Scotland v Russia

[Heisenberg]

Did Kris Boyd actually say “that’s not a good Russia side”? World Cup quarter finalists but they’re no very good according to big Boydy.

[Hermit Crab]

Did Kris Boyd actually say “that’s not a good Russia side”? World Cup quarter finalists but they’re no very good according to big Boydy.


Heard that too, what does say about that Scotland team though!!!

[whiskyhibby]

He had a 30% win ratio record at WBA and Reading.

He’s over rated also and the cheap option.

Doesn’t matter who the manager is though with the SFA and the lack of players we will continue to struggle.

Completely agree the Scottish game and the SFA needs a complete overhaul, starting with getting rid of the the Old Firm,they poison everything in the Scottish game


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[Hibbyradge]

He had a 30% win ratio record at WBA and Reading.

He’s over rated also and the cheap option.

Doesn’t matter who the manager is though with the SFA and the lack of players we will continue to struggle.

Who was the expensive option that would have been better?

[hfc rd]

He had a 30% win ratio record at WBA and Reading.

He’s over rated also and the cheap option.

Doesn’t matter who the manager is though with the SFA and the lack of players we will continue to struggle.


Manager can only do with the players at his disposal. The fact of the matter is we are not good enough.

The major change that is needed is at the the top of our game.

[GreenCastle]

Who was the expensive option that would have been better?

Michael O’Neil ?

Failed previously to get him.

Doesn’t matter they could have Pep and they would still be awful. Fans not turning up shows what folk think of the SFA.

[whiskyhibby]

Who was the expensive option that would have been better?

Someone who isn’t Scottish, how about any winning Head coach from a European league for a start


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[Viva_Palmeiras]

He had a 30% win ratio record at WBA and Reading.

He’s over rated also and the cheap option.

Doesn’t matter who the manager is though with the SFA and the lack of players we will continue to struggle.

Cant imagine Der Terrier was a cheap option nor a good one. This cheap option talk is oversimplified.

[GreenCastle]

Manager can only do with the players at his disposal. The fact of the matter is we are not good enough.

The major change that is needed is at the the top of our game.

Yup - SFA needs disbanded. Simple.

Restart and grow something the fans can support.

[whiskyhibby]

There has to be better options than McBurnie and O’donnell.

Agree , ODonnell is an embarrassment at this level


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[pacoluna]

Who thinks Scott Allan could get in that team? :dunno:

Scotland's problem is off the ball, Scott Allan would be lost in that Scotland team.

[GreenCastle]

Cant imagine Der Terrier was a cheap option nor a good one. This cheap option talk is oversimplified.

It was minimal risk - fans and media wanted him and he was easy to get.

[Heisenberg]

Badly need a good quality right back and central defender to appear from somewhere. Striker too if we’re being greedy.

[MWHIBBIES]

McTominay is the new Darren Fletcher. Said it for ages.
Similar style, tall, makes a tackle, but is he going to kick on?

Surprised hes a first pick for Man U.There is no comparison really, Fletcher was a top player for years, winning maybe titles.


He had a 30% win ratio record at WBA and Reading.

He’s over rated also and the cheap option.

Doesn’t matter who the manager is though with the SFA and the lack of players we will continue to struggle.

Didn't he take West Brom to 7th/8th? That is excellent.

He is a very good manager, the best in Scotland last year so rightfully appointed to the big job.

[Liam6270]

Wow McBurnie is brutal, he actually cost Sheff United 20million pounds!

Just say that over again in your head, Oli McBurnie cost 20million quid, he has to be one the most god awful players I’ve ever seen

[GreenCastle]

Scotland's problem is off the ball, Scott Allan would be lost in that Scotland team.

SFA and the muppets running the game is the main issue.

[whiskyhibby]

Yup - SFA needs disbanded. Simple.

Restart and grow something the fans can support.

The manager has the right to call up any player who qualifies, on that respect he has a far greater pool than most league managers, how the **** he can pick ODonell is therefore beyond me


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[bingo70]

Scotland's problem is off the ball, Scott Allan would be lost in that Scotland team.

Was it though?

With the exception of O’Donnell wandering about 70 meters from our goal before their second I thought our problem was on the ball in that we were absolutely ***** with it.

I don’t think Scott Allan would have made any difference but I don’t think our problem was off the ball.

[SRHibs]

20 million for McBurnie in England. Not really a surprise that we have a 300k dud when you see what money actually buys you.

[GreenCastle]

There is no comparison really, Fletcher was a top player for years, winning maybe titles.



Didn't he take West Brom to 7th/8th? That is excellent.

He is a very good manager, the best in Scotland last year so rightfully appointed to the big job.

Finished 8th and then was sacked when 2nd bottom.

30% win ratio isn’t great.

Plus Reading mess.

Did well with Killie and not saying he’s the worst appointment but it was a low risk appointment.

Like I said even Pep couldn’t qualify here especially with limited time to work with players who are bang average on the world stage.

[Viva_Palmeiras]

He had a 30% win ratio record at WBA and Reading.

He’s over rated also and the cheap option.

Doesn’t matter who the manager is though with the SFA and the lack of players we will continue to struggle.

Cant imagine Der Terrier was not a cheap option nor a good one. This cheap option talk is oversimplified.

[hfc rd]

Steve Clarke is not the problem. Far from it! We could have Guardiola in charge and do you honestly think we will begin to play like his Man City team? The answer is simply not a ******g chance!

The main problem that is hindering our game and where the main brunt of the blame should lie directly towards is the SFA. Our game needs a major shakeup from the top.

[we are hibs]

The problem is the whole thing needs ripped up. From the top of the SFA right down to grassroots. But no one has the balls to do it.

[whiskyhibby]

Steve Clarke is not the problem. Far from it! We could have Guardiola in charge and do you honestly think we will begin to play like his Man City team? The answer is simply not a ******g chance!

The main problem that is hindering our game and where the main brunt of the blame should lie directly towards is the SFA. Our game needs a major shakeup from the top.

Completely agree the Old Firm obsessed SFA are holding the Scottish game back and need to be disbanded, we need completely new thinking


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[SRHibs]

Steve Clarke is not the problem. Far from it! We could have Guardiola in charge and do you honestly think we will begin to play like his Man City team? The answer is simply not a ******g chance!

The main problem that is hindering our game and where the main brunt of the blame should lie directly towards is the SFA. Our game needs a major shakeup from the top.

What does this even mean though? There are a lot of good players in that team. If the manager is setting the team up not to utilise our quality then how is that the SFA's fault?

[A Hi-Bee]

Badly need a good quality right back and central defender to appear from somewhere. Striker too if we’re being greedy.

Badly need a decent team, that was turgid, but has been for years now an no gonna change anytime soon, just not worth watching.

[A Hi-Bee]

Completely agree the Old Firm obsessed SFA are holding the Scottish game back and need to be disbanded, we need completely new thinking


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Rod will fix it................SFA

[whiskyhibby]

Rod will fix it................SFA

I doubt it somehow.......


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[GreenCastle]

The problem is the whole thing needs ripped up. From the top of the SFA right down to grassroots. But no one has the balls to do it.

Yup and it’s the same chat every time we play an international.

Sad as Scotland has some great football fans and deserves better.

[whiskyhibby]

What does this even mean though? There are a lot of good players in that team. If the manager is setting the team up not to utilise our quality then how is that the SFA's fault?

Because the Scottish game is in the ****ter European wise, compared to other nations we are not producing players at a decent level, this is the remit of the SFA and is hampered by their single focus on the Old Firm


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[supermcginn]

He had a 30% win ratio record at WBA and Reading.

He’s over rated also and the cheap option.

Doesn’t matter who the manager is though with the SFA and the lack of players we will continue to struggle.
What a load of guff. Guy is top drawer

[supermcginn]

Completely agree the Old Firm obsessed SFA are holding the Scottish game back and need to be disbanded, we need completely new thinking


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If Clarke was hibs manager we would be a million times better off. The guy is in a different league to Heckingbottom..

[whiskyhibby]

If Clarke was hibs manager we would be a million times better off. The guy is in a different league to Heckingbottom..

I think Clarke would be a great Hibs Manager, but not a good Scotland Manager


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[bingo70]

Because the Scottish game is in the ****ter European wise, compared to other nations we are not producing players at a decent level, this is the remit of the SFA and is hampered by their single focus on the Old Firm


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Loads of that Scotland team play at a good level.

I just think we’re not really brought up to play football, there’s no philosophy, it’s just a case of hoping we can throw 11 players out there with defenders that’ll play like bravehearts by diving in everywhere, midfielders to be tenacious and hopefully a forward will score a goal out of nothing.

It’s all just quite *****.

[wallpaperman]

Badly need a decent team, that was turgid, but has been for years now an no gonna change anytime soon, just not worth watching.

I also find Scotland almost impossible to watch.

Watched the Croatia game as we have an affinity with the country having visited a few times over recent years, they were an absolute joy to watch tonight, could easily have been 7 or 8 nil in Slovakia.

[whiskyhibby]

Loads of that Scotland team play at a good level.

I just think we’re not really brought up to play football, there’s no philosophy, it’s just a case of hoping we can throw 11 players out there with defenders that’ll play like bravehearts by diving in everywhere, midfielders to be tenacious and hopefully a forward will score a goal out of nothing.

It’s all just quite *****.

That actually quite a good point, it’s qualities of the players that are produced rather than where they play, Scotland doesn’t produce the range of players to give a good blend is perhaps the issue....


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[GreenCastle]

What a load of guff. Guy is top drawer

If he’s top drawer what are Pep and Klopp ?

Clarke wouldn’t make the current top 100 managers in the world list.

I would take him at Hibs over Hecky though as I think he can do the basics in the Scottish league.

Anyway like I said doesn’t matter the manager the game needs fixed. Compare to Scottish Rugby who have been through a bad spell / cycle and are competing again.

Football in Scotland is stuck in its ways and doesn’t want to change.

[whiskyhibby]

Loads of that Scotland team play at a good level.

I just think we’re not really brought up to play football, there’s no philosophy, it’s just a case of hoping we can throw 11 players out there with defenders that’ll play like bravehearts by diving in everywhere, midfielders to be tenacious and hopefully a forward will score a goal out of nothing.

It’s all just quite *****.

I think the problem might be picking players at a poor level to supplement the super stars playing in the EPL, ODonnell is playing at Killie and can’t even get a game at EFL league 2 ( as I’m guessing Killie aren’t paying him £10k per week)


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[madhatter]

We need to write off a tournament and play the youngest meaningful team possibly. Mulgrew, Naismith and players like that should be finished. Sort of hoped we had a manager brave enough to do that. We’ll never change while focus is solely on old firm and teams don’t give youngsters a chance. Bates, Souttar, McKenna and Porteous should be the 4 immediate CBs we are working with.

Sad as it is, we need to drop all players 30+ now. Youngsters need to be exposed to this level of football earlier on. Zhirkov gets to 90 caps, how many Scottish players get close to that?

[whiskyhibby]

We need to write off a tournament and play the youngest meaningful team possibly. Mulgrew, Naismith and players like that should be finished. Sort of hoped we had a manager brave enough to do that. We’ll never change while focus is solely on old firm and teams don’t give youngsters a chance. Bates, Souttar, McKenna and Porteous should be the 4 immediate CBs we are working with.

Sad as it is, we need to drop all players 30+ now. Youngsters need to be exposed to this level of football earlier on. Zhirkov gets to 90 caps, how many Scottish players get close to that?

Well said, couldn’t agree more


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[bingo70]

I think the problem might be picking players at a poor level to supplement the super stars playing in the EPL, ODonnell is playing at Killie and can’t even get a game at EFL league 2 ( as I’m guessing Killie aren’t paying him £10k per week)


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Oli McBurnie is in the EPL and he’s certainly no super star.

