Owen Jones

[Northernhibee]

Attacked last night on a night out, far right thugs suspected.

The question is; Brexit has emboldened the far right in this country, how do you get them back in their box and close the lid from here?

[Callum_62]

Become independent and let the centre left leaning country flourish

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

[Northernhibee]

Become independent and let the centre left leaning country flourish

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

You'd have to imagine that the far right in this country would react to independence too. There's a notable amount of them up here too. Also, it doesn't explain how in England you get the far right back in their box again.

[Just Jimmy]

politics that looked to build bridges rather than create division would be a massive start.

then progressive politics rather than destructive politics.

far right and far left are usually pretty quiet when there's positive progressive change and development.



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[Fife-Hibee]

You'd have to imagine that the far right in this country would react to independence too. There's a notable amount of them up here too. Also, it doesn't explain how in England you get the far right back in their box again.

They've already told us how they would react. They'll "aw move doon tae england" apparently. :pray: It's a win/win.

[AgentDaleCooper]

Become independent and let the centre left leaning country flourish

Sent from my VOG-L29 using Tapatalk

a far-right, post-UK little England government would probably pose plenty of problems for an independent neighbour, along with the rest of the world. worth baring in mind.

[Callum_62]

a far-right, post-UK little England government would probably pose plenty of problems for an independent neighbour, along with the rest of the world. worth baring in mind.Absoute nonsense - 1 part that makes UK side look bad

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[Fife-Hibee]

a far-right, post-UK little England government would probably pose plenty of problems for an independent neighbour, along with the rest of the world. worth baring in mind.

Perhaps. Just puts into perspective how much of a problem they'll pose if we're still trapped in political union.

[Slavers]

It disgusting that Owen Jones has been attacked but please remember that Nigel Farage needed police protection and was locked in a pub away from a mob for his own safety when he visited Scotland.

[Hibrandenburg]

It disgusting that Owen Jones has been attacked but please remember that Nigel Farage needed police protection and was locked in a pub away from a mob for his own safety when he visited Scotland.

That's because Farage is a horrible little fascist runt. Being antifascist is and should be the default setting for all decent human beings. Battering a fascist is completely acceptable on the streets, in the pubs and even on the beaches of Normandy. Comparing Owen Jones to Farage is just silly.

[makaveli1875]

That's because Farage is a horrible little fascist runt. Being antifascist is and should be the default setting for all decent human beings. Battering a fascist is completely acceptable on the streets, in the pubs and even on the beaches of Normandy. Comparing Owen Jones to Farage is just silly.

Wanting folk battered in the streets certainly isn't the default setting of decent human beings. It's the default setting of hooligans and fascists.
You have more in common with Farage than you realise

[Fife-Hibee]

That's because Farage is a horrible little fascist runt. Being antifascist is and should be the default setting for all decent human beings. Battering a fascist is completely acceptable on the streets, in the pubs and even on the beaches of Normandy. Comparing Owen Jones to Farage is just silly.

It's easy to say that when anti-fascism is your own default setting. But fascism is clearly their own default setting. I don't like Farage, but turning to violent like behaviour because you're "anti-fascism" is a bit of a contradiction. The best way to deal with a fascist is to starve them of as much attention as possible. It's the attention they thrive on. Don't give them their own victim card to play.

[Northernhibee]

It disgusting that Owen Jones has been attacked but please remember that Nigel Farage needed police protection and was locked in a pub away from a mob for his own safety when he visited Scotland.

He also said that he'd "don khaki" and "pick up a rifle" and had also gloated about the referendum being won without a shot being fired, days after the murder of remain MP Jo Cox.

All mouth and no bollocks.

[Hibrandenburg]

Wanting folk battered in the streets certainly isn't the default setting of decent human beings. It's the default setting of hooligans and fascists.
You have more in common with Farage than you realise

Nope, if you can't see the difference between spreading racial/ethnic hate and fighting fascism, then ask your great grandad, he'll put you right.

[Kato]

It's easy to say that when anti-fascism is your own default setting. But fascism is clearly their own default setting. I don't like Farage, but turning to violent like behaviour because you're "anti-fascism" is a bit of a contradiction. The best way to deal with a fascist is to starve them of as much attention as possible. It's the attention they thrive on. Don't give them their own victim card to play.

There are swathes of the media who are giving them all the attention they require. It's not within our control to stop that attention being given. So given that, what's the best way to treat him?

[Fife-Hibee]

There are swathes of the media who are giving them all the attention they require. It's not within our control to stop that attention being given. So given that, what's the best way to treat him?

The media only give them attention whenever there is a situation of some kind. Like Nigel Farage being chased into a pub in Scotland, or having a milkshake poured over him in England.

Turn their visits into non events and the media will have nothing to talk about.

[Hibrandenburg]

It's easy to say that when anti-fascism is your own default setting. But fascism is clearly their own default setting. I don't like Farage, but turning to violent like behaviour because you're "anti-fascism" is a bit of a contradiction. The best way to deal with a fascist is to starve them of as much attention as possible. It's the attention they thrive on. Don't give them their own victim card to play.

You need to reread the definition of fascism. It might have become synonymous to equate it to violence in the modern world, but violence is just a symptom of fascism like a rash on your skin is just a symptom of an underlying disorder.

How has ignoring fascism in the past worked out? Fascism isn't a default setting, it has to be learnt, nobody is born a fascist it's a choice that people make. If you've chosen to believe that you, your race, your country, you're religion is superior to others and is deserving of superior treatment, then you're a ****, fascism, racism and supremacy are cancers that need to be destroyed, no holds barred.

[Fife-Hibee]

You need to reread the definition of fascism. It might have become synonymous to equate it to violence in the modern world, but violence is just a symptom of fascism like a rash on your skin is just a symptom of an underlying disorder.

How has ignoring fascism in the past worked out? Fascism isn't a default setting, it has to be learnt, nobody is born a fascist it's a choice that people make. If you've chosen to believe that you, your race, your country, you're religion is superior to others and is deserving of superior treatment, then you're a ****, fascism, racism and supremacy are cancers that need to be destroyed, no holds barred.

Fascists have no power if they're ignored. Fascism only gains traction when people start listening and giving them any kind of attention good or bad. How far would Hitler have got in Germany if the Germans had simply ignored him?

Fascism is nothing more than words in the beginning and words can be ignored.

[Smartie]

The media only give them attention whenever there is a situation of some kind. Like Nigel Farage being chased into a pub in Scotland, or having a milkshake poured over him in England.

Turn their visits into non events and the media will have nothing to talk about.

If he had milkshakes poured on him before being chased into a pub in every town he visited, it would very quickly become a non-story.

I'd be happy with that, even if I'm not generally in favour of violence against anyone, fascist or otherwise.

[Hibrandenburg]

The media only give them attention whenever there is a situation of some kind. Like Nigel Farage being chased into a pub in Scotland, or having a milkshake poured over him in England.

Turn their visits into non events and the media will have nothing to talk about.


Sorry but that's absolute tosh. As the leader of UKIP, a party with NO MPs, Farage was given wall to wall media coverage to spread his xenophobic pish. Your list of Fife-Hibee facts is pretty incredible.

[Hibrandenburg]

Fascists have no power if they're ignored. Fascism only gains traction when people start listening and giving them any kind of attention good or bad. How far would Hitler have got in Germany if the Germans had simply ignored him?

Fascism is nothing more than words in the beginning and words can be ignored.

Again incredible revisionism on your part. Hitler came to power BECAUSE he was ignored.

[Fife-Hibee]

Sorry but that's absolute tosh. As the leader of UKIP, a party with NO MPs, Farage was given wall to wall media coverage to spread his xenophobic pish. Your list of Fife-Hibee facts is pretty incredible.

If you want to actively engage with fascists and allow history to repeat the same mistakes again, then you bash on. I'll continue to ignore them.

[Kato]

The media only give them attention whenever there is a situation of some kind. Like Nigel Farage being chased into a pub in Scotland, or having a milkshake poured over him in England.

Turn their visits into non events and the media will have nothing to talk about.

I don't think that is true at all, and looking at who that turnip in No 10 has advising him there are "far right" people at the heart of power. There is no ignoring them. They already have oxygen and no little power, they have a base of people all to willing to listen and if you are against them ignoring them just isn't an option.

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't think that is true at all, and looking at who that turnip in No 10 has advising him there are "far right" people at the heart of power. There is no ignoring them. They already have oxygen and no little power, they have a base of people all to willing to listen and if you are against them ignoring them just isn't an option.

A "base" isn't enough. Fascism requires sizable numbers. Sizable numbers that can only be obtained if enough people allow themselves to be suckered in by it. You can't be suckered in if you ignore it.

[Kato]

A "base" isn't enough. Fascism requires sizable numbers. Sizable numbers that can only be obtained if enough people allow themselves to be suckered in by it. You can't be suckered in if you ignore it.

OK, bud but I really think you are underestimating what is happening. Fascism only requires a foot in the door of power and it'll take hold.

You carry on "ignoring" them.

[Northernhibee]

If you want to actively engage with fascists and allow history to repeat the same mistakes again, then you bash on. I'll continue to ignore them.

By engaging with them and tackling them head on, we've smashed the BNP and have just about done the same with the EDL and UKIP. Britain First are on the ropes too.

[Fife-Hibee]

OK, bud but I really think you are underestimating what is happening. Fascism only requires a foot in the door of power and it'll take hold.

You carry on "ignoring" them.

Thanks, I will. Fascism always has a foot in the door. I won't play my part in opening it right up.

[Fife-Hibee]

By engaging with them and tackling them head on, we've smashed the BNP and have just about done the same with the EDL and UKIP. Britain First are on the ropes too.

By engaging with them, you're giving them the reaction they're baiting for. Fascists want people to become violent against them, because then they can point at you and say "Look people, see where the real violence resides? Join us and we'll make the world a safer place."

First they make a hypocrite out of you, then they promise something better. It doesn't matter if they can actually deliver something better or not. They just need to fool enough people into believing they can.

[Cataplana]

By engaging with them and tackling them head on, we've smashed the BNP and have just about done the same with the EDL and UKIP. Britain First are on the ropes too.

Don't know if you can see the irony in your statement. If we smashed the BNP, how come they were replaced by stronger fascist groups?



It's easy to say that when anti-fascism is your own default setting. But fascism is clearly their own default setting. I don't like Farage, but turning to violent like behaviour because you're "anti-fascism" is a bit of a contradiction. The best way to deal with a fascist is to starve them of as much attention as possible. It's the attention they thrive on. Don't give them their own victim card to play.

