Fraser Murray & Oli Shaw

[MacGruber]

It's time for these boys to get their chance. Show a bit of faith in our young guys coming through. Not saying definite starters (though I would start Murray)
but need to be giving them chances from the bench at least to have an impact.

[makaveli1875]

It's time for these boys to get their chance. Show a bit of faith in our young guys coming through. Not saying definite starters (though I would start Murray)
but need to be giving them chances from the bench at least to have an impact.

Exactly, pointless *****ing millions on academy and training infrastructure to not bother giving any of the youngsters coming through a chance

[McKenzie]

Agree with Murray. Shaw is not the answer in front of goal for us. Surely questions have to be asked as why we are not producing the quality of player to challenge the average first time squad we have.

[Slim Shady]

They were both asked to go on loan in order to free money up so we could bring in other players.
one refused wanting to fight for his place.
The other wanted to go but didn’t fancy St Johnstone or Partick Thistle as the options.

Hecky is on video stating that Shaw would need to be moved on to bring a striker in.

[Musselbound]

Agree with Murray. Shaw is not the answer in front of goal for us. Surely questions have to be asked as why we are not producing the quality of player to challenge the average first time squad we have.

But who is the answer in front of goal? That in itself is an argument for more game time for Shaw until we get someone better in. I'd also like to see more of Fraser Murray.

[CloudSquall]

Questions have to be asked over the budget and how it was used if we ended up in the position that Shaw had to be moved out on loan if anyone was to be brought in.

[Unseen work]

It’s funny because I think Shaw is better than the vast majority make out and Murray isn’t as good as he is made out by some.

I do think both are good prospects but at 20/21 they really need to be starting or coming off the bench and making an impact.

Murrays main issue is his position, but I really like his ability to turn on the ball and always seems to have an effort at goal or create a chance.

Shaw I think of given the same amount of game time as Kamberi or Doidge this season, would have more goals.

Surprised if either of them turned down a move to St Johnstone unless they were told oppertunities would be similar to Hibs which I doubt.

I really want to see Gullan given a run in the team. Was also impressed with Block at right back the other day.

Does anyone know how Innes Murray is getting on? Couple of times iv seen him he’s a bit of a McGeouch type but never seems to get mentioned for the first team. He’s already 21 but has a contract until 2022 which he signed this summer? Seems a bit odd.

On a side note, when was the last player we brought through with genuine pace?

Although I hate Aberdeen and they have a lot of injuries, it was good to see them playing two youngster in Campbell (18) and Ethan Ross (18). Couldn’t see us doing that injuries or not.

[hibee-boys]

Not seen anything from these 2 that would lead me to believe they should be first team regulars. File under Handling, Stanton, Harris etc.

[The 90+2]

Simply not as good as Doidge and Newell.

Said nobody, ever.

[IberianHibernian]

The few times I`ve seen F Murray or Shaw they`ve shown promise and hopefully they`ll earn the chance to show their ability in the first team but there have always been players like that . I can remember seeing players in the reserve team in the 1970s who really impressed week in week out but in some cases never got even one first team match before being released ( days of only one sub made it harder for young players to get a chance ) .

[IberianHibernian]

Not seen anything from these 2 that would lead me to believe they should be first team regulars. File under Handling, Stanton, Harris etc.I agree about first bit but all 5 players you mention are still young and I`d be surprised if at least one of the five didn`t make an impact at at least Hibs level in the next five years assuming Handling and Harris still give priority to football in their work lives ( Stanton is playing in a higher division so I assume is still giving priority to football ) . Just wish we had players with talent of Harris or Sam Stanton on the bench now .

[Unseen work]

I agree about first bit but all 5 players you mention are still young and I`d be surprised if at least one of the five didn`t make an impact at at least Hibs level in the next five years assuming Handling and Harris still give priority to football in their work lives ( Stanton is playing in a higher division so I assume is still giving priority to football ) . Just wish we had players with talent of Harris or Sam Stanton on the bench now .

I’d be stunned if any made it to the top tier in Scotland with the exception of Stanton who may just about manage as a squad player with United if they get promoted.

Stanton and Harris wouldn’t get near our bench imo.

[DetroitHibs]

I listen to a lot of the old pro players on the Si Ferry podcast and everyone single one mentions the upbringing of young players making or breaking players. The young players cleaned the boots and terracing and had to earn the respect of the senior players. Changed days now. The youngsters are mollycoddled and wrapped in cotton wool.