I know the point is being laboured here a bit but £20m? Absolutely incredible, if I woke up tomorrow to find Hibs had done a swap deal for him and Kamberi I’d be gutted. If McTominay didn’t come through the youth set up at Man united and they weren’t desperate to try and implement a British core to their team he’d be at Coventry or Portsmouth, he’s pish.

If Stephen O’Donnell is genuinely our only option at right back we’re as well just calling it a day now.

[Sylar]

I had a great night at Murrayfield tonight watching a Scotland team canter to a win against a side who would probably hammer us on a football pitch.

The SRU realised how bad our rugby system was in Scotland and did something about it. We now have a decent league structure, two decent professional teams and a national side that can at least compete with the best nations in the world.

The SFA need to do the same - the manager merry-go-round isn't going to change it. We can't wait on "the next crop of promising youngsters". As someone above said, it needs ripped to pieces from top to bottom, but nobody who can, cares enough to do anything. Begs the question why any of us should care...

[Smartie]

We need to write off a tournament and play the youngest meaningful team possibly. Mulgrew, Naismith and players like that should be finished. Sort of hoped we had a manager brave enough to do that. We’ll never change while focus is solely on old firm and teams don’t give youngsters a chance. Bates, Souttar, McKenna and Porteous should be the 4 immediate CBs we are working with.

Sad as it is, we need to drop all players 30+ now. Youngsters need to be exposed to this level of football earlier on. Zhirkov gets to 90 caps, how many Scottish players get close to that?

I get what you're saying, but we're only a few months from a competition that could see us qualify for a major tourney. Mulgrew was about as good as we had tonight. If players emerge on the club stage they should get an opportunity but not just be played because they're young.

Zhirkov is still playing at 36 because he's still contributing.

As poor as that was in places I don't think we're miles off.

[whiskyhibby]

I had a great night at Murrayfield tonight watching a Scotland team canter to a win against a side who would probably hammer us on a football pitch.

The SRU realised how bad our rugby system was in Scotland and did something about it. We now have a decent league structure, two decent professional teams and a national side that can at least compete with the best nations in the world.

The SFA need to do the same - the manager merry-go-round isn't going to change it. We can't wait on "the next crop of promising youngsters". As someone above said, it needs ripped to pieces from top to bottom, but nobody who can, cares enough to do anything. Begs the question why any of us should care...

Spot on !


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[GreenCastle]

I had a great night at Murrayfield tonight watching a Scotland team canter to a win against a side who would probably hammer us on a football pitch.

The SRU realised how bad our rugby system was in Scotland and did something about it. We now have a decent league structure, two decent professional teams and a national side that can at least compete with the best nations in the world.

The SFA need to do the same - the manager merry-go-round isn't going to change it. We can't wait on "the next crop of promising youngsters". As someone above said, it needs ripped to pieces from top to bottom, but nobody who can, cares enough to do anything. Begs the question why any of us should care...

Agreed.

Lots of fans are losing interest sadly and many are also watching rugby over football at club and international level but SFA seem to be untouchable and oblivious.

[madhatter]

I actually think we bottled it. Sort of how Hibs are playing at the moment. Scottish players panic far too much under a standard press. Just shield the ball with your body ffs. Getting the ball from the CBs was embarrassingly so similar to Hibs. I replaced McTominay with Mallan in my mind. There is a certain way to drop deep to get the ball, the way they both do it essentially says “press us”. They are not side on and tend to be in a light jog. The spacing between the players made a press so easy as well.

[hfc rd]

I had a great night at Murrayfield tonight watching a Scotland team canter to a win against a side who would probably hammer us on a football pitch.

The SRU realised how bad our rugby system was in Scotland and did something about it. We now have a decent league structure, two decent professional teams and a national side that can at least compete with the best nations in the world.

The SFA need to do the same - the manager merry-go-round isn't going to change it. We can't wait on "the next crop of promising youngsters". As someone above said, it needs ripped to pieces from top to bottom, but nobody who can, cares enough to do anything. Begs the question why any of us should care...

Couldn’t agree more. The whole thing needs ripped up but the sad part is, the SFA are too stubborn to do that.

Was at the rugby too tonight and enjoyed it. Good to see Scotland do well in something.

[Willis1875]

Is there an issue with passion in the squad? Most of the squad is made up of Celtic or Rangers players or Celtic or Rangers supporters. Most Celtic and Rangers supporters I know don't really give two hoots about Scotland and are far more invested in Ireland and England. I know it probably sounds ridiculous but just a thought

[Hibeesmad]

Same **** different day for Scotland

[#2 Double Tap]

the anxiety in the crowd caused it, we was 1-0 up and the players started to feel and be effected by the anxiety of the stadium.........if the scotland fans hadda gotten right behind the team and happy clapped while russia pressed us high up the park and dominated possession we would have won the game.

[whiskyhibby]

the anxiety in the crowd caused it, we was 1-0 up and the players started to feel and be effected by the anxiety of the stadium.........if the scotland fans hadda gotten right behind the team and happy clapped while russia pressed us high up the park and dominated possession we would have won the game.

Oh dear.............


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[Hibeesmad]

Is there an issue with passion in the squad? Most of the squad is made up of Celtic or Rangers players or Celtic or Rangers supporters. Most Celtic and Rangers supporters I know don't really give two hoots about Scotland and are far more invested in Ireland and England. I know it probably sounds ridiculous but just a thought

I think Scotland are just lacking one or two players who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and be the difference in games. Bale stepped up for Wales when it mattered again tonight.

[madhatter]

I get what you're saying, but we're only a few months from a competition that could see us qualify for a major tourney. Mulgrew was about as good as we had tonight. If players emerge on the club stage they should get an opportunity but not just be played because they're young.

Zhirkov is still playing at 36 because he's still contributing.

As poor as that was in places I don't think we're miles off.

If we are continually trying to qualify for this or the next thing, when do youngsters get a chance? We should know first hand, how many caps does Riordan have? I mean, Whittaker was asked last season if he’d answer a call up. We cling on to our experienced players as if they were Ronaldo, Zidane, Desailly...France had a crash after their players retired and are recovering now. We are a tiny country so unless we start anew eventually, you’ll always be chasing after the impossible.

We play Miller into his 30s, I remember we talked about Rhodes being the next big thing, how many caps does he have and what age is he now?

We just limp from failure to players retiring and back to failure. McGinn is approaching mid 20s and he has less than 10 caps, that’s a farce.

[Hibeesmad]

the anxiety in the crowd caused it, we was 1-0 up and the players started to feel and be effected by the anxiety of the stadium.........if the scotland fans hadda gotten right behind the team and happy clapped while russia pressed us high up the park and dominated possession we would have won the game.

Hecky is that you

[#2 Double Tap]

Hecky is that you

shows just how much of a ridiculous statement that was.

i gotta stop posting after a bevvy

[madhatter]

I think Scotland are just lacking one or two players who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and be the difference in games. Bale stepped up for Wales when it mattered again tonight.

Problem goes much further than that. Our players are technically very poor. Very one footed and always have a physical weakness. We have a fast player who is 5 ft 6 or we have a 6 ft 3 player who can barely move.

If you watch, every time a Scottish player had a opponent 5 yards from them, they’d naturally turned backwards to look for a pass. Even if that pass was to a teammate that had a tighter marker.

Russia could have easily scored 2 more goals and beyond the first 15mins, we pretty much had 0 meaningful possession.

Scottish football is shocking. We need to restructure and put more funds into youth development. We’d benefit in introducing a 5 youth prospects in squad for games rule for league games.

From a Hibs perspective, we should be doing better at developing talent. We should have 1 reasonable talent each year who can join the senior squad and we don’t have that. More often than not we just release players.

[CMurdoch]

Logic

Not the managers fault
Not the SFA's fault

Scotland has a population of 5 million
Russia has a population of 150 million

5 million people doesn't produce enough quality players for all positions to compete effectively against large nations unless you are very lucky.
If Kieran Tierney was a left back and a few of our multitude of midfielders were centre backs or strikers we would have a chance. Perhaps that's were the luck comes in.
Croatia are the only country in modern times that has ever consistently bucked the population numbers.

As for those rating the Scottish Rugby Union team. It is a minority sport which with the exception of France is only played seriously by countries of the old British Empire.
The only countries who take the game seriously that have a population significantly bigger than Scotland are Australia, South Africa, England and France.
Therefore Scotland should always be one of the best teams in the world. I suspect they are ranked about 8th so not punching any better than the football team. Basically we can be hopeless and still be in the World Top 10.

[madhatter]

Scotland has a population of 5 million
Russia has a population of 150 million

5 million people doesn't produce enough quality players to unless you are very lucky.
If Kieran Tierney was a left back and a few of our multitude of midfielders were centre backs or strikers we would have a chance. Perhaps that's where the luck comes in.
Croatia are the only country in modern times that has ever consistently bucked the population numbers.

As for those rating the Scottish Rugby Union team. It is a minority sport which with the exception of France is only played seriously by countries of the old British Empire.
The only countries who take the game seriously that have a population significantly bigger than Scotland are Australia, South Africa, England and France.
Therefore Scotland should always be one of the best teams in the world. I suspect they are about 8th so not punching any better than the football team.
Of course we have a high world rating in Rugby Union. We can be hopeless and still be top 10.

Iceland?

We could, and should, be doing better.

[Weegreenman]

Iceland?

We could, and should, be doing better.

The Russians played a high press when out of possession, they executed this brilliantly ( Hecky take note )

When in possession they played crisp passing at pace with plenty of movement. A real match for any team I’d say.

Scotland done ok but it was a total mismatch for me. They looked fitter, faster, hungrier, more skilful, powerful and definitely more clinical.

[supermcginn]

I think Clarke would be a great Hibs Manager, but not a good Scotland Manager


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Why?

[CMurdoch]

Iceland?

We could, and should, be doing better.

That's why i said consistently.
IMO Iceland are going to drop away soon.
They had a golden generation but it is all but over

[Hibeesmad]

Scotland has a population of 5 million
Russia has a population of 150 million

5 million people doesn't produce enough quality players for all positions to compete effectively against large nations unless you are very lucky.
If Kieran Tierney was a left back and a few of our multitude of midfielders were centre backs or strikers we would have a chance.
Croatia are the only country in modern times that has ever consistently bucked the population numbers.

As for those rating the Scottish Rugby Union team. It is a minority sport which with the exception of France is only played seriously by countries of the old British Empire.
The only countries who take the game seriously that have a population significantly bigger than Scotland are Australia, South Africa, England and France.
Therefore Scotland should always be one of the best teams in the world. I suspect they are ranked about 8th so not punching any better than the football team. Basically we can be hopeless and still be in the World Top 10.

Wales have a population of about 3 million and beat Russia 3-0 on the road to the semi finals of the Euro's 3 years ago. Most of that journey was down to the team spirit within the squad. Maybe Scotland could benefit with a Gary Speed type figure who had gone into Wales and changed the structure in place to lead to where they are today. Harry Wilson, Daniel James and Ethan Ampadu are some of the talent coming through now who are playing at the top level.

Hopefully Clarke can have a big impact on the way things are done through the football structure in Scotland, it wont happen over night but it can be done.

[supermcginn]

If he’s top drawer what are Pep and Klopp ?

Clarke wouldn’t make the current top 100 managers in the world list.

I would take him at Hibs over Hecky though as I think he can do the basics in the Scottish league.

Anyway like I said doesn’t matter the manager the game needs fixed. Compare to Scottish Rugby who have been through a bad spell / cycle and are competing again.

Football in Scotland is stuck in its ways and doesn’t want to change.

