Is the current political system broken beyond repair or fit for purpose?

[matty_f]

As we are now in a position where we have an unelected Etonian Prime Minister leading a party that required to bribe the DUP with £1bn in order to form a government, as the country heads into a Brexit situation which was decided on an almost 50/50 decision, and with demonstable lies having been told through the campaign. A position where a man who has twice lost jobs for dishonesty, has been involved in threats to journalist, is now the Prime Minister. Where politicians are no longer held to account (e.g. breaking the ministerial code and yet not resigning for it), and where the elite continue to run over the top of everyone else - have we hit a point where we can safely say that politics in Britain is broken beyond repair?

Even thinking about the European elections, we had the Brexit Party with NO policies getting voted in, and there's a good chance that should Bawjaws Johnston call a General Election, the Tories will cuddle up with the Brexit Party (still with no policies) to form a Government.

There is no accountability on the face of things now, we seem to be in a position where people can do whatever they want, shamelessly, and come out smelling of roses. We have a position where Nigal bloody Farage is influential somehow.

How do you even start fixing this situation?

[Fife-Hibee]

You missed out the part about his partner Carrie Symonds who was sacked several weeks ago for dodgy expense claims walking into number 10 on a 100K+ per annum ticket.

[NORTHERNHIBBY]

I suspect that in line with populist actions, Boris will get the motorways built and the trains to run on time, but I fear that pluralism and democratic principles and accountability are a thing of the past.

[matty_f]

You missed out the part about his partner Carrie Symonds who was sacked several weeks ago for dodgy expense claims walking into number 10 on a 100K+ per annum ticket.

I missed a lot off stuff out. The point remains though.

I saw someone describe the situation just now as being like all the bad kids in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory have won.

[Lester B]

You missed out the part about his partner Carrie Symonds who was sacked several weeks ago for dodgy expense claims walking into number 10 on a 100K+ per annum ticket.

Those are matters of conjecture especially the expenses claims. There's more than enough that is verifiable as listed by the OP

[Onceinawhile]

The system is working perfectly.

The problem is the people who designed and run the system.

[Fife-Hibee]

Those are matters of conjecture especially the expenses claims. There's more than enough that is verifiable as listed by the OP

I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing a tory would say to someone when they don't want them to know all of the details behind their dubious behaviour.

[Fife-Hibee]

The system is working perfectly.

The problem is the people who designed and run the system.

If by that you mean that it's working exactly as it's designed to, then you'd be right.

[The Modfather]

The system is working perfectly.

The problem is the people who designed and run the system.

I’m not sure it is. I don’t see much accountability in politics. Promise the world, get in power and then use smoke and mirrors to distract from whether you delivered what you promised.

I’ve said it before. Parties manifestos should be in the form of a business plan. We’ll increase spending on x by reducing spending on y with the net benefit being z. That way there is genuine accountability when reviewing performance against what was promised.

The current political system is more about who you know/what family you were born into, self interest and petty point scoring.

I appreciate how complicated it would be to do and at the end of the day there’s still a finite amount of money to use. However, should we look at ring fencing specific amounts for social policies, health etc where there has to be cross party work in pulling those policies together regardless of who is in power at any one time? I know there’s many holes in my idea but I think the principle is a good one.

[Lester B]

I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing a tory would say to someone when they don't want them to know all of the details behind their dubious behaviour.

Oh really? Is that right?

You really are most tiresome individual.

And you're pretty sure of everything you say huh?

[Fife-Hibee]

Government is a gang. You need to be corrupt to get into a position of influence in the first place. If you're not corrupt and actually want to make real changes to the system (not just bluster) you'll either be hounded to death by the media, or you'll disappear very quickly before anybody barely knows your name.

[Fife-Hibee]

Oh really? Is that right?

You really are most tiresome individual.

And you're pretty sure of everything you say huh?

Yes. Otherwise I wouldn't say it.

[Lester B]

Yes. Otherwise I wouldn't say it.

Then why is so much of it palpable nonsense? Asking for a friend.

[Fife-Hibee]

Then why is so much of it palpable nonsense? Asking for a friend.

No, you're asking for yourself. It's "palpable nonsense" in your view. Which is utterly irrelevant to me.

Good day.

[matty_f]

The system is working perfectly.

The problem is the people who designed and run the system.

It's not working though, at least not for the majority of people. Engagement at elections is shocking, even for a monumentally important vote like Brexit saw over a quarter of the electorate not engage.

The turnout for local elections and general elections show a total apathy.

Then there's the say one thing/do the opposite and carry on regardless (Brexit is bad to Brexit is good etc).

The whole thing seems to be in the hands of a few folk who get to do whatever they want with zero consequence to them.

[Lester B]

No, you're asking for yourself. It's "palpable nonsense" in your view. Which is utterly irrelevant to me.

Good day.

Me amongst others.

Never argue with an NPD, I really should know better

[Fife-Hibee]

Me amongst others.

Never argue with an NPD, I really should know better

Not all NPDs are tories, but all tories are NPDs.

You should choose your words better.

[lapsedhibee]

As we are now in a position where we have an unelected Etonian Prime Minister leading a party that required to bribe the DUP with £1bn in order to form a government, as the country heads into a Brexit situation which was decided on an almost 50/50 decision, and with demonstable lies having been told through the campaign. A position where a man who has twice lost jobs for dishonesty, has been involved in threats to journalist, is now the Prime Minister. Where politicians are no longer held to account (e.g. breaking the ministerial code and yet not resigning for it), and where the elite continue to run over the top of everyone else - have we hit a point where we can safely say that politics in Britain is broken beyond repair?

Even thinking about the European elections, we had the Brexit Party with NO policies getting voted in, and there's a good chance that should Bawjaws Johnston call a General Election, the Tories will cuddle up with the Brexit Party (still with no policies) to form a Government.

There is no accountability on the face of things now, we seem to be in a position where people can do whatever they want, shamelessly, and come out smelling of roses. We have a position where Nigal bloody Farage is influential somehow.

How do you even start fixing this situation?
Don't disagree with any of the points you've made, but dislike propagating the idea that representative democracy in this country is broken, because that will be broadcast by ******** ******** ***** like Farage as 'representative democracy is broken' and a different model will be suggested (such as his ****** ******* **** 'direct democracy').