It’s been discussed here before, that some saw it as borderline bullying and came from the dinosaur era. Wether people want to admit it, the dinosaurs still exist in our and the away support. These laddies come from our nice cosy East Mains in to the frying pan of abuse from our own supporters and the away end too. Most can’t hack it and go in to there shells and hide, we’ve seen it umpteen times with players from our academy. The lads need to be taught to toughen up and be mentally strong as well as physically strong.

[MWHIBBIES]

I listen to a lot of the old pro players on the Si Ferry podcast and everyone single one mentions the upbringing of young players making or breaking players. The young players cleaned the boots and terracing and had to earn the respect of the senior players. Changed days now. The youngsters are mollycoddled and wrapped in cotton wool.

It’s been discussed here before, that some saw it as borderline bullying and came from the dinosaur era. Wether people want to admit it, the dinosaurs still exist in our and the away support. These laddies come from our nice cosy East Mains in to the frying pan of abuse from our own supporters and the away end too. Most can’t hack it and go in to there shells and hide, we’ve seen it umpteen times with players from our academy. The lads need to be taught to toughen up and be mentally strong as well as physically strong.

Changed days for the better. The world in general is moving on from those times and its a very positive thing.

None of our young players are hiding, they just aren't getting minutes.

[McKenzie]

Changed days for the better. The world in general is moving on from those times and its a very positive thing.

None of our young players are hiding, they just aren't getting minutes.

To get minutes you have to be better than what is currently playing. Neither Murray or shaw are 100% better than what we have. We aren’t going to just play young players because they came from the academy. The academy players have to earn the right to play.

[DetroitHibs]

Changed days for the better. The world in general is moving on from those times and its a very positive thing.

None of our young players are hiding, they just aren't getting minutes.

The golden generation had to clean boots and deal with Yogi and the boys. They all talked about it and were better for it. You don’t hear them complain and say it was a bad thing. Since then we’ve had hundreds of youngsters come through the youth system and very few made it at Hibs.

Harris
Handling
Chisolm
Stanton
Booth
Wotherspoon
Forster
McCann
Byrne
Crane
Dabrowski

Just a few that have had minutes from previous managers and couldn’t make the grade. Name ten players that have broke in to the Hibs team and forged a good career with Hibs, or stepped up to better things in the last ten years.

[BILLYHIBS]

Hecky wanted to put Murray out on loan Murray refused stating he would rather stay and fight for his place

There is only going to be one winner

Murray to me looks quality

Shaw has not improved at the rate expected

He has looked lively in the short game time he has had just needs one of his attempts on goal to go in

I wonder what difference it would have made to his confidence if that goal against Hearts was allowed to stand

The way things are looking with Shaw it is like being in a long term relationship and you both know it should end. :greengrin

[MWHIBBIES]

The golden generation had to clean boots and deal with Yogi and the boys. They all talked about it and were better for it. You don’t hear them complain and say it was a bad thing. Since then we’ve had hundreds of youngsters come through the youth system and very few made it at Hibs.

Harris
Handling
Chisolm
Stanton
Booth
Wotherspoon
Forster
McCann
Byrne
Crane
Dabrowski

Just a few that have had minutes from previous managers and couldn’t make the grade. Name ten players that have broke in to the Hibs team and forged a good career with Hibs, or stepped up to better things in the last ten years.

I think we have bigger problems with youth development that aren't fixed by going back to "the ****in good ol' days"

This myth that actually supporting young players, treating them as human beings, giving them room to progress etc is bad just doesn't add up for me.

Wotherspoon has gone on to play in Europe and win the Scottish cup. He's had a very good career so far. Honestly, none of the others on that list were ever actually that good. You think Riordan scored 30 yards screamers all the time because he cleaned some boots and got the piss taken out of him by older players? No. He was actually just an exceptional talent along with the others in that side.

Shaw and Murray will have decent careers, maybe not at Hibs but they clearly have talent. Both would contribute and improve alot if we trusted them to play every week.

[Hibs4185]

Shaw has his doubters but I’m fairly sure he would’ve scored one or two of those chances on Saturday.

[makaveli1875]

Shaw has his doubters but I’m fairly sure he would’ve scored one or two of those chances on Saturday.

