Iain Duncan Smith aka Herr Goebbels

[Torto7]

Proposes that the pension age should be raised to 75.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-raise-state-pension-age-18953679

What a lovely man, if he isn't attacking disabled people. He seems intent on making the masses work until they drop.

If I could have 5 mins alone in a room with him with no repercussions it would make me extremely happy.

[Cataplana]

Proposes that the pension age should be raised to 75.

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tories-raise-state-pension-age-18953679

What a lovely man, if he isn't attacking disabled people. He seems intent on making the masses work until they drop.

If I could have 5 mins alone in a room with him with no repercussions it would make me extremely happy.

Maybe if you had five minutes in the room with him, he'd be able to explain to you that Goebells was not the Minister for Pensions.

Otherwise, I'm right behind you, the man is an utter welt.

[wpj]

I had to deal with him and his office in a professional capacity, a horrible bullying man. Also dealt with Stella Creasey who took time to listen while still making her point.

[Torto7]

Maybe if you had five minutes in the room with him, he'd be able to explain to you that Goebells was not the Minister for Pensions.

Otherwise, I'm right behind you, the man is an utter welt.


The Goebbels link was more to do with the propaganda that was thrown down everyone's throats whilst he was in charge of the DWP.

Anyway indeed he is a welt.

[Torto7]

I had to deal with him and his office in a professional capacity, a horrible bullying man. Also dealt with Stella Creasey who took time to listen while still making her point.

As have I. I used to do some voluntary work for the Citizens Advice and had this prick writing back sarcastic laden responses, as I tried to get a chap who was recently blinded in one eye from a stroke into the support group of ESA.

His cronies at Atos had found the guy fit to work. IDS didn't seem to have a problem with that.

[Northernhibee]

So those of us who still have 30-40 years to work see previous generations retire in their early 60s, having enjoyed cheap housing, an employment market that is easier to get into, a fully functioning NHS and get the benefit of it for their whole lives.

The ladder is then pulled up for future generations who will get Brexit, the death of the NHS, work til you drop, the gig economy and paying off the debt that has been left to the country. Disabled? Try convincing ATOS that. Made redundant? Wait two months for Universal Credit. Landlord left you an uninhabitable property that you'll never have hope to buy? That's their right.

**** IDS and **** the Tory party.

[Smartie]

It would be fair to say this is not something I agree with. It's disgraceful in fact.

I do think there is a reasonable conversation to be had about other age related matters though. I don't think it would be a bad idea for older drivers to have some sort of revalidation test to ensure they still fit to drive.

My controversial opinion is that we should stop people voting at a certain age as well. Our population is getting older in nature and their political choices make it harder than ever for the youth to succeed and actually care for our ageing population. Considering they aren't going to be around for all that long to see the consequences of their choices, I think we as a society need to have a robust conversation about what we're prepared to be burdened with.

On a personal basis I'd be happy to give up the vote at 65 - 70 and let the youngsters take control of their own future. In exchange for not overpowering their wishes with my sepia-tinged memories of an irrelevant age, it would be nice if they could show some appreciation and look out for us - including allowing us not to have to wait until 75 to draw down that pension.

It would be interesting to see what effect this would have on the UK - think Scottish independence referendum, think Brexit and Europe and think about the likeliness of continuing to return Conservative governments.

[Mon Dieu4]

Life expectancy for a male in Scotland is 77 (71 in Glasgow), so you can knock your pan in for close to 60 years to enjoy 2 years worth of pension before you die or just be dead before you can even claim it, sounds like a great deal and typical Tories, look after the folk that won't need to work til that age and **** everyone else

[RyeSloan]

Life expectancy for a male in Scotland is 77 (71 in Glasgow), so you can knock your pan in for close to 60 years to enjoy 2 years worth of pension before you die or just be dead before you can even claim it, sounds like a great deal and typical Tories, look after the folk that won't need to work til that age and **** everyone else

Or you can look at the cost of the current pension provision and see the huge increases in numbers expected to claim and see that actually this is a real problem.

Not that I agree automatically knocking the age up to such an extent is the correct answer but the problem is real enough and it’s not one that going to go away nor is it one that just castigating IDS over (for all that may be deserved) is going to change.

Never before have we seen such a demographic shift and the provision and affordability of pensions and elderly care is a huge and growing issue that no politician seems capable of getting close to addressing yet it is probably one of the biggest single challenges the country faces.

[Mon Dieu4]

Or you can look at the cost of the current pension provision and see the huge increases in numbers expected to claim and see that actually this is a real problem.

Not that I agree automatically knocking the age up to such an extent is the correct answer but the problem is real enough and it’s not one that going to go away nor is it one that just castigating IDS over (for all that may be deserved) is going to change.

Never before have we seen such a demographic shift and the provision and affordability of pensions and elderly care is a huge and growing issue that no politician seems capable of getting close to addressing yet it is probably one of the biggest single challenges the country faces.

I get that there are hard questions to be asked, but would suggest that as we already have one of the worst pensions in the developed world as it is we should find other savings(trident) that will actually enhance people's lives.

Just scunners me that the folk that make these decision will in no way be affected by them and that younger people today are being royally ****ed over for things that aren't their fault

[Smartie]

For all I couldn't disagree more with the proposal he puts forward, I do welcome anyone getting the subject of "how we look after our ageing population" out there.

I find his proposal abhorrent, but it is a solution to a problem none of us can deny exists - and there is a ridiculous amount of denial out there.

We'll probably find the usual suspects come out with the answer being Brexit, Scottish independence and the like but I do think that the UK has to have a serious public conversation about how we get control of this problem, as I believe this problem is leading to just about every other political problem that exists in the UK today.

[Cataplana]

I get that there are hard questions to be asked, but would suggest that as we already have one of the worst pensions in the developed world as it is we should find other savings(trident) that will actually enhance people's lives.

Just scunners me that the folk that make these decision will in no way be affected by them and that younger people today are being royally ****ed over for things that aren't their fault

When the old age pension was introduced, the pensioner was expected to live another five years.

