New Sick Kids hospital scandal

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49225869

Mind-boggling incompetence at the heart of this surely. Can see the Scottish Health Secretary ultimately having to resign.

[Hibbyradge]

Jeezo. That's a disgrace.

When did the building of the hospital begin and don't they have any competent professionals overlooking the project?

How is this even possible?

I have nowt but questions atm.

[James310]

I am amazed I never started this thread.

£1.4M a month for a hospital we cannot even use.

It was already something like 8 years late as well.

[lapsedhibee]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49225869

Mind-boggling incompetence at the heart of this surely. Can see the Scottish Health Secretary ultimately having to resign.

"I'm not an engineer"

[makaveli1875]

These SNP buffoons can't even manage to build a hospital but folk think they can build a nation that will challenge Irelands financial might.
Time tae think again about letting these clowns ruin the place

[Ozyhibby]

An over run construction project, oh my! Clear evidence Scotland should never be allowed to run its own affairs. [emoji23]


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[CloudSquall]

These SNP buffoons can't even manage to build a hospital but folk think they can build a nation that will challenge Irelands financial might.
Time tae think again about letting these clowns ruin the place

Straight from the 2014 unionist playbook.

You do know there would be elections in an independent Scotland and the SNP could be voted out when the **** hits the fan in cases like the above?

[Pretty Boy]

Staff have been told not to expect to begin transferring until 'at least next summer'. It's a shambles.

[makaveli1875]

An over run construction project, oh my! Clear evidence Scotland should never be allowed to run its own affairs. [emoji23]


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It's a bit more than an over run construction project if the building has to be torn down in order to install the correct drainage. It's a monumental **** up of epic proportions

[G B Young]

Too many corners get cut and the result is that safety is compromised.

Similar to the school closures a couple of years back where the absence of a clerk of works during construction was cited as a significant failing.

Very sad state of affairs, especially for a project like this. Anyone whose children have used the Sick Kids will know what an invaluable resource it is and for their dedicated staff to now face what looks like, at best, a lengthy delay in accessing the facilities they deserve is a shabby state of affairs to put it mildly.

It sums up how fixated the country has become with constitutional issues that a story like this is only now coming fully to light.

[Glory Lurker]

Too many corners get cut and the result is that safety is compromised.

Similar to the school closures a couple of years back where the absence of a clerk of works during construction was cited as a significant failing.

Very sad state of affairs, especially for a project like this. Anyone whose children have used the Sick Kids will know what an invaluable resource it is and for their dedicated staff to now face what looks like, at best, a lengthy delay in accessing the facilities they deserve is a shabby state of affairs to put it mildly.

It sums up how fixated the country has become with constitutional issues that a story like this is only now coming fully to light.

Last para - are you acquainted with the oversight arrangements such that you can show how and when they have been wanting because of attention being paid to constitutional issues?

[BroxburnHibee]

There should be a full inquiry on this.

[lord bunberry]

These SNP buffoons can't even manage to build a hospital but folk think they can build a nation that will challenge Irelands financial might.
Time tae think again about letting these clowns ruin the place

Oh shut up for a minute will you. This used to be a really good forum until people like you ruined it with your party political nonsense. Why don’t we try and analyse what has gone wrong and how it can be fixed. The blame game can start once it’s open and caring for all our children. I have a child and I’d very much like to know that if she gets sick she will have the best of care available.

[Glory Lurker]

There should be a full inquiry on this.

I agree, and I'm sure there will be.

[G B Young]

Last para - are you acquainted with the oversight arrangements such that you can show how and when they have been wanting because of attention being paid to constitutional issues?

I'm not sure I understand your question?

[G B Young]

There should be a full inquiry on this.

Labour's demand for parliament to be recalled is not unreasonable. It's taxpayers' money which is going down the drain here.

[Ozyhibby]

With HS2 now £30bn over budget before a single bit of track has been laid it’s clear that we need independence so that no construction project ever over run.


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[Glory Lurker]

I'm not sure I understand your question?

You seem to be saying that the problems have arisen, or been tolerated because of attention to constitutional issues. Can you substantiate that?

[makaveli1875]

Oh shut up for a minute will you. This used to be a really good forum until people like you ruined it with your party political nonsense. Why don’t we try and analyse what has gone wrong and how it can be fixed. The blame game can start once it’s open and caring for all our children. I have a child and I’d very much like to know that if she gets sick she will have the best of care available.

This forum was full of party political nonsense before I joined. May a fart be on your beard

[G B Young]

You seem to be saying that the problems have arisen, or been tolerated because of attention to constitutional issues. Can you substantiate that?

Sorry, I maybe phrased that badly. I wasn't implying that (although the Scottish government clearly have serious questions to answer). I was referring more to the way the news agenda has been so dominated by independence/Brexit for what seems forever that the seriousness of a story like this almost seems lost.

[Glory Lurker]

Sorry, I maybe phrased that badly. I wasn't implying that (although the Scottish government clearly have serious questions to answer). I was referring more to the way the news agenda has been so dominated by independence/Brexit for what seems forever that the seriousness of a story like this almost seems lost.

Sorry, got you. It is a shocker that it's got this far and the light should be shone in every corner to get to the bottom of it.

[Hibbyradge]

With HS2 now £30bn over budget before a single bit of track has been laid it’s clear that we need independence so that no construction project ever over run.


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It's not the over run that I'm shocked at.

It's the incompetence of the people running the project which has brought us to the point that the entire hospital is threatened with possible demolition.

Trivialising that doesn't do you any favours.

[Allant1981]

They are hoping to get the dcn open this year, there has been talk that it will be about this time next year that the rest of the site will be open but no one has been told anything for certain yet. There are some staff working on the site just now.

[Ozyhibby]

It's not the over run that I'm shocked at.

It's the incompetence of the people running the project which has brought us to the point that the entire hospital is threatened with possible demolition.

Trivialising that doesn't do you any favours.

Are we at that stage though? A union official who clearly has no expertise? Until we know what’s going on we can’t really blame anyone, can we?


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[weecounty hibby]

If true that the ventilation and now the drainage appear to be not fit for purpose. There are so many people/companies who should never work in major engineering projects again. Total basics of a civil project look to have been calculated, designed and installed wrong. From top to bottom, including those from the govt should be held fully accountable.

[Allant1981]

If true that the ventilation and now the drainage appear to be not fit for purpose. There are so many people/companies who should never work in major engineering projects again. Total basics of a civil project look to have been calculated, designed and installed wrong. From top to bottom, including those from the govt should be held fully accountable.

There are a lot more problems than that

[makaveli1875]

Are we at that stage though? A union official who clearly has no expertise? Until we know what’s going on we can’t really blame anyone, can we?


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A building that cost 150 million of taxpayers money has been built with insufficient ventilation and drainage. To top it off they've already sold the old sick kids. You can't defend that sort of cock up

[steakbake]

These SNP buffoons can't even manage to build a hospital but folk think they can build a nation that will challenge Irelands financial might.
Time tae think again about letting these clowns ruin the place

Aye, they built this with their bare hands so they did.

