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1875-Hibernia
02-09-2019, 10:31 PM
*warning lengthy thread!*
I seen a newspaper article suggesting it has to be one or the other. I disagree and the short answer would be no. But let’s dive in a little deeper. (And longer)

ST Mirren, we went with Kamberi as lone striker and it worked in spells and Allan had a fine game also- but they had more shots as no cover in defence.

The Rangers, Kamberi dropped and Allan playing in the middle of the 3 behind Doidge. Steamrolled and a day to forget.

Morton, Kamberi loan striker and Allan playing behind him. Both Kamberi and Allan again have a good game, but the lack of defensive cover meant we shipped 3 goals and needed extra time.

St Johnstone, Two up front with Allan playing on the right. St J ended up with 54% possession and 18 shots at goal compared to our 9. Quiet game from Allan but still managed a few key passes. Ends 2.2 as pressure became too much.

Motherwell, Kamberi loan striker with Allan playing behind him. We had more possession but less shots and lost the match 3.0 due to a lack of defensive cover.

The above would suggest to flood the midfield with Allan floating behind striker. That leaves Kamberi on his own and we all know he plays better with 2 up front. So it opens the question again- does it need to be one or the other? Does Kamberi get dropped to accommodate Allan or does Allan get dropped to accommodate Kamberi? I say no and here’s why. Our wingers and current midfielders are simply not doing their job and covering the defence. Which is costing us games. But I think a 442 diamond would be perfect and would fit our two most influential players.

I’d go
GK - Marciano
RB - Naismith
CB - Hanlon
CB - Jackson
LB - Stevenson
DM - Whittaker
CM - Vela
CM - Murray
AM - Allan
ST - Kamberi
ST - Doidge

Gives us options to change the game to a different shape from the bench and the players on pitch to make it a 352. I actually think if tactics right then PH can turn it around...

neil7908
02-09-2019, 10:33 PM
They work best playing together. Both very smart players who have vision and the skill to unlock defences.

They are comfortably our most dangerous players and leaving either out would be a travesty.

Smartie
02-09-2019, 10:34 PM
If we drop one, or ideally both, we could get another RB or two into the team.

G B Young
02-09-2019, 10:36 PM
Kamberi's best form for us came when he and Allan were playing together under Lennon. Difference was we had a far stronger midfield alongside Allan, along with Boyle's pace out wide so there was a regular supply of chances for the strikers.

Eyrie
02-09-2019, 10:39 PM
Kamberi works well with Allan, so that's not the problem.

The problem up front is that Horgan is woefully out of form, Boyle is injured and Newell can't play the role he was signed for which leaves a kid as our only support for Kamberi and Allan.

Meanwhile, further back we have an injury riddled defence and a midfield so soft that it would hand over its pocket money to a boy band.

The Harp Awakes
02-09-2019, 10:44 PM
If we drop one, or ideally both, we could get another RB or two into the team.

Shhhhhh. Hecky might be reading this thread and think you're a genius.

mca
02-09-2019, 10:52 PM
Kamberi works well with Allan, so that's not the problem.

The problem up front is that Horgan is woefully out of form, Boyle is injured and Newell can't play the role he was signed for which leaves a kid as our only support for Kamberi and Allan.

Meanwhile, further back we have an injury riddled defence and a midfield so soft that it would hand over its pocket money to a boy band.


What happened to the levels of fitness never known before.. Injuries Galore... Boy Band i'll give you a :top marks

we are hibs
03-09-2019, 07:56 AM
Allan in behind Kamberi.

Drop mallan and play players in their natural positions. It really isnt difficult despite the managers best efforts to make it so.

1875-Hibernia
03-09-2019, 08:22 AM
All in agreement that neither can be left out. - PH is clearly in agreement with the rest of us (majority of games) but as he will know, It’s not as simple as saying they both work best together, as in football the right partnership needs the right support!

In order to play both the right balance needs to be found. That for me means we need players who are going to work hard in midfield and do their defensive duties, or I’m afraid it will need to be one or the other.

We can say play players in natural positions and all will be fine, but the problem is deeper than Whittaker playing Left Back or Allan playing Right Midfield. Mallan and all our wingers have shown this season that they are not capable of doing their defensive work and if a change in formation and personnel doesn’t happen soon, it’s going to be a very long season.

Hibernian Verse
03-09-2019, 08:22 AM
I’d go
GK - Marciano
RB - Naismith
CB - Hanlon
CB - Jackson
LB - Stevenson
DM - Whittaker
CM - Vela
CM - Murray
AM - Allan
ST - Kamberi
ST - Doidge

Gives us options to change the game to a different shape from the bench and the players on pitch to make it a 352. I actually think if tactics right then PH can turn it around...