Clarke has actually won the premier league and more than once. Honestly gobsmacked folk are slating him the players are poor.

[CMurdoch]

Anyway like I said doesn’t matter the manager the game needs fixed. Compare to Scottish Rugby who have been through a bad spell / cycle and are competing again.

Football in Scotland is stuck in its ways and doesn’t want to change.

Ok, lets compare with Scottish Rugby

Rugby Union is a minority sport which with the exception of France is only played seriously by countries of the old British Empire.
The only countries who take the game seriously that have a population significantly bigger than Scotland are Australia, South Africa, England and France.
Therefore Scotland should always be one of the best teams in the world. I suspect they are ranked about 8th so not really punching any better than the football team.

[madhatter]

That's why i said consistently.
IMO Iceland are going to drop away soon.
They had a golden generation but it is all but over

Don’t think it was a golden generation really. They just got more out of their players. We had a golden generation and Brown has the most caps out of them and he only has 50-60 caps. Aron Gunnarsson has 30 caps more and is younger.

We start playing our youth too late. England have the same habit as us. They talk about Maguire, Lingard and players like that as if they were youngsters. They are mid 20s with 20-30 caps. In contrast, Pogba is 26 and has 70 caps.

[CMurdoch]

Wales have a population of about 3 million and beat Russia 3-0 on the road to the semi finals of the Euro's 3 years ago. Most of that journey was down to the team spirit within the squad. Maybe Scotland could benefit with a Gary Speed type figure who had gone into Wales and changed the structure in place to lead to where they are today. Harry Wilson, Daniel James and Ethan Ampadu are some of the talent coming through now who are playing at the top level.

Hopefully Clarke can have a big impact on the way things are done through the football structure in Scotland, it wont happen over night but it can be done.

Wales have been pulled out the crap endlessly by Gareth Bale.
A game changing world class player like that makes all the difference to a small nation.
Into his 30's now.
As good as Wilson (love his free kicks), James & Ampadu are it is doubtful they will come close to the level of Bale.

[B.H.F.C]

The ‘good’ players were the problem tonight IMO.

Robertson, dreadful. McGregor, dreadful. Forrest, non existent. Fraser, non existent.

There are player like O’Donnell that are miles off it but the good players should be dragging them along.

As an aside, it’s a bit like Hibs. Persisting with a system that isn’t working. Try something different.

[madhatter]

Wales have been pulled out the crap endlessly by Gareth Bale.
A game changing world class player like that makes all the difference to a small nation.
Into his 30's now. As good as Wilson (love his free kicks), James & Ampadu are it is doubtful they will come close to the level of Bale.

Bale isn’t world class. He is good but not in same league as many players. He’s been rubbish in all but 3 games I’ve watched him in for Real Madrid. I cannot comment fully but I’d guess Real Madrid fans wouldn’t classify him as world class. Zidane, Ronaldo(s), Pirlo, Messi, Pele, Maradona...list could go on, he’s not in their league.

[CMurdoch]

Don’t think it was a golden generation really. They just got more out of their players. We had a golden generation and Brown has the most caps out of them and he only has 50-60 caps. Aron Gunnarsson has 30 caps more and is younger.

We start playing our youth too late. England have the same habit as us. They talk about Maguire, Lingard and players like that as if they were youngsters. They are mid 20s with 20-30 caps. In contrast, Pogba is 26 and has 70 caps.

Gylfi Sigurdsson will be 30 on Monday.
I predict that when he retires Iceland will sink like a stone

[supermcginn]

Bale isn’t world class. He is good but not in same league as many players. He’s been rubbish in all but 3 games I’ve watched him in for Real Madrid. I cannot comment fully but I’d guess Real Madrid fans wouldn’t classify him as world class. Zidane, Ronaldo(s), Pirlo, Messi, Pele, Maradona...list could go on, he’s not in their league.
I hate real madrid but that's nonsense. Scored more goals for madrid than the Brazilian ronaldo and look at his record in champions and copa del Rey finals.
Pirlo for one would love his amount of champions league medals.

[CMurdoch]

Bale isn’t world class. He is good but not in same league as many players. He’s been rubbish in all but 3 games I’ve watched him in for Real Madrid. I cannot comment fully but I’d guess Real Madrid fans wouldn’t classify him as world class. Zidane, Ronaldo(s), Pirlo, Messi, Pele, Maradona...list could go on, he’s not in their league.

What he does for Real Madrid is irrelevant to Wales.
Cometh the hour cometh the man.
Ramsay is a good player for Wales but Bale has been unbelievable when they have needed something extra ordinary to win or bring them back into a game.
He single handedly changes their results. That's what makes him a great and it's what Scotland needs to give them a punchers chance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKrXAOjNs6U

[madhatter]

I hate real madrid but that's nonsense. Scored more goals for madrid than the Brazilian ronaldo and look at his record in champions and copa del Rey finals.
Pirlo for one would love his amount of champions league medals.

How does that make him world class? That phrase gets thrown around far too much. He’s done good in a few finals but club’s fans who watch him every week don’t think he’s brilliant. Bale better than Pirlo and Brazilian Ronaldo? Not having that...

He’s been good in some big games but that’s almost like saying Solskjaer was world class but only from the bench...

World Class for me suggests being able to turn a game regularly, take it over and change it in your teams favour. Not a few now and then. If that’s what defines a World Class player then we used to have one - McFadden.

[BroxburnHibee]

Logic

Not the managers fault
Not the SFA's fault

Scotland has a population of 5 million
Russia has a population of 150 million

5 million people doesn't produce enough quality players for all positions to compete effectively against large nations unless you are very lucky.
If Kieran Tierney was a left back and a few of our multitude of midfielders were centre backs or strikers we would have a chance. Perhaps that's were the luck comes in.
Croatia are the only country in modern times that has ever consistently bucked the population numbers.

As for those rating the Scottish Rugby Union team. It is a minority sport which with the exception of France is only played seriously by countries of the old British Empire.
The only countries who take the game seriously that have a population significantly bigger than Scotland are Australia, South Africa, England and France.
Therefore Scotland should always be one of the best teams in the world. I suspect they are ranked about 8th so not punching any better than the football team. Basically we can be hopeless and still be in the World Top 10.

How many do Northern Ireland have?

I'm not saying they'll qualify but does anyone think Scotland would have 4 wins out of 4 in their group?

[B.H.F.C]

Bale isn’t world class. He is good but not in same league as many players. He’s been rubbish in all but 3 games I’ve watched him in for Real Madrid. I cannot comment fully but I’d guess Real Madrid fans wouldn’t classify him as world class. Zidane, Ronaldo(s), Pirlo, Messi, Pele, Maradona...list could go on, he’s not in their league.

He’s scored in multiple European Cup Finals. Dragged Wales to the semis of the Euros. He’s not on a level with some of the players you mention, but he’s been absolutely unbelievable.

Real Madrid fans don’t like him for whatever reason but when you look at what he’s done for them compared to Zidane, as a player, he’s miles ahead. And Zidane is one of my favourite ever players so I’m not necessarily saying Bale is better. Just that Real Madrid fans can be a bit odd.

[Smartie]

What he does for Real Madrid is irrelevant to Wales.
Cometh the hour cometh the man.
Ramsay is a good player for Wales but Bale has been unbelievable when they have needed something extra ordinary to win or bring them back into a game.
He single handedly changes their results. That's what makes him a great and it's what Scotland needs to give them a punchers chance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKrXAOjNs6U

The fact that he has dragged an otherwise fairly ordinary side through so many games is as big a justification of being world class as you can get.

[madhatter]

What he does for Real Madrid is irrelevant to Wales.
Cometh the hour cometh the man.
Ramsay is a good player for Wales but Bale has been unbelievable when they have needed something extra ordinary to win or bring them back into a game.
He single handedly changes their results. That's what makes him a great and it's what Scotland needs to give them a punchers chance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKrXAOjNs6U

I personally think Bale is playing with better players though. I’d choose at least 4-5 Welsh players over their Scottish counterparts. Welsh players, at the moment, deal with a press and with general pressure better than us. I remember Wales got a helping hand from Vokes and Robson-Kanu, neither of whom are brilliant. They just get more out of their players. I’d take both those players over McBurnie (rubbish) and Phillips. What’s Jack Harper doing?

[Smartie]

I personally think Bale is playing with better players though. I’d choose at least 4-5 Welsh players over their Scottish counterparts. Welsh players, at the moment, deal with a press and with general pressure better than us. I remember Wales got a helping hand from Vokes and Robson-Kanu, neither of whom are brilliant. They just get more out of their players. I’d take both those players over McBurnie (rubbish) and Phillips. What’s Jack Harper doing?

There are definitely some fair points in there.

Northern Ireland and Wales have both managed to find players who are fairly average at club level but who look perfectly comfortable as part of a unit at international level.

We've had few players who seem to do better for country than for club, McFadden has maybe been the only one for a while.

There have been countless players who have had outstanding club careers who have underachieved at international level.

I honestly don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure it isn't the usual tired old suggestions - number of teams in our top league, revolutionise the SFA or sack the manager.

[madhatter]

He’s scored in multiple European Cup Finals. Dragged Wales to the semis of the Euros. He’s not on a level with some of the players you mention, but he’s been absolutely unbelievable.

Real Madrid fans don’t like him for whatever reason but when you look at what he’s done for them compared to Zidane, as a player, he’s miles ahead. And Zidane is one of my favourite ever players so I’m not necessarily saying Bale is better. Just that Real Madrid fans can be a bit odd.

See, this is where I don’t see it, the whole “dragged Wales to the semis”. He scored one more goal than Robson-Kanu and didn’t even score in the Quarter Final. Dragged for me suggests more of what Ronaldo has historically done for Portugal. Unless Ronaldo scores, Portugal wouldn’t score essentially. Wales still score when Bale doesn’t. I’m not disputing that he’s a good player. Just think he’s put on a pedestal.

Divock Origi is world class based on the goals he’s scored if that’s what defines world class...

[madhatter]

There are definitely some fair points in there.

Northern Ireland and Wales have both managed to find players who are fairly average at club level but who look perfectly comfortable as part of a unit at international level.

We've had few players who seem to do better for country than for club, McFadden has maybe been the only one for a while.

There have been countless players who have had outstanding club careers who have underachieved at international level.

I honestly don't know what the answer is, but I'm pretty sure it isn't the usual tired old suggestions - number of teams in our top league, revolutionise the SFA or sack the manager.

I think some of the problems are quite simple...

Because we are always trying to qualify for some tournament the players are introduced with pressure on their shoulders. On top of that, due to technique and poor first touch, the players make poor decisions consistently. Some ridiculous stuff in the 2nd half where the Russia were pressing but not excessively but we still panicked and lost the ball.

I also think we’ve got a poor thing that consistently stays in the camp even when we shift to entirely new players, sometimes I think it’s in our nature. I think Scottish people have a weakness that arises quickly at times of struggle, “I cannot do it” or the feel sorry for myself stuff. I mean that in the best possible way. If you look at Modric’s youth career and his childhood, I think he’s got a drive and a resilience that a lot of Scottish people won’t have. No surprise that so many players come from abject poverty.

We need to say “we don’t expect to qualify for next tournament and will start new with younger squad”. We should set a rule for match day squads so that a set number of youth need to play.

[CMurdoch]

I personally think Bale is playing with better players though. I’d choose at least 4-5 Welsh players over their Scottish counterparts. Welsh players, at the moment, deal with a press and with general pressure better than us. I remember Wales got a helping hand from Vokes and Robson-Kanu, neither of whom are brilliant. They just get more out of their players. I’d take both those players over McBurnie (rubbish) and Phillips. What’s Jack Harper doing?

