Racist **** off our streets!!!

[Slavers]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/19/justin-trudeau-wearing-blackface-details-emerge-third-incident

Could you imagine if Donald Trump had been constantly blacking up his face for parties and social events!!?

Is the liberal demi-god Justin Trudeau using the liberal movement only to further his career in a lust for power and attention, is he using the liberal movement as a smoke screen to hide the fact he is rabid racist who is champing at the bit for an opportunity to wear the black face and mock people of color and minority groups?

Or is he just very silly?

[Cataplana]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/19/justin-trudeau-wearing-blackface-details-emerge-third-incident

Could you imagine if Donald Trump had been constantly blacking up his face for parties and social events!!?

Is the liberal demi-god Justin Trudeau using the liberal movement only to further his career in a lust for power and attention, is he using the liberal movement as a smoke screen to hide the fact he is rabid racist who is champing at the bit for an opportunity to wear the black face and mock people of color and minority groups?

Or is he just very silly?

I think the fact that his father was a Liberal prime minister might just have pointed him towards that party.

Blacking up is clearly a problematic area, and will extend to any actor who has played Othello. Personally, I think people seizing on it don't really know what racism actually is

I am open minded enough to be informed on this matter. Last time I blacked up it was to enter a fancy dress competition as an Indian mogul. I was 10.

[lapsedhibee]

Blacking up is clearly a problematic area, and will extend to any actor who has played Othello.
And Groucho Marx's upper lip.

[Bristolhibby]

Blacking up happened back in the day. It happens less so as people see how out of order it is.

Granny went to the “Pakis” for her messages. I go to the shop.

People have changed for the better.

J

[Smartie]

2001, 18 years ago.

I'm not sure what time "things changed" but there didn't used to be an outcry over blacking up.

If he did it during the modern era when it clearly causes offence to many people then I could understand the criticism but that seems an awful long time ago.

Is this really worth getting hot and bothered about? From memory I was a student around that time, plenty of dressing up was done and occasional blacking up that I don't recall causing great offence.

[Fife-Hibee]

2001, 18 years ago.

I'm not sure what time "things changed" but there didn't used to be an outcry over blacking up.

If he did it during the modern era when it clearly causes offence to many people then I could understand the criticism but that seems an awful long time ago.

Is this really worth getting hot and bothered about? From memory I was a student around that time, plenty of dressing up was done and occasional blacking up that I don't recall causing great offence.

I agree. I've known plenty of people from years gone by who used to do this sort of thing at fancy (and sometimes daft) dress up parties. None of them were ever considered 'racist' at the time and were doing it because they enjoyed mimicking certain cultures. Not out of racism, but because they actually had a fondness for those cultures.

For example, I knew someone who was a huge Bob Marley fan and was crazy about everything associated with rastafarian culture. So he used to dress up as such at these kind of events, which would include darkening the skin. Nobody considered him racist. If anything, he was considered an anti-racist. He wasn't trying to mock the culture, he just wanted to feel part of it.

[Ozyhibby]

Clear this bloke made a misjudgement in different times. His action since are way more important and he does not strike me as a racist.
Trump on the other hand?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CloudSquall]

What annoys me most is the mock outrage from the opposition etc that are just looking to score points from it.

I'm not a fan of Trudeau but it was 18 years ago and given his record I can't imagine there was any racist ideas behind it.

[Rocky]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/sep/19/justin-trudeau-wearing-blackface-details-emerge-third-incident

Could you imagine if Donald Trump had been constantly blacking up his face for parties and social events!!?

Is the liberal demi-god Justin Trudeau using the liberal movement only to further his career in a lust for power and attention, is he using the liberal movement as a smoke screen to hide the fact he is rabid racist who is champing at the bit for an opportunity to wear the black face and mock people of color and minority groups?

Or is he just very silly?

Are you actually trying to score a point for Donald Trump, the actual racist who calls people snowflakes for being too easily offended, by being offended by something from two decades ago which could just as easily be explained by naivety as racism?