[Allant1981]

A building that cost 150 million of taxpayers money has been built with insufficient ventilation and drainage. To top it off they've already sold the old sick kids. You can't defend that sort of cock up

Yip and been told that the company who bought it have clauses in place for payments if it's not closed in the next few months

[weecounty hibby]

There are a lot more problems than that
Such as? I genuinely don't know so would be good to hear about it. I would suggest that if there are more issues than those then serious professional misconduct is in play and insurance will be involved at some point

[Allant1981]

Such as? I genuinely don't know so would be good to hear about it. I would suggest that if there are more issues than those then serious professional misconduct is in play and insurance will be involved at some point

I was told by a colleague that there was an issue with the lead in the xray dept, could be all hearsay though as everyone is talking about it. There was an issue with doors as well that had to be taken out, might not seem like a big deal but when they arent anti ligature and they are in the unit that will be dealing with vulnerable kids then its potentially very bad. There are loads of other stories coming out as well, some maybe not as true as other though

[Hibbyradge]

Are we at that stage though? A union official who clearly has no expertise? Until we know what’s going on we can’t really blame anyone, can we?


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I don't know who's at fault, but someone has blundered big time.

[degenerated]

I was told by a colleague that there was an issue with the lead in the xray dept, could be all hearsay though as everyone is talking about it. There was an issue with doors as well that had to be taken out, might not seem like a big deal but when they arent anti ligature and they are in the unit that will be dealing with vulnerable kids then its potentially very bad. There are loads of other stories coming out as well, some maybe not as true as other thoughThe doors wouldn't be a huge issue, it's really just a change to projecting ironmongery, introducing a continuous hinges and at worst changing vision panels - if needs be.
It comes at cost but small beer in comparison to the trying to fix issues in substructure.

If there are significant issues with drainage then I'd be inclined to wait and see what any consultants report finds rather than take at face value what some trade union official reckons might be the case.




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[Allant1981]

The doors wouldn't be a huge issue, it's really just a change to projecting ironmongery, introducing a continuous hinges and at worst changing vision panels - if needs be.
It comes at cost but small beer in comparison to the trying to fix issues in substructure.

If there are significant issues with drainage then I'd be inclined to wait and see what any consultants report finds rather than take at face value what some trade union official reckons might be the case.




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All the doors had to be replaced, these doors are not cheap but yes compared to other issues this is one of the smaller ones. the drainage issue was flagged up a long time ago and is not something new

[lord bunberry]

This forum was full of party political nonsense before I joined. May a fart be on your beard
Yes but rather than focus on the fact that a hospital for children is not opening when it should, you come on here with the predictable reply about independence. I believe in independence, but I don’t have a blinkered political view that the SNP are always right. I look at things on an individual basis. My first thought when I heard about this story was that a possible world leading facility for the children in our area was in trouble and how that was bad for children in Edinburgh. You’re first thought was that it was a chance to have a dig at the SNP and independence. Pathetic.

[RyeSloan]

A building that cost 150 million of taxpayers money has been built with insufficient ventilation and drainage. To top it off they've already sold the old sick kids. You can't defend that sort of cock up

What a shambles! And a shambles that will effect the most vulnerable of all, sick kids. Shameful state of affairs this that seems to have been a slow moving car crash for some time. Fully expecting the relevant involved parties to all point the fo get at each other on this though...

Oh and let’s be clear the cost is not just a £150m it’s £432m over 25 years after maintenance and management fees.

I’m sure someone will be along to explain how the NPD system is not PFI and how all the pontificating of the SNP over PFI is absolutely not double standards when you see those costs but jeez it certainly looks like PFI under a different name.

And as for having to pay £1.5m a month to the consortium that built it when they can’t even use the facility....well that’s proper incompetence there and surely someone needs to be held accountable for that decision!!

[degenerated]

All the doors had to be replaced, these doors are not cheap but yes compared to other issues this is one of the smaller ones. the drainage issue was flagged up a long time ago and is not something newYou don't have to tell me how much doors cost :greengrin I've spent 25 years in procurement in construction and somewhere along the line someone somewhere decided I was good at dealing with doors and I've been stuck with it ever since. It's a complete pain in the erse at times :greengrin

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[Allant1981]

You don't have to tell me how much doors cost :greengrin I've spent 25 years in procurement in construction and somewhere along the line someone somewhere decided I was good at dealing with doors and I've been stuck with it ever since. It's a complete pain in the erse at times :greengrin

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I'm needing new internal doors, mates rates!!!!

[degenerated]

I'm needing new internal doors, mates rates!!!!Never really bought residential type doors much, thornbridge or Rowan timber likely to be good bets pricewise. They all tend to use premdor or vicaima door kits.

Its pre-hung sets for schools, hospitals and commercial use I've mostly dealt with and they're a bit over spec and well over priced for a house.

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[speedy_gonzales]

Never really bought residential type doors much, thornbridge or Rowan timber likely to be good bets pricewise. They all tend to use premdor or vicaima door kits.

Its pre-hung sets for schools, hospitals and commercial use I've mostly dealt with and they're a bit over spec and well over priced for a house.

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There might be some surplus ones going cheap down Little France way *rolls eyes emoji*

[degenerated]

There might be some surplus ones going cheap down Little France way *rolls eyes emoji*I'd just like to point out at this stage, for the avoidance of doubt, that I've never worked for Brookfield Multiplex in any capacity. :greengrin

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[Jack]

While on the face of it it's not good perhaps we should wait until something less sensationalist is made public and the actual facts are known.

On a positive note the issues have been identified before staff and patients have moved in.

It would all to easy to point out where such failings have been ignored and lives and billions lost.

[James310]

While on the face of it it's not good perhaps we should wait until something less sensationalist is made public and the actual facts are known.

On a positive note the issues have been identified before staff and patients have moved in.

It would all to easy to point out where such failings have been ignored and lives and billions lost.

What more facts are you after then? We are paying over a £1M a month for a hospital we cannot use that is already years late, it has had about 2 dates already postponed when the paitents were supposed to have moved in. The old hospital has already been sold to a property developer who is wanting to turn them into student flats. I am guessing there is going to have to be some pay off to them as well as the old hospital might have to be open for years to come.

What other facts are you looking for?

[steakbake]

You don't have to tell me how much doors cost :greengrin I've spent 25 years in procurement in construction and somewhere along the line someone somewhere decided I was good at dealing with doors and I've been stuck with it ever since. It's a complete pain in the erse at times :greengrin

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Must be a good line to be in though, surely? Lots of openings... and you’ll always get closure on anything you do, too?

[Fife-Hibee]

These SNP buffoons can't even manage to build a hospital but folk think they can build a nation that will challenge Irelands financial might.
Time tae think again about letting these clowns ruin the place

Wow really? I never knew Nicola Sturgeon, Ian Blackford, Pete Wishart and co..... were all there with bricks in hand.

Seriously though. I could just as easily say something like "but folk think Scotlands interests are best served under a UK Government that can't even keep listeria out of English hospitals in 2019."

[allmodcons]

What more facts are you after then? We are paying over a £1M a month for a hospital we cannot use that is already years late, it has had about 2 dates already postponed when the paitents were supposed to have moved in. The old hospital has already been sold to a property developer who is wanting to turn them into student flats. I am guessing there is going to have to be some pay off to them as well as the old hospital might have to be open for years to come.

What other facts are you looking for?

Do you have any knowledge of the contractual obligations of IHS Lothian Ltd and its sub contractors?

Do you know what the insurance implications are in a scenario like this?

Have you got any details of the insurance arrangements that are in place on a project of this magnitude?

[heretoday]

They'll have to knock it down.

Or turn it into an "artspace".

[James310]

Do you have any knowledge of the contractual obligations of IHS Lothian Ltd and its sub contractors?