Shaws not good enough for this club apparently, we must persist with the 2 useless huddies we have up front. Even though neither of them can hit a barn door from 5 yards away

[Allant1981]

Shaws not good enough for this club apparently, we must persist with the 2 useless huddies we have up front. Even though neither of them can hit a barn door from 5 yards away

Well he clearly isnt seeing as he very rarely starts or plays under his current manager or previous manager. If he was doing enough in training or when he does get a chance he would be playing

[Brightside]

Murray needs to move in Jan. he’s the kind of player who would
be playing every week for the likes of Motherwell etc. Hibs appear scared to give young players a run of games now.

[SickBoy32]

Murray looked one of our better players in the League Cup fixtures in the summer, and has since been frozen out of the picture completely - bizzarre from PH, especially with the results his signings have brought us.

Always feel Shaw gets too much stick, good finisher and his physique is improving too. Think we all know he'd have buried at least one of those chances up at Pittodrie.

And to think we were told we were getting a manager who gave youth a chance :rolleyes:

[green with envy]

I find the Murray one quite bizarre, as Heckingbottom stated after we beat Livi last season - Friday night game how impressed he was with him after he came on as a sub and would be one of the young players that would be in his plans for the new season and was looking hopefully to build the team around.

How you can do that without playing him is beyond me, but then he has said other things that have yet to materialise.

[BlackSheep]

Agree with Murray. Shaw is not the answer in front of goal for us. Surely questions have to be asked as why we are not producing the quality of player to challenge the average first time squad we have.

It’s this attitude towards Shaw that is holding him back. He is a really good young player, but nerves/confidence seem to be getting the better of him.. especially considering the pressure he faces whenever he plays... we need goals and that pressure alone can cause players to fluff their lines... look at Doidge.

[Booked4Being-Ugly]

I feel sorry for Shaw. I actually think there’s a good player in there that simply needs more game time. Played well in the recent development game as well.

I would get him in now. It’s not as if Doidge and Kamberi are rattling them in anyway.

[makaveli1875]

Well he clearly isnt seeing as he very rarely starts or plays under his current manager or previous manager. If he was doing enough in training or when he does get a chance he would be playing

The previous 2 managers played him and he scored a few decent goals for them . the current manager is clueless

[turn and burn]

I can't see Heck giving them any minutes and they'll need to move on for game time. I might be called a heck hater or whatever, but let's be honest; he's a stubborn man who is going to stick with his terribly average signings than relent and take a chance on youngsters.

[Alex Trager]

Murray needs to move in Jan. he’s the kind of player who would
be playing every week for the likes of Motherwell etc. Hibs appear scared to give young players a run of games now.

Alternatively lets get rid of the manager.

[Gatecrasher]

I'd rather have Murray playing than the imposter playing his position now and Shaw is better leaving for the good of his career because if he's not getting a game ahead of a huddy like Doidge then the manager has spoken.

Maybe they know hecky won't be around for much longer and a new manager might give them the time they need.

[ancient hibee]

There’s no way the manager is going to play young locals ahead of money costing signings.He’s putting his own reputation before the team.Hence playing Middleton who has shown nothing better than Murray has shown.

[Spike Mandela]

It's time for these boys to get their chance. Show a bit of faith in our young guys coming through. Not saying definite starters (though I would start Murray)
but need to be giving them chances from the bench at least to have an impact.

I would say when the team is struggling, low in confidence and not getting results is the worst time to throw the young guys in. We need the experienced guys to get their act together and pull us out of this ****. Then throw the young guys in.

[Allant1981]

The previous 2 managers played him and he scored a few decent goals for them . the current manager is clueless

The previous 2 managers didnt play him every week though, he started 5 times in 17/18, and I think 10 times last year. Let's not make out that it's just been the current manager that hasnt played him every week

[Allant1981]

There’s no way the manager is going to play young locals ahead of money costing signings.He’s putting his own reputation before the team.Hence playing Middleton who has shown nothing better than Murray has shown.

Apart from porteous playing you mean?

[makaveli1875]

I would say when the team is struggling, low in confidence and not getting results is the worst time to throw the young guys in. We need the experienced guys to get their act together and pull us out of this ****. Then throw the young guys in.