[Slavers]

Are you actually trying to score a point for Donald Trump, the actual racist who calls people snowflakes for being too easily offended, by being offended by something from two decades ago which could just as easily be explained by naivety as racism?

No just wondering what people's thoughts are on this. The Trump comparison is because they are both world leaders but I suspect if Trump blacked up his face twenty years ago it would be used as a stick to beat him with.

I'm not so sure Justin was naive on this one, I'm pretty sure he knew it was racist when he blacked up, it wasn't done in the 70s.

Minorities are offended by this

[Rocky]

No just wondering what people's thoughts are on this. The Trump comparison is because they are both world leaders but I suspect if Trump blacked up his face twenty years ago it would be used as a stick to beat him with.

I'm not so sure Justin was naive on this one, I'm pretty sure he knew it was racist when he blacked up, it wasn't done in the 70s.

Minorities are offended by this

Fair dos, you must know more about it than me. Can you share the information you've used to reach the conclusion that he was being intentionally racist?

[Slavers]

Fair dos, you must know more about it than me. Can you share the information you've used to reach the conclusion that he was being intentionally racist?

I only have seen the pictures of him blacking up and wearing afro wigs. Seeing as it was done many times post the year 2000 then I think he knew it was racist but done it anyway.

[Fife-Hibee]

Minorities are offended by this

Unforunately, people who are offended by anything and everything these days are not a minority.

[Rocky]

I guess that makes me a rabid racist too then. I've never been inclined to "black up" but I'm sure if I'd had a black hero in 2000 it wouldn't have crossed my mind that it could be offensive to emulate them at a fancy dress party. It would now, and I'm glad I now understand the offence that it causes. But I guess I'll have to trust your judgment on whether that makes me a rabid racist, ignorant, naive or a product of my time.

[Bristolhibby]

I’ve been to fancy dress parties where one mate was Mr T.

He’s definately nor racist.

J

[HUTCHYHIBBY]

I’ve been to fancy dress parties where one mate was Mr T.

He’s definately nor racist.

J

Is that the guy that refuses to give you a lift to the airport? 😊

[Captain Trips]

I have seen on TV many many times perhaps somebody mimicking a French accent or the likes but if the mimicked an Indian accent then there would be outcry.

So if I want to go out to a fancy dress party as the Hulk nobody would think anything if made myself green, but if I wanted to go as Mr T and put in same effort to look like both I am being racist?

Personally I think the people with the issue are the ones seeing it that way and not in the context of what it is.

[Captain Trips]

I’ve been to fancy dress parties where one mate was Mr T.

He’s definately nor racist.

J

Was he offered a glass of milk?

[Cataplana]

I have seen on TV many many times perhaps somebody mimicking a French accent or the likes but if the mimicked an Indian accent then there would be outcry.

So if I want to go out to a fancy dress party as the Hulk nobody would think anything if made myself green, but if I wanted to go as Mr T and put in same effort to look like both I am being racist?

Personally I think the people with the issue are the ones seeing it that way and not in the context of what it is.

People say Michael Bates was being offensive in It Ain't Half Hot Mum, playing a Hindu character. He could actually speak Hindu and had spent many years living there.

[bigwheel]

I’ve been to fancy dress parties where one mate was Mr T.

He’s definately nor racist.

J

Blackface dates from a time where it was used when people of colour where denied basic rights, was used in minstrel shows to laugh , project as different people of colour

Over years, particularly since 2000s onwards there has built a more deeper understanding recognition of the impact on people of all races, of those who are blacking up their faces..so it’s not really about whether your mate is racist or not, it is about the effect it would have on those around them ...

[Captain Trips]

People say Michael Bates was being offensive in It Ain't Half Hot Mum, playing a Hindu character. He could actually speak Hindu and had spent many years living there.


The only "people" opinion if it were me I would be interested in is the ones I am portraying. I am not saying non Hindu people cannot find it offensive.

Put it this way if I was dressed again as Mr T was at a party and white person found it offensive I would not care. If at same event and black person found it offensive I would care.