[Sylar]

Yes. Otherwise I wouldn't say it.

Which is fine and well Fife, but if someone legitimately challenges you when you say such things, be a man and reply to it?

You've been pulled up numerous times about misinformation in a number of threads - rather than responding to that, you simply disappear from said thread for a few days before you resume posting.

It's OK to admit to getting things wrong in the heat of debate - I respect posters on here who can do that much more than those who put their head in the sand.

[SHODAN]

A few weeks ago Labour, the Tories, LDs and BP were all on roughly the same percentages of votes in the opinion polls. The seat projection for this was 100-200 for Lab/Con and 50ish for LD/BP.

FPTP ensures that only two parties can ever have the majority of power regardless of how people vote as the demographic structure of the invisible lines they created themselves either definitely votes for one of them or usually votes for one of them - gains for non-establishment parties are spread among the country as they haven't been able to rig the invisible lines in their favour. We need proportional representation but because neither of Labour/the Tories will ever form a majority government again if that happens, they will never change the system to implement it.

It's entirely possible that the Lib Dems or (dare I say it) the Brexit Party could comfortably gain the most votes in the next election, but still not actually "win". System's ****ed. And before anyone bleats on about FPTP favouring the SNP in Scotland, I'm fully aware of that and would gladly sacrifice non-Lab/Con seats if it meant a fairer electoral system that promotes working together instead of winner takes all.

[marinello59]

Government is a gang. You need to be corrupt to get into a position of influence in the first place. If you're not corrupt and actually want to make real changes to the system (not just bluster) you'll either be hounded to death by the media, or you'll disappear very quickly before anybody barely knows your name.

So Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are basically corrupt?

[Fife-Hibee]

Which is fine and well Fife, but if someone legitimately challenges you when you say such things, be a man and reply to it?

You've been pulled up numerous times about misinformation in a number of threads - rather than responding to that, you simply disappear from said thread for a few days before you resume posting.

It's OK to admit to getting things wrong in the heat of debate - I respect posters on here who can do that much more than those who put their head in the sand.

That's not it at all. People say i'm wrong because they believe i'm wrong. Not because they've actually proven that i'm wrong with indisputable evidence. As long as there isn't indisputable evidence available, it's always open to opinion which is what I provide. Whether people agree with it or not.

[marinello59]

:rolleyes:
Another thread ****ed before it gets going properly.

[Fife-Hibee]

So Nicola Sturgeon and the SNP are basically corrupt?

What do you want me to say? That the SNP are the anomaly to this rule?

I don't back the SNP, I back independence. The SNP just happen to be the only horse available that can take us there.

[Lester B]

:rolleyes:
Another thread ****ed before it gets going properly.

Mea culpa. Sorry

[Moulin Yarns]

What do you want me to say? That the SNP are the anomaly to this rule?

I don't back the SNP, I back independence. The SNP just happen to be the only horse available that can take us there.

Not true if everyone that claims they 'would' vote Green actually had the guts to actually do so.

[Fife-Hibee]

Not true if everyone that claims they 'would' vote Green actually had the guts to actually do so.

They don't though, that's the fact of the matter. The few that do are only weakening the force that can deliver it.

As long as people continue to vote for the party that they support right now, rather than looking to the long run, then independence won't be delivered. Even if they support it.

[marinello59]

Not true if everyone that claims they 'would' vote Green actually had the guts to actually do so.

:agree:

[Moulin Yarns]

They don't though, that's the fact of the matter. The few that do are only weakening the force that can deliver it.

As long as people continue to vote for the party that they support right now, rather than looking to the long run, then independence won't be delivered. Even if they support it.

So, you are advocating not voting for the party you support, or may be a member of, for ideological reasons. That is about as bad as voting anyone to stop the SNP which has happened at past elections.

Sorry, but I'm a bit more principled than that. I have voted SNP in the past, and will do so again, but there is a party which offers policies which are closer to my own views. Let's not claim that any one party offers everything that anyone wants, even you must admit that occasionally the party you support/vote for don't meet your own views on things.

[The Modfather]

Can we get the thread back on track please to what could be a potentially interesting discussion.

[Fife-Hibee]

So, you are advocating not voting for the party you support, or may be a member of, for ideological reasons. That is about as bad as voting anyone to stop the SNP which has happened at past elections.

Sorry, but I'm a bit more principled than that. I have voted SNP in the past, and will do so again, but there is a party which offers policies which are closer to my own views. Let's not claim that any one party offers everything that anyone wants, even you must admit that occasionally the party you support/vote for don't meet your own views on things.

You may believe that what you're doing is the principled thing. But you aren't doing that party any favours by backing them right now. Their overall influence in UK politics is as good as non-existant.

Sometimes you've got to put logic before principle in order for your principle to actually count for something in the long run.

I know that's not what people like to hear, but somebody has to say it.

[Fife-Hibee]

Can we get the thread back on track please to what could be a potentially interesting discussion.

My apologies.

[Fife-Hibee]

Original post:

As we are now in a position where we have an unelected Etonian Prime Minister leading a party that required to bribe the DUP with £1bn in order to form a government, as the country heads into a Brexit situation which was decided on an almost 50/50 decision, and with demonstable lies having been told through the campaign. A position where a man who has twice lost jobs for dishonesty, has been involved in threats to journalist, is now the Prime Minister. Where politicians are no longer held to account (e.g. breaking the ministerial code and yet not resigning for it), and where the elite continue to run over the top of everyone else - have we hit a point where we can safely say that politics in Britain is broken beyond repair?

Even thinking about the European elections, we had the Brexit Party with NO policies getting voted in, and there's a good chance that should Bawjaws Johnston call a General Election, the Tories will cuddle up with the Brexit Party (still with no policies) to form a Government.

There is no accountability on the face of things now, we seem to be in a position where people can do whatever they want, shamelessly, and come out smelling of roses. We have a position where Nigal bloody Farage is influential somehow.

How do you even start fixing this situation?

[Moulin Yarns]

You may believe that what you're doing is the principled thing. But you aren't doing that party any favours by backing them right now. Their overall influence in UK politics is as good as non-existant.

Sometimes you've got to put logic before principle in order for your principle to actually count for something in the long run.

I know that's not what people like to hear, but somebody has to say it.