The best way to deal with any attention seeking pest is to laugh at them repeatedly.

:faf:

George Orwell said the real reason fascism did not stand a chance in Britain is that people would just laugh at them goose stepping down the road.

[Hibrandenburg]

By engaging with them and tackling them head on, we've smashed the BNP and have just about done the same with the EDL and UKIP. Britain First are on the ropes too.

:agree:

[Northernhibee]

Don't know if you can see the irony in your statement. If we smashed the BNP, how come they were replaced by stronger fascist groups?

Because they've also fallen by the wayside too.

Between UKIP, BNP and Brexit Ltd. how many MPs do they currently have? None.

How many have they ever had? One.

They've been kept at bay by activism, campaigning, engaging with people to let them know what they actually stand for.

[Fife-Hibee]

Because they've also fallen by the wayside too.

Between UKIP, BNP and Brexit Ltd. how many MPs do they currently have? None.

How many have they ever had? One.

They've been kept at bay by activism, campaigning, engaging with people to let them know what they actually stand for.

Or there's a sizable chunk of them now residing in the Brexit Party and the Conservatives. They haven't been kept at bay at all. Just like America, it's been a rapidly growing issue here as well and across Europe. A combination of left-wing incompetency in politics and hypocrisy when "dealing" with the far-right has handed them the platform they've been seeking out.

[makaveli1875]

Nope, if you can't see the difference between spreading racial/ethnic hate and fighting fascism, then ask your great grandad, he'll put you right.

I don't need anyone to put me right. Battering folk in the street isn't going to solve anything.

[Hibrandenburg]

Don't know if you can see the irony in your statement. If we smashed the BNP, how come they were replaced by stronger fascist groups?

These groups still exist in theory, they've just been constantly usurped by other groups gradually moving toward the middle ground and winning support from the right of the centre right. They've spent a lot of time making themselves appear socially acceptable and reinventing themselves as "concerned citizens" whilst remaining the same at their core. They are still driven by xenophobia and racism, they've just added a few flowers to their rhetoric.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't need anyone to put me right. Battering folk in the street isn't going to solve anything.

Appeasing them, even less. Oswald Mosley might disagree with you. Fascism is a cancer, anti-fascism might not be nice but it's the chemo therapy necessary to contain an aggressive disease.

[Fife-Hibee]

These groups still exist in theory, they've just been constantly usurped by other groups gradually moving toward the middle ground and winning support from the right of the centre right. They've spent a lot of time making themselves appear socially acceptable and reinventing themselves as "concerned citizens" whilst remaining the same at their core. They are still driven by xenophobia and racism, they've just added a few flowers to their rhetoric.

So they switch to a softer rhetoric, we continue to "batter them on the streets". The media picks up on that, acts as echo chambers. They can then play the victim card. John Smith feels sorry for them. Desides the left are hypocrites for behaving violently. Cancels his membership for his local socialist party and joins them instead.

[Kato]

Or there's a sizable chunk of them now residing in the Brexit Party and the Conservatives.

Agreed. So how to we go about ignoring that lot?

[Fife-Hibee]

Appeasing them, even less. Oswald Mosley might disagree with you. Fascism is a cancer, anti-fascism might not be nice but it's the chemo therapy necessary to contain an aggressive disease.

Ignoring them isn't appeasing them. Giving them the reaction they were looking for is.

[makaveli1875]

Appeasing them, even less. Oswald Mosley might disagree with you. Fascism is a cancer, anti-fascism might not be nice but it's the chemo therapy necessary to contain an aggressive disease.

I don't think the way to tackle fascism is to become fascist yourself. It just breeds more fascism.

[JeMeSouviens]

Again incredible revisionism on your part. Hitler came to power BECAUSE he was ignored.

Exactly :agree:

That and wishful thinking that the slightly more moderate pr he presented was real.

[Kato]

I don't think the way to tackle fascism is to become fascist yourself. It just breeds more fascism.

Is that what happened after Cable St?

[Hibrandenburg]

So they switch to a softer rhetoric, we continue to "batter them on the streets". The media picks up on that, acts as echo chambers. They can then play the victim card. John Smith feels sorry for them. Desides the left are hypocrites for behaving violently. Cancels his membership for his local socialist party and joins them instead.

Where do you think Brexit gets it's support from and why Labour are down the pan? John Smiths up and down the country have already torn up their membership cards.

[Fife-Hibee]

Agreed. So how to we go about ignoring that lot?

Well for starters, we need to awknowledge why this shift has occured and recognize that our approach to stop it hasn't worked. Treating a growing number of people as the "enemy" is a very dangerous approach to dealing with this issue. We need to pull people back and we're not going to do that by fighting or ridiculing them on the streets. We need to practice what we preach by showing them that there is a civilized approach to politics that they can be a part of. The failed approach that we keep on persisting with will only lead to war.

[Kato]

civilized approach to politics


Fascists aren't interested in that, in fact that is what they are out to destroy.

[Cataplana]

Because they've also fallen by the wayside too.

Between UKIP, BNP and Brexit Ltd. how many MPs do they currently have? None.

How many have they ever had? One.

They've been kept at bay by activism, campaigning, engaging with people to let them know what they actually stand for.

Funnily enough though, government policy is the furthest right it has ever been. It makes you wonder if the likes of BNP, UKIP and EDL have ended up being much more influential than it appears on the surface.

[Hibrandenburg]

I don't think the way to tackle fascism is to become fascist yourself. It just breeds more fascism.

Again, look up the definition of fascism. How is being antifascist fascist? You're determined to tar anti-fascism with the same brush as fascism but that will never stand up to scrutiny.

[Fife-Hibee]

Fascists aren't interested in that, in fact that is what they are out to destroy.

Fascists aren't born. Nobody starts out that way. It's our failure to recognize the process that takes perfectly decent civilized individuals and turns them into this that ultimately contributes to the growing problem.

[marinello59]

Ignoring them isn't appeasing them. Giving them the reaction they were looking for is.

Have you heard of the Battle of Cable Street?

[makaveli1875]

Again, look up the definition of fascism. How is being antifascist fascist? You're determined to tar anti-fascism with the same brush as fascism but that will never stand up to scrutiny.

If you want to go about battering people then it will stand up to scrutiny. You condemn owen Jones getting battered by fascists while advocating going out and battering Farage. That makes you just like them

[Hibrandenburg]

If you want to go about battering people then it will stand up to scrutiny. You condemn owen Jones getting battered by fascists while advocating going out and battering Farage. That makes you just like them

So the allies battering the Nazis made them as bad as the Nazis? You're warbling.

[Kato]

Fascists aren't born. Nobody starts out that way. It's our failure to recognize the process that takes perfectly decent civilized individuals and turns them into this that ultimately contributes to the growing problem.



Great - we've found the cause.

However it's a bit too far down the road to do anything about that at the moment. They are in power and determined to knock this country back to a Feudal tip, only a few months to go.

Ignoring them right now will do what exactly?

[Fife-Hibee]

Have you heard of the Battle of Cable Street?

How do you think that event would have played out if those opposing the fascist march had simply ignored it, instead of actively trying to barricade it?

What harm can a march really cause, when people simply refuse to acknowledge it?

[Kato]

If you want to go about battering people then it will stand up to scrutiny. You condemn owen Jones getting battered by fascists while advocating going out and battering Farage. That makes you just like them

No, it just doesn't.

[Fife-Hibee]

So the allies battering the Nazis made them as bad as the Nazis? You're warbling.

The Nazis took over the whole of Germany, something that would never have happened had they simply been ignored by the population of Germany. WW2 was a loss to us all.

[makaveli1875]

So the allies battering the Nazis made them as bad as the Nazis? You're warbling.

Your warbling. Farage hasn't battered you or anyone else. He might be a slavering erse but I don't think that warrants giving him a kicking

[Hibrandenburg]

The Nazis took over the whole of Germany, something that would never have happened had they simply been ignored by the population of Germany. WW2 was a loss to us all.

That is just so mind blowingly untrue. :faf:

I'm beginning to suspect that Hibs Net has a crossover into a parallel universe.

[marinello59]

How do you think that event would have played out if those opposing the fascist march had simply ignored it, instead of actively trying to barricade it?

What harm can a march really cause, when people simply refuse to acknowledge it?

So if we just ignore Orange order marches and accept them the sectarian problems we have in the West of Scotland should simply disappear?

[Northernhibee]

Let's not forget about how "milkshaking" came about. Tommy Two-Names was, surrounded by his group of hangers on, giving grief to an Asian lad in the street on camera. The chap had a milkshake in his hand and arguably acted in self defence having felt intimidated.

That's not the same as going over to a man outside a pub and kicking him in the head unprovoked because he writes some articles that you disagree with.

[Hibrandenburg]

Your warbling. Farage hasn't battered you or anyone else. He might be a slavering erse but I don't think that warrants giving him a kicking

He's not battered me but he certainly has to take some credit for the rise in racial tension, racial attacks and the murder of at least 1 MP so far. Fascism doesn't start with concentration camps, it ends there after arriving as your friend.

[Kato]

The Nazis took over the whole of Germany, something that would never have happened had they simply been ignored by the population of Germany. WW2 was a loss to us all.

So ignoring didn't work in Germany.

How far are we down the line in the UK just now?

Is ignoring them an option?

[Fife-Hibee]

So if we just ignore Orange order marches and accept them the sectarian problems we have in the West of Scotland should simply disappear?
For the most part we do ignore them and their numbers have been greatly dwindling over time. Where as if we had counter protest after counter protest and tried to disrupt their marches they would be far larger in number than they are.


So ignoring didn't work in Germany.

How far are we down the line in the UK just now?

Is ignoring them an option?

Germany didn't ignore them, that's why it happened.

[Fife-Hibee]

That is just so mind blowingly untrue. :faf:

I'm beginning to suspect that Hibs Net has a crossover into a parallel universe.

Mind blowingly untrue? So the Germans did ignore the Nazis then?

So where did the millions of countless nazis come from then?

[Kato]

Germany didn't ignore them, that's why it happened.


That's quite an evasive answer. If you want to discuss this being coy isn't helping, just as saying "ignore them" with Nazi doesn't help.

[Cataplana]

Mind blowingly untrue? So the Germans did ignore the Nazis then?

So where did the millions of countless nazis come from then?