Do you know what the insurance implications are in a scenario like this?

Have you got any details of the insurance arrangements that are in place on a project of this magnitude?

So if at the end of the story it has a line saying, the many years delay, the cost of over £1M a month, the continued missed deadlines and that it might have to be ripped down and started again is covered by insurance you would go 'oh, that's ok then, it's fine'. Is it only the cost that bothers you? Not the catalogue of other errors and mismanagement.

[lapsedhibee]

So if at the end of the story it has a line saying, the many years delay, the cost of over £1M a month, the continued missed deadlines and that it might have to be ripped down and started again is covered by insurance you would go 'oh, that's ok then, it's fine'. Is it only the cost that bothers you? Not the catalogue of other errors and mismanagement.

SNP surreptitiously building hospitals in Liverpool shocker!! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-48554318)

[James310]

SNP surreptitiously building hospitals in Liverpool shocker!! (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-48554318)

What's that got to do with a hospital in Edinburgh?

[lapsedhibee]

What's that got to do with a hospital in Edinburgh?

It's to do with building hospitals. Don't you think that's relevant?

[James310]

It's to do with building hospitals. Don't you think that's relevant?

So they are just as incompetent in Liverpool as they are in Edinburgh? Is that the point?

[lapsedhibee]

So they are just as incompetent in Liverpool as they are in Edinburgh? Is that the point?

The usual suspects trying to make narrow political points out of construction project problems is tiresome.

[James310]

The usual suspects trying to make narrow political points out of construction project problems is tiresome.

So it's just a construction problem? Ok.

[lapsedhibee]

The usual suspects trying to make narrow political points out of construction project problems is tiresome.


So it's just a construction problem? Ok.

No, it's a project problem, as I just said.

[Just Alf]

Do you have any knowledge of the contractual obligations of IHS Lothian Ltd and its sub contractors?

Do you know what the insurance implications are in a scenario like this?

Have you got any details of the insurance arrangements that are in place on a project of this magnitude?Also

When did the project team advise the government? I'm assuming to take the 'blame' at this stage they've tried to hide it while a fix was done?

The government could be culpable in the way the project oversight was structured, we'll only know if they've not followed standard industry guidelines after an enquiry I guess.

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[Moulin Yarns]

Let's compare the mismanagement of the hospital construction with building your own house.

You employ an architect and structural engineer to draw up the plans and get the relevant permissions in place, you get builders to give quotes for construction and appoint one to build and manage the project. You then go about your everyday life expecting the build to go according to plan. You will occasionally visit the site because you are excited by the new house.

As the build nears completion the local building standard officer will check ventilation and drainage as well as other things necessary for the integrity of the building, and finds some problems and condemns the building. Who's fault is it?

The Architect? The builder? the building standard officer? or you, the client?

In the case of the new Sick Kids, the Government and NHS Lothian are the clients and correctly expect those with the relevant expertise to deliver what was specified. The builders, service engineers, and Building Standards officers are those charged with delivering the building, that is where faults lie in this case. As soon as problems are identified they should have been rectified, that this hasn't happened is down to mismanagement of the construction project and the clients should recover all additional costs from the contractors.

[Ozyhibby]

No, it's a project problem, as I just said.

So far I’ve heard about a problem with the ventilation and a possible problem with drainage. Sounds like construction issues to me?


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[lapsedhibee]

So far I’ve heard about a problem with the ventilation and a possible problem with drainage. Sounds like construction issues to me?

The alleged drainage problem might be a bit more than a construction problem, if it's true that it was raised as an issue long ago. But we dunno because we've only had "I'm not an engineer" saying there's "a school of thought" that the whole building might have to be "ripped down" (not clear whether he meant to say "ripped apart" or "knocked down" here). About the only thing we know for sure is that it demonstrates that Scotland should stay in the UK, in the same way that the construction of the Queensferry Crossing demonstrated that Scotland should be independent.

[Smartie]

We need a lot more detail before being able to comment.

This has absolutely nothing to do with the merits of independence, irrespective of the predictable efforts of the usuals suspects attempts to try to link this to that in some sort of way.

It will be very interesting to learn what the specifics of the problems are, and what led to them arising. The fault may be on the construction side but it is naive in the extreme to think that this might not be down to political meddling, underfunding or interference.

The sad fact for a soldier is that "value for the taxpayer" involves spending as little as possible on your personal equipment, equipment that your life (and those of others) might depend upon.

Kids hospitals are emotive, but do we all have a responsibility here? Who here is prepared to pay more to ensure projects are completed on time and on budget? Are our politicians being honest with us with what we can expect to receive for what we are currently paying? How was the construction job secured - was it with a "race to the bottom" tendering process where desperate construction firms outbid each other with lower and lower offers, the "winner" finally securing the deal at a rate way below what is realistically possible to deliver the end result then trying to cut as many corners as possible in order to make ends meet?

None of these situations are unusual or unrealistic, they happen all over the place within the NHS.

FWIW the SNP government has, in my opinion, got a decentish record with the big infrastructure projects, they've been due a shambles and they won't appreciate any of this one bit.

[Hibbyradge]

It's amazing that people are seeking to justify a shambles of a project because it suits them politically to do so.

It's equally pathetic that people are trying to use said shambles to score political points.

[Bostonhibby]

An over run construction project, oh my! Clear evidence Scotland should never be allowed to run its own affairs. [emoji23]


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Should have got the city council to project manage it.

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[ronaldo7]

It's amazing that people are seeking to justify a shambles of a project because it suits them politically to do so.

It's equally pathetic that people are trying to use said shambles to score political points.

Two reviews already under way some time ago. I think I'll let those run their course to see the facts before joining the fray.

[lord bunberry]

I really don’t care who’s fault this is, but I do accept that the government will always take the flak for the problems. All efforts at the moment should be concentrated on fixing the problems and making the hospital safe for the children. If this turns out to be a failure of government the minister involved should be sacked. I also don’t think the union spokesman has helped anyone by making claims on aspects of the project that he knows nothing about.

[allmodcons]

So if at the end of the story it has a line saying, the many years delay, the cost of over £1M a month, the continued missed deadlines and that it might have to be ripped down and started again is covered by insurance you would go 'oh, that's ok then, it's fine'. Is it only the cost that bothers you? Not the catalogue of other errors and mismanagement.

Can you answer at least one of 3 questions I asked of you?

As soon as you're asked a question all you do is deflect. I doubt you've ever provided a straight answer to any question I've asked of you.

You asked "what other facts are you looking for? In response I asked for 3 facts and all you do is deflect.

It's all rather embarrassing. For someone who wants every detail of how an Independent Scotland would look and function you are remarkably short on answers regarding any other topic.

[James310]

Can you answer at least one of 3 questions I asked of you?

As soon as you're asked a question all you do is deflect. I doubt you've ever provided a straight answer to any question I've asked of you.

You asked "what other facts are you looking for? In response I asked for 3 facts and all you do is deflect.

It's all rather embarrassing. For someone who wants every detail of how an Independent Scotland would look and function you are remarkably short on answers regarding any other topic.

Here we go again, so how do you expect me to know the commercial details of the deal? So no I don't know what the insurance arrangements are, but as I say it does not get in the way of it costing over £1M a month being empty, being years late and not fit for purpose. If you think that's it's all ok as it's covered by insurance then that's your view but suggest it is not a view shared by many.

A bit of responsibility is all people are asking for, instead of looking to blame everyone else.