Likewise with most people dieing by age 50, few would actually survive to claim it.

Old age pensions in their current format are not sustainable.

[Bangkok Hibby]

So those of us who still have 30-40 years to work see previous generations retire in their early 60s, having enjoyed cheap housing, an employment market that is easier to get into, a fully functioning NHS and get the benefit of it for their whole lives.

The ladder is then pulled up for future generations who will get Brexit, the death of the NHS, work til you drop, the gig economy and paying off the debt that has been left to the country. Disabled? Try convincing ATOS that. Made redundant? Wait two months for Universal Credit. Landlord left you an uninhabitable property that you'll never have hope to buy? That's their right.

**** IDS and **** the Tory party.


And yet people continue to vote for these utterly reprehensible, morally bankrupt, (deleted)

[Fife-Hibee]

Tories want to increase the state pension to 75, but they won't dare put pressure on big business to open up private pension fund schemes for their workers.

Tory policy is to simply hope that you all die early.

[James310]

Tories want to increase the state pension to 75, but they won't dare put pressure on big business to open up private pension fund schemes for their workers.

Tory policy is to simply hope that you all die early.

What do you mean putting pressure on big business opening up private pension fund schemes?

Auto Enrollment means nearly all private firms have to offer a pension scheme for their employees.

Do you have an example of what you mean?

[Hibrandenburg]

It would be fair to say this is not something I agree with. It's disgraceful in fact.

I do think there is a reasonable conversation to be had about other age related matters though. I don't think it would be a bad idea for older drivers to have some sort of revalidation test to ensure they still fit to drive.

My controversial opinion is that we should stop people voting at a certain age as well. Our population is getting older in nature and their political choices make it harder than ever for the youth to succeed and actually care for our ageing population. Considering they aren't going to be around for all that long to see the consequences of their choices, I think we as a society need to have a robust conversation about what we're prepared to be burdened with.

On a personal basis I'd be happy to give up the vote at 65 - 70 and let the youngsters take control of their own future. In exchange for not overpowering their wishes with my sepia-tinged memories of an irrelevant age, it would be nice if they could show some appreciation and look out for us - including allowing us not to have to wait until 75 to draw down that pension.

It would be interesting to see what effect this would have on the UK - think Scottish independence referendum, think Brexit and Europe and think about the likeliness of continuing to return Conservative governments.

I'm not sure I feel comfortable with not granting senior citizens the vote. It would be a sure fire way to ensure they get ****ed over at every opportunity. Unthinkable.

[RyeSloan]

What do you mean putting pressure on big business opening up private pension fund schemes?

Auto Enrollment means nearly all private firms have to offer a pension scheme for their employees.

Do you have an example of what you mean?

You mean the example of where auto enrolment has ensured millions of people that previously didn’t have a pension now have one?

Or the example where it is now mandatory for companies that have even just one employee? Ensuring that many many people that never had access to a company pension now have one?

Or mandatory rates that employers must now contribute?

Those types of examples?

[lord bunberry]

Or you can look at the cost of the current pension provision and see the huge increases in numbers expected to claim and see that actually this is a real problem.

Not that I agree automatically knocking the age up to such an extent is the correct answer but the problem is real enough and it’s not one that going to go away nor is it one that just castigating IDS over (for all that may be deserved) is going to change.

Never before have we seen such a demographic shift and the provision and affordability of pensions and elderly care is a huge and growing issue that no politician seems capable of getting close to addressing yet it is probably one of the biggest single challenges the country faces.
Are other EU countries going down the route of raising the pension age? I genuinely don’t know, but if they aren’t how are they dealing with the problem? The fact that our state pension is so low should mean we have more leeway than other countries.

[RyeSloan]

I get that there are hard questions to be asked, but would suggest that as we already have one of the worst pensions in the developed world as it is we should find other savings(trident) that will actually enhance people's lives.

Just scunners me that the folk that make these decision will in no way be affected by them and that younger people today are being royally ****ed over for things that aren't their fault

Ahh Trident, of course...apart from that money seems to get spent many times over for so many things (was reducing that ‘notional’ deficit on here only a few days ago) and is no where near enough.

As the report suggest the cost is rising all the time and will be over £100bn shortly.

To suggest this can be found from ‘savings’ is ridiculously wide of the mark and that’s before you consider elderly care costs.

As I said the proposal (put forward by a think tank, not the Tories) does not seem sensible or supportable as it seems rather crude but the problem already exists and is only going to grow.

That will require some serious thinking on what needs to be done rather than name calling or moaning about the privileged that won’t be effected or indeed, god forbid, not blaming it all on the Tories.

[brianmc]

How many job opportunities will there be for this 70+year old workforce I wonder......

Only a matter of time until a future IDS type suggests introducing a mandatory euthanasia age - that'll fix the pension crisis!

[James310]

You mean the example of where auto enrolment has ensured millions of people that previously didn’t have a pension now have one?

Or the example where it is now mandatory for companies that have even just one employee? Ensuring that many many people that never had access to a company pension now have one?

Or mandatory rates that employers must now contribute?

Those types of examples?

Maybe?

But let's blame the Tories for pretty much everything though as it's much more fun.

[Smartie]

Are other EU countries going down the route of raising the pension age? I genuinely don’t know, but if they aren’t how are they dealing with the problem? The fact that our state pension is so low should mean we have more leeway than other countries.

I'm sure it's been suggested in France.

I'm also sure their retirement age is something that they consider sacrosanct, and when such an idea is put forward there are protests bordering on riots as a result.

[RyeSloan]

Are other EU countries going down the route of raising the pension age? I genuinely don’t know, but if they aren’t how are they dealing with the problem? The fact that our state pension is so low should mean we have more leeway than other countries.

Most are increasing age...Germany and Spain similar to UK I think. Germany also reducing the max amount by a few percentage points although their system is quite different from the UK.

It’s certainly not just a UK issue and comparisons are always tricky considering the different systems and the fact that the UK also has a free at point of use health system etc.