Yep, OK, whatever you say.

[Moulin Yarns]

As we are now in a position where we have an unelected Etonian Prime Minister leading a party that required to bribe the DUP with £1bn in order to form a government, as the country heads into a Brexit situation which was decided on an almost 50/50 decision, and with demonstable lies having been told through the campaign. A position where a man who has twice lost jobs for dishonesty, has been involved in threats to journalist, is now the Prime Minister. Where politicians are no longer held to account (e.g. breaking the ministerial code and yet not resigning for it), and where the elite continue to run over the top of everyone else - have we hit a point where we can safely say that politics in Britain is broken beyond repair?

Even thinking about the European elections, we had the Brexit Party with NO policies getting voted in, and there's a good chance that should Bawjaws Johnston call a General Election, the Tories will cuddle up with the Brexit Party (still with no policies) to form a Government.

There is no accountability on the face of things now, we seem to be in a position where people can do whatever they want, shamelessly, and come out smelling of roses. We have a position where Nigal bloody Farage is influential somehow.

How do you even start fixing this situation?

Back on track, Is it at all possible for the public to lobby for or demand a form of proportional representation to Westminster. The Holyrood system isn't perfect, it was designed to prevent a majority government and failed with the SNP gaining a majority, but it is better than the FPTP at Westminster.

Does anyone fancy starting a Change.org poll?

[marinello59]

Back on track, Is it at all possible for the public to lobby for or demand a form of proportional representation to Westminster. The Holyrood system isn't perfect, it was designed to prevent a majority government and failed with the SNP gaining a majority, but it is better than the FPTP at Westminster.

Does anyone fancy starting a Change.org poll?

One of the arguments against PR was that it could see smaller parties have power and influence which was disproportionate to their actual support. That’s where we are just now under the current system with the DUP.
I don’t think politics is broken as such, the Scottish Parliament for instance continues to operate well. Westminster however has found itself paralysed by a single issue, a situation we are in because of the weak leadership of the UKs two main parties. We have no effective opposition to the minority ruling party at the moment which is why we have Back Door Boris not only in power but feeling that he can do as he pleases. Sort out the opposition and the system will right itself.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Can we get the thread back on track please to what could be a potentially interesting discussion.

Surely the gullibility of the public has a role to play in how politics are today.

[marinello59]

Surely the gullibility of the public has a role to play in how politics are today.

As long as we dismiss those who fail to vote the way that we want as gullible etc then things will remain in paralysis. It just deepens the division.

[Moulin Yarns]

One of the arguments against PR was that it could see smaller parties have power and influence which was disproportionate to their actual support. That’s where we are just now under the current system with the DUP.
I don’t think politics is broken as such, the Scottish Parliament for instance continues to operate well. Westminster however has found itself paralysed by a single issue, a situation we are in because of the weak leadership of the UKs two main parties. We have no effective opposition to the minority ruling party at the moment which is why we have Back Door Boris not only in power but feeling that he can do as he pleases. Sort out the opposition and the system will right itself.

I know what you mean about pr but the 2 party system is the problem.

I assume you also mean the Scottish Green Party holding some influence over the snp at holyrood as well. 😁

[Cataplana]

I'm pretty sure that's the kind of thing a tory would say to someone when they don't want them to know all of the details behind their dubious behaviour.

Is it not the sort of thing anybody would say if they wanted to hide details of dubious behaviour?

What is dubious behaviour anyway?

[Bangkok Hibby]

As long as we dismiss those who fail to vote the way that we want as gullible etc then things will remain in paralysis. It just deepens the division.


I don't want to impose my views on anyone. People will vote how they vote. Divisions, deep or shallow don't come into it. It is my contention that vast swathes of the voting public are to put it nicely, gullible. Many more and this includes those who don't vote are just too stupid to realise what they're doing. This maybe sounds arrogant but I remain convinced it's true. Look at the responses on any FB or Twitter post for an example of the brain dead Brits.

So in response to the OP I would say that it's the voters/non voters who put the politicians there, so they must share the blame for the current state of British politics.

[marinello59]

I know what you mean about pr but the 2 party system is the problem.

I assume you also mean the Scottish Green Party holding some influence over the snp at holyrood as well. 😁

Obviously I think that the Greens having influence is good and the DUP having influence is bad.:greengrin
I am in favour of PR but that still requires an effective opposition to emerge.

[Moulin Yarns]

Obviously I think that the Greens having influence is good and the DUP having influence is bad.:greengrin
I am in favour of PR but that still requires an effective opposition to emerge.


👍😁

[Sylar]

That's not it at all. People say i'm wrong because they believe i'm wrong. Not because they've actually proven that i'm wrong with indisputable evidence. As long as there isn't indisputable evidence available, it's always open to opinion which is what I provide. Whether people agree with it or not.

Except, your suggestion about exports to “British Water” was downright tosh. Not opinion...(i have a PhD in water resources and teach undergrad and postgrad modules on Scotland’s water resources, so I know that was utterly wrong).

And when challenged 5 or 6 times, you consistently failed to reply.

You have a right to speculate when uncertainty is abound but don’t run away when people CAN debunk some of your thinking.

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't want to impose my views on anyone. People will vote how they vote. Divisions, deep or shallow don't come into it. It is my contention that vast swathes of the voting public are to put it nicely, gullible. Many more and this includes those who don't vote are just to stupid to realise what they're doing. This maybe sounds arrogant but I remain convinced it's true. Look at the responses on any FB or Twitter post for an example of the brain dead Brits.

So in response to the OP I would say that it's the voters/non voters who put the politicians there, so they must share the blame for the current state of British politics.

I would say that much of it comes down to selfishness as opposed to stupidity. (Although they can be closely linked at times)

Case in point: You have 3 parties. Party A, Party B and Party C.

Party A completely rejects climate change, rejects the sciences behind it and panders to the big corporations and nuclear giants.
Party B accepts the science and that steps must be taken to lower carbon emissions and the use of waste plastics. But they also understand the importance of business and protecting jobs and the economy. They want to find a workable compromise.
Party C wants to introduce major policy overhauls right now, implementing carbon emission and plastic product production taxes on big corporations. Which will impact profits and would ultimately result in large job losses.