[Fife-Hibee]

A bit of responsibility is all people are asking for, instead of looking to blame everyone else.

Same principle could be applied to all political institutions across the UK.

[Moulin Yarns]

Do you have any knowledge of the contractual obligations of IHS Lothian Ltd and its sub contractors?

Do you know what the insurance implications are in a scenario like this?

Have you got any details of the insurance arrangements that are in place on a project of this magnitude?

I'll give you the answers you were looking for.

No, and it's the SNP fault

No and the SNP should be flogged for it

No and independence won't solve it :wink:

[Cataplana]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49225869

Mind-boggling incompetence at the heart of this surely. Can see the Scottish Health Secretary ultimately having to resign.

Freeman only came in at the start of the year, to clear up the car crash that Robeson was making. It would be a shame to lose her, as she gets her brief, and could do well.

It is pretty pathetic, as a service user, to see health being kicked about as a political football. A lot of focus on what goes wrong, which is actually miniscule in the scheme of things.

The biggest scandal with the sick kids is that the Health Board was actually going to open it. That needs a public enquiry, as it seems very reckless at best.

[allmodcons]

Here we go again, so how do you expect me to know the commercial details of the deal? So no I don't know what the insurance arrangements are, but as I say it does not get in the way of it costing over £1M a month being empty, being years late and not fit for purpose. If you think that's it's all ok as it's covered by insurance then that's your view but suggest it is not a view shared by many.

A bit of responsibility is all people are asking for, instead of looking to blame everyone else.

Your first post said "we" are paying over £1M per month, the inference being that the taxpayer is footing the bill. Of course, you don't know that for sure do you?

Personally speaking, I haven't seen or read enough to apportion blame yet but, as usual, you've jumped in with both feet and blamed the SNP Government.

Thanks for admitting you know nothing about the contractual situation or the insurance arrangements though.

[James310]

Your first post said "we" are paying over £1M per month, the inference being that the taxpayer is footing the bill. Of course, you don't know that for sure do you?

Personally speaking, I haven't seen or read enough to apportion blame yet but, as usual, you've jumped in with both feet and blamed the SNP Government.

Thanks for admitting you know nothing about the contractual situation or the insurance arrangements though.

As the Health Board are paying the £1.4M a month you could reasonably assume that was indeed taxpayers money. I never suggested it was or was not a reason for Independence or not, it was another poster.

I was making a point that some responsibility needs to be taken by the Scot Gov, not all but some. But most on here seem reluctant to do even that despite it being years late, not fit for purpose with 2 opening dates already missed.

Maybe look back at my posts on this thread as I am interested to see where I went full on blame the SNP? I have said they need to take some blame and some responsibility, yet even that seems too much to expect in the world of people where they can do no wrong.

[Mibbes Aye]

My tuppence worth.

NHS Lothian are in a real state and have been for a number of years, going all the way back to misleading reporting on their stats under the previous regime, but more importantly just singularly failing to meet their performance targets on a constant basis.

Government has to take a degree of responsibility as it has oversight and ultimately can take over the running of the Board. From what I have heard about Freeman she has a certain amount of credibility, certainly compared to Robison and people have confidence in her to do a job.

Health policy is thankless due to the constraints on public finances and the challenge of a population demographic that means demand is always going to exceed supply.

Freeman and SG can turn this into a positive by insisting on a robust and transparent inquiry. NHS Lothian are primarily at fault IMO though SG could cop to doing a bit better here -Lothian are far from the only health board in turmoil under this adminsitration’s watch.

[Cataplana]

My tuppence worth.

NHS Lothian are in a real state and have been for a number of years, going all the way back to misleading reporting on their stats under the previous regime, but more importantly just singularly failing to meet their performance targets on a constant basis.

Government has to take a degree of responsibility as it has oversight and ultimately can take over the running of the Board. From what I have heard about Freeman she has a certain amount of credibility, certainly compared to Robison and people have confidence in her to do a job.

Health policy is thankless due to the constraints on public finances and the challenge of a population demographic that means demand is always going to exceed supply.

Freeman and SG can turn this into a positive by insisting on a robust and transparent inquiry. NHS Lothian are primarily at fault IMO though SG could cop to doing a bit better here -Lothian are far from the only health board in turmoil under this adminsitration’s watch.

The thing that we must not lose sight of is that the board was prepared to open the hospital, in the full knowledge that it was not safe for patients. How much contempt do they have for people that they were prepared to put children's lives at risk to save their jobs?

[Mibbes Aye]

The thing that we must not lose sight of is that the board was prepared to open the hospital, in the full knowledge that it was not safe for patients. How much contempt do they have for people that they were prepared to put children's lives at risk to save their jobs?

Cant argue with that.

[Jack]

Well let's think about this for a post or two ... lol

It's a hospital, that because of previous administrations both in Scotland and the UK, has been funded through PFI.

A lawyers dream.

Same issues as we're discussing here where everyone is blaming everyone else.

Major capital projects funded by other methods by the Scottish Government, because it was allowed to, appear to have fared so much better with no legal issues ... yet!

[Fife-Hibee]

I think there will be £1m set aside for a public enquiry that will cost £4m and be 3 years late in telling us no one is to blame.
Once you accept this country is crooked it becomes easier.

Is Edinburgh’s Disgrace still at the top of Calton Hill or has it lost its crown to one of the many pretenders?

It's crooked alright. That's why Scotlands previous First Minister is being brought up to court on sexual assault charges. Because of our crooked legal system designed to protect the SNP.

[GORDONSMITH7]

In my last workplace before retirement as Senior Engineering Manager, I was involved daily on a £200 million extension of the factory several years ago The facilitators were the splendid and ultra professional team from McAlpines, with folk who kept contractors totally concentrated on what their liabilities meant day by day. Two Japanese amigos were the real clinical driving force each and every day who kept McAlpines on their toes. They were splendid and took no daftie *****.

Done on time. Great extension to the plant.

This Sick Kids fiasco is a ******g joke.

BIG G

[I'm_cabbaged]

Why the **** was it signed over at the cost of over a million a month while it lies empty. Who’d be the responsible for doing that? Is it a case that pressure may have been applied to get it open and deal with the problems while in use? I once spoke to a senior engineer who told me that that is what happened with queensferry crossing.

All this building is doing is blocking the view to craigmillar castle from theatre and taking up hundreds of parking spaces!!!!

[Dalianwanda]

Seems like a drop in the ocean compared to this cluster**** https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/children-s-hospital-report-says-final-cost-will-exceed-1-73bn-1.3854289

[beensaidbefore]

Let's compare the mismanagement of the hospital construction with building your own house.

You employ an architect and structural engineer to draw up the plans and get the relevant permissions in place, you get builders to give quotes for construction and appoint one to build and manage the project. You then go about your everyday life expecting the build to go according to plan. You will occasionally visit the site because you are excited by the new house.

As the build nears completion the local building standard officer will check ventilation and drainage as well as other things necessary for the integrity of the building, and finds some problems and condemns the building. Who's fault is it?

The Architect? The builder? the building standard officer? or you, the client?

In the case of the new Sick Kids, the Government and NHS Lothian are the clients and correctly expect those with the relevant expertise to deliver what was specified. The builders, service engineers, and Building Standards officers are those charged with delivering the building, that is where faults lie in this case. As soon as problems are identified they should have been rectified, that this hasn't happened is down to mismanagement of the construction project and the clients should recover all additional costs from the contractors.