McBurnie isn't rubbish.
He hasn't got sexy skill but he scores goals.
24 last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFetsMx_2N8

Now show me your Jack Harper goals from last season.

[madhatter]

McBurnie isn't rubbish.
He hasn't got sexy skill but he scores goals.
24 last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFetsMx_2N8

Now show me your Jack Harper goals from last season.

He’s closer to being rubbish than to being worth £20m. He’ll be found out.

I never said anything about goals to begin with. Why is everyone so focussed on goal counts? Did McBurnie skin a whole team and thump it into the net every week? I’m thinking it was more tap ins and a teammate planting it on his head most weeks.

The question for Scotland, and one for Hibs, at the moment, is how to make a team. I’d keep McBurnie in there, but if he’s in there, and as our main striker, I’m concerned. Especially since Naismith seemed to be only backup. Griffiths would’ve been fitter.

We need to stop looking at individual stats and pay more attention to forming a team. Does that player’s traits compliment another etc?

[CMurdoch]

I think some of the problems are quite simple...

Because we are always trying to qualify for some tournament the players are introduced with pressure on their shoulders. On top of that, due to technique and poor first touch, the players make poor decisions consistently. Some ridiculous stuff in the 2nd half where the Russia were pressing but not excessively but we still panicked and lost the ball.

I also think we’ve got a poor thing that consistently stays in the camp even when we shift to entirely new players, sometimes I think it’s in our nature. I think Scottish people have a weakness that arises quickly at times of struggle, “I cannot do it” or the feel sorry for myself stuff. I mean that in the best possible way. If you look at Modric’s youth career and his childhood, I think he’s got a drive and a resilience that a lot of Scottish people won’t have. No surprise that so many players come from abject poverty.

We need to say “we don’t expect to qualify for next tournament and will start new with younger squad”. We should set a rule for match day squads so that a set number of youth need to play.

Good point.
Most Scottish peoples lives are easy, in world terms, and their sense of entitlement is immense.
I play another sport and have two African guys in my team and two Scottish guys.
Their attitudes and resilience levels are night and day.
The Scottish guys can be put off and sometimes don't perform because .... (add a reason).
The African guys are never put off and always perform. They accept good and bad luck with the same indifference. In their countries excuses and sob stories don't cut it.
You either get your **** together or suffer.
If Riordan, O'Connor and The Thumb had been brought up in similar countries they would have been some players.

[CMurdoch]

He’s closer to being rubbish than to being worth £20m. He’ll be found out.

I never said anything about goals to begin with. Why is everyone so focussed on goal counts? Did McBurnie skin a whole team and thump it into the net every week? I’m thinking it was more tap ins and a teammate planting it on his head most weeks.

The question for Scotland, and one for Hibs, at the moment, is how to make a team. I’d keep McBurnie in there, but if he’s in there, and as our main striker, I’m concerned. Especially since Naismith seemed to be only backup. Griffiths would’ve been fitter.

We need to stop looking at individual stats and pay more attention to forming a team. Does that player’s traits compliment another etc?

I think McBurnie will be back in the Championship quicker than you can say Sheffield United and for Scotland I wouldn't play him in the matches against Russia & Belgium because he isn't going to score out of nothing isolated on his own without service.
Watching all the Scotland forwards this season, Steven Fletcher looks like the pick of them but he doesn't appear interested in playing for his country.
Re Griffiths, he perhaps indicated to the manager that he didn't think he was ready yet for Scotland duty given his recent issues and lack of football.
The lack of quality at right back, centre half & centre forward is a massive issue with very few solutions on the horizon.

[Mantis Toboggan]

I think McBurnie will be back in the Championship quicker than you can say Sheffield United and for Scotland I wouldn't play him in the matches against Russia & Belgium because he isn't going to score out of nothing isolated on his own without service.
Watching all the Scotland forwards this season, Steven Fletcher looks like the pick of them but he doesn't appear interested in playing for his country.
Re Griffiths, he perhaps indicated to the manager that he didn't think he was ready yet for Scotland duty given his recent issues and lack of football.
The lack of quality at right back, centre half & centre forward is a massive issue with very few solutions on the horizon.

Gaps all over the park really. We are going nowhere.

[CMurdoch]

How many do Northern Ireland have?

I'm not saying they'll qualify but does anyone think Scotland would have 4 wins out of 4 in their group?

Probably not. They did massively well to win all 4 with their scant playing resources.
I watched highlights of their 2 away wins.
They scored a good goal against Belerus but were massively lucky against Estonia.
They will be getting 4 pumpings in their remaining 4 games starting on Monday.

[BILLYHIBS]

Russia were a very good team

They could easily have won by more

Not looking forward to Monday night

[Bobby's Cinema]

I think some of the problems are quite simple...

Because we are always trying to qualify for some tournament the players are introduced with pressure on their shoulders. On top of that, due to technique and poor first touch, the players make poor decisions consistently. Some ridiculous stuff in the 2nd half where the Russia were pressing but not excessively but we still panicked and lost the ball.

I also think we’ve got a poor thing that consistently stays in the camp even when we shift to entirely new players, sometimes I think it’s in our nature. I think Scottish people have a weakness that arises quickly at times of struggle, “I cannot do it” or the feel sorry for myself stuff. I mean that in the best possible way. If you look at Modric’s youth career and his childhood, I think he’s got a drive and a resilience that a lot of Scottish people won’t have. No surprise that so many players come from abject poverty.

We need to say “we don’t expect to qualify for next tournament and will start new with younger squad”. We should set a rule for match day squads so that a set number of youth need to play.

What a lot of ****

[JimBHibees]

Clarke has actually won the premier league and more than once. Honestly gobsmacked folk are slating him the players are poor.

He was assistant to Mourinho one of the most successful coaches ever. Clarke done an amazing job at Killie however their success was based on defensive organisation rather than flowing football. Always found them pretty turgid to watch.

A lot of our issues is at grassroots however think the performance schools project brave should ensure more technicall players come through however that is longer term. We do have some decent players but a poor team. Was surprised how poor we were to be honest. Looked a shambles defensively. No tracking runners from midfield etc quite similar to current Hibs team. I will say again the style and physicality that some teams in our top league get away with is imo killing our game. Our top league needs to hammer ther hammer throwers so to speak. Too many weak refs for example.

[MWHIBBIES]

Gylfi Sigurdsson will be 30 on Monday.
I predict that when he retires Iceland will sink like a stone

I've seen you say this many times but it's unlikely because their golden generation as you call it was not an accident, they worked hard at it. If anything the success of the last few years will inspire more kids to get into football and make it.

They already have a brilliant young attacking midfielder at CSKA who will replace him long term.

[Since90+2]

Scotland are really really poor.

No wonder the majority of Scottish football fans don't seem to care for the national team.

To put it into perspective there were just over 30,000 at the game last night , a vital Euro qualifier were a victory was essential. Compare that to rugby where there were over 20,000 more fans to watch the national team play a pre world cup friendly game.

[GreenCastle]

Logic

Not the managers fault
Not the SFA's fault

Scotland has a population of 5 million
Russia has a population of 150 million

5 million people doesn't produce enough quality players for all positions to compete effectively against large nations unless you are very lucky.
If Kieran Tierney was a left back and a few of our multitude of midfielders were centre backs or strikers we would have a chance. Perhaps that's were the luck comes in.
Croatia are the only country in modern times that has ever consistently bucked the population numbers.

As for those rating the Scottish Rugby Union team. It is a minority sport which with the exception of France is only played seriously by countries of the old British Empire.
The only countries who take the game seriously that have a population significantly bigger than Scotland are Australia, South Africa, England and France.
Therefore Scotland should always be one of the best teams in the world. I suspect they are ranked about 8th so not punching any better than the football team. Basically we can be hopeless and still be in the World Top 10.

Uruguay ? Constantly better than us.

The population thing is a simple reply.

Why aren’t China and India amazing ?

New Zealand in rugby constantly prove it’s not all about population.

It’s CULTURE - meaning how people are brought up, education (zero private school players in squad), shambles of the SFA and that’s just to start.

If you want a longer list..off the top of my head

Jobs for the boys coaching at clubs
Old Firm dominance
Inept Refs
Awful TV deal
Project Brave or could say the previous and failed 2020 vision (google it)
Sectarianism being ignored
Poor infrastructure - how many clubs improve stadia?
League structure
Cup structure
National stadium fiasco
No one trusts the SFA / compliance officer etc
Lack of sponsors
Coach education poor

[Since90+2]

Russia were a very good team

They could easily have won by more

Not looking forward to Monday night

Russia are currently ranked 46th in the world. They are not a very good team they are rank average.

[calumhibee1]

Russia are currently ranked 46th in the world. They are not a very good team they are rank average.

:agree:

They’re much better than us. But in international football terms they’re average as you say. The kind of team that might qualify, might not qualify and that’s about it.. where as were the kind of team that definitely will not qualify.

[Hibs90]

McBurnie is an absolute donkey. 20 million ****ing pounds for that? Absolutely crazy.

[MWHIBBIES]

Russia knocked Spain out the world cup a year ago, certainly a much better side than Scotland and have been for 20 years.

[BILLYHIBS]

Russia are currently ranked 46th in the world. They are not a very good team they are rank average.

See post #345

Agree they are a good team

We are nowhere near a good team

They had a system an organisation and looked as though they could step up a gear and everything was played through their very good and dangerous centre forward I lost count of the number of times the commentator said “and Scotland are hanging on here” as the defence kicked and hacked at the ball to get it out of our box

Russia are a good team and Belgium are better

Did Russia not beat SAN Marino 9-0 ?

[madhatter]

What a lot of ****

Really don’t think it is. Beyond a few odd ones, virtually all the best players in the world come from ridiculous poverty. There are still many countries where playing football on the street can be done. How can we expect the same from the Scottish player growing up in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen? Look at Modric’s youth and give me one example of a current Scottish international that had to leave their home due to a war. Events like that in your life either make you or break you. Ibrahimovic lived in poverty, Zidane’s family were refugees...so on and so on.

Scottish and British people, on masse, do have a sense of entitlement and privilege because, for most, we don’t encounter struggles that go to that basic level of food, shelter and clothing. Not all of us, but for a huge percentage of us, we don’t have these struggles.

If you think our youth can be as resilient as an African boy/girl growing up in a village wondering where the food and water is coming from then I guess video games, junk food and general luxury are having a positive effect...

[J-C]

We do not produce world class players any more, that simple. No more Dalglish's, Souness's, Law's etc.

[MWHIBBIES]

We do not produce world class players any more, that simple. No more Dalglish's, Souness's, Law's etc.

Was there any world class players in Russias team? Robertson is definitely one of the worlds top left backs so I'd say he is world class.

[Since90+2]

Really don’t think it is. Beyond a few odd ones, virtually all the best players in the world come from ridiculous poverty. There are still many countries where playing football on the street can be done. How can we expect the same from the Scottish player growing up in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen? Look at Modric’s youth and give me one example of a current Scottish international that had to leave their home due to a war. Events like that in your life either make you or break you. Ibrahimovic lived in poverty, Zidane’s family were refugees...so on and so on.

Scottish and British people, on masse, do have a sense of entitlement and privilege because, for most, we don’t encounter struggles that go to that basic level of food, shelter and clothing. Not all of us, but for a huge percentage of us, we don’t have these struggles.

If you think our youth can be as resilient as an African boy/girl growing up in a village wondering where the food and water is coming from then I guess video games, junk food and general luxury are having a positive effect...

How much poverty have the Dutch and Belgian players grown up in?