Terrifying midfield.

Vela
Hallberg - Slivka
Allan

We are powderpuff as it is without playing an attacking midfielder in CM in front of Whittaker.

number9dream
03-09-2019, 08:31 AM
A more pertinent question is surely Allan or Mallan? I feel for Mallan a bit, being asked to play so deep. It's not his game at all.
I work with a St Mirren fanatic who tells me Alex Rae tried it with Mallan and they were in danger of being relegated. Jack Ross took over - moved Mallan high up the pitch and he almost single-handedly kept them up with his goals and assists before getting his move to Barnsley - where Heckingbottom largely ignored him.

One of the issues this season has been team shape, often going 4-3-3 which is the dominant formation these days but our various wide men have not flourished in an attacking sense and don't do enough to cover defensively - or the middle three aren't strong enough to cope without that assistance.

I'm not sure two up top is the answer either, if Doidge is going to be one of the pair, although it may be unfair to write him off so soon.

Allan and Mallan are talented players but if both play, it has to be higher up the pitch, so can we find a solution? It might not work every time, like away to Celtic & Rangers, but something along these lines.

Horgan, Middleton are more than handy impact players to come off the bench.

3-4-2-1 - for example...

Naismith Porteous Hanlon
James Vela Hallberg Stevenson
Allan Mallan
Kamberi

or a diamond with a double tip


Naismith Porteous Hanlon Stevenson
Vela
Hallberg Murray
Allan Mallan
Kamberi


If the manager wants to stick to 4-3-3 or go 4-4-2, then one of them has to drop out.

Fogzie
03-09-2019, 08:53 AM
From what I am seeing so far , both fullbacks are exposed.

Horgan seem to sit in no-mans land..i.e. he doesn't press and he doesn't cover back. Middleton is too far forward to provide the cover

Maybe what we need is to bring Newell back in from of Louis and stick Slivka (or James when he comes back) in front of Naismith/Gray/James

Then play Vela centre with Allen , Kamberi , Middleton

4-3-1-2

Since452
03-09-2019, 08:59 AM
I think Allan has been poor the last two games but the midfield in general has been non existent

1875-Hibernia
03-09-2019, 09:03 AM
A more pertinent question is surely Allan or Mallan? I feel for Mallan a bit, being asked to play so deep. It's not his game at all.
I work with a St Mirren fanatic who tells me Alex Rae tried it with Mallan and they were in danger of being relegated. Jack Ross took over - moved Mallan high up the pitch and he almost single-handedly kept them up with his goals and assists before getting his move to Barnsley - where Heckingbottom largely ignored him.

One of the issues this season has been team shape, often going 4-3-3 which is the dominant formation these days but our various wide men have not flourished in an attacking sense and don't do enough to cover defensively - or the middle three aren't strong enough to cope without that assistance.

I'm not sure two up top is the answer either, if Doidge is going to be one of the pair, although it may be unfair to write him off so soon.

Allan and Mallan are talented players but if both play, it has to be higher up the pitch, so can we find a solution? It might not work every time, like away to Celtic & Rangers, but something along these lines.

Horgan, Middleton are more than handy impact players to come off the bench.

3-4-2-1 - for example...

Naismith Porteous Hanlon
James Vela Hallberg Stevenson
Allan Mallan
Kamberi

or a diamond with a double tip


Naismith Porteous Hanlon Stevenson
Vela
Hallberg Murray
Allan Mallan
Kamberi


If the manager wants to stick to 4-3-3 or go 4-4-2, then one of them has to drop out.

I agree Allan and Mallan is a good question but in a way I believe it falls in to the Kamberi- Allan. As I don’t believe we have the players to play both Allan and Mallan to accommodate Kamberi. Also going with article I read after match report.

With the money spent on Doidge I doubt he’s going to remain on the bench. I also believe Kamberi stats show he’s better with 2 up front and support from behind/ wide. Maybe it will all change when Boyle comes back. But until then we need to find an answer soon!

1875-Hibernia
03-09-2019, 09:05 AM
Terrifying midfield.

Vela
Hallberg - Slivka
Allan

We are powderpuff as it is without playing an attacking midfielder in CM in front of Whittaker.

I honestly believe Whittaker has shown he is more than capable of playing there. I won’t go in to two of the individuals you have mentioned in replace as it takes away from the main body of the thread.

