Ron Gordon

[jacomo]

I disagree, the others will spend on their youth set up accordingly, and we will fall in line with the spending as usual.

Just another box ticking exercise in my opinion.


It’s all about finding the right balance isn’t it? We haven’t always got that right as a club, but we now have an infrastructure that is the envy of many and enabled us to put a good team together.

It’s also enabled us to spend more money this summer - although the jury is out on how well we have spent it.

[blackpoolhibs]

It’s all about finding the right balance isn’t it? We haven’t always got that right as a club, but we now have an infrastructure that is the envy of many and enabled us to put a good team together.

It’s also enabled us to spend more money this summer - although the jury is out on how well we have spent it.

Yip it is a balancing act, but we cant suddenly start paying our youth players daft money in the hope they will make it to the first team.

And the ones like those cherry picked by the old firm will continue to go there for this reason if they are wanted badly enough.

[jeffers]

Even if we had the best facilities in the country how many players do we realistically expect to bring into the first team and by that I mean top players who have decent sell on value ? Porteous aside I'm struggling to think of any others we've brought in since East Mains was built ? How is it going to improve dramatically by spending £3-4M on an indoor facility ? Lets not forget the golden generation came through without a state of the art training complex.

As a country we produce less top players than we did before, look at the top English sides to see how few Scots are in them, whereas in the 70s and 80s there were dozens. Are Hibs going to buck that trend because we have invested in our infrastructure.

I'm with blackpoolhibs on this one, I've been there and done it with infrastructure over the team on the park.

[CapitalGreen]

Lets not forget the golden generation came through without a state of the art training complex.


I’ve seen this point made a lot but it fails to recognise that all of our competitors didn’t have state of the art training complexes at the time either. Do you think we would have attracted and retained the golden generation while training on dogs!te covered council pitches if Hearts, Celtic etc had their current academies?

Also, an academy doesn’t need to be producing players with big sell on potential to be a success, it only needs to produce players good enough for the first team squad. Every player produced for the first team squad saves the club on transfer and signing on fees to fill that spot, not to mention a youth products wages will generally be lower than those of a player brought into the club.

Take Stevenson for example, he has been in the squad for 14 years. Given signings maybe have an average 2-3 years timespan at the club, without Lewis we would have probably signed another 5-7 players over that period. Add up the cumulative amount of all the signing on fees we avoided (plus any potential transfer fees) and it will be a significant saving.

[jeffers]

I’ve seen this point made a lot but it fails to recognise that all of our competitors didn’t have state of the art training complexes at the time either. Do you think we would have attracted and retained the golden generation while training on dogs!te covered council pitches if Hearts, Celtic etc had their current academies?

Also, an academy doesn’t need to be producing players with big sell on potential to be a success, it only needs to produce players good enough for the first team squad. Every player produced for the first team squad saves the club on transfer and signing on fees to fill that spot, not to mention a youth products wages will generally be lower than those of a player brought into the club.

Take Stevenson for example, he has been in the squad for 14 years. Given signings maybe have an average 2-3 years timespan at the club, without Lewis we would have probably signed another 5-7 players over that period. Add up the cumulative amount of all the signing on fees we avoided (plus any potential transfer fees) and it will be a significant saving.

All fair points but I'd hope we'd see more than squad fillers from state of the art training facilities, ultimately selling on players we have developed and promising youngsters we have signed is how we will make money, which in turn allows us to reinvest in the playing squad, hopefully improving its overall standard.

The fact is we already have state of the art training facilities, how much better are players going to get because we have added a £3-4M indoor facility ?

[CapitalGreen]

All fair points but I'd hope we'd see more than squad fillers from state of the art training facilities, ultimately selling on players we have developed and promising youngsters we have signed is how we will make money, which in turn allows us to reinvest in the playing squad, hopefully improving its overall standard.

The fact is we already have state of the art training facilities, how much better are players going to get because we have added a £3-4M indoor facility ?

I’ve no idea how much better it will make players (if it will at all) and personally I think it is a nonsense that it is a requirement. However the level of your academy accreditation determines the amount of compensation you receive if an academy players joins another club. At present, we are on the same level as Hearts, Celtic and Rangers (Elite level) and therefore we very rarely see players being poached by them. Signing a player from another teams academy is a big gamble as you have no idea how their development will progress as they grow older. The compensation levels for Elite academy players typically prevents poaching as it makes taking a gamble on the potential of another Elite teams academy player not worthwhile.