[Sir David Gray]

Really don’t think it is. Beyond a few odd ones, virtually all the best players in the world come from ridiculous poverty. There are still many countries where playing football on the street can be done. How can we expect the same from the Scottish player growing up in Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen? Look at Modric’s youth and give me one example of a current Scottish international that had to leave their home due to a war. Events like that in your life either make you or break you. Ibrahimovic lived in poverty, Zidane’s family were refugees...so on and so on.

Scottish and British people, on masse, do have a sense of entitlement and privilege because, for most, we don’t encounter struggles that go to that basic level of food, shelter and clothing. Not all of us, but for a huge percentage of us, we don’t have these struggles.

If you think our youth can be as resilient as an African boy/girl growing up in a village wondering where the food and water is coming from then I guess video games, junk food and general luxury are having a positive effect...

I think there's some merit in that but I don't think it's as simple as that. How do you explain the countless number of developed nations that are above Scotland in the rankings? I just think the structure of football in this country is garbage.

Switzerland is one of the wealthiest nations in the world, has a population not too dissimilar to Scotland and yet their national team is currently 11th in the world rankings.

Wales and Northern Ireland have populations smaller than Scotland and yet both find themselves comfortably above us in the rankings

[hibsbollah]

How much poverty have the Dutch and Belgian players grown up in?

Some of them, a lot, others not so much. But that doesn't invalidate madhatters argument.

Having the necessary hunger is a massive prerequisite for sporting success. Most sports psychologists assess the relative importance of mental aspects as being 70%-30% over technical aspects. If you are poor or a refugee or literally hungry, you are not guaranteed sporting success but it helps give you that drive. There's a reason why black athletes dominate US sports, aside from the minor genetic advantages. It's because sports are the main arena in that increasingly racist society where blacks are allowed to thrive. They're not going to make it on Wall Street. They have no access to credit to start their own business. And they have a determination that is usually absent from a privileged kid from a neighbouring district.

There are exceptions of course, Gianluca Vialli grew up in a castle, Andy Murray was a middle class Scot from Perth shire. They both had an incredible hunger to grow and improve and learn. Just because that hunger is metaphorical and not physical hunger, its still the same psychological process at work. Give me a hungry player every time. Personally, I don't see that hunger in Scottish players that often. Perhaps they see there being a glass ceiling of how high they are going to get in the game in this country,I dunno?

[J-C]

Was there any world class players in Russias team? Robertson is definitely one of the worlds top left backs so I'd say he is world class.

He's a very good left back in an exceptional Liverpool team, not world class. I'm not saying Russia had world class players but they did play far better on the night. We have a bunch of not bad players but unfortunately we have some real dross in certain positions that will get found out at this level.

[Sylar]

As for those rating the Scottish Rugby Union team. It is a minority sport which with the exception of France is only played seriously by countries of the old British Empire.
The only countries who take the game seriously that have a population significantly bigger than Scotland are Australia, South Africa, England and France.
Therefore Scotland should always be one of the best teams in the world. I suspect they are ranked about 8th so not punching any better than the football team. Basically we can be hopeless and still be in the World Top 10.

Respectfully, that's nonsense.

It might not be played as widely as football, but rugby is far from a minority sport and I'd wager that Argentina, Japan, the USA, Russia, Samoa, Tonga, Fiji etc would take serious exception to your suggestion that they don't take the game seriously.

Scotland aren't where they are by default. The SRU absolutely transformed the way rugby is played in this country - no longer is it the sole bastion of the private schools in Edinburgh and Aberdeen, but a game that's attractive and accessible all across Scotland. The introduction of touch rugby, for example, allowed an entirely new generation to get into the game. Significant investment has been made in providing facilities and competition, and training opportunities. What's the effect? Just look at the domestic fortunes of Edinburgh and Glasgow, the vast majority of which has been achieved through home-grown players. And it's not just a "golden generation" that we're currently enjoying - you can also see the next generation staking their claim to continue our recent successes.

It's taken time and investment to build a successful rugby brand in Scotland and the SRU are to be lauded as an example of what CAN be achieved.

[Since90+2]

Some of them, a lot, others not so much. But that doesn't invalidate madhatters argument.

Having the necessary hunger is a massive prerequisite for sporting success. Most sports psychologists assess the relative importance of mental aspects as being 70%-30% over technical aspects. If you are poor or a refugee or literally hungry, you are not guaranteed sporting success but it helps give you that drive. There's a reason why black athletes dominate US sports, aside from the minor genetic advantages. It's because sports are the main arena in that increasingly racist society where blacks are allowed to thrive. They're not going to make it on Wall Street. They have no access to credit to start their own business. And they have a determination that is usually absent from a privileged kid from a neighbouring district.

There are exceptions of course, Gianluca Vialli grew up in a castle, Andy Murray was a middle class Scot from Perth shire. They both had an incredible hunger to grow and improve and learn. Just because that hunger is metaphorical and not physical hunger, its still the same psychological process at work. Give me a hungry player every time.

His point was "virtually all the best players in the world come from ridiculous poverty" which is clearly nonsense. Did Eden Hazard , Virgil Van Dijk or Kevin De Bruyne grown up in poverty where they had to scrap for food on a daily basis? No.

It's a lazy arguement that holds no weight whatsoever. Germany , the most successful European nation , has a standard of living that is at the very least the equal of that in Scotland.

The reason Scotland are so poor is down to two things , coaching and facilities.

[madhatter]

How much poverty have the Dutch and Belgian players grown up in?

No idea. Dutch cannot even be brought into this though as they have a footballing philosophy that almost engulfs the country. They nurture talent and most kids have a desire to succeed more than earn tons of money. Look at Rashfords Man Utd deal, ridiculous considering he’s done virtually nothing in football.

Belgian players, difficult to compare as well because some have Congolese parents and similar so I’m sure compared to their Belgium country mates, they were in poverty for a time. Possibly not, I don’t know.

[madhatter]

His point was "virtually all the best players in the world come from ridiculous poverty" which is clearly nonsense. Did Eden Hazard , Virgil Van Dijk or Kevin De Bruyne grown up in poverty where they had to scrap for food on a daily basis? No.

It's a lazy arguement that holds no weight whatsoever. Germany , the most successful European nation , has a standard of living that is at the very least the equal of that in Scotland.

The reason Scotland are so poor is down to two things , coaching and facilities.

List the best players in the world historically and we’ll see how many originally come from poverty. Don’t be calling it a lazy argument and clearly nonsense...you’ve used Germany as example. When was the last time the best player in the world came from Germany? Maybe you’d like to use Podolski, Boateng and players like that to prove your point? Ozil maybe?

[Since90+2]

No idea. Dutch cannot even be brought into this though as they have a footballing philosophy that almost engulfs the country. They nurture talent and most kids have a desire to succeed more than earn tons of money. Look at Rashfords Man Utd deal, ridiculous considering he’s done virtually nothing in football.

Belgian players, difficult to compare as well because some have Congolese parents and similar so I’m sure compared to their Belgium country mates, they were in poverty for a time. Possibly not, I don’t know.

So you admit you've no idea how many of them grew up in poverty yet your previous post you claim virtually all the best players grew up in poverty? That's a very odd and contradictory couple of statements to make.

[Allant1981]

He's a very good left back in an exceptional Liverpool team, not world class. I'm not saying Russia had world class players but they did play far better on the night. We have a bunch of not bad players but unfortunately we have some real dross in certain positions that will get found out at this level.

Robertson is regarded as one of, if not the best LB in the world, if that doesnt make him world class then dunno what will

[Since90+2]

List the best players in the world historically and we’ll see how many originally come from poverty. Don’t be calling it a lazy argument and clearly nonsense...you’ve used Germany as example. When was the last time the best player in the world came from Germany? Maybe you’d like to use Podolski, Boateng and players like that to prove your point? Ozil maybe?

Off the top of my head:

Xavi
Iniesta
Bale
Hazard
Van Dijk
De Bruyne
Robben
Griezeman
Ramos
David Silva
Kane
Pique
Isco
Hummells
Schweinsteger

All world class players and none to my knowledge grew up in abject poverty or had to fight for food everyday. There are undoubtedly some players who grew up in poverty, especially in previous decades , but to claim virtually all the best players are from poverty is absolute nonsense.

[J-C]

Robertson is regarded as one of, if not the best LB in the world, if that doesnt make him world class then dunno what will

I think he's a very good decent international quality player but his Liverpool team are something else, personally I don't think he's world class, very good yes.

[Northern Hibby]

Good point.
Most Scottish peoples lives are easy, in world terms, and their sense of entitlement is immense.
I play another sport and have two African guys in my team and two Scottish guys.
Their attitudes and resilience levels are night and day.
The Scottish guys can be put off and sometimes don't perform because .... (add a reason).
The African guys are never put off and always perform. They accept good and bad luck with the same indifference. In their countries excuses and sob stories don't cut it.
You either get your **** together or suffer.
If Riordan, O'Connor and The Thumb had been brought up in similar countries they would have been some players.

Spoke to an old coach who thinks the difference is kids (him) used to turn up with boots under their arm after getting 2 busses, these days they get dropped off by parents, and he said you can see they are there more because the parents want it rather than them.

[madhatter]

So you admit you've no idea how many of them grew up in poverty yet your previous post you claim virtually all the best players grew up in poverty? That's a very odd and contradictory couple of statements to make.

No, I admit in your example I have no idea. I know Zidane, Ibrahimovic, ****e, Ronaldo(s), Messi, Tevez, Aguero, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Maradona and so on all came from poor countries. How you are trying to argue that a large proportion of the best players dont come from poverty or the poorer spectrum of their source country is beyond me. I guess seeing as you are countering my argument, can you get me the stats for how many professional footballers world wide that went to private school?

[madhatter]

Off the top of my head:

Xavi
Iniesta
Bale
Hazard
Van Dijk
De Bruyne
Robben
Griezeman
Ramos
David Silva
Kane
Pique
Isco
Hummells
Schweinsteger

All world class players and none to my knowledge grew up in abject poverty or had to fight for food everyday. There are undoubtedly some players who grew up in poverty, especially in previous decades , but to claim virtually all the best players are from poverty is absolute nonsense.

You think all those players you've listed are world class? Jeez. we'll never agree on this.

[Since90+2]

You think all those players you've listed are world class? Jeez. we'll never agree on this.

You gave an example of Modric of a player coming from poverty , I've listed Xavi and Iniesta who are better players than him and didn't come from "ridiculous poverty".

Cant you see a flaw in your arguement there that "virtually all" the best players come from poverty?

[Smartie]

Personally, I think it is more down to the number of hours that kids spend playing in general but also playing football specifically (whilst stopping short of going down the lame "playstation" argument route).

Physical activity for hours on end hones co-ordination and muscle activity. Playing football for hours on ends hones basic footballing skills so you don't need to coach those. If players arrive at training with the building blocks in place you can then build on that base.

We're never going to create world class footballers from 2x 1 hour games of football per week. Those who have a natural talent to start with, play loads in the garden, in the street etc then go to football as well will rise to the top.

I think it's quite insulting whilst we've got players like McGinn and Robertson making the progress they are in our game to question hunger and dedication - they have it in spades. Whether they continue to have dedication to playing for their country whilst they need to maintain hunger to pick up tens or hundreds of thousands of pounds per week at their clubs is a very different story. I get the feeling that trying to keep the tartan army happy soon ends up being a bigger headache for players than it is worth, and they'd rather be at their cubs, especially the Old Firm and big clubs down South.

Honestly, I think we're closer to having a decent side now than we have been for ages. If Dzubya was on our side instead of theirs last night, that's a different game. We're desperately short of a decent striker, a RB and a CB. Other than we've got a good side, with decent depth in some areas.

When Tierney comes back he must play RB.