Now you may be all for Party C. Which is fair enough. It's what you believe in, it's your principles. However, you look at the polls and you see that Party A and Party B are neck and neck in the polls, with Party C falling somewhat behind the other two. You could lend your vote to Party B and that way if they win, you'll at least get some of the things you wanted to see by making that compromise. But you're so dead set on your principles and getting it all your own way that you vote for Party C. Party B loses out to Party A and you end up getting nothing that you wanted.

That's the state of modern politics right there.

[Fife-Hibee]

Except, your suggestion about exports to “British Water” was downright tosh. Not opinion...(i have a PhD in water resources and teach undergrad and postgrad modules on Scotland’s water resources, so I know that was utterly wrong).

And when challenged 5 or 6 times, you consistently failed to reply.

You have a right to speculate when uncertainty is abound but don’t run away when people CAN debunk some of your thinking.

How do I know you have a PhD in water resources? Just because you say you do, doesn't mean I should simply believe it. It may well be true, but i'm not automatically going to assume that it is, just because you say so. Why should I?

I have seen Scottish Water taken to task on this question through freedom of information requests and although they have responded. They respond in such a way that it doesn't fully answer the question. They make it clear that they neither pipe or channel water south of the border. But there are of course other transportation methods and when asked about them, no clear answer is provided.

[Sylar]

A fair question since we’re all anonymous on here, but there are plenty of posters on here that known me and can verify easily.

And again, that’s complete and utter bull****. Not opinion, factually inaccurate nonsense.

[Cataplana]

How do I know you have a PhD in water resources? Just because you say you do, doesn't mean I should simply believe it. It may well be true, but i'm not automatically going to assume that it is, just because you say so. Why should I?

I have seen Scottish Water taken to task on this question through freedom of information requests and although they have responded. They respond in such a way that it doesn't fully answer the question. They make it clear that they neither pipe or channel water south of the border. But there are of course other transportation methods and when asked about them, no clear answer is provided.

:faf:

In the interests of full disclosure, can you confirm that you don't have a PhD in water resources? I'm not going to assume that you don't, why should I?

[lord bunberry]

I don't want to impose my views on anyone. People will vote how they vote. Divisions, deep or shallow don't come into it. It is my contention that vast swathes of the voting public are to put it nicely, gullible. Many more and this includes those who don't vote are just to stupid to realise what they're doing. This maybe sounds arrogant but I remain convinced it's true. Look at the responses on any FB or Twitter post for an example of the brain dead Brits.

So in response to the OP I would say that it's the voters/non voters who put the politicians there, so they must share the blame for the current state of British politics.
Why would that be a uniquely British thing though. The standard of education here is high. Tbh you come across like a lot of people who have moved away from the UK.

[Fife-Hibee]

A fair question since we’re all anonymous on here, but there are plenty of posters on here that known me and can verify easily.

And again, that’s complete and utter bull****. Not opinion, factually inaccurate nonsense.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/is_scottish_water_going_to_engla

I'm sure there's people on here who would back you up anyway, even if they don't know themselves if it's true. Just to get one over on Fife-Hibee.

[Fife-Hibee]

Why would that be a uniquely British thing though. The standard of education here is high. Tbh you come across like a lot of people who have moved away from the UK.

I haven't and I agree with him. As for our education standards. What are they measured against? There's a common saying in this country that real learning doesn't begin until after you leave school. Hardly a glaring endorsement of the British education system.

[Bangkok Hibby]

Why would that be a uniquely British thing though. The standard of education here is high. Tbh you come across like a lot of people who have moved away from the UK.

The OP is about BRITISH politics. If there's a question about Thai, French, or East Timor politics I'll have a bash at commenting on that.
How are you measuring the standard of education? How many take advantage of this high standard? The kids who go to uni because "its what you do" study nonsense courses then end up working in call centres?
I'll ignore the comment about ex pats. You know nothing about me or how involved I've been in politics and unionism during my life.

[Pretty Boy]

Why am I not surprised this thread has gone the way it has?

The sooner this part of the forum is closed for good the better.

[Cataplana]

I haven't and I agree with him. As for our education standards. What are they measured against? There's a common saying in this country that real learning doesn't begin until after you leave school. Hardly a glaring endorsement of the British education system.

I think it's fair to say they are measured by more reliable data than common sayings and hearsay. Are you suggesting that we don't send children to school?

[Fife-Hibee]

If our education standards are so good. Then why do we have people like Boris Johnson at the helm of our political pyramid?

Remember, he was put there by 100,000+ tories, many of whom will have been educated at establishments considered Britains best.

[Fife-Hibee]

I think it's fair to say they are measured by more reliable data than common sayings and hearsay. Are you suggesting that we don't send children to school?

Just how much do we know about this reliable data? According to this data, Eton College and Oxford are 2 of the top establishments in the UK for education. Yet somehow, someone like Boris Johnson made it through them both. When far higher intellects could only dream of getting a scholarship at these places.


Why am I not surprised this thread has gone the way it has?

The sooner this part of the forum is closed for good the better.

Well you can shut it down for yourself right now by choosing to avoid it. Nobody is forcing you to come on here and read anything.

[Cataplana]

If our education standards are so good. Then why do we have people like Boris Johnson at the helm of our political pyramid?

Remember, he was put there by 100,000+ tories, many of whom will have been educated at establishments considered Britains best.

I don't think that's a reliable measure of education standards, but rather your own personal prejudice. Am I to take it you don't actually know how they are measured?

[Fife-Hibee]

I don't think that's a reliable measure of education standards, but rather your own personal prejudice. Am I to take it you don't actually know how they are measured?

I know they are measured using so called "reliable data". But just like yourself, I have no idea what is actually contained within this data. What does the data consider "good education"?

Is it simply measured on grades in subjects like Maths, English, Business Management and Economics? Or does it measure other intellectual abilities such as compassion, empathy and social awareness?

People like Boris Johnson prove that you don't need to be intelligent to get high grades in our education system. Because our education system doesn't appear to measure things that should probably be valued more.