This would be my take in things. Surely to god an MSP isn't really to blame here.

[beensaidbefore]

Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, but how does the PFI stuff work? If we are effectively renting it from a company, then surely it's that company who is liable? I may be missing something pretty obvious with how PFI works though! 😂

[RyeSloan]

Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, but how does the PFI stuff work? If we are effectively renting it from a company, then surely it's that company who is liable? I may be missing something pretty obvious with how PFI works though! [emoji23]

Clearly not considering they were paid an EXTRA £11.6m to end a contract dispute very recently...something the Health minister seems to have omitted to tell anyone in the recent statements on the matter.

[G B Young]

Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, but how does the PFI stuff work? If we are effectively renting it from a company, then surely it's that company who is liable? I may be missing something pretty obvious with how PFI works though! 😂

In theory, it's not PFI in this case but the NPD (Non-Profit Distributing) system. The SNP said they'd scrap PFI, but in essence this is just a private finance rebrand.

[G B Young]

In the annual audit report for NHS Lothian (published before the current fiasco kicked off), it's revealed that the hospital is already going to cost £90 million more than projected:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49255341

[Allant1981]

Forgive me if this has been covered elsewhere, but how does the PFI stuff work? If we are effectively renting it from a company, then surely it's that company who is liable? I may be missing something pretty obvious with how PFI works though! 😂

It's technically not pfi now, it is in reality though

[Allant1981]

The head of NHS Lothian used to be a head honcho in Standard Life. What qualified him for the job, other than the school he went to?

Was he?

[Moulin Yarns]

Was he?

Don't know the answer to this but he is a director of Hibernian football club.

[Allant1981]

Don't know the answer to this but he is a director of Hibernian football club.

Yip the chairman is a non exec director of hibs, didnt think he worked for standard life either, the chief exec who I thought he was talking about as far as I know has been employed with the nhs

[Cataplana]

Was he?

Nope, utter bollocks, I confused him with Sandy Crombie. Jim , in fact, has always worked in health care, and started off as a nurse. He isn't even CEO!

I'm sure he will have been one of the dissenting voices on the board, when the decision to open an unsafe hospital.

I've deleted my post, while still accepting that I made an arse of myself in the first place, apologies.

[Allant1981]

Nope, utter bollocks, I confused him with Sandy Crombie. Jim , in fact, has always worked in health care, and started off as a nurse. He isn't even CEO!

I'm sure he will have been one of the dissenting voices on the board, when the decision to open an unsafe hospital.

I've deleted my post.

Were you thinking of jim crombie?, not sure he is on the board any longer

[Cataplana]

Were you thinking of jim crombie?, not sure he is on the board any longer

See above.

[Allant1981]

See above.

😁

[G B Young]

Nope, utter bollocks, I confused him with Sandy Crombie. Jim , in fact, has always worked in health care, and started off as a nurse. He isn't even CEO!

I'm sure he will have been one of the dissenting voices on the board, when the decision to open an unsafe hospital.

I've deleted my post, while still accepting that I made an arse of myself in the first place, apologies.

What's most concerning about th3 latest report is that it shows that the Scottish government and the health board knew about the problems besetting the construction well over a year ago.

This fiasco is going to rumble on for a long time to come.

[Cataplana]

What's most concerning about th3 latest report is that it shows that the Scottish government and the health board knew about the problems besetting the construction well over a year ago.

This fiasco is going to rumble on for a long time to come.

It is bad enough that people from a business background were prepared to open it when it was unfit. What concerns me is how many board members with clinical experience went along with the decision?

However, from a political point of view, it looks like Freeman has been thrown under the bus to protect Robison who appears to be part of the Sturgeon set.

[lord bunberry]

Have we had anything official from the government or the NHS about what’s wrong and how it’s going to be fixed? So far all I’ve read is the stuff from the union guy.

[Cataplana]

Have we had anything official from the government or the NHS about what’s wrong and how it’s going to be fixed? So far all I’ve read is the stuff from the union guy.

Freeman was on the news last night saying she will only comment when the facts are known. She says she will look at her position then.

[Allant1981]

Have we had anything official from the government or the NHS about what’s wrong and how it’s going to be fixed? So far all I’ve read is the stuff from the union guy.

There are 2 independent reviews happening at the moment with some of the work due to be complete by september

[lord bunberry]

Freeman was on the news last night saying she will only comment when the facts are known. She says she will look at her position then.


There are 2 independent reviews happening at the moment with some of the work due to be complete by september
Thanks.

[Moulin Yarns]

What's most concerning about th3 latest report is that it shows that the Scottish government and the health board knew about the problems besetting the construction well over a year ago.

This fiasco is going to rumble on for a long time to come.

Yet the contractor continues to install substandard drainage and ventilation.

[James310]

Yet the contractor continues to install substandard drainage and ventilation.

Over time we have had many years of sub standard performances on the pitch, we may blame the players but it's the manager that gets the sack or resigns as they are ultimately responsible.

[Moulin Yarns]

Over time we have had many years of sub standard performances on the pitch, we may blame the players but it's the manager that gets the sack or resigns as they are ultimately responsible.

So we can expect the contract manager to be sacked. Glad we agree.

[James310]

So we can expect the contract manager to be sacked. Glad we agree.

Just so we are clear, you are saying that the Scottish Government have zero responsibility for the shambles this is, it's all the fault of the contractors? Not even partial blame which is what I have said.

[Moulin Yarns]

Just so we are clear, you are saying that the Scottish Government have zero responsibility for the shambles this is, it's all the fault of the contractors? Not even partial blame which is what I have said.

No, but so we are clear you agree that the person that should be sacked is the contract project manager. Which is what you said.

[James310]

No, but so we are clear you agree that the person that should be sacked is the contract project manager. Which is what you said.

No? Ok, you have changed your tune. Glad we agree.

[Hibbyradge]

Pathetic childish point scoring on here again.

[James310]

Pathetic childish point scoring on here again.

I think it's a reasonable position to take that the Scottish Government have to shoulder some of the blame, I have never suggested they are solely to blame at any point, I don't see how that is childish point scoring.

[Hibbyradge]

I think it's a reasonable position to take that the Scottish Government have to shoulder some of the blame, I have never suggested they are solely to blame at any point, I don't see how that is childish point scoring.

Your post immediately preceding mind was petty and childish.

Plus, as seems to be the way on here recently, you ignored the point being made, presumably because it was inconvenient.

[Moulin Yarns]

Over time we have had many years of sub standard performances on the pitch, we may blame the players but it's the manager that gets the sack or resigns as they are ultimately responsible.



Just so we are clear, you are saying that the Scottish Government have zero responsibility for the shambles this is, it's all the fault of the contractors? Not even partial blame which is what I have said.



No, but so we are clear you agree that the person that should be sacked is the contract project manager. Which is what you said.

To be clear, No, I am not saying that the Scottish Government have zero responsibility for the shambles. But you missed my previous post, repeated below, comparing it to a situation where you employ professionals to build a house for yourself. That the NHS Trust and Government were not in day to day control of the project means the fault for the mismanagement lies with the contractor and project manager.

Where some responsibility shifts to the NHS Trust and Government, IMHO, is how the contract allows the contractor to continue to be paid after major faults are discovered, and the apparent willingness to accept the building when faults were still apparent. This is not a situation where political point scoring and petty comments are helpful. We should all want this to be sorted to allow the full opening of a much needed facility. Don't get me wrong, I loved the old Sick Kids, was well treated after major surgery 50 years ago, but it is past its time and needs replaced.