[Cataplana]

The only "people" opinion if it were me I would be interested in is the ones I am portraying. I am not saying non Hindu people cannot find it offensive.

Put it this way if I was dressed again as Mr T was at a party and white person found it offensive I would not care. If at same event and black person found it offensive I would care.

That used to be the definition of racism, it was how it was perceived by the person on the receiving end.

Personally, I find things like Russ Abbot CU Jimmy quite funny, and a good piss take of other people's attitudes towards Scottish people.

Jim Davidson doing Winston would really piss me off if I was West Indian. So would Danny John-Jules in A Taste of Paradise.

Getting back to the point, if blacking up is an act of racism I'm against it, but it is far from fair to have a go at "historical" racism when people didn't know better.

But, the likes of Trudeau isn't helping by apologising. He either knew it was wrong, or didn't.

[Captain Trips]

That used to be the definition of racism, it was how it was perceived by the person on the receiving end.

Personally, I find things like Russ Abbot CU Jimmy quite funny, and a good piss take of other people's attitudes towards Scottish people.

Jim Davidson doing Winston would really piss me off if I was West Indian. So would Danny John-Jules in A Taste of Paradise.

Getting back to the point, if blacking up is an act of racism I'm against it, but it is far from fair to have a go at "historical" racism when people didn't know better.

But, the likes of Trudeau isn't helping by apologising. He either knew it was wrong, or didn't.

It depends why you do it. Going to a party for instance is not an act of racism. IMO. It can of course be seen that way though not for me.

[J-C]

Is the film White Chicks classed as racist? There was talk of making another one.

[bigwheel]

It depends why you do it. Going to a party for instance is not an act of racism. IMO. It can of course be seen that way though not for me.

I don’t know you buddy ...but if you are a white male, then you aren’t really in a place to be the judge ...people of colour , who have battled prejudices all their lives, are the ones to be listened to on issues like this

[Fife-Hibee]

I don’t know you buddy ...but if you are a white male, then you aren’t really in a place to be the judge ...people of colour , who have battled prejudices all their lives, are the ones to be listened to on issues like this

Who's judging? :dunno:

It doesn't appear to be black people making the biggest issue out of this. I doubt most people of black ethnicity even care if you go to a party done up as Mr T or Bob Marley. Why would they? You're only making a fool out of yourself by doing so, which is the whole point of these silly events.

[bigwheel]

Who's judging? :dunno:

It doesn't appear to be black people making the biggest issue out of this. I doubt most people of black ethnicity even care if you go to a party done up as Mr T or Bob Marley. Why would they? You're only making a fool out of yourself by doing so, which is the whole point of these silly events.

“blackface” comes from a time of inequality and disrespect...I think it would often be seen as offensive today ...if you’re suggesting otherwise, then I respectfully disagree

[Fife-Hibee]

“blackface” comes from a time of inequality and disrespect...I think it would often be seen as offensive today ...if you’re suggesting otherwise, then I respectfully disagree

That's fair enough. But a lot of things come from a time of inequality and disrespect that we still use today. It always amuses me when somebody points the finger at others for percieved racism while wearing their sweatshop bangladeshi adidas trainers.

[bigwheel]

That's fair enough. But a lot of things come from a time of inequality and disrespect that we still use today. It always amuses me when somebody points the finger at others for percieved racism while wearing their sweatshop bangladeshi adidas trainers.

How about empathy and exploring their racism concerns...??

You can always help them reflect on their trainers choice afterwards ....

[Moulin Yarns]

I tend to keep out of these kind of debates, but earlier this year the issue of racism and Bipoc in the craft community I inhabit was raised by a white male designer of privilege, in the most awful way.

I know a lot of people in the community who found it disgraceful and some spoke out about it. Here is a blog by someone I know.

https://www.hilltopcloud.co.uk/blog/its-never-been-just-about-the-spinning#

[Cataplana]

How about empathy and exploring their racism concerns...??

You can always help them reflect on their trainers choice afterwards ....

I am genuinely interested, why was this not the same issue 20 years ago as it is now? And, who speaks for people of colour?