That said I’m pretty sure that on the whole the UK still ranks rather poorly but on the flip side that doesn’t mean any of the rest of the countries above the UK have any more of a clue how to sustain their levels as their populations age either!

[James310]

Fair enough the admins deleting the abuse I got (such a pleasant comment as well) but if that poster wants to explain what opening up private pensions means armed with the knowledge of auto enrollment changes over the years then I am all ears?

Do you mean opening up defined benefit schemes for new members or is it something else?

[Mr Grieves]

Maybe?

But let's blame the Tories for pretty much everything though as it's much more fun.

Imagine if anyone linked with the SNP or the Scottish government suggested the retirement age in an independent Scotland would be 75. Imagine your reaction. Just imagine it. :fuming::blah::soapbox::furious::timebomb:

[James310]

Imagine if anyone linked with the SNP or the Scottish government suggested the retirement age in an independent Scotland would be 75. Imagine your reaction. Just imagine it. :fuming::blah::soapbox::furious::timebomb:

You mean the same reaction that majority on here have? Comparing them to Nazis and the like?

My comment was specific to the Tories not putting pressure on big business to open up private pension schemes, whatever that means.

[Mr Grieves]

Are other EU countries going down the route of raising the pension age? I genuinely don’t know, but if they aren’t how are they dealing with the problem? The fact that our state pension is so low should mean we have more leeway than other countries.

Here you go, pretty similar throughout the EU. The country closest to the suggestion to raise it to 75 would be Denmark raising it to 72 in 2035.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_in_Europe

But we do have the lowest state pension of any developed country. Even when pensioners have a private pension their income is still below the OECD average.


https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/dec/05/oecd-uk-has-lowest-state-pension-of-any-developed-country

[Mibbes Aye]

Ahh Trident, of course...apart from that money seems to get spent many times over for so many things (was reducing that ‘notional’ deficit on here only a few days ago) and is no where near enough.

As the report suggest the cost is rising all the time and will be over £100bn shortly.

To suggest this can be found from ‘savings’ is ridiculously wide of the mark and that’s before you consider elderly care costs.

As I said the proposal (put forward by a think tank, not the Tories) does not seem sensible or supportable as it seems rather crude but the problem already exists and is only going to grow.

That will require some serious thinking on what needs to be done rather than name calling or moaning about the privileged that won’t be effected or indeed, god forbid, not blaming it all on the Tories.

This goes beyond party politics for me. I think there is good argument for a Royal Commission to look at social care. England did it to an extent with Dilnot some years back but never really fully implemented the findings.

It needs to be taken out of party political diatribes and looked at coldly and objectively. The over 75 population will treble over the next decade or two. Social care is critical in easing the impact on hospitals that aren’t capable of dealing with the rise in unscheduled admissions. It is also critical in ensuring people can be safely discharged when medically fit.

Social care is the neglected element of caring for our elders, neglected financially but also never acknowledged in debate or discussion. It is long overdue being acknowledged.

[MagicSwirlingShip]

Been on the cards for a while this.

It should be part of the school curriculum that kids should start privately planning for their retirement as soon as they enter the working world.

[mjhibby]

Just unbelievable. There is a few decent Tories who realise the harm their policies they inflict but this tops the lot. What I detest most about the Tory cabinet of millionaires is they pass laws that are highly unlikely to affect them. No doubt IDS will have millions stashed for a rainy day. Typical nasty tory. I despise everything they stand for. Ruth Davidson looked as if she may actually be a reasonable Tory by blanking bumbling Boris but career is more important than morals and just changed her tune. Id be devasted if any of my friends and family voted Tory as the are the most horrible, entitled and frankly upper class morons who have given the biggest crisis in my lifetime due to needing to put farage the fibber out to grass. Thanks a lot for creating the most divided society possible. Cretins doesn't even scratch the surface of the duplicitous and disgusting party.

[Dalianwanda]

Just unbelievable. There is a few decent Tories who realise the harm their policies they inflict but this tops the lot. What I detest most about the Tory cabinet of millionaires is they pass laws that are highly unlikely to affect them. No doubt IDS will have millions stashed for a rainy day. Typical nasty tory. I despise everything they stand for. Ruth Davidson looked as if she may actually be a reasonable Tory by blanking bumbling Boris but career is more important than morals and just changed her tune. Id be devasted if any of my friends and family voted Tory as the are the most horrible, entitled and frankly upper class morons who have given the biggest crisis in my lifetime due to needing to put farage the fibber out to grass. Thanks a lot for creating the most divided society possible. Cretins doesn't even scratch the surface of the duplicitous and disgusting party.

:top marks Exactly this....Apart from any i know aren’t upper class just have a fair bit of cash which gives them the illusion of upper class.

[murray26]

Just unbelievable. There is a few decent Tories who realise the harm their policies they inflict but this tops the lot. What I detest most about the Tory cabinet of millionaires is they pass laws that are highly unlikely to affect them. No doubt IDS will have millions stashed for a rainy day. Typical nasty tory. I despise everything they stand for. Ruth Davidson looked as if she may actually be a reasonable Tory by blanking bumbling Boris but career is more important than morals and just changed her tune. Id be devasted if any of my friends and family voted Tory as the are the most horrible, entitled and frankly upper class morons who have given the biggest crisis in my lifetime due to needing to put farage the fibber out to grass. Thanks a lot for creating the most divided society possible. Cretins doesn't even scratch the surface of the duplicitous and disgusting party.

Well said my friend👍 It defies belief that they keep getting voted in.

[ronaldo7]

Ahh Trident, of course...apart from that money seems to get spent many times over for so many things (was reducing that ‘notional’ deficit on here only a few days ago) and is no where near enough.

As the report suggest the cost is rising all the time and will be over £100bn shortly.

To suggest this can be found from ‘savings’ is ridiculously wide of the mark and that’s before you consider elderly care costs.

As I said the proposal (put forward by a think tank, not the Tories) does not seem sensible or supportable as it seems rather crude but the problem already exists and is only going to grow.