Kamberi seems to have gone back to how he was when Lennon was ripping into him , waste of a jersey at the moment and Doidge is either confidence shot or he's just **** either way Shaw is the only other other striker we have , he can score goals and thats what we need

[Saint Hibee]

Kamberi seems to have gone back to how he was when Lennon was ripping into him , waste of a jersey at the moment and Doidge is either confidence shot or he's just **** either way Shaw is the only other other striker we have , he can score goals and thats what we need

Sorry to disagree, but Kamberi is nowhere near being a "waste of a jersey". He's actually been playing very well and only seems to have been dropped so that Heckingbottom can persist with his bizarre Doidge alone approach. I honestly don't think Shaw is, or ever will be, half the player Kamberi is.

[MacGruber]

I would say when the team is struggling, low in confidence and not getting results is the worst time to throw the young guys in. We need the experienced guys to get their act together and pull us out of this ****. Then throw the young guys in.

I don't know. People will say you can't put them in when you are struggling and low on confidence. People will say you can't put them in when you're doing well as those players have the jersey, don't change a winning team etc.

Look at Motherwell. Going nowhere, struggling, put faith in the youngters and now flying.

Is there ever an ideal time to put them in.

Both Middleton and Horgan have been out of sorts. Murray has looked excellent when given the chance.

[GreenCastle]

Murray I really feel for as he was showing form at start of the season and has a hardly been involved.

Shaw needs games to improve but isn’t getting that but missing a penalty against Kilmarnock won’t help his confidence plus the fact manager basically said he wants him out on loan.

[GoalsMcGinley]

To get minutes you have to be better than what is currently playing. Neither Murray or shaw are 100% better than what we have. We aren’t going to just play young players because they came from the academy. The academy players have to earn the right to play.

Shaw better than Doidge. Yes.
Murray better than Newell/Middleton/Horgan. 100%




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[GoalsMcGinley]

Hecky wanted to put Murray out on loan Murray refused stating he would rather stay and fight for his place

There is only going to be one winner

Murray to me looks quality

Shaw has not improved at the rate expected

He has looked lively in the short game time he has had just needs one of his attempts on goal to go in

I wonder what difference it would have made to his confidence if that goal against Hearts was allowed to stand

The way things are looking with Shaw it is like being in a long term relationship and you both know it should end. :greengrin

Fraser has never once refused to go out on loan. I can guarantee you that. In fact it is the exact opposite.


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[basehibby]

Murray in particular deserves more chances to shine. He is a real prospect and from what I've seen this season, should at least be on the bench every week if not starting.

[J-C]

Fraser has never once refused to go out on loan. I can guarantee you that. In fact it is the exact opposite.


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Are you saying he wanted to go on loan but Heckingbottom refused and is now not playing him?

[danhibees1875]

There’s no way the manager is going to play young locals ahead of money costing signings.He’s putting his own reputation before the team.Hence playing Middleton who has shown nothing better than Murray has shown.

Was PH not being ripped into a couple of games ago because he left all of his own signings on the bench? :dunno:

I'd definitely give Murray a shot. I'd probably prefer Doidge to Shaw myself though - there's room for both with a formation change.

[GoalsMcGinley]

Are you saying he wanted to go on loan but Heckingbottom refused and is now not playing him?

No. What I’m saying is he was more than willing to go on loan. He didn’t specifically ask but he definitely didn’t refuse to go on loan.


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[green with envy]

Was PH not being ripped into a couple of games ago because he left all of his own signings on the bench? :dunno:

I'd definitely give Murray a shot. I'd probably prefer Doidge to Shaw myself though - there's room for both with a formation change.

Shaw was doing really well before Heckingbottom came. A game in mind when May was in charge was when he came on as a sub away to St Mirren, 1-0 down at HT, he came on and scored a really good goal and changed the game for me that day.

Seems to me that Heckingbottom has never really fancied him and for that reason I believe that's why Shaw's confidence has dropped.

[The 90+2]

It can’t be doing the reputation of the club any good never giving the youngsters a chance or developing good enough players since Porto? Hanlon 11 years ago? Stevenson 12 years ago? The last player we brought through to sell on was Fletcher and you’re looking at 2014 I think he came through. Serious questions need to be asked somewhere surely?

[danhibees1875]

Shaw was doing really well before Heckingbottom came. A game in mind when May was in charge was when he came on as a sub away to St Mirren, 1-0 down at HT, he came on and scored a really good goal and changed the game for me that day.

Seems to me that Heckingbottom has never really fancied him and for that reason I believe that's why Shaw's confidence has dropped.

I think I remember that game. I remember mallan being key, but will take your word for it that Shaw changed things too.