I recently saw a programme where Trevor Phillips said the CRE got it all wrong in the 90s, and wonder how strategies evolve.

I developed a training programme on the back of the current thinking at the time. It bothers me that I was helping to put out the wrong message.

In Trudeau's case, I find the way political opponents have jumped on his back to capitalise on his error more distasteful than him blacking up.

[Rocky]

That's fair enough. But a lot of things come from a time of inequality and disrespect that we still use today. It always amuses me when somebody points the finger at others for percieved racism while wearing their sweatshop bangladeshi adidas trainers.

The fact that race and poverty are conflated in your mind says a lot

[lapsedhibee]

I tend to keep out of these kind of debates, but earlier this year the issue of racism and Bipoc in the craft community I inhabit was raised by a white male designer of privilege, in the most awful way.

I know a lot of people in the community who found it disgraceful and some spoke out about it. Here is a blog by someone I know.

https://www.hilltopcloud.co.uk/blog/its-never-been-just-about-the-spinning#

Safe to say that when I woke up this morning I had no idea that by teatime I would have learned there was such a thing as a white supremacist knitter.

[Cataplana]

The fact that race and poverty are conflated in your mind says a lot

Is it not true?

[Fife-Hibee]

The fact that race and poverty are conflated in your mind says a lot

Because the statistics clearly state otherwise?

[brianmc]

I thought the phrase "people of colour" as used above by a few posters is now considered racist??

The only positive from this whole ****storm is that Lenny Henry FINALLY said something funny!

[bigwheel]

I am genuinely interested, why was this not the same issue 20 years ago as it is now? And, who speaks for people of colour?

I recently saw a programme where Trevor Phillips said the CRE got it all wrong in the 90s, and wonder how strategies evolve.

I developed a training programme on the back of the current thinking at the time. It bothers me that I was helping to put out the wrong message.

In Trudeau's case, I find the way political opponents have jumped on his back to capitalise on his error more distasteful than him blacking up.

It’s a good question - perhaps people who have suffered prejudice have a stronger voice now and over the last couple of decades? Also, I suspect most people are more sensitive to the impact and issues than they used to be ...

[lapsedhibee]

I thought the phrase "people of colour" as used above by a few posters is now considered racist??



Think 'people of colour' is U and 'coloured people' is non-U.

[Cataplana]

It’s a good question - perhaps people who have suffered prejudice have a stronger voice now and over the last couple of decades? Also, I suspect most people are more sensitive to the impact and issues than they used to be ...

I hear what you are saying, but I also suspect that having done the big stuff, some people are starting to chip away at the minutae.

Billy Bragg said when we were standing to racism in the 70s, it wasn't about protecting our multi cultural society, it was about stopping repatriation.

I sometimes think problems are created because people might be offended, rather than actually asking anybody's views

[Rocky]

Is it not true?

No, it's certainly not true that they're the same thing. They are of course strongly correlated, but to suggest that you can't call out racist behaviour without simultaneously addressing wealth inequality is rather unhelpful.

[bigwheel]

I hear what you are saying, but I also suspect that having done the big stuff, some people are starting to chip away at the minutae.

Billy Bragg said when we were standing to racism in the 70s, it wasn't about protecting our multi cultural society, it was about stopping repatriation.

I sometimes think problems are created because people might be offended, rather than actually asking anybody's views

I can’t disagree with the spirit of your post - other than add that it is the voice of the minorities and those who suffer prejudice who should define the boundaries ...those groups can let us understand what hurts and impacts and what doesn’t ...

[Fife-Hibee]

I can’t disagree with the spirit of your post - other than add that it is the voice of the minority’s and those who suffer prejudice who should define the boundaries ...those groups can let us understand what hurts and impacts and what doesn’t ...

We live in a world now where everybody feels marginalized. People have been taught to feel offended over things that they wouldn't have previously cared a jot about.

Just ask yourself this simple logical question. What has somebody dressing up as someone (who just happens to be black) at a silly dress up party got in connection with a history of racial slavery and discrimination?