[Since90+2]

No, I admit in your example I have no idea. I know Zidane, Ibrahimovic, ****e, Ronaldo(s), Messi, Tevez, Aguero, Cafu, Roberto Carlos, Maradona and so on all came from poor countries. How you are trying to argue that a large proportion of the best players dont come from poverty or the poorer spectrum of their source country is beyond me. I guess seeing as you are countering my argument, can you get me the stats for how many professional footballers world wide that went to private school?

I'm not arguing that a large proportion of players don't from working class backgrounds, which is different to "ridiculous poverty" btw, but I'm disproving that nearly all the top players are from poverty stricken, food scavaging backgrounds as they clearly are not.

[hibeerealist]

Robertson is regarded as one of, if not the best LB in the world, if that doesnt make him world class then dunno what will

Hardly noticed he was playing last night, a world class player would be noticed even if having a poor game.

[Smartie]

I'm not arguing that a large proportion of players don't from working class backgrounds, which is different to "ridiculous poverty" btw, but I'm disproving that nearly all the top players are from poverty stricken, food scavaging backgrounds as they clearly are not.

More and more successful English players than ever are being educated at private schools, and they are probably the country who are making the biggest progress at the very top of the game right now.

[JohnM1875]

Yet another bizarre Scottish trait. Talk down someone's ability instead of bigging them up. Andy Robertson is 100% world class. It's no fluke he's a main player in that liverpool team and adds just as much to their success as any other player.

Messi has loads of games where he's anonymous for Argentina. Doesn't mean he's not one of the best players to have ever played the game. Total madness.

[where'stheslope]

When was the last time you went to your local play park and seen jackets down for goal posts, and playing 20 a side????
It does not happen now, when I was young the Meadows featured 5 or 6 of these games on a Sat or Sun!
This was all ages games from 10 - 60 and lasted for up to 4 hours!!!
You'll never see the likes of it again!

[hibsbollah]

His point was "virtually all the best players in the world come from ridiculous poverty" which is clearly nonsense. Did Eden Hazard , Virgil Van Dijk or Kevin De Bruyne grown up in poverty where they had to scrap for food on a daily basis? No.

It's a lazy arguement that holds no weight whatsoever. Germany , the most successful European nation , has a standard of living that is at the very least the equal of that in Scotland.

The reason Scotland are so poor is down to two things , coaching and facilities.

He used hyperbole when saying 'virtually all'. He should probably say he overreached himself there, always difficult to do when you're arguing online:greengrin But I agree with the wider point. And I think you're only partially right, we're crap because of 3 things; coaching, facilities and culture. Of course there were always be an exception like Andy Robertson and Andy Murray who have that hunger inside them (but it's worth noting that both of those athletes rejected the standard path to success, Murray basically emigrated to the balearics away from our domestic structure for years when he was a kid, and Robbo went through the lower leagues away from the SFA pathway structure)

[Yorkshire HFC]

What would happen if, to assist the national team, Heckingbottom filled the Hibs team with 6 youth players every week?

The fans would soon have him sacked - they would rather the team was filled with 30 year olds on loan from English first division players.

[GreenCastle]

Robertson is regarded as one of, if not the best LB in the world, if that doesnt make him world class then dunno what will

Not this again.

Robertson world class ?

He’s playing in a good team and terrible national team.

Why did he look so average once again last night ?

Put Messi in that Scotland team last night and you would have seen a world class player.

Good player doing well but World Class ?

Scotland hasn’t got a single world class player.

[theonlywayisup]

When was the last time you went to your local play park and seen jackets down for goal posts, and playing 20 a side????
It does not happen now, when I was young the Meadows featured 5 or 6 of these games on a Sat or Sun!
This was all ages games from 10 - 60 and lasted for up to 4 hours!!!
You'll never see the likes of it again!

That is exactly the point I made in a previous thread. Boys should be playing for fun with their pals.

The current structure of well intentioned dads running schools/boys football has to stop along with the win at all costs approach. And the movement of boys from one club to another so that they can get noticed. And the "let's play the big lads" mentality. I've seen it all and it's no wonder we're in the mess we are in.

[hibsbollah]

That is exactly the point I made in a previous thread. Boys should be playing for fun with their pals.

The current structure of well intentioned dads running schools/boys football has to stop along with the win at all costs approach. And the movement of boys from one club to another so that they can get noticed. And the "let's play the big lads" mentality. I've seen it all and it's no wonder we're in the mess we are in.

As one of those dads I agree with you 100%. 'my dad says I'll only get noticed if I go to Salvy/Tynie/Hutchy Vale so I'm away'

[MWHIBBIES]

Not this again.

Robertson world class ?

He’s playing in a good team and terrible national team.

Why did he look so average once again last night ?

Put Messi in that Scotland team last night and you would have seen a world class player.

Good player doing well but World Class ?

Scotland hasn’t got a single world class player.

He is a big reason that club team is so good. He is a world class left back.

[we are hibs]

Not for me to defend liverpool players but how is he not world class? Is there actually a left back in the world at this moment in time who is better than him?

[Curried]

Not for me to defend liverpool players but how is he not world class? Is there actually a left back in the world at this moment in time who is better than him?

Tierney

[MSK]

TierneyNo chance

[ben johnson]

When was the last time you went to your local play park and seen jackets down for goal posts, and playing 20 a side????
It does not happen now, when I was young the Meadows featured 5 or 6 of these games on a Sat or Sun!
This was all ages games from 10 - 60 and lasted for up to 4 hours!!!
You'll never see the likes of it again!

We used to play every day as kids. Even when in late teens every Sunday was a game on the full size pitch and could be 15 aside and all age ranges
I was back in the village a few years ago and it was the week before bonfire night The village bonfire had been built on one of the penalty spots.
I could not believe it.

[SHODAN]

Ah yes, the classic "Scotland is the only country in the world where kids don't go down the park any more and are always playing their playstations" pish.

[One Day Soon]

The national team's SFA-driven mediocrity is so total - and so enduring - that my apathy meant I forgot we were even playing last night. I'm glad I did.

Any coherent diagnosis of why we punch so massively below our potential needs to start by asking: what is it that other countries of similar scale do that we don't - and what they don't do that we do?

One thing they don't do is have a sectarian fuelled cancer at the heart of their game which creates a distorted administrative structure largely acting primarily in their interests, creating a league that is not genuinely competitive and fuelling a system in which at almost every level the game is not run according to what makes most sense but instead is run according to what suits different vested interests.

We don't take our game seriously. We play our national games in a stadium that is not fit for purpose. We don't confront rampant bigotry in any meaningful way: our clubs don't, our media don't, our political leaders don't. But they will go nuts over flare throwing, pitch invasions - single or multiple - and anything that is a soft target. There's a disjoint between all the different levels and ages of football. We let the game be led by fools who can't see past the next (poor) tv deal. We see most intitiatives limited or prevented by the self interest of clubs whose starting point is 'whatever needs done, how do we make sure our own status quo is preserved'.

I'm pretty cheesed off with everyone who has a leadership role within and related to Scottish football to be honest.

[noz]

we should do a poll, I dont think Robertsons world class personally, but looking at previous posts, looks like the views are 50/50.

Take Bale for example, you could turn to him to provide something special for his country, Robertson cant do that. OK he scored a screamer in a previous game, but his highlights are isolated.
In fact, he was at fault for their first goal yesterday and hes been at fault for another but cant remember which game.
We need Tierney at left back and Robertson at left midfield.

[J-C]

The national team's SFA-driven mediocrity is so total - and so enduring - that my apathy meant I forgot we were even playing last night. I'm glad I did.

Any coherent diagnosis of why we punch so massively below our potential needs to start by asking: what is it that other countries of similar scale do that we don't - and what they don't do that we do?

One thing they don't do is have a sectarian fuelled cancer at the heart of their game which creates a distorted administrative structure largely acting primarily in their interests, creating a league that is not genuinely competitive and fuelling a system in which at almost every level the game is not run according to what makes most sense but instead is run according to what suits different vested interests.

We don't take our game seriously. We play our national games in a stadium that is not fit for purpose. We don't confront rampant bigotry in any meaningful way: our clubs don't, our media don't, our political leaders don't. But they will go nuts over flare throwing, pitch invasions - single or multiple - and anything that is a soft target. There's a disjoint between all the different levels and ages of football. We let the game be led by fools who can't see past the next (poor) tv deal. We see most intitiatives limited or prevented by the self interest of clubs whose starting point is 'whatever needs done, how do we make sure our own status quo is preserved'.

I'm pretty cheesed off with everyone who has a leadership role within and related to Scottish football to be honest.

Fantastic post 👍

[Joe6-2]

[QUOTE=One Day Soon;5921176]The national team's SFA-driven mediocrity is so total - and so enduring - that my apathy meant I forgot we were even playing last night. I'm glad I did.

Any coherent diagnosis of why we punch so massively below our potential needs to start by asking: what is it that other countries of similar scale do that we don't - and what they don't do that we do?

One thing they don't do is have a sectarian fuelled cancer at the heart of their game which creates a distorted administrative structure largely acting primarily in their interests, creating a league that is not genuinely competitive and fuelling a system in which at almost every level the game is not run according to what makes most sense but instead is run according to what suits different vested interests.

We don't take our game seriously. We play our national games in a stadium that is not fit for purpose. We don't confront rampant bigotry in any meaningful way: our clubs don't, our media don't, our political leaders don't. But they will go nuts over flare throwing, pitch invasions - single or multiple - and anything that is a soft target. There's a disjoint between all the different levels and ages of football. We let the game be led by fools who can't see past the next (poor) tv deal. We see most intitiatives limited or prevented by the self interest of clubs whose starting point is 'whatever needs done, how do we make sure our own status quo is preserved'.

I'm pretty cheesed off with everyone who has a leadership role within and related to Scottish football to be honest.[/QUOTE

Well said

[MWHIBBIES]

we should do a poll, I dont think Robertsons world class personally, but looking at previous posts, looks like the views are 50/50.

Take Bale for example, you could turn to him to provide something special for his country, Robertson cant do that. OK he scored a screamer in a previous game, but his highlights are isolated.
In fact, he was at fault for their first goal yesterday and hes been at fault for another but cant remember which game.
We need Tierney at left back and Robertson at left midfield.

Bale is a forward, that is why he can do something special to win a game...

[SHODAN]

If Andy Robertson was Brazilian we'd be lauding him as the best thing since Roberto Carlos.

The Scottish cringe is a ****in' joke.

[JohnM1875]

If Andy Robertson was Brazilian we'd be lauding him as the best thing since Roberto Carlos.

The Scottish cringe is a ****in' joke.

Couldn't agree more.

He's a mainstay in one of the top teams in Europe and is nominated for the Fifa team of the year. But apparently he's not world class. Wow.

People quoting Bale and Messi as comparisons. Robertson is a left back! He's never going to go on a dribble through the middle of the pitch beating a few players then rocket one into the top corner. Nor should he be expected to.

[noz]

Bale is a forward, that is why he can do something special to win a game...

yeah, but Robertsons best attributes are going forward, think he would excel further up.
Mind you, hes got Mane and Salah to pick out, not McBirnie!

[hibsbollah]

The national team's SFA-driven mediocrity is so total - and so enduring - that my apathy meant I forgot we were even playing last night. I'm glad I did.

Any coherent diagnosis of why we punch so massively below our potential needs to start by asking: what is it that other countries of similar scale do that we don't - and what they don't do that we do?

One thing they don't do is have a sectarian fuelled cancer at the heart of their game which creates a distorted administrative structure largely acting primarily in their interests, creating a league that is not genuinely competitive and fuelling a system in which at almost every level the game is not run according to what makes most sense but instead is run according to what suits different vested interests.