If there were millions how could the number be "countless?" :faf:

[Fife-Hibee]

That's quite an evasive answer. If you want to discuss this being coy isn't helping, just as saying "ignore them" with Nazi doesn't help.

It doesn't help now, because it's 80 years too late. If they had been ignored at the time in Germany, then WW2 wouldn't have happened. Millions of Jews, Communists and Europeans wouldn't have been slaughtered.

An army is only as strong as the number of people willing to follow it. That's a fact that can't be disputed.

[Lester B]

The Nazis took over the whole of Germany, something that would never have happened had they simply been ignored by the population of Germany. WW2 was a loss to us all.

Absurd comment

[Newry Hibs]

Nope, if you can't see the difference between spreading racial/ethnic hate and fighting fascism, then ask your great grandad, he'll put you right.

Right On! Here's another bloody brexit fascist getting what he deserved ...



22424

Maybe he's someone's great grandad?

[marinello59]

There goes another thread.

[Kato]

It doesn't help now, because it's 80 years too late. If they had been ignored at the time in Germany, then WW2 wouldn't have happened. Millions of Jews, Communists and Europeans wouldn't have been slaughtered.

An army is only as strong as the number of people willing to follow it. That's a fact that can't be disputed.

...and your logic is concept which is difficult to grasp. Thanks for the discussion.

[Fife-Hibee]

Absurd comment

What's "absurd" about it? You're all too happy to try and slap down my comments, but can't explain why.

An army without people isn't an army.

[Cataplana]

It doesn't help now, because it's 80 years too late. If they had been ignored at the time in Germany, then WW2 wouldn't have happened. Millions of Jews, Communists and Europeans wouldn't have been slaughtered.

An army is only as strong as the number of people willing to follow it. That's a fact that can't be disputed.

:faf: Deary me.


What's "absurd" about it? You're all too happy to try and slap down my comments, but can't explain why.

An army without people isn't an army.

:faf:

What is it then?

[Cataplana]

...and your logic is concept which is difficult to grasp. Thanks for the discussion.

Apparently ignoring something prevents it happening.

[Lester B]

What's "absurd" about it? You're all too happy to try and slap down my comments, but can't explain why.

An army without people isn't an army.

Do you have any knowledge of pre war German politics particularly from 1932 onwards? I'm surmising not. Because if you did you would not have made such absurd simplistic comments.

Should the Reichstag Fire Decree have been ignored? What about the Enabling Act? Night of the Long Knives?

[Fife-Hibee]

:faf: Deary me.

:faf:

What is it then?

Not really sure what you find so funny about that? :confused:

It's nothing. An army is built on people. You can't wage war or defend a country without the numbers.

Anyway, i'm ruining another thread with common sense apparently. :rolleyes: I'm out.

[Northernhibee]

Not really sure what you find so funny about that? :confused:

It's nothing. An army is built on people. You can't wage war or defend a country without the numbers.

Anyway, i'm ruining another thread with common sense apparently. :rolleyes: I'm out.

You're almost certainly ruining another thread with common sense, because you've not used it on this one.

[Cataplana]

You're almost certainly ruining another thread with common sense, because you've not used it on this one.

:top marks


Not really sure what you find so funny about that? :confused:

It's nothing. An army is built on people. You can't wage war or defend a country without the numbers.

Anyway, i'm ruining another thread with common sense apparently. :rolleyes: I'm out.

You know, it isn't funny at all. You are talking about a horrendous episode in world history without the slightest idea of what you are trying to say.

You ran out of victims of the Nazis, so decided to throw in a catch all "Europeans", nearly everybody who died in the war was European. :faf:

Have you got any sources you can refer us to to back up your claim that you need large numbers to wage war.

Guerilla warfare has been very successful from the American War of Independence onwards. It does not require on large numbers. :faf:

You are a chronic attention seeker, as your last sentence illustrates. What it has to do with me is a mystery.

:faf::faf::faf::faf::faf:

[Kato]

Apparently ignoring something prevents it happening.

I'm ignoring your post so it didn't happen.

[Northernhibee]

:top marks



You know, it isn't funny at all. You are talking about a horrendous episode in world history without the slightest idea of what you are trying to say.

You ran out of victims of the Nazis, so decided to throw in a catch all "Europeans", nearly everybody who died in the war was European. :faf:

Have you got any sources you can refer us to to back up your claim that you need large numbers to wage war.

Guerilla warfare has been very successful from the American War of Independence onwards. It does not require on large numbers. :faf:

You are a chronic attention seeker, as your last sentence illustrates. What it has to do with me is a mystery.

:faf::faf::faf::faf::faf:

It's really simple. You can't win a war without big numbers if you are facing a larger opposition who are against you. You can win a war with small numbers if they ignore you and let you carry on regardless.

Which is why it's vitally important that counterbalancing the far right by showing them to be charlatans, crooks, thugs and downright wrong at every opportunity.

[Cataplana]

It's really simple. You can't win a war without big numbers if you are facing a larger opposition who are against you. You can win a war with small numbers if they ignore you and let you carry on regardless.

Which is why it's vitally important that counterbalancing the far right by showing them to be charlatans, crooks, thugs and downright wrong at every opportunity.

In which case any war between countries would be decided on the size of the army, but that isn't always the case. It's the skill of the army and the willingness of their opponents to fight, I would have thought.

[Northernhibee]

In which case any war between countries would be decided on the size of the army, but that isn't always the case. It's the skill of the army and the willingness of their opponents to fight, I would have thought.

Yes. One person is powerful if they remain unopposed.

[Hibrandenburg]

Right On! Here's another bloody brexit fascist getting what he deserved ...



22424

Maybe he's someone's great grandad?

Is he Nigel Farage? Was he preaching fascist ideals? Is he a racist?

If you want me to condone someone attacking an elderly gentleman just because he supports Brexit, then you're not going to get that from me.

[Hibrandenburg]

There goes another thread.

:greengrin Apologies, I should know better than to rise to the bait.

[makaveli1875]

Is he Nigel Farage? Was he preaching fascist ideals? Is he a racist?

If you want me to condone someone attacking an elderly gentleman just because he supports Brexit, then you're not going to get that from me.

What fascist ideals is Farage preaching, asking for a friend

[Northernhibee]

What fascist ideals is Farage preaching, asking for a friend



Definition of fascism

1


often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (such as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autocratic) government headed by a dictatorial (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictatorial) leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

"A regime that exalts nation and race above the individual"

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/06/19/10/farage.jpg?w968h681



that stands for a centralized autocratic (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/autocratic) government headed by a dictatorial (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dictatorial) leader

https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/nigel-farage-brexit-party-european-elections-video-channel-4-news/


and forcible suppression of opposition

https://www.indy100.com/article/nigel-farage-brexit-civil-service-military-lbc-kim-darroch-9000151

[G B Young]

Because they've also fallen by the wayside too.

Between UKIP, BNP and Brexit Ltd. how many MPs do they currently have? None.

How many have they ever had? One.

They've been kept at bay by activism, campaigning, engaging with people to let them know what they actually stand for.

It was the first past the post electoral system which kept UKIP at bay. In the 2015 general election they secured 12.7% of the vote (that's nearly 4 million voters) - a total only bettered by the Tories and Labour. Yet they only won one seat while the SNP won 56 seats with only 4.7% of the vote.

They started to fall apart due to infighting, Farage's departure and, of course, the fact their primary ambition (independence from Europe) appeared to have been achieved in 2016. The fact Farage's Brexit Party have so seamlessly stepped into their place, though, underlines the depth of feeling among frustrated yes voters.

[Hibrandenburg]

What fascist ideals is Farage preaching, asking for a friend

Tell your friend to read the answer from the friendly Northerhibee above.

[Pretty Boy]

If ignoring things makes them go away I have a cunning plan for how to improve the Holy Ground.......

[lyonhibs]

"A regime that exalts nation and race above the individual"

https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/thumbnails/image/2016/06/19/10/farage.jpg?w968h681




https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/nigel-farage-brexit-party-european-elections-video-channel-4-news/



https://www.indy100.com/article/nigel-farage-brexit-civil-service-military-lbc-kim-darroch-9000151

And that, is very much that.

Farage is a facist little oik, a complete twat and whilst I am not a cheerleader for Owen Jones, a comparison between the 2 that remotely equates them isn't to be taken seriously be folk with 2 brain cells to rub together IMO.

[Cataplana]

Yes. One person is powerful if they remain unopposed.

One person is also powerful if they are opposed, if they have access to nuclear weapons, and the opponent doesn't.

[Mantis Toboggan]

And that, is very much that.

Farage is a facist little oik, a complete twat and whilst I am not a cheerleader for Owen Jones, a comparison between the 2 that remotely equates them isn't to be taken seriously be folk with 2 brain cells to rub together IMO.

An accurate description of the person who made the comparison I think

[beensaidbefore]

Forgive me if this has been covered somewhere in amp gst the tit for tat, apart from Owen Jones asserting it was definitely far right supporters who carries out this attack, is there actually any evidence to back this claim up?

[bigwheel]

Forgive me if this has been covered somewhere in amp gst the tit for tat, apart from Owen Jones asserting it was definitely far right supporters who carries out this attack, is there actually any evidence to back this claim up?


Don't know..but it is hard to think who else it could possibly have been.. there had been no altercation? No pre engagement with them....

[Cataplana]

Forgive me if this has been covered somewhere in amp gst the tit for tat, apart from Owen Jones asserting it was definitely far right supporters who carries out this attack, is there actually any evidence to back this claim up?

What is known is that Jones was attacked, and he described it as premeditated and based on his politics. Four guys were waiting for him when he left the pub at 3 am.

[beensaidbefore]

Don't know..but it is hard to think who else it could possibly have been.. there had been no altercation? No pre engagement with them....

I agree, it does seem that way, but I suppose my opinion has been heavily influenced by what has been reported. Media reports certainly support the narrative that he was likely to be a target at some point. Uncomfortable with it becoming fact at this stage based purely on the word or the victim and his close allies.

There was a guy killed last week leaving a shopping centre in Newcastle in what seems to be a random attack, so these things do happen without a premeditated reason.

[beensaidbefore]

What is known is that Jones was attacked, and he described it as premeditated and based on his politics. Four guys were waiting for him when he left the pub at 3 am.

My slight issue that its his perception of the attacker. It could have just been 4 randoms who didn't like the look of him etc. Given what has been said elsewhere it does seem likely that the attackers wil have targeted him specifically, but I'm going to reserve judgement until there is a bit more than his version of events out there.

