and in any event it can't even properly shape its top league in the best interests of the wider game.

The two top teams - top because they are bloated and dominant due to their sectarian history and its contemporary pan-Scottish catchment area which no other teams have - can't improve themselves or their players past a glass ceiling imposed by the lack of serious competition in our premier league. The two top teams also won't share resources on a fairer basis in order to allow those other teams to provide more meaningful competion. Catch 22. This gives us a game which TV deals will only fund to a relatively minor level because the only games they really want to cover involve the two top teams - because other teams are not seen as serious challengers so the tv advertising audience is largely followers of the Ugly Sisters,. Neutrals don't watch in large enough numbers to fuel the advertising revenues and never will because, again, the league is rightly seen as a two-horse race plus also-rans.

There's a cancer at the heart of our game. It doesn't care about Scottish football, it just cares about dominance within Glasgow, nurturing its own monopolistic tribal rivalry, the mind numbing meaninglessness of getting to or stopping 10 in a row and sustaining its position as two bigger fish in a tiny pond. All the action plans, all the grand ambitions, all the supposed innovation, all the demand for change will always, always, always break on the rocks of pleasing these two teams and the governing body that protects them. The need to serve their interests will inevitably mean compromising, undermining,diverting or delaying any substantive change that threatens their vested interests directly or indirectly.

It is unfix-able and it literally cannot be turned around.

Steve Clarke isn't to blame, he's just the latest fall guy.

Excellent post, had about 10 paragraphs but could be arsed mate suffice to say Steve Clark is a good manager I question his sanity in taking the job in the first place but thats for another day ..If you look at the Scotland job as a monopoly board how many "Get Out Of Jail Free Cards" over the years has the SFA used it cant always be the manager .????
30 years plus of diddly how do you do that, no improvement in 30 years and I mean zip zero nothing heehaw XXXX all with no light at the the end of a very very long in fact a never ending tunnel,to say its not looking good is an understatement .,I cant see Scotland qualifying for anything in the next 50 years we are not geared up for it ,its all very asking well asking Iceland Belgium and Afghanistan how they got their acts together what we should be asking is not how it happened but who`s going to fix it , but then that means getting shot of the weegie influence so it aint happening

[GreenArmy1875]

We should play international football at 100 mile per hour and direct as possible and see what happens

[MinceAndTatties]

In looking for positives from the latest debacle, I thought Palmer at right back did pretty well. He looked an upgrade from O'Donnell.

[Spike Mandela]

Should have stuck with Strachan, he was getting somewhere. No patience.

[Hibernia&Alba]

Andorra has won a game.Nothing is impossible.

Liechtenstein got a draw yesterday. Those two are probably catching us up :rolleyes:

[pontius pilate]

I think clark can turn scotlands fortunes around. Looking at the team against san marino I'd say it is full of youngsters with maybe an eye to the future. We still have the likes of cooper Griffiths Teirney could Souttar and Porteous do a job at the back? So yeah give him time I say

[CloudSquall]

I think he needs years to turn this mess around but if we don't see any sign of slight improvement (a shoring up of the defence, some sign of organisation) he has to go.

[B.H.F.C]

I think clark can turn scotlands fortunes around. Looking at the team against san marino I'd say it is full of youngsters with maybe an eye to the future. We still have the likes of cooper Griffiths Teirney could Souttar and Porteous do a job at the back? So yeah give him time I say

Until we have a proper centre half and a proper striker, we’re toiling. There are some good player dotted about but we really need a solid spine before we can improve.

[lyonhibs]

Should have stuck with Strachan, he was getting somewhere. No patience.

Don't know where "somewhere" was, but certainly not a major tournament.

Sadly, as noted elsewhere, the fundamental reason for the cliff-like decline in Scottish football's standing over the past 20 years cannot be solved by simply changing the poor sod on the touchline.

[Walter]

I think he needs years to turn this mess around but if we don't see any sign of slight improvement (a shoring up of the defence, some sign of organisation) he has to go.

I agree. Let him build. If he can't do it no one can so there is no point changing his role.

Its going to take a long time for him to establish a system that works with the players we have and develop the spine of the team, but If anyone can do it he can. We need to get behind him.

[SlickShoes]

It was sort of an impossible task to start with because we are dire but when your first 5 games are Belgium x2 Russia x2 and Cyprus, it was never going to go well. We beat Cyprus, and got horsed by two teams that were in the last 8 of the Wolrd Cup, one of which is ranked 1 in the world.

If we can win our last two games and finish 3rd in the group, plus put in a decent effort in this playoff I will be relatively happy.

Like others have said we have two gaping holes in the team, CH and Striker. Other teams are either very solid defensively and/or have a striker that can get you a win out of nothing, at the moment we have neither.

[AugustaHibs]

It was sort of an impossible task to start with because we are dire but when your first 5 games are Belgium x2 Russia x2 and Cyprus, it was never going to go well. We beat Cyprus, and got horsed by two teams that were in the last 8 of the Wolrd Cup, one of which is ranked 1 in the world.

If we can win our last two games and finish 3rd in the group, plus put in a decent effort in this playoff I will be relatively happy.

Like others have said we have two gaping holes in the team, CH and Striker. Other teams are either very solid defensively and/or have a striker that can get you a win out of nothing, at the moment we have neither.

What about Kazakhstan away

[Fergus52]

Don't know where "somewhere" was, but certainly not a major tournament.

Sadly, as noted elsewhere, the fundamental reason for the cliff-like decline in Scottish football's standing over the past 20 years cannot be solved by simply changing the poor sod on the touchline.

He came very close to taking us to the world cup.

Armstrong clearing the ball against England would have been enough for us to come second in the group.

The eventual finalists Croatia had a much easier qualifying group than we did and finished with only two points more.

[Here’s Lucy!]

Should have stuck with Strachan, he was getting somewhere. No patience.

Yes, wee Gordon is the best manager we have had for years.

[ancient hibee]

What about Kazakhstan away

What about it?