That will require some serious thinking on what needs to be done rather than name calling or moaning about the privileged that won’t be effected or indeed, god forbid, not blaming it all on the Tories.


Maybe?

But let's blame the Tories for pretty much everything though as it's much more fun.

I thought I'd see posts from the Tory party supporters trying to deflect from their own government ministers proposals. The think tank that brought us the Universal credit, now recommends moving pension entitlement to 75, but let's not blame the Tories.

When are you guys going to own your parties policies?

I know RS had at least tried to look at the issue, however he lets himself down with the Lets not blame the tories jibe.

The Tories have brought the UK to the brink of disaster but let's not blame them though.

They'll be on next, blaming the lack of people to run the health service on anyone but themselves. The NHS in London, currently has the most vacancies that it's ever had in it's history, but let's not blame the Tories.

It's just grievance politics though.

Take some ownership of "your parties policies".

[James310]

I thought I'd see posts from the Tory party supporters trying to deflect from their own government ministers proposals. The think tank that brought us the Universal credit, now recommends moving pension entitlement to 75, but let's not blame the Tories.

When are you guys going to own your parties policies?

I know RS had at least tried to look at the issue, however he lets himself down with the Lets not blame the tories jibe.

The Tories have brought the UK to the brink of disaster but let's not blame them though.

They'll be on next, blaming the lack of people to run the health service on anyone but themselves. The NHS in London, currently has the most vacancies that it's ever had in it's history, but let's not blame the Tories.

It's just grievance politics though.

Take some ownership of "your parties policies".

Is it Tory policy though? Or one suggestion from a think tank to solve the pension crisis we face? Which is it?

Own which one it is.

[ronaldo7]

Is it Tory policy though? Or one suggestion from a think tank to solve the pension crisis we face? Which is it?

Own which one it is.

From small acorns etc.

This think tank came up with Universal Credit...How's that going?

Time you owned your parties policies. Rape clause, Hostile environment, the lot, as that's what you vote for.

[James310]

From small acorns etc.

This think tank came up with Universal Credit...How's that going?

Time you owned your parties policies. Rape clause, Hostile environment, the lot, as that's what you vote for.

So it's not policy at all, it's one suggestion made a few days ago.

How would you solve the pension crisis, would be great to hear some alternative non Tory views?

[lapsedhibee]

So it's not policy at all, it's one suggestion made a few days ago.

How would you solve the pension crisis, would be great to hear some alternative non Tory views?

As one tool, put taxes up. Let the ******* who say that they'll leave the country if taxes go up leave.

[James310]

Also my comment about blame the Tories for pretty much everything was specifically aimed at the comment about the Tories not opening up private pension funds, still waiting for someone to explain what that actually means. So hard to blame someone or something for something that made no sense in the first place.

[James310]

As one tool, put taxes up. Let the ******* who say that they'll leave the country if taxes go up leave.

Auto enrollment already takes a % of your income, it's 3% employees and 5% employer I believe.

If that's what you mean it's happening now.

Or do you mean something else?

[lapsedhibee]

Auto enrollment already takes a % of your income, it's 3% employees and 5% employer I believe.

If that's what you mean it's happening now.

Or do you mean something else?

Presumably that's not enough, if people or tanks are suggesting 75 as a retirement age. You might easily work to 75 if you're a hedge fund manager, nurse I don't think so. But I suspect the wider issue of elderly care requires an increase in general taxation.

[Hibrandenburg]

As one tool, put taxes up. Let the ******* who say that they'll leave the country if taxes go up leave.

:agree: In Germany almost the half of earnings are deducted for tax and social security costs. I've no problem with this because I know I get good healthcare and a decent amount to live on when I retire. I also know that the money is used to support socially weak fellow citizens or support me should I fall on hard times.

You only get out what you pay in.

[ronaldo7]

So it's not policy at all, it's one suggestion made a few days ago.

How would you solve the pension crisis, would be great to hear some alternative non Tory views?

So, your party's got us into a pension crisis. At least you're learning.

I'll give you two things to start with.

Remove the people who caused the crisis,(that's a work in progress) and change the immigration policy.

[James310]

Presumably that's not enough, if people or tanks are suggesting 75 as a retirement age. You might easily work to 75 if you're a hedge fund manager, nurse I don't think so. But I suspect the wider issue of elderly care requires an increase in general taxation.

Auto Enrollment covers a private pension, it's the State pension that's the problem.

The state pension could be means tested so anyone with a private pension over £X does not receive it, but that brings all kind of other complications around values as a private pension could be worth £X one day and £Y the next. I also imagine those who have paid NI for years and also worked hard and saved for years in a private pension will not be best pleased.

[ronaldo7]

Auto Enrollment covers a private pension, it's the State pension that's the problem.

The state pension could be means tested so anyone with a private pension over £X does not receive it, but that brings all kind of other complications around values as a private pension could be worth £X one day and £Y the next. I also imagine those who have paid NI for years and also worked hard and saved for years in a private pension will not be best pleased.

Your party done it to the Waspi women. Robbed them of their pensions.

[Cataplana]

Auto Enrollment covers a private pension, it's the State pension that's the problem.

The state pension could be means tested so anyone with a private pension over £X does not receive it, but that brings all kind of other complications around values as a private pension could be worth £X one day and £Y the next. I also imagine those who have paid NI for years and also worked hard and saved for years in a private pension will not be best pleased.

Having factored in the state pension in all my pension savings, that would be a bit of a blow. Doesn't mean it won't happen though.

[James310]

Your party done it to the Waspi women. Robbed them of their pensions.

It's just one grievance after another. Anything else to add to the list?

"And this takes us to the crux of the problem – we now have two competing visions of independence. One comes in the form of politicians like Ms Sturgeon and Patrick Harvie of the Greens. It’s considered, pragmatic, non-threatening; it wants to woo opponents. It wants a progressive, fair and equal Scotland, and believes the way to improve the lot of ordinary people is to leave behind the broken Westminster system. The other is Trumpian in nature and thrives on offence rather than persuasion. It wants independence at any cost."