SingaporeHibs
03-09-2019, 09:18 AM
A more pertinent question is surely Allan or Mallan? I feel for Mallan a bit, being asked to play so deep. It's not his game at all.
I work with a St Mirren fanatic who tells me Alex Rae tried it with Mallan and they were in danger of being relegated. Jack Ross took over - moved Mallan high up the pitch and he almost single-handedly kept them up with his goals and assists before getting his move to Barnsley - where Heckingbottom largely ignored him.

One of the issues this season has been team shape, often going 4-3-3 which is the dominant formation these days but our various wide men have not flourished in an attacking sense and don't do enough to cover defensively - or the middle three aren't strong enough to cope without that assistance.

I'm not sure two up top is the answer either, if Doidge is going to be one of the pair, although it may be unfair to write him off so soon.

Allan and Mallan are talented players but if both play, it has to be higher up the pitch, so can we find a solution? It might not work every time, like away to Celtic & Rangers, but something along these lines.

Horgan, Middleton are more than handy impact players to come off the bench.

3-4-2-1 - for example...

Naismith Porteous Hanlon
James Vela Hallberg Stevenson
Allan Mallan
Kamberi

or a diamond with a double tip


Naismith Porteous Hanlon Stevenson
Vela
Hallberg Murray
Allan Mallan
Kamberi


If the manager wants to stick to 4-3-3 or go 4-4-2, then one of them has to drop out.

Yeah, I agree that Mallan or Allan is the better question and I think we know what the answer is for the starting 11. Mallan has rarely had a crack at likely his optimal position for us. We didn’t sign the right blend of midfielders at the start of last season to transition from the previous season which was a major mistake by Lennon and therefore he was asked to play a position deeper on the park that he doesn’t have the skill set for. Can’t tackle, won’t win many headers etc etc. I do feel for him though as his game was sacrificed. A whole season on and the midfield is still a shambles, the balance is still completely wrong and this is now Heck’s fault.
Allan and Kamberi are my first 2 picks on the team sheet, they are on the same wavelength.
Kamberi should always have a strike partner as well.
Then the manager should build the team around a formation that works them in.

RossScott1991
03-09-2019, 09:57 AM
If I was hecky this should be his team, the famous 3.5.2 return to save his job. Now we have this Naismith try him at RWB. Save his job

GK Marciano

CB - Jackson
CB -Porteous
CB -Hanlon

RWB – Naismith
LWB – Stevenson

CM – Mallan / Hallberg
CM – Vela / Slivka
CAM – Allan / Horgan / Middleton

ST – Kamberi
ST – Doidge / Shaw

hibeerealist
03-09-2019, 10:11 AM
*warning lengthy thread!*
I seen a newspaper article suggesting it has to be one or the other. I disagree and the short answer would be no. But let’s dive in a little deeper. (And longer)

ST Mirren, we went with Kamberi as lone striker and it worked in spells and Allan had a fine game also- but they had more shots as no cover in defence.

The Rangers, Kamberi dropped and Allan playing in the middle of the 3 behind Doidge. Steamrolled and a day to forget.

Morton, Kamberi loan striker and Allan playing behind him. Both Kamberi and Allan again have a good game, but the lack of defensive cover meant we shipped 3 goals and needed extra time.

St Johnstone, Two up front with Allan playing on the right. St J ended up with 54% possession and 18 shots at goal compared to our 9. Quiet game from Allan but still managed a few key passes. Ends 2.2 as pressure became too much.

Motherwell, Kamberi loan striker with Allan playing behind him. We had more possession but less shots and lost the match 3.0 due to a lack of defensive cover.

The above would suggest to flood the midfield with Allan floating behind striker. That leaves Kamberi on his own and we all know he plays better with 2 up front. So it opens the question again- does it need to be one or the other? Does Kamberi get dropped to accommodate Allan or does Allan get dropped to accommodate Kamberi? I say no and here’s why. Our wingers and current midfielders are simply not doing their job and covering the defence. Which is costing us games. But I think a 442 diamond would be perfect and would fit our two most influential players.

I’d go
GK - Marciano
RB - Naismith
CB - Hanlon
CB - Jackson
LB - Stevenson
DM - Whittaker
CM - Vela
CM - Murray
AM - Allan
ST - Kamberi
ST - Doidge

Gives us options to change the game to a different shape from the bench and the players on pitch to make it a 352. I actually think if tactics right then PH can turn it around...

You seem to have watched all the games and come up with your team, IF you did watch all the games how can you put Hanlon in there? Doidge?

Maybe your Football Manager training needs updated!!!

eastcoasthibby
03-09-2019, 10:27 AM
Has Mallan got something on Heckinbottom from their Barnsley time together ??? cos it seems that for some reason he seems like a first choice starter in midfield .....even though his performances and contribution is a distinct negative feature in our midfield ...