[Pretty Boy]

Part of the problem with politics in the UK is that a sizeable chunk of the population expects a personal morality from politicians that is verging on the impossible. Many of the same people will overlook a lot of dubious professional behaviour but we love a bit of tabloid scandal. That goes for the self appointed intellectual elite as well, read the Guardian opinion pieces for an insight into this. Theresa May was slaughtered for her 'running through a wheat field' stock answer. Just imagine the furore if she gave a real answer and said 'the naughtiest thing I ever done was get out my face at uni, take a line of coke and have a threesome with my best mate and her boyfriend'. She would have been out a job within 2 days. Is it any wonder we have ended up with either an entitled brunch of brats who believe they are natural leaders or dull careerists in suits. Then you get a couple of characters who are 'different' and they end up promoted way above their abilities and leading the 2 major parties. Anyone with half a brain realises you can make a lot more money and arguably a lot more difference steering well away from politics. On a tenuously related note nothing gets on my nerves more than a Labour politician being dismissed by someone, who is supposed to be on their side, because they 'went to Oxford'. Do we believe in social mobility and equality of opportunity or not? Should they have known their place and went to the local polytechnic and leave Oxford for the Etonians?

I also think the short term nature of democracy creates a situation in which ideology is often overlooked in favour of popularity. The government has 5 years to stay in power, the opposition 5 years to get there. The average life span of a UK government in the modern era is somewhere between 5 and 15 years, give or take a couple of years here and there. That's not a lot of time to really change a system and country. We ultimately end up with governments trying to placate as large a chunk of the population as they can or an opposition trying to woo them.

Finally, and it's a point I've made before, too many people only want to read and hear things they agree with. They don't want to listen or debate, they have no inclination to be open to having their mind changed. For many all they desire is to hear their own voice and regurgitate the opinions of others who they happen to agree with. One of the most underrated skills in life is being able to actually understand an argument that is in opposition to your own, consider it on it's merits and recognise why someone may feel that way. It's a skill few possess and I'd happily include myself in that generalisation.

[Fife-Hibee]

If minds aren't being changed, then it could be argued that those trying to change minds aren't doing enough.

It seems to be common place now that if you can't change a persons mind, it's because they're simply not listening to you. I mean, it can't possibly be yourself that is at fault? The other person must be to blame somehow.

[marinello59]

Well you can shut it down for yourself right now by choosing to avoid it. Nobody is forcing you to come on here and read anything.

Yet another thread became all about you. It’s beyond tedious now.

[Pretty Boy]

Just how much do we know about this reliable data? According to this data, Eton College and Oxford are 2 of the top establishments in the UK for education. Yet somehow, someone like Boris Johnson made it through them both. When far higher intellects could only dream of getting a scholarship at these places.



Well you can shut it down for yourself right now by choosing to avoid it. Nobody is forcing you to come on here and read anything.

I didn't say anyone was forcing me to read it. I'm not going to be told by you, or anyone, what parts of the forum I should or shouldn't read though. Some of us give up our own time to moderate these forums and I know I'm not the only one feeling that this particular area of the board is increasingly more bother than it's worth.

A lot of people used to enjoy this forum and many are now conspicuous by their absence because a handful of posters have ruined it for everyone else.

[Fife-Hibee]

Yet another thread became all about you. It’s beyond tedious now.

I simply respond to quotes, just as i'm responding to this one now. If people don't want me to actively engage in the threads, then they shouldn't quote me.

It's quite simple really.

If you wish for me to leave this section of the board then I will. It's becoming abundantly clear that presenting points of view that challenge anything that is unquestionably accepted as the norm on here is generally frowned upon.

I apologize for adding challenging view points to subjects that I thought were here to be challenged.

[Hibrandenburg]

:rolleyes:
Another thread ****ed before it gets going properly.

:agree:

[stoneyburn hibs]

It's been broken for Scotland for far too long.

[Hibrandenburg]

The people are broken not politics. Populist parties wouldn't have a chance if the people were educated, unfortunately our society is after instant gratification and those who promise it are taken at their word. Fix the people and politics will follow.

[stoneyburn hibs]

The people are broken not politics. Populist parties wouldn't have a chance if the people were educated, unfortunately our society is after instant gratification and those who promise it are taken at their word. Fix the people and politics will follow.

Good post.

[Bangkok Hibby]

I simply respond to quotes, just as i'm responding to this one now. If people don't want me to actively engage in the threads, then they shouldn't quote me.

It's quite simple really.

If you wish for me to leave this section of the board then I will. It's becoming abundantly clear that presenting points of view that challenge anything that is unquestionably accepted as the norm on here is generally frowned upon.

I apologize for adding challenging view points to subjects that I thought were here to be challenged.

Nah mate you hang around. You're not breaking any rules. As you say people don't need to quote you. There's tons of **** I don't agree with but mostly just ignore it.

[Cataplana]

I know they are measured using so called "reliable data". But just like yourself, I have no idea what is actually contained within this data. What does the data consider "good education"?

Is it simply measured on grades in subjects like Maths, English, Business Management and Economics? Or does it measure other intellectual abilities such as compassion, empathy and social awareness?

People like Boris Johnson prove that you don't need to be intelligent to get high grades in our education system. Because our education system doesn't appear to measure things that should probably be valued more.

I'm not your clerk, it was you that said it wasn't fit for purpose, you need to provide the data.

However, you appear to be trying to melt into the crowd as an innocent bystander instead.

[Hibrandenburg]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/is_scottish_water_going_to_engla

I'm sure there's people on here who would back you up anyway, even if they don't know themselves if it's true. Just to get one over on Fife-Hibee.

That's paranoia in a nutshell.

[Hibrandenburg]

Why would that be a uniquely British thing though. The standard of education here is high. Tbh you come across like a lot of people who have moved away from the UK.

It's not uniquely British. You come across like someone who hasn't experienced anything outside his own backyard.

[marinello59]

So in response to the OP I would say that it's the voters/non voters who put the politicians there, so they must share the blame for the current state of British politics.

Didn’t somebody once say something along the lines of the only thing wrong with democracy was the electorate? :greengrin
We’ve seen it said after the Brexit vote and the Scottish referundum that people only voted the ‘wrong’ way because they were too gullible, too stupid, too scared etc. I just don’t buy it.
With Brexit there was a large section of the electorate who felt left behind, it was a chance for them to make their voice heard. If the system as they saw it was failing them then why on Earth would they vote for the status quo? That would have been illogical.