I think you are certainly more the latter one.

[RyeSloan]

I thought I'd see posts from the Tory party supporters trying to deflect from their own government ministers proposals. The think tank that brought us the Universal credit, now recommends moving pension entitlement to 75, but let's not blame the Tories.

When are you guys going to own your parties policies?

I know RS had at least tried to look at the issue, however he lets himself down with the Lets not blame the tories jibe.

The Tories have brought the UK to the brink of disaster but let's not blame them though.

They'll be on next, blaming the lack of people to run the health service on anyone but themselves. The NHS in London, currently has the most vacancies that it's ever had in it's history, but let's not blame the Tories.

It's just grievance politics though.

Take some ownership of "your parties policies".

Aha OK then.

Firstly they are not my party. I carry no political parties card and have repeatedly stated that no mainstream party in the UK are anywhere near competent enough to gain my support.

Secondly it’s not a party policy nor the governments policy.

Thirdly I have already said at least twice that I didn’t agree with the think tanks proposal.

Finally I was attempting to point out that while I didn’t agree with the proposal the problem it was ham fistingly trying to address was very real and very present and therefore a grown up discussion around the subject was required...you’ll be glad to know I don’t consider your response as entering into that bracket.

[ronaldo7]

It's just one grievance after another. Anything else to add to the list?

"And this takes us to the crux of the problem – we now have two competing visions of independence. One comes in the form of politicians like Ms Sturgeon and Patrick Harvie of the Greens. It’s considered, pragmatic, non-threatening; it wants to woo opponents. It wants a progressive, fair and equal Scotland, and believes the way to improve the lot of ordinary people is to leave behind the broken Westminster system. The other is Trumpian in nature and thrives on offence rather than persuasion. It wants independence at any cost."

I think you are certainly more the latter one.

Don't kid yourself. You're not for turning. You're a hard NO as in the Surrender type. While you bash away on the keyboard, and pump up the Dog food salesman, I'm working my way through the soft No's just now, and can say many are now Yes. It's coming yet.:wink:

The trouble with your argument, is that the grievances are real. These things are actually happening. You can shout "Grievance Monkey" all you like, but you're voting for the party who's implementing these policies, and killing people. It's on you jimmy.

OWN IT.

[Fife-Hibee]

Aha OK then.

Firstly they are not my party. I carry no political parties card and have repeatedly stated that no mainstream party in the UK are anywhere near competent enough to gain my support.

Secondly it’s not a party policy nor the governments policy.

Thirdly I have already said at least twice that I didn’t agree with the think tanks proposal.

Finally I was attempting to point out that while I didn’t agree with the proposal the problem it was ham fistingly trying to address was very real and very present and therefore a grown up discussion around the subject was required...you’ll be glad to know I don’t consider your response as entering into that bracket.

With no mainstream parties in the UK that you feel you can put your trust in. Perhaps it's time to break up the political structure that makes up the UK?

[ronaldo7]

Aha OK then.

Firstly they are not my party. I carry no political parties card and have repeatedly stated that no mainstream party in the UK are anywhere near competent enough to gain my support.

Secondly it’s not a party policy nor the governments policy.

Thirdly I have already said at least twice that I didn’t agree with the think tanks proposal.

Finally I was attempting to point out that while I didn’t agree with the proposal the problem it was ham fistingly trying to address was very real and very present and therefore a grown up discussion around the subject was required...you’ll be glad to know I don’t consider your response as entering into that bracket.

:aok: Let's not blame the Tories though.

[James310]

Don't kid yourself. You're not for turning. You're a hard NO as in the Surrender type. While you bash away on the keyboard, and pump up the Dog food salesman, I'm working my way through the soft No's just now, and can say many are now Yes. It's coming yet.:wink:

The trouble with your argument, is that the grievances are real. These things are actually happening. You can shout "Grievance Monkey" all you like, but you're voting for the party who's implementing these policies, and killing people. It's on you jimmy.

OWN IT.

:faf: The thought of you engaging and persuading soft no voters makes me laugh. What's your patter when they say they are are concerned about oh I don't know but let's say the currency, cause last time you said you didn't care what it was as long as you got independence. I am sure that really persuades them.

Or do you just reel of a list of Tory bad things and then see what happens.

[Fife-Hibee]

:faf: The thought of you engaging and persuading soft no voters makes me laugh. What's your patter when they say they are are concerned about oh I don't know but let's say the currency, cause last time you said you didn't care as long as you got ndependence. I am sure they really persuades them.

Or do you just reel of a list of Tory bad things and then see what happens.

I bet they're concerned about the currency. I mean.... just look at it.
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=10Y

No wonder more NOs are shifting to YES without any of us even having to say a word.

[James310]

I bet they're concerned about the currency. I mean.... just look at it.
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=USD&view=10Y

No wonder more NOs are shifting to YES without any of us even having to say a word.

Yes, because everyone studies the sterling to Dollar exchange rate graphs.

Did you watch Love Island last night? No, I was too busy looking at the historical Sterling to Dollar exchange rates.

Those conversations are happening across the factories and office all over the country moving people from No to Yes.

[Fife-Hibee]

Yep, because everyone looks at the Sterling to Dollar exchange rate and talks about it on the factory floors and offices.

Did you watch Love Island last night? No, I was studying the Sterling to Dollar exchange rates graphs. Bet those conversations are happening all over the country.

It seems to me that you don't want that to be the case. As if keeping people ill informed is the best hope of keeping Scotland in the UK.

[James310]

It seems to me that you want that to be the case. As if keeping people ill informed is the best hope of keeping Scotland in the UK.

Is it a topic of conversation where you work? The sterling to Dollar exchange rate? I tend to find it is what was on TV last night or the football. Maybe that's just where I work then.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's just one grievance after another. Anything else to add to the list?