[bigwheel]

I agree, it does seem that way, but I suppose my opinion has been heavily influenced by what has been reported. Media reports certainly support the narrative that he was likely to be a target at some point. Uncomfortable with it becoming fact at this stage based purely on the word or the victim and his close allies.

There was a guy killed last week leaving a shopping centre in Newcastle in what seems to be a random attack, so these things do happen without a premeditated reason.

yeah..fair points...the fact that they ran past his friends and attacked him, only attacking his friends when they leapt to his defence...suggests it was pre-meditated attack on Jones - and therefore a group against him

[Cataplana]

My slight issue that its his perception of the attacker. It could have just been 4 randoms who didn't like the look of him etc. Given what has been said elsewhere it does seem likely that the attackers wil have targeted him specifically, but I'm going to reserve judgement until there is a bit more than his version of events out there.

I agree, could just as easily be something he said in the pub.

[bigwheel]

I agree, could just as easily be something he said in the pub.

Really? An outspoken political Figure (who has been attacked a number of times before ) is jumped ..according to Jones and people with him - it was a Completely unprovoked attack ..

I’d say it is much more likely politically motivated

[Hibbyradge]

This thread looks like a hoot. I was very tempted to take someone off my ignore list, but I managed to resist.

Reading between the lines, I think the point is being made that if you ignore people they go away.

In this case, it's true and I'm all the better for doing so! :thumbsup:

[Cataplana]

Really? An outspoken political Figure (who has been attacked a number of times before ) is jumped ..according to Jones and people with him - it was a Completely unprovoked attack ..

I’d say it is much more likely politically motivated

I don't know the facts on this case.

However, an open mind is important, as other possibilities have to be excluded.

[G B Young]

Forgive me if this has been covered somewhere in amp gst the tit for tat, apart from Owen Jones asserting it was definitely far right supporters who carries out this attack, is there actually any evidence to back this claim up?

Until I saw this thread I didn't actually know who Owen Jones was. Is he especially well known? ie well known enough to attract such supposedly pre-meditated ire from alleged far right vigilantes?

As you say, according to the reports it's only Jones himself who has pointed the finger at the far right. The police have simply condemned it as a senseless attack - of which there are a depressingly large number across the UK every weekend.

[Cataplana]

Until I saw this thread I didn't actually know who Owen Jones was. Is he especially well known? ie well known enough to attract such supposedly pre-meditated ire from alleged far right vigilantes?

As you say, according to the reports it's only Jones himself who has pointed the finger at the far right. The police have simply condemned it as a senseless attack - of which there are a depressingly large number across the UK every weekend.

Neither did I, and I'm asking the same questions as you.

[Northernhibee]

Neither did I, and I'm asking the same questions as you.
Yes, he was also intimidated at the same time as Anna Soubry was, has also been crowded since and has a Guardian column.

[Hibrandenburg]

Until I saw this thread I didn't actually know who Owen Jones was. Is he especially well known? ie well known enough to attract such supposedly pre-meditated ire from alleged far right vigilantes?

As you say, according to the reports it's only Jones himself who has pointed the finger at the far right. The police have simply condemned it as a senseless attack - of which there are a depressingly large number across the UK every weekend.

That surprises me. He's an outspoken left wing newspaper columnist who has a reasonably high media profile. He'll be well known to the extreme right and an attractive target for them. He speaks a lot of sense which rarely goes down well with the far right.

[Cataplana]

Yes, he was also intimidated at the same time as Anna Soubry was, has also been crowded since and has a Guardian column.

Thanks.

[bigwheel]

Until I saw this thread I didn't actually know who Owen Jones was. Is he especially well known? ie well known enough to attract such supposedly pre-meditated ire from alleged far right vigilantes?

As you say, according to the reports it's only Jones himself who has pointed the finger at the far right. The police have simply condemned it as a senseless attack - of which there are a depressingly large number across the UK every weekend.

Yes. He is a major left wing political and LGBT activist and new media journalist ...high profile and active voice

[bigwheel]

I don't know the facts on this case.

However, an open mind is important, as other possibilities have to be excluded.

True about open minds ....As is empathy and respect for the views of the victim..Jones has very recently also shared that he now has evidence that it was politically motivated .

[Hibbyradge]

That surprises me. He's an outspoken left wing newspaper columnist who has a reasonably high media profile. He'll be well known to the extreme right and an attractive target for them. He speaks a lot of sense which rarely goes down well with the far right.

He's also gay which elevates his target status in those circles even further.

[Hibbyradge]

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1163512469932969985?s=09

[Northernhibee]

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1163512469932969985?s=09

Just look at the replies. Appalling.

[bigwheel]

Just look at the replies. Appalling.

Disgraceful isn’t it ....

[G B Young]

That surprises me. He's an outspoken left wing newspaper columnist who has a reasonably high media profile. He'll be well known to the extreme right and an attractive target for them. He speaks a lot of sense which rarely goes down well with the far right.

Thanks. Think I'm getting him mixed up with that Labour MP Owen Smith who stood against Corbyn for leader a couple of years back when Corbyn lost a vote of no confidence. He was a former journo type IIRC.

[beensaidbefore]

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1163512469932969985?s=09

Having a read of that. Pretty disgraceful really. Don't think this tweet is going to do him any favours. Doh!

https://mobile.twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/897599759439056897

[G B Young]

He's also gay which elevates his target status in those circles even further.

Arguably (sadly) a more common cause of such an incident.

[G B Young]

Just look at the replies. Appalling.

Being accused of doing a Jussie Smollet (someone else I'd never heard of before):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47311145

[Slavers]

Being accused of doing a Jussie Smollet (someone else I'd never heard of before):

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-47311145

Obviously I don't know what happened because I was not there but noting the lack of injuries to Owen Jones i would not be surprised at all if it was indeed another Jussie Smollet type of claim.

My own experience when I was kicked unconscious by a group of young men I was in a right mess, hospitalized face battered and bruised with scabs all over my face and head. I did not even bother going to the police it was just another night up the high street on a sat night being drunk in pubs when i was younger.

This has massive media coverage (maybe rightly so) and has been instantly blamed on the rise of the far right hooligans and thugs, well these far right thugs must inflict the softest blows known to man.

Surely nothing to be afraid off?

Tongue in cheek here!

[Hibbyradge]

Obviously I don't know what happened because I was not there but noting the lack of injuries to Owen Jones i would not be surprised at all if it was indeed another Jussie Smollet type of claim.

My own experience when I was kicked unconscious by a group of young men I was in a right mess, hospitalized face battered and bruised with scabs all over my face and head. I did not even bother going to the police it was just another night up the high street on a sat night being drunk in pubs when i was younger.

This has massive media coverage (maybe rightly so) and has been instantly blamed on the rise of the far right hooligans and thugs, well these far right thugs must inflict the softest blows known to man.

Surely nothing to be afraid off?

Tongue in cheek here!

He wasn't kicked unconscious though.

[Slavers]

He wasn't kicked unconscious though.

No it looks like he was barely touched.

But as I said his story could be true I'm only commenting on what I see but if he was indeed attacked by 3 or 4 men then he had one heck of a lucky end result.

I'm sure there must be CCTV footage of it?

[Hibbyradge]

No it looks like he was barely touched.

But as I said his story could be true I'm only commenting on what I see but if he was indeed attacked by 3 or 4 men then he had one heck of a lucky end result.

I'm sure there must be CCTV footage of it?

I think he was with friends who intervened to protect him.

I don't know what he would achieve by making it up.

[Slavers]

I think he was with friends who intervened to protect him.

I don't know what he would achieve by making it up.

I could speculate on a number of reasons why he would but I'd be in danger of straying into Fife-Hibee territory.

[Hibbyradge]

I could speculate on a number of reasons why he would but I'd be in danger of straying into Fife-Hibee territory.

:greengrin

You might indeed, but given that Owen's a high profile journalist with one of the country's most respected broadsheets, he doesn't need to invent assaults to get a platform.

The replies to his tweet would suggest that there are any number of people who would like to assault him. Although none of them would because they're all keyboard warriors, safely bullying and abusing from afar.

[Mibbes Aye]

That surprises me. He's an outspoken left wing newspaper columnist who has a reasonably high media profile. He'll be well known to the extreme right and an attractive target for them. He speaks a lot of sense which rarely goes down well with the far right.

I would have to disagree that he speaks a lot of sense.

His writing is narcissistic and self-obsessed. His interpretation of politics is A-level at best, with an accompanying fervent and fanboyish enthusiasm of whatever cause he is signed up to.

I sincerely hope he is okay and not hurt but he is a terrible journalist and a poor op-writer.

[CloudSquall]

He was loving it when Farage and co we're getting hit by milkshakes and essentially telling them to man up and that they were fair game, quite amusing to watch his amateur dramatics now about violence.

[bigwheel]

He was loving it when Farage and co we're getting hit by milkshakes and essentially telling them to man up and that they were fair game, quite amusing to watch his amateur dramatics now about violence.

That’s quite a startling opinion ....violent attacks are quite a long way from milk shake throwing ..naively, it really surprises me people have these sort of views . Always good to see how others think I guess.

There’s already been a politician killed (Jo cox) for her political beliefs since the brexit journey began...how long until another political figure is seriously hurt in our divided nation ?

[mjhibby]

I would have to disagree that he speaks a lot of sense.

His writing is narcissistic and self-obsessed. His interpretation of politics is A-level at best, with an accompanying fervent and fanboyish enthusiasm of whatever cause he is signed up to.
I sincerely hope he is okay and not hurt but he is a terrible journalist and a poor op-writer.

While he is not the best he is nowhere as bad as some on the telegraph and mail who are merely mouthpieces for the ( purga)Tory party with no thought or original thinking at all.
Strange he thinks it was political. Could more likely be just wrong time wrong place. The guardian would no doubt instantly see it as political but unless Jones knows something then I doubt it. Actually don't mind him as he seems an ok guy but very limited in grasping issues.

[Cataplana]

:greengrin

You might indeed, but given that Owen's a high profile journalist with one of the country's most respected broadsheets, he doesn't need to invent assaults to get a platform.

The replies to his tweet would suggest that there are any number of people who would like to assault him. Although none of them would because they're all keyboard warriors, safely bullying and abusing from afar.