[Saturday Boy]

Interesting thread, with some interesting ideas. I’m kinda of the view that it’s not the system that’s at fault.
I think part of the problem is around how we, as an electorate value MPs. Whenever a pay rise for MPs is mentioned, there’s a huge outcry, which results in MPs and the PM receiving salaries the public more or less approve of. And yet these salaries are considerably less than the most able people and the best brains can receive in the private sector.
As a result we’re currently in a situation where hereditary millionaires are running the country, almost as a hobby.
There’s obviously no guarantee that paying top money will get the best - Fred Goodwin and Torre Andre Flo come to mind, but I sometimes think that even in politics, we get what we pay for.

[Fife-Hibee]

Interesting thread, with some interesting ideas. I’m kinda of the view that it’s not the system that’s at fault.
I think part of the problem is around how we, as an electorate value MPs. Whenever a pay rise for MPs is mentioned, there’s a huge outcry, which results in MPs and the PM receiving salaries the public more or less approve of. And yet these salaries are considerably less than the most able people and the best brains can receive in the private sector.
As a result we’re currently in a situation where hereditary millionaires are running the country, almost as a hobby.
There’s obviously no guarantee that paying top money will get the best - Fred Goodwin and Torre Andre Flo come to mind, but I sometimes think that even in politics, we get what we pay for.

Higher salaries wouldn't be a problem as such if they couldn't claim so many ridiculous things at the expense of the tax payer. They may recieve a middle of the road salary for their level of qualification and expertise. But they seldom pay for anything.

[The Modfather]

I’m an idealist at heart, but always wondered how successful a new party (or even a current party adopting this approach) decided to adopt the centre ground and didn’t promise the earth but were grounded and realistic.

If they were to say here’s what we want to do, here’s the details of how we will work towards it, but it will take x number of years to achieve as the end goals can only be achieved incrementally.

[Smartie]

I’m an idealist at heart, but always wondered how successful a new party (or even a current party adopting this approach) decided to adopt the centre ground and didn’t promise the earth but were grounded and realistic.

If they were to say here’s what we want to do, here’s the details of how we will work towards it, but it will take x number of years to achieve as the end goals can only be achieved incrementally.

I think the sensible ground is absolutely there for the taking.

It's easy to get drawn into sweeping statements and silly generalisations but at heart I still think the majority of people are intelligent, sensible, rational and prepared to listen. They don't make much noise though, so it seems like the world is full of extreme nutters and the problem is that our main parties appear to be moving to the fringes to appease these nutters.

Pragmatic, sensible people are just waiting for a sensible option to choose.

[lord bunberry]

The OP is about BRITISH politics. If there's a question about Thai, French, or East Timor politics I'll have a bash at commenting on that.
How are you measuring the standard of education? How many take advantage of this high standard? The kids who go to uni because "its what you do" study nonsense courses then end up working in call centres?
I'll ignore the comment about ex pats. You know nothing about me or how involved I've been in politics and unionism during my life.

I’m comparing our education standards with the rest throughout the world, it’s by no means the best, but it’s far from the worst. I stand by my ex pats opinion, calling people brain dead Brits or similar is common amongst ex pats for some reason.

[Fife-Hibee]

I’m comparing our education standards with the rest throughout the world, it’s by no means the best, but it’s far from the worst. I stand by my ex pats opinion, calling people brain dead Brits or similar is common amongst ex pats for some reason.

I'm pretty sure Bangkok Hibby correctly and humbly accepts himself as a foreigner.

An expat is a foreigner who is generally too arrogant (and usually racist) to accept that they are a foreigner in another country.

[Hibrandenburg]

I'm pretty sure Bangkok Hibby correctly and humbly accepts himself as a foreigner.

An expat is a foreigner who is generally too arrogant (and usually racist) to accept that they are a foreigner in another country.

What the **** are you on about. Put the bottle down and call it a night.

[Fife-Hibee]

What the **** are you on about. Put the bottle down and call it a night.

I think it's real cute that you're jumping on the "disagree with anything Fife-Hibee" says bandwagon. I'm sure your mates will give you a nice wee pat on the back for it.

However, if you're not going to produce anything credible to discredit my point, then don't bother quoting me.

[lord bunberry]

I'm pretty sure Bangkok Hibby correctly and humbly accepts himself as a foreigner.

An expat is a foreigner who is generally too arrogant (and usually racist) to accept that they are a foreigner in another country.
That’s nothing to do with the point I was making. My point wasn’t really directed at Bangkok hibby(although he did make the brain dead Brit comment) or any other ex pats on this forum. It was more from my experience of meeting them when on holiday.

[Fife-Hibee]

That’s nothing to do with the point I was making. My point wasn’t really directed at Bangkok hibby(although he did make the brain dead Brit comment) or any other ex pats on this forum. It was more from my experience of meeting them when on holiday.

I agree with you. It's the same impression I get from those who carry the "expat" label as well. I suppose the point I was trying to make (albiet not so well reading it back now) is that there are British people who live abroad who refuse to carry the expat label, accept that they are foreigners in another country and respect the culture of that country. They're distinctly less arrogant than those who carry around the "expat" badge.

[Hibrandenburg]

I think it's real cute that you're jumping on the "disagree with anything Fife-Hibee" says bandwagon. I'm sure your mates will give you a nice wee pat on the back for it.

However, if you're not going to produce anything credible to discredit my point, then don't bother quoting me.

Have you maybe considered, just for a moment, a fleeting thought, just a whim, a brain fart, that maybe, just maybe everyone else is right and you're full of ****. Contemplate it for a minute.

[Hibrandenburg]

I agree with you. It's the same impression I get from those who carry the "expat" label as well. I suppose the point I was trying to make (albiet not so well reading it back now) is that there are British people who live abroad who refuse to carry the expat label, accept that they are foreigners in another country and respect the culture of that country. They're distinctly less arrogant than those who carry around the "expat" badge.

What do these people call themselves? Expat is a word that describes someone of foreign residency, it's not a mindset.

[Lester B]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/is_scottish_water_going_to_engla

I'm sure there's people on here who would back you up anyway, even if they don't know themselves if it's true. Just to get one over on Fife-Hibee.

Did you genuinely, without irony, refer to yourself in the third person?


Time to give up. Beyond parody.