"And this takes us to the crux of the problem – we now have two competing visions of independence. One comes in the form of politicians like Ms Sturgeon and Patrick Harvie of the Greens. It’s considered, pragmatic, non-threatening; it wants to woo opponents. It wants a progressive, fair and equal Scotland, and believes the way to improve the lot of ordinary people is to leave behind the broken Westminster system. The other is Trumpian in nature and thrives on offence rather than persuasion. It wants independence at any cost."

I think you are certainly more the latter one.

How many grievances does someone need to collect before the grievances become valid? EU citizens living in Scotland are right to feel aggrieved, disabled people having life deteriorating cuts to benefits are right to feel aggrieved, citizens who grew up in a union that allowed them free movement throughout the whole continent are right to feel aggrieved, people involved in arduous heavy labour who now worry that they might have to work until 75 are right to feel aggrieved and the list goes on and on, these are not just petty complaints.

[Fife-Hibee]

Is it a topic of conversation where you work? The sterling to Dollar exchange rate? I tend to find it is what was on TV last night or the football. Maybe that's just where I work then.

Perhaps. My co-workers generally prefer more intellectual discussions. But perhaps it's just the co-workers I decide to hang around.

[Glory Lurker]

How the hell has this got on to independence?????

On topic - I'd like to see a larger tax take from unearned income, and a tighter inheritance tax line might go some way to redistributing baby boomers wealth to those that need it now.

[James310]

How many grievances does someone need to collect before the grievances become valid? EU citizens living in Scotland are right to feel aggrieved, disabled people having life deteriorating cuts to benefits are right to feel aggrieved, citizens who grew up in a union that allowed them free movement throughout the whole continent are right to feel aggrieved, people involved in arduous heavy labour who now worry that they might have to work until 75 are right to feel aggrieved and the list goes on and on, these are not just petty complaints.

That would assume the grievances are new, if it was not the ones you mention it would be something else. There was grievance before the EU referendum, there was grievance before benefit changes and so on. Some may be valid, but when you play the same card over and over again it loses it impact.

It's not government policy working until your 75 so your making a grievance out of a single suggestion made by a think tank and is nowhere near being government policy.

[The Modfather]

So it's not policy at all, it's one suggestion made a few days ago.

How would you solve the pension crisis, would be great to hear some alternative non Tory views?

How is it that this is “one suggestion”, yet when anyone on here outlines their preferences on currency, tax appetite etc for an independent Scotland you take that “one suggestion” and forensically analyse it as if it were set in stone as the only way forward?

[James310]

Perhaps. My co-workers generally prefer more intellectual discussions. But perhaps it's just the co-workers I decide to hang around.

Must be a cool place, instead of Grand National sweeps do you all bet on the LIBOR rate movements or how the Japanese Yen is performing against the Euro.

[Callum_62]

Must be a cool place, instead of Grand National sweeps do you all bet on the LIBOR rate movements or how the Japanese Yen is performing against the Euro.

To be fair I bet people are noticing the poorly performing pound now the summer holiday period is nearing an end

[Fife-Hibee]

Must be a cool place, instead of Grand National sweeps do you all bet on the LIBOR rate movements or how the Japanese Yen is performing against the Euro.

No, but perhaps we should. Might be a good way to keep ahead of the game when everybody else is skint.

[weecounty hibby]

Yes, because everyone studies the sterling to Dollar exchange rate graphs.

Did you watch Love Island last night? No, I was too busy looking at the historical Sterling to Dollar exchange rates.

Those conversations are happening across the factories and office all over the country moving people from No to Yes.
As you know I very seldom, if ever, agree with anything you say but usually you are a good poster with good points and usually a good debate etc. But you are letting yourself down here with this one. I can assure you in my office over the last three months or however long LI was on the telly we have discussed the strength of the pound way more often. And quite often as a background of Brexit/independence. Folk on your side of the debate would rather we were discussing LI to deflect away from the growing mess the UK is in and the growing support for independence

[James310]

How is it that this is “one suggestion”, yet when anyone on here outlines their preferences on currency, tax appetite etc for an independent Scotland you take that “one suggestion” and forensically analyse it as if it were set in stone as the only way forward?

I am not really sure what you mean, but I have picked holes in lots of suggestions. Maybe give me an example?

[James310]

As you know I very seldom, if ever, agree with anything you say but usually you are a good poster with good points and usually a good debate etc. But you are letting yourself down here with this one. I can assure you in my office over the last three months or however long LI was on the telly we have discussed the strength of the pound way more often. And quite often as a background of Brexit/independence. Folk on your side of the debate would rather we were discussing LI to deflect away from the growing mess the UK is in and the growing support for independence

I would suggest you and your colleagues were in the minority, I can't imagine it is a common thing to discuss Sterling to Dollar exchange rates unless you were going to Disneyland. But I guess it will be more common than before, but not to the extent that I think some may suggest.

I am shocked but pleasantly surprised by your first sentence but thank you.

[ronaldo7]

:faf: The thought of you engaging and persuading soft no voters makes me laugh. What's your patter when they say they are are concerned about oh I don't know but let's say the currency, cause last time you said you didn't care what it was as long as you got independence. I am sure that really persuades them.

Or do you just reel of a list of Tory bad things and then see what happens.

Well may you mock young James. I can smell the fear fi here.:wink:

I generally tell them how you spell Independence. :aok:

[James310]

Well may you mock young James. I can smell the fear fi here.:wink:

I generally tell them how you spell Independence. :aok:

I am really interested, what do you tell them?

[ronaldo7]

I am really interested, what do you tell them?

You're really interested...Really?

Is that like. Please stay, Scotland, we love you, now get up the back o the bus and shut up.

I'll leave you to troll on. :aok:

[James310]

You're really interested...Really?

Is that like. Please stay, Scotland, we love you, now get up the back o the bus and shut up.

I'll leave you to troll on. :aok:

Well you are the one who said you are persuading No voters, and I merely asked how you are doing that. Is that considered trolling?

I am genuinely interested as it's one of the hardest questions out there, what do you tell them?

Your answer before was you never cared what the currency was and I suspect that's not the answer you give the people you are persuading?