1875-Hibernia
03-09-2019, 10:39 AM
You seem to have watched all the games and come up with your team, IF you did watch all the games how can you put Hanlon in there? Doidge?

Maybe your Football Manager training needs updated!!!

Yes I have watched all games. The team is purely my opinion based on what I’ve seen. Hanlon is in there for me as I have previously mentioned in another post, that putting Porteous in to this team will do nothing in the long run for him as we need to tighten up first.

Doidge is in there, again as previously mentioned because we spent a lot of money on him and I don’t see him warming the bench. Also I believe Kamberi works better with a strike partner.

Without a doubt my training does need updated and I could certainly add to the coaching badges and experience I already gain. I’d be interested to know what team you would place to accommodate both Kamberi and Allan?

1875-Hibernia
03-09-2019, 10:42 AM
Has Mallan got something on Heckinbottom from their Barnsley time together ??? cos it seems that for some reason he seems like a first choice starter in midfield .....even though his performances and contribution is a distinct negative feature in our midfield ...

Just my opinion but I think it’s because Mallan is our best Cm after Allan of course. The issue is Allan is better and Mallan is having to play deep. Personally I’d drop him though.

Since452
03-09-2019, 10:53 AM
You seem to have watched all the games and come up with your team, IF you did watch all the games how can you put Hanlon in there? Doidge?

Maybe your Football Manager training needs updated!!!

Hanlon, Rocky, Mallan need dropped imo

Smartie
03-09-2019, 10:55 AM
Has Mallan got something on Heckinbottom from their Barnsley time together ??? cos it seems that for some reason he seems like a first choice starter in midfield .....even though his performances and contribution is a distinct negative feature in our midfield ...

I've wondered at times if Mallan has some sort of contract that states he must play every week.

As bad as he can be, he's never dropped.

WeeRussell
03-09-2019, 12:04 PM
100% no. They are our two best players and responsible for most of what little has been worth watching from our team so far this season. Our team being very poor doesn't equate to those two not being able to play together.

ancient hibee
03-09-2019, 12:12 PM
Can’t think why anyone would suggest a choice between them is needed.They are totally different players in totally different positions.

Bobby's Cinema
03-09-2019, 12:14 PM
Team has to be built around them both in their strongest positions. Simple as that.

Failure to recognise that we need a DM is going to be the ultimate undoing. Still feel that was a real poor call to let Marv go.

Before the summer I would have said that key problem areas were DM and a better striking option.
Clear that these haven't been addressed.

Middleton IMO is a good signing but again being asked to do a job he is unfamiliar way too defensive for me having only seen him v StJ.

Lots of square legs in round holes all over the park. Makes me question what the plan was at the outset.

Smartie
03-09-2019, 12:18 PM
Can’t think why anyone would suggest a choice between them is needed.They are totally different players in totally different positions.

They are also quite often brilliant together. We need more partnerships like these in our team - a player who can carve a defence open with a pass and a striker who can get in behind defences and finish.

We need to build a platform to let these 2 play to their potential.

Liberal Hibby
03-09-2019, 12:23 PM
Yeah, I agree that Mallan or Allan is the better question and I think we know what the answer is for the starting 11. Mallan has rarely had a crack at likely his optimal position for us. We didn’t sign the right blend of midfielders at the start of last season to transition from the previous season which was a major mistake by Lennon and therefore he was asked to play a position deeper on the park that he doesn’t have the skill set for. Can’t tackle, won’t win many headers etc etc. I do feel for him though as his game was sacrificed. A whole season on and the midfield is still a shambles, the balance is still completely wrong and this is now Heck’s fault.
Allan and Kamberi are my first 2 picks on the team sheet, they are on the same wavelength.
Kamberi should always have a strike partner as well.
Then the manager should build the team around a formation that works them in.

I've been saying for a while too that the question is Mallan and Allan. They both need to play centrally just behind the forwards for their ability in and around the box. But neither is a defensive midfielder or an enforcer. So I think it is one or the other. Getting the balance in midfield is the key to tightening up at the back and creating more going forward. And I'm not convinced Heckingbottom has a way of doing that.

ancient hibee
03-09-2019, 12:29 PM
They are also quite often brilliant together. We need more partnerships like these in our team - a player who can carve a defence open with a pass and a striker who can get in behind defences and finish.

We need to build a platform to let these 2 play to their potential.

If they are not the first two names on the team sheet I’m afraid the manager has lost the plot.As you say they are central to how the team play and it has to be constructed around them to give them the support to play.

SquashedFrogg
03-09-2019, 12:37 PM
Hanlon, Rocky, Mallan need dropped imo

Stick Flo on the list for me. Dreadful again on Saturday. Slivka is another who I'm struggling with.