[Hibrandenburg]

Did you genuinely, without irony, refer to yourself in the third person?


Time to give up. Beyond parody.

One might do so to distance oneself from the rubbish one posts.

[lord bunberry]

I agree with you. It's the same impression I get from those who carry the "expat" label as well. I suppose the point I was trying to make (albiet not so well reading it back now) is that there are British people who live abroad who refuse to carry the expat label, accept that they are foreigners in another country and respect the culture of that country. They're distinctly less arrogant than those who carry around the "expat" badge.
What I’m talking about is people who leave this country and can’t wait to tell the folk still here how **** it is and how much better wherever they are now is so much better. Thousands of people leave this country, but there’s a good few who can’t wait to stick the boot in.
Im not happy with the current situation and I hope Scotland can get the hell out of this union, but folk bitching from the sidelines without offering support for the country they left gets right on my nerves. As I said earlier I don’t see much of that on this forum, I’m guessing a lot of that is that it’s a football forum and posters still have an interest in this country.

[McD]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/is_scottish_water_going_to_engla

I'm sure there's people on here who would back you up anyway, even if they don't know themselves if it's true. Just to get one over on Fife-Hibee.


Indeed, because it’s all about you

[Cataplana]

I'm pretty sure Bangkok Hibby correctly and humbly accepts himself as a foreigner.

An expat is a foreigner who is generally too arrogant (and usually racist) to accept that they are a foreigner in another country.

Source?

[Bangkok Hibby]

That’s nothing to do with the point I was making. My point wasn’t really directed at Bangkok hibby(although he did make the brain dead Brit comment) or any other ex pats on this forum. It was more from my experience of meeting them when on holiday.

Just a quick one with apologies to the OP for the direction this is going.
I'm glad your opinion wasn't directed at me because as I said you don't know me.
My "brain dead brits" comment referred to those you can see daily across social media on political topics. Many of those responses display a breathtaking lack of understanding of the real world the rest of us live in. This is self evident surely? There's nothing particularly British about this. I'm pretty sure forums about USA politics will have a lot more. So I'll repeat...the question was about British politics, we know these half-wits exist in large numbers, so maybe they, as a section of the British public should share the blame for where we are.
Please don't extrapolate this to "ex pat hates all Brits" because you would be very wrong.
Have a good day.

[Bristolhibby]

If our education standards are so good. Then why do we have people like Boris Johnson at the helm of our political pyramid?

Remember, he was put there by 100,000+ tories, many of whom will have been educated at establishments considered Britains best.

Cap doffing, inherited structure that the ruling classes do very well out of “conserving”.

“A posh sounding guy said it with confidence, so it must be true”.

J

[Cataplana]

Just a quick one with apologies to the OP for the direction this is going.
I'm glad your opinion wasn't directed at me because as I said you don't know me.
My "brain dead brits" comment referred to those you can see daily across social media on political topics. Many of those responses display a breathtaking lack of understanding of the real world the rest of us live in. This is self evident surely? There's nothing particularly British about this. I'm pretty sure forums about USA politics will have a lot more. So I'll repeat...the question was about British politics, we know these half-wits exist in large numbers, so maybe they, as a section of the British public should share the blame for where we are.
Please don't extrapolate this to "ex pat hates all Brits" because you would be very wrong.
Have a good day.

I always say the fact the English and Welsh did not have free secondary education until the 1950s explains a lot. They seem very easy to fool.

[ronaldo7]

I’m comparing our education standards with the rest throughout the world, it’s by no means the best, but it’s far from the worst. I stand by my ex pats opinion, calling people brain dead Brits or similar is common amongst ex pats for some reason.

I often wonder why folk from the UK are called ex pats when they've migrated/moved to another part of the world to live and work, and people coming to the UK are called migrants. It now seems to be the norm to be an ex pat if your from good old Blighty.

Those poor economic "migrants" from the EU don't stand a chance.

On the subject of the op. Two words, Cambridge analytica.

The system is bought.

[Future17]

That's not it at all. People say i'm wrong because they believe i'm wrong. Not because they've actually proven that i'm wrong with indisputable evidence. As long as there isn't indisputable evidence available, it's always open to opinion which is what I provide. Whether people agree with it or not.

Indisputable evidence like the dictionary definitions of words you claim mean something else, but fail to try and define? Or are you not prepared to accept that those who compile dictionaries are qualified to do so?


As we are now in a position where we have an unelected Etonian Prime Minister leading a party that required to bribe the DUP with £1bn in order to form a government, as the country heads into a Brexit situation which was decided on an almost 50/50 decision, and with demonstable lies having been told through the campaign. A position where a man who has twice lost jobs for dishonesty, has been involved in threats to journalist, is now the Prime Minister. Where politicians are no longer held to account (e.g. breaking the ministerial code and yet not resigning for it), and where the elite continue to run over the top of everyone else - have we hit a point where we can safely say that politics in Britain is broken beyond repair?

Even thinking about the European elections, we had the Brexit Party with NO policies getting voted in, and there's a good chance that should Bawjaws Johnston call a General Election, the Tories will cuddle up with the Brexit Party (still with no policies) to form a Government.

There is no accountability on the face of things now, we seem to be in a position where people can do whatever they want, shamelessly, and come out smelling of roses. We have a position where Nigal bloody Farage is influential somehow.

How do you even start fixing this situation?

I used to work for the Electoral Commission and, from that perspective, I believe there are many things about our system of electing governments which could work better.

I get the felling that the drive for increased franchise engagement over the past 5-10 years has been successful to an extent, as there does seem to be a new wave of people who engage with politics in a way they didn’t before. I think what may be imperfect about that engagement is that it seems, on the face of it at least, to be more or less single-issue engagement (i.e. Brexit, Scottish independence etc.) In my (albeit limited) experience, some people don’t engage beyond those topics or, if they do, they bring every discussion back to those topics as either the cause or solution to all other ills.

I’m not sure of the reasons for that but, in some ways, I think social media and the accessibility of information (both true and false) has been as much of a curse as it has been a blessing. Not all that long ago, people would form their political opinions based, at least partly, on discussions with family, friends, work colleagues etc. Nobody had Google or Twitter in their hand during those discussions, so most of the opinions presented were based on personal experience, or anecdotal evidence from other acquaintances. I think that perhaps created a situation in which people formed opinions and then chose political parties which best matched those opinions based on the long-standing policies presented by those parties.