[Hibrandenburg]

That would assume the grievances are new, if it was not the ones you mention it would be something else. There was grievance before the EU referendum, there was grievance before benefit changes and so on. Some may be valid, but when you play the same card over and over again it loses it impact.

It's not government policy working until your 75 so your making a grievance out of a single suggestion made by a think tank and is nowhere near being government policy.

As I expected, you just brush aside a multitude of genuine grievances but still prattle on about your own grievance about your concern about currency in an independent Scotland. For you the Tories can't seem to do any wrong and you wonder why you take flak on a football forum, a game that is predominantly followed by working class people. I can only presume you enjoy it though because it would appear to be the only reason you're on here for.

[James310]

As I expected, you just brush aside a multitude of genuine grievances but still prattle on about your own grievance about your concern about currency in an independent Scotland. For you the Tories can't seem to do any wrong and you wonder why you take flak on a football forum, a game that is predominantly followed by working class people. I can only presume you enjoy it though because it would appear to be the only reason you're on here for.

If I think the Tories can do no wrong why have I called Boris a disaster and Brexit a total **** show? Surely I would be saying what a wonderful guy Boris is and I can't wait to leave the EU.

But I don't.

[Hibernia&Alba]

No surprise that IDS (Irritable Duncan Syndrome) would propose this. His time at the DWP with his sidekick McVile was atrocious, lacking all compassion. Also, post-Brexit we need to be prepared for future Tory governments placing EU protections in relation to workers rights and the environment on the bonfire. I see that disgusting person Patel has said free movement of EU citizens will cease they day after Brexit, though, of course, there is no plan regarding implementing it. These Thatcherites are determined to dismantle what's left of the post-1945 welfare state.

[Hibrandenburg]

If I think the Tories can do no wrong why have I called Boris a disaster and Brexit a total **** show? Surely I would be saying what a wonderful guy Boris is and I can't wait to leave the EU.

But I don't.

But you're happy to hang in there for the ride.

[James310]

But you're happy to hang in there for the ride.

No, I would revoke A50 tomorrow and sack Boris if I could.

Sorry to disappoint.

[Fife-Hibee]

No, I would revoke A50 tomorrow and sack Boris if I could.

Sorry to disappoint.

and I would sell you out instantly to half a country of mad raging lunatics to save my own skin. :cb

[ronaldo7]

Well you are the one who said you are persuading No voters, and I merely asked how you are doing that. Is that considered trolling?

I am genuinely interested as it's one of the hardest questions out there, what do you tell them?

Your answer before was you never cared what the currency was and I suspect that's not the answer you give the people you are persuading?

As I've said, you're trolling.

Genuinely interested my erchie. You've now turned the Goebbels thread about IDS into a currency discussion.

Whatever happened to putting the gang on ignore?

[Hibrandenburg]

No, I would revoke A50 tomorrow and sack Boris if I could.

Sorry to disappoint.

I was referring to Scotland in the Union. The Tories rip Scotland out of the Union but you're happy for us to hang in there?

[James310]

As I've said, you're trolling.

Genuinely interested my erchie. You've now turned the Goebbels thread about IDS into a currency discussion.

Whatever happened to putting the gang on ignore?

I was genuinely interested as I think it's one of the most difficult questions to answer, one more chance to answer it? Please?

If it was me I would have been hounded by about 5 posters demanding I answer the question by now, and you would have been one of them. Like you did on the Ireland question, which I answered.

[James310]

I was referring to Scotland in the Union. The Tories rip Scotland out of the Union but you're happy for us to hang in there?

The Tories rip Scotland out of the Union? No comprende.

[ronaldo7]

I was genuinely interested as I think it's one of the most difficult questions to answer, one more chance to answer it? Please?

If it was me I would have been hounded by about 5 posters demanding I answer the question by now, and you would have been one of them. Like you did on the Ireland question, which I answered.

Now why do you think I'd give up my strategy to the enemy. :greengrin

You'd just get your jackboots on and stomp down to CPHQ for your medal. :wink:

You're not genuinely interested are you. Come on now, stop telling porkies now, and move along to answering why the list of grievances is getting longer by the day.

Hounded indeed. :faf::faf:

[Hibrandenburg]

The Tories rip Scotland out of the Union? No comprende.

Sorry, European Union. Thought you'd manage to fill in the blanks.

[James310]

Now why do you think I'd give up my strategy to the enemy. :greengrin

You'd just get your jackboots on and stomp down to CPHQ for your medal. :wink:

You're not genuinely interested are you. Come on now, stop telling porkies now, and move along to answering why the list of grievances is getting longer by the day.

Hounded indeed. :faf::faf:

Why do you keep saying I am not genuinely interested when currency is one of the topics I go on about, too much according to many. So I am genuinely interested.

Ok, you are not going to answer. Fair enough, but please don't ever have a go at me for not answering a question again.

[ronaldo7]

Why do you keep saying I am not genuinely interested when currency is one of the topics I go on about, too much according to many. So I am genuinely interested.

Ok, you are not going to answer. Fair enough, but please don't ever have a go at me for not answering a question again.

You're not getting an answer on currency or what I discuss with "EX" no voters, because this is a thread about Iain Duncan Smith, and you've deflected it again onto currency.

As I said...Trolling.

[James310]

You're not getting an answer on currency or what I discuss with "EX" no voters, because this is a thread about Iain Duncan Smith, and you've deflected it again onto currency.

As I said...Trolling.

:faf::faf: Ok, we will leave it there.

[Cataplana]

I would suggest you and your colleagues were in the minority, I can't imagine it is a common thing to discuss Sterling to Dollar exchange rates unless you were going to Disneyland. But I guess it will be more common than before, but not to the extent that I think some may suggest.

I am shocked but pleasantly surprised by your first sentence but thank you.

Can't say it's a hot topic round our water cooler.

[James310]

Can't say it's a hot topic round our water cooler.

More a Japanese Yen versus the Euro type of place?