However, for an Elite academy to take a player from a non-Elite academy the compensation due is much less. If we were to lose our Elite academy status, taking a gamble on poaching our youth players would suddenly become worthwhile to the like of Hearts, Rangers and Celtic because the compensation due to us would be a pittance. Without our Elite status, we would probably be relying on blind loyalty or geography to keep players like Porteous within our academy through to the first team.

On the flip side to this, I know for a fact Hibs are actively scouting the academies below Elite level to improve the standard of player within our academy as we can poach these player for small compensation fees. This has seen us bring in Paddy Martin and Jack Hodge (St J) and the young winger from Queens Park in recent times.

[jeffers]

I’ve no idea how much better it will make players (if it will at all) and personally I think it is a nonsense that it is a requirement. However the level of your academy accreditation determines the amount of compensation you receive if an academy players joins another club. At present, we are on the same level as Hearts, Celtic and Rangers (Elite level) and therefore we very rarely see players being poached by them. Signing a player from another teams academy is a big gamble as you have no idea how their development will progress as they grow older. The compensation levels for Elite academy players typically prevents poaching as it makes taking a gamble on the potential of another Elite teams academy player not worthwhile.

However, for an Elite academy to take a player from a non-Elite academy the compensation due is much less. If we were to lose our Elite academy status, taking a gamble on poaching our youth players would suddenly become worthwhile to the like of Hearts, Rangers and Celtic because the compensation due to us would be a pittance. Without our Elite status, we would probably be relying on blind loyalty or geography to keep players like Porteous within our academy through to the first team.

On the flip side to this, I know for a fact Hibs are actively scouting the academies below Elite level to improve the standard of player within our academy as we can poach these player for small compensation fees. This has seen us bring in Paddy Martin and Jack Hodge (St J) and the young winger from Queens Park in recent times.

Cheers for that I had heard bits of it before but never as much detail as you have provided. From your post maintaining Elite status sounds worthwhile, but does it require a £3-4M indoor pitch or would the figure I originally saw quoted of £1M not suffice ? It's annoying to think Hearts can maintain their status simply by renting Oriam whereas we need to spend (potentially) millions for us to do so.

The more I think about it it's actually a pretty ****ty state of affairs to think the top sides, Aberdeen excluded, can plunder the academies of the other clubs simply because (and I'm assuming down to cost) they cannot attain Elite status.

[greenlex]

Anyone who has been to EM on a wet and windy day (and let’s face it we have a few) will know a full size indoor pitch is essential and will benefit greatly the first team even more than it will benefit elite status or project brave. It’s a must imo.

[Brightside]

When does the team become the focal point, the main reason we support the club?

Just after we invest in the womens team. :wink:

[sean04]

I'm all for the youth system and developing our own then selling for profit. It's a good business model. My concern is that we don't produce enough quality. Are we going to try cherry pick the best players at boys club and youth level whilst competing with some big English clubs? Don't the big clubs school the lads aswell?

[The 90+2]

I'm all for the youth system and developing our own then selling for profit. It's a good business model. My concern is that we don't produce enough quality. Are we going to try cherry pick the best players at boys club and youth level whilst competing with some big English clubs? Don't the big clubs school the lads aswell?


Scotland as a whole don’t produce enough quality players, now all of a sudden everyone is investing in this to attract the best Scottish youngsters? Is the indoor pitch really going to increase the standard of Scottish youngsters quality up by a notch or two? And if it does will we be able to stop them moving west anyway?

Ten years ago we got told to be patient that the training ground was going to be one of the best in the country and the stadium completed and once patient all the other clubs would have to eventually catch up and the training ground would attract the best young players in the country. Since then we’ve been relegated and must have brought through on one hand the amount of young players to even make the grade in the Scottish Ore isrship never mind sell on. After the feel good factor of the cup and finishing fourth and record season ticket sales it was a massive opportunity for the club to push on. It just seems a little back to the future at the moment, missing out on players here and there and going backwards on the pitch whilst trying to convince ourself it’s patience required when the money is being spent off the pitch again.

[sean04]

Scotland as a whole don’t produce enough quality players, now all of a sudden everyone is investing in this to attract the best Scottish youngsters? Is the indoor pitch really going to increase the standard of Scottish youngsters quality up by a notch or two? And if it does will we be able to stop them moving west anyway?

Ten years ago we got told to be patient that the training ground was going to be one of the best in the country and the stadium completed and once patient all the other clubs would have to eventually catch up and the training ground would attract the best young players in the country. Since then we’ve been relegated and must have brought through on one hand the amount of young players to even make the grade in the Scottish Ore isrship never mind sell on. After the feel good factor of the cup and finishing fourth and record season ticket sales it was a massive opportunity for the club to push on. It just seems a little back to the future at the moment, missing out on players here and there and going backwards on the pitch whilst trying to convince ourself it’s patience required when the money is being spent off the pitch again.