We don't take our game seriously. We play our national games in a stadium that is not fit for purpose. We don't confront rampant bigotry in any meaningful way: our clubs don't, our media don't, our political leaders don't. But they will go nuts over flare throwing, pitch invasions - single or multiple - and anything that is a soft target. There's a disjoint between all the different levels and ages of football. We let the game be led by fools who can't see past the next (poor) tv deal. We see most intitiatives limited or prevented by the self interest of clubs whose starting point is 'whatever needs done, how do we make sure our own status quo is preserved'.

I'm pretty cheesed off with everyone who has a leadership role within and related to Scottish football to be honest.

Fully agree with all of that.

[CorrieHibs]

Kosovo with a massive win today against Czech Republic. Could be heading to the Euros!

Not bad for a country with a population of 1.8m. Only gained FIFA/UEFA membership in 2016. Won their Nations League group and currently top of their Euro 2020 group.

[J-C]

Robertson can maraude forward because Liverpool have superb defenders and midfielders to cover for him, if he did that for Scotland we'd be ripped apart even more. I noticed when O'Donnell went forward there was huge gaps due to no one filling in behind him, Russia exposed this.

[Allant1981]

Not this again.

Robertson world class ?

He’s playing in a good team and terrible national team.

Why did he look so average once again last night ?

Put Messi in that Scotland team last night and you would have seen a world class player.

Good player doing well but World Class ?

Scotland hasn’t got a single world class player.

All in your opinion, everyone looked average last night and we have quite a few above average players

[Yorkshire HFC]

Fully agree with all of that.

How come everything is the fault of the SFA? Surely the clubs are also responsible? What are Hibs doing to help the national team?

Do the clubs not have a duty to do more? They will benefit massively if the national team is successful.

[ekhibee]

Robertson's a very good player but didn't play well against Russia. I don't see the point in debating whether he's world class on this thread as it was about 1 specific game. A lot of people on this thread are quite determined to win petty and irrelevant arguments regarding his ability. It really doesn't matter as he didn't play well against Russia and he'd be the first to admit it.

[Allant1981]

Robertson's a very good player but didn't play well against Russia. I don't see the point in debating whether he's world class on this thread as it was about 1 specific game. A lot of people on this thread are quite determined to win petty and irrelevant arguments regarding his ability. It really doesn't matter as he didn't play well against Russia and he'd be the first to admit it.

Dont think anyone is looking to win or have any arguments, it's called debate and there has been no arguments yet as far as I can see

[Jones28]

The national team's SFA-driven mediocrity is so total - and so enduring - that my apathy meant I forgot we were even playing last night. I'm glad I did.

Any coherent diagnosis of why we punch so massively below our potential needs to start by asking: what is it that other countries of similar scale do that we don't - and what they don't do that we do?

One thing they don't do is have a sectarian fuelled cancer at the heart of their game which creates a distorted administrative structure largely acting primarily in their interests, creating a league that is not genuinely competitive and fuelling a system in which at almost every level the game is not run according to what makes most sense but instead is run according to what suits different vested interests.

We don't take our game seriously. We play our national games in a stadium that is not fit for purpose. We don't confront rampant bigotry in any meaningful way: our clubs don't, our media don't, our political leaders don't. But they will go nuts over flare throwing, pitch invasions - single or multiple - and anything that is a soft target. There's a disjoint between all the different levels and ages of football. We let the game be led by fools who can't see past the next (poor) tv deal. We see most intitiatives limited or prevented by the self interest of clubs whose starting point is 'whatever needs done, how do we make sure our own status quo is preserved'.

I'm pretty cheesed off with everyone who has a leadership role within and related to Scottish football to be honest.

A great summary ODS 👍🏻

[cabbageandribs1875]

Slivka starts for Lithuania v Ukraine

[Billy Whizz]

Slivka starts for Lithuania v Ukraine

He’s on the bench

[cabbageandribs1875]

He’s on the bench


had him in the first eleven when they put the teams up just before KO, anyway... 1-0 Ukraine after 6 mins



edit: actually, it must have been the substitutes line-up they had up...all 12 of them

[G B Young]

Steve Clarke: "For reasons I have yet to determine, we allowed Russia to dominate us."

Makes it sound like there's some sort of complex analysis required when the reason is simply that Russia were by far the better team.

[Wilson]

Steve Clarke: "For reasons I have yet to determine, we allowed Russia to dominate us."

Makes it sound like there's some sort of complex analysis required when the reason is simply that Russia were simply by far the better team.

If Steve Clarke was the kind if coach that accepted that then his Killie side wouldn't have punched so much above its weight. Scotland should have been able to take something at Hampden.

[Pretty Boy]

I think in UK sport, probably not entirely relevant to football, there is a strange paradox in that funding is given to the sports in which we are successful but to secure the funding in the 1st place you have to have success and then continue to be successful and hit specified targets to maintain or grow said funding.

Over the last few years Britain has enjoyed success in the likes of cycling, hockey, boxing, rowing, equestrian, canoeing, diving, athletics and gymnastics. All have seen significant funding increases on the back of that. On the flip side the slow down in success in swimming has seen funding cut, handball, table tennis and wrestling saw their funding completely wiped out because they failed to meet the targets set.

Is it a coincidence that Iceland have enjoyed relative footballing success in recent years after investing a lot of money in both coaching and infrastructure? Is it a coincidence that in other sports the UK tends to perform best in the sports that receive the most funding?

Football is our nation sport but it's underfunded. How many clubs have affordable access to facilities such as those at the Oriam or Toryglen? Bairns playing football in the street might inject a sense of fun into football but to mould top players you need quality facilities and quality coaches. It's no coincidence Barcelona produce so many top young players; they don't pluck these guys off the street at 17, they are in their system from a young age. They train and play on top quality artificial, yes artificial, pitches, they are taken care off, educated and brought up in a culture of positivity and success. What's the difference between them and us? Money? Quality of coaching? Quality of infrastructure? I'd suggest all of them plus that mentality of having the unspecified 'it'.

I think in many ways our navel gazing, negative attitude towards Scottish football plays a part as well. Are young guys in Scotland proud to say they are football players or football supporters in the same way as they are in other countries? Football fans both allow our sport to be talked down and actively encourage those doing so. People take great pleasure in running down successful Scottish players, see the comments about Andy Robertson on this thread or the thread about Kirk Broadfoot. One is playing at the very top level whilst the other made a very good career using the ability he had; it seems some have taken great enjoyment from labelling one garbage or rubbish and the other as thick. Compare that with the way many rugby fans treat the national team. A lot of the rugby fans I know hold these guys up as what every boy in Scotland should aspire to be. As the national sport maybe it's time we injected a bit of pride and positivity back into the game at all levels to make young guys proud to be pursuing a career in the game. If the fans take pleasure in talking down players who have lived the dream at every opportunity it's no wonder there is a mentality issue with regards to striving to be better. What's the point if your achievements are just going to be belittled anyway?

[hfc rd]

I think in UK sport, probably not entirely relevant to football, there is a strange paradox in that funding is given to the sports in which we are successful but to secure the funding in the 1st place you have to have success and then continue to be successful and hit specified targets to maintain or grow said funding.

Over the last few years Britain has enjoyed success in the likes of cycling, hockey, boxing, rowing, equestrian, canoeing, diving, athletics and gymnastics. All have seen significant funding increases on the back of that. On the flip side the slow down in success in swimming has seen funding cut, handball, table tennis and wrestling saw their funding completely wiped out because they failed to meet the targets set.

Is it a coincidence that Iceland have enjoyed relative footballing success in recent years after investing a lot of money in both coaching and infrastructure? Is it a coincidence that in other sports the UK tends to perform best in the sports that receive the most funding?

Football is our nation sport but it's underfunded. How many clubs have affordable access to facilities such as those at the Oriam or Toryglen? Bairns playing football in the street might inject a sense of fun into football but to mould top players you need quality facilities and quality coaches. It's no coincidence Barcelona produce so many top young players; they don't pluck these guys off the street at 17, they are in their system from a young age. They train and play on top quality artificial, yes artificial, pitches, they are taken care off, educated and brought up in a culture of positivity and success. What's the difference between them and us? Money? Quality of coaching? Quality of infrastructure? I'd suggest all of them plus that mentality of having the unspecified 'it'.

I think in many ways our navel gazing, negative attitude towards Scottish football plays a part as well. Are young guys in Scotland proud to say they are football players or football supporters in the same way as they are in other countries? Football fans both allow our sport to be talked down and actively encourage those doing so. People take great pleasure in running down successful Scottish players, see the comments about Andy Robertson on this thread or the thread about Kirk Broadfoot. One is playing at the very top level whilst the other made a very good career using the ability he had; it seems some have taken great enjoyment from labelling one garbage or rubbish and the other as thick. Compare that with the way many rugby fans great the national team. A lot of the rugby fans I know hold these guys up as what every boy in Scotland should aspire to be. As the national sport maybe it's time we injected a bit of pride and positivity back into the game at all levels to make young guys proud to be pursuing a career in the game. If the fans take pleasure in talking down players who have lived the dream at every opportunity it's no wonder there is a mentality issue with regards to striving to be better. What's the point if your achievements are just going to be belittled anyway?


The attendance last night at Murrayfield for the rugby was 53K. That’s 21K more than the attendance at Hampden.

Crazy thing is that I’m genuinely not surprised one bit with vast difference between the attendances at both Hampden & Murrayfield last night. It’s clear as day that folk would rather go and watch a meaningless rugby friendly against an “average opponent” with Scotland fielding a very young / 2nd string side over the national football team who’s game had way more importance to it due to needing a win to stand any chance of qualifying automatically for Euro 2020.

[Sir David Gray]

The attendance last night at Murrayfield for the rugby was 53K. That’s 21K more than the attendance at Hampden.

Crazy thing is that I’m genuinely not surprised one bit with vast difference between the attendances at both Hampden & Murrayfield last night. It’s clear as day that folk would rather go and watch a meaningless rugby friendly against an “average opponent” with Scotland fielding a very young / 2nd string side over the national football team who’s game had way more importance to it due to needing a win to stand any chance of qualifying automatically for Euro 2020.

I'm not sure there's that many people who went to both Hampden and Murrayfield last night, who would have considered going to the other venue so I don't think it was a case of many people choosing to go to Murrayfield rather than Hampden.

I do think there is a general apathy towards Scottish football though that isn't necessarily the case with Scottish rugby. I also think the core support of the Scotland rugby team seem far more likely to turn up to Murrayfield than the core support of the football team are to turn up at Hampden.

[Smartie]

I'm not sure there's that many people who went to both Hampden and Murrayfield last night, who would have considered going to the other venue so I don't think it was a case of many people choosing to go to Murrayfield rather than Hampden.

I do think there is a general apathy towards Scottish football though that isn't necessarily the case with Scottish rugby. I also think the core support of the Scotland rugby team seem far more likely to turn up to Murrayfield than the core support of the football team are to turn up at Hampden.

I was a core supporter until this campaign (had been in the supporters club for about 15 years).

Various factors led to me stopping going - the "week of football" nonsense being the main one. I can't be arsed going through to mediocre Scotland games on a Thursday or Monday night. When I followed Scotland is was about a day on the bevvy with a particular group of mates more than quality of football. If you know that a good chunk of games are going to be like that, you might pick the one or two interesting ones and go to those. Last night's game was probably the best one for me - a Friday night and an important game. I just couldn't muster up the enthusiasm and the group of people I used to go with has evaporated for various reasons anyway.

I was also miffed that they jacked the prices up too. I'm a lot skinter than I used to be and I've developed a consumer ego that doesn't like being pissed about or taken for granted. When an organisation as absolutely shambolic as the SFA decide they're going to charge significantly more to watch a side that isn't all that better and far less in demand in a pitiful national stadium then my personal pride wants to tell them to get stuffed.