Since452
03-09-2019, 01:38 PM
The basis of a good team as everyone knows is a strong spine. Ours is disjointed. Marciano not impressing me at all just now, i think Porteous would help, hopefully Mallberg does and Scotty needs to be behind feeding Flo. Plenty of work to be done during this international break.

1875-Hibernia
03-09-2019, 01:40 PM
Can’t think why anyone would suggest a choice between them is needed.They are totally different players in totally different positions.

They are players in different positions who work best playing beside each; without a doubt. The question was asked and raised by pundits and reporters as there’s nothing behind them to cover the defence.

Ie, if a flat 442 to suit Kamberi, then where does Allan play? As in that would leave us short. If it’s a 451- with Allan behind striker, is that lone striker Kamberi. I thought it was a fair point which was raised after the St J game and wondered what fans opinions were. It’s clear everyone wants both to play, including PH. But it’s how to build a team round that is the main question.

Keith_M
03-09-2019, 01:45 PM
We should play both, but we need to put players with more dig in Midfield to make it happen.

Whether we have players good enough is the question.

ancient hibee
03-09-2019, 01:47 PM
Don't think it's numbers or formations to suit it's having decent players and at the moment we have one decent midfielder.Allan in midfield worked fine behind Kamberi and McLaren.

BILLYHIBS
03-09-2019, 01:54 PM
Kamberi is at his best running onto a through ball played just ahead of him so he can run onto it and blast it into the net

Scott Allan is just the man to provide the ammunition

I would play them both

My only concern watching the last couple of games is that even although Scott Allan has chipped in with a few goals already this season he sometimes has a look of exasperation as if he could do with some help from others playing along beside him

WeeRussell
03-09-2019, 03:14 PM
Stick Flo on the list for me. Dreadful again on Saturday. Slivka is another who I'm struggling with.

Wasn't there on Saturday passed so can't comment on that.. but 'again' as in since being one of the very few coming close to pass marks against St Johnstone?!

Bright_Hibee
03-09-2019, 03:38 PM
No. Kamberi on his own up front with Allan in the hole behind him. Can do that as a 4-3-3 or a 4-2-3-1. Defensive midfielder is where we need to address.

The 90+2
03-09-2019, 03:55 PM
What we need is Allan to play in the middle to link up partnerships with certain players including Flo’ week in week out. Changing the team every week disturbs this, we don’t seem to attack or defend as a team it’s every man for themselves.

MWHIBBIES
03-09-2019, 04:01 PM
Stick Flo on the list for me. Dreadful again on Saturday. Slivka is another who I'm struggling with.

Again? When was the other time? Been excellent this season, definitely should not be dropped.

1875-Hibernia
03-09-2019, 05:31 PM
What we need is Allan to play in the middle to link up partnerships with certain players including Flo’ week in week out. Changing the team every week disturbs this, we don’t seem to attack or defend as a team it’s every man for themselves.

Agree with this and I think there’s no reason for either to be dropped. More a case of getting the right players around them.

Jones28
03-09-2019, 08:00 PM
Stick Flo on the list for me. Dreadful again on Saturday. Slivka is another who I'm struggling with.

You’re nuts, he’s the difference between bumbling around in the bottom
six and achieving anything this season.

lord bunberry
03-09-2019, 10:34 PM
I really feel for Mallan as he’s a good attacking midfielder being asked to play a deeper role that clearly doesn’t suit him. Some of his displays last season were excellent, but he’s like a man short in the role he’s being asked to play. The lack of a ball winning midfielder will continue to make our whole midfield look weak.

Smartie
03-09-2019, 10:43 PM
I really feel for Mallan as he’s a good attacking midfielder being asked to play a deeper role that clearly doesn’t suit him. Some of his displays last season were excellent, but he’s like a man short in the role he’s being asked to play. The lack of a ball winning midfielder will continue to make our whole midfield look weak.

I agree with every word.

Remember that game at St Mirren - he was terrible playing deep for an hour, was pushed up for the last half hour and was outstanding, possibly motm.

I think he should be dropped but I do feel for him, he's being hung out to dry.

lord bunberry
03-09-2019, 10:48 PM
I agree with every word.

Remember that game at St Mirren - he was terrible playing deep for an hour, was pushed up for the last half hour and was outstanding, possibly motm.

I think he should be dropped but I do feel for him, he's being hung out to dry.
The game away at Dundee he was also brilliant. The guy is a cracking player, but I’d also drop him rather than continue to flog him in a position that he can’t play. Him coming on for Allan for the final 20 minutes would be the way I’d go just now.