Let's compare the mismanagement of the hospital construction with building your own house.

You employ an architect and structural engineer to draw up the plans and get the relevant permissions in place, you get builders to give quotes for construction and appoint one to build and manage the project. You then go about your everyday life expecting the build to go according to plan. You will occasionally visit the site because you are excited by the new house.

As the build nears completion the local building standard officer will check ventilation and drainage as well as other things necessary for the integrity of the building, and finds some problems and condemns the building. Who's fault is it?

The Architect? The builder? the building standard officer? or you, the client?

In the case of the new Sick Kids, the Government and NHS Lothian are the clients and correctly expect those with the relevant expertise to deliver what was specified. The builders, service engineers, and Building Standards officers are those charged with delivering the building, that is where faults lie in this case. As soon as problems are identified they should have been rectified, that this hasn't happened is down to mismanagement of the construction project and the clients should recover all additional costs from the contractors.

[G B Young]

To be clear, No, I am not saying that the Scottish Government have zero responsibility for the shambles. But you missed my previous post, repeated below, comparing it to a situation where you employ professionals to build a house for yourself. That the NHS Trust and Government were not in day to day control of the project means the fault for the mismanagement lies with the contractor and project manager.

Where some responsibility shifts to the NHS Trust and Government, IMHO, is how the contract allows the contractor to continue to be paid after major faults are discovered, and the apparent willingness to accept the building when faults were still apparent. This is not a situation where political point scoring and petty comments are helpful. We should all want this to be sorted to allow the full opening of a much needed facility. Don't get me wrong, I loved the old Sick Kids, was well treated after major surgery 50 years ago, but it is past its time and needs replaced.

I think that's all fair comment, although the way I read James' post which used a football manager analogy was that he was comparing the manager to the government/health board and not the contractor.

As I said earlier, there's probably a long way to go before we establish where the greatest blame lies for this sorry mess.

[Moulin Yarns]

I think that's all fair comment, although the way I read James' post which used a football manager analogy was that he was comparing the manager to the government/health board and not the contractor.

As I said earlier, there's probably a long way to go before we establish where the greatest blame lies for this sorry mess.

To continue the football analogy, the government and NHS trust are the equivalent of the Board of directors. How many on here want Petrie to go at every bad result :wink:

[RyeSloan]

I think that's all fair comment, although the way I read James' post which used a football manager analogy was that he was comparing the manager to the government/health board and not the contractor.

As I said earlier, there's probably a long way to go before we establish where the greatest blame lies for this sorry mess.

Ahh apportion of blame...unlikely to say the least!

Did we ever find out who was held accountable for the ‘trams fiasco’?

When it comes to large public overspend on projects like this the process of finding out what went wrong and who’s fault it is seems hugely laborious and slow...if anything is ever actually identified the perpetrators are normally long gone (usually with a wedge of cash in their back pockets) and all we get is a long list of recommendations that occasionally get some lip service before being roundly forgotten about.

[Jack]

To continue the football analogy, the government and NHS trust are the equivalent of the Board of directors. How many on here want Petrie to go at every bad result :wink:

I would go further lol

The Scottish Government has the role of club owner, providing the money and deciding the policy - how the club should be run.

The football/NHS board implement that policy and spend the money.

Of course the owner is going to be interested to see a new stand being built but I can't see it being the owners fault if the bogs don't work. No doubt when he finds out he'll probably be very angry and demand answers from the board.

If they've done all in their power then the board deal with the construction folk to get it sorted.

[WeeRussell]

To continue the football analogy, the government and NHS trust are the equivalent of the Board of directors. How many on here want Petrie to go at every bad result :wink:

There'll be some on here that are blaming Petrie for the hospital :greengrin

[xyz23jc]

There'll be some on here that are blaming Petrie for the hospital :greengrin

Pretty sure our Rod would be renting it out for the festival at an exorbitant rate to someone during this time! :greengrin

[Just Alf]

Pretty sure our Rod would be renting it out for the festival at an exorbitant rate to someone during this time! :greengrinAye... All those rooms/beds on a great bus route into town!!

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[Moulin Yarns]

Aye... All those rooms/beds on a great bus route into town!!

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Not to mention theatre space :greengrin

[Hibbyradge]

Pretty sure our Rod would be renting it out for the festival at an exorbitant rate to someone during this time! :greengrin

I think you'd find it was rented out at an exuberant rate.

[Ozyhibby]

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/aug/08/millions-waiting-for-nhs-operations-in-england-the-highest-total-on-record?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true
Sturgeon needs to get her act together.[emoji35]


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[Just Alf]

My brother (a Jambo, but let's not hold that against him!) reported a really bad headache last Monday, doc sent him for a scan on Wednesday, Thursday they said pop back in for further checks, they found something. Told they needed to check out the reports over the weekend so asked him to come back 1st thing Monday.

Told he had a cancer his head and needed urgent surgery, option was about 3 months as he is now or have the procedure to live longer but no guarantee on walking/talking etc... Agreed to go with it and yesterday woke up, today he's walking and talking......


That's when the NHS are worth their weight in gold.



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[weecounty hibby]

Totally agree, I have told my NHS story here before and it is a wonderful organisation. Hope your bro gets better and hopefully when inside his head they fixed the wiring as well and he's now a Hibby!

[wpj]

Also agree, saved my life last year. Love the NHS

[McD]

My brother (a Jambo, but let's not hold that against him!) reported a really bad headache last Monday, doc sent him for a scan on Wednesday, Thursday they said pop back in for further checks, they found something. Told they needed to check out the reports over the weekend so asked him to come back 1st thing Monday.

Told he had a cancer his head and needed urgent surgery, option was about 3 months as he is now or have the procedure to live longer but no guarantee on walking/talking etc... Agreed to go with it and yesterday woke up, today he's walking and talking......


That's when the NHS are worth their weight in gold.



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glad to hear he’s doing well buddy :aok:

[Just Alf]

Thanks guys... Was trying to add balance. :-)

Still think the sick kids thing is a debacle :-(

Also just left him after visiting, the dirty low life git, is STILL a yam, I've pointed out their hoof ball etc compared to our actual football, but hey ho.... You can lead a horse to water etc... Still love the ugly bugger tho :-)

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[Ozyhibby]

https://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/insight-cashflow-crisis-that-led-to-sick-kids-fiasco-1-4981279/amp?__twitter_impression=true



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[Cataplana]

https://amp.theguardian.com/society/2019/aug/08/millions-waiting-for-nhs-operations-in-england-the-highest-total-on-record?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true
Sturgeon needs to get her act together.[emoji35]


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Those figures are for NHS England. What can she do if people don't know the difference?

[Fife-Hibee]

Those figures are for NHS England. What can she do if people don't know the difference?

I think that was the point. :wink:

[Cataplana]

I think that was the point. :wink:

I know pal.

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49664390

Opening delayed by 'at least' another year at a cost of 'at least' £16 million. If it wasn't for our squabbling parliamentarians this would be a far bigger story than the status it's currently been accorded. Without wishing to name my source I gather that it'll be a good deal longer than a year before we see the building opened.

[Ozyhibby]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-49664390

Opening delayed by 'at least' another year at a cost of 'at least' £16 million. If it wasn't for our squabbling parliamentarians this would be a far bigger story than the status it's currently been accorded. Without wishing to name my source I gather that it'll be a good deal longer than a year before we see the building opened.