You said those who suffer prejudice should be allowed to define the boundaries. But what if everybody feels like they're suffering from some form of prejudice and all of these different boundaries end up getting pushed to a point where nobody can do anything anymore out of the fear of offending someone?

[Moulin Yarns]

Safe to say that when I woke up this morning I had no idea that by teatime I would have learned there was such a thing as a white supremacist knitter.

Not so much white supremacist knitter as white gay knitter who objected to #diversknity, a phrase he coined, being used for other minorities.

As a straight male knitter I think I am in a minority. 😉

[Cataplana]

I can’t disagree with the spirit of your post - other than add that it is the voice of the minorities and those who suffer prejudice who should define the boundaries ...those groups can let us understand what hurts and impacts and what doesn’t ...

No argument here.

[Bristolhibby]

Is the film White Chicks classed as racist? There was take of making another one.

Also Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder.

https://akns-images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2014224/rs_606x606-140324130043-600-robert-downey-jr-tropic-thunder-nick-cannon.ls.32414.jpg

[brianmc]

Think 'people of colour' is U and 'coloured people' is non-U.

Ahhh....... Thanks for that.

*Though I expect this will all change in the near future.


In case anyone missed the Lenny Henry reference - Mr Henry walked on stage at an awards thingy on Thursday night(I think) and opened with the words "Good evening, I'm Justin Trudeau".

[bigwheel]

We live in a world now where everybody feels marginalized. People have been taught to feel offended over things that they wouldn't have previously cared a jot about.

Just ask yourself this simple logical question. What has somebody dressing up as someone (who just happens to be black) at a silly dress up party got in connection with a history of racial slavery and discrimination?

You said those who suffer prejudice should be allowed to define the boundaries. But what if everybody feels like they're suffering from some form of prejudice and all of these different boundaries end up getting pushed to a point where nobody can do anything anymore out of the fear of offending someone?

Tbh. I suspect my view on this is not really helpful for you -


ask some of your black friends and/or colleagues what they think of “blackface” and racial prejudice today .

[weecounty hibby]

Ahhh....... Thanks for that.

*Though I expect this will all change in the near future.


In case anyone missed the Lenny Henry reference - Mr Henry walked on stage at an awards thingy on Thursday night(I think) and opened with the words "Good evening, I'm Justin Trudeau".
That is decent for him. He is the least funny funnyman ever to have been paid as a comedian! Has been getting away with it for 40+ years as well.
I have nothing else to add to this debate as it is hugely complex and anything that you say on the matter gets pounded upon. My views on Lenny Henry being rubbish are not based anyway on race or skin colour!!

[Fife-Hibee]

Tbh. I suspect my view on this is not really helpful for you -


ask some of your black friends and/or colleagues what they think of “blackface” and racial prejudice today .

I already have and even although they (like myself) take a strong stance against real actual racism. They couldn't care less if a white person turns up as Lionel Richie at some dress up party somewhere, as they realize it has no impact on their life or the lives of others whatsoever.

[bigwheel]

I already have and even although they (like myself) take a strong stance against real actual racism. They couldn't care less if a white person turns up as Lionel Richie at some dress up party somewhere, as they realize it has no impact on their life or the lives of others whatsoever.

they seem to share the same views as yourself.....did you get any differing views ?

[Fife-Hibee]

they seem to share the same views as yourself.....did you get any differing views ?

Yes, but only from white people who think they speak for black minorities.

[J-C]

Also Robert Downey Jr in Tropic Thunder.

https://akns-images.eonline.com/eol_images/Entire_Site/2014224/rs_606x606-140324130043-600-robert-downey-jr-tropic-thunder-nick-cannon.ls.32414.jpg

Yea, forgot about that one.

[bigwheel]

Yes, but only from white people who think they speak for black minorities.

Jesus....convo closed from this side

[Captain Trips]

I don’t know you buddy ...but if you are a white male, then you aren’t really in a place to be the judge ...people of colour , who have battled prejudices all their lives, are the ones to be listened to on issues like this

Well nor are you to judge if some people born in 90s and later feel the same as those born in 60s and 70s.