Sorry, shades of Russian submarines about that one. The British Press has a very low approval rating, compared to other countries, so working for them doesn't count for much in my book.


I would have to disagree that he speaks a lot of sense.

His writing is narcissistic and self-obsessed. His interpretation of politics is A-level at best, with an accompanying fervent and fanboyish enthusiasm of whatever cause he is signed up to.

I sincerely hope he is okay and not hurt but he is a terrible journalist and a poor op-writer.

If that's the case, it wouldn't be inconsistent that he would play up the incident to bolster his image as a folk hero.


That’s quite a startling opinion ....violent attacks are quite a long way from milk shake throwing ..naively, it really surprises me people have these sort of views . Always good to see how others think I guess.

There’s already been a politician killed (Jo cox) for her political beliefs since the brexit journey began...how long until another political figure is seriously hurt in our divided nation ?

I don't think the danger is as big as it appears. Some are playing to people's fears and making it sound like a massive problem.

It was a minor affray at 3 in the morning outside a pub.

[bigwheel]

Sorry, shades of Russian submarines about that one. The British Press has a very low approval rating, compared to other countries, so working for them doesn't count for much in my book.



If that's the case, it wouldn't be inconsistent that he would play up the incident to bolster his image as a folk hero.



I don't think the danger is as big as it appears. Some are playing to people's fears and making it sound like a massive problem.

It was a minor affray at 3 in the morning outside a pub.

Tbh. You didn’t know about the guy until a couple of days ago..no idea about his character or history of attacks on him ...so, It’s interesting that your starting position seems to be coming from a critical / doubting position on the victim ... no criticism of the attackers ..quite like your position on the McCann case

I also noted in a recent post you were critical (disrespectful?) to those on here who share these “fan boy views” or something like that

Fire away buddy ...

Me - I’ll stick with empathy to those who find themselves physically attacked due to them being brave enough to be outspoken against hate filled views ...

[G B Young]

That’s quite a startling opinion ....violent attacks are quite a long way from milk shake throwing ..naively, it really surprises me people have these sort of views . Always good to see how others think I guess.

There’s already been a politician killed (Jo cox) for her political beliefs since the brexit journey began...how long until another political figure is seriously hurt in our divided nation ?

Thankfully such extreme incidents are these days extremely rare, and in Jo Cox's case her assassin had a long history of psychiatric problems so you have to hope it was a one-off tragedy. It's not so long ago that several MPs were assassinated by the IRA and associated terrorist bodies prior to the Good Friday agreement. I'm old enough to remember the Airey Neave car bombing, plus of course there was the Brighton hotel bombing which could potentially have wiped out most of the cabinet. It was a far more dangerous time than now, although we need a solution asap to the ongoing angst over the Irish backstop and the Stormont deadlock.

This relatively minor incident involving a Guardian journalist pales into insignificance in comparison to the above atrocities.

[Cataplana]

Tbh. You didn’t know about the guy until a couple of days ago..no idea about his character or history of attacks on him ...so, It’s interesting that your starting position seems to be coming from a critical / doubting position on the victim ... no criticism of the attackers ..quite like your position on the McCann case

I also noted in a recent post you were critical (disrespectful?) to those on here who share these “fan boy views” or something like that

Fire away buddy ...

Me - I’ll stick with empathy to those who find themselves physically attacked due to them being brave enough to be outspoken against hate filled views ...

Deary me, we have a living Saint in our midst. Thank you for an imaginative and mature discussion.

Can I respectfully point out, you don't know him either, and that I am only speculating on what he might be.

If you want to debate McCann, there is a thread for that. If you want to discuss the facts of that case, that's the place to do it.

If you want to question recent posts, please tell me what they are, and I can respond. You seem to be trying to win an argument here, by creating an us and then attitude. Which sees you as the arbiter of all that is good and right.

I am increasingly reluctant to join in discussions on politics as it seems it quickly descends into tribalism, and date I say it bullying.

If you want to deconstruct my point that some journalists and politicians exaggerate events to promote their self image fair enough.

I can see your concern about escalating violence though when people like you go picking fights in the way you have.

We won't beat totalitarianism by silencing self criticism.

[lapsedhibee]

I would have to disagree that he speaks a lot of sense.

His writing is narcissistic and self-obsessed. His interpretation of politics is A-level at best, with an accompanying fervent and fanboyish enthusiasm of whatever cause he is signed up to.

I sincerely hope he is okay and not hurt but he is a terrible journalist and a poor op-writer.

:agree:


If that's the case, it wouldn't be inconsistent that he would play up the incident to bolster his image as a folk hero.

Or to get invited on to every radio show going to hear the sound of his own voice, which he absolutely loves, broadcast.

[Cataplana]

:agree:



Or to get invited on to every radio show going to hear the sound of his own voice, which he absolutely loves, broadcast.

I am always suspicious of people who try to paint themselves into the image of "voice of the people". Whether it's the down home fascism of the likes of Garage and Trump, or the self serving socialism of the likes of Tony Benn.

It makes me think of the people who were jailed after the George Square "riot" in 1919. Shinwell, who got the shortest sentence, milked it for the rest of his days. (Not my interpretation, I got that in Willie Gallagher's autobiography.

Likewise, there were a lot of people who spent their lives bumming up their minimal involvement in the Spanish Civil War, often taking credit for other men's sacrifice.

I'm sure there are those who made a career for themselves as a result of the UCS work in, or the miners strike.

In fairness to Mr. Jones, he might not fit that bill, and he might we'll talk sense rather than hyperbole. However, it would be foolish to see the world in terms of white hats and black hats, and not to acknowledge that human ambition can also come into play.

[Kato]

Sorry, shades of Russian submarines about that one. The British Press has a very low approval rating, compared to other countries, so working for them doesn't count for much in my book.



If that's the case, it wouldn't be inconsistent that he would play up the incident to bolster his image as a folk hero.



I don't think the danger is as big as it appears. Some are playing to people's fears and making it sound like a massive problem.

It was a minor affray at 3 in the morning outside a pub.


i.e. - nothing to see here, move on.

[Smartie]

He's not all bad.

Whilst I like some of what he has to say, he comes out with some really idiotic garbage on subjects he couldn't possibly know anything about that has me wanting to smack him on the head myself.

He makes a good point in his tweet and that is about holding our right wing leaders to account when their irresponsible use of language leads to physical violence.

The fact that he had that previous tweet somewhat undermines his argument - hypocrisy being something he can certainly lapse into on occasion.

On balance I think he can be a decent antidote to the overwhelmingly right wing tide of noise that seems to come from the "mainstream media" even if I frequently disagree with him.

[Kato]

Thankfully such extreme incidents are these days extremely rare, and in Jo Cox's case her assassin had a long history of psychiatric problems so you have to hope it was a one-off tragedy.


The mental illness excuse. The guy was a avid right-wing bigot. It might sound mad to hold those views but it doesn't mean the person is ill, just brutally inadequate.

[Smartie]

Thankfully such extreme incidents are these days extremely rare, and in Jo Cox's case her assassin had a long history of psychiatric problems so you have to hope it was a one-off tragedy. It's not so long ago that several MPs were assassinated by the IRA and associated terrorist bodies prior to the Good Friday agreement. I'm old enough to remember the Airey Neave car bombing, plus of course there was the Brighton hotel bombing which could potentially have wiped out most of the cabinet. It was a far more dangerous time than now, although we need a solution asap to the ongoing angst over the Irish backstop and the Stormont deadlock.

This relatively minor incident involving a Guardian journalist pales into insignificance in comparison to the above atrocities.

Violence against journalists is not something we should ever tolerate lightly.

His very point is that if we don't want to go back to the darker and more dangerous days of the past then we need to stop our leaders from being able to get away with increasingly inflammatory language that has inevitable consequences.

Where do you draw the line?

[Cataplana]

i.e. - nothing to see here, move on.

No, but wouldn't that just play into some people's simplistic assessment of the situation?


The mental illness excuse. The guy was a avid right-wing bigot. It might sound mad to hold those views but it doesn't mean the person is ill, just brutally inadequate.

:agree:

People who commit a crime whilst mentally ill don't get sent to prison.


Violence against journalists is not something we should ever tolerate lightly.

His very point is that if we don't want to go back to the darker and more dangerous days of the past then we need to stop our leaders from being able to get away with increasingly inflammatory language that has inevitable consequences.

Where do you draw the line?

What does that actually mean?

[Hibrandenburg]

I would have to disagree that he speaks a lot of sense.

His writing is narcissistic and self-obsessed. His interpretation of politics is A-level at best, with an accompanying fervent and fanboyish enthusiasm of whatever cause he is signed up to.

I sincerely hope he is okay and not hurt but he is a terrible journalist and a poor op-writer.

I would have to disagree. He writes and speaks at a level where even someone with a rudimentary education can understand his message. This is one of the reasons the right hate him, because he can get his message over to their target audience, that's something the left have been dearly lacking.

[Smartie]

What does that actually mean?

The post I quoted described car bomb attacks and the attempted assassination of the cabinet.

The murder of Jo Cox was appalling, but in many ways it was an aberration.

Violence used to be more commonplace, it is less so now.

It would be nice to keep it that way, and the rhetoric from the likes of Trump, Farage and others empower our lunatics to think that violence might be the answer.

It rarely is.

[Cataplana]

The post I quoted described car bomb attacks and the attempted assassination of the cabinet.

The murder of Jo Cox was appalling, but in many ways it was an aberration.

Violence used to be more commonplace, it is less so now.

It would be nice to keep it that way, and the rhetoric from the likes of Trump, Farage and others empower our lunatics to think that violence might be the answer.

It rarely is.

Thanks, you make a good point.

[Kato]

I would have to disagree. He writes and speaks at a level where even someone with a rudimentary education. This is one of the reasons the right hate him, because he can get his message over to their target audience, that's something the left have been dearly lacking.

Pretty much agree. I'm not a Guardian reader but have seen some of his stuff online. Not with him all the time when he's pushing the Labour Party line but this was a great read and it's difficult to argue with.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chavs-Demonization-Working-Owen-Jones/dp/1844678644

[bigwheel]

Deary me, we have a living Saint in our midst. Thank you for an imaginative and mature discussion.

Can I respectfully point out, you don't know him either, and that I am only speculating on what he might be.

If you want to debate McCann, there is a thread for that. If you want to discuss the facts of that case, that's the place to do it.

If you want to question recent posts, please tell me what they are, and I can respond. You seem to be trying to win an argument here, by creating an us and then attitude. Which sees you as the arbiter of all that is good and right.