Are over run construction projects really big news? HS2 is already nearly double the original cost without a single bit of track being laid and nobody seems concerned. Even if it was cancelled tomorrow they have already spent £8bn.
People not really interested in this sort of thing.


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[marinello59]

Are over run construction projects really big news? HS2 is already nearly double the original cost without a single bit of track being laid and nobody seems concerned. Even if it was cancelled tomorrow they have already spent £8bn.
People not really interested in this sort of thing.


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Really? They should be then, this has been spectacularly mismanaged by somebody and the buck ultimately stops with the Health Minister whether that is fair or not. We are paying out a lot of money for a facility we can’t use.

[Jack]

Really? They should be then, this has been spectacularly mismanaged by somebody and the buck ultimately stops with the Health Minister whether that is fair or not. We are paying out a lot of money for a facility we can’t use.

Can't wait for every Tory that's been in Cabinet over the last 5 years to go for the gross mismanagement of the UK.

[Cataplana]

Are over run construction projects really big news? HS2 is already nearly double the original cost without a single bit of track being laid and nobody seems concerned. Even if it was cancelled tomorrow they have already spent £8bn.
People not really interested in this sort of thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sorry, but being prepared to put children's lives at risk (no bull****) by signing off a hospital that isn't fit for purpose, is beyond the pail.

Nothing to do with money, that behaviour verges on the psychopathic.

[G B Young]

Are over run construction projects really big news? HS2 is already nearly double the original cost without a single bit of track being laid and nobody seems concerned. Even if it was cancelled tomorrow they have already spent £8bn.
People not really interested in this sort of thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Can't agree with you there. As just one of countless parents who have had cause to be endlessly grateful to the Sick Kids and their wonderful staff down the years, I can assure you a lot of people are very interested in this sort of thing. It's more than just a commonplace over-run construction project as it's now become clear the construction errors date right back to fundamental mistakes at the tender stage in 2012, with the result we now have an unusable building costing the public purse £1.4 million a month - not to mention what I assume will be hefty costs involved in keeping the old building functioning as a hospital (and presumably striking a costly deal with the property developers itching to take it over). Staff had already boxed up most of the wards and said farewell before this calamity was revealed on the eve of the big move. Unacceptable mismanagement (as is the HS2 project by the sounds of it).

[lapsedhibee]

Sorry, but being prepared to put children's lives at risk (no bull****) by signing off a hospital that isn't fit for purpose, is beyond the pail.

Pale. A bit of Ireland. :nerd:

[Cataplana]

Pale. A bit of Ireland. :nerd:

I was thinking of a pailing but that is equally wrong it seems.

[lord bunberry]

I don’t understand how a company can build a hospital and obviously not do it properly, yet the taxpayers have to foot the bill. Is there no insurance or liability on the builders here? I’m sure it will all come out eventually, but the whole project has been a shambles.

[Mibbes Aye]

Are over run construction projects really big news? HS2 is already nearly double the original cost without a single bit of track being laid and nobody seems concerned. Even if it was cancelled tomorrow they have already spent £8bn.
People not really interested in this sort of thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

People are more interested in children, especially sick children, and especially sick children who aren’t getting the healthcare that was promised.

That’s always more interesting than train tracks :wink:

[Jones28]

I don’t understand how a company can build a hospital and obviously not do it properly, yet the taxpayers have to foot the bill. Is there no insurance or liability on the builders here? I’m sure it will all come out eventually, but the whole project has been a shambles.

That’s where I am too, how come the liability falls to the tax payer?

[Future17]

I was thinking of a pailing but that is equally wrong it seems.

That very much depends on the context and whether it was Sarah or Michael you were thinking of...:greengrin

[Cataplana]

That very much depends on the context and whether it was Sarah or Michael you were thinking of...:greengrin

To be honest, a pailing sounds a bit dodgy .

[lapsedhibee]

To be honest, a pailing sounds a bit dodgy .

Spelling appalling - paling. :wink:

[Moulin Yarns]

To be honest, a pailing sounds a bit dodgy .

Ask oor Wullie. 😉

[RyeSloan]

That’s where I am too, how come the liability falls to the tax payer?

Because it was NHS Lothian that provided the incorrect specs to the builders. Says as much in the linked story.

So £16m to put right. £1.4m pm for a year before the building can be fully used and approx £7m to keep the existing one going.

That’s one hell of a costly mess but hey what about the Tories and HS2 huh!

[Cataplana]

Because it was NHS Lothian that provided the incorrect specs to the builders. Says as much in the linked story.

So £16m to put right. £1.4m pm for a year before the building can be fully used and approx £7m to keep the existing one going.

That’s one hell of a costly mess but hey what about the Tories and HS2 huh!

Now that's what I call whataboutery.

[G B Young]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49673225

[Cataplana]

Freeman said yesterday, on Good Morning Scotland, that the fault lies with the board.

The number of air conditioning shafts required was wrong on the initial spec. This was corrected, but it was the original number that was built

For some reason, nobody picked up on this until it was too late.

All health care infrastructure is the responsibility of local health boards, and not central government, and has been since devolution.

It appears that a small country like ours does not have the depth of talent to trust local boards to manage big projects like this.

[G B Young]

Public inquiry now launched:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49734184

[RyeSloan]

Public inquiry now launched:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-49734184

Considering the scale and cost of the issues it was the only course of action.

Sure it won’t be top of the list but they could maybe also find out just why they made the QE hospital in Glasgow just so damn ugly!


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[Ozyhibby]

Genuine question, do they have public enquiries down south when construction projects run over? Maybe it only features on local news down there but they don’t seem to cause as much of a fuss down there. And they certainly have plenty projects run over.
And an IT project could probably run over budget by twice as much as this hospital and nobody would bat an eyelid.


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[Mibbes Aye]

Genuine question, do they have public enquiries down south when construction projects run over? Maybe it only features on local news down there but they don’t seem to cause as much of a fuss down there. And they certainly have plenty projects run over.
And an IT project could probably run over budget by twice as much as this hospital and nobody would bat an eyelid.


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In the case of the QEUH, this isn’t about an IT or construction project ‘running over’. This is about a number of patient deaths potentially linked to infection prevention and control that could have been averted through the design and build, or the monitoring of it.

As for the Sick Kids, the problems with the design are such that it was perceived they could be putting children’s lives at risk, hence the stop of the decant to Little France.

This isn’t a construction or IT project running over, this is about patient safety, and potentially negligence. And negligence that may or may have not led to deaths or the risk of deaths.

Public inquiries are vast exercises that consume huge resource and expense but ultimately should get to the bottom of matters and produce findings that are accurate and relevant. I think it is deserved and necessary for these two hospitals, though I would be wary of conflating the findings as they both were developed in similar but nevertheless different situations and dynamics.

[Cataplana]

In the case of the QEUH, this isn’t about an IT or construction project ‘running over’. This is about a number of patient deaths potentially linked to infection prevention and control that could have been averted through the design and build, or the monitoring of it.

As for the Sick Kids, the problems with the design are such that it was perceived they could be putting children’s lives at risk, hence the stop of the decant to Little France.

This isn’t a construction or IT project running over, this is about patient safety, and potentially negligence. And negligence that may or may have not led to deaths or the risk of deaths.