I like Shaw. As I said, there would be space for him in a team with a different formation. He came on and looked lively towards the end of a game earlier this season.
I just don't think he'd be as effective as Doidge if we're playing 1 upfront.



It can’t be doing the reputation of the club any good never giving the youngsters a chance or developing good enough players since Porto? Hanlon 11 years ago? Stevenson 12 years ago? The last player we brought through to sell on was Fletcher and you’re looking at 2014 I think he came through. Serious questions need to be asked somewhere surely?

Knock 10 years off that. (Might be a typo actually).

It's not a great endorsement of our academy though. Hopefully we can see Mackie, Murray, Shaw, and there's been a couple others on the cusp change that.

[BILLYHIBS]

Fraser has never once refused to go out on loan. I can guarantee you that. In fact it is the exact opposite.


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Cool yer jets!

I am sure I read it somewhere see post #4

What is the real story then?

[J-C]

Cool yer jets!

I am sure I read it somewhere see post #4

What is the real story then?

Below


No. What I’m saying is he was more than willing to go on loan. He didn’t specifically ask but he definitely didn’t refuse to go on loan.


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Thanks for that, I could never see him refusing to go on loan he's a good pro.

[calumhibee1]

It can’t be doing the reputation of the club any good never giving the youngsters a chance or developing good enough players since Porto? Hanlon 11 years ago? Stevenson 12 years ago? The last player we brought through to sell on was Fletcher and you’re looking at 2014 I think he came through. Serious questions need to be asked somewhere surely?

Fletcher? He broke through about 2004/2005?

[The 90+2]

Fletcher? He broke through about 2004/2005?

Yeah I meant 2004 😂

[The 90+2]

I think I remember that game. I remember mallan being key, but will take your word for it that Shaw changed things too.

I like Shaw. As I said, there would be space for him in a team with a different formation. He came on and looked lively towards the end of a game earlier this season.
I just don't think he'd be as effective as Doidge if we're playing 1 upfront.




Knock 10 years off that. (Might be a typo actually).

It's not a great endorsement of our academy though. Hopefully we can see Mackie, Murray, Shaw, and there's been a couple others on the cusp change that.

See above 😂👍

[BILLYHIBS]

Below



Thanks for that, I could never see him refusing to go on loan he's a good pro.

:aok:

Begs the next question why is Hecky no playing him then?

[J-C]

:aok:

Begs the next question why is Hecky no playing him then?

I personally think he's being stubborn and playing Newell from the bench as he's one of his signings, it's almost like he deliberately brings Newell on with 10 mins to go just to make sure he gives his mate his appearance money.

[green with envy]

:aok:

Begs the next question why is Hecky no playing him then?

It's a strange one. Plymouth Argyle had put in a bid for Ollie before the deadline, he was willing to go but Hibs were after more money.

[Nicho87]

Tin hat on. Other than the through ball last season to mcnulty I don’t get how so many people are hung up on Murray. Looks physically no where near ready to play 20 games a season never mind 38

[BILLYHIBS]

I personally think he's being stubborn and playing Newell from the bench as he's one of his signings, it's almost like he deliberately brings Newell on with 10 mins to go just to make sure he gives his mate his appearance money.

Exactly my thoughts but we can shelf any idea that it was because Hecky wanted Fraser to go out on loan and he is still here and he would rather play his duds before our up and coming young talent to prove a point even although it may ultimately lead to his dismissal

[The 90+2]

Tin hat on. Other than the through ball last season to mcnulty I don’t get how so many people are hung up on Murray. Looks physically no where near ready to play 20 games a season never mind 38

He’s a much better alternative than the bench. It would be giving him first team football and a weapon at set pieces too.

[Smartie]

Tin hat on. Other than the through ball last season to mcnulty I don’t get how so many people are hung up on Murray. Looks physically no where near ready to play 20 games a season never mind 38

I think you have a point. Murray has shown a wee bit of promise and the players in our team aren't exactly delivering at present but I don't think he's shown enough to have folk clamouring for his inclusion.

He's certainly not a guaranteed first pick and in all likelihood he'd come into the team, play ok on one match, dire the next and then be binned for the next ten.

[GoalsMcGinley]

Tin hat on. Other than the through ball last season to mcnulty I don’t get how so many people are hung up on Murray. Looks physically no where near ready to play 20 games a season never mind 38

Must’ve missed his assist for Doidge in the league cup groups?


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