It seems like 1 thing after another. It's stadium, training ground, youth academy etc. There's even supporters wanting the club to fill the corners in at Easter road. Surely increasing the wage cap will would more beneficial to attract better players? Better team, more bums on seats, European revenue, cup runs etc

[Hibernian Verse]

I'm all for the youth system and developing our own then selling for profit. It's a good business model. My concern is that we don't produce enough quality. Are we going to try cherry pick the best players at boys club and youth level whilst competing with some big English clubs? Don't the big clubs school the lads aswell?

Can you imagine the outrage amongst the support if we started private schooling the top youth academy prospects and they were attending the Edinburgh ones?

Not sure what the French clubs do but it's probably along those lines.

[Brightside]

Can you imagine the outrage amongst the support if we started private schooling the top youth academy prospects and they were attending the Edinburgh ones?

Not sure what the French clubs do but it's probably along those lines.

Celtic school them.

[Forza Fred]

Can you imagine the outrage amongst the support if we started private schooling the top youth academy prospects and they were attending the Edinburgh ones?

Not sure what the French clubs do but it's probably along those lines.

In Oz there is a secondary school in Western Sydney called Westfields Sports High which is government funded, not private and is ‘partly selective’ in who can attend.

If you live close to it yes, but mainly it is for pupils who have been identified as having potential in various sports, and the curriculum they follow gives them tutelage in their chosen sport....unlike when I went to Leith Academy and we got a couple of hours at Hawkhill regardless of ability.

It has a couple of current Australian fitba internationalists, both men and women in its list of ex pupils....so it can be done...without it being ‘privately funded’.

Football graduates include Matt Ryan, who plays in goals in the EPL at Brighton, and another is Aaron Mooy who recently joined Brighton on loan from Huddersfield.

They can even boast a European Championship winner in Harry Kewell, who played with both Leeds and Liverpool.

So it can be done, all it takes is government commitment.

[J-C]

Celtic school them.

Yep, the guy I drive for his laddie goes to their school, very hot prospect for his age, both massive Hibbies but was picked up by Celtic 2-3years ago.

[The 90+2]

Yep, the guy I drive for his laddie goes to their school, very hot prospect for his age, both massive Hibbies but was picked up by Celtic 2-3years ago.

Would they have went to Hibs had our indoor pitch been built?

[MikeyS]

Yep, the guy I drive for his laddie goes to their school, very hot prospect for his age, both massive Hibbies but was picked up by Celtic 2-3years ago.

I think Hearts do similar by sending kids to Balerno High.

[J-C]

Would they have went to Hibs had our indoor pitch been built?

Eh? What has that got to do with it, Celtic get young lads from all over Scotland, they offer an education along with their training, we're talking about 13 year old kids here.

[The 90+2]

Eh? What has that got to do with it, Celtic get young lads from all over Scotland, they offer an education along with their training, we're talking about 13 year old kids here.

Because apparently building the thing will get us the best youngsters. Celtic Rangers and Hearts offer these educational facilities so we are still far behind indoor pitch or otherwise.

[Anthony Soprano]

Is he not due back in Scotland soon? In the next week or so? More meetings planned at the hibs club and with HSL I’m sure I read.

I get that folk are raging about today but Gordon has done absolutely nothing wrong so far and he’s getting it tight 😂

It’s not his fault Hecky and the football department ****ed it up today.


Careful mate, you're in danger of posting something sensible, not common around here

[Brightside]

I think Hearts do similar by sending kids to Balerno High.

Balerno thing isnt really the same. Although why Hibs haven't created a Hibs Performance School at Portobello is beyond me.

[blackpoolhibs]

Just after we invest in the womens team. :wink:


:greengrin
Wouldnt surprise me, maybe build them their own enclosed pitch and changing facilities, along with its own helipad.

And i'm only half joking. :rolleyes:

[Brightside]

:greengrin
Wouldnt surprise me, maybe build them their own enclosed pitch and changing facilities, along with its own helipad.

And i'm only half joking. :rolleyes:

You are only half wrong. :wink:

[Since90+2]

Balerno thing isnt really the same. Although why Hibs haven't created a Hibs Performance School at Portobello is beyond me.

What is the difference between what Celtic do and what Hearts have at Balerno? Is Celtics a purpose built school just for their youths?