I am increasingly reluctant to join in discussions on politics as it seems it quickly descends into tribalism, and date I say it bullying.

If you want to deconstruct my point that some journalists and politicians exaggerate events to promote their self image fair enough.

I can see your concern about escalating violence though when people like you go picking fights in the way you have.

We won't beat totalitarianism by silencing self criticism.

It is very simple point I am noting - Your starting point here is the victim perhaps should not be believed ..you seem to not trust his public or journalistic persona on it ...

It is not my starting point ..Owen Jones, as a young gay and vocally political man, will have had enough challenges and attacks in his life to have the right to say “enough is enough”..and it not all be about his ego.

[Cataplana]

It is very simple point I am noting - Your starting point here is the victim perhaps should not be believed ..you seem to not trust his public or journalistic persona on it ...

It is not my starting point ..Owen Jones, as a young gay and vocally political man, will have had enough challenges and attacks in his life to have the right to say “enough is enough”..and it not all be about his ego.

"Perhaps", well that's insulting me whilst covering your back at the same time. Perhaps that's not what I said at all.

Your starting point seems to be based on what you imagine Owen Jones' situation is, and - to be honest - smacks of transference, as you project your own experiences, either wholly, or in part onto other people.

I have nothing against Owen Jones. I am only saying, it wouldn't be unusual for someone to use an attack to promote their own self image; on the other hand, he may have a genuine fear that he is being singled out, and be calling attention to it.

Who knows, perhaps he is frustrated with the police? It takes all sorts, and anybody who thinks the world is simply a case of good guys versus bad guys, has "left his playpen unco early", as Sidney Goodsyr Smith once wrote.

[Kato]

I have nothing against Owen Jones. I am only saying, it wouldn't be unusual for someone to use an attack to promote their own self image; on the other hand, he may have a genuine fear that he is being singled out, and be calling attention to it.

Who knows, perhaps he is frustrated with the police? It takes all sorts, and anybody who thinks the world is simply a case of good guys versus bad guys, has "left his playpen unco early", as Sidney Goodsyr Smith once wrote.


In other words you don't have clue what happened but your "only saying" that the (alleged) victim might be making it all up without evidence either way.

Why say anything at all?

[WeeRussell]

Deary me, we have a living Saint in our midst. Thank you for an imaginative and mature discussion.

Can I respectfully point out, you don't know him either, and that I am only speculating on what he might be.

If you want to debate McCann, there is a thread for that. If you want to discuss the facts of that case, that's the place to do it.

If you want to question recent posts, please tell me what they are, and I can respond. You seem to be trying to win an argument here, by creating an us and then attitude. Which sees you as the arbiter of all that is good and right.

I am increasingly reluctant to join in discussions on politics as it seems it quickly descends into tribalism, and date I say it bullying.

If you want to deconstruct my point that some journalists and politicians exaggerate events to promote their self image fair enough.

I can see your concern about escalating violence though when people like you go picking fights in the way you have.

We won't beat totalitarianism by silencing self criticism.

Just as an aside, and not intended as a dig, that post really reminded me of a poem :greengrin

[Cataplana]

Just as an aside, and not intended as a dig, that post really reminded me of a poem :greengrin

Great spot, I'm a poet and I don't know it. Although I do make exceedingly good cakes.:greengrin

[Cataplana]

In other words you don't have clue what happened but your "only saying" that the (alleged) victim might be making it all up without evidence either way.

Why say anything at all?

Well, if that's the way you want to spin it, go ahead. I think a reasonable person reading my posts wouldn't see it that way at all, so that's something for you to reflect upon.

Basically, you've interpreted keep an open mind, as being an attack on the victim of an assault. Your use of the word "alleged" could be twisted and manipulated to suggest you don't believe him either, but I know what you mean - or I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Don't follow leaders, feed the parking meters.

[G B Young]

The mental illness excuse. The guy was a avid right-wing bigot. It might sound mad to hold those views but it doesn't mean the person is ill, just brutally inadequate.

I think it's safe to say he wasn't deemed mentally ill because he held extreme right-wing views. IIRC he suffered from OCD which, as anyone who has had dealings with sufferers or suffers from it themselves will know, can be an alarming and upsetting condition. However, I'm guessing the fact he was sentenced to life imprisonment meant that this was not regarded as a contributory factor.

There was a similar incident about 10 years back when the Labour MP Stephen Timms was stabbed by a female Islamist extremist in his constituency surgery. Thankfully he survived, but it was touch and go as I recall, and she was also sentenced to life.

[Kato]

IIRC he suffered from OCD

What other psychiatric problems did he have?

[Smartie]

Great spot, I'm a poet and I don't know it. Although I do make exceedingly good cakes.:greengrin

What is that delicious looking stuff in your avatar?

[G B Young]

What other psychiatric problems did he have?

Without going back and reading up on the case I don't know. I just recall that there was mention of OCD-associated behaviour by his family/the police.

My point wasn't an attempt to excuse him though (and as I said, any health issues he suffered from were not deemed relevant to his crime). I was just suggesting that the murder of an MP is, thankfully, less common than it once was and it's to be hoped that people capable of such an act are exceptionally rare.

I would not, however, dismiss mental illness as an 'excuse' if it had a genuine bearing upon a criminal act. As somebody who has had close dealings over the years with a number of people suffering from various forms of mental illness, I know very well that its impact upon an individual's behaviour can be massive.

[bigwheel]

"Perhaps", well that's insulting me whilst covering your back at the same time. Perhaps that's not what I said at all.

Your starting point seems to be based on what you imagine Owen Jones' situation is, and - to be honest - smacks of transference, as you project your own experiences, either wholly, or in part onto other people.

I have nothing against Owen Jones. I am only saying, it wouldn't be unusual for someone to use an attack to promote their own self image; on the other hand, he may have a genuine fear that he is being singled out, and be calling attention to it.

Who knows, perhaps he is frustrated with the police? It takes all sorts, and anybody who thinks the world is simply a case of good guys versus bad guys, has "left his playpen unco early", as Sidney Goodsyr Smith once wrote.

What does “imagined what the situation is” mean?? it can only ever be my perception ..

I know Owen Jones work. I have seen him stand up to hate , violence and inequality for years. I don’t share all the same views as him, but I do respect the integrity of his activity.

Tbh, even if there was self promotion in his agenda, which there may be - it doesn’t make it wrong . Owen Jones gets attacked, will likely be attacked in the future ..because he is brave enough to stand up for causes he believes in, and call out hate where he sees it .

IYes, thankfully he wasn’t badly hurt. But that is only a rear view analysis ..he didn’t know that was certain as the attack happened. As a result I have empathy for the situation he found himself in. it appears to me that you don’t?

I look forward to more of you calling me “son”, pseudo intellectual quotes etc. They are enlightening and engaging...

[Cataplana]

What does “imagined what the situation is” mean?? it can only ever be my perception ..

I know Owen Jones work. I have seen him stand up to hate , violence and inequality for years. I don’t share all the same views as him, but I do respect the integrity of his activity.

Tbh, even if there was self promotion in his agenda, which there may be - it doesn’t make it wrong . Owen Jones gets attacked, will likely be attacked in the future ..because he is brave enough to stand up for causes he believes in, and call out hate where he sees it .

IYes, thankfully he wasn’t badly hurt. But that is only a rear view analysis ..he didn’t know that was certain as the attack happened. As a result I have empathy for the situation he found himself in. it appears to me that you don’t?

I look forward to more of you calling me “son”, pseudo intellectual quotes etc. They are enlightening and engaging...

If I called you "son" I apologise. In fact I regret the way our conversation has deteriorated, as I think we both stand against the same things Owen Jones writes about.

edit: I tend to agree with this: "Tbh, even if there was self promotion in his agenda, which there may be - it doesn’t make it wrong ."

Just because the messengers motives are questionable it doesn't make the message wrong. We differ in that I have a cynicism that allows the messenger to be a human, rather than some comic book hero.

That's where I suspect you are guilty of transference. For some reason, you want Owen Jones to be the hero. See him as a human with frailties rather than a class warrior and you are less likely to be disappointed, IMO.

Other than that your post appears to be a conversation with yourself, as I don't recall asking any of the questions you appear to be answering.

Conversely, any of the questions or points I do make, you don't answer. So, I can't see the point in discussing it more with you.

Maybe if you were comfortable discussing shades of grey, and concepts, and didn't use silly phrases like "pseudo intellectual" then there would be a point.

[lapsedhibee]

I was just suggesting that the murder of an MP is, thankfully, less common than it once was

Was it ever common? I'm reading 6 MPs between 1882-1990, so one every 18 years. 18 years is a lot of MPs (over 1000?). Whereas 25% of The Beatles were murdered.

[Cataplana]

What is that delicious looking stuff in your avatar?

It is a stew made in Portugal usually with seafood. It is called Cataplanas, after the pot it is cooked and served in. As it is effectively a pressure cooker, all the flavour is retained during cooking.

[Kato]

Without going back and reading up on the case I don't know. I just recall that there was mention of OCD-associated behaviour by his family/the police.

My point wasn't an attempt to excuse him though (and as I said, any health issues he suffered from were not deemed relevant to his crime). I was just suggesting that the murder of an MP is, thankfully, less common than it once was and it's to be hoped that people capable of such an act are exceptionally rare.

I would not, however, dismiss mental illness as an 'excuse' if it had a genuine bearing upon a criminal act. As somebody who has had close dealings over the years with a number of people suffering from various forms of mental illness, I know very well that its impact upon an individual's behaviour can be massive.

Sorry it's just that you stated he had "psychiatric problems", whereas it seems he has OCD and that's it. Violence in OCD might manifest itself in off-the-cuff anger but rarely as premeditated murder, or cold-blooded political assassination in this case. Maybe he just kept his bigot pamphlets really, really tidy.

I share your hope that it never happens again but sadly doubt it's the end of the violence, especially if Brexit actually happens.

[bigwheel]

If I called you "son" I apologise. In fact I regret the way our conversation has deteriorated, as I think we both stand against the same things Owen Jones writes about.

edit: I tend to agree with this: "Tbh, even if there was self promotion in his agenda, which there may be - it doesn’t make it wrong ."

Just because the messengers motives are questionable it doesn't make the message wrong. We differ in that I have a cynicism that allows the messenger to be a human, rather than some comic book hero.