In recent years, increased engagement seems to have led to a sizeable number of people joining political parties who would not have done so before. That, in turn, appears to have created a situation where the parties as entities are more beholden to single-issue lobbies than they were before. This seems to have happened in the Labour Party and, by proxy through UKIP and the Brexit Party, in the Conservatives as well.

I worry about this as, for the majority of people in the UK, the standard of living is comfortable. Whilst that it the case and big, single-issue lobbies are so prominent, I doubt many of those people approach elections with issues like health, education, poverty, full employment, the environment, foreign policy etc. as their priority.

[Northernhibee]

One positive thing about Brexit (if not the only positive thing) is how it's shown how incompetent our politicians are. There's always been an air of competence (they've gotten this far in life so they must know something) but it's shown how much your background matters in life; if you were born wealthy and had a private education you're more likely to end up a politician, company director etc. no matter how incompetent or stupid you actually are.

I truly hope that once things settle people begin to look for representatives who are there on merit and ability than anything else.

[Moulin Yarns]

I always say the fact the English and Welsh did not have free secondary education until the 1950s explains a lot. They seem very easy to fool.

That sounds like rubbish, have you a Source?

[makaveli1875]

I often wonder why folk from the UK are called ex pats when they've migrated/moved to another part of the world to live and work, and people coming to the UK are called migrants. It now seems to be the norm to be an ex pat if your from good old Blighty.

Those poor economic "migrants" from the EU don't stand a chance.

On the subject of the op. Two words, Cambridge analytica.

The system is bought.

Anyone who leaves their home country is an ex pat and when they arrive in a new country they become a migrant in their new country. Don't think the concept is exclusive to the uk

[marinello59]

Anyone who leaves their home country is an ex pat and when they arrive in a new country they become a migrant in their new country. Don't think the concept is exclusive to the uk

Aye, that’s about right. The term has been in common use as long as I can remember, I’m struggling to see why anyone would have a problem with it.

[ronaldo7]

Anyone who leaves their home country is an ex pat and when they arrive in a new country they become a migrant in their new country. Don't think the concept is exclusive to the uk

Seems simple doesn't it. I'm oft confused when the BBC are interviewing some bowling club captain on the Costa del sol about good old Blighty, and they introduce them as ex pats. Surely they've become migrants. 😊

No biggie about the term being used, it's the consistency I look for.

[Eaststand]

Why am I not surprised this thread has gone the way it has?

The sooner this part of the forum is closed for good the better.

Yep
This can be a very good forum with lots of well thought out posts from some excellent posters.

Isn't it sad that maybe 2 or 3 plums can bring any sensible posts to a sudden stop by posting absolute crap again and again :-(

GGTTH

[Bangkok Hibby]

Yep
This can be a very good forum with lots of well thought out posts from some excellent posters.

Isn't it sad that maybe 2 or 3 plums can bring any sensible posts to a sudden stop by posting absolute crap again and again :-(

GGTTH



This place is an absolute delight compared to the mind numbing pish on Twitter or Facebook. IF 2 or 3 plums as you call them are spoiling things for you then don't respond. That way you cut them out the conversation. I think there's a bandwagon starting to roll here which is a shame. As I said, compare this with a similar forum on Facebook to see what a decent forum this is.

[makaveli1875]

Seems simple doesn't it. I'm oft confused when the BBC are interviewing some bowling club captain on the Costa del sol about good old Blighty, and they introduce them as ex pats. Surely they've become migrants. 😊

No biggie about the term being used, it's the consistency I look for.

If they were being interviewed by a Spanish TV station they'd probably not introduce them as ex pats.

[ronaldo7]

If they were being interviewed by a Spanish TV station they'd probably not introduce them as ex pats.

It wouldn't be much of an interview from a Spanish perspective. 😊

Anyway back on topic. 😆

[Cataplana]

That sounds like rubbish, have you a Source?

I'm not your clerk, feel free to disprove it though.

OK, just this once - what am I like?

www.bbc.co.uk/schoolreport/25751787 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/schoolreport/25751787)

No need to thank me.

[Hibrandenburg]

Seems simple doesn't it. I'm oft confused when the BBC are interviewing some bowling club captain on the Costa del sol about good old Blighty, and they introduce them as ex pats. Surely they've become migrants. 😊

No biggie about the term being used, it's the consistency I look for.

In regards to my relationship to the UK I'm an expat, in my relationship to Germany I'm a migrant. It's not really that complicated.

If I moved back to the UK would I then become an exexpat? :confused:

[Haymaker]

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/is_scottish_water_going_to_engla

I'm sure there's people on here who would back you up anyway, even if they don't know themselves if it's true. Just to get one over on Fife-Hibee.

Not getting one over you, I have nothing against you as a poster, however I do know sylar, and he does have that PhD.

[Moulin Yarns]

I'm not your clerk, feel free to disprove it though.

OK, just this once - what am I like?

www.bbc.co.uk/schoolreport/25751787 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/schoolreport/25751787)

No need to thank me.

Never trust the BBC. FREE education was introduced in England in 1870, up to the age of 14. Someone needs to go back to school :greengrin.

http://www.spicker.uk/social-policy/education.htm

[Cataplana]

Never trust the BBC. FREE education was introduced in England in 1870, up to the age of 14. Someone needs to go back to school :greengrin.

Dear Sam Antics,

http://www.spicker.uk/social-policy/education.htm

How about The Guardian then?

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/apr/22/1944-education-act-butler-policy-today


Today we accept free primary and secondary education as a national birth-right. But pre-war, things were very different. Most pupils left school at 14. Butler's Act introduced compulsory education to 15, with a clause to raise it to 16; any fee-paying at state schools was forbidden; and church schools were brought into the national system.

Kind of like what was considered secondary education, when I was at school. But, if you left at the age of 14, I guess it would explain a lot.

I was hardly speaking rubbish, was I?

[ronaldo7]

In regards to my relationship to the UK I'm an expat, in my relationship to Germany I'm a migrant. It's not really that complicated.

If I moved back to the UK would I then become an exexpat? :confused:

You're an exnat.

Those from the middle east are pitta pats.

Back on track pat