[The 90+2]

What is the difference between what Celtic do and what Hearys have at Balerno? Is Celtics a purpose built school just for their youths?

I thought Celtic had a partnership with St Ninians in Glasgow the same as Hearts have with Balerno and Rangers have with another School in Glasgow. It might be they’ve set up their own performance purpose built school since then?

[sean04]

I think nowadays the education part is important to clubs. Least if lads are getting released at 16 they have an education and something to fall back on. Think in there past guys put all there eggs in the football basket and had nothing to turn if it didn't work out

[blackpoolhibs]

I thought Celtic had a partnership with St Ninians in Glasgow the same as Hearts have with Balerno and Rangers have with another School in Glasgow. It might be they’ve set up their own performance purpose built school since then?

:agree:
This one.https://holyrood-sec.glasgow.sch.uk/

[The 90+2]

:agree:
This one.https://holyrood-sec.glasgow.sch.uk/

:greengrin goes along with their new #hunforall&allforhun motto I suppose.

http://www.boclair.e-dunbarton.sch.uk/

[The 90+2]

I think nowadays the education part is important to clubs. Least if lads are getting released at 16 they have an education and something to fall back on. Think in there past guys put all there eggs in the football basket and had nothing to turn if it didn't work out

I always thought it might have been a good idea to get the players in to Jewel and Esk back in the day the players had dorms down there.

[sean04]

I always thought it might have been a good idea to get the players in to Jewel and Esk back in the day the players had dorms down there.

I remember seeing the lads that were there. Sure the 1st team trained there aswell

[The 90+2]

I remember seeing the lads that were there. Sure the 1st team trained there aswell

Yeah they did along with other places. I meant more in terms of evening classes on other things just in case they didn’t make it at soccer ball.

[Brightside]

I thought Celtic had a partnership with St Ninians in Glasgow the same as Hearts have with Balerno and Rangers have with another School in Glasgow. It might be they’ve set up their own performance purpose built school since then?

Celtic have a full on performance school. Similar to what the SFA have at the schools they are involved in. (Just that Celtic have better coaches) Hearts just provide some additional coaching at Balerno. Despite claiming they were making it a performance school when they launched in in 2017.

[Fanforlife]

Celtic have a full on performance school. Similar to what the SFA have at the schools they are involved in. (Just that Celtic have better coaches) Hearts just provide some additional coaching at Balerno. Despite claiming they were making it a performance school when they launched in in 2017.my 13 old grandson is at the Broughton performance school along with a few other Hibs Academy Boys,they get a taxi to East Mains 3 nights per week for training,seems to work ok ,however as grandson actually lives in Tranent it seems a lot of extra traveling to me.He enjoys it all so what do I know?😁

[#2 Double Tap]

my 13 old grandson is at the Broughton performance school along with a few other Hibs Academy Boys,they get a taxi to East Mains 3 nights per week for training,seems to work ok ,however as grandson actually lives in Tranent it seems a lot of extra traveling to me.He enjoys it all so what do I know?😁

if you was a good grandparent, you would drive him back and forth everywhere he needs to go, i mean what are grandparents for after all, haha.

[Keith_M]

There's been a lot of talk about how investing in a Training Centre has allowed us to develop players through our youth setup, instead of having to buy players from other clubs.

I'd really be interested to know if the very large* investment made has actually fulfilled its purpose, so....


Since East Mains was officially opened (2008?), how many first team regulars have we actually brought through from our youth teams?

Was it more than in the previous decade, before we had our own facility?




* For a club the size of Hibs

[J-C]

http://www.celticfc.net/news/2039?item=2039

This is where they send the lads to be educated.

[jacomo]

There's been a lot of talk about how investing in a Training Centre has allowed us to develop players through our youth setup, instead of having to buy players from other clubs.

I'd really be interested to know if the very large* investment made has actually fulfilled its purpose, so....


Since East Mains was officially opened (2008?), how many first team regulars have we actually brought through from our youth teams?

Was it more than in the previous decade, before we had our own facility?




* For a club the size of Hibs


The obvious answer is no. The golden generation came through before we had East Mains.

But it’s also about attracting and retaining talent. I am sure we do that better than we did before.

[Fanforlife]

if you was a good grandparent, you would drive him back and forth everywhere he needs to go, i mean what are grandparents for after all, haha.got his ma&da for that m8😁

[lucky]

The obvious answer is no. The golden generation came through before we had East Mains.

But it’s also about attracting and retaining talent. I am sure we do that better than we did before.

East Mains is our training centre, it was not set up as an academy but it maybe being developed into one.