[weecounty hibby]

More a Japanese Yen versus the Euro type of place?

So for someone who thinks that THE biggest issue for an independent Scotland is currency now is telling everyone that no one will be talking about erm well currency. I can tell you flat out it has been discussed a lot in my office and actually getting round to what an independent Scotland could/would/should do regarding currency
You have also gone from serious points to just flat out trying to make jokes about it because you don't want to believe what I'm saying as it doesn't fit in with your narrative

[James310]

So for someone who thinks that THE biggest issue for an independent Scotland is currency now is telling everyone that no one will be talking about erm well currency. I can tell you flat out it has been discussed a lot in my office and actually getting round to what an independent Scotland could/would/should do regarding currency
You have also gone from serious points to just flat out trying to make jokes about it because you don't want to believe what I'm saying as it doesn't fit in with your narrative

I think come to another Indy campaign it will be a hot topic, but not the sterling to Dollar exchange rate history, that was the graph after all, or the yen to Euro exchange rate, why would they?

I still don't think many people will be talking about the exchange rates between those currencies, unless we of course adopt the dollar or Yen, which you never know.

I never said people in an Indy campaign won't talk about currency, but I bet you it won't be Sterling to Dollar and Yen to Euro.

[James310]

Sorry, European Union. Thought you'd manage to fill in the blanks.

Sorry, can't answer as it's not about IDS. You need to stop changing the subject and stay on topic. You will get a telling off otherwise.

P.S. there was a UK wide referendum, the result was Leave. That's the primary reason for us leaving the EU. The will of the people and all that.

A no deal Brexit is a game changer though, hell I might even be out on the streets campaigning with R7 answering the currency question for him.

[Hibrandenburg]

Sorry, can't answer as it's not about IDS. You need to stop changing the subject and stay on topic. You will get a telling off otherwise.

P.S. there was a UK wide referendum, the result was Leave. That's the primary reason for us leaving the EU. The will of the people and all that.

A no deal Brexit is a game changer though, hell I might even be out on the streets campaigning with R7 answering the currency question for him.

Fair and straight answer, thanks.

[Hibernia&Alba]

When the old age pension was introduced, the pensioner was expected to live another five years.

Likewise with most people dieing by age 50, few would actually survive to claim it.

Old age pensions in their current format are not sustainable.

Yes they are, it's a political choice whether we fund them properly or not. National Insurance contributions pay for the state pension; abolish the cap on NI contributions and fund pensions correctly. What's more, the fact that older people tend to vote more often and disproportionately vote Tory means the government needs to tread carefully when making changes to pensions. The pension is given protections other benefits are not because of this, though hasn't the 'triple lock' been watered down to a 'double lock'?

[cabbageandribs1875]

22427
22426


:agree:

[Smartie]

It's not the pension that I think is unsustainable, more the fact that people are living as long as they are whilst enjoying "free" health care.

There is enough money to go round, for all there are some pensioners freezing and in poverty there are a great many who are cavorting around having the life of Reilly. It's actually the group of people who are often marketed at for having the largest disposable income these days.

The generation we currently have in old age/ approaching old age have, over a lifetime, IN GENERAL taken out quite a bit more than they have put in.

Going forward we need to accept that we're all going to have to put a bit more in and take a little bit less out. It doesn't need to be anything overly drastic if we all accept this fact.

Pension age is worthy of discussion. Pension arrangements whilst working should also figure. Funding of the NHS (and what parts of it) and other public services should be on the table.

The public need to be prepared to swallow a few home truths, make a few sacrifices and take a bit of responsibility. If the politicians could also come to the table with a certain amount of honesty and candour, we could hopefully come up with a solution a bit better than more debt and kicking the can down the road or hoping that someone else will just pay for everything.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It's not the pension that I think is unsustainable, more the fact that people are living as long as they are whilst enjoying "free" health care.

There is enough money to go round, for all there are some pensioners freezing and in poverty there are a great many who are cavorting around having the life of Reilly. It's actually the group of people who are often marketed at for having the largest disposable income these days.

The generation we currently have in old age/ approaching old age have, over a lifetime, IN GENERAL taken out quite a bit more than they have put in.

Going forward we need to accept that we're all going to have to put a bit more in and take a little bit less out. It doesn't need to be anything overly drastic if we all accept this fact.

Pension age is worthy of discussion. Pension arrangements whilst working should also figure. Funding of the NHS (and what parts of it) and other public services should be on the table.

The public need to be prepared to swallow a few home truths, make a few sacrifices and take a bit of responsibility. If the politicians could also come to the table with a certain amount of honesty and candour, we could hopefully come up with a solution a bit better than more debt and kicking the can down the road or hoping that someone else will just pay for everything.

Yes there is, it's a matter of using the tax system properly (as already mentioned abolish the NI cap) and close loopholes, then share the money more equally. We are the fifth richest country in the world in the twenty-first century, yet some are claiming we cant afford social services. When the systems were created by the Attlee government, the country was completely bankrupt after six years of war, yet they managed to introduce an NHS and a welfare state, plus build two million council homes.

It's all ideological: we could find 180 billion overnight to save the criminality of the banks, yet we can't afford an NHS and state pensions? Nonsense. Those who say there isn't enough money actually mean they don't want to pay to fund the system properly, which is a different argument. That's the honest discussion you speak of. Claiming there isn't enough money is actually a dishonest argument; the honest approach is question whether we as a society are willing to pay for pensions, the NHS and public services. The candour we need to face is the fact income tax is far too low in this country compared to those European nations such as France, Germany and the Scandinavian nations who have better public services, higher benefits and stronger welfare than we do. We need to abolish the NI contributions ceiling first of all. It's about choices as to the kind of society we want to live in. The money is there; the question is how we distribute it. Do we want the European model or do we want to go ever further down the American route? Give me Denmark every time!

I agree with you that we need home truths; we can't have our cake and eat it. If we want good pensions and a thriving NHS we have to be prepared to pay for them. I propose a more progressive taxation system to make that happen. That's an honest approach.