Public inquiries are vast exercises that consume huge resource and expense but ultimately should get to the bottom of matters and produce findings that are accurate and relevant. I think it is deserved and necessary for these two hospitals, though I would be wary of conflating the findings as they both were developed in similar but nevertheless different situations and dynamics.

The deaths at QEUH would probably have occurred whether they had picked up those infections. The patients were very ill to start with.

What I would like to know is whether faults in the ventilation were known before the hospital was signed off.

At the new Sick Kids, we have an actual smoking gun. The board were prepared to sign off the hospital despite knowing it wasn't safe.

Jean Freeman has to be applauded for stepping in and putting a stop to this crime. I would like to know the names of those involved and which ones dissented , as some of them must be clinicians.

[heretoday]

Apparently there were 2,000 snagging problems at the Sick Kids in May and the place won't be ready till next autumn!
So all those hard hats clumping about the Royal for yonks have been making a bollox of their work?
They should be forced to hand back their inflated wage packets. Flipping scandal.

[Danderhall Hibs]

Apparently there were 2,000 snagging problems at the Sick Kids in May and the place won't be ready till next autumn!
So all those hard hats clumping about the Royal for yonks have been making a bollox of their work?
They should be forced to hand back their inflated wage packets. Flipping scandal.

Eating bacon rolls and reading the Sun.

[Cataplana]

Apparently there were 2,000 snagging problems at the Sick Kids in May and the place won't be ready till next autumn!
So all those hard hats clumping about the Royal for yonks have been making a bollox of their work?
They should be forced to hand back their inflated wage packets. Flipping scandal.

Is 2000 a big number for a building of that size? Let's not lose sight of the real scandal by focussing on the sort of thing that happens on every building project.

[Ozyhibby]

Is 2000 a big number for a building of that size? Let's not lose sight of the real scandal by focussing on the sort of thing that happens on every building project.

It isn’t. Snagging can be for some very minor things like a squeaky hinge that is very easily fixed. Snagging will likely continue even after the building is occupied.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Lendo]

Is 2000 a big number for a building of that size? Let's not lose sight of the real scandal by focussing on the sort of thing that happens on every building project.

That was my thoughts exactly. 2,000 on an entirely new hospital seems pretty good going given i have friends that have raised dozens on their new-build homes.

[marinello59]

That was my thoughts exactly. 2,000 on an entirely new hospital seems pretty good going given i have friends that have raised dozens on their new-build homes.

It would be pretty good if it didn’t have one snagging problem that towers over the others. :greengrin

[Allant1981]

It's not really that big an issue in the grand scheme of things, the snagging was highlighted way before may. There are some staff working in the building just now, the DCN will hopefully be open about march time and fingers crossed the rest later in the year

[Scouse Hibee]

2000 snagging issues on a build that size is minor.

[Danderhall Hibs]

2000 snagging issues on a build that size is minor.

In terms of numbers but not in severity. If there was only 1 but the place stays shut it wouldn’t be good.

[Mibbes Aye]

In terms of numbers but not in severity. If there was only 1 but the place stays shut it wouldn’t be good.

:agree:

It was meant to be open before now. It is now debatable if it will actually open, a delay of another year at least?

That’s not snagging, that’s not a dodgy plug socket or an integrated kitchen fridge door that opens left when it should be right.

The problem or at least the one identified is critical in terms of child safety.

[Moulin Yarns]

:agree:

It was meant to be open before now. It is now debatable if it will actually open, a delay of another year at least?

That’s not snagging, that’s not a dodgy plug socket or an integrated kitchen fridge door that opens left when it should be right.

The problem or at least the one identified is critical in terms of child safety.

Which is why the Health Secretary pulled the plug on opening earlier this year.

[Cataplana]

It would be pretty good if it didn’t have one snagging problem that towers over the others. :greengrin

:greengrin

[G B Young]

Further delay until next year:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-54003248

Shows how much Covid has overwhelmed the news agenda that a near four-year delay on a project of this importance tends to tick along as 'in other news'.

Might not seem such a big deal to those without close connections to the Sick Kids, but this has been a shambolic affair.

[Moulin Yarns]

Further delay until next year:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-54003248

Shows how much Covid has overwhelmed the news agenda that a near four-year delay on a project of this importance tends to tick along as 'in other news'.

Might not seem such a big deal to those without close connections to the Sick Kids, but this has been a shambolic affair.

Something I asked about 5 months ago when the Lucy Jordan and Nightingale hospitals were being created, how did they pass all of the stringent tests that the sick kids and Glasgow QE hospitals failed.

They are basically big sheds without the proper ventilation systems needed for hospital air changes.

Any answers?

[Future17]

Something I asked about 5 months ago when the Lucy Jordan and Nightingale hospitals were being created, how did they pass all of the stringent tests that the sick kids and Glasgow QE hospitals failed.

They are basically big sheds without the proper ventilation systems needed for hospital air changes.

Any answers?

I might be oversimplifying this, but is the fact they are basically big sheds not a positive in this regard. Even if the same regulations apply, it's much easier to ventilate a big shed rather than a more intricate building with multiple floors including basements.

[Keith_M]

Something I asked about 5 months ago when the Lucy Jordan and Nightingale hospitals were being created, how did they pass all of the stringent tests that the sick kids and Glasgow QE hospitals failed.

They are basically big sheds without the proper ventilation systems needed for hospital air changes.

Any answers?


Because there's nobody in them, hence the risk of infection is quite low?

:dunno:

[Moulin Yarns]

Because there's nobody in them, hence the risk of infection is quite low?

:dunno:

What I meant is how was the work signed off as meeting stringent hospital criteria for the louisa Jordan when it was created very quickly, but an error in a spreadsheet has stopped the opening of the sick kids?

[Keith_M]

What I meant is how was the work signed off as meeting stringent hospital criteria for the louisa Jordan when it was created very quickly, but an error in a spreadsheet has stopped the opening of the sick kids?


'Ventilation guidelines mean that critical care rooms need 10 air changes every hour to control the spread of infections.

But the “environmental matrix” spreadsheet from 2012 that contained the specifications sent to contractors called for “four air changes” instead of 10. '
Scotsman Article (https://www.scotsman.com/health/edinburgh-royal-hospital-sick-children-report-finds-spreadsheet-error-led-ps16-million-opening-delay-2953046)


The contractors actually carried out the work based on the specs they were given. This meant that a very large amount of (time consuming) work had to be re-done. Interestingly, this is only one of many mistakes made.

I presume the same level of mistakes weren't made at the other hospital, so it met the criteria for opening (since it has limited facilities, it was also much simpler)

[Moulin Yarns]

10 air changes an hour for the SEC would be something worth seeing. Any sailboat on the Clyde would end up in nova scotia.

[Keith_M]

10 air changes an hour for the SEC would be something worth seeing. Any sailboat on the Clyde would end up in nova scotia.


:greengrin

[Santa Cruz]

Fully open from 23 March.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-56351225

[Keith_M]

Good news it's finally opened... even if it is 18 months late.

[G B Young]

Good news it's finally opened... even if it is 18 months late.

...and many millions over budget, partly due to the additional costs involved in keeping the old building operational. They've also had to shell out nearly £30 million over repayments for a largely empty building. Freeman must be glad her impending retirement will spare her a lot of parliamentary flak over the public inquiry into this and the Queen Elizabeth in Glasgow.

But yes, it is genuinely good news that it has finally got the green light. Having had cause to be very grateful to its services down the years, I know the amazing Sick Kids staff thorougly deserve to be working in these much-improved facilities.