[scoopyboy]

heard a whisper that RG lodged some papers or similar with companies house this week.

Any of our financial gurus shed any light on the matter?

[660]

heard a whisper that RG lodged some papers or similar with companies house this week.

Any of our financial gurus shed any light on the matter?

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC005323/filing-history

[Jones28]

The obvious answer is no. The golden generation came through before we had East Mains.

But it’s also about attracting and retaining talent. I am sure we do that better than we did before.

The thing about the golden generation is that it was literally a once in a generation thing - it’s so rare to see that level of player come through on their own, let alone 5/6/7 at a time.

I think know we are seeing the fruits of our labours, we’ve seen Murray, Shaw, Porteous, Mackie, Cummings and Harris break through for us in more recent years.

I know most of them haven’t really hit the heights (yet), but how many do?

[scoopyboy]

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/SC005323/filing-history

Thanks for that 660.

In simple terms what does it mean?

[scoopyboy]

The thing about the golden generation is that it was literally a once in a generation thing - it’s so rare to see that level of player come through on their own, let alone 5/6/7 at a time.

I think know we are seeing the fruits of our labours, we’ve seen Murray, Shaw, Porteous, Mackie, Cummings and Harris break through for us in more recent years.

I know most of them haven’t really hit the heights (yet), but how many do?

Not so sure we can take the credit for Cummings and Mackie as they were developed elsewhere.

[ancient hibee]

Thanks for that 660.

In simple terms what does it mean?

It seems to complete the security over the stadium area as cover for any loans from the owning company.

[The 90+2]

It seems to complete the security over the stadium area as cover for any loans from the owning company.

What’s the need for the security over all the assets for any “loans” the owner gives the club? It’s not as if he is answering to anyone in the owning company he set up to buy the shares in the first place?

[Colr]

What’s the need for the security over all the assets for any “loans” the owner gives the club? It’s not as if he is answering to anyone in the owning company he set up to buy the shares in the first place?

Its what rich folk do with football clubs. Lend it money and take the steady interest payments that loyal fans stump up in tickets and mechandising.

Reliable returns like that are hard to find.

It’s not good.

[green day]

Its what rich folk do with football clubs. Lend it money and take the steady interest payments that loyal fans stump up in tickets and mechandising.

Reliable returns like that are hard to find.

It’s not good.

Except that isn't what has happened.

This security over assets stuff is not new detail, it was discussed and clarified way back on the buy out thread.

[ancient hibee]

Its what rich folk do with football clubs. Lend it money and take the steady interest payments that loyal fans stump up in tickets and mechandising.

Reliable returns like that are hard to find.

It’s not good.

Except as there is no loan there will be no interest payments so what you say is complete rubbish.

[Glory Lurker]

This security over assets stuff is not new detail, it was discussed and clarified way back on the buy out thread.

Where? Could you link, please? I don't understand the detail of this stuff, but I don't remember there being announcements that we'd give securities?

[FilipinoHibs]

Where? Could you link, please? I don't understand the detail of this stuff, but I don't remember there being announcements that we'd give securities?

I think it is legal security for a future loan. Nothing to do with Ron's investment in the shares. Getting your ducks in a row for a future potential loan for the indoor training centre or academy.

[CapitalGreen]

Where? Could you link, please? I don't understand the detail of this stuff, but I don't remember there being announcements that we'd give securities?

https://www.hibs.net/search.php

[Glory Lurker]

https://www.hibs.net/search.php

Thanks, but I'll wait for a link to where it was explained.

[CapitalGreen]

Thanks, but I'll wait for a link to where it was explained.

So you expect someone else to use the search function to find the thread being referred to because you’re too lazy. Got ya 👍

[Glory Lurker]

So you expect someone else to use the search function to find the thread being referred to because you’re too lazy. Got ya 👍

No. I don't know how to use it, and suspect I'd end up having to trawl through loads of irrelevant stuff. I don't remember the security situation being explained. I don't think it was. It's not unreasonable to ask the poster who said it was to point me to it.

Happy to eat humble pie, or whatever.

[green day]

No. I don't know how to use it, and suspect I'd end up having to trawl through loads of irrelevant stuff. I don't remember the security situation being explained. I don't think it was. It's not unreasonable to ask the poster who said it was to point me to it.

Happy to eat humble pie, or whatever.

It was explained fully at the time (even if you don't think it was), sorry but I don't have the time to look through threads for something I know is there.

[Glory Lurker]

It was explained fully at the time (even if you don't think it was), sorry but I don't have the time to look through threads for something I know is there.

Ok, fair enough. Thanks.