That's where I suspect you are guilty of transference. For some reason, you want Owen Jones to be the hero. See him as a human with frailties rather than a class warrior and you are less likely to be disappointed, IMO.

Other than that your post appears to be a conversation with yourself, as I don't recall asking any of the questions you appear to be answering.

Conversely, any of the questions or points I do make, you don't answer. So, I can't see the point in discussing it more with you.

Maybe if you were comfortable discussing shades of grey, and concepts, and didn't use silly phrases like "pseudo intellectual" then there would be a point.

Cheers C..tbh. It has deteriorated into a bit of a ping pong battle rather than an exploration ..it’s not what I intended. You seem to look at the world through a different lens than I do, so I tend to explore your posts ..

The “son” comment doesn’t get the best from me ..apologies if I have been less than constructive

Will now explore the Portuguese stew that you mention in another posts and cease the interchange - I’m sure it was boring us all :).

[G B Young]

Was it ever common? I'm reading 6 MPs between 1882-1990, so one every 18 years. 18 years is a lot of MPs (over 1000?). Whereas 25% of The Beatles were murdered.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, most of those (four in fact, just checked) were murdered between 1979 and 1990 and that tally could easily have been significantly higher had the Brighton bomb wreaked greater havoc than it did.

[JimBHibees]

I don't think the danger is as big as it appears. Some are playing to people's fears and making it sound like a massive problem.

It was a minor affray at 3 in the morning outside a pub.

How do you know it was a minor affray? If it was indeed a targeted attack on an individual by a group where there has been no previous altercation I would say that was very unusual.

An MP has already lost their life which would suggest the danger is quite big.

[G B Young]

Sorry it's just that you stated he had "psychiatric problems", whereas it seems he has OCD and that's it. Violence in OCD might manifest itself in off-the-cuff anger but rarely as premeditated murder, or cold-blooded political assassination in this case. Maybe he just kept his bigot pamphlets really, really tidy.

I share your hope that it never happens again but sadly doubt it's the end of the violence, especially if Brexit actually happens.

If we can put the Jo Cox case to one side, OCD isn't simply about keeping things tidy or washing your hands 100 times a day. As with pretty much all mental health conditions, its complications can be widespread. While the majority of sufferers tend to understand that their behaviour makes little sense, others are plagued by intrusive, morbid and sometimes suicidal thoughts and (in the case of one sufferer I knew well) can convince themselves that they have caused something horrific to occur. Regular hospitalisation is the unhappy lot of a number of sufferers.

[Cataplana]

How do you know it was a minor affray? If it was indeed a targeted attack on an individual by a group where there has been no previous altercation I would say that was very usual.

An MP has already lost their life which would suggest the danger is quite big.

I'm judging the severity by the extent of his injuries, and the fact he said it was diffused by friends quickly.

Someone else has already posted the number of MPs who have been killed in the last 150 years, and it is not great. In the wake of Jo Cox, I would expect MPs are more aware of security, and that the police take it more seriously.

More GPs have been killed in the last 10 years. I am not saying it is something to be taken more seriously, but we can't look at an assault on a public figure as evidence that the right are any more organised than they ever were.

Its already been said he thought Farage getting assaulted was funny (I agreed) let's not take this guys scribblings as any form of objective evidence.

[Kato]

If we can put the Jo Cox case to one side, OCD isn't simply about keeping things tidy or washing your hands 100 times a day. As with pretty much all mental health conditions, its complications can be widespread. While the majority of sufferers tend to understand that their behaviour makes little sense, others are plagued by intrusive, morbid and sometimes suicidal thoughts and (in the case of one sufferer I knew well) can convince themselves that they have caused something horrific to occur. Regular hospitalisation is the unhappy lot of a number of sufferers.

That's pretty horrific but seems it had little bearing on his actions.

[Cataplana]

Cheers C..tbh. It has deteriorated into a bit of a ping pong battle rather than an exploration ..it’s not what I intended. You seem to look at the world through a different lens than I do, so I tend to explore your posts ..

The “son” comment doesn’t get the best from me ..apologies if I have been less than constructive

Will now explore the Portuguese stew that you mention in another posts and cease the interchange - I’m sure it was boring us all :).

Just when I was starting to enjoy myself too.

[beensaidbefore]

Well done to bigwheel and catiplana for having a disagreement but still managing to remain civil. Could teach the main board a thing or two. :aok:

[RyeSloan]

Well done to bigwheel and catiplana for having a disagreement but still managing to remain civil. Could teach the main board a thing or two. :aok:

The main board? Have you seen the IDS thread?!? [emoji23]

[Cataplana]

Just when I was starting to enjoy myself too.

I should also have said, I'm glad we fixed that, and thank you for listening to my point of view.

I realisr my reply was a a bit arsey, it wasn't meant to be.

[Hibernia&Alba]

It does seem the case that some idiots have taken the Brexit vote as vindication of racist/xenophobic behaviour. I believe the number of reported hate crimes has spiked since 2016 as the 'little Englander' mentality (though it isn't unique to England) seems to have become more outspoken. These clowns have always been here, but Brexit seems to have made them more confident, similar to the racists in America feeling emboldened by Trump.

[G B Young]

It does seem the case that some idiots have taken the Brexit vote as vindication of racist/xenophobic behaviour. I believe the number of reported hate crimes has spiked since 2016 as the 'little Englander' mentality (though it isn't unique to England) seems to have become more outspoken. These clowns have always been here, but Brexit seems to have made them more confident, similar to the racists in America feeling emboldened by Trump.

Yes, it's got the potential to present a significant problem, particularly if we do end up dropping out of the EU in especially messy fashion. However, I think our politicians must bear some of the responsibility for this due to the way the whole issue has become so tribal and attitudes are now so entrenched. As I've already mentioned, a number of MPs lost their lives during the worst of the IRA atrocities but that was a akin to a war whose roots could be traced back through centuries of strife. Brexit, as almost seems to have been forgotten, has come about due to a democratic vote, yet the rhetoric around it would have you believe we're on the brink of civil war. Surely both our MPs - and our society as a whole - should be capable of adopting a less confrontational approach to something which will have a profound effect on us all, leavers and remainers alike.

[Cataplana]

Yes, it's got the potential to present a significant problem, particularly if we do end up dropping out of the EU in especially messy fashion. However, I think our politicians must bear some of the responsibility for this due to the way the whole issue has become so tribal and attitudes are now so entrenched. As I've already mentioned, a number of MPs lost their lives during the worst of the IRA atrocities but that was a akin to a war whose roots could be traced back through centuries of strife. Brexit, as almost seems to have been forgotten, has come about due to a democratic vote, yet the rhetoric around it would have you believe we're on the brink of civil war. Surely both our MPs - and our society as a whole - should be capable of adopting a less confrontational approach to something which will have a profound effect on us all, leavers and remainers alike.

Ever considered that civil unrest is just what they want? Suspend democracy and impose martial law.

[Fife-Hibee]

Ever considered that civil unrest is just what they want? Suspend democracy and impose martial law.

That's just crazy conspiracy nonsense.







https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/18/brexit-cabinet-meets-to-discuss-ramping-up-plans-for-no-deal
:paranoid:

[Smartie]

Yes, it's got the potential to present a significant problem, particularly if we do end up dropping out of the EU in especially messy fashion. However, I think our politicians must bear some of the responsibility for this due to the way the whole issue has become so tribal and attitudes are now so entrenched. As I've already mentioned, a number of MPs lost their lives during the worst of the IRA atrocities but that was a akin to a war whose roots could be traced back through centuries of strife. Brexit, as almost seems to have been forgotten, has come about due to a democratic vote, yet the rhetoric around it would have you believe we're on the brink of civil war. Surely both our MPs - and our society as a whole - should be capable of adopting a less confrontational approach to something which will have a profound effect on us all, leavers and remainers alike.

I think you also have to look into the various factors that led to the vote going the way it went.

Something that Trump, Farage and the like love to do is to make people who are clearly not victims think that they are. Europe has been a particularly bloody corner of the globe forever, as has the British Isles. Recently (the last 50 years in Europe, the last 10-20 in Ireland and the UK) we have had an unusually trouble free period.

The Brexit movement want to make people who have had good lives (not lived in poverty, not fought in war or had their offspring go to war) feel in some way like they have been denied something by an "other" - the EU.

It might have been a democratic vote but much of the language surrounding it was very dubious indeed, and it is language of the type that has taken the human race to some very dark places indeed in the past.

[lapsedhibee]

I think you also have to look into the various factors that led to the vote going the way it went.

Something that Trump, Farage and the like love to do is to make people who are clearly not victims think that they are. Europe has been a particularly bloody corner of the globe forever, as has the British Isles. Recently (the last 50 years in Europe, the last 10 2- in Ireland and the UK) we have had an unusually trouble free period.

The Brexit movement want to make people who have had good lives (not lived in poverty, not fought in war or had their offspring go to war) feel in some way like they have been denied something by an "other" - the EU.

It might have been a democratic vote but much of the language surrounding it was very dubious indeed, and it is language of the type that has taken the human race to some very dark places indeed in the past.

:agree: I know a couple of Brexiters, who I would characterise as being more or less stinking rich, who believe that the EU are holding Britain back. They won't ever admit to it in so many words but what I think they are getting at is that they are victims of not being even stinkinger rich.

[JimBHibees]

I think you also have to look into the various factors that led to the vote going the way it went.

Something that Trump, Farage and the like love to do is to make people who are clearly not victims think that they are. Europe has been a particularly bloody corner of the globe forever, as has the British Isles. Recently (the last 50 years in Europe, the last 10-20 in Ireland and the UK) we have had an unusually trouble free period.

The Brexit movement want to make people who have had good lives (not lived in poverty, not fought in war or had their offspring go to war) feel in some way like they have been denied something by an "other" - the EU.

It might have been a democratic vote but much of the language surrounding it was very dubious indeed, and it is language of the type that has taken the human race to some very dark places indeed in the past.

Very good post. One of the fallouts of brexit will make it more likely of wars breaking out within Europe and beyond. Trump/Putin type figures will only make that much more likely also.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think you also have to look into the various factors that led to the vote going the way it went.

Something that Trump, Farage and the like love to do is to make people who are clearly not victims think that they are. Europe has been a particularly bloody corner of the globe forever, as has the British Isles. Recently (the last 50 years in Europe, the last 10-20 in Ireland and the UK) we have had an unusually trouble free period.