Make no mistake - there is nothing I would like more than to go to watch Scotland play football, enjoy it, and do it with decent company. For many reasons the "experience of watching Scotland" has been torn to pieces in recent years - for me anyway. It wasn't long ago at all that Scotland had far better crowds and we would have sold out that game last night. That's why the SFA should be concerned and looking to make changes where they can.

[ekhibee]

Dont think anyone is looking to win or have any arguments, it's called debate and there has been no arguments yet as far as I can see

There's no need to patronize me, and it wasn't debate, it was people constantly contradicting each other. The thread was about the Scotland v Russia game, not about how good a player Andy Robertson is.

[Allant1981]

There's no need to patronize me, and it wasn't debate, it was people constantly contradicting each other. The thread was about the Scotland v Russia game, not about how good a player Andy Robertson is.

Wasnt trying to be patronising, there have been no arguments, one persons opinion versus another opinion on a player, a scotland player so it's relevant in the thread whether you think it or not

[ekhibee]

Wasnt trying to be patronising, there have been no arguments, one persons opinion versus another opinion on a player, a scotland player so it's relevant in the thread whether you think it or not

I'm sure you weren't trying to be, but you were nevertheless. And it's not relevant to the thread if it's not talking about the Scotland v Russia game. There's far too many threads on hibs.net where people are allowed to go off on a tangent and end up discussing/debating/arguing about things which are not relevant to the subject of the thread.

[Allant1981]

I'm sure you weren't trying to be, but you were nevertheless. And it's not relevant to the thread if it's not talking about the Scotland v Russia game. There's far too many threads on hibs.net where people are allowed to go off on a tangent and end up discussing/debating/arguing about things which are not relevant to the subject of the thread.

Dont think I was but fair enough, so have we not to talk about scotland players, just the team? well that's one you can take up with the admins, they obviously dont think its an issue,if we stuck to each thread and that topic alone it would be very boring but that's just my opinion

[K-Zazu]

Every time I’ve seen Callum Mcgregor play for Scotland he’s been absolutely brutal, why does he get a game just because he plays for Celtic?

[CMurdoch]

I've seen you say this many times but it's unlikely because their golden generation as you call it was not an accident, they worked hard at it. If anything the success of the last few years will inspire more kids to get into football and make it.

They already have a brilliant young attacking midfielder at CSKA who will replace him long term.

Spookily has the same surname.
Very impressive that he plays for CSKA.
I like the Iceland centre forward who played against Celtic for AIK.
Nothing sexy about the way he plays, just a very strong effective player in the recent Iceland tradition.

[CMurdoch]

Uruguay ? Constantly better than us.

The population thing is a simple reply.

Why aren’t China and India amazing ?

New Zealand in rugby constantly prove it’s not all about population.

It’s CULTURE - meaning how people are brought up, education (zero private school players in squad), shambles of the SFA and that’s just to start.

If you want a longer list..off the top of my head

Jobs for the boys coaching at clubs
Old Firm dominance
Inept Refs
Awful TV deal
Project Brave or could say the previous and failed 2020 vision (google it)
Sectarianism being ignored
Poor infrastructure - how many clubs improve stadia?
League structure
Cup structure
National stadium fiasco
No one trusts the SFA / compliance officer etc
Lack of sponsors
Coach education poor


Uruguay - Their national team has been amazing given their population of 3.5 million but it has nothing to do with anything the Uruguayan football authorities are doing. Our domestic league is infinitely better than theirs by any measure and that includes the administration of the game by the governing body.
It’s not that Uruguayan football is any sort of egalitarian democracy. Their top domestic league averages 5,000 fans a game (compared to our 18k) despite 90% of the games being derbies (almost all the teams are from Montevideo). Uruguay’s “old firm” are Nacional (blue, white and red) and Peñarol, whose clashes are its clásicos, and which dwarf every other club in the country. TV rights are held by the cable channel Tenfield, owned by Paco Casal, the “super-agent” who also dominates sales of Uruguayan players abroad. Tenfield are only interested in games involving the two grandes (sound familiar?). There are also plentiful stories of corruption. The state of most smaller teams is precarious, loaded with debt and their players are paid late or never.


Why aren’t China and India amazing ?

Both have barely got started on the football front.
However i expect China to progress quickly in the next 15 years if their government decides that it is something that is important to them.
They are already making big inroads into other sports.


New Zealand in rugby constantly prove it’s not all about population.

Rugby Union is a minority world sport like Baseball so if you gear your sportsmen up to that one sport you can buck the population aspect.
The physical strength, size and speed of the Maori players has played a massive part in the New Zealand success in Rugby Union as the players with African backgrounds have assisted the Belgian national football team of late. The Scottish national teams of both sports have no such Ace.


I think all your other points are just the usual unevidenced blame raves that come up on here when Scotland and Hibs lose. Blame the administrators etc
The truth is Scotland need a Gareth Bale, Ronaldo type character to add to our good players to drag our team through at times of need.
Maybe that person will be a child of a recent African immigrant to Scotland.

Other stuff - New stands at the back of each goal at Hampden would create a wonderful partizan atmosphere not currently experienced and ditching the dreary dirge that is Flower of Scotland for the uplifting Scotland the Brave would also help. Alas both appear locked in for different reasons.

[CMurdoch]

Spoke to an old coach who thinks the difference is kids (him) used to turn up with boots under their arm after getting 2 busses, these days they get dropped off by parents, and he said you can see they are there more because the parents want it rather than them.

The adult Scotttish guys in my team will blow off a match because it's their wedding anniversary and they are taking their wife out.
Years ago you couldnae do that. You would play for your team and make it up to your wife another night.
African guy in my team. His wife, who he loved very much, died last year and he insisted on not missing any matches!
That's the gulf in attitude shown in an extreme manner.

[Colr]

Fully agree with all of that.

Me too. The SFA needs to be cleared out and reconstituted with a focus on developing the games grass roots through schools, kids clubs, etc.


Either that or a new body to take this role should be founded and the blazers left to one side.

[theonlywayisup]

Me too. The SFA needs to be cleared out and reconstituted with a focus on developing the games grass roots through schools, kids clubs, etc.


Either that or a new body to take this role should be founded and the blazers left to one side.

Only "kids clubs" if you have to play for the team within your catchment. We've got to stop the dads who take their kids from one boys club to another just so that they get noticed.

I've seen examples of every week a new kid being "recruited" and the nett effect was a weakening of club morale, disruption to kids who had been "loyal" for years up until then. We need kids to play football with their pals and remove this elitism that is being established from a very early age.

[Allant1981]

The adult Scotttish guys in my team will blow off a match because it's their wedding anniversary and they are taking their wife out.
Years ago you couldnae do that. You would play for your team and make it up to your wife another night.
African guy in my team. His wife, who he loved very much, died last year and he insisted on not missing any matches!
That's the gulf in attitude shown in an extreme manner.

Or its showing your wife some respect?

[lyonhibs]

The adult Scotttish guys in my team will blow off a match because it's their wedding anniversary and they are taking their wife out.
Years ago you couldnae do that. You would play for your team and make it up to your wife another night.
African guy in my team. His wife, who he loved very much, died last year and he insisted on not missing any matches!
That's the gulf in attitude shown in an extreme manner.

Wait what? Scottish football is on its arse because men have a weaker attitude than others, prioritising their wedding anniversary over playing football? Am I reading that right? :faf::faf:

We're just no very good. Got a few players that relatively regularly put in good performances at club level but they come to Scotland and the average calibre of player plummets, especially if we're looking to build from the back.

[Wilson]

Or its showing your wife some respect?

That's a very sappy post #metoo sentiment. Such men were described as "whipped" back in the day. Nowadays 'the future is female'. If your missus wasn't on a pedestal before I'm dann sure she is now.

Wedding anniversaries aren't something to celebrate. They are a time of mourning. Any right thinking man should be drowning his sorrows in regret at his lost freedom!

[SideBurns]

The attendance last night at Murrayfield for the rugby was 53K. That’s 21K more than the attendance at Hampden.

Crazy thing is that I’m genuinely not surprised one bit with vast difference between the attendances at both Hampden & Murrayfield last night. It’s clear as day that folk would rather go and watch a meaningless rugby friendly against an “average opponent” with Scotland fielding a very young / 2nd string side over the national football team who’s game had way more importance to it due to needing a win to stand any chance of qualifying automatically for Euro 2020.

My pal got tickets for his wife & bairn to go to Murrayfield. Prices were £15 & £1. That might go some way to explaining the difference in attendance size.

[One Day Soon]

My pal got tickets for his wife & bairn to go to Murrayfield. Prices were £15 & £1. That might go some way to explaining the difference in attendance size.


Scottish football imagines it can charge premium prices for second rate product. It can't. At least not if it wants to grow it can't.

[SHODAN]

Scotland international attendances have consistently been among the highest in Europe for many years despite a ***** product and ***** prices.

The fact that people are finally voting with their feet should scare the SFA into doing something, but they won't.

[Hermit Crab]

Scotland international attendances have consistently been among the highest in Europe for many years despite a ***** product and ***** prices.

The fact that people are finally voting with their feet should scare the SFA into doing something, but they won't.


The attendance on Monday will be higher as folk want to See the Belgian superstars.

[Allant1981]

That's a very sappy post #metoo sentiment. Such men were described as "whipped" back in the day. Nowadays 'the future is female'. If your missus wasn't on a pedestal before I'm dann sure she is now.

Wedding anniversaries aren't something to celebrate. They are a time of mourning. Any right thinking man should be drowning his sorrows in regret at his lost freedom!

Was mine yesterday, I did wonder why I was drinking more than normal!!!

[Phil MaGlass]

WTF does world class even mean. Means different things to most folk.

[Shrekko]

WTF does world class even mean. Means different things to most folk.

So true!

Robertson is one of the best left backs in the world though - would anyone dispute that?

[hibsbollah]

I had a free ticket and free transport for tomorrow's game, but I've offered it to a friend. I just can't face it.

[Antifa Hibs]

My pal got tickets for his wife & bairn to go to Murrayfield. Prices were £15 & £1. That might go some way to explaining the difference in attendance size.

Yep. SFA should look more towards SRU than just copy what the FA do.

SFA are offering no student tickets, pensioner tickets and kids tickets are 15 and under with adults being £27/£30.

SRU were offering U12 tickets, U18 tickets, concessions/students and adult tickets starting from £15.

End result being 21,000 more went to a rugby friendly than they did for a European football qualifier.

[SHODAN]

WTF does world class even mean. Means different things to most folk.

It's a term that only applies to non-Scottish athletes irregardless of ability.

[JimBHibees]

Yep. SFA should look more towards SRU than just copy what the FA do.

SFA are offering no student tickets, pensioner tickets and kids tickets are 15 and under with adults being £27/£30.

SRU were offering U12 tickets, U18 tickets, concessions/students and adult tickets starting from £15.

End result being 21,000 more went to a rugby friendly than they did for a European football qualifier.

Do SFA not offer cheaper kids tickets for behind the goal? They certainly did when I went through a number of years back. Just checked and £8 for kids tickets which isn't too bad.

What is true is the crowd was bad enough for Russia what is Hampden going to look like for both San Marino and Kazakhstan at home.

[cabbageandribs1875]

hopefully we can at least keep the scoreline respectable tonight :cb

[Jones28]

That's a very sappy post #metoo sentiment. Such men were described as "whipped" back in the day. Nowadays 'the future is female'. If your missus wasn't on a pedestal before I'm dann sure she is now.

Wedding anniversaries aren't something to celebrate. They are a time of mourning. Any right thinking man should be drowning his sorrows in regret at his lost freedom!

What a lot of ****ing slaver 😂