The Brexit movement want to make people who have had good lives (not lived in poverty, not fought in war or had their offspring go to war) feel in some way like they have been denied something by an "other" - the EU.

It might have been a democratic vote but much of the language surrounding it was very dubious indeed, and it is language of the type that has taken the human race to some very dark places indeed in the past.

:agree:

If Trump, Farage, Britain First or Yaxley-Lennon have managed to convince you that you are a victim, then you most definitely are. Just not in the way you think.

[Northernhibee]

:agree:

If Trump, Farage, Britain First or Yaxley-Lennon have managed to convince you that you are a victim, then you most definitely are. Just not in the way you think.

They're faith healers. They pick on someone because they're hurting - whether it's poverty, unemployment etc. and convice you that by sending them money they can cure you of all your ills. It's a time served scam.

[Hibrandenburg]

They're faith healers. They pick on someone because they're hurting - whether it's poverty, unemployment etc. and convice you that by sending them money they can cure you of all your ills. It's a time served scam.

:agree:

[Colr]

Have his attackers been arrested yet?

[G B Young]

Have his attackers been arrested yet?

'A Metropolitan Police spokesman confirmed it had spoken to witnesses and would now review CCTV footage from the scene.'

Not heard of any arrests. Bit surprising considering the number of witnesses and CCTV cameras apparently in the vicinity.

[Kato]

'A Metropolitan Police spokesman confirmed it had spoken to witnesses and would now review CCTV footage from the scene.'

Not heard of any arrests. Bit surprising considering the number of witnesses and CCTV cameras apparently in the vicinity.

Do the police always make an arrest if there are witnesses and cctv?

[G B Young]

Do the police always make an arrest if there are witnesses and cctv?

Arrests made now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49515313

[Colr]

Arrests made now:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49515313

Good! It’ll be interesting to find out what species of ******** they belong to.

[sadtom]

The 'ignore them' or 'laugh at them' argument is the epitome of middle class, white priviledge.
If you ignore them it allows them to organise, grow in number, become enboldened. If they can 'swagger' about major town centres they can appeal to the usual easlily led thick knuckle scrapers who are their natural constituancy. Part of their appeal is to look the 'hardest gang in town'. If they are getting leathered and chased everywhere that appeal crumbles.
Remember, as they increase in number and confidence its not those white folks in nice house that see the effect. Its the 'obvious' targets who bare the brunt. Those of different colour, faith, language. Then those of different sexual orientation (or even gender) then its on to the obvious political opponents. Obvious 'lefties', striking workers or campaigners.
It starts with grafitti/verbal abuse, to threats and broken windows, to physical assault and murder...and always against the minority groups first. They dont get the chance to 'ignore' them.
They need taken on ideologically and physically. They might not come for you until its too late to stop them, as a wise pastor once said.
Make fascists afraid again!
The only good one is a dead one.

[Hibrandenburg]

The 'ignore them' or 'laugh at them' argument is the epitome of middle class, white priviledge.
If you ignore them it allows them to organise, grow in number, become enboldened. If they can 'swagger' about major town centres they can appeal to the usual easlily led thick knuckle scrapers who are their natural constituancy. Part of their appeal is to look the 'hardest gang in town'. If they are getting leathered and chased everywhere that appeal crumbles.
Remember, as they increase in number and confidence its not those white folks in nice house that see the effect. Its the 'obvious' targets who bare the brunt. Those of different colour, faith, language. Then those of different sexual orientation (or even gender) then its on to the obvious political opponents. Obvious 'lefties', striking workers or campaigners.
It starts with grafitti/verbal abuse, to threats and broken windows, to physical assault and murder...and always against the minority groups first. They dont get the chance to 'ignore' them.
They need taken on ideologically and physically. They might not come for you until its too late to stop them, as a wise pastor once said.
Make fascists afraid again!
The only good one is a dead one.

100% :agree:

[Cataplana]

The 'ignore them' or 'laugh at them' argument is the epitome of middle class, white priviledge.
If you ignore them it allows them to organise, grow in number, become enboldened. If they can 'swagger' about major town centres they can appeal to the usual easlily led thick knuckle scrapers who are their natural constituancy. Part of their appeal is to look the 'hardest gang in town'. If they are getting leathered and chased everywhere that appeal crumbles.
Remember, as they increase in number and confidence its not those white folks in nice house that see the effect. Its the 'obvious' targets who bare the brunt. Those of different colour, faith, language. Then those of different sexual orientation (or even gender) then its on to the obvious political opponents. Obvious 'lefties', striking workers or campaigners.
It starts with grafitti/verbal abuse, to threats and broken windows, to physical assault and murder...and always against the minority groups first. They dont get the chance to 'ignore' them.
They need taken on ideologically and physically. They might not come for you until its too late to stop them, as a wise pastor once said.
Make fascists afraid again!
The only good one is a dead one.

Look at it another way, the fascists have the upper hand when it comes to fighting.

More sophisticated weaponry is needed.

[makaveli1875]

I thought the Heckingbottom threads on the main board were grim but the Holy Ground has gone absolutely Tonto these last couple of days.

[CloudSquall]

So we're now just openly advocating beating people up and proclaiming people are better off dead if they have different beliefs that we don't agree with?

Jesus wept..

[cabbageandribs1875]

i find the far left as dislikeable(AND violent) as the far right

[Mon Dieu4]

i find the far left as dislikeable(AND violent) as the far right

I would agree with that, while I have no qualms about bona fide genuine Nazis or supremacists taking a hiding I find that these words are banded about so frequently these days that it could be someone you just don't agree with on a very basic level

[Hibrandenburg]

So we're now just openly advocating beating people up and proclaiming people are better off dead if they have different beliefs that we don't agree with?

Jesus wept..

Yep, you reap what you sow.

[CloudSquall]

I would agree with that, while I have no qualms about bona fide genuine Nazis or supremacists taking a hiding I find that these words are banded about so frequently these days that it could be someone you just don't agree with on a very basic level

This for me is the danger, especially in the US we're seeing anyone with slightly centre right views called a Nazi or white supremacist, we're throwing these words about so much that they almost don't mean anything anymore.

I think it's rather ironic that the far left is calling everyone and their dog a fascist but they are the only ones actively looking to shut down the communication of anyone that doesn't agree with them, exactly what fascism is.

Tim Pool, a journalist active on YouTube, has some good output on how crazy the far left are getting (he's centre left himself).

To bring it back to the thread seeing the violence of Antifa in the US I'd be wary of advocating violence when anyone marginally to the right is getting labelled a Nazi these days.

[Mantis Toboggan]

This for me is the danger, especially in the US we're seeing anyone with slightly centre right views called a Nazi or white supremacist, we're throwing these words about so much that they almost don't mean anything anymore.

I think it's rather ironic that the far left is calling everyone and their dog a fascist but they are the only ones actively looking to shut down the communication of anyone that doesn't agree with them, exactly what fascism is.

Tim Pool, a journalist active on YouTube, has some good output on how crazy the far left are getting (he's centre left himself).

To bring it back to the thread seeing the violence of Antifa in the US I'd be wary of advocating violence when anyone marginally to the right is getting labelled a Nazi these days.

I think the people who are being called white supremacists in the USA are generally white supremacists e.g. Proud Boys.

[Cataplana]

i find the far left as dislikeable(AND violent) as the far right

What pisses me off is the Combat Rock sloganism that is supposed to encourage resistance to the fascists. It has probably done as much to alienate ordinary people from the cause, and pushed them towards the more reactionary beliefs of the right.

Working class heroes these days tend to identify with old fashioned values than any thoughts of a better future. (Off at a tangent here) it is most ironic that the whole mod scene has been hijacked by this yearning for the past, when mods were revolutionaries, rejecting traditional working class values in the 60s.

[Peevemor]

Starting at about 2 minutes in, there's an excellent statement here from US Attorney Justin Herdman. What he says should also apply to the UK.

https://youtu.be/56M8xaiJFxo

[Bristolhibby]

So we're now just openly advocating beating people up and proclaiming people are better off dead if they have different beliefs that we don't agree with?

Jesus wept..

If only that happened to the Brown Shirts in Weimar Germany we could have saved the world a host of deaths.

Fascism can’t be reasoned with, it has to be broken.

J

[hibsbollah]

The end of the process today. 2 years and 8 months sentence.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/24/chelsea-fan-jailed-for-attack-on-guardian-journalist-owen-jones (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/24/chelsea-fan-jailed-for-attack-on-guardian-journalist-owen-jones)

[Bristolhibby]

The end of the process today. 2 years and 8 months sentence.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/24/chelsea-fan-jailed-for-attack-on-guardian-journalist-owen-jones (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/24/chelsea-fan-jailed-for-attack-on-guardian-journalist-owen-jones)

Good riddance. Sounds like an utter can’t.

J

[wpj]

Not sure why his supporting Chelsea is relevant but yea sounds like he's better off inside

[Pretty Boy]

Not sure why his supporting Chelsea is relevant but yea sounds like he's better off inside

I thought that at first as well, and I'm still not sure why it merits mentioning in the headline and opening line, but the rest of the story does give a fair bit of context.

[Keith_M]

I thought that at first as well, and I'm still not sure why it merits mentioning in the headline and opening line, but the rest of the story does give a fair bit of context.


Anybody that supports Chelsea is a fascist?


:dunno:

[Ozyhibby]

Not sure why his supporting Chelsea is relevant but yea sounds like he's better off inside

It sounds like, from the article, that being a Chelsea thug is all that is notable about the guy at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Hibbyradge]

Not sure why his supporting Chelsea is relevant but yea sounds like he's better off inside

I guess it's similar to when the press report that the offender was black or Asian.

[matty_f]

I thought that at first as well, and I'm still not sure why it merits mentioning in the headline and opening line, but the rest of the story does give a fair bit of context.

It’s relevant because the police identified him from cctv footage as he was known to them from being involved with Chelsea casuals. :agree:

[Keith_M]

It’s relevant because the police identified him from cctv footage as he was known to them from being involved with Chelsea casuals. :agree:


Surely 'West of London Supporter' would have been the correct term...

[matty_f]

Surely 'West of London Supporter' would have been the correct term...

:faf: aye!!

[Jones28]

Anybody that supports Chelsea is a fascist?


:dunno:

You could flip it and say that you haven’t heard of a fascist who doesn’t support Chelsea?

It’s like Brexit. Not all supporters are racists but I’ve never met a racist who wasn’t